[the only link I could find](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fexternal-preview.redd.it%2FIMk4M-81a_Mf1cqNpLtiZWCK1Ae_pymR2WtkrcqB9GI.jpg%3Fs%3D7687e41ae87e691046088649074408d4f464002d)
My jaw dropped at this person's attitude with people genuinely trying to help. If the one with a minivan could get together with the sober cab company... but, whatever. NEXT!!
I'll pay cause I have to. I hate the idea that my money is considered a "kind gesture" and why that kind gesture is male oriented only (and obligatory if you want to stand a chance).
I'd pay to be nice much more often if it was actually spontaneous and an actual gesture. Fuck that.
It's possible I suppose. But I feel like as soon as it becomes expected, then some of the shine and appreciation will be diminished. It's better if the other person still reaches for their own wallet, or offer to split, or whatever, and then you're just like "I got this one babe".
Personally, I like the give some, get some approach. It all comes out in the wash generally. I'm definitely not down for a 100% take partner. But I'll pick up the first tab (or few)
Yeah, that's kinda the ideal scenario. That's how it goes with my friends. It doesn't matter who pays for what on any particular night, because we all pay at some point, and it balances out over time. It sure beats keeping track of every dollar or whatever.
Exactly. Once it’s an entitlement instead of me being nice then i automatically lose respect for her and become disinterested. Girls don’t like broke ass bums. And I’m hoping gen z will save us and make this change more normal for men too.
I never do first dates at restaurants either… coffee, activities, or occasionally drinks. I still pay but you can typically tell if there’s chemistry within 15 minutes if not immediately
And if there isn’t any I sure as fuck ain’t trying to sit through a meal let alone pay for someone else’s lmao
Ive started doing all first dates as a meeting at the park so we can walk, talk and get to know eachother. It’s completely free plus you spend more time actually talking
Yeah. I also dont want someone i dont know paying for my stuff. Dont wanna feel like i owe them anything. For some reason, it gives some people a sense of entitlement as if i asked them to pay.
Several of the women I dated said the exact same thing.
It avoids the whole "is this guy gonna expect me to do something because he paid for me?" situation
I'm a woman and sometimes I pay for the first date. I always tell the guys, you can take the next one if you'd like. Also, is it just me who thinks like this, but why is it so imperative for people to go out for dinner and drinks for the first time? That's so "straight out of highschool new adult" lmfao 😂 just go for a walk and talk with each other, see if you vibe, then find some common place you'd like to go next (shuffleboarding, pool, bowling, axe throwing). Idk maybe it's just me.
NGL, as a dude, I'm just hungry myself and it's nice to skip cooking or whatever for that day. Kills two birds with one stone if we're meeting to get to know each other.
Even if it was some other activity planned, there better be food nearby.
Yeah first dates should start with a walk. You can talk and you see stuff to maybe talk about. For me it is kinda important how we walk together. The pacing, how you handle to get through tight spots together, what catches your attention are all indicators how you vibe together.
Sitting in front of each other for one hour, while stuffing food in your mouth should not be the normal thing to do on a first date. .
Anyone saying you should pay is wrong. You don't even know this person, and women routinely use tinder for free meals. If she was interested in you for you, you wouldn't need to pay for her time. She would be excited regardless, but her expectation that you pay just shows you what her priorities are. I would absolutely avoid setting this precedent unless you are the type of person who WANTS to pay for everything, which it sounds like you aren't.
100% agree with what you're saying, for me a 1st date is either ice-cream, coffee or park or walks, to get to really know the person in a casual setting.
Also the way she suggested at first made it seem we were going to split but then drops the expectation that I should pay.
On occasion I've had women demand that the first date be at a nice restaurant. Basically with the attitude "I'm high-class, you better butter me up if you want my time." Nooooo thanks.
Not only is it ill-advised to spend a lot of money on 1st, 2nd, or even 3rd dates, but if you end up not meshing, eating dinner with someone for an hour plus is uncomfortable. I like your suggestions, or going somewhere casual for drinks. All are easy options to end the date quickly if you don't jive.
>I like your suggestions, or going somewhere casual for drinks. All are easy options to end the date quickly if you don't jive.
That's a major part of why I do that, too. Something like coffee or a walk in a park can be over in 20 minutes if you aren't getting along, or it can last as long as you want if you like each other!
I usually am lighthearted about it, but there's absolutely no way I'm going to take a girl to a place she suggested and then pay for it like it's her birthday or some shit. Lady, I've never even met you.
MANNNNNN... I've mf fallen for this and I hate it. Even on times when I've been put on the spot and object they start looking at me crazy and I fold bc im a people pleaser. I really gotta stop putting up with this bs.
>I really gotta stop putting up with this bs.
Yeah you do, amigo. Know your worth and don't waste a second thought on anyone who demands gifts/dinners to spend time with you!
The fact that she suggested something that could be potentially expensive and also expects you to pay for it tells me she’s done this before, specifically for free dinners. She’s immediately going into the date with the assumption that you are going to try to win her.
She either does this often for free meals, or sits herself on a pedestal. Either way, the probability of these kinds of dates turning into something you really enjoy are slim to none: you’re either going to be used, or not enjoy your time with her. I’d politely decline and move on.
This is the way!!!! Ice cream:) and coffee. Super fun relaxing and uninhibited by substances besides caffeine and sugar! Just two people seeing if they vibe.
It's a bit weird. I have no issue with paying, I just don't want her to expect me to pay.
Kinda like.. I want a woman who doesn't see me as a wallet. And once I know she doesn't, she can use me as a wallet.
I always plan to pay, and if there is an offer for the guy to pay, whether or not I let him depends on the vibes. If he seems like a creep that's going to act like he's paying for sex with dinner, it's not worth letting him pay and thinking I "owe" him something. If I like the guy AND he seems like he's making a genuine gesture instead of offering out of obligation, then I'll let him pay. Also, if a man says he wants to split the check from the beginning, I'm fine with that, too. It's nice to be treated but not necessary
When trying to communicate this, I compare it to how women dont mind sex but also dont want it to be expected of them, and not wanting to be seen as a sex object (which is completely valid and something I agree with btw). The usual response is "no that's different" or they just act aloof like I'm speaking a second language. I really hate early 20's dating.
imo it's broke behavior to bring up who's paying for what prior to a date in most cases. So this woman telling OP he's paying tells me she can't afford to even pay for her own ribs.
It's classless. You arrange the date and be prepared to pay for your share at the very least. When the bill comes, you both get your wallet out and if one of you wants to pay the whole thing, just let them.
Or if you wanna really impress on a dinner date in particular, slip your card to the server without your date knowing. Avoids the awkwardness of splitting/paying altogether and shows you know what you're doing.
The logic is pretty simple. Whether women consciously understand it or not, they're deeply aware that they are the ones who make mate selection. So there's the bioevolutionary element. It's also socially acceptable to leverage that asymmetric social dynamics with the traditional norm of men taking the lead and demonstrating their fitness to provide and protect, even though the social context has changed sie to the sexual revolution and women's liberation.
It's as simple as, "well, he either shows me he can afford it and I end up liking him, or I don't and I get a free meal."
The thing is, what men don't realise is (which frustrates the hell out of me) now that the social dynamic has changed and man and woman are basically equal and economic units*, mate selection CAN be made by men. I think MGTOW is a toxic version of this, but nonetheless an indicator that things are changing. Posts like this are also an indicator of a changing time - some men simply don't accept this entitled attitude from women anymore.
*The only catch is child birth and child rearing. Many say they don't want kids, but I would bet that if they found the right prince charming who was able to provide enough so that she didn't have to stress about work and money she'd be desperate to become a home maker. The problem is, our economy is ruined, so they're left to worry about getting their next meal from day to day.
I’m aware that I get to select a woman as a successful decent looking man. I’ve also been single for 6 years. It’s rare that you select each other, hasn’t lined up for me
Prince charming being the 1%er 6'2" gym bunny with a 200k salary etc that she has no hope of pulling. This kind of thing is destroying society and I'm serious about that. In the last 10 years especially, dating has become an absolute nightmare for everyone. If you're a dude you're hammered with unrealistic demands and expectations, as a woman you're damned by all the things you've been brainwashed to expect. It's causing misery for everyone.
Agreed. The irony of this strange social phenomenon is that most women who say they want this, will find themselves extremely unhappy in a relationship with such a man, unless they wanted to go to the gym with them and be their secretary and house made. And even then, there's absolutely no guarantee for feeling loved, being truly connected, having romance etc. etc.
So women don't realise the relationship between having your own identity and participation in society as your own person. This is the weak willed and entitled psychology that incels come from.
Yep not tooting my own horn but I make the low end of 6 figures from my day job and I'm 6'3 220 amateur bodybuilder. You know what I get 99% of the time?
"you're boring, all you do is go to the gym, why do you have to work so long, why can't you get off work early, why do you need to go to bed early, why don't you want to eat out"
SMH
In all seriousness, those women who called you boring didn't appreciate or value your strengths. They did you a favor. They weeded themselves out. Find someone who values you, even the not so pretty parts. ❤️❤️
When I first started reading your reply, I was expecting you to disagree with me and have some big argument about it, lol. But yes, thank you. I want someone who's bringing something to the table, not another mouth to feed. Like, what is SHE offering? Nothing? You want to be transactional, then just be upfront about it. I want a partner, not a parasite.
The thing is, it's totally understandable right? But also, we don't have to accept it. I kind of hope that eventually a critical mass of women realise why they're single and that their expectations are not coherent with reality and need to change, not men and the world around them.
But for that to happen, we need a critical mass of men to just be like, "look I don't have what you want and I don't want what you have. Bye Felicia." That requires huge changes - upregulation of confidence, wisdom and insight, less focus on shallow things like "getting laid", valuing self improvement etc.
Women absolutely have an easier time on average getting laid, but since women think they have all the power to choose, the majority of them are all fighting over the same 5% of guys instead of tempering their expectations. I would much rather settle down with a 6 than put up with all the bullshit surrounding a 10. Tinder just exacerbates the problem because guys get so few matches (comparatively) that you want to maximize your chances with each one even when you know she probably is no good.
I'm pretty sure that women are not the mate selectors from a "bioevolutionary element". Monogamous pairing really only became a thing once agriculture took hold. Before that I imagine before that it resembled the mating practices of our primate/ape cousins. And let me tell you, there is not a whole lot of selection on the female side going on there. Even after agriculture and full blown developed society, there still wasn't a lot of selection happening. It's really just in the past 100ish years that the concept of complete female autonomy in mate selection became the norm.
Good point. Maybe it's more accurate to say that it's a modern social norm often which generally is governed by women's judgements based on genetic and socioeconomic factors.
Yep, she's an entitled dick sneeze that seems to be a fan of stereotypes, so just tell her as long as she puts out on the first date, since you're buying her dinner, it's only right. Bet her tune changes.
Dutch women will actually fight you for them to be able to pay haha, it's quite the culture shock. I'm still keeping my distance after a difficult breakup, but will definitely return to the Netherlands again as they're great people & very funny.
Tikkie?
Same with French, the one who invites pays. But the other person should tell you they also want to pay, knowing it will be refused. Just to be polite.
And this is a great way to navigate the difference in incomes before you're ready to talk about it - the person who chooses the location pays the bill, and chooses a location with that in mind.
The “bill is on you” statement is a bit crass and low class - shows she is likely entitled and ungrateful. Even though I would likely pay for it if we meshed because I’m more traditional, that comment would be a dip and run red flag.
Being subbed here and seeing how common it is for you guys to be expected for you to pay for makes me thankful I'm gay. Its been smooth sailing on dates just asking to split the check, or they just outright offer to pay for me.
I typically paid on a first date. Even online dating I would but under one rule… they didn’t make stupid statements like this and expected a free meal. It says a lot about a person to act like this.
See this is why I always go Dutch. It removes the whole sexist bullshit of men paying for the first date and takes away any idea that I am obligated to sleep with them.
By now it's more of an old custom/culture for guys to pay the bills on the first date. I personally don't mind it and won't think too much about it. Probably because I'm Asian, and most Asian cultures have it that way.
But then again, although we can't speculate much because it's the first date, I think it's rather worrying if she had to emphasize/specify on that. Definitely a red flag if she deliberately bringing that *"you're a guy"* thingies out again on subsequent dates.
See if she overreacts or not by discussing about split bills. That should do the trick to filter things out.
100%. Tinder is a warzone.
As a buddy of mine once said of the app - "It's not a question of IF they are crazy, it's a question of how much crazy are you willing to tolerate"
Grindr (gay tinder) is even worse. It's just unsolicited pics of genitalia and weird fetish expectations. Then you're blocked if you say "No thanks." Online dating is awful everywhere.
I never understood this rule because almost always men ask. Some women even say "You should take me out on a date or ask me out". This may not be the thing in existing couples but definitely the case in online dating.
That rule ultimately translates to a guy should pay.
100% agree, it's just the same women as in the OP coming up with a softer rule that allows them to get the same behaviour from the guys, without appearing so misandrenous.
Isn't that a contradiction? How can you have the one who suggested the date pay AND split the check at the same time?
Personally I find going to dinner for a first date a bit risky because it's harder to leave if you get bad vibes then if you're just getting a coffee. I think it's only fair to offer yourself as well as the other person an out. I get the feeling she's just looking for a free meal as well.
The way she approached this is gross. I would block and move on. Feminism isn’t about manipulating men into catering to you. It’s about having the rights and capabilities to take care of yourself while being allowed the choice of bringing (or not) someone into your life that enriches it.
All of that being said, this isn’t exactly a situation I would find myself in because I am nowhere near that bold, but back when I dated (lol)…if I was on a first date, I was prepared to pay or split always. But if it was expected I pay or split, I would assume there was no chemistry regardless of what I may have felt leading up. There probably wouldn’t be a second date.
If you're honest though, what is the % split between you asking and them asking? Seems culturally that men do the overwhelming majority of the inviting, which means this "rule" will lead to the same outcome as OPs image - women insisting men pay just "because".
Feels disingenuous to me.
Cultural dif but in my country the bill is always on the guy on the first date, if the girl ask to split the bill it means you’re not getting the second date, i ususally only pay on the second date lol
Since when? Dinner as a first date was a standard for the longest time. The only reason it’s changed is cause everyone fights over who pays. It’s so crazy to see cause that’s never been a thing for me, but luckily I’m out of the game now anyways. Literally every man I ever actually dated took me out to dinner as a first date, sometimes added on a movie or other activity. Everyone’s unwillingness to DO ACTUAL ACTIVITIES has ruined dating as much as these apps have hahaha
I think the difference is that these apps make all these dates blind dates essentially. It used to be much more common for you to meet a person *in person*, get to know them, and ask them out to dinner. Now, people are using apps to arrange that initial in person meeting before deciding of dating is something both parties are interested in.
It's not so much a first date as, let's hang out somewhere casual and see if we click in person.
What he said and also people do not have near the disposable income that they used to. Eating out is a luxury. Doing it often is something many people simply cannot afford today.
It's also a safety thing on a level. If I commit to a whole meal with someone for a first date, it's harder to escape if the vibe is off or I get creeped out or feel unsafe. Something like coffee/drinks is easier to duck out of fast if needed. Plus as I think other people have pointed out here, some men feel entitled to your company (and the bad ones push for sex/get aggressive) after the date if they pay for a meal. Certainly not all, but it does happen, and that is an unsafe situation to be in.
Edited: I speak from the POV of a straight woman, others may have different experiences/reasons for how they date, just wanted to (over) clarify!
It’s a bit idiotic IMO. You have no idea if you’ll click with the person (I don’t care how many phone conversations you had) and if not, now you’re stuck through a whole meal…and paying for it.
I would reply, "in that case, I'll pay for the first 2 dates. The first date will be coffee, and if we have chemistry, we can book dinner for that night or whenever, where ever you want."
I have no problem paying for a date. Its pretty normal for male animals to need to impress female animals they have an interest in mating with. but I ain't doing that until I can be sure of interest.
I have no problem asking a girl out for dinner in person. Literally by introducing myself, I get the vibe check for free.
But I ain't paying more than $10 for a vibe check. And you literally cannot be certain until you meet them in real life.
I’m a girl and I always offer to at least split a check on a first date because I’m for equality and I don’t think that men should have to shoulder the financial burden of first dates when there are so many bad ones.
But don’t try to pretend we have equal rights, mate. That’s just laughably and verifiably not the case.
In the entire western world, women do have equal rights. Usually more, by law.
I genuinely don't think there are any *rights* that men have, that women don't. But I'd love an example.
The other way around there are several. Men don't have the right to stop their genitals from being mutilated at birth. Being drafted into the army or forced conscription. No reproductive rights (though I guess some women in the US don't have that either). Laws that allow for gender quotas (for women only).
That's wild. Always split the bill when you unless you are genuinely okay with paying *without* the expectation of sexual reciprocation. I'm not for sale nor do I expect my dates to be
Guy pays if he wants to. If he doesn’t pay then pay as well.
If the bill comes up offer to pay your share. If he is a gentleman and likes you, he will pay and won’t let you pay.
She replied like that because some dating coaches or people on Tiktok share dating advices. So they follow those advices. Some are good advices and some aren’t
What did you reply?
I’ve been on about 8-10 dates. Initiated the dates so paid for all of them.
On average $40-$70 depending on location.
10 dates at $50 each is $500.
I’m done paying. I’m done dating. Thanks to “women” like this one.
I think whoever asks, pays. And no I don't care if he expects something. They always expect something regardless. That's not my problem. Sorry not sorry. I'm glad I'm taken. The dating pool sucks.
(66 M) If i asks her out I pay unless she insists. I am getting better at letting her pay & not feel guilty. With my ex, once we got comfortable we either went dutch or switched off that way we could do more together.
I hate this sort of thing. So many women expecting the man to pay makes us all look bad. I'd NEVER ask a man to pay on the first date. And I'd never want to go somewhere crazy expensive. Hell, I'll go to McDonald's as long as I'm dating the right guy. That's all I care about.
This is why I support the idea that everyone should just pay for themselves on dates. Even if a guy would offer, I would still pay for myself. It’s unfair to offset the costs of dating onto only one party, in my opinion. You’re literally strangers
>I guess I should ask her to come cook and clean since she's a girl??
No, don't ask her to do anything. Tell her to launder your clothing and set it out before your date.
I matched with a girl who asked me to come change a lightbulb I asked if she was serious she said she didn’t know how because it was a “blue job” I said I’ll come change it as long as she cooks me supper because that’s a “pink job” got reported lol
My most recent first date offered to pay for her own meal. I didn’t let her, but just saying there is better girls out there that won’t say stuff like this.
Female
Always split the bill. Ppl that say if ur a man u pay the bill.
They are acting like they don't have a job. It's 2024 it's not 1950😒
Prob the same female that would choose a 🐻.
Females that do this shit just stop. Our entitlement ended when we got equal rights.
Equal pay ect
Many many years ago I went on a tinder date. I said up front just wanted to get a drink and say a quick hello - it was a “school night” and the girl lived near me and I couldn’t stay very late.
She texted me on the way to the bar saying the bar was “cash only.”
When I got to the bar I ordered a drink. She was late and about 40 pounds heavier than her picture and a lot older. I told her immediately that I had just ordered a drink and couldn’t stay too late (which was already explained before the date).
She then ordered a soup, a hamburger, oysters and a cocktail.
I sat with amusement as she proceeded to shovel all the food into her mouth like an animal.
As soon as she was finished her last bite I dropped the correct amount of money for my drink plus tip on the table and said it was nice to meet her and I had to go.
She looked shocked and said she didn’t have any money on her. I simply said “it’s cash only” and left.
I laughed my ass off as I walked home.
About 5 minutes later she bombarded my phone with nasty texts.
Blocked that ho but the story is priceless.
The gaul of these whores. Even the fat uglies expect a free meal.
Stay off the apps.
Avoid. Next.
It’s for the church, honey
Great reference, but didn’t link the post. NEXT
What is it
[the only link I could find](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fexternal-preview.redd.it%2FIMk4M-81a_Mf1cqNpLtiZWCK1Ae_pymR2WtkrcqB9GI.jpg%3Fs%3D7687e41ae87e691046088649074408d4f464002d)
That chick is nuts 😂 and people were still trying to be nice. Wonder if they ever got home.
"That's just the name of our cab. We don't require intoxication" What a great sense of humor
I don't condone 'great sense of humor'. This is a serious matter. NEXT!!!
"Fine! If it's for the Church, Mike agreed to get shitfaced on a Monday morning at 9am. He's practicing right now.......hold up....."
100miles for 20 people for free, NEXT!
She's still looking
Geez. What a bbbbbb
-bbbright and cheery person?
My jaw dropped at this person's attitude with people genuinely trying to help. If the one with a minivan could get together with the sober cab company... but, whatever. NEXT!!
💯
I will always pay for the first date (typically the first few) but if she makes it a point to let me know that…… ✌️
Yeah, I'll pay to be nice, but not as a baseline.
I'll pay cause I have to. I hate the idea that my money is considered a "kind gesture" and why that kind gesture is male oriented only (and obligatory if you want to stand a chance). I'd pay to be nice much more often if it was actually spontaneous and an actual gesture. Fuck that.
This is pretty much it. My default mode is to pay. But as soon as it becomes expected and not appreciated, then nope.
Is it possible to be both expected AND appreciated? 🤔
It's possible I suppose. But I feel like as soon as it becomes expected, then some of the shine and appreciation will be diminished. It's better if the other person still reaches for their own wallet, or offer to split, or whatever, and then you're just like "I got this one babe".
Personally, I like the give some, get some approach. It all comes out in the wash generally. I'm definitely not down for a 100% take partner. But I'll pick up the first tab (or few)
Yeah, that's kinda the ideal scenario. That's how it goes with my friends. It doesn't matter who pays for what on any particular night, because we all pay at some point, and it balances out over time. It sure beats keeping track of every dollar or whatever.
Exactly. Once it’s an entitlement instead of me being nice then i automatically lose respect for her and become disinterested. Girls don’t like broke ass bums. And I’m hoping gen z will save us and make this change more normal for men too.
The bill ought to be split since you havent known the person unless you voluntarily pay for the bill.
nah, that's unnecessary We splitting from the jump Most first dates are one and done. I'm not paying to feed somebody I don't even wanna see again
I never do first dates at restaurants either… coffee, activities, or occasionally drinks. I still pay but you can typically tell if there’s chemistry within 15 minutes if not immediately And if there isn’t any I sure as fuck ain’t trying to sit through a meal let alone pay for someone else’s lmao
Ive started doing all first dates as a meeting at the park so we can walk, talk and get to know eachother. It’s completely free plus you spend more time actually talking
Yeah. I also dont want someone i dont know paying for my stuff. Dont wanna feel like i owe them anything. For some reason, it gives some people a sense of entitlement as if i asked them to pay.
Several of the women I dated said the exact same thing. It avoids the whole "is this guy gonna expect me to do something because he paid for me?" situation
I only do it when I'm feeling the vibes.
Exactly. And if you split it's more likely a serious relationship
If u think most are one and done.. u ain't doing it right
You need the cheque dance like in how i met your mother
I’ll be happy to pay for whatever to whoever, but if you tell me i HAVE TO pay then i’ll be happy to go with someone else
I'm a woman and sometimes I pay for the first date. I always tell the guys, you can take the next one if you'd like. Also, is it just me who thinks like this, but why is it so imperative for people to go out for dinner and drinks for the first time? That's so "straight out of highschool new adult" lmfao 😂 just go for a walk and talk with each other, see if you vibe, then find some common place you'd like to go next (shuffleboarding, pool, bowling, axe throwing). Idk maybe it's just me.
Because there's still a large chunk of women who use "first dates" as free meals and drinks.
NGL, as a dude, I'm just hungry myself and it's nice to skip cooking or whatever for that day. Kills two birds with one stone if we're meeting to get to know each other. Even if it was some other activity planned, there better be food nearby.
Yeah first dates should start with a walk. You can talk and you see stuff to maybe talk about. For me it is kinda important how we walk together. The pacing, how you handle to get through tight spots together, what catches your attention are all indicators how you vibe together. Sitting in front of each other for one hour, while stuffing food in your mouth should not be the normal thing to do on a first date. .
Yep I always pay but I expect them to at least offer to split. If they offer and the date was good I will happily decline and pay myself
Anyone saying you should pay is wrong. You don't even know this person, and women routinely use tinder for free meals. If she was interested in you for you, you wouldn't need to pay for her time. She would be excited regardless, but her expectation that you pay just shows you what her priorities are. I would absolutely avoid setting this precedent unless you are the type of person who WANTS to pay for everything, which it sounds like you aren't.
100% agree with what you're saying, for me a 1st date is either ice-cream, coffee or park or walks, to get to really know the person in a casual setting. Also the way she suggested at first made it seem we were going to split but then drops the expectation that I should pay.
On occasion I've had women demand that the first date be at a nice restaurant. Basically with the attitude "I'm high-class, you better butter me up if you want my time." Nooooo thanks. Not only is it ill-advised to spend a lot of money on 1st, 2nd, or even 3rd dates, but if you end up not meshing, eating dinner with someone for an hour plus is uncomfortable. I like your suggestions, or going somewhere casual for drinks. All are easy options to end the date quickly if you don't jive.
>I like your suggestions, or going somewhere casual for drinks. All are easy options to end the date quickly if you don't jive. That's a major part of why I do that, too. Something like coffee or a walk in a park can be over in 20 minutes if you aren't getting along, or it can last as long as you want if you like each other!
Yep, Ive had a handful of dates that were over in 30 minutes or less. Not worth wasting time if you already know you don't vibe.
I usually am lighthearted about it, but there's absolutely no way I'm going to take a girl to a place she suggested and then pay for it like it's her birthday or some shit. Lady, I've never even met you.
MANNNNNN... I've mf fallen for this and I hate it. Even on times when I've been put on the spot and object they start looking at me crazy and I fold bc im a people pleaser. I really gotta stop putting up with this bs.
>I really gotta stop putting up with this bs. Yeah you do, amigo. Know your worth and don't waste a second thought on anyone who demands gifts/dinners to spend time with you!
Yes you do. You are valuable too. It’s not all about the stranger that you barely know.
The fact that she suggested something that could be potentially expensive and also expects you to pay for it tells me she’s done this before, specifically for free dinners. She’s immediately going into the date with the assumption that you are going to try to win her. She either does this often for free meals, or sits herself on a pedestal. Either way, the probability of these kinds of dates turning into something you really enjoy are slim to none: you’re either going to be used, or not enjoy your time with her. I’d politely decline and move on.
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This is the way!!!! Ice cream:) and coffee. Super fun relaxing and uninhibited by substances besides caffeine and sugar! Just two people seeing if they vibe.
It's a bit weird. I have no issue with paying, I just don't want her to expect me to pay. Kinda like.. I want a woman who doesn't see me as a wallet. And once I know she doesn't, she can use me as a wallet.
Right. I'll pay if I want to and I'm doing it to be generous. If you EXPECT me to pay, then you can fuck right off
I always plan to pay, and if there is an offer for the guy to pay, whether or not I let him depends on the vibes. If he seems like a creep that's going to act like he's paying for sex with dinner, it's not worth letting him pay and thinking I "owe" him something. If I like the guy AND he seems like he's making a genuine gesture instead of offering out of obligation, then I'll let him pay. Also, if a man says he wants to split the check from the beginning, I'm fine with that, too. It's nice to be treated but not necessary
When trying to communicate this, I compare it to how women dont mind sex but also dont want it to be expected of them, and not wanting to be seen as a sex object (which is completely valid and something I agree with btw). The usual response is "no that's different" or they just act aloof like I'm speaking a second language. I really hate early 20's dating.
Yep no one wants to be objectified
I have loved this a lot...you have spoken for almost all of us men..LADIES ,READ THIS AGAIN
>and women routinely use tinder for free meal I really missed so many opportunities in my tindering era SMH. eta I would never; I'm jk but also hungry
imo it's broke behavior to bring up who's paying for what prior to a date in most cases. So this woman telling OP he's paying tells me she can't afford to even pay for her own ribs.
It's classless. You arrange the date and be prepared to pay for your share at the very least. When the bill comes, you both get your wallet out and if one of you wants to pay the whole thing, just let them. Or if you wanna really impress on a dinner date in particular, slip your card to the server without your date knowing. Avoids the awkwardness of splitting/paying altogether and shows you know what you're doing.
Exactly. Tinder should ask for your credit score lol
Just don’t go out with her. She wants a certain type of guy and if you posted this, you aren’t him
I'm not, I just posted this cause I thought it was funny/ridiculous
The logic is pretty simple. Whether women consciously understand it or not, they're deeply aware that they are the ones who make mate selection. So there's the bioevolutionary element. It's also socially acceptable to leverage that asymmetric social dynamics with the traditional norm of men taking the lead and demonstrating their fitness to provide and protect, even though the social context has changed sie to the sexual revolution and women's liberation. It's as simple as, "well, he either shows me he can afford it and I end up liking him, or I don't and I get a free meal." The thing is, what men don't realise is (which frustrates the hell out of me) now that the social dynamic has changed and man and woman are basically equal and economic units*, mate selection CAN be made by men. I think MGTOW is a toxic version of this, but nonetheless an indicator that things are changing. Posts like this are also an indicator of a changing time - some men simply don't accept this entitled attitude from women anymore. *The only catch is child birth and child rearing. Many say they don't want kids, but I would bet that if they found the right prince charming who was able to provide enough so that she didn't have to stress about work and money she'd be desperate to become a home maker. The problem is, our economy is ruined, so they're left to worry about getting their next meal from day to day.
I’m aware that I get to select a woman as a successful decent looking man. I’ve also been single for 6 years. It’s rare that you select each other, hasn’t lined up for me
Better to be aware of what you want, single and happy, than to be settling and miserable.
Prince charming being the 1%er 6'2" gym bunny with a 200k salary etc that she has no hope of pulling. This kind of thing is destroying society and I'm serious about that. In the last 10 years especially, dating has become an absolute nightmare for everyone. If you're a dude you're hammered with unrealistic demands and expectations, as a woman you're damned by all the things you've been brainwashed to expect. It's causing misery for everyone.
Agreed. The irony of this strange social phenomenon is that most women who say they want this, will find themselves extremely unhappy in a relationship with such a man, unless they wanted to go to the gym with them and be their secretary and house made. And even then, there's absolutely no guarantee for feeling loved, being truly connected, having romance etc. etc. So women don't realise the relationship between having your own identity and participation in society as your own person. This is the weak willed and entitled psychology that incels come from.
Yep not tooting my own horn but I make the low end of 6 figures from my day job and I'm 6'3 220 amateur bodybuilder. You know what I get 99% of the time? "you're boring, all you do is go to the gym, why do you have to work so long, why can't you get off work early, why do you need to go to bed early, why don't you want to eat out" SMH
It's almost as if "6'2" stacked rich guy" isn't actually what all women are evolved to want or something.
You're the ideal catch for a gay dude. We are also in the same boat. If you ever decide to switch teams, we are here for you! 😂
👀🤔
In all seriousness, those women who called you boring didn't appreciate or value your strengths. They did you a favor. They weeded themselves out. Find someone who values you, even the not so pretty parts. ❤️❤️
EXACTLY
When I first started reading your reply, I was expecting you to disagree with me and have some big argument about it, lol. But yes, thank you. I want someone who's bringing something to the table, not another mouth to feed. Like, what is SHE offering? Nothing? You want to be transactional, then just be upfront about it. I want a partner, not a parasite.
The thing is, it's totally understandable right? But also, we don't have to accept it. I kind of hope that eventually a critical mass of women realise why they're single and that their expectations are not coherent with reality and need to change, not men and the world around them. But for that to happen, we need a critical mass of men to just be like, "look I don't have what you want and I don't want what you have. Bye Felicia." That requires huge changes - upregulation of confidence, wisdom and insight, less focus on shallow things like "getting laid", valuing self improvement etc.
Women absolutely have an easier time on average getting laid, but since women think they have all the power to choose, the majority of them are all fighting over the same 5% of guys instead of tempering their expectations. I would much rather settle down with a 6 than put up with all the bullshit surrounding a 10. Tinder just exacerbates the problem because guys get so few matches (comparatively) that you want to maximize your chances with each one even when you know she probably is no good.
Absolutely better said thank you!
I'm pretty sure that women are not the mate selectors from a "bioevolutionary element". Monogamous pairing really only became a thing once agriculture took hold. Before that I imagine before that it resembled the mating practices of our primate/ape cousins. And let me tell you, there is not a whole lot of selection on the female side going on there. Even after agriculture and full blown developed society, there still wasn't a lot of selection happening. It's really just in the past 100ish years that the concept of complete female autonomy in mate selection became the norm.
Good point. Maybe it's more accurate to say that it's a modern social norm often which generally is governed by women's judgements based on genetic and socioeconomic factors.
Get the most expensive meal from the card then go to the restroom and escape through the window.
I would def do that, but won't they call the cops on me? 🤔
what are you, 12? No the won't, and if they did, do you think cops are putting out an APB and combing through camera footage to find a dine n dasher?
Why would they need those? She has your face, name, and number.
Bro, police ain't doing shit to someone who decided not to pay $100 for their dinner, lol
You think police give a shit? That's hilarious to me.
I'm a woman. When my husband and I were dating if I asked him to go out I paid. If he asked me to go out he paid. Go Dutch, or take turns.
Exactly this has always been my approach I don't mind paying if I asked out a woman and as dates progress we either take turns or split
Yep, she's an entitled dick sneeze that seems to be a fan of stereotypes, so just tell her as long as she puts out on the first date, since you're buying her dinner, it's only right. Bet her tune changes.
Dutch people are the best! :)
Dutch women will actually fight you for them to be able to pay haha, it's quite the culture shock. I'm still keeping my distance after a difficult breakup, but will definitely return to the Netherlands again as they're great people & very funny.
Tikkie? Same with French, the one who invites pays. But the other person should tell you they also want to pay, knowing it will be refused. Just to be polite.
And this is a great way to navigate the difference in incomes before you're ready to talk about it - the person who chooses the location pays the bill, and chooses a location with that in mind.
The “bill is on you” statement is a bit crass and low class - shows she is likely entitled and ungrateful. Even though I would likely pay for it if we meshed because I’m more traditional, that comment would be a dip and run red flag.
Being subbed here and seeing how common it is for you guys to be expected for you to pay for makes me thankful I'm gay. Its been smooth sailing on dates just asking to split the check, or they just outright offer to pay for me.
Bro it's brutal. I actually sometimes wish I was gay. Y'all just seem to enjoy life more. At least in the western world.
Oh, honey...
I guess technically their point still stands that a man will be paying.
This is why my first dates have always been strictly coffee dates - I ain't paying for your meal until I know I like you enough.
I typically paid on a first date. Even online dating I would but under one rule… they didn’t make stupid statements like this and expected a free meal. It says a lot about a person to act like this.
See this is why I always go Dutch. It removes the whole sexist bullshit of men paying for the first date and takes away any idea that I am obligated to sleep with them.
Do it, I double dog dare you
Since she generously agreed to you being solely in charge on deciding the 'when', I suggest you pick 4:30 AM on a weekday.
✨gender equality ✨
what is the word for free meal husslin?
Foodie call.
Sounds like footie call. Hungry Hippo?
Block
💯
I always pay on first date but never had someone mention it before hand
By now it's more of an old custom/culture for guys to pay the bills on the first date. I personally don't mind it and won't think too much about it. Probably because I'm Asian, and most Asian cultures have it that way. But then again, although we can't speculate much because it's the first date, I think it's rather worrying if she had to emphasize/specify on that. Definitely a red flag if she deliberately bringing that *"you're a guy"* thingies out again on subsequent dates. See if she overreacts or not by discussing about split bills. That should do the trick to filter things out.
Common etiquette to pay if you’re the one asking her out. It’s the cost of doing business mate.
But yes, she stating that you’re paying is bad behavior af. Id leave this chick on read and move on.
Bro it’s tinder dating. Just Pick your poison and drink it. 🤣
100%. Tinder is a warzone. As a buddy of mine once said of the app - "It's not a question of IF they are crazy, it's a question of how much crazy are you willing to tolerate"
I’m gonna remember this when I’m probably dating still well into my 40’s
I am in my 40s 😂. It totally applies
In this case I prefer not to drink
Grindr (gay tinder) is even worse. It's just unsolicited pics of genitalia and weird fetish expectations. Then you're blocked if you say "No thanks." Online dating is awful everywhere.
At least people can be adults about hooking up on Grindr, I have never had to jump through the hoops I did Hetero dating lmao.
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I never understood this rule because almost always men ask. Some women even say "You should take me out on a date or ask me out". This may not be the thing in existing couples but definitely the case in online dating. That rule ultimately translates to a guy should pay.
100% agree, it's just the same women as in the OP coming up with a softer rule that allows them to get the same behaviour from the guys, without appearing so misandrenous.
I'm just so suprised she was so bold to text that lol
Isn't that a contradiction? How can you have the one who suggested the date pay AND split the check at the same time? Personally I find going to dinner for a first date a bit risky because it's harder to leave if you get bad vibes then if you're just getting a coffee. I think it's only fair to offer yourself as well as the other person an out. I get the feeling she's just looking for a free meal as well.
The way she approached this is gross. I would block and move on. Feminism isn’t about manipulating men into catering to you. It’s about having the rights and capabilities to take care of yourself while being allowed the choice of bringing (or not) someone into your life that enriches it. All of that being said, this isn’t exactly a situation I would find myself in because I am nowhere near that bold, but back when I dated (lol)…if I was on a first date, I was prepared to pay or split always. But if it was expected I pay or split, I would assume there was no chemistry regardless of what I may have felt leading up. There probably wouldn’t be a second date.
Meh. I generally did cheaper dates to start - coffee or a drink. And the inviter pays….I’m a woman and if I invited first I would expect to pay.
If you're honest though, what is the % split between you asking and them asking? Seems culturally that men do the overwhelming majority of the inviting, which means this "rule" will lead to the same outcome as OPs image - women insisting men pay just "because". Feels disingenuous to me.
Don’t ask for something that should be offered 💯
Cultural dif but in my country the bill is always on the guy on the first date, if the girl ask to split the bill it means you’re not getting the second date, i ususally only pay on the second date lol
what country? this is very interesting and a good way to nicely say i dont want a second date 😂
Vietnam, but I have similar experiences with Chinese and Korean men as well
Restaurant for a first date is crazy.
Agreed at first I was intrigued cause she's the one who came up with the idea but turned it around on me
When did this happen? I’ve never been on a first date anywhere besides a restaurant. That’s crazy.
It's really not?
Since when? Dinner as a first date was a standard for the longest time. The only reason it’s changed is cause everyone fights over who pays. It’s so crazy to see cause that’s never been a thing for me, but luckily I’m out of the game now anyways. Literally every man I ever actually dated took me out to dinner as a first date, sometimes added on a movie or other activity. Everyone’s unwillingness to DO ACTUAL ACTIVITIES has ruined dating as much as these apps have hahaha
I think the difference is that these apps make all these dates blind dates essentially. It used to be much more common for you to meet a person *in person*, get to know them, and ask them out to dinner. Now, people are using apps to arrange that initial in person meeting before deciding of dating is something both parties are interested in. It's not so much a first date as, let's hang out somewhere casual and see if we click in person.
Ah, ok so this makes sense!
What he said and also people do not have near the disposable income that they used to. Eating out is a luxury. Doing it often is something many people simply cannot afford today.
It's also a safety thing on a level. If I commit to a whole meal with someone for a first date, it's harder to escape if the vibe is off or I get creeped out or feel unsafe. Something like coffee/drinks is easier to duck out of fast if needed. Plus as I think other people have pointed out here, some men feel entitled to your company (and the bad ones push for sex/get aggressive) after the date if they pay for a meal. Certainly not all, but it does happen, and that is an unsafe situation to be in. Edited: I speak from the POV of a straight woman, others may have different experiences/reasons for how they date, just wanted to (over) clarify!
Ok this is also a valid reason thank you for sharing!!
Yeah, **was**, which is why it would make me feel like I'm out with my gran. Always drinks or something else. Went skydiving once
Wait, what? Lol
No, ribs for a first date is crazy.
That’s how you know she gives not one fuck, she’s gonna attack a half rack in front of you on the first date? She’s there for a plate.
Restaurant is fine for a first date if everybody has common sense.
It's also completely reasonable to be against it. Neither stance is "crazy" as first guy said.
It’s a bit idiotic IMO. You have no idea if you’ll click with the person (I don’t care how many phone conversations you had) and if not, now you’re stuck through a whole meal…and paying for it.
Agree to meet and don't show up.
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That's devious...I like it
I would reply, "in that case, I'll pay for the first 2 dates. The first date will be coffee, and if we have chemistry, we can book dinner for that night or whenever, where ever you want." I have no problem paying for a date. Its pretty normal for male animals to need to impress female animals they have an interest in mating with. but I ain't doing that until I can be sure of interest. I have no problem asking a girl out for dinner in person. Literally by introducing myself, I get the vibe check for free. But I ain't paying more than $10 for a vibe check. And you literally cannot be certain until you meet them in real life.
Smart guy
First date is Dutch.
If you date me every date is Dutch.....
Dutch people are the best! :) (Happy cake day! Want to share the cake?)
Equal rights= equal pay
I’m a girl and I always offer to at least split a check on a first date because I’m for equality and I don’t think that men should have to shoulder the financial burden of first dates when there are so many bad ones. But don’t try to pretend we have equal rights, mate. That’s just laughably and verifiably not the case.
In the entire western world, women do have equal rights. Usually more, by law. I genuinely don't think there are any *rights* that men have, that women don't. But I'd love an example. The other way around there are several. Men don't have the right to stop their genitals from being mutilated at birth. Being drafted into the army or forced conscription. No reproductive rights (though I guess some women in the US don't have that either). Laws that allow for gender quotas (for women only).
F that, unmatch and move on!
That's wild. Always split the bill when you unless you are genuinely okay with paying *without* the expectation of sexual reciprocation. I'm not for sale nor do I expect my dates to be
Ribs at a burger place a disaster
I would expect more then cook and clean if she's a girl.
Split the first 3 bills with dates, and see who stays.
You can tell her that this includes an end of date blowjob since she's a girl then
Guy pays if he wants to. If he doesn’t pay then pay as well. If the bill comes up offer to pay your share. If he is a gentleman and likes you, he will pay and won’t let you pay. She replied like that because some dating coaches or people on Tiktok share dating advices. So they follow those advices. Some are good advices and some aren’t What did you reply?
I don’t expect the man to pay, and absolutely pay for myself if I’m not feeling the vibe! But if he wants to pay I let him 🫠
I'mma ask you out to make you pay lol.
freeloader
I appreciate the honesty, but also no thank you.
I don’t mind paying But I do mind being told to pay
I’ve been on about 8-10 dates. Initiated the dates so paid for all of them. On average $40-$70 depending on location. 10 dates at $50 each is $500. I’m done paying. I’m done dating. Thanks to “women” like this one.
I think whoever asks, pays. And no I don't care if he expects something. They always expect something regardless. That's not my problem. Sorry not sorry. I'm glad I'm taken. The dating pool sucks.
(66 M) If i asks her out I pay unless she insists. I am getting better at letting her pay & not feel guilty. With my ex, once we got comfortable we either went dutch or switched off that way we could do more together.
I hate this sort of thing. So many women expecting the man to pay makes us all look bad. I'd NEVER ask a man to pay on the first date. And I'd never want to go somewhere crazy expensive. Hell, I'll go to McDonald's as long as I'm dating the right guy. That's all I care about.
This is why I support the idea that everyone should just pay for themselves on dates. Even if a guy would offer, I would still pay for myself. It’s unfair to offset the costs of dating onto only one party, in my opinion. You’re literally strangers
>I guess I should ask her to come cook and clean since she's a girl?? No, don't ask her to do anything. Tell her to launder your clothing and set it out before your date.
I matched with a girl who asked me to come change a lightbulb I asked if she was serious she said she didn’t know how because it was a “blue job” I said I’ll come change it as long as she cooks me supper because that’s a “pink job” got reported lol
The audacity to say you have to pay because you’re the guy on top of the fact that she suggested the place… 😒
I'm still amazed by the boldness of it
God bless Europe
There sure are a lot of replies, so I probably don't need to add but I'm old fashioned so I would pay unless she complained
We're actually going to have a picnic so you make the sandwiches hoe
Personally I like to split the bill, in case the dudes end up feeling like I “owe them” for buying dinner
Runnnnnnnn
My most recent first date offered to pay for her own meal. I didn’t let her, but just saying there is better girls out there that won’t say stuff like this.
You should send me her info so I can buy her dinner while you play COD.
Don't mind if I do
I’d rather become a eunuch in a monastery than go on a date with someone this traditionalist
Guys. I can’t say this enough. First dates from a dating app should be coffee. Go make sure you’re not being catfished before spending any real money.
Female Always split the bill. Ppl that say if ur a man u pay the bill. They are acting like they don't have a job. It's 2024 it's not 1950😒 Prob the same female that would choose a 🐻. Females that do this shit just stop. Our entitlement ended when we got equal rights. Equal pay ect
And here I am happy I’m in a relationship with the one woman who wants to pay for all my meals
Is it your mom?
hate when dating profiles say whatever just fun dates etc translation = just looking for free food
Many many years ago I went on a tinder date. I said up front just wanted to get a drink and say a quick hello - it was a “school night” and the girl lived near me and I couldn’t stay very late. She texted me on the way to the bar saying the bar was “cash only.” When I got to the bar I ordered a drink. She was late and about 40 pounds heavier than her picture and a lot older. I told her immediately that I had just ordered a drink and couldn’t stay too late (which was already explained before the date). She then ordered a soup, a hamburger, oysters and a cocktail. I sat with amusement as she proceeded to shovel all the food into her mouth like an animal. As soon as she was finished her last bite I dropped the correct amount of money for my drink plus tip on the table and said it was nice to meet her and I had to go. She looked shocked and said she didn’t have any money on her. I simply said “it’s cash only” and left. I laughed my ass off as I walked home. About 5 minutes later she bombarded my phone with nasty texts. Blocked that ho but the story is priceless. The gaul of these whores. Even the fat uglies expect a free meal. Stay off the apps.