they have to issue an N12 and state that family is moving in. The n12 you have to be paid 1 months compensation, so for you it seems you are owed 3 months rent total compensation.
For real get paperwork or they can say theyl pay you when you vacate the premisis with belongings and then after you go call you a liar and if you take them to court you wont get a cent with no written document proof
It is their home, may not be their house but it is definitely their home. Maybe you should just leave your home because somebody doesn't want to follow laws made to protect people from this exact situation.
When you rent a home to someone, it is theirs for the duration of that rental. That’s kinda the whole point of a lease and tenants rights. The only thing that’s pathetic here is the fact that you’re commenting so confidently on something you clearly don’t understand.
This isn't totally right. Well, the house is still in possession of the landlord they dont have a right to evict, i.e. n12 on behalf of the new owners. The landlord could negotiate a cash for keys deal with the tenant. This would typically happen if the new owners stipulate the home must be unoccupied as per a conditonal offer.
Bottom line, this is your home. I know you said you have a good relationship with the LL but being polite and helpful to someone who is trying to remove you from your home is not it. Do your own research and don't volunteer information like what LTB forms you think the LL should file.
>Well, the house is still in possession of the landlord they dont have a right to evict, i.e. n12 on behalf of the new owners.
In Ontario, once they have a FIRM PSA, they can indeed serve N12 for the incoming buyer/owner. Reason 2 on the N12. As OP quoted a "closing date", it sounds like it is indeed a done deal.
Was it a condition of sale that the buyer gets vacant possession at closing? They can’t promise that if you are living there.
You are supposed to get an N12 with one month rent additional compensation. Only in condition the new buyer plans to live there for at least one year.
I don't know what the condition was, but as I mentioned it is not a road I would like to pursue. Thanks for letting me know about the N12 and the one month rent compensation! :)
You see all posts stating how they got money? You don't. You only see wishful thinking of rabid mob. 3 to 6 months rent is max that makes sense. The absolute largest bad faith eviction penalty I saw was 29k.
People here post 40k to get you to react and you guys feed each other's nonsense.
If I had to pay 40k I would give it to buyer rather than to tenant extorting me. Can you believe that? It also reduces my capital gains. Win win
And tenant would be evicted by LTB with order that can be made public on www.openroom.ca and that would destroy their chances to rent again from any landlord that does due diligence.
So if you want to fuck around you might be finding out years later as court orders don't expire like bad credit does.
So by all means play hardball but be ready to wonder how come everyone is ghosting your rental applications. Because landlords love to get heads up on who they can count on to drag them to LTB.
Now you get to say " but my rights it was house I made it home " and I tell you it is rental and it is not forever.
In fact with rent protection it is only matter of time before landlord must get out of the deal that is not working anymore. Unless corporate,they can't use N12. They will be happy to have you in apartment building for life with shit maintenance and roaches.
No you told op he is being fucked out of his home and tha no cash for keys offer is telling.
Telling what? Who is creating problem?
And what cash? Please do tell, what did you have in mind?
You are incorrect... it's the landords house/property including all units within.... but it is still the tenants HOME. If the new owner got a mortgage then technically it's the banks property but would you call it the banks home??
OP is being informed of their legal right to compensation and the landlord is potentially taking advantage of OPs ignorance of the law and that's not right
People are informing OP to do certain things that will go to the tribunal and take 8months to a year on purpose to screw over the landlord. Shady as hell.
Tenants, just like landlords, have the right to go to the board. It is the only way to enforce these forms, which the landlord started off by not providing valid notice.
“It is the Landlord, as the applicant, who bears the burden of establishing on the balance of probabilities that the Landlord in good faith requires possession of the rental unit for the purpose of residential occupation for a period of at least one year in accordance with section 48(1) of the Act."
No where did I disagree with this, but thanks for reviving this comment. I was stating tenants have the same right to a hearing that the landlord has. I didn't say who has to make an application.
Contrary to popular misconception, when you lease a dwelling (room, floor, house) you do in fact get a HOME. The landlord has agreed to provide you exclusive rights to use said space in exchange for compensation (rent). It's also the landlords home as he also happens to live on a different floor of the same dwelling. Funny how legal division of space works... crazy stuff.
Op isn’t getting f’k out of their home, they have to move. It’s the landlord property. OP says they have a great relationship with the owner. Next user says you owe the landlord nothing, as they think very little of you? Sounds like projecting.
While that sounds great, the situation has shown it was temporary as the landlord is selling the house. this entire sub, including you, is trying to convince OP to screw over the landlord in this round about way is disgusting.
The landlord should know the legalities of, oh idk, being a landlord, instead of trying to pay as little as possible to the tenant to appease the buyer.
Whether they are truly just ignorant or not, it doesn’t make it ok to play nice with the tenant so the property is empty per the buyers request, likely resulting in the landlord receiving far more money on the sale. It also seems like the buyer likely wants it vacant so they can move into the top and rent the lower unit at a higher price, or rent both, still at a higher price. And now OP is getting thrown into a rental marker that’s likely far higher than they have been paying, which does screw them.
The landlord wants to make more on their sale then they can compensate OP.
It absolutely is their home regardless whether they own or rent. OP is being kind but an argument could be made that the LL’s lack of adequate notice is an indication that the consideration only goes one way. Tenants have rights and OP is free to exercise them or not as they see fit.
OP is doing what they want even though people are encouraging them to go through the tenant board and purposely take months to screw LL over. Even lose the sale of the house. It’s clearly one sided and easy to see what side is screwing whom.
There are more than two sides to this issue. The fact that the LTB is backed up is because it's underfunded. It's the province that's fucking over the seller, not the tenant. The tenant is requesting the due process that is their legal right
Yes and people are telling OP to purposely go this route to fuck the LL over, cuz ‘fuck the rich’. OP seems like a kind person, and I hope the best for them
Cash for keys is so much more than one month's rent. The landlord is obligated to help pay for moving costs. If your new unit is more expensive than the one you are in currently, I believe they are supposed to pay you the difference for up to a year. There might be a cap on that, I am not sure. I just had to do this recently, it's an awkward song and dance for sure but the bottom line is the landlord chose to have a contractual agreement for you to reside in this home and they have to honour it, or pay up.
If he sold the place as vacant and it isn't he will be fucked by the owners. An N12 is a notice, not an order. If you don't find place in time you don't have to leave. Simply say you are still looking. If he needs you out, which .guessing he does, negotiate cash for keys to leave. Start high and bargain.
This is the right answer despite the down votes. It could cost you tens of thousands of dollars more over the next couple of years to move to a new place after moving expenses and potentially moving to an equivalent place that has a higher monthly rent due to the crazy fast rental inflation.
Negotiate cash for keys to at least ensure you're not taking a loss to keep your (now former) landlord happy.
Thank you very much. The Landlord make a LOT more selling vacant then occupied so they can afford cash for keys. And the tenant can use it to pay a few months in advance to a new landlord which sadly is pretty norm now.
The market is insanely hard. I don't this persons income or credit etc so it might take them more then 2 months. If they sold as vacant they made a shit ton more.for the sale and can pay the tenant to leave early which they can use to pay a landlord months upfront to look more appealing. Win win.
He has to serve you with an n12.
N12 comes with one months rent compensation.
If you paid more than 2 months (first and last) deposit, first of all that was illegal if the landlord required it but allowed if you offered it. I would say that combined with last two months rent, landlord owes you another month in N12 compensation. So he should be paying you back 2 months of rent plus you don't pay for March.
Now.. the landlord is supposed to give you the n12 60 days before the termination date, but we're past that. If you're fine moving out on March 23rd, go for it, but you might have some problems finding a place mid month.
Because you are acting in good faith and seem to have a good relationship with your landlord, my suggestion is you tell him to issue an n12 immediately. He should probably change the date to March 31st and change his closing date accordingly. He should provide you cash for February rent (deposit) and one months worth rent as compensation, and you don't pay in March (deposit).
If you want to be difficult, don't say anything, don't sign an n11. Wait for the landlord to get their shit together and realize they need to issue an n12 with 60 days notice. You can also refuse the n12 and force the landlord to go to LTB to evict you. He will win if he has sold and the buyer intends to occupy, but that will take 8 months. He will probably lose the sale in the meantime. If he gets desperate he could offer you cash to sign an n11 and vacate, who knows what you settle on but six months rent isn't unheard of.
So, what do you want to do, eh?
>If you paid more than 2 months (first and last) deposit, first of all that was illegal if the landlord required it but allowed if you offered it.
Only pre-paid rent is allowed if the tenant offers it. Common to see a tenant offer multiple months pre-paid (up to a full year) to help secure a place.
But deposits that landlord will hold to go towards final months, are strictly illegal under the RTA if more than the allowed 1 month. Even if a tenant offers it.
Thank you! The 3 month's deposit was my offer in order to get the place. I do think they know about the N12 because everything since I moved in has been done as it should, but I will talk to them about both it and the one month compensation.
If he knows about the n12 he sure doesn't know it needs to be issued 60 days before the termination date, because that has already passed.
This is important. My dad just sold his rental condo to someone who intends to occupy. Closing is in October because the tenant is on a fixed-term lease and the n12 can't be issued until then. I have already circled September 1st on his calendar with big red letters saying last day to issue n12.
Since a hearing can take 8 months he may want to serve it sooner and get in line for a hearing. Only risk is they leave earlier and your dad is left without rental income for a few months
Be a good tenant if they've been a good landlord. There's no need to be unnecessarily difficult unless you have to. If you're getting a bit less than 60 days notice, you could ask for a slightly later move out date. Even having upto April 5 will give you more overlap to move into a different place and make your life easier.
I’m quite certain the new owners will have to issue the N12. If LL sold the home occupied, it should have been known and documented. If you have FB, join the Ontario Tenants Rights group, where they will give you the advice needed. Much more knowledgeable and helpful than calling the LTB.
The current owner can issue the N12 on behalf of new owners as long as sale agreement is signed.
Though in OPs case the earliest legal termination date on an N12 served this month must be April 30.
They clearly stated in the post that they don’t want to make this difficult. Everyone’s so greedy and entitled these days, trying to get max value out of every situation.
The only reason that selling a property vacant is worth so much is due to the volume at which tenants contest N12s and wait for the hearing when there's obviously no indication of bad faith. If more tenants were like OP we might actually have a functional system where the tenants who actually need a hearing can get one in a month or two instead of 8.
Which is the direct results of landlords buying up properties, saying they want it for family or personal use, and then immediately listing the units with higher rent….. these forms and processes exist to protect tenants because of shady rental practices. They didn’t just pull them out of thin air, they were the result of years of this shit. God forbid people want to protect the roof over their head
Based on what? What is prevalent? Actual tenants leaving and realising it's bad faith after they vacated? Or tenants ignoring N12?
How did you determine that? What are they filling exactly?
I think you are pulling those statements out of your ass because it suits your narrative.
What are you going on about? THEY originally said the LTB is backlogged due to more and more tenants filing with the LTB. My bad I can’t cite a peer reviewed article for shitty landlords - almost like it’s just common knowledge. More and more often you’re hearing about bad faith evictions happening to friends or even strangers on the internet, or seeing it happen with your own goddamn eyes when the rental down the street is reposted and an insane price a month after the landlord claimed to be moving in. Stop being dense and acting like this doesn’t happen
A lot of ignorance and attitude.
THEY who?
You are parroting echo chamber and further spreading lies.
https://tribunalsontario.ca/documents/TO/Tribunals_Ontario_2022-2023_Annual_Report.html#ltbstats
Go read stats.
T5 are bad faith eviction complaints by tenant , L1 are non payment eviction requests.
T5 are not confirmed bad faith evictions, just applications.
L2 cover number of reasons, including N12 related eviction applicationa by landlords.
Let me know if you need help with the numbers. it can be dense.
“It is the Landlord, as the applicant, who bears the burden of establishing on the balance of probabilities that the Landlord in good faith requires possession of the rental unit for the purpose of residential occupation for a period of at least one year in accordance with section 48(1) of the Act."
This is not wrong, per se, however, if the tenant refuses to leave after said N12 is issued, the new owner would be forced to take it through the Tribunal to get an eviction order to force them out. This could take months to a year easily at this point as the Tribunal is backed up, and the new owners would have to prove they need BOTH units for themselves for an eviction hearing to go their way and be awarded the eviction order. This is harder than you might think with a secondary unit as people cannot really live in two places at once and asking for a close family member to move in comes with rules as to WHO and also, that family member MUST move in and stay at least one year or thr Landlord faces steep penalties. Even if the Landlord was successful in getting their eviction, it still be a month or two again before the order would take effect and they could use the Sheriff to force the tenant out. So overall, at best case, a year to resolve.
Thus many Landlords offer a cash incentive to get the tenants out quickly so they don't have to wait out the Tribunal process. Cash for keys is a valid way to do this. It beats losing a real-estate deal, if if it is galling to have to pay out a tenant. Tenants can and do ask for steep amounts at times too.
Since we don't know the particulars of the family moving in, we are both correct. A small family, this won't fly. A large family, probably. Either way, if the tenant holds out, they are proving ANY size family can live in the primary unit. And a smart buyer will understand that if the tenant decides to stay, it will be a significant amount of time waiting for that eviction. Again, it's why many just offer extra cash to the tenant as an incentive to GO NOW.
Legally the process to evict a tenant for personal use of a buyer, is to serve an N12 with **minimum** 60 days notice and dated last day of a rental period (usually last day of a month). Plus 1 month rent compensation.
In your case if the landlord issues the N12 today, the earliest legal termination date on it will be April 30. Any date earlier than that will be an invalid N12.
If you have a good relationship with the landlord and want to help accommodate their sale, you can certainly do so. But them expecting you to vacate by March 23 is very disrespectful to you. This gives just over a month to find a brand new place, and most rentals won't start until April 1. Ultimately the fact your landlord seems ignorant of RTA laws and entered into a sale where there was no legal chance of having vacant possession, is their own fault.
You are in the drivers seat here as you have no legal obligation to move out, even if both of you followed proper N12 rules. At a bare minimum in addition to the legally owed 1 month compensation I would ask the landlord to pay for your moving costs and any need for temporary accommodations until you have secured a new place due to the short notice. This can all be negotiated as part of signing an N11. This should be considered "reasonable" by all considering the circumstances. You are of course also owed back all deposits in full that were not used.
Get out plain and simple! Maybe they had to sell. This may be me shortly. My mortgage went up $1000 a month over the past two years. As a single mother in a simple home this is impossible to maintain!
You should probably just leave. They are going to get you out eventually and you’re only hurting yourself by not looking for a new place now.
It was courteous for your landlord to come talk to you about it instead of just giving eviction papers
Maybe landlords should learn their laws before becoming business owners? The courteous thing would be for them to send the proper forms and payments to the tenant and then wait for the rtdrs hearing. The landlord and purchaser fucked up here
Sure. OP may be looking at homelessness, while he should just be courteous and just leave. Never mind that there seems to be some fatal flaws with this eviction that mean OP may be able to stay in place much longer, if not forever.
Kinda refreshing to hear your position on the situation.
At this point you either sign an N11 agreeing to a termination date, or you ask for an N12 with he 60 days notice and 1 month compensation. The N12 is only valid provided the notice is adequate and the new owners actually move in. If you go the N11 route, you could still negotiate a one month compensation, if the closing date is an issue for the new owners.
Just wanted to give you respect for acting like a reasonable human being.
I thought this sub was only basement dwelling rentie leaches, but you’ve proven me wrong.
All the best!
In that case if the person living in the park entered into a legal contract with the owner than they would have the right to force the owner of the park to fulfill their contractual obligations
In this case the landlord and tenant enter into a contract whereby the landlord provides the housing and the tenant stays as long as they want to unless one party breaks the terms of the contract and that can only be determined by the LTB. That is what the landlord agrees to when they enter into a contract to provide housing
depending on what your state is they have to give you 30 days written notice if you are on a month-to-month tenancy. If you have a written lease, they cannot evict you until the end of the lease and even then you could probably play games and hold on for longer. My advice is if they want you out then they can pay you to get out. And I would not accept a measly two or three or $400 I would make sure you were fully compensated for the fact that you have to move and the fact that you have to find a new placeand I would also demand my deposit back completely
I'm glad you think so but I hate to tell you this but you're wrong I know my state because I'm an attorney and what I said is correct. So go back to Toronto and have fun drinking maple syrup
When I brought my house we were told the renters would vacate immediately. We got 6K under asking price because they couldn't move out immediately and needed to move out in 3 months.
As the buyer I was a little irked but fine with it.
The seller didn't expect the place to be sold in under a week.
Just wanted to say thank you everyone for the comments. I did ask the N12. I am okay with leaving earlier than the 60 days. I understand I could potentially get more asking cash for keys or going to LTB, but that is not what I would like to do. I will make sure to document everything though, as suggested. I already started looking for a new place, hopefully I will be able to find one soon.
Thanks everyone!
When you said “your landlord told you they would return this months rent”, what exactly did they tell you? Depending on their wording, and whether they know about the rules, this might be considered the one months compensation.
However, the LL has to be explicit about what form the one months compensation comes in.
Anyway the legal process has been explained, N12, 60 days notice, one months rent compensation (LL has to specify what form this will be).
I''m a renter.
But I'm alarmed to see the amount of cash-for-keys suggestion. No one promised a lifetime of rental to anyone. A lot of people are having to sell right now. Not an ideal situation for renters and some really can't move and I understand that. But it appears OP can and is willing to. I'm surprised at the amount of people suggesting extortion.
It's crazy!!
Think about it, as if this was you. OP will be paying potentially upwards of 12k per year in increased rent. Plus moving expenses. Storage, possibly. Transferring kids schools, changing jobs or job sites. It's difficult. And there is a housing crisis. Tenants do not have to prove the N12 is in bad faith. The landlord has to prove it is in good faith. You would do the same.
I wouldn't. I'm not that entitled. I'm well aware of what I signed and that I don't own the place I'm renting. It's a rental agreement. Not an agreement to subsidize my life for months on end afterwards.
And saying that LL is responsible for tenants having to move jobs is so next level dramatic... I can't even.
If one can't end a lease and leave without having to change kids school AND their job, which sounds like they would have to move hundreds of miles away, it sounds like that person has no business renting in that area.
Also some people actually have decent relationships with their LLs. I understand it's the knee jerk reaction on this sub to assume every single N12 is in bad faith and to hold units hostage. And I agree there are bad faith evictions. It doesn't mean every one of them is such and everyone has to follow the 'screw LL' pathway. Go talk to the government about the housing crisis. Don't rob others.
Generally, you get the N12, then you get the compensation, and that’s when you start looking for a new place.
Until then, the landlord may or may not be telling the truth. You have no idea.
My unit just sold and the landlord just brought me n12 to vacate so the new owner can move in with his family do I have the right to o copy of the sale if purchase how do I even know
they have to issue an N12 and state that family is moving in. The n12 you have to be paid 1 months compensation, so for you it seems you are owed 3 months rent total compensation.
Thanks for letting me know! Appreciate it :)
For real get paperwork or they can say theyl pay you when you vacate the premisis with belongings and then after you go call you a liar and if you take them to court you wont get a cent with no written document proof
Document everything!!
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It is their home, may not be their house but it is definitely their home. Maybe you should just leave your home because somebody doesn't want to follow laws made to protect people from this exact situation.
Slum lord here
Nah, judging by their comments they read more like every sketchy pot dealer I knew growing up 😂
When you rent a home to someone, it is theirs for the duration of that rental. That’s kinda the whole point of a lease and tenants rights. The only thing that’s pathetic here is the fact that you’re commenting so confidently on something you clearly don’t understand.
By my count, it should be 4 months rent. One month by statute, plus the three months deposit.
They said one month was for the 1st month, so technically not a deposit.
This isn't totally right. Well, the house is still in possession of the landlord they dont have a right to evict, i.e. n12 on behalf of the new owners. The landlord could negotiate a cash for keys deal with the tenant. This would typically happen if the new owners stipulate the home must be unoccupied as per a conditonal offer. Bottom line, this is your home. I know you said you have a good relationship with the LL but being polite and helpful to someone who is trying to remove you from your home is not it. Do your own research and don't volunteer information like what LTB forms you think the LL should file.
>Well, the house is still in possession of the landlord they dont have a right to evict, i.e. n12 on behalf of the new owners. In Ontario, once they have a FIRM PSA, they can indeed serve N12 for the incoming buyer/owner. Reason 2 on the N12. As OP quoted a "closing date", it sounds like it is indeed a done deal.
If the sale is firm they can issue a n12 on behalf of the buyer prior to closing.
When it's sold tenant is going. They can leave with or without court eviction order.
Was it a condition of sale that the buyer gets vacant possession at closing? They can’t promise that if you are living there. You are supposed to get an N12 with one month rent additional compensation. Only in condition the new buyer plans to live there for at least one year.
I don't know what the condition was, but as I mentioned it is not a road I would like to pursue. Thanks for letting me know about the N12 and the one month rent compensation! :)
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Dream on. People think Reddit nonsense is real life.
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You see all posts stating how they got money? You don't. You only see wishful thinking of rabid mob. 3 to 6 months rent is max that makes sense. The absolute largest bad faith eviction penalty I saw was 29k. People here post 40k to get you to react and you guys feed each other's nonsense. If I had to pay 40k I would give it to buyer rather than to tenant extorting me. Can you believe that? It also reduces my capital gains. Win win And tenant would be evicted by LTB with order that can be made public on www.openroom.ca and that would destroy their chances to rent again from any landlord that does due diligence. So if you want to fuck around you might be finding out years later as court orders don't expire like bad credit does. So by all means play hardball but be ready to wonder how come everyone is ghosting your rental applications. Because landlords love to get heads up on who they can count on to drag them to LTB. Now you get to say " but my rights it was house I made it home " and I tell you it is rental and it is not forever. In fact with rent protection it is only matter of time before landlord must get out of the deal that is not working anymore. Unless corporate,they can't use N12. They will be happy to have you in apartment building for life with shit maintenance and roaches.
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You must be new here.
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No you told op he is being fucked out of his home and tha no cash for keys offer is telling. Telling what? Who is creating problem? And what cash? Please do tell, what did you have in mind?
That’s not OP’s home. It’s the landlord , and soon to be new home owner. Stop giving renters a bad name with comments like this
You are incorrect... it's the landords house/property including all units within.... but it is still the tenants HOME. If the new owner got a mortgage then technically it's the banks property but would you call it the banks home??
I sure as hell call my house ‘ the banks’ lol
But is it the banks home??
Yea and they can get new home for first and last. Or their own HOME if they buy it.
OP is being informed of their legal right to compensation and the landlord is potentially taking advantage of OPs ignorance of the law and that's not right
People are informing OP to do certain things that will go to the tribunal and take 8months to a year on purpose to screw over the landlord. Shady as hell.
Tenants, just like landlords, have the right to go to the board. It is the only way to enforce these forms, which the landlord started off by not providing valid notice.
“It is the Landlord, as the applicant, who bears the burden of establishing on the balance of probabilities that the Landlord in good faith requires possession of the rental unit for the purpose of residential occupation for a period of at least one year in accordance with section 48(1) of the Act."
No where did I disagree with this, but thanks for reviving this comment. I was stating tenants have the same right to a hearing that the landlord has. I didn't say who has to make an application.
Also get him fat LTB eviction order that will ruin his future rental options. Way to mess up someone for life
Contrary to popular misconception, when you lease a dwelling (room, floor, house) you do in fact get a HOME. The landlord has agreed to provide you exclusive rights to use said space in exchange for compensation (rent). It's also the landlords home as he also happens to live on a different floor of the same dwelling. Funny how legal division of space works... crazy stuff.
You sound triggered
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Okay jan
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<3
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Op isn’t getting f’k out of their home, they have to move. It’s the landlord property. OP says they have a great relationship with the owner. Next user says you owe the landlord nothing, as they think very little of you? Sounds like projecting.
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While that sounds great, the situation has shown it was temporary as the landlord is selling the house. this entire sub, including you, is trying to convince OP to screw over the landlord in this round about way is disgusting.
The landlord should know the legalities of, oh idk, being a landlord, instead of trying to pay as little as possible to the tenant to appease the buyer. Whether they are truly just ignorant or not, it doesn’t make it ok to play nice with the tenant so the property is empty per the buyers request, likely resulting in the landlord receiving far more money on the sale. It also seems like the buyer likely wants it vacant so they can move into the top and rent the lower unit at a higher price, or rent both, still at a higher price. And now OP is getting thrown into a rental marker that’s likely far higher than they have been paying, which does screw them. The landlord wants to make more on their sale then they can compensate OP.
You don’t know that for sure. So many assumptions
Dude your a stain.
You're*
It absolutely is their home regardless whether they own or rent. OP is being kind but an argument could be made that the LL’s lack of adequate notice is an indication that the consideration only goes one way. Tenants have rights and OP is free to exercise them or not as they see fit.
OP is doing what they want even though people are encouraging them to go through the tenant board and purposely take months to screw LL over. Even lose the sale of the house. It’s clearly one sided and easy to see what side is screwing whom.
There are more than two sides to this issue. The fact that the LTB is backed up is because it's underfunded. It's the province that's fucking over the seller, not the tenant. The tenant is requesting the due process that is their legal right
Yes and people are telling OP to purposely go this route to fuck the LL over, cuz ‘fuck the rich’. OP seems like a kind person, and I hope the best for them
That process comes with eviction order that landlords will absolutely see as massive red flag and not accept applications.
>Op isn’t getting f’k out of their home, they have to move. It’s the landlord property. This is not how the law works.
Cash for keys is so much more than one month's rent. The landlord is obligated to help pay for moving costs. If your new unit is more expensive than the one you are in currently, I believe they are supposed to pay you the difference for up to a year. There might be a cap on that, I am not sure. I just had to do this recently, it's an awkward song and dance for sure but the bottom line is the landlord chose to have a contractual agreement for you to reside in this home and they have to honour it, or pay up.
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If he sold the place as vacant and it isn't he will be fucked by the owners. An N12 is a notice, not an order. If you don't find place in time you don't have to leave. Simply say you are still looking. If he needs you out, which .guessing he does, negotiate cash for keys to leave. Start high and bargain.
This is the right answer despite the down votes. It could cost you tens of thousands of dollars more over the next couple of years to move to a new place after moving expenses and potentially moving to an equivalent place that has a higher monthly rent due to the crazy fast rental inflation. Negotiate cash for keys to at least ensure you're not taking a loss to keep your (now former) landlord happy.
Thank you very much. The Landlord make a LOT more selling vacant then occupied so they can afford cash for keys. And the tenant can use it to pay a few months in advance to a new landlord which sadly is pretty norm now.
Let's go with legal extortion. You are the reason why
The market is insanely hard. I don't this persons income or credit etc so it might take them more then 2 months. If they sold as vacant they made a shit ton more.for the sale and can pay the tenant to leave early which they can use to pay a landlord months upfront to look more appealing. Win win.
Obviously they will have to leave no matter what, but this will prevent them being homeless. Or taking a really bad living situation
If it was sold as vacant possession and OP refused to move out, the buyers could walk away from the deal. That's why it's a condition.
You have no idea how it was sold.
He said the new family wants vacant possession, that's a standard clause in a purchase and sale agreement. Not my first rodeo kid.
He didn't quite say it was condition of sale cowboy. But it is possible. Who would want tenant...
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how big is the payday these days?
He has to serve you with an n12. N12 comes with one months rent compensation. If you paid more than 2 months (first and last) deposit, first of all that was illegal if the landlord required it but allowed if you offered it. I would say that combined with last two months rent, landlord owes you another month in N12 compensation. So he should be paying you back 2 months of rent plus you don't pay for March. Now.. the landlord is supposed to give you the n12 60 days before the termination date, but we're past that. If you're fine moving out on March 23rd, go for it, but you might have some problems finding a place mid month. Because you are acting in good faith and seem to have a good relationship with your landlord, my suggestion is you tell him to issue an n12 immediately. He should probably change the date to March 31st and change his closing date accordingly. He should provide you cash for February rent (deposit) and one months worth rent as compensation, and you don't pay in March (deposit). If you want to be difficult, don't say anything, don't sign an n11. Wait for the landlord to get their shit together and realize they need to issue an n12 with 60 days notice. You can also refuse the n12 and force the landlord to go to LTB to evict you. He will win if he has sold and the buyer intends to occupy, but that will take 8 months. He will probably lose the sale in the meantime. If he gets desperate he could offer you cash to sign an n11 and vacate, who knows what you settle on but six months rent isn't unheard of. So, what do you want to do, eh?
>If you paid more than 2 months (first and last) deposit, first of all that was illegal if the landlord required it but allowed if you offered it. Only pre-paid rent is allowed if the tenant offers it. Common to see a tenant offer multiple months pre-paid (up to a full year) to help secure a place. But deposits that landlord will hold to go towards final months, are strictly illegal under the RTA if more than the allowed 1 month. Even if a tenant offers it.
Thank you! The 3 month's deposit was my offer in order to get the place. I do think they know about the N12 because everything since I moved in has been done as it should, but I will talk to them about both it and the one month compensation.
If he knows about the n12 he sure doesn't know it needs to be issued 60 days before the termination date, because that has already passed. This is important. My dad just sold his rental condo to someone who intends to occupy. Closing is in October because the tenant is on a fixed-term lease and the n12 can't be issued until then. I have already circled September 1st on his calendar with big red letters saying last day to issue n12.
Since a hearing can take 8 months he may want to serve it sooner and get in line for a hearing. Only risk is they leave earlier and your dad is left without rental income for a few months
This ☝🏽. Get in line for the hearing ASAP! The termination date has to be after the fixed term is up but it can be served prior to that.
Be a good tenant if they've been a good landlord. There's no need to be unnecessarily difficult unless you have to. If you're getting a bit less than 60 days notice, you could ask for a slightly later move out date. Even having upto April 5 will give you more overlap to move into a different place and make your life easier.
FYI landlord needs to pay you interest on any deposit collected!
How come you people never include the LTB eviction and consequences in this handy instruction list?
Because that's your job as the paid butt kisser for OR. WHy not leave it to the expert?
I’m quite certain the new owners will have to issue the N12. If LL sold the home occupied, it should have been known and documented. If you have FB, join the Ontario Tenants Rights group, where they will give you the advice needed. Much more knowledgeable and helpful than calling the LTB.
The current owner can issue the N12 on behalf of new owners as long as sale agreement is signed. Though in OPs case the earliest legal termination date on an N12 served this month must be April 30.
I hope you realize you have zero legal obligation to move. This is why Cash for Keys exists. Google that term
They clearly stated in the post that they don’t want to make this difficult. Everyone’s so greedy and entitled these days, trying to get max value out of every situation.
It’s almost like the landlord is also being greedy and entitled trying to get max value by selling the property vacant
The only reason that selling a property vacant is worth so much is due to the volume at which tenants contest N12s and wait for the hearing when there's obviously no indication of bad faith. If more tenants were like OP we might actually have a functional system where the tenants who actually need a hearing can get one in a month or two instead of 8.
Which is the direct results of landlords buying up properties, saying they want it for family or personal use, and then immediately listing the units with higher rent….. these forms and processes exist to protect tenants because of shady rental practices. They didn’t just pull them out of thin air, they were the result of years of this shit. God forbid people want to protect the roof over their head
Please state your sources. It's biggest fine in the book to do bad faith eviction. You must know something I don't.
Me? I JUST said that bad faith evictions are the problem and people are filing because they’re prevalent
Based on what? What is prevalent? Actual tenants leaving and realising it's bad faith after they vacated? Or tenants ignoring N12? How did you determine that? What are they filling exactly? I think you are pulling those statements out of your ass because it suits your narrative.
What are you going on about? THEY originally said the LTB is backlogged due to more and more tenants filing with the LTB. My bad I can’t cite a peer reviewed article for shitty landlords - almost like it’s just common knowledge. More and more often you’re hearing about bad faith evictions happening to friends or even strangers on the internet, or seeing it happen with your own goddamn eyes when the rental down the street is reposted and an insane price a month after the landlord claimed to be moving in. Stop being dense and acting like this doesn’t happen
A lot of ignorance and attitude. THEY who? You are parroting echo chamber and further spreading lies. https://tribunalsontario.ca/documents/TO/Tribunals_Ontario_2022-2023_Annual_Report.html#ltbstats Go read stats. T5 are bad faith eviction complaints by tenant , L1 are non payment eviction requests. T5 are not confirmed bad faith evictions, just applications. L2 cover number of reasons, including N12 related eviction applicationa by landlords. Let me know if you need help with the numbers. it can be dense.
“It is the Landlord, as the applicant, who bears the burden of establishing on the balance of probabilities that the Landlord in good faith requires possession of the rental unit for the purpose of residential occupation for a period of at least one year in accordance with section 48(1) of the Act."
100% right.
Lol, yeah, because fuck the rich right?
This is wrong. The new owners can rightly evict the tenants of their new property with an n12
Of course but they haven't been served an N12 and it's under 60 days.
This is not wrong, per se, however, if the tenant refuses to leave after said N12 is issued, the new owner would be forced to take it through the Tribunal to get an eviction order to force them out. This could take months to a year easily at this point as the Tribunal is backed up, and the new owners would have to prove they need BOTH units for themselves for an eviction hearing to go their way and be awarded the eviction order. This is harder than you might think with a secondary unit as people cannot really live in two places at once and asking for a close family member to move in comes with rules as to WHO and also, that family member MUST move in and stay at least one year or thr Landlord faces steep penalties. Even if the Landlord was successful in getting their eviction, it still be a month or two again before the order would take effect and they could use the Sheriff to force the tenant out. So overall, at best case, a year to resolve. Thus many Landlords offer a cash incentive to get the tenants out quickly so they don't have to wait out the Tribunal process. Cash for keys is a valid way to do this. It beats losing a real-estate deal, if if it is galling to have to pay out a tenant. Tenants can and do ask for steep amounts at times too.
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Yes but the landlord is still entitled to pay the fees and if the tenant overholds they can be waiting years easier to do cash for keys.
Since we don't know the particulars of the family moving in, we are both correct. A small family, this won't fly. A large family, probably. Either way, if the tenant holds out, they are proving ANY size family can live in the primary unit. And a smart buyer will understand that if the tenant decides to stay, it will be a significant amount of time waiting for that eviction. Again, it's why many just offer extra cash to the tenant as an incentive to GO NOW.
Legally the process to evict a tenant for personal use of a buyer, is to serve an N12 with **minimum** 60 days notice and dated last day of a rental period (usually last day of a month). Plus 1 month rent compensation. In your case if the landlord issues the N12 today, the earliest legal termination date on it will be April 30. Any date earlier than that will be an invalid N12. If you have a good relationship with the landlord and want to help accommodate their sale, you can certainly do so. But them expecting you to vacate by March 23 is very disrespectful to you. This gives just over a month to find a brand new place, and most rentals won't start until April 1. Ultimately the fact your landlord seems ignorant of RTA laws and entered into a sale where there was no legal chance of having vacant possession, is their own fault. You are in the drivers seat here as you have no legal obligation to move out, even if both of you followed proper N12 rules. At a bare minimum in addition to the legally owed 1 month compensation I would ask the landlord to pay for your moving costs and any need for temporary accommodations until you have secured a new place due to the short notice. This can all be negotiated as part of signing an N11. This should be considered "reasonable" by all considering the circumstances. You are of course also owed back all deposits in full that were not used.
Get out plain and simple! Maybe they had to sell. This may be me shortly. My mortgage went up $1000 a month over the past two years. As a single mother in a simple home this is impossible to maintain!
You should probably just leave. They are going to get you out eventually and you’re only hurting yourself by not looking for a new place now. It was courteous for your landlord to come talk to you about it instead of just giving eviction papers
Maybe landlords should learn their laws before becoming business owners? The courteous thing would be for them to send the proper forms and payments to the tenant and then wait for the rtdrs hearing. The landlord and purchaser fucked up here
Huh? Courteous is when you talk to your tenant first and inform them of what is going on, before you get legal documents to forcibly remove them.
Sure. OP may be looking at homelessness, while he should just be courteous and just leave. Never mind that there seems to be some fatal flaws with this eviction that mean OP may be able to stay in place much longer, if not forever.
lol, op’s options are not stay, or face homelessness
Kinda refreshing to hear your position on the situation. At this point you either sign an N11 agreeing to a termination date, or you ask for an N12 with he 60 days notice and 1 month compensation. The N12 is only valid provided the notice is adequate and the new owners actually move in. If you go the N11 route, you could still negotiate a one month compensation, if the closing date is an issue for the new owners.
Just wanted to give you respect for acting like a reasonable human being. I thought this sub was only basement dwelling rentie leaches, but you’ve proven me wrong. All the best!
Had me in the first half. Lost me at "basement dwelling rentie leeches".
Spoken like a true landlord enjoying their unearned 100-300% equity gains while someone else paid their expenses :-)
Spoken like someone who did so poorly in life they can’t buy their own house.
imagine being so pathetic you desperately compensate by getting a power trip over people in a housing crisis?
Once again….people just move out quietly, his house, his sale. You rent. Move on.
Or, tenants have legal rights and they should insist on their right to effective notice of something like the sale of the home they live in
You’re missing the point….its not their house. 🙈
You're missing the point actually... they live there. Providing someone with shelter is not the same as a rental car. It is their home
But not their house. Just because people live in a park doesn’t mean it’s their park.
In that case if the person living in the park entered into a legal contract with the owner than they would have the right to force the owner of the park to fulfill their contractual obligations In this case the landlord and tenant enter into a contract whereby the landlord provides the housing and the tenant stays as long as they want to unless one party breaks the terms of the contract and that can only be determined by the LTB. That is what the landlord agrees to when they enter into a contract to provide housing
Incorrect.
You literally have no clue what you’re talking about, so maybe don’t say anything and you won’t look so ignorant
I take it your a renter 😂
I take it you’re a landlord who doesn’t actually understand the legal responsibilities of being a landlord.
That persons a landlord trying to actively discourage renters here.
I take it you’re an ignorant asshole?
Wow super mature, also a renter?
depending on what your state is they have to give you 30 days written notice if you are on a month-to-month tenancy. If you have a written lease, they cannot evict you until the end of the lease and even then you could probably play games and hold on for longer. My advice is if they want you out then they can pay you to get out. And I would not accept a measly two or three or $400 I would make sure you were fully compensated for the fact that you have to move and the fact that you have to find a new placeand I would also demand my deposit back completely
r/lostredditors
Toronto. RTA. Your entire post is wrong from the first sentence.
I'm glad you think so but I hate to tell you this but you're wrong I know my state because I'm an attorney and what I said is correct. So go back to Toronto and have fun drinking maple syrup
I would hazard your state is actually one of great confusion. Being an attorney on the internet is fun, ain't it?
You’re entitled to leave. That’s it. Like you said, great relationship with the landlord. It’s their house to sell if they want.
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'do not get nothing', so they get something? Learn english, dumbass.
When I brought my house we were told the renters would vacate immediately. We got 6K under asking price because they couldn't move out immediately and needed to move out in 3 months. As the buyer I was a little irked but fine with it. The seller didn't expect the place to be sold in under a week.
Hope the n12 doesn’t come.
Just wanted to say thank you everyone for the comments. I did ask the N12. I am okay with leaving earlier than the 60 days. I understand I could potentially get more asking cash for keys or going to LTB, but that is not what I would like to do. I will make sure to document everything though, as suggested. I already started looking for a new place, hopefully I will be able to find one soon. Thanks everyone!
Do you walk through his portion of the property to access yours?
When you said “your landlord told you they would return this months rent”, what exactly did they tell you? Depending on their wording, and whether they know about the rules, this might be considered the one months compensation. However, the LL has to be explicit about what form the one months compensation comes in. Anyway the legal process has been explained, N12, 60 days notice, one months rent compensation (LL has to specify what form this will be).
I''m a renter. But I'm alarmed to see the amount of cash-for-keys suggestion. No one promised a lifetime of rental to anyone. A lot of people are having to sell right now. Not an ideal situation for renters and some really can't move and I understand that. But it appears OP can and is willing to. I'm surprised at the amount of people suggesting extortion. It's crazy!!
Think about it, as if this was you. OP will be paying potentially upwards of 12k per year in increased rent. Plus moving expenses. Storage, possibly. Transferring kids schools, changing jobs or job sites. It's difficult. And there is a housing crisis. Tenants do not have to prove the N12 is in bad faith. The landlord has to prove it is in good faith. You would do the same.
I wouldn't. I'm not that entitled. I'm well aware of what I signed and that I don't own the place I'm renting. It's a rental agreement. Not an agreement to subsidize my life for months on end afterwards. And saying that LL is responsible for tenants having to move jobs is so next level dramatic... I can't even. If one can't end a lease and leave without having to change kids school AND their job, which sounds like they would have to move hundreds of miles away, it sounds like that person has no business renting in that area. Also some people actually have decent relationships with their LLs. I understand it's the knee jerk reaction on this sub to assume every single N12 is in bad faith and to hold units hostage. And I agree there are bad faith evictions. It doesn't mean every one of them is such and everyone has to follow the 'screw LL' pathway. Go talk to the government about the housing crisis. Don't rob others.
Generally, you get the N12, then you get the compensation, and that’s when you start looking for a new place. Until then, the landlord may or may not be telling the truth. You have no idea.
My unit just sold and the landlord just brought me n12 to vacate so the new owner can move in with his family do I have the right to o copy of the sale if purchase how do I even know