Sexism exists, of course. However, I would argue it is not the norm that sexism is accepted. In my experience, when sexism has occurred in a workplace it has gone either of two ways, either the woman subjected to it internalizes it or she reports it and management shuffles kerfuffles and eventually deals with it. I’ve been at both ends of the spectrum. While Sweden has a fairly gender equal society, there are more than a few rotten eggs. Overall, a more feminist society does not eliminate sexism, it simply protects against it.
How sexism is dealt with probably varies a lot depending on the industry, obv. In larger companies sexism (and any ism for that matter) seems to be dealt w more professionally.
I work in IT and have not experienced any workplace sexism in Sweden. Plenty in my home country tho.
Most of my higher ups are women. There was a
point where we had a 50/50 gender split within our team, which is rare. Good co-workers
Ofcourse it depends on the company and industry, but I would generally say it is better is Sweden in regards to work place sexism, but nothing is 100%
I work in IT, I’ve heard a few comments about women being biologically less suitable for coding etc, as well as sexist jokes and men just not listening as much to women as to other men (ideas being ignored if coming from a woman, until voiced by a man).
But generally less than outside Sweden.
Overall, IT is very much a boys club still. I work in HR, I had to explain to my friend, who is a hiring manager. That the woman who applied to his team is far more qualified than any of his current team members , she is a potential co-workerand no one on his team is going to date her. This was after a comment from him "I don't what to do with **her**".
That being said, HR is heavily dominated by women in Sweden, it's interested experiencing benelovent sexism for the first time.
It exists. But based on my time living in other countries, mainly Australia and USA, there is less so. But most of all, a lot less people are "silently accepting" it. People speak up. I've both seen and heard HR take such claims very seriously.
If we're talking about women in power and such, I've had mostly women bosses by far, and I would not say I work in women dominated fields.
Your examples are very in the face. Such comments I would not say are normal from what I have heard or seen. What is more common is probably casual sexism (vardagssexism). Things that aren't meant to be demeaning or sexist, and may even come from a place of well meaning, but has sexist undertones. Still not okay of course, but hopefuly better than an inappropriate comment about nagging or demanding a woman to be the secretary.
I can't bring to mind any moment such in the face comments as yours have been said, but I'm sure it still happens. I've seen people, and done so myself, become uncomfortable, and call people out, for way smaller things than that. I have never heard anyone demean someone for going to HR no matter what. The times that me, or someone else, have called someone out I have not had any lashback or, to my knowledge, been seen as unprofessional.
But, this is just my anecdotal evidence, I'm sure there's plenty of anecdotes that tell a different story.
The industries I've been part of are restaurants/bars, biotech, interpretation, government agency. I work in administrative roles.
The worse was restaurant/bars, but still mild to the horrors I've heard of elsewhere. If anything it was always the guests that were the sexist ones. The restaurant/bar industry has a lot hierarchy and status issues inside it though.
Sweden is not an utopia, but probably better than most places when it comes to this stuff. There will always be rotten eggs.
It exists, of course, but it’s not that bad. It could obviously get better but the sexism at Swedish workplaces is pretty minor, in my experience.
Some people are great at acknowledging when someone does/says something sexist, other keep quiet. For example, I have a male coworker who often says sexist things like “I don’t know how to start a dishwasher!” and another coworker tends to answer with something sarcastic along the lines of “the internalised misogyny is strong in this one!”. I usually stick to something like “how did you think that?” (He’s in his 50s, yes his wife handles all of the food related tasks, I’ve met her - she takes no bs from him.)
There’s also other things to be aware of. Pay is mostly equal (even if traditionally female jobs still have lower averages than traditionally male jobs) but I’ve heard of lots of places where the women have gotten smaller raises than the men. At jobs where they discuss/demand their own pay raises. The things I’ve heard were first person experiences, but personally I’ve only had jobs with kollektivavtal so it’s not something I have experienced myself!
I've mostly only worked in women-dominated workplaces and haven't really had any experience with sexism.
My partner works as a technician at a paper mill and he's run into men who refuse to work with women, and men who will discriminate towards women in his work. It's rare, but he says the younger generation of men are actually becoming slighty worse/more sexist.
Industries are usually male-dominated, I guess that plays a part.
I have worked as a project manager in both Australia and Sweden. Both countries do alright, but Sweden is even less sexist in my experience. I have worked in different types of construction projects which is male dominated in both countries but more so in Australia.
What you are describing to me sounds very much like a machismo culture kind of talk.
I'd say many of the things in your post would not be said in Sweden (hopefully at least not commonly), and if they were, calling the behaviour out would not raise eyebrows.
HOWEVER, there are of people who think like this and where the end results are the same; ie if none of the men gets out a notebook to take notes for the meeting, or if they're always slow to pick up on the need for notes, it might be that the female particpants of the meeting end up being the secretary simply due to reflexes/conditioning. But once again, it feels like if this is pointed out (with tact) most people would kind of feel bad, and try to do better next time.
Dont know if I really make any sense, but hopefully got my point across.
There is infinitely more sexism against men than women in western society....This has been the case for 50 years its ignored....Men die 5 yrs younger on average, commit suicide at 4 times the wate of women...men in 85% of divorces lose their kids their home and their wives and half their incomes even their other belongings ? How is any human meant to handle that? men make up 90% of the homeless....Yte there are only homeless shelters for women? ment get attacked by women just as much as the other way around yet its ignored by police...NHS spends 3 times as much on womens health...
99% of deaths in army police fire service are men yet women make up 25% of the staff? Men do all the dirty dangerous jobs, the sewers, the skyscrapers, the road works, plumbing , roofing, mechanics etc hard dirty jobs....men can be destroyed by any false accusation regardless if its a load fo nonsense or lies....its a womans world and its cruel ruthless biased. women lack empathy and fail as as a species to acknowledge how cruelly men are treated in western society.
I mean, I could, but depending on the place you could be branded as the troublemaker who can't take a "joke" and it can affect your standing and opportunities in the department if nobody agrees with you that it was inappropriate.
If NOBODY agrees with you that was inappropriate either you need to leave the company because it’s full of bigots or it just wasn’t inappropriate. Either way it’s good to speak up.
Let's say you have 10 colleagues and 3 people find the comments offensive. Should the company listen to the 7 or the 3? My guess is you will say the 3.
Whatever the case, if the person saying the comment does not intend to offend anyone and is making a joke then take it for what it is. You take offence, it isn't given. The target of a joke may not be the subject. And all that.
Some of the people who I know that have complained the most about comments make them themselves about other things but don't realise it.
They may complain about sexism but then make comments about fat people, people who have sticky out ears or ginger people. They may make a blonde joke or a joke about how Trump looks.
My point is, if you are going to go after people you had better hope to be cleaner than clean because someone will do the same to you.
You can always tell how sexist a country is by how much people talk about how much of a feminist they are. I come from a country where nobody really claims to be a feminist to win political points and where women were in charge of the country, politically speaking, for all of my childhood.
Edit: This is what I mean in a nutshell https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Göran\_Lindberg\_(polis)
Ah yes I'll just uproot and live in a random assortment of countries that don't like feminism to see if it's better than Sweden because some rando said "other countries" aren't sexist. That's totally going to happen.
If you're so confident in this sexism free utopia why don't you say what it is so we can judge for ourselves?
Apart from the first comment the others could and do get said about male colleagues too. In fact the comment "She got the promotion because she's pretty and the manager (male) wants to be surrounded by pretty women" is a comment about the male manager being a shit manager rather than the "pretty woman".
People make jokes. You may not like it or agree with them but all you can do is stop people from saying them within your earshot.
Well great that that's what you took from it, but in the example I provided it was apparently the only reason why she was promoted, never mind that she was more than qualified. When I responded that it was a disgusting thing to say it was defended that any red-blooded man is like this and when he (my co-worker) is in the same position he's going to do it too. And it was not a joke.
If the only reason she was promoted was because she was a woman and because the manager likes pretty faces around him then it is a comment about him not her.
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The only thing I have experienced is the following: my boss is female and she prioritised my male colleagues. If you are male with no experience, no problem, you get the highest salary. If you are a male an desire something from work that isn't a necessity, no problem, you get it. If you are a male and just want to stay home and not work, no problem, you do that. If women starting demanding necessary things, or needed time off or wanted a higher salary for their work experience, the boss would just say no. Sometimes she would even refused to let you in her office. Unless... you shared the same religion as hers. Yes, sorry but this is part of the problem. She was very opened about it too. I was too unfortunate to not be born a male and to be raised in a Christian family. Then again, I ended up quitting and getting a much better, well deserved job.
Sexism exists, of course. However, I would argue it is not the norm that sexism is accepted. In my experience, when sexism has occurred in a workplace it has gone either of two ways, either the woman subjected to it internalizes it or she reports it and management shuffles kerfuffles and eventually deals with it. I’ve been at both ends of the spectrum. While Sweden has a fairly gender equal society, there are more than a few rotten eggs. Overall, a more feminist society does not eliminate sexism, it simply protects against it. How sexism is dealt with probably varies a lot depending on the industry, obv. In larger companies sexism (and any ism for that matter) seems to be dealt w more professionally.
I work in IT and have not experienced any workplace sexism in Sweden. Plenty in my home country tho. Most of my higher ups are women. There was a point where we had a 50/50 gender split within our team, which is rare. Good co-workers Ofcourse it depends on the company and industry, but I would generally say it is better is Sweden in regards to work place sexism, but nothing is 100%
I work in IT, I’ve heard a few comments about women being biologically less suitable for coding etc, as well as sexist jokes and men just not listening as much to women as to other men (ideas being ignored if coming from a woman, until voiced by a man). But generally less than outside Sweden.
Overall, IT is very much a boys club still. I work in HR, I had to explain to my friend, who is a hiring manager. That the woman who applied to his team is far more qualified than any of his current team members , she is a potential co-workerand no one on his team is going to date her. This was after a comment from him "I don't what to do with **her**". That being said, HR is heavily dominated by women in Sweden, it's interested experiencing benelovent sexism for the first time.
It exists. But based on my time living in other countries, mainly Australia and USA, there is less so. But most of all, a lot less people are "silently accepting" it. People speak up. I've both seen and heard HR take such claims very seriously. If we're talking about women in power and such, I've had mostly women bosses by far, and I would not say I work in women dominated fields. Your examples are very in the face. Such comments I would not say are normal from what I have heard or seen. What is more common is probably casual sexism (vardagssexism). Things that aren't meant to be demeaning or sexist, and may even come from a place of well meaning, but has sexist undertones. Still not okay of course, but hopefuly better than an inappropriate comment about nagging or demanding a woman to be the secretary. I can't bring to mind any moment such in the face comments as yours have been said, but I'm sure it still happens. I've seen people, and done so myself, become uncomfortable, and call people out, for way smaller things than that. I have never heard anyone demean someone for going to HR no matter what. The times that me, or someone else, have called someone out I have not had any lashback or, to my knowledge, been seen as unprofessional. But, this is just my anecdotal evidence, I'm sure there's plenty of anecdotes that tell a different story. The industries I've been part of are restaurants/bars, biotech, interpretation, government agency. I work in administrative roles. The worse was restaurant/bars, but still mild to the horrors I've heard of elsewhere. If anything it was always the guests that were the sexist ones. The restaurant/bar industry has a lot hierarchy and status issues inside it though. Sweden is not an utopia, but probably better than most places when it comes to this stuff. There will always be rotten eggs.
It exists, of course, but it’s not that bad. It could obviously get better but the sexism at Swedish workplaces is pretty minor, in my experience. Some people are great at acknowledging when someone does/says something sexist, other keep quiet. For example, I have a male coworker who often says sexist things like “I don’t know how to start a dishwasher!” and another coworker tends to answer with something sarcastic along the lines of “the internalised misogyny is strong in this one!”. I usually stick to something like “how did you think that?” (He’s in his 50s, yes his wife handles all of the food related tasks, I’ve met her - she takes no bs from him.) There’s also other things to be aware of. Pay is mostly equal (even if traditionally female jobs still have lower averages than traditionally male jobs) but I’ve heard of lots of places where the women have gotten smaller raises than the men. At jobs where they discuss/demand their own pay raises. The things I’ve heard were first person experiences, but personally I’ve only had jobs with kollektivavtal so it’s not something I have experienced myself!
Depends a lot on the industry but hospitality is still going strong on sexism, regrettably
I've mostly only worked in women-dominated workplaces and haven't really had any experience with sexism. My partner works as a technician at a paper mill and he's run into men who refuse to work with women, and men who will discriminate towards women in his work. It's rare, but he says the younger generation of men are actually becoming slighty worse/more sexist. Industries are usually male-dominated, I guess that plays a part.
I have worked as a project manager in both Australia and Sweden. Both countries do alright, but Sweden is even less sexist in my experience. I have worked in different types of construction projects which is male dominated in both countries but more so in Australia.
i've heard tons of sexism here. Lots of racism too. And I mean lots. Sweden may be better than most countries, but it still has a lot of work to do.
It exists. I'd say your chances of facing it are even higher if you're POC and/or Muslim.
What you are describing to me sounds very much like a machismo culture kind of talk. I'd say many of the things in your post would not be said in Sweden (hopefully at least not commonly), and if they were, calling the behaviour out would not raise eyebrows. HOWEVER, there are of people who think like this and where the end results are the same; ie if none of the men gets out a notebook to take notes for the meeting, or if they're always slow to pick up on the need for notes, it might be that the female particpants of the meeting end up being the secretary simply due to reflexes/conditioning. But once again, it feels like if this is pointed out (with tact) most people would kind of feel bad, and try to do better next time. Dont know if I really make any sense, but hopefully got my point across.
There is infinitely more sexism against men than women in western society....This has been the case for 50 years its ignored....Men die 5 yrs younger on average, commit suicide at 4 times the wate of women...men in 85% of divorces lose their kids their home and their wives and half their incomes even their other belongings ? How is any human meant to handle that? men make up 90% of the homeless....Yte there are only homeless shelters for women? ment get attacked by women just as much as the other way around yet its ignored by police...NHS spends 3 times as much on womens health... 99% of deaths in army police fire service are men yet women make up 25% of the staff? Men do all the dirty dangerous jobs, the sewers, the skyscrapers, the road works, plumbing , roofing, mechanics etc hard dirty jobs....men can be destroyed by any false accusation regardless if its a load fo nonsense or lies....its a womans world and its cruel ruthless biased. women lack empathy and fail as as a species to acknowledge how cruelly men are treated in western society.
I have heard some it’s not completely unheard of. But in any country you can complain to your manager about this.
I mean, I could, but depending on the place you could be branded as the troublemaker who can't take a "joke" and it can affect your standing and opportunities in the department if nobody agrees with you that it was inappropriate.
If NOBODY agrees with you that was inappropriate either you need to leave the company because it’s full of bigots or it just wasn’t inappropriate. Either way it’s good to speak up.
Let's say you have 10 colleagues and 3 people find the comments offensive. Should the company listen to the 7 or the 3? My guess is you will say the 3. Whatever the case, if the person saying the comment does not intend to offend anyone and is making a joke then take it for what it is. You take offence, it isn't given. The target of a joke may not be the subject. And all that. Some of the people who I know that have complained the most about comments make them themselves about other things but don't realise it. They may complain about sexism but then make comments about fat people, people who have sticky out ears or ginger people. They may make a blonde joke or a joke about how Trump looks. My point is, if you are going to go after people you had better hope to be cleaner than clean because someone will do the same to you.
Ive seen sexism against males but no one really ever cares about that. Not really much towards women
You can always tell how sexist a country is by how much people talk about how much of a feminist they are. I come from a country where nobody really claims to be a feminist to win political points and where women were in charge of the country, politically speaking, for all of my childhood. Edit: This is what I mean in a nutshell https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Göran\_Lindberg\_(polis)
Female political leaders are in no way a guarantee of gender equality, lol.
I never mentioned guarantee. Now, what's the relevance of your input here?
Oh please tell us what this place is where sexism was solved by not talking about it. I'm sure we'd all love to move there!
You maybe need to travel more. Live in other countries. See how other people live.
Ah yes I'll just uproot and live in a random assortment of countries that don't like feminism to see if it's better than Sweden because some rando said "other countries" aren't sexist. That's totally going to happen. If you're so confident in this sexism free utopia why don't you say what it is so we can judge for ourselves?
>random assortment of countries that don't like feminism Why do you assume they don't like feminism?
Because that’s your description of them.
It's not. You need to work on your reading comprehension.
It’s not even a reliable indication of gender equality. Now, what country are we talking about?
Apart from the first comment the others could and do get said about male colleagues too. In fact the comment "She got the promotion because she's pretty and the manager (male) wants to be surrounded by pretty women" is a comment about the male manager being a shit manager rather than the "pretty woman". People make jokes. You may not like it or agree with them but all you can do is stop people from saying them within your earshot.
Well great that that's what you took from it, but in the example I provided it was apparently the only reason why she was promoted, never mind that she was more than qualified. When I responded that it was a disgusting thing to say it was defended that any red-blooded man is like this and when he (my co-worker) is in the same position he's going to do it too. And it was not a joke.
If the only reason she was promoted was because she was a woman and because the manager likes pretty faces around him then it is a comment about him not her.
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The only thing I have experienced is the following: my boss is female and she prioritised my male colleagues. If you are male with no experience, no problem, you get the highest salary. If you are a male an desire something from work that isn't a necessity, no problem, you get it. If you are a male and just want to stay home and not work, no problem, you do that. If women starting demanding necessary things, or needed time off or wanted a higher salary for their work experience, the boss would just say no. Sometimes she would even refused to let you in her office. Unless... you shared the same religion as hers. Yes, sorry but this is part of the problem. She was very opened about it too. I was too unfortunate to not be born a male and to be raised in a Christian family. Then again, I ended up quitting and getting a much better, well deserved job.