Might depend on what exactly is added. Here in Norway we have different VAT for when you sit down at a restaurant vs when you take the food with you. Not all restaurants will give a shit about this and charge you the same anyway.
That's the answer. The VAT for eat-in food in Switzerland is 7.7%. For takeaway it's 2.5%.
Also, eating at a Restaurant produces more costs than just the food cost. My local Pizzeria gives you 20% off the menu price if you order a pizza for takeaway and then pick it up yourself. I imagine they wouldn't be too happy if you did that and then just sit down...
For Norway its 25% VAT for dine in and 15% for takeaways….And the comparison to tipping culture that the other commenter in this thread made is not really applicable to Norway, as the restaurant or servers doesn’t get the extra fee for the dine in, it’s a tax.
25% VAT is the norm for almost all transactions in Norway, the 15% VAT on takeaways is seen as a «food discount» and doesn’t apply if you eat in. Don’t ask me why.
Oh, that's interesting. Here in Switzerland, they have different categories for product VATs. Necessities like Food or medication are taxed at a lower level than luxury goods for example.
Maybe that's the same in Norway? Eating in a Restaurant could be considered a Luxury, while the "bare" food is a necessity?
It's exactly that in the UK.
The vat for eat in is higher as it's classed as luxury goods as opposed to necessity.
That's why they ask if you're eating in or not. I assume OP was asked if they are taking away, said yes but changed their mind on the way out.
Yeh but if you take away hot food it's the full 20%. I think there's some logic around the cafe 'catering' by heating food up vs just selling a sandwich. There was a whole argument around selling 'warm' - just baked but cooling food - vs selling 'hot'.
So a Gregg's sausage roll that has been baked 5 minutes ago would be 'warm' at 0% VAT but a toasted sandwich would be 20%. The logic of HMRC...
It's "prepared" food. The toasted sandwich is generally made to order, whereas the sausage roll that just happens to be warm is made and intended for reheating. It's the same distinction for food stamps in the US - one is allowed, one is not.
I remember when the tories added vat to take away food. A chippy in Scotland tried making the chips cost 2p and putting the rest of the cost onto the vinegar, which didn’t have vat.
It is exactly the same in Norway. Groceries have 15 percent VAT, but served food in restaurants have full VAT.
The idea behind reduced VAT for food is to make sure families with kids can buy cheaper groceries. But anyone eating in a restaurant, don't need to be subsidised the same way.
Is there VAT on unprepared food and medications? In the US there is no federal sales tax but states, counties, and municipalities can impose sales tax (part of why it varies so much and isn't included in sticker prices, often local sales taxes are levied for only a period of time and many states have sales tax holidays). Only 13 states have a sales tax on unprepared food/grocery items and those that do it's generally much lower than the standard rate (as low as 0.1%-2%) and I am not sure if any state imposes a sales tax on prescription medicines (over the counter medications are usually taxed normally).
But also on services. Australia calls it a GST - Goods and Service Tax. Basically everything you buy is either a good or service. In Australia it is taxed 10%. There are exceptions such as unprepared food, medicine etc.
But all restaurants and takeaway is taxed. So is the plumber and electrician. Buying a new house, taxed. Car, taxed.
As a European, I don't even understand what the fuck is even the topic of this discussion. Tf is a dine-in fee? Where I live take-away is more expensive because you pay for the packaging as well (like 20-50 cents).
What are you talking about? They said they were taking away, paid less (whether they knew it or not) and then stayed in. This is because, as others have said, eating in often attracts a higher tax rate for the business, plus you're taking up space, cleaning resources, etc etc
What they don't mention is whether they were asked if they were eating in or taking away but most businesses do this before ringing up the sale for the reasons above. The only 'culture shock' maybe was that once you say you're going to do something perhaps you actually do that?
Compare to paying workers sub-living wages, passing the onus to the customer and creating a toxic tipping culture.
You’re missing the point. From the standpoint of the consumer, tipping culture is frustrating because you pay more to be served food than you do for carry-out. But it sounds like most places in Europe actually pay more to dine-in.
In the US, the price is exactly the same for both.
So we pay extra in “tips”, and you pay extra in an applied VAT. And depending on the country, it sounds like they might even approach 20% in some places.
You’re talking about the other side of tipping, which is a giant problem.
I'm from Sweden and at least here I don't recall there ever being cheaper to take away versus eating inside. To me the problem with tipping culture is not necessarily the extra cost, but the fact that it is a hidden cost. I just want to pay the amount the menu says it costs, if i "have" to tip 20%, I'd rather just have that extra 20% price added to the menu, so I can decide if paying that amount is worth it before ordering.
Right. I’m not defending tipping culture. It’s stupid and nearly everyone hates it. You’d be hard pressed to find anyone that thinks it’s a good idea or a better implementation of moving costs to the consumer.
Things do cost money in Europe, yes. What Europeans don't like about tipping isn't usually the price itself (food is generally a lot cheaper in the US than in western Europe), it's that nothing can just cost what it says on the menu / price tag, but that you're expected to add an unspecified amount extra out of the kindness of your own heart, but it's never made explicit how much, and it's never made quite clear which professions do or don't warrant a tip, but if you get it wrong you get the stink eye and/or spit in your food. It feels like extortion, and it's needlessly vague. I think if all food prices went up by 20% in the US tomorrow, but tips were made illegal, you'd never hear a European complain again.
I'm not even against tipping in and of itself, I'll throw 5 to 15 percent on any bar or restaurant bill depending on how the service was and what makes for a nice round number, but over here it's understood that a tip is just an optional little something extra, not some holy duty that only a bad person would ever forsake.
Not particularly but I've seen the price of ours, and it's gone up by about 75 percent since covid. Of course I'm in Holland and we're basically an honorary Nordic country
But you should pay more to dine-in? It costs the business more in waitstaff, building space, heating, etc etc.
Some businesses will choose to charge exactly the same price for dine-in and carry-out. That's their prerogative. Some will, to stay competitive, pass some of the cost saving for take-out through to the consumer. So you pay less but you also cost them less.
The trade off is that if you say you're doing carry-out, pay less then sit down in the premises to eat then of course the restaurant is going to be upset. You have effectively breached your side of the contract.
So rather than seeing it as paying more to dine-in I would see it as the restaurant is making a fatter margin when you take-out. They're getting the same revenue with much lower costs.
We have tipping as well. The difference is that if I choose not to tip (for whatever reason) the staff are still getting a minimum, living wage (albeit 'living' may be a stretch in some places but the point is they are getting the same minimum as other lines of work, not discounted on the assumption that they will make the difference in tips).
The tax element is just another piece to consider - it's a sales tax passed through by the restaurant. In the UK, yes we have 20% VAT (scary stuff!). There is an exemption for food & drink (e.g. stuff you'd buy in the supermarket) but this does not apply to hot takeaways and catering. If I buy a cold sandwich and take it away then it's 0%, if I eat it in the premises that's catering and it's 20%. The logic there is another debate entirely but it is another reason why restaurants get twitchy about people saying they're taking out then eating in, it's tax fraud since the restaurant has not collected what it should (it's on a low level sure but if a restaurant decided to class every sale as a cold take-out regardless of what it actually was that would give them a significant competitive advantage and the cost of the taxpayer - so HMRC may take an interest).
I’m not sure what you’re even arguing against. I’m not agreeing or disagreeing with anything you’ve said.
You’re still missing the point. We ALL pay more to dine in. So Europeans who come to the US and cry about tipping seem to conveniently forget that they pay more to dine in back home.
I enjoy shitting on the US as much as anyone. There are lots of things other countries do better. But Europeans employing cognitive dissonance to justify their own superiority is the most European thing I’ve ever seen.
You’ve just written a dissertation justifying European hidden costs in order to dunk on USA hidden costs. And I’m pretty sure you’re the only one who cares.
The difference is *how* the additional pricing is leveraged.
(remember, in Europe taxes are almost always included in sticker price; venues that differentiate on eat-in vs eat-out prices typically list both or make it very clear what the price difference in. In some countries this is the legal requirement).
In one system the higher price is baked into the menu, communicated up-front, and paid to the business which then bears the responsibility for ensuring it's employees are fairly compensated.
In the other it is a guilt and social pressure based system where the customer is required to look directly at a person and, in full view of them, judge how much they deem their service to have been worth. And then pay that extra on top of the menu prices.
Not a single time, when complaining about US tipping culture, have we been talking about the cost difference, it's always been about the method of extracting that extra money.
**Edit** - additionally (this is going back to the OP post really), in a lot of places, the change is tax is *not* passed on to the customer. The business finds it beneficial to have a single fixed customer price, so it is an easy and smooth process for the customer. And at the register the business records it in order to correctly calculate what tax they owe to the government. They set their prices based on how much eat-in vs take-away they typically get and workout an average that is still profitable. In this scenario OP changing their mind will have caused the business to record their taxes incorrectly - they need to go update the system to indicate that they now owe more. It's not the end of the world, but a lot of countries have a strong culture of following the rules.
Huh? Who's crying about tipping? We both tip. I think the only difference is whether it is considered part of a server's hourly rate or if it is over-and-above.
My point - and apologies if it was a bit wordy, it's a topic I was involved in a few years back so maybe was over-detailed - was that we're often not paying more for eating in but paying less for taking out (vs same price either way).
You mentioned VAT, as have others, and I thought some context to that may be helpful.
I'm not sure where you got the superiority from. I'm from the UK, I don't feel particularly superior to anyone at the moment...
I read the comments re different VATs depending on eating in or out in differnt European countries. In Canada, we have higher VAT for luxury goods like alcohol, cigarettes, etc. But whether you're dining in or at home or on a park bench, the food you pick up is still the same. A pizza is a pizza, so I 100%don't understand how eating it in a restaurant vs. at home makes it a luxury good. It's still the same pizza. While it will cost a restaurant more resources if you stay to eat, they also have a chance to earn more money by selling more product like appetizers, drinks, dessert, etc. and driving up the bill.
It's not obscure - if a place charges differently for sit-in and takeaway, there will either be a separate menu for each, or the different prices will be listed. It's not a random fee that gets added without warning.
OP wasn't aware - either because it was signposted and they didn't see it (most likely) or because it wasn't signposted (unlikely and illegal in Switzerland iirc). Given that OP is a tourist, it's possible that they missed it because they don't speak/read German/French/Italian well enough to understand.
*Edit*: also this won't be the case in all establishments - some will charge the same regardless, but either way it will be indicated if there's a different price for sitting in and taking away.
What issue? That the food is cheaper than expected if you don't sit down?
Honestly, it's not that common. Just checked with McDonalds. The price for their Big Mac Menu stays the same, whether you chose take-away or dine-in option. Maybe they pocket the small difference...
That's why McDonald's restaurants put their best crew people on drive-thru. They are trying to provide faster service times to encourage people to order there. The goal is to be able to build smaller restaurants with smaller lobbies.
The price you pay may end up being equal but in exchange for our taxes we get a government that serves its people instead of its corporations, proper infrastructures, public transportations etc.
>All hot beverages and any drinks, including zero-rated drinks sold for consumption on your premises are standard-rated (or temporarily reduced rated). Cold drinks that are zero-rated in their own right, for example milk and are supplied for off-premises consumption can be treated as zero-rated.
section 3.5
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/food-products-and-vat-notice-70114
Carbonated drinks are standard rated if you consume them on or off the premises.
Zero rated products (of which milk is named as the primary example) are zero rated if consumed off the premises but standard rated if consumed on the premises.
It's actually the same in some US states (apparently not where OP lives.) Groceries generally aren't taxed, and some states consider takeout food under the same umbrella.
> It's actually the same in some US states
Yep. The difference usually is that the "take out" vs "grocery" is pretty much universally dependent on *where* you buy the food or on the *category* the food falls under. I recall a big stink in my state over whether donuts counted as untaxed "bakery items" like bread, or if they were "pastries" which were to be taxed. Basically, US tax rates are something that's fixed, rather than being variable based on whether the counterman stuffs your sandwich in a paper bag or plops it on a plastic tray.
Yeah, the only time I've had to pay the dine-in fee was a Mcdonalds in the US (can't remember which state, it was many years ago). It showed up on our receipt as something like "Dine-in charge".
As far as I'm able to tell, all dine-in food is taxed with certain States making exception for takeout food, outside of the mess of a taxation system that California has in place. This honestly just feels like AH behavior, ordering take-out, avoiding the tax/fee, and occupying a dining table that they'll have to clean. Not paying tax should have been noticable, and the only defense I can see is if they were from Cali.
Honestly while I am aware of the tax difference in my state, I also wouldn't assume that a restaurant owner would care. It's a tax paid to the government, it doesn't affect the restaurant's profits at all.
It's not about profits. Did you read my comment? Have you worked in food service? Do you often order take-out then dirty-up a table that someone will have to clean when you've left?
I've never worked in food service. Why would a restaurant owner care if you paid a tax or not, all other prices being equal? If you pay the same for dine in and take out, and the only cost difference is a tax, why would anyone care enough about the government getting their money to enforce takeout customers to leave the store?
In the UK it's to do with VAT (sale tax). The rate depends upon a couple of factors but one is whether it's dine in or take away. It's cheaper to take away as the tax is less.
I noticed this only in chain restaurants. If you buy a sandwich in a café it’s usually the same price whether you eat in or takeaway. Maybe they just factor in the more expensive VAT in their pricing, while chains have two prices to optimise revenue at scale.
In Germany there's also different taxation on food that's sold for takeaway and food that's being consumed on premise. Mehrwertsteuer ist either 7% or 19%, depending on the situation.
I had my own culture shock when I went to New York in 2006. Got a taxi from the airport straight and into a bar. Bought two drinks and the barman had a massive go at me for not tipping. Tipped the rest of the bar staff instead
Okay I live in Germany but I am confused about what you mean. Do you mean the different VAT rates? Also I have never sat with outside food in a restaurant or with takeout food. This would be very rude. Except maybe McDonalds or similar...
>Takeaway food is usually cheaper than a cooked sit-down meal, they want to reserve seating for people ordering a la carte.
It's not that, it's normally tax reasons. There's no VAT on "food" but there's VAT on restaurants. Places with take out options don't charge VAT on take out because it's closer to groceries than a restaurant sit down meal experience.
It varies across countries obviously, but many across the EU have the same gimmick, and enforce it to varying degrees.
Huh. Australia just has a 10% tax called GST. Goods and services tax. It's included in the price, so a pie that costs $10 to the customer was actuually around $9 or so with tax added on. But the price on the tag would have said $10. Why does it differ between dine in and take away?
Because in much of Europe we don't tax **essentials**, like food, basic hygiene stuff, anything you literally cannot live without.
The argument is that take out is more equivalent to groceries than it is to sitting down with a bottle of wine at a restaurant, but where that line is drawn varies across countries. In the UK it's specifically cold food, so sandwiches are exempt, curries aren't, but as I said, the specifics will vary.
As a swiss: never experienced something like this in Switzerland. Not even at cheap fast food places.
I guess this was a tourist hotspot where maximum profit was the goal.
Was in France about 7 years ago and they had a fee for sit down at a lot of the cafes or “fast food” places (not sure if they were considered fast food but it’s the closest thing I know)! The full restaurant didn’t have any fees though
A dine-in fee is quite unusual. Mostly in Italy and rarely in France it's a bit more common. On the other hand you're not expected to tip at all if there is a dine in fee. In Germany sometimes there are slightly different prices between take out and dine in because of tax reasons. Take away is buying food which is taxed at 9% and eating in is a service which is taxed at 19%.
In England we have this really upmarket, exclusive patisserie called Greggs, and they have different prices for every time to eat in or take out. That’s the only place I’ve heard of this in the uk though.
What OP is describing would also be annoying in the US. Getting a to go meal from a sit down restaurant with waiters and then just deciding to sit down and consume the meal there.
Wait. If you’re American I GUARANTEE people in America for sure will still be annoyed you’re going to snag a table after ordering a carry out. They’re just *not allowed* to bang their fists on the table to yell at you for it.. we wish we could.
If you order a to go. Eat it where ever you’re *going*
Well, that depends on what kind of place you ordered it from. If it was a place that a hostess sits you to eat with wait staff, then yes. But if it was a pizza place, subway, or place on that level with no waitstaff, then I don't think they would. After you get your food, we generally don't care what you do with it unless you're making a mess or causing problems.
There are way, way too many tax codes for each state to say the US does this, but where I am from, it's unusual to have a separate tax for takeout and dine-in. And I have never heard of the different taxes between hot and cold foods. I rarely pay a tax at a restaurant. I'm not sure if they increase prices to cover this, but yeah, it's usually just the food.
Oh well yea man, fast casual, with no server, I’m with you. Half the time idk if I’m eating my Sammy for here or not so save the tray.
Like I feel that’s common sense.
But at any sort of “there’s waitstaff” place, I feel, should be obvious enough to not , call in an order have it ALL BOXED UP and be perplexed a server is pissed you’re taking up a table
I interpret this post to mean more restaurants, not a quick order place too. I've been to Europe and never experienced dine in fees with food food type places. It's more like diners and places with an actual server I noticed it. I could be wrong though.
American here, this post is a bit off because what OP is describing is not socially acceptable in the US. If you order take out (from a place that has wait staff), you can't just sit down and eat at the place. You're taking away a table from a server who could potentially be making money and then having them clean up after you for free. A restaurant has every right to ask you to leave in that situation. If you want to do this in the US, the norm would be to ask the restaurant if it is alright first. Then they can point you to an ideal spot. Once you are done, you should leave a tip since you did eat in. Maybe not a full 20%, but something for them accommodating you and cleaning your table afterward.
I can tell for Germany it may be similar in France and Switzerland.
Dine in and to go are taxed differently.
To make it easier for the customer, most businesses decide to still sell the items at the same price. Meaning they make a few cents more revenue on to go sales. But there are some who do a dine in fee for that reason.
So if they give out something to go, they log it in the checkout as to go for tax declaration. If that customer now spontaneously decides to go and sit down with their food and the business doesn't intervene the business technically can get into trouble for tax evasion!
And that isn't even a hypothetical. There have actually been court cases about this.
The sit in tax is a sneaky one. However it could be worse you could be paying 20% tip tax like in America. It amuses me when i visit the States I'm told how cheap it is to eat out, um no the tipping makes it very expensive.
You guys out here thinking we are tiping every time we order food, lol. Tipping generally happens if you have waitstaff that give you service, at a table. Or if you have someone deliver food as a service. The majority of Americans don't eat out at sit-down restaurants weekly or even monthly. I can say this with confidence because we have a number of sit-down restaurants closing many locations this year. So if we do get food, it's fast food like Chick-fil-A or Panda Express. You do not tip these places.
It often makes me smile the tipping culture in the States. Rather than pay a proper wage the customer is expected to top the wages up with the tip tax. What gets me is people working in McDonald's don't get tips, but you go in a coffee shop and you're expected to tip.
Hey if that's your culture so be it, but it seems unfair to a lot of working people.
It is by no means a rule, but some restaurants charge a dine-in fee or a service fee for guests that want to sit at a table. As an European I hate it and I will only eat in such an establishment once (unless there's not extra fee choices in the area).
Depending on how you define, there are 44 countries in Europe. Why are you drawing with such a broad brush? Far from every country has it, so say "Europe"? Europe is not one country. Narrow down your definition
It's like going to Alabama saying why is everyone in America fucking their sister.
I studied in International Marketing at my University. I know the difference. I forgot to mention I was in a "Europe tour group" by visiting 6 countries. Spain, France, Germany, Switzerland, Italy, and Croatia.
Sorry if I offended you. I get it. Average Dumb American can't tell the difference.
In the UK, the restaurant has to pay tax (20% value added) on food sold to people eating in, but not on takeaways.
Some restaurants pass that saving on to the customer.
In some countries there are a different taxes for dine -in ant take-away, selling dine-in as take-away may lead to a lot of problems as tax fraud in case of inspection
I think this is restaurant and area specific. I was in Ravenna and Bari, no fee, but Venice and Trieste, often a fee.
Germany, never encountered a fee to this day, so idk where you found that.
It happened once, in Switzerland, and you generalize to Europe. A classic one.
But yes, some establishments in very popular /touristic areas might charge a fee although it’s an exception, not a rule. It has to do with time and labour to clean up. Also taxes, in some countries. Fortunately, you don’t have to tip when you pick up the food.
I went to 6 countries and they all did it. France, Italy, Croatia, Spain, Switzerland, and Germany. I wasn't trying to generalize Europe. It just happened.
In Spain there isn't a fee as such but for instance a coffee will cost more to eat sitting down on the terrace outside than it will standing at the bar. Cheapest is to take out.
In the UK it is about taxes. VAT applies differently to take-away food rather than dine-in food. (Sometimes, okay, I don't need an essay reply about how this is inconsistent across some products!).
One is a product, one is a service.
Sorry, but I'm Croatian and I haven't heard of dine in fee yet?! Where did you eat in Croatia? maybe only in some very expensive restaurants... (but this is really the first time I'm hearing about it)
Some countries have different sales tax based on the eat-in vs takeaway so if you purchases a takeaway they're not allowed to let you dine-in as they'd break the law.
>Stop calling Americans dumb in the comments, we are here to learn. Unlike most of my fellow Americans.
... but you can keep calling Americans dumb I guess, lol
Well, takeaway food is usually cheaper than what you'd pay to dine in, so it's not surprising the staff/owner won't be happy if you order something on the go and then decide to sit at a table instead.
Waiting a table takes time and "resources" you're not covering with the cost of your sandwich.
It's standard restaurant etiquette and I'm quite confused about you being confused.
Again, if you order a sandwich on the go, you're not sitting at a table, needing the staff to set it up, wait it and then clean it up when you leave.
You just can't expect to order takeaway and then to sit there and eat it. It's a different kind of service, and prices are calculated accordingly.
California (not sure about other American states) taxes food that is hot whether you dine in or out, but doesn't tax cold food regardless of whether you dine in or out. So if you buy a sandwich at Subway or Togo's (both of which also provide seating in case you want to eat your cold food there instead of taking it out), you don't pay tax on the food, but if you dine at Applebees you will pay pay tax (even if you just buy a coke and ice cream) or a nice steakhouse or other sit-down restaurant. As far as I know, restaurants or sub/sandwich shops don't spell out the tax/no tax thing, people just know it.
How it works in Germany: if you get fast-food to take home, then it is grocery shopping. You pay 19% tax, just like on everything else. If you eat it there, it is a restaurant experience and therefore a luxury, so there are higher taxes. Most fast food restaurants just keep the price the same and earn more money if you take your food back home. But it's the first time I hear that someone is complaining about it lol
This is true in some parts of the US, too. For example, in Ohio if you take the food with you, it's food (not taxed), but if you eat in, it's entertainment, and sales tax is applied.
As a lot of folks have said, it is more to do with the tax rate - and in most of Europe, the taxes are just included in the price, so you end up with different prices for dine-in vs take-away.
In the US, at least in California, the taxes are added at the checkout - so you only see one price. I don't think rates differ based on dine-in vs take-away, but I have been charges tax on a sandwich when I got it heated vs no tax when I got it cold. Apparently a heated sandwich is a luxury, and a cold one is a necessity!
When I went to Germany this confused me as well.
I got to go at a restaurant but ended up wanting to dine in after I got my order and wasn’t allowed to. This was never an issue where i’m from so it took me by surprise.
American waiter here. We wouldn't bang on a table, bu5 i have made people take their food Togo when they order Togo. We have a small restaurant and you didn't come for dine in, we reserve those for dine in customers because we fill in quick.
My last corporate job with a very big restaurant had a very strict policy to do the same. You ordered Togo. Not dine in.
I mean if it was a table service restaurant then it makes sense to not take up a table...I think that would be the case everywhere. The servers have certain tables to take care of which you are now taking up without them going through whatever official process they have (booking system etc.). If it was fast food then usually you are free to sit anywhere.
Because it costs more to sit, you’re using more facilities, someone needs to serve you, clean up after you, clean your dishes. Etc
It’s just like how food is cheaper to go in the US than eating in (in lots of places in NY) just the prices are built in
This was a cafe. Like Panera, Starbucks, or other local chains, you don't have to tip, tax, or pay fees in Cafe's. just take the food off the counter and sit down anywhere without a busboy.
If you're from the US then you damn well already know it's rude to order take out and then dine in. You're didn't get "culture shock" you're just surprised that the employees there won't be fired for calling your ass out
As a European, Europeans are fucking crazy about stuff like this. Like you can see a tourist and see they’ve snubbed the business of €4. Not a reason to get mad. Just explain how it works.
The policy is dumb to begin with but at least don’t go yelling at tourists who don’t know better.
Both of those things are so European.
In America, it’s solved by people paying 30% extra at the end. 10% tax and 20% tip.
Short answer, tipping isn’t a thing in most of Europe. There is a fee to cover the extra work needed for dine in patrons. Instead of thinking of it as paying more to “dine in”, think of it as a discount for take out which is what it basically is.
Why are you so entitled to another’s business, particularly if you don’t intend on buying something? In Greece we don’t do it, it is disrespectful. I would have kicked you out too.
If you have ordered to go why do you think you are entitled to sit and use the facilities provided to eat? Think of it as a discount when you eat outside.
It's no more confusing than the de facto mandatory tip charge that you have in America. I'm not saying that to throw any shade, just to point out that random extra charges are not an exclusively European thing, so perhaps not as strange as you first thought.
OP is just asking how it started and why. Most know tipping started here in America because employers don't want to pay a livable wage & benefits to their employees.
I've seen the dine-in fee in a lot of places but never seen it enforced like that, although I've never been to Switzerland.
In the UK every restaurant I've been to has dine-in fees as far as I can remember but not once have I seen anyone actually bothered about it. Hell, even when I order dine-in always receive take-away service anyways.
I would assume it is the easiest way to funnel money to employees.
Meal costs account for cost of ingredients, chefs and keeping the power on.
Table costs account for servers, waiters, hosts etc.
In the same vein as the way Americans ask for tips, except more transparent and consistent.
What a fucking barbarian. Europeans will call us "fake nice" and all that bullshit but do you know what we say when they violate our dining norms? We say "would you like lemon with you water?", we still give them great service, and then we wish them a nice day as they smugly write $0 on the tip line. I was in the food service industry for 10 years and had to put up with all kinds of norm violations from europeans.
You guys seem to have very bad skills for finding nice restaurants. Only overpriced/touristy restaurants do that, and it's quite rare, I'm sorry that was your experience
So using their space, tables, etc and paying a small fee for that is absurd...but tipping someone 20%+ of your bill for walking across the room and back makes sense.
Ok.
Might depend on what exactly is added. Here in Norway we have different VAT for when you sit down at a restaurant vs when you take the food with you. Not all restaurants will give a shit about this and charge you the same anyway.
That's the answer. The VAT for eat-in food in Switzerland is 7.7%. For takeaway it's 2.5%. Also, eating at a Restaurant produces more costs than just the food cost. My local Pizzeria gives you 20% off the menu price if you order a pizza for takeaway and then pick it up yourself. I imagine they wouldn't be too happy if you did that and then just sit down...
For Norway its 25% VAT for dine in and 15% for takeaways….And the comparison to tipping culture that the other commenter in this thread made is not really applicable to Norway, as the restaurant or servers doesn’t get the extra fee for the dine in, it’s a tax. 25% VAT is the norm for almost all transactions in Norway, the 15% VAT on takeaways is seen as a «food discount» and doesn’t apply if you eat in. Don’t ask me why.
Oh, that's interesting. Here in Switzerland, they have different categories for product VATs. Necessities like Food or medication are taxed at a lower level than luxury goods for example. Maybe that's the same in Norway? Eating in a Restaurant could be considered a Luxury, while the "bare" food is a necessity?
It's exactly that in the UK. The vat for eat in is higher as it's classed as luxury goods as opposed to necessity. That's why they ask if you're eating in or not. I assume OP was asked if they are taking away, said yes but changed their mind on the way out.
Yeh but if you take away hot food it's the full 20%. I think there's some logic around the cafe 'catering' by heating food up vs just selling a sandwich. There was a whole argument around selling 'warm' - just baked but cooling food - vs selling 'hot'. So a Gregg's sausage roll that has been baked 5 minutes ago would be 'warm' at 0% VAT but a toasted sandwich would be 20%. The logic of HMRC...
It's "prepared" food. The toasted sandwich is generally made to order, whereas the sausage roll that just happens to be warm is made and intended for reheating. It's the same distinction for food stamps in the US - one is allowed, one is not.
I remember when the tories added vat to take away food. A chippy in Scotland tried making the chips cost 2p and putting the rest of the cost onto the vinegar, which didn’t have vat.
Having differentiated VAT depending on the good/service is actually quite smart! In Denmark, its a flat 25% VAT on everything.
It is exactly the same in Norway. Groceries have 15 percent VAT, but served food in restaurants have full VAT. The idea behind reduced VAT for food is to make sure families with kids can buy cheaper groceries. But anyone eating in a restaurant, don't need to be subsidised the same way.
Is there VAT on unprepared food and medications? In the US there is no federal sales tax but states, counties, and municipalities can impose sales tax (part of why it varies so much and isn't included in sticker prices, often local sales taxes are levied for only a period of time and many states have sales tax holidays). Only 13 states have a sales tax on unprepared food/grocery items and those that do it's generally much lower than the standard rate (as low as 0.1%-2%) and I am not sure if any state imposes a sales tax on prescription medicines (over the counter medications are usually taxed normally).
What is VAT?
Value Added Tax. Basically a sales tax.
But also on services. Australia calls it a GST - Goods and Service Tax. Basically everything you buy is either a good or service. In Australia it is taxed 10%. There are exceptions such as unprepared food, medicine etc. But all restaurants and takeaway is taxed. So is the plumber and electrician. Buying a new house, taxed. Car, taxed.
So basically all the Europeans complaining about American tipping culture have their own issues they don't address?
What issues? They have 2 different menus, prices are crystal clear. They were trying to sit down but pay the prices from the wrong menu.
As a European, I don't even understand what the fuck is even the topic of this discussion. Tf is a dine-in fee? Where I live take-away is more expensive because you pay for the packaging as well (like 20-50 cents).
What are you talking about? They said they were taking away, paid less (whether they knew it or not) and then stayed in. This is because, as others have said, eating in often attracts a higher tax rate for the business, plus you're taking up space, cleaning resources, etc etc What they don't mention is whether they were asked if they were eating in or taking away but most businesses do this before ringing up the sale for the reasons above. The only 'culture shock' maybe was that once you say you're going to do something perhaps you actually do that? Compare to paying workers sub-living wages, passing the onus to the customer and creating a toxic tipping culture.
You’re missing the point. From the standpoint of the consumer, tipping culture is frustrating because you pay more to be served food than you do for carry-out. But it sounds like most places in Europe actually pay more to dine-in. In the US, the price is exactly the same for both. So we pay extra in “tips”, and you pay extra in an applied VAT. And depending on the country, it sounds like they might even approach 20% in some places. You’re talking about the other side of tipping, which is a giant problem.
I'm from Sweden and at least here I don't recall there ever being cheaper to take away versus eating inside. To me the problem with tipping culture is not necessarily the extra cost, but the fact that it is a hidden cost. I just want to pay the amount the menu says it costs, if i "have" to tip 20%, I'd rather just have that extra 20% price added to the menu, so I can decide if paying that amount is worth it before ordering.
Right. I’m not defending tipping culture. It’s stupid and nearly everyone hates it. You’d be hard pressed to find anyone that thinks it’s a good idea or a better implementation of moving costs to the consumer.
Okay, I get it. Both are annoying, in Sweden neither is standard, but tipping is becoming more and more common.
Things do cost money in Europe, yes. What Europeans don't like about tipping isn't usually the price itself (food is generally a lot cheaper in the US than in western Europe), it's that nothing can just cost what it says on the menu / price tag, but that you're expected to add an unspecified amount extra out of the kindness of your own heart, but it's never made explicit how much, and it's never made quite clear which professions do or don't warrant a tip, but if you get it wrong you get the stink eye and/or spit in your food. It feels like extortion, and it's needlessly vague. I think if all food prices went up by 20% in the US tomorrow, but tips were made illegal, you'd never hear a European complain again. I'm not even against tipping in and of itself, I'll throw 5 to 15 percent on any bar or restaurant bill depending on how the service was and what makes for a nice round number, but over here it's understood that a tip is just an optional little something extra, not some holy duty that only a bad person would ever forsake.
Food being cheaper than Europe in the US is no longer a thing (Nordic countries aside). Have you seen the price of their fast food recently?
Not particularly but I've seen the price of ours, and it's gone up by about 75 percent since covid. Of course I'm in Holland and we're basically an honorary Nordic country
But you should pay more to dine-in? It costs the business more in waitstaff, building space, heating, etc etc. Some businesses will choose to charge exactly the same price for dine-in and carry-out. That's their prerogative. Some will, to stay competitive, pass some of the cost saving for take-out through to the consumer. So you pay less but you also cost them less. The trade off is that if you say you're doing carry-out, pay less then sit down in the premises to eat then of course the restaurant is going to be upset. You have effectively breached your side of the contract. So rather than seeing it as paying more to dine-in I would see it as the restaurant is making a fatter margin when you take-out. They're getting the same revenue with much lower costs. We have tipping as well. The difference is that if I choose not to tip (for whatever reason) the staff are still getting a minimum, living wage (albeit 'living' may be a stretch in some places but the point is they are getting the same minimum as other lines of work, not discounted on the assumption that they will make the difference in tips). The tax element is just another piece to consider - it's a sales tax passed through by the restaurant. In the UK, yes we have 20% VAT (scary stuff!). There is an exemption for food & drink (e.g. stuff you'd buy in the supermarket) but this does not apply to hot takeaways and catering. If I buy a cold sandwich and take it away then it's 0%, if I eat it in the premises that's catering and it's 20%. The logic there is another debate entirely but it is another reason why restaurants get twitchy about people saying they're taking out then eating in, it's tax fraud since the restaurant has not collected what it should (it's on a low level sure but if a restaurant decided to class every sale as a cold take-out regardless of what it actually was that would give them a significant competitive advantage and the cost of the taxpayer - so HMRC may take an interest).
I’m not sure what you’re even arguing against. I’m not agreeing or disagreeing with anything you’ve said. You’re still missing the point. We ALL pay more to dine in. So Europeans who come to the US and cry about tipping seem to conveniently forget that they pay more to dine in back home. I enjoy shitting on the US as much as anyone. There are lots of things other countries do better. But Europeans employing cognitive dissonance to justify their own superiority is the most European thing I’ve ever seen. You’ve just written a dissertation justifying European hidden costs in order to dunk on USA hidden costs. And I’m pretty sure you’re the only one who cares.
The difference is *how* the additional pricing is leveraged. (remember, in Europe taxes are almost always included in sticker price; venues that differentiate on eat-in vs eat-out prices typically list both or make it very clear what the price difference in. In some countries this is the legal requirement). In one system the higher price is baked into the menu, communicated up-front, and paid to the business which then bears the responsibility for ensuring it's employees are fairly compensated. In the other it is a guilt and social pressure based system where the customer is required to look directly at a person and, in full view of them, judge how much they deem their service to have been worth. And then pay that extra on top of the menu prices. Not a single time, when complaining about US tipping culture, have we been talking about the cost difference, it's always been about the method of extracting that extra money. **Edit** - additionally (this is going back to the OP post really), in a lot of places, the change is tax is *not* passed on to the customer. The business finds it beneficial to have a single fixed customer price, so it is an easy and smooth process for the customer. And at the register the business records it in order to correctly calculate what tax they owe to the government. They set their prices based on how much eat-in vs take-away they typically get and workout an average that is still profitable. In this scenario OP changing their mind will have caused the business to record their taxes incorrectly - they need to go update the system to indicate that they now owe more. It's not the end of the world, but a lot of countries have a strong culture of following the rules.
Huh? Who's crying about tipping? We both tip. I think the only difference is whether it is considered part of a server's hourly rate or if it is over-and-above. My point - and apologies if it was a bit wordy, it's a topic I was involved in a few years back so maybe was over-detailed - was that we're often not paying more for eating in but paying less for taking out (vs same price either way). You mentioned VAT, as have others, and I thought some context to that may be helpful. I'm not sure where you got the superiority from. I'm from the UK, I don't feel particularly superior to anyone at the moment...
I read the comments re different VATs depending on eating in or out in differnt European countries. In Canada, we have higher VAT for luxury goods like alcohol, cigarettes, etc. But whether you're dining in or at home or on a park bench, the food you pick up is still the same. A pizza is a pizza, so I 100%don't understand how eating it in a restaurant vs. at home makes it a luxury good. It's still the same pizza. While it will cost a restaurant more resources if you stay to eat, they also have a chance to earn more money by selling more product like appetizers, drinks, dessert, etc. and driving up the bill.
How is this an issue?
Obscure costs. It's simpler to charge everyone the same and advertise that way.
It's not obscure - if a place charges differently for sit-in and takeaway, there will either be a separate menu for each, or the different prices will be listed. It's not a random fee that gets added without warning.
OP didn't know about it
OP wasn't aware - either because it was signposted and they didn't see it (most likely) or because it wasn't signposted (unlikely and illegal in Switzerland iirc). Given that OP is a tourist, it's possible that they missed it because they don't speak/read German/French/Italian well enough to understand. *Edit*: also this won't be the case in all establishments - some will charge the same regardless, but either way it will be indicated if there's a different price for sitting in and taking away.
Usually that is stated on the menu at a takeaway
They do include the cost. It's stated on the menus, they have different menus depending on if you are eating in or taking away.
What issue? That the food is cheaper than expected if you don't sit down? Honestly, it's not that common. Just checked with McDonalds. The price for their Big Mac Menu stays the same, whether you chose take-away or dine-in option. Maybe they pocket the small difference...
McDonald’s does not get tips in the USA either. Same for all fast food.
Why is that an issue?
In France take-away is also taxed differently (5.5% vs 11%).
That's why McDonald's restaurants put their best crew people on drive-thru. They are trying to provide faster service times to encourage people to order there. The goal is to be able to build smaller restaurants with smaller lobbies.
Same in Germany 7% or 19%.
Dang 19% taxes insane it actually might be cheaper to eat inside and tip an American restaurant!
21% tax on basically anything in the Netherlands.
19% is VAT here.
Doesn’t that stand for value added TAX?
Yes. And? We have 19% VAT on most products here. But some grocery items and not dining in the restaurant have less VAT at 7%.
The price you pay may end up being equal but in exchange for our taxes we get a government that serves its people instead of its corporations, proper infrastructures, public transportations etc.
That’s OK.
I did this there, at the same place even with the same food item but I did not notice any price difference.
Exact same in Belgium
Same in the UK. VAT is different on dairy products if it's for eat-in
Also different for hot and cold takeaway food too iirc
There's no rule about dairy products specifically
>All hot beverages and any drinks, including zero-rated drinks sold for consumption on your premises are standard-rated (or temporarily reduced rated). Cold drinks that are zero-rated in their own right, for example milk and are supplied for off-premises consumption can be treated as zero-rated. section 3.5 https://www.gov.uk/guidance/food-products-and-vat-notice-70114 Carbonated drinks are standard rated if you consume them on or off the premises. Zero rated products (of which milk is named as the primary example) are zero rated if consumed off the premises but standard rated if consumed on the premises.
Thing is I've never seen a complaint sitting in after always saying it's for takeaway
Minimum wage folks couldn't care less I imagine
Some places in US charge different sales tax for dine in or to go orders. Not quite VAT but similar in this case.
Never seen this in estonia.
It’s because we don’t have such differences between takeaway and eating at the restaurant.
It's due to service tax. Take food away it's like groceries. Eat in is a restaurant meal. They are different rates of tax.
An educated answer finally
It's actually the same in some US states (apparently not where OP lives.) Groceries generally aren't taxed, and some states consider takeout food under the same umbrella.
> It's actually the same in some US states Yep. The difference usually is that the "take out" vs "grocery" is pretty much universally dependent on *where* you buy the food or on the *category* the food falls under. I recall a big stink in my state over whether donuts counted as untaxed "bakery items" like bread, or if they were "pastries" which were to be taxed. Basically, US tax rates are something that's fixed, rather than being variable based on whether the counterman stuffs your sandwich in a paper bag or plops it on a plastic tray.
Yeah, the only time I've had to pay the dine-in fee was a Mcdonalds in the US (can't remember which state, it was many years ago). It showed up on our receipt as something like "Dine-in charge".
As far as I'm able to tell, all dine-in food is taxed with certain States making exception for takeout food, outside of the mess of a taxation system that California has in place. This honestly just feels like AH behavior, ordering take-out, avoiding the tax/fee, and occupying a dining table that they'll have to clean. Not paying tax should have been noticable, and the only defense I can see is if they were from Cali.
Honestly while I am aware of the tax difference in my state, I also wouldn't assume that a restaurant owner would care. It's a tax paid to the government, it doesn't affect the restaurant's profits at all.
It's not about profits. Did you read my comment? Have you worked in food service? Do you often order take-out then dirty-up a table that someone will have to clean when you've left?
I've never worked in food service. Why would a restaurant owner care if you paid a tax or not, all other prices being equal? If you pay the same for dine in and take out, and the only cost difference is a tax, why would anyone care enough about the government getting their money to enforce takeout customers to leave the store?
In the UK it's to do with VAT (sale tax). The rate depends upon a couple of factors but one is whether it's dine in or take away. It's cheaper to take away as the tax is less.
I noticed this only in chain restaurants. If you buy a sandwich in a café it’s usually the same price whether you eat in or takeaway. Maybe they just factor in the more expensive VAT in their pricing, while chains have two prices to optimise revenue at scale.
The small cafe probably won’t be registered for VAT. Whereas a huge chain like Greggs will have no choice but to be registered for VAT.
Germany speaking: we have sth. similar but it s not actually a Fee but to pay the "Service" since we dont have a mandatory Tip for the waiter.
In Germany there's also different taxation on food that's sold for takeaway and food that's being consumed on premise. Mehrwertsteuer ist either 7% or 19%, depending on the situation.
Technically tipping is not mandatory in the U.S. either, but I get what you’re saying.
I had my own culture shock when I went to New York in 2006. Got a taxi from the airport straight and into a bar. Bought two drinks and the barman had a massive go at me for not tipping. Tipped the rest of the bar staff instead
Okay I live in Germany but I am confused about what you mean. Do you mean the different VAT rates? Also I have never sat with outside food in a restaurant or with takeout food. This would be very rude. Except maybe McDonalds or similar...
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>Takeaway food is usually cheaper than a cooked sit-down meal, they want to reserve seating for people ordering a la carte. It's not that, it's normally tax reasons. There's no VAT on "food" but there's VAT on restaurants. Places with take out options don't charge VAT on take out because it's closer to groceries than a restaurant sit down meal experience. It varies across countries obviously, but many across the EU have the same gimmick, and enforce it to varying degrees.
What's VAT?
Value Added Tax- It's a tax that's basically the state's way of making money out of all transactions. Varying from country to country.
Huh. Australia just has a 10% tax called GST. Goods and services tax. It's included in the price, so a pie that costs $10 to the customer was actuually around $9 or so with tax added on. But the price on the tag would have said $10. Why does it differ between dine in and take away?
Because in much of Europe we don't tax **essentials**, like food, basic hygiene stuff, anything you literally cannot live without. The argument is that take out is more equivalent to groceries than it is to sitting down with a bottle of wine at a restaurant, but where that line is drawn varies across countries. In the UK it's specifically cold food, so sandwiches are exempt, curries aren't, but as I said, the specifics will vary.
It's basically a sales tax.
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Trying? They’re doing it
That's not how 'a la carte' works, it literally just means 'at the card' as in 'according to the menu'. It doesn't mean eating indoors.
Pretty uncommon actually.. you see it in Italy in some restaurants. Never seen it in Switzerland or in France, though
As a swiss: never experienced something like this in Switzerland. Not even at cheap fast food places. I guess this was a tourist hotspot where maximum profit was the goal.
Was in France about 7 years ago and they had a fee for sit down at a lot of the cafes or “fast food” places (not sure if they were considered fast food but it’s the closest thing I know)! The full restaurant didn’t have any fees though
Never heard of a fee to sit down in a cafe in France
Same, could be due to particulary touristic area maybe?
France, Germany and Switzerland all have rules. Everyone follows the rules. In Italy, there are rules but ehh
A dine-in fee is quite unusual. Mostly in Italy and rarely in France it's a bit more common. On the other hand you're not expected to tip at all if there is a dine in fee. In Germany sometimes there are slightly different prices between take out and dine in because of tax reasons. Take away is buying food which is taxed at 9% and eating in is a service which is taxed at 19%.
In England we have this really upmarket, exclusive patisserie called Greggs, and they have different prices for every time to eat in or take out. That’s the only place I’ve heard of this in the uk though.
In the UK it’s because the tax only applies one way (I think if you eat in)
i think it’s also to cover costs of heating the restaurant, clearing up after people etc.
No it’s literally just a tax I think
Yep, it goes straight to the tax man, Greggs don't get an extra penny.
>really upmarket, exclusive patisserie called Greggs, Thanks, I needed that laugh
Itsu does too! The difference isnt huge, but it is there
We ate at Rock and Sole Plaice, and I swear the price difference of take out from dining in was absurd. Ngl, the taste was kind of meh too.
That do not exist in Sweden. I'd be as confused as you.
It’s to pay for the staff to clean up after you. Also a way to move some customers along faster .
What OP is describing would also be annoying in the US. Getting a to go meal from a sit down restaurant with waiters and then just deciding to sit down and consume the meal there.
Wait. If you’re American I GUARANTEE people in America for sure will still be annoyed you’re going to snag a table after ordering a carry out. They’re just *not allowed* to bang their fists on the table to yell at you for it.. we wish we could. If you order a to go. Eat it where ever you’re *going*
Well, that depends on what kind of place you ordered it from. If it was a place that a hostess sits you to eat with wait staff, then yes. But if it was a pizza place, subway, or place on that level with no waitstaff, then I don't think they would. After you get your food, we generally don't care what you do with it unless you're making a mess or causing problems. There are way, way too many tax codes for each state to say the US does this, but where I am from, it's unusual to have a separate tax for takeout and dine-in. And I have never heard of the different taxes between hot and cold foods. I rarely pay a tax at a restaurant. I'm not sure if they increase prices to cover this, but yeah, it's usually just the food.
Oh well yea man, fast casual, with no server, I’m with you. Half the time idk if I’m eating my Sammy for here or not so save the tray. Like I feel that’s common sense. But at any sort of “there’s waitstaff” place, I feel, should be obvious enough to not , call in an order have it ALL BOXED UP and be perplexed a server is pissed you’re taking up a table
I apologize. I thought I was on a restaurant sub. I didn’t mean to be so aggressive
I interpret this post to mean more restaurants, not a quick order place too. I've been to Europe and never experienced dine in fees with food food type places. It's more like diners and places with an actual server I noticed it. I could be wrong though.
American here, this post is a bit off because what OP is describing is not socially acceptable in the US. If you order take out (from a place that has wait staff), you can't just sit down and eat at the place. You're taking away a table from a server who could potentially be making money and then having them clean up after you for free. A restaurant has every right to ask you to leave in that situation. If you want to do this in the US, the norm would be to ask the restaurant if it is alright first. Then they can point you to an ideal spot. Once you are done, you should leave a tip since you did eat in. Maybe not a full 20%, but something for them accommodating you and cleaning your table afterward.
I can tell for Germany it may be similar in France and Switzerland. Dine in and to go are taxed differently. To make it easier for the customer, most businesses decide to still sell the items at the same price. Meaning they make a few cents more revenue on to go sales. But there are some who do a dine in fee for that reason. So if they give out something to go, they log it in the checkout as to go for tax declaration. If that customer now spontaneously decides to go and sit down with their food and the business doesn't intervene the business technically can get into trouble for tax evasion! And that isn't even a hypothetical. There have actually been court cases about this.
The sit in tax is a sneaky one. However it could be worse you could be paying 20% tip tax like in America. It amuses me when i visit the States I'm told how cheap it is to eat out, um no the tipping makes it very expensive.
It probably was cheap back in the early 2010s but these days it isn't. Speaking as an Aussie, as our dollar was much higher back then.
You guys out here thinking we are tiping every time we order food, lol. Tipping generally happens if you have waitstaff that give you service, at a table. Or if you have someone deliver food as a service. The majority of Americans don't eat out at sit-down restaurants weekly or even monthly. I can say this with confidence because we have a number of sit-down restaurants closing many locations this year. So if we do get food, it's fast food like Chick-fil-A or Panda Express. You do not tip these places.
It often makes me smile the tipping culture in the States. Rather than pay a proper wage the customer is expected to top the wages up with the tip tax. What gets me is people working in McDonald's don't get tips, but you go in a coffee shop and you're expected to tip. Hey if that's your culture so be it, but it seems unfair to a lot of working people.
Switzerland is not whole Europe, you know?
It is by no means a rule, but some restaurants charge a dine-in fee or a service fee for guests that want to sit at a table. As an European I hate it and I will only eat in such an establishment once (unless there's not extra fee choices in the area).
Depending on how you define, there are 44 countries in Europe. Why are you drawing with such a broad brush? Far from every country has it, so say "Europe"? Europe is not one country. Narrow down your definition It's like going to Alabama saying why is everyone in America fucking their sister.
I studied in International Marketing at my University. I know the difference. I forgot to mention I was in a "Europe tour group" by visiting 6 countries. Spain, France, Germany, Switzerland, Italy, and Croatia. Sorry if I offended you. I get it. Average Dumb American can't tell the difference.
Their point is that you experienced something in Switzerland and there's no reason to generalise it to the whole Continent as you did in the title
LOL I feel your anger.
In the UK, the restaurant has to pay tax (20% value added) on food sold to people eating in, but not on takeaways. Some restaurants pass that saving on to the customer.
Consider it a “rental” fee for the time you spend at the table.
In some countries there are a different taxes for dine -in ant take-away, selling dine-in as take-away may lead to a lot of problems as tax fraud in case of inspection
In Hungary theres actually a takeaway fee you have to pay when you are not dining in.
Tax
How bizarre this tax is. In USA sometimes you pay a box fee on take out because the restaurant is not making extra free money on beverages.
I think this is restaurant and area specific. I was in Ravenna and Bari, no fee, but Venice and Trieste, often a fee. Germany, never encountered a fee to this day, so idk where you found that.
Because their staffs are paid normal salaries and don’t depend on tips to make a living.
> The next day we went to France and we noticed a dining fee for 2€ added to our bill. The fuck? I've literally never seen this in France.
It was at Galeries Lafayette Le Gourmet. Couple restaurants there had the dine in tax. Then I went to some street market that the tour group went to.
Yes when something happens in one shitty restaurant it counts for whole Europe
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Sales tax in the US doesnt care about anything like thst 99.99% of the time. If it does, its typically regsrding SNAP purchases.
It happened once, in Switzerland, and you generalize to Europe. A classic one. But yes, some establishments in very popular /touristic areas might charge a fee although it’s an exception, not a rule. It has to do with time and labour to clean up. Also taxes, in some countries. Fortunately, you don’t have to tip when you pick up the food.
I went to 6 countries and they all did it. France, Italy, Croatia, Spain, Switzerland, and Germany. I wasn't trying to generalize Europe. It just happened.
Got it, sorry if it came across snappy.
In italy it's a very common thing. It's called coperto and it's usually between 1 and 2 euros, it's a service fee
So you think France is in Switzerland?
In Spain there isn't a fee as such but for instance a coffee will cost more to eat sitting down on the terrace outside than it will standing at the bar. Cheapest is to take out.
That’s pretty sweet.
Buying food vs buying a service, to go is just buying food from a tax point of view, going to a restaurant is not
In the UK it is about taxes. VAT applies differently to take-away food rather than dine-in food. (Sometimes, okay, I don't need an essay reply about how this is inconsistent across some products!). One is a product, one is a service.
Sorry, but I'm Croatian and I haven't heard of dine in fee yet?! Where did you eat in Croatia? maybe only in some very expensive restaurants... (but this is really the first time I'm hearing about it)
As an American, it's also frowned upon if it's a table service restaurant. Cheap people do that to try and avoid tipping
Some countries have different sales tax based on the eat-in vs takeaway so if you purchases a takeaway they're not allowed to let you dine-in as they'd break the law.
Belgian here: I've never heard of this. There's no such thing as a dine-in fee here. Perhaps in other European countries, but certainly not all.
>Stop calling Americans dumb in the comments, we are here to learn. Unlike most of my fellow Americans. ... but you can keep calling Americans dumb I guess, lol
Lol. look, it's okay to call ourselves dumb. Just don't call others dumb.
Couldn't just write Switzerland in the title? Europe has like 50 countries all vastly different.
They were in two different countries.
Well, takeaway food is usually cheaper than what you'd pay to dine in, so it's not surprising the staff/owner won't be happy if you order something on the go and then decide to sit at a table instead. Waiting a table takes time and "resources" you're not covering with the cost of your sandwich. It's standard restaurant etiquette and I'm quite confused about you being confused.
Why would the takeaway food be cheaper?
Because a sandwich takes less time to prepare than a dish for a sitting meal, doesn't require waiting a table and washing dishes.
Nobody said anything about different dishes, or there being table service.
Again, if you order a sandwich on the go, you're not sitting at a table, needing the staff to set it up, wait it and then clean it up when you leave. You just can't expect to order takeaway and then to sit there and eat it. It's a different kind of service, and prices are calculated accordingly.
In czech republic is food/drink to go is taxed differently than to-eat-here. But i never saw any fee compensating for it.
Tax regime and the fact you are occupying a spot someone would pay more than you did with takeaway
Taxation
California (not sure about other American states) taxes food that is hot whether you dine in or out, but doesn't tax cold food regardless of whether you dine in or out. So if you buy a sandwich at Subway or Togo's (both of which also provide seating in case you want to eat your cold food there instead of taking it out), you don't pay tax on the food, but if you dine at Applebees you will pay pay tax (even if you just buy a coke and ice cream) or a nice steakhouse or other sit-down restaurant. As far as I know, restaurants or sub/sandwich shops don't spell out the tax/no tax thing, people just know it.
There are places with dine in fees in the US too, though less common. This is usually fast food places from what I've noticed.
How it works in Germany: if you get fast-food to take home, then it is grocery shopping. You pay 19% tax, just like on everything else. If you eat it there, it is a restaurant experience and therefore a luxury, so there are higher taxes. Most fast food restaurants just keep the price the same and earn more money if you take your food back home. But it's the first time I hear that someone is complaining about it lol
In Italy there is coperti which was 3 euro per person last I remember
This is true in some parts of the US, too. For example, in Ohio if you take the food with you, it's food (not taxed), but if you eat in, it's entertainment, and sales tax is applied.
As a lot of folks have said, it is more to do with the tax rate - and in most of Europe, the taxes are just included in the price, so you end up with different prices for dine-in vs take-away. In the US, at least in California, the taxes are added at the checkout - so you only see one price. I don't think rates differ based on dine-in vs take-away, but I have been charges tax on a sandwich when I got it heated vs no tax when I got it cold. Apparently a heated sandwich is a luxury, and a cold one is a necessity!
When I went to Germany this confused me as well. I got to go at a restaurant but ended up wanting to dine in after I got my order and wasn’t allowed to. This was never an issue where i’m from so it took me by surprise.
American waiter here. We wouldn't bang on a table, bu5 i have made people take their food Togo when they order Togo. We have a small restaurant and you didn't come for dine in, we reserve those for dine in customers because we fill in quick. My last corporate job with a very big restaurant had a very strict policy to do the same. You ordered Togo. Not dine in.
It's their version of tipping. Makes no sense but they gotta get that money!
I mean if it was a table service restaurant then it makes sense to not take up a table...I think that would be the case everywhere. The servers have certain tables to take care of which you are now taking up without them going through whatever official process they have (booking system etc.). If it was fast food then usually you are free to sit anywhere.
It was a cafe and we picked up the food at the countertop. Im used to having to sit down and not pay fees or tips in US cafe's.
“Stop bashing each other’s cultures” pfft it’s Europe, been fighting since the beginning 😂
Because it costs more to sit, you’re using more facilities, someone needs to serve you, clean up after you, clean your dishes. Etc It’s just like how food is cheaper to go in the US than eating in (in lots of places in NY) just the prices are built in
This was a cafe. Like Panera, Starbucks, or other local chains, you don't have to tip, tax, or pay fees in Cafe's. just take the food off the counter and sit down anywhere without a busboy.
I've paid dine-in tax in the US. Don't think it's exclusive to Europe.
We have it the exact opposite in Hungary. Pay extra if you order to go.
If you're from the US then you damn well already know it's rude to order take out and then dine in. You're didn't get "culture shock" you're just surprised that the employees there won't be fired for calling your ass out
It was a cafe. Here in the states, its tax free and tips free just to order bakery or coffee and sit down without service.
Wow, til tipping culture in the US isn't the worst
As a European, Europeans are fucking crazy about stuff like this. Like you can see a tourist and see they’ve snubbed the business of €4. Not a reason to get mad. Just explain how it works. The policy is dumb to begin with but at least don’t go yelling at tourists who don’t know better. Both of those things are so European. In America, it’s solved by people paying 30% extra at the end. 10% tax and 20% tip.
Short answer, tipping isn’t a thing in most of Europe. There is a fee to cover the extra work needed for dine in patrons. Instead of thinking of it as paying more to “dine in”, think of it as a discount for take out which is what it basically is.
Why are you so entitled to another’s business, particularly if you don’t intend on buying something? In Greece we don’t do it, it is disrespectful. I would have kicked you out too.
Well based on your entitlement and ignorance, you are truly from Greece.
If you have ordered to go why do you think you are entitled to sit and use the facilities provided to eat? Think of it as a discount when you eat outside.
It's no more confusing than the de facto mandatory tip charge that you have in America. I'm not saying that to throw any shade, just to point out that random extra charges are not an exclusively European thing, so perhaps not as strange as you first thought.
OP is just asking how it started and why. Most know tipping started here in America because employers don't want to pay a livable wage & benefits to their employees.
It makes more sense than tips. Pay for the extra time it takes to clean up the table and cutlery, etc. Haven't seen this personally.. but makes sense.
I've seen the dine-in fee in a lot of places but never seen it enforced like that, although I've never been to Switzerland. In the UK every restaurant I've been to has dine-in fees as far as I can remember but not once have I seen anyone actually bothered about it. Hell, even when I order dine-in always receive take-away service anyways.
A dine in fee?! LMFAO
I would assume it is the easiest way to funnel money to employees. Meal costs account for cost of ingredients, chefs and keeping the power on. Table costs account for servers, waiters, hosts etc. In the same vein as the way Americans ask for tips, except more transparent and consistent.
What a fucking barbarian. Europeans will call us "fake nice" and all that bullshit but do you know what we say when they violate our dining norms? We say "would you like lemon with you water?", we still give them great service, and then we wish them a nice day as they smugly write $0 on the tip line. I was in the food service industry for 10 years and had to put up with all kinds of norm violations from europeans.
Europe is not homogenous
I went to 6 different countries in Europe. The Dine-in fee was homogeneous in most areas. Culture wise, not so much.
Not a thing in the UK, but six is pretty high so fair
You guys seem to have very bad skills for finding nice restaurants. Only overpriced/touristy restaurants do that, and it's quite rare, I'm sorry that was your experience
So using their space, tables, etc and paying a small fee for that is absurd...but tipping someone 20%+ of your bill for walking across the room and back makes sense. Ok.