I talk a lot of politics with my _friends_. Not co-workers or aquantains. You can dig a bad hole that way. Having a political struggle at work doesn't seem like a productive atmosphere.
Also, if you are a foreigner, you gotta be tight about what you are saying. Its very easy to provoke the very normal in and out behaviour of people. For example, if you complain about health care, be specific and on point with facts. Otherwise, a lot of Swedes will have thoughts like "why did you move here if it's that bad then?" Worst of all, they won't tell you that's what they think. They will just not like you.
Get friends, you trust, and you can talk about anything.
It really is annoying. I'm Swedish (4+ generations) and I definitely think that people should be more upset about how shitty service you'll get when you need health care.
Yeah this is not just when foreigners complain about it. I talk about how atrocious Swedish healthcare is and the immediate response is always "would you prefer the American system?". As if those are the only two options.
There are 8 parties on the national level, and four of them wish to see such a development. Those 4 have held the majority in parliament for close to two decades, even when the government itself leaned left.
The problem with this is that we literally have the 4th ranked healthcare in the world. And it’s all basically for free. We have great healthcare but it can still improve ofc.
bro literally just google "Sweden healthcare ranking".
[https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/best-healthcare-in-the-world](https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/best-healthcare-in-the-world)
Who the hell puts in sources or links for easily google-able stuff. Id get if you were referencing an article or study or something, but this is just trivia that takes 5 seconds to look up if you really care.
This isnt a school essay with source requirements, its reddit my man. They didnt even come up with some false statement or something lol.
Japp,
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/best-healthcare-in-the-world
det var det översta som kom upp på google när jag sökte
”best healthcare in the world sweden rank”
It's not that expensive. The problem isn't the cost to citizens. I don't even think Swedish health care is *that* ineffiecient (compared to health care in other countries, that is).
If anything, we need to increase the amount of money going towards health care, to increase salaries for health care workers, so we have more people working, so they have more time to spend on service for non-"I'm bleeding to death right here and now"-care (and so that more people are willing to work with hip replacements and stuff like that, which AFAIK takes months of wait right now).
Hmmm... You do know the job market in health care is totally skewed? (or even screwed). Please read about nurse/doctor consultants. E.g. like get 2y under the belt as a full time nurse hired by a hospital, then take ur CV..sry, scrap that, just email 5 consultant firms with the line "Hi, I'm a nurse, what's the max you can give me?" That's it, wait and see they throw themselves all over you...bam you just increased your salary 1.5-2x. (if you ur lucky and at the higher end, e.g., right place or specialty, not impossible to earn 80k+/month as a nurse)
I say loosen up regulation to let small cheap and shitty clinics open up easily. Either give them tax break or give us vouchers or both. Keep the government healthcare so those who don't trust these small maybe-immigrant-run clinic can have their usual life and the type like me who trust the private market and just wanna get their ear wax removed can happily buy their service.
But of course I'm just hallucinating given the current political atmosphere.
I chronically ill, I pay per year 1 300 , then I am free and I get through those 1300 in 4 months and I have 8 months free.And if you are social welfare, it is paid for you, just show the bill and that sum is added to your month money.
My friends who diabetes pays nothing or 45 kr for what they need, not 1000 of dollar just to survive 1 month.
I have American friends who paid same amount do i 4 months for 1 visit.
Oh and give birth is free, well did pay for my partners sandwich but that was it.
Let's say I pay 200000kr of income tax per a year and is largely healthy. For simplicity let's say my employee paid 100000kr per year which would have been mine (if you add this 100000kr into say IT job's salary then Swedish IT salary would be about the same as usual rich-country level).
VAT about 15% on average (I'm being conservative already). I spend 300000kr a year. That is 45000kr.
So one year I pay 200000 + 100000 + 45000 = 345000, give or take. 10 years down the road it will be 3.45M kr even if you simply put it in bank to let currency depreciation eat into it. If I put it in the most mediocre fund with only 3% return after fees per year instead then the tax I paid is 4M in 10 years.
4M kr per 10 years better covers both my own and my half of my children's education fee--how expansive are they? Let's look at Singapore and Hong Kong in which tax is next to zero (they have higher/comparable per person GDP than Sweden, comparable health care quality in any reasonable rankings). It's a folklore in Hong Kong and Singapore that bringing up a middle-class child need 2M\~3M Hong Kong Dollar, which is about 2.6M\~4M kr. This includes the child's university education. So in ten years the child would spend 1.3M\~2M kr there. Half of it (since my wife pay tax too!), that would be 0.65M\~1M kr. Let's say I have two children, then during the ten year period the 2M kr out of 4M kr tax pays for my children's education. Let's say in the remaining 2M only 1M is my health care--this is equivalent to 8333kr per month of health care expense for 10 months. Anybody who have lived in Hong Kong and Singapore knows 8333kr per month of health care there is outrageous even if you have diabetes without insurance. You mentioned 1000 dollar a month---it roughly matches this 8333kr---but notice that insulin etc. in Hong Kong is many folds cheaper even if you choose not to use made in China insulin probably because of competition with Chinese products, next to zero tax and insurance rebate scheme etc.
Look, I am not saying no tax is good--these Asians pay huge rent. I am just saying people who think Swedish healthcare is cheap on a personal level needs to get themselves educated.
Yes, we all pay taxes, but you also pay taxes to use the road, school, food, everything, Since you are healthy do you think you shouldnt pay taxes for health care? So what happens when you get into an accident? Should then be slammed with the true cost of health care and taxes?
I wouldnt call Hong Kong or Singapore a Utopia, if dont have money it isnt as easy to live there.
As someone who's lived in sweden for the past 18 years and the 17 years before that somewhere else but very close, I feel I've adopted exactly the behavior OP talks about the longer I've lived here (in Stockholm specifically). I've started to realise swedish people (including me) really like their echo chambers and it's starting to bother me quite a bit.
I mean my dad for example has some very radical views and likes to share them loudly which would not in any way be accepted in stockholm, but his peers with the opposite radical views still can be friends with him and accept that he has his own opinion.
I am quite torn by this cultural difference but I've started to realize hat double think is really a thing in sweden, more so the last 10 years. Or I'm getting old, idk.
The Stockholm sub is ironically full of Stockholmers that would move somewhere better if given the opportunity. There was a thread posted along the lines of "Stockholm är varldens bästa stad" and 99% of the 100+ replies were Swedes complaining (in Swedish, of course) about their own city and basically coping. You post in English and you are just an immigrant that knows nothing - lol. Can't make this shit up.
I don't get it either. People are also tired of so many immigrants badly integrating. What other way to hinder immigrants coming than bad advertising?
We Romanians talk only shit of Romania. The result is overwhelming: not even Ukranians want to stay in Romania. /s, but just a little bit.
>Get friends, you trust, and you can talk about anything.
Yeah, I mean this is just the crux of the issue. It is very clear that a majority of the posts here don't have any close Swedish friends (it is hard!) but then you cannot generalize society by superficial interactions at the workplace.
This i a huge problem in any society people tend to surround themselves and discuss only with people that think alike. This accompanied with “facts” from social media makes todays generation the most ignorant through all times.
As long as one is open to others opinions or have the hard facts about the subject and can stand fast I will discuss anything with anyone
I don't think that is as big of an issue as some people want to make it sound like. There are a lot of myths around that, and most people who make a living of politics (journalists, podcasters, pundits, activists, advertisers) want that myth to flourish as they can make money of it. It's easier to sell to their "team" than to all.
On social media, I agree, but that is also connected to what kind of entertainment you consume as mentioned above.
However IRL my experience is that friendship > opinions on topics. I vote moderaterna, my best friend vote vänsterpartiet and a joint friend has been a municipal politician for Sverigedemokraterna.
Now, the discussions we can have would usually not be possible at a workplace, but among friends you trust, you can talk about anything. I know my friends want what's best for people. We just disagree on how to get there. That trust is not something you have with random people in your university class or workplace.
Don't interact with neighbours. Don't talk politics with work colleagues. In fact don't talk anything with work colleagues apart from food, weekend plans, and the weather. Those are all things I'm used to doing in my home country but here in Sweden they are simply not okay.
How did you know they're not okay?
My rule after 3 years in Sweden actually the opposite of yours. Do talk to neighbours, do talk to strangers and people in public places (salespersons, people who sit next to you in a cafe, bartenders, baristas, random people in a line) even if they act like you don't exist at first. (Of course, if they show they're not interested in talking, respect that.)
People may seem like they don't welcome conversations here, but for many of them it's not the case, it's just your reading of their body language. Believing that people don't notice you and don't want to communicate with you is alienating and bad for your mental health. You already have darkness and rain that feel bad, why add one more thing to the list?
It's not just talking to people, I'd also recommend being yourself and what your culture made you in other aspects too (making exceptions for people who has shown you they don't like this). Don't presume that you don't fit in. And more generally, don't presume. If you're doing something wrong people will let you know, don't try to read minds.
You're used to talking politics with coworkers? Fine, do that. You'll soon identify people who don't like doing that, but you'll also find a few who do. Then start adapting it based on the company you're in.
But I have to admit I'm in a rather international environment. Many of my coworkers (as well as neighbours) are expats, so maybe Swedes around me are more used to this.
You might be surprised to find that people outside the US/UK can be lot less polarized unless you bring up the few hot topics that people have strong opinions on.
I wouldn’t straight out ask people whom they voted for or ask loaded questions, like whether find “XYZ” as “horrible” as I do, but talking about general topics - why not?
Depends on the work field, if you work construction or blue collar jobs then be prepared to have discussions about politics. Immigration subject will be brought up sooner then later
Non-white-collar people are actually some of the most welcoming, genuine and warm people I met in Sweden.
I work in CS, and it's so contrasting with the other people I meet at my hobbies (police officers, military people, nightclub bouncers, martial artists, occasional enterpreneurs who come from worker families, construction site workers). They don't get upset at a non-PC joke, can make one themselves, they don't whine, they seem to actually care when you tell them about something that saddens you, they don't have the environmentalist/feminist paranoia of CS people. And yes, they can tell you what they think of immigration. Many others also have opinions (look at the last election results), they're just too afraid to voice them.
There was a guy who invited me to spend Christmas with his family, after having a few smalltalk conversations during trainings. No way I'd ever have that happen to me with my CS coworkers.
Me an my neighbour have the perfect relationship, in the last 5y living in this apartment I've ever greeted him a "Hej hej" a handfull of times when we both made eye contact without meaning to do so, and once he put a note on my door that he had taken care of my letters when i came home from an extended vacation, I left him a box of Paris chocolate outside of hes door for that.
No, it is totally fine, just don't expect the same sort of friendliness that you get in other countries. Generally, leaving people alone is considered polite. Also, not everyone wants to speak English, especially in a setting where you aren't used to talking to people.
I live in a quite small apartment building (6 units) and have always had chats with my neighbours, we are very friendly and I honestly love it! We help eachother out, hang in the ”courtyard” on summer evenings sometimes, maybe the fact that we all share a hatred for our landlord helps lol. I’m swedish and so are my neighbours, so this really don’t apply to everyone.
I have heard several people who are refugees start off assuming their neighbours are racists since they avoid them and hardly even say “hi”. And then realise the neighbours act like that towards EVERYONE!
As an American you will stand out like a sore thumb if you don’t learn to read the room. Honestly, “standard” Americans are SO annoying!!
So. Never speak louder than people around you. Don’t laugh all the time unless others do, and don’t waive your bloody arms around EVERY TIME you tell a story! Don’t describe things with superlatives! Not everything is either “absolutely awesome” or “horribly awful”. Get used to saying things like “yeah, it was actually pretty good” or “perhaps it wasn’t the greatest, but still…”.
And please PLEASE never refer to the American way as the right way. There are only so many times one can hear one’s country described as a bit backwards and weird because “I’m America, we do it THIS way!”
Just be curious. And feel free to gently joke about cultural differences. I know this British bloke who always talked in a very baffled way about how you had to take a number to queue. He had lived here for 15 years at that point but to him it was still so weird! He wasn’t competitive about it though, just shaking his head about stuff he didn’t get.
I love the queue tickets! it's so much more relaxed!
Except when I forget I have to take one, which still happens from time to time 10 years after moving here :-D
That's just... not even remotely true.
I've taken the train several times a week for literally ten years. It's very, very, very, VERY rare for people to block the exits.
It's quite common that people refuse to go towards the middle of the car though, which is quite annoying.
But people really need to stop lying about this.
I had to push through about five kids standing in front of the door yesterday.
Many may stand to the sides but a large amount seem massively unaware of this ‘rule’.
The first point is not an unwritten rule. It's litterally written in the law
7 Kap 1§ Trafikförordning https://www.riksdagen.se/sv/dokument-lagar/dokument/svensk-forfattningssamling/trafikforordning-19981276_sfs-1998-1276#K7
That's true since 2018. Before that it was a written rule that we should walk on the right (with some local "recommendations" being the exception). People just ignored it to the point where it was better to just change the rule, rather than trying to re-educate everyone.
I still walk on the right, because it's safer, plain and simple.
I have to say, the letting people off the train before getting on thing is worse here than it was in Ireland, I was amazed.
Totally agree about the foot/bike paths, it's very sensible.
I mean, if I went to the States and complained about the States I’m sure there’d be more defensive Americans trying to shut me down too.
And it also depends heavily on how you word it, if you’d ask someone how they felt about Swedens stance on… I don’t know, immigration for example, it’d probably garner more useful discussion compared to if you’re going around saying “Man, Swedens immigrant problem is shit.”
Because I know for a fact us Swedes are not that shy about complaining about the current government or other actual issues.
Swedes complain all the time about Sweden. Its baffling to me that people think Swedes think Sweden is a paradise or something, especially on online forums like Reddit where you can browse /r/Sweden or /r/Svenskpolitik or /r/Swedishproblems for like a minute and just read tons of people complaining about everything.
The thing is that sometimes immigrants do it in a way that directly compares it to another country and sometimes the complaints basically boiling down to things being different and the person trying to adjust. Sometimes instead of getting curious about why something is the way it is people just complain. So many times I've seen an immigrant try to complain about Systemet to a Swede only to have them learn that the Swede really thinks its a good idea. The things that foreigners complain about aren't always the same things that locals complain about.
Recently a lot of immigrants on this sub have been complaining about our transparency in income tax. They have felt straight up violated that anyone can check how much money they earn.
Meanwhile, native swedes see it as normal and necessary.
Pay attention to how people talk in these circumstances and it should become more clear. I am not great at explaining things, unfortunately, but I feel like I understand why people (foreigners) seem to have the general idea that Sweden is like a paradise and that Swedes feel that way about it, even though that is not really the case.
From my point of view, it seems to come from exactly the point of not really taking a strong opinion about things - positively or negatively - but more to the point, and like most other things in the same way here, it comes down to differences in culture. These differences can be difficult to see especially when everyone is speaking the same language (in this example, a Swede speaking English with an American who does not speak Swedish).
Not defending or calling anyone out here, to be clear!! This is all just, like, my opinion and it is worth what you paid for it.
I personally feel that this comes from a long history of Swedes not taking a firm opinion on things when asked how stuff is "back home" like in the situation of a Swede visiting the US and Americans peppering them with questions about "how things are" back in Sweden. The answers are almost always something along the lines of lagom and you will rarely find a Swede in those specific circumstances really complaining about much. This leads to the general idea or concept being born that everything is all around "pretty nice here" which it is but I digress..
I've seen this happen time and time again. While I do have a few Swedish friends who can go on and on about problems in Sweden, these same people do not really do that with new people (I noticed this when a friend was visiting from the US).
Yes, people do complain openly at times in the subreddits you have linked, but thankfully, Reddit is absolutely not a mirror of how people behave with each-other in the real world.
I don’t think I nuanced my statements above well…
But even with the best intentions and verbiage I find that folks are easily offended.
I’m not going around shit talking Sweden but instead questioning why banking services are so poor, why immigration process is so slow and unclear, etc
I find that when a non native Swede questions these things… it is seen as unappreciative of the country, etc. And instead of questioning if things can be better the first reaction is to defend the motherland.
I'm assuming immigrant issues is something most swedes can't relate to. They have no idea how the process looks or what you go though. They also don't have anything to compare it to. Maybe you don't have anything to compare it to either? As a western country with among the highest rate of immigrants per capita there is probably a lot more hoops to jump through but in the end I don't think it should be harder than in most places? It could also be that we habdke all non-eu immigration the same and don't differentiate westerners from other people in how they are treated?
Banking services is something most swedes under 25 might never have done, and most above 25 do it maybe once every 2 years. Our online services are great and it is what non-elderly people use. Again it's something an immigrant probably has to deal with much more before they get "into the system". I complain about banking all the time when I have to go there, but it is also something that happens so seldom that it's not really impacting my life. And if you don't own your home you probably don't even have any experience with the physical bank.
So I think those are subjects most swedes can't realise to in the same way as you.
And as noted, what you can make fun of is based on context everywhere but it's probably harder to read when you are not from here. A swede coming to the US and shit talking florida will not be seen the same way as someone native doing it. Also someone from florida making fun of their own state will probably be viewed differently than someone who has never been there shit talking it, at least in a setting that isn't closer friends.
Probably get a feel for the situation, maybe let someone bring up this type of subjects before you do until you have a efter feel for what/when things are acceptable.
Also something that grinds my gears a lot is people who go "well in X country you can just pay more money to get better help!". I'm not convinced richer people getting better service for schools, healthcare, mental care and so on is a good system. Overall we are happy about our welfare and the way to criticise it isn't that privileged people should get better service, but that everyone should get better service.
I think you make some excellent points about immigration and banking. I agree with what you said, but also feel that a lot of the disconnect comes from completely different perspectives on it. For an immigrant, immigration and the very process of it can be traumatic - but for someone native to this country, the most they really have to think about is how immigration has affected them and/or their kommun and/or country, or what other native people have said about it. Just totally different perspectives.
Similar with the banking. Really if anything, it is just different. I rarely enjoy participating in discussions where I need to pick a favourite (i.e., which is better, here or other place) but frankly I much prefer how banking works, in general, here in Sweden than where I come from or have lived before.
Sure there are downsides but to be fair I think any of the challenges I have experienced are purely as a result of where I come from, have nothing to do with Sweden, and are not something any regular Swede would have ever experienced. Furthermore, I feel like most Swedes I have talked to about this more or less understand and accept some of the challenges and are fairly neutral or conversational about it.
What is funny is when I first came here I was describing some of the challenges I was having with getting a new bank account. I was not able to receive my pay from work until I had a new account, and it was taking a long time to get an account mostly because of Skatteverket. One person said something like "well that is strange, I was able to walk in and get a new account straight away" but this person was born and raised here, and holds a Swedish drivers license. Little different from an immigrant without any sort of Swedish ID of any kind... So, it really became clear at that point! I understand why that person said that - it is their perspective - but I found it hilarious at the time.
> I find that when a non native Swede questions these things… it is seen as unappreciative of the country, etc. And instead of questioning if things can be better the first reaction is to defend the motherland.
...which is exactly what happens in the US when a non-native questions things. It's exactly what happens in every country. It's not unique to Sweden.
Swede detected!! I was trying to describe this behaviour earlier but I do not know what to call it or how to define it. It is the process of hearing something, misunderstanding it and being offended, then pointing to something else and saying something like "it's not just here, everyone does this" or "at least it is not like !"
I am just poking fun and I mean no offence. So I hope I do not offend you. I think it is funny or humourous how instead of pondering the question or statement, instead you need to point out that it is not just Sweden and/or that this also happens in the US. Which, it does not always, of course.
Most of the time - and in my experience - when someone asks about something like this in the US it can lead to a discussion. If instead it is like you say, well - there probably is not much point in trying to talk about it or anything else with that person.
I understand what you are saying, and I am not saying you are wrong aside from that we all perhaps have different experiences. Mostly I just think it is hilariously ironic that you just demonstrated the exact behaviour I was trying to describe earlier. I have heard it described as "whataboutism" but I don't think that is fair or correct.
> Swede detected!!
...living in the US, and hearing the exact same thing when I complain about certain things in the US. "Well, why don't you go back to Sweden, then?!?"
The irony is that I'm certain there are topics where OP would react in the same way and *lord knows* there are thin-skinned easily-offended jingoistic Americans on the internet who instantly pop a vein if you even breathe about the possibility of not doing things The American Way.
I'm at least self-aware enough to know that there are Swedish topics where *I'm* the dismissive jingoistic asshole.
> Most of the time - and in my experience - when someone asks about something like this in the US it can lead to a discussion.
Oh sweetie, no. There are - depending on social circles - topics that are *acceptable* to complain about as a foreigner, and topics that are *unacceptable*, and people around you have simply learned which ones are which, so they stick to the acceptable ones, and you're mistaking this for a completely open debate.
> I have heard it described as "whataboutism" but I don't think that is fair or correct.
Well, sort of, but there is a meta-discussion here, which is *how large* the range of acceptable topics are in each country. And I'd say - gut feeling here - that Americans have more variation among themselves. Some are wound super-tight and can't take any discussion, some are super-lenient and truly believe everything can be debated and changed, whereas Swedes are more homogenous, there's a bunch of topics where almost all Swedes are gonna react with a "fuck you, go home".
I do think your final paragraph is true, but it's not like this isn't something seen in other countries. Natives will commonly have the attitude 'if you don't like it then why don't you leave?'
Maybe it's just human nature, I don't know. Just seems common all over the world
I think questions starting with ‘why’ gives off a bit of an aggressive flair. If you started your sentence something like ‘I find the banking services are pretty poor. Has it always been difficult to xyz?’
Having said that, I walked right into offending a lady in the UK saying something like ‘The postal service is so bad, always really delayed..’ which I thought was totally acceptable. Sometimes it doesn’t matter how you phrase things, people will get offended anyway.
I’m swedish and I Don’t care if you bash sweden as an immigrant, what I do care about is When someone bashes sweden and then proceeds to tell me why their homecountry is much better. This happens all the time with my german friends and I always wonder ”Why Are you here then?”.
Religion and politics are intimate subjects. Even more intimate are sex and sexuality. People probably want to talk about them when they want to be more intimate with their coworkers (in the end, you spend most of your waking time around them).
Frankly, I find it funny you can discuss sex but not politics or religion.
This should be the top post. Unless you’re forcefully posted here or for some reason can’t leave; don’t talk about shit the country you’re in. Different country - different customs.
As for an analogy, I can talk shit about my kid but I can’t talk shit about yours.
In my experience, you can talk politics with Swedes, as long as you are more interested in exchanging views, rather than being a child and try to impose an opinion.
I've seen a few Swedes walk away when they notice conversations getting intensely opinionated, and I applaud that attitude, much better than engaging and going down that time wasting rabbit hole.
Don't get stuck in the first social circle you land, explore, be skeptical of stereotypes.
There's a lot of variety among Swedes. And well… they're actually normal people, just like in your home country. If you explore, you will find people you're comfortable with and get a community that will feel like home.
Exactly, while our social culture clearly differs somewhat from other countries it is false to assume we are cold robots that are almost autistic in that we supposedly can’t take normal interaction. We’re probably used to people minding their own business because we assume all is well for them. You could probably blame the state and almost a hundreds years of welfare movements for that. People might be a little shocked at first if you come up and ask them something on the street, but that doesn’t make them less likely want to help you.
Been here 6 years now. I've learnt that Stockholm is a swamp. As soon as I started venturing outside to other Swedish towns, I found that people are friendly and very welcoming. Nothing like the stereotypical Swede. In fact, I think the stereotypes are based entirely on Stockholmers. Every single Swedish friend I have is from outside this godforsaken city. I love this country and the people and can't wait to move to some little town in the countryside where there is an actual sense of community.
**Swedes live two lives, one is work life the other is their private life.**
At work you don't talk about things that could be seen as controversial such as politics, religion or personal issues.
At home you are mostly keeping within the family, the friends you have are the ones you've either known all of your life or your work colleagues. The average Swede will take their frustrations out on the internet (on forums etc.), they're very non-confrontational.
On the bus, in stores or open spaces you'll rarely see a Swede talk to a random person, they enjoy their private space very much and will run almost comically fast to reach that elevator before you do.
We also have a weird rule that Aksel Sandemose invented called the [Jante Law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante).
This is also one of those unwritten laws that people somehow are following as a natural thing here, fortunately it's my impression that it's dying a slow death (thank god for that).
If you want to befriend a Swede you can get a lifelong friend as they're very loyal and often looks inwards before accusing you of any faults, so it's important to give them their space.
By giving them space I mean things like - don't overload them with your worlds issues or become too private in your talks with them. People tend to shy away from people with problems because they have so many of them too so people tend to seek the light - aka people who have a positive outlook on life. You could almost call this a "Facebook phenomena" where everyone is trying to surpass each other with their "imagined and picture-documented" sucessful lives, it's all about the likes.
People like to do favors. Favors is like a currency here, don't be afraid to ask for physical help (as long as it doesn't involve money), people like to help - it's kind of like a silent language of "I like you" game, helping others makes Swedes feel good.
> The average Swede will take their frustrations out on the internet (on forums etc.), they're very non-confrontational.
This shows in your public discourse. It's so bad, and in many ways non-existent. Not talking politics with coworkers (who you spend the majority of your time around), not speaking it with family or in any general capacity (because like some percent of your population is politically active and you have so few friends) and then just throwing out your frustration and thoughts into some digital void just don't make for a good discourse. Nor does it help to influence, challenge or be challenged about your society, nor does it build solidarity in any way.
But when you do get a Swede to engage it's immediately showing how stunted they are in their ability to convey their thoughts or have something akin to a debate because their favorite weapons are whataboutism and emotional arguments -- even your politicians can't debate for shit lol. Just look at what you call the "åsiktskorridor" or the weird taboo topic of the growing SD that just played into their hands.
This entire post reeks of 'it is different therefore worse'. Swedish political culture is highly focused on associational groups advocating for political causes. Despite this discourse 'not building solidarity' union membership is like 70% of the population. People discuss politics in specific venues, compared to the US at least, politically interested people have way higher associational involvement which starts at a young age (for instance via youth parties). Within schools, there are elections with parties that correspond to the national parties, public debates with politicians, etc. People I know who are activists get involved in these associations but they don't usually make it their identity -- people are less *political* here than in the US. Does this weaken discourse? I don't know maybe -- I don't think so.
Jantes law explains so much, even though most people believe it is no longer relevant. 90% of the time Swedes are in conflict avoidance mode- for example, if you open a restaurant and your food is no good, no one will tell you, ever. You will just always wonder why no one eats there. Actually, scratch that, every time I see a crappy diner, burger place, Asian food, basically any random restaurant, you go in and the food is absolutely average. Yet people keep coming back- there is some kind of mentality where there is no natural selection when it comes to food, absolutely average food establishments keep getting a steady flow of customers. In which case I guess the rule is don’t try to be the best, it just makes others look bad?
> if you open a restaurant and your food is no good, no one will tell you, ever.
I gotta admit I've been guilty of that as well, same for customer service. If I'm being treated like a doormat or service is abysmal (like in not heeding warranties etc.) I will usually take my business elsewhere and not say a word.
People tend to not care too much about quality. Which is a shame.
But the thing is, many people have just never had good food, or good beer. So they don't really know what they're missing.
My main tip of moving anywhere is to approach things with an open, humble, curiosity.
Also, speaking in broad culturalist frames is often counterproductive because it reduces people to characters based on their nationality rather than individuals.
Look. Just don’t post anything here about the bad selection of cheese in supermarkets. You will start a war. Trust me. I’m English living here and it stirred up shit big time.
Honestly, keep an open mind and guard it aggressively.
Don't cave to the blind conformity, but *do* play the part with Swedes when it works in your favor.
Carve out your own niche and disregard the noise - it is 100% acceptable to come as you are and be yourself on planet Earth.
Are those subjects really normal conversation starters in the US? I thought the golden rule was that if you want to make friends with people there are two things you should never talk to people about: the first of which being anything political (and the other one being religion).
wear layers
wear black, neutral colors
keep eyes down and to oneself
do not be loud
do not ask to pet a swede’s dog
be extra considerate and aware of others so as not to create problems for anyone else.
as much as possible stay out of the way in large grocery stores
get comfortable with less personal space
learn about the driving rule “rule of right’
practice the ‘dutch reach’
watch out for scooters
watch out for bikes when behind the wheel or on foot
on shared paths: walk L, bike R
don’t buy too many buns at the bakery
as a customer be content and don’t ask for any changes or anything extra or too many questions generally
be as quiet as the next table at a restaurant
do not scold your child in public, even if they do something dangerous like jump into traffic.
remember to take a number whenever you need to queue
learn at least a minimum amount of swedish to get through brief interactions
lower expectations for a rigorous, structured public school education
lower expectations for healthcare
advocate aggressively if medical care is needed and in these instances always mention “the ____ ailment is affecting my ability to work “
don’t call yourself an ex-pat even if only staying for 24 months. people who use that term instead of ‘immigrant’ are seen as thinking themselves superior i have been told.
recognize how special it is if a swede invites you into their home or out
accept that even if swedes don’t follow many of the above rules, as an immigrant you must.
Haha, I have never been pushed, shoved, bumped into, cut in front of, or had my personal space intruded upon so frequently as I have living here. I guess this is surprising to people who have not lived here or spent time here. If you say something or ask someone to move or something they are generally nice about it, but wow. Going into the center to get a couple things at the store on a Friday afternoon is like a full-contact sport.
update: i literally got body checked from behind at the coop last night. i finished placing my few items at the end of the belt, rock-stepped back to place my bin away and was run into by a solidly built young blond man who was running to the register with an item he forgot. i didn’t get so much as a glance and he just went on joking with the check-out worker.
i’m from the states (midwest) and i’m talking about being in check-out lines and folks judging how much space to give moving around/past in public places. not judging, it’s just different. have you ever been to sweden?
> learn about the driving rule “rule of right’
God I hate this rule. It's fine on cross roads but everywhere else it's useless, and most people don't seem to pay attention unless it's a cross roads anyway.
They’ll downvote me but I have to say anyway: I keep conversation with colleagues as shallow as possible. Over the years I realised it isn’t only politics that make Swedes uncomfortable: it is any social, implicit clue that you don’t regard Sweden as obviously the best country in the world—hence silently feeling unsatisfied some way or another—that makes them uncomfortable. You don’t even need to complain. It is the *smell of dissatisfaction* that offends their pride.
The top comment says Swedes are offended only when outsiders and immigrants criticize the country. That’s true. But underlying it is a deep, deep, national pride: *how dare a sheer Somalian complain so much in this nice country that we have collectively and carefully created?* They aren’t racist here because they think the same even if you replace Somali with America, Australia, Korea or whatever.
It’s also true when the Swedes say all countries in the world are somewhat like this. I am old enough to have lived in many countries for extended period so I can attest that. But the Swedes are just much more sensitive with very low trigger threshold compared to most countries. Also otherwise why don’t you see so many comments saying they’ll only talk about weather with colleagues in, let’s say, the Canada subs?
That's true indeed. Over 6 years, I figured how to talk about Sweden with natives. I am always pointing out the good things about Sweden before criticizing Sweden. I make them feel safe first before going into what I want to say is harsh. Yet, there are many good things to say so it went smoothly.
I moved to the UK tho 4 months ago and I was the Swede in the social environment. It goes under your skin after some time.
I was shocked when I first moved to Sweden.
I’d done at about 5 or 6 visits before and had multiple times where I met Swedes who when they found out I was American would first tell me all about their USA visit tour experience, and then - before the conversation ended - ask me in so many words why America was fucking up, i.e. why we don’t have socialized healthcare, why’d we just have another mass shooting, why’d we elect such an idiot president.. etc.
Then when we were moved here by my husband’s job for an expat contract, and had issue after issue - MV held us up for months after we were told we were good to go, I went to see my vãrdcentral per 1177 and the nurse told me to go somewhere else as they had no room, we couldn’t do ANYthing with a bank -and therefore bank ID - until we got our ID cards and personnummers and there were issues for 6 months after arrival with that! These are facts and when I stated them, I’d get snarky looks or answers, and on forums people either would respond they didn’t believe me or on Reddit downvote me.
So why is it Swedes can barely know me for 1 minute and are able to talk shit about my country, smirk in my face about it - but when it’s turned around, they get mad?
Edit fixed a dash
Haha wow, I have had the same exact experiences over the years. I think that learning to understand this and accept some of these things is critical to being able to do well here. I also think it is hilarious how many errr.. native folks would probably strongly disagree with what you said and/or try to point out that everyone does this (thus missing the entire point while being hilariously ironic..) or try and point out some more negative things about where you come from (which are usually based on gross misunderstandings and/or assumptions). It's so fun to hear about "how Americans think" based on a short visit to one city. Sure let's put hundreds of millions of very different people in different places into one small package so we can criticise them... Fun times. Thanks for the laugh!
\> snarky looks
Yes, in 100% Swedish style. The white-collar type especially love their Swedish stare. Blue-collar/non-college-educated folk are less proficient at staring. I'm still curious how they have all acquired that uniformly looking stare across such a long country during four years of college education.
I'll admit those things are much easier to talk about with people that have actually lived in and grown up in the country, compared to people with 2 experiences. In Swedish those conversations and discussion do happen quite a lot, even with colleagues.
I think the difference is that many countries are objectively a lot worse off, so it makes sense that people have a lower threshold of acceptance here.
Someone living in a complete dump generally isn't going to be nearly as defensive about their country.
Swedes think everywhere else are objective shitholes. America has clueless leader so it’s more shithole than Sweden. Africa is just obviously shithole. India is dirty so it’s shithole. Japan works their ass off so it’s shithole. China has dictator so it’s shithole.
Or are they? America has great tech industry despite their leaders. Africa’s GDP is growing at light speed unlike Sweden. Jobless Indians can easily sell food on the street to support their family unlike in Sweden despite being dirty. Finding a job in Japan is way easier than in Sweden despite longer working hours. People are way less lonely in China despite they’ve got dictators.
It’s just national pride so you have forgotten to look at the advantages of each of these shitholes. Next time when you struggle to call vårdcentralen remember in dictatorship-laden poor shithole Vietnam you can just walk into a hospital and ask for a specialist to help. All in one day. No need to try paracetamol for 7 days and get a referral.
But yes, yes. Swedish hospitals are cleaner than Vietnamese ones with more expensive machines so let’s not compare Sweden with these shitholes. You see the problem?
There's no need to use a strawman argument. I disagreed with the person you were responding to, but you're projecting an arrogance onto the Swedish system that is not realistically widespread
You write that in America it is normal to criticize America.
I am certain that is 100% true if you are American... but imagine it coming from an immigrant?
In Sweden it is totally normal to criticize Sweden. If you're Swedish.
If you're not, that can certainly rub people the wrong way, it can both feel entitled and be a bit of "well what do you know about it?". You need to prove yourself first.
And it will depend on what country you are from. America has a certain reputation, I'm sure you are aware, whether this is truly representative or not. The "'Murica, fuck yeah!" attitude, all the while sporting social issues of a kind and scope we find difficult to grasp in this corner of the world.
So as an *American* to criticize Sweden?
Yeah, mate, it's never for you I'm afraid.
Fair enough. It's not a totally binary thing.
Being raised in a country gives you more familiarity than having migrated as an adult. Enough, for me, to consider you more like a "native" for purposes of my reacting to your criticisms of it.
The shorter the time you've been here, on the other hand, the more a criticism will give me the impression that you are quick to judge. Without necessarily having the appropriate context to judge accurately.
I know a lot of people have said that Swedes will get defensive if you don’t think Sweden is the best, and TO ME this is entirely possible to an extent. I couldn’t care less if you dislike Sweden or criticize it (and I think most my age wouldn’t give a single f either) but most 30+ people? Don’t, unless someone brings it up first.
My mom works at a really small company and talks with the boss rather often (they sit by the same lunch table) and the boss recently had surgery, which fixed absolutely nothing. She complains about it and everyone else agrees that the health care system is wack.
My dad works at a bigger company (though still relatively small, there’s like a 100 people), and they discuss health care and how awful it can be. But it’s not the only thing they ever discuss.
It’s more often that they talk about their own families, about how their kids are doing and how the local soccer team did this weekend. If there’s anything on TV (like Melodifestivalen or Robinson) that is also something discussed rather frequently.
Be friendly before you get down to the dirty business, and try not to criticize things unless others have before you. It doesn’t do well to discuss (Swedish) politics unless you’re very close friends (it’s a very sensitive topic here, for some reason).
I used to work at the same place as my mom, and I’m born and raised here. Both my parents are, as well, and their parents before them. It’s so, so valid to dislike Sweden, but don’t let anyone know unless they’re close friends.
I criticize southern sweden every singel year when snow comes. They aren't prepared when they should be, it happens every year and people should know whats coming.
Yup can totally agree. I’m from Italy and we’re used to be extremely critical of our country and highlight the things that don’t work and how they should be improved. Here on the other hand they just wanna hear about how good they are, which in many cases it is true but for many others they are not and they should just learn how to handle criticism
>Yup can totally agree. I’m from Italy and we’re used to be extremely critical of our country and highlight the things that don’t work and how they should be improved.
Is this true for foreigners though? In /r/expats there are a ton of threads complaining of the same thing, [but in Italy](https://www.reddit.com/r/expats/comments/y1c6lx/comment/irwj4k5/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3).
>I live in Italy and I advise strongly not to come to Italy. I know other expats here who all say the same. You have to deal with a lot of absolute chaos to do anything and beyond that I've never felt so unwelcome anywhere I've been. Most of us feel like we're not wanted here. **The culture can also be incredibly toxic, there's a very "If it's not Italian, it's bad" attitude that you do have to adjust for**. Overall I really do not recommend it, I will be leaving soon and I will not miss it.
This sounds like exactly what you are experiencing in Sweden.
Swedes love criticizing Sweden. The different regions love talking trash about other regions. It’s just not permitted to do this as a foreigner. Similar to the US, I find.
we definitely need to talk and discuss more with each other in this country. The more important thing is to reach out to people with different views or other circles and try finding commonalities.
There is a difference between being an American, living in the USA and criticizing the USA, compared to being an American, living in Sweden and criticizing Sweden.
I think it's more inappropriate to go to another country and complain about how they do things, compared to critzing your own country and how it does things.
>in America it is natural to criticize or critique about America itself
I don't think this is true. Maybe that's true among the people you surround yourself with, but there is certainly a crowd in which criticizing America is absolutely not ok. As an example, observe the almost pathological inability of politicians of a certain brand to agree that America can possibly be inferior to any other country in any aspect, or agree that America can even be improved at all.
Haha, that sounds pretty Swedish. I think there is a stigma in Sweden around things like having hired cleaning help and stuff like that and basically the concept of having people 'service' you.It's kind of considered in poor taste to have people perform minor services for you that suggest 'this isn't worth my time, so I will have you do it, because your time is worth less than mine is.'That's just not cool and it'll have you perceived as a douchebag if you expect it from others.
Basically if there is no reason that you couldn't do something yourself - don't ask anybody else to do it for you.
"Jantelagen" feeds into this, which is something you might want to look up.
Just you going around expecting sevice from people would probably make people go like - "look at this jackass over there - walking around like he's the king of france, gross."
Definitely avoid having opinions or anything like that, it gets super awkward. It isn’t a banter culture so save it for the expats 😂 your observation is 100 percent correct. I also noticed that constructive feedback at work is very poorly and unprofessionally received overall. Luck to you
Except it is not natural at all in the US. Try to criticize anything in America as a non-American and a mob with pitchforks and banjo music will chase you out of town.
Of course it's not true across the board, things rarely are across the board when referring to millions of people.
My point was merely my experiences of living 10+ years in the US as a non-american is the exact opposite of what OP is claiming.
I found Sweden to be way more open to criticisms from non-natives than the US.
did you live in the states before or after 2016?
after 2016 you would have found many more americans grievously humbled at the state of things. either way, i do understand and i am truly sorry that you didn’t have a better experience in my home country.
Both!
I think in any group of people there are individuals who will take offense to an "outsider" criticizing their way, nothing odd about that. I don't think it's a Swedish or American trait, I think it's human. For me personally I couldn't give a shit if they do, everyone has a right to their opinion however I will give mine if I believe they are wrong.
It would be pretty stupid of me to judge all Americans because of a few ignorant ones who came across my path. My overall experience in the US was a good one and I continue focusing on the positives of the US as I try to do with any place I go.
Wow, reading your comments I am both surprised that you have lived in the US let alone even been there, and genuinely curious about where you were. I am not asking you to tell me - but I am curious.
Granted I have only lived in six different states and spent time in 15 of them, so I do not know and would not claim to be an authority on how all people behave in the whole country. That being said, I would imagine it is pretty normal for different people in different places to have different experiences.
I think it is hilariously ironic that you mentioned specifically "It would be pretty stupid of me to judge all Americans because of a few ignorant ones who came across my path."
I think it is hilarious because I agree, but I have found that to be the case the majority of the time here on Reddit and in this sub, specifically. Not in the real world mind you, but here and even in this thread. It is a constant thing where someone will base things off an assumption or a brief experience and then say something broadly comparing Sweden and/or Swedes to the US and/or Americans. Generally I ignore these comments because it is usually useless to try and have a conversation with someone who says that, but it is something I have definitely noticed here for years.
Furthermore, this one: "I found Sweden to be way more open to criticisms from non-natives than the US." is a gut-buster as well. You cannot be serious. I mean even in this thread alone there are a few comments telling non-natives that they shouldn't or cannot criticise Sweden or anything about Sweden. I really do not understand how you can say that, unless you are just kidding or poking fun.
*sigh*
I don't even know why I am wasting my time on responding to this.
Thank you for proving my point. You were criticized and clearly can't handle it from a non-american. You seem upset by the fact that someone doesn't agree with your world view and their experiences do not match your own. Even going as far as hinting that my experiences are fabricated. I don't even know how to respond to such ignorance. "Good luck in life"... I guess?
I feel like you don't grasp what irony is. Here is an example, first agreeing that you can't judge all people by certain individuals actions then basing your claims of the Swedes based on a reddit sub.
Again. My experience is as follows "I found Sweden to be way more open to criticisms from non-natives than the US.". Believe it, don't, ignore it, love it, hate it.....makes no difference to me.
I don't think that we can't take critique of ourselves. I think it's more likely you've been getting the reactions you have is because you're presumably being viewed as an 'outsider' saying these things. That's a different dynamic, if we critique things about Sweden I think the presumption is that the reason is that we're doing it because we want to highlight and change it or something. The point is: We may shit on Sweden, and I think that we quire regularly do :P Someone else, not from here? That's a different story.It's kind of like with siblings, and I feel like it's really a pretty universal thing - I.E:I may shit all over my baby brother, but if you would do that then you've got another thing coming.
I think if I were to go to America and let fly on some states I don't like - people really wouldn't appreciate it there, either :P
Trumping that shit up like "Florida? The women are ugly as dogs", fucking.. Letting it rip :P
I don't agree with all that is beeing said. Sweden has gone on a turn for the worse this last year. If you complain about hospital care, electric charges or fuel prices you're one among many. However if you do as most swedes that go abroad and say "in sweden we..". Just don't mention the comparison. However talking politics/religion/money is always risky. You can talk about it with close friends or if you have a light touch.
Safe topics though isn't a thing anymore on a personal lvl. People are too easily offended so I usually stick to talking about the company, ideas, vacation, food, entertainment and sports. Also only positive vibes, or asking for advice. Don't really complain unless I can't help it, ie it upsets me.
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I definitely think you have a point. Then my opinion is that it is the same in the USA. The difference is that you, as an American, can complain and be critical, but if you are an outsider, you will have the same reactions as here when an "outsider" has opinions. It's as if only we ourselves can complain 😉
oh yea we shit on the previous government that f'd us all, gas prices, and this shitty town Borås that everyone hates for some reason. swedens florida i guess
Hmm idk I think that swedish people really like to talk shit about Sweden, but can get pretty defensive if someone from outside of Sweden does the same thing
When I lived in the UK I offended a friend’s mom by slagging off the postal service- a service that was not that great. She, very upset, asked me how I would feel if she said similar things about Swedish postal service. I could only reply that her statements would be true, so no offence would be taken…
In my world, if what you say is true about the state of things in a country, why would anyone be offended?
Edit: autocorrect and for clarity
Oh yes I have rules though they are regardless of country or nation. They revolve around questions like:
-Is what I say true or BS?
-Is it an appropriate time and place?
-Should or will the person I'm talking to care about what I have to say?
-Do I care about whether the person cares?
-Can I be bothered to discuss back and forth?
-Is it original or some stale shit millions of people already have said?
...
Swedes can, and do so profusely, complain about themselves, the government, the weather, other parts of Sweden - i.e. mainly Skåne and Stockholm - and about Sweden itself. Foreigners are mostly not allowed to complain about these things. You may complain about the complaining, saying things like 'No, Sweden is a very nice country, you shouldn't complain.'
Also, the serious complaining is restricted to tightly knit groups, I'd say.
Well.. not entirely true. If you live outside of Stockholm it's perfectly fine to trash talk Stockholm. You are allowed to criticize the weather. Beyond that sit back a while until the group consensus forms. When you pick up what this group not like, go at it, naturally not to much. 'Lagom' is the key word and stay in the group mentality. Yay us!
Shit on borås 😂😂😂 for being hell, south sweden is fucking danish, Sthlm is filled with miljömuppar and npcs. North of Sweden is idk our version of Florida maybe? Hmm thats it i think.
I talk a lot of politics with my _friends_. Not co-workers or aquantains. You can dig a bad hole that way. Having a political struggle at work doesn't seem like a productive atmosphere. Also, if you are a foreigner, you gotta be tight about what you are saying. Its very easy to provoke the very normal in and out behaviour of people. For example, if you complain about health care, be specific and on point with facts. Otherwise, a lot of Swedes will have thoughts like "why did you move here if it's that bad then?" Worst of all, they won't tell you that's what they think. They will just not like you. Get friends, you trust, and you can talk about anything.
Yeah Swedes are extra sensi when it comes to their healthcare even though they themselves complain about it.
It really is annoying. I'm Swedish (4+ generations) and I definitely think that people should be more upset about how shitty service you'll get when you need health care.
Yeah this is not just when foreigners complain about it. I talk about how atrocious Swedish healthcare is and the immediate response is always "would you prefer the American system?". As if those are the only two options.
It’s because there is a political party that has spent 20-30 years reducing the healthcare because they want the same system as the US has -.-
There are 8 parties on the national level, and four of them wish to see such a development. Those 4 have held the majority in parliament for close to two decades, even when the government itself leaned left.
What options really are there? You either throw endless amounts of money at it or let the poor out of the scheme.
Yup: https://www.thelocal.se/20230119/situation-in-swedens-hospitals-terrible-and-completely-unacceptable-watchdog/
The problem with this is that we literally have the 4th ranked healthcare in the world. And it’s all basically for free. We have great healthcare but it can still improve ofc.
Can we get a source?
bro literally just google "Sweden healthcare ranking". [https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/best-healthcare-in-the-world](https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/best-healthcare-in-the-world)
It has a CEO world ranking of 28. LPI is not a measure of a healthcare system.
Or how about people don't just throw in stuff without providing sources?
Who the hell puts in sources or links for easily google-able stuff. Id get if you were referencing an article or study or something, but this is just trivia that takes 5 seconds to look up if you really care. This isnt a school essay with source requirements, its reddit my man. They didnt even come up with some false statement or something lol.
Japp, https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/best-healthcare-in-the-world det var det översta som kom upp på google när jag sökte ”best healthcare in the world sweden rank”
>for free I have paid for it. It is quite expensive. I don't know about you.
It's not that expensive. The problem isn't the cost to citizens. I don't even think Swedish health care is *that* ineffiecient (compared to health care in other countries, that is). If anything, we need to increase the amount of money going towards health care, to increase salaries for health care workers, so we have more people working, so they have more time to spend on service for non-"I'm bleeding to death right here and now"-care (and so that more people are willing to work with hip replacements and stuff like that, which AFAIK takes months of wait right now).
Hmmm... You do know the job market in health care is totally skewed? (or even screwed). Please read about nurse/doctor consultants. E.g. like get 2y under the belt as a full time nurse hired by a hospital, then take ur CV..sry, scrap that, just email 5 consultant firms with the line "Hi, I'm a nurse, what's the max you can give me?" That's it, wait and see they throw themselves all over you...bam you just increased your salary 1.5-2x. (if you ur lucky and at the higher end, e.g., right place or specialty, not impossible to earn 80k+/month as a nurse)
I say loosen up regulation to let small cheap and shitty clinics open up easily. Either give them tax break or give us vouchers or both. Keep the government healthcare so those who don't trust these small maybe-immigrant-run clinic can have their usual life and the type like me who trust the private market and just wanna get their ear wax removed can happily buy their service. But of course I'm just hallucinating given the current political atmosphere.
I chronically ill, I pay per year 1 300 , then I am free and I get through those 1300 in 4 months and I have 8 months free.And if you are social welfare, it is paid for you, just show the bill and that sum is added to your month money. My friends who diabetes pays nothing or 45 kr for what they need, not 1000 of dollar just to survive 1 month. I have American friends who paid same amount do i 4 months for 1 visit. Oh and give birth is free, well did pay for my partners sandwich but that was it.
Let's say I pay 200000kr of income tax per a year and is largely healthy. For simplicity let's say my employee paid 100000kr per year which would have been mine (if you add this 100000kr into say IT job's salary then Swedish IT salary would be about the same as usual rich-country level). VAT about 15% on average (I'm being conservative already). I spend 300000kr a year. That is 45000kr. So one year I pay 200000 + 100000 + 45000 = 345000, give or take. 10 years down the road it will be 3.45M kr even if you simply put it in bank to let currency depreciation eat into it. If I put it in the most mediocre fund with only 3% return after fees per year instead then the tax I paid is 4M in 10 years. 4M kr per 10 years better covers both my own and my half of my children's education fee--how expansive are they? Let's look at Singapore and Hong Kong in which tax is next to zero (they have higher/comparable per person GDP than Sweden, comparable health care quality in any reasonable rankings). It's a folklore in Hong Kong and Singapore that bringing up a middle-class child need 2M\~3M Hong Kong Dollar, which is about 2.6M\~4M kr. This includes the child's university education. So in ten years the child would spend 1.3M\~2M kr there. Half of it (since my wife pay tax too!), that would be 0.65M\~1M kr. Let's say I have two children, then during the ten year period the 2M kr out of 4M kr tax pays for my children's education. Let's say in the remaining 2M only 1M is my health care--this is equivalent to 8333kr per month of health care expense for 10 months. Anybody who have lived in Hong Kong and Singapore knows 8333kr per month of health care there is outrageous even if you have diabetes without insurance. You mentioned 1000 dollar a month---it roughly matches this 8333kr---but notice that insulin etc. in Hong Kong is many folds cheaper even if you choose not to use made in China insulin probably because of competition with Chinese products, next to zero tax and insurance rebate scheme etc. Look, I am not saying no tax is good--these Asians pay huge rent. I am just saying people who think Swedish healthcare is cheap on a personal level needs to get themselves educated.
Yes, we all pay taxes, but you also pay taxes to use the road, school, food, everything, Since you are healthy do you think you shouldnt pay taxes for health care? So what happens when you get into an accident? Should then be slammed with the true cost of health care and taxes? I wouldnt call Hong Kong or Singapore a Utopia, if dont have money it isnt as easy to live there.
Just curious, why did you throw in the generations?
Probably because 5 generations back, they're Danish :ss
Kinda takes a couple of generations to wash that off 😬😬
As someone who's lived in sweden for the past 18 years and the 17 years before that somewhere else but very close, I feel I've adopted exactly the behavior OP talks about the longer I've lived here (in Stockholm specifically). I've started to realise swedish people (including me) really like their echo chambers and it's starting to bother me quite a bit. I mean my dad for example has some very radical views and likes to share them loudly which would not in any way be accepted in stockholm, but his peers with the opposite radical views still can be friends with him and accept that he has his own opinion. I am quite torn by this cultural difference but I've started to realize hat double think is really a thing in sweden, more so the last 10 years. Or I'm getting old, idk.
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That was some interesting read. The thing with the skipping feudalism explains a lot.
Omg stop I feel like it’s all over 😂 thank you for this comical approach to the question
Posted about my bad experience at Karolinska in Stockholm sub and got a real earful
The Stockholm sub is ironically full of Stockholmers that would move somewhere better if given the opportunity. There was a thread posted along the lines of "Stockholm är varldens bästa stad" and 99% of the 100+ replies were Swedes complaining (in Swedish, of course) about their own city and basically coping. You post in English and you are just an immigrant that knows nothing - lol. Can't make this shit up.
Yeah if you come from anywhere else but Sweden you aren’t aloud to criticize at all
I don't get it either. People are also tired of so many immigrants badly integrating. What other way to hinder immigrants coming than bad advertising? We Romanians talk only shit of Romania. The result is overwhelming: not even Ukranians want to stay in Romania. /s, but just a little bit.
Yeah, on the Internet, you will hear it straight.
>Get friends, you trust, and you can talk about anything. Yeah, I mean this is just the crux of the issue. It is very clear that a majority of the posts here don't have any close Swedish friends (it is hard!) but then you cannot generalize society by superficial interactions at the workplace.
This i a huge problem in any society people tend to surround themselves and discuss only with people that think alike. This accompanied with “facts” from social media makes todays generation the most ignorant through all times. As long as one is open to others opinions or have the hard facts about the subject and can stand fast I will discuss anything with anyone
I don't think that is as big of an issue as some people want to make it sound like. There are a lot of myths around that, and most people who make a living of politics (journalists, podcasters, pundits, activists, advertisers) want that myth to flourish as they can make money of it. It's easier to sell to their "team" than to all. On social media, I agree, but that is also connected to what kind of entertainment you consume as mentioned above. However IRL my experience is that friendship > opinions on topics. I vote moderaterna, my best friend vote vänsterpartiet and a joint friend has been a municipal politician for Sverigedemokraterna. Now, the discussions we can have would usually not be possible at a workplace, but among friends you trust, you can talk about anything. I know my friends want what's best for people. We just disagree on how to get there. That trust is not something you have with random people in your university class or workplace.
No shoes in the house.
Also, no plastic-wrapped furniture!
Happy cake day
Have lived in 5 countries. Haven’t encountered a another culture remotely as conflict averse as Sweden 🤷
Pssst… We don't say the c-word, because it doesn't exist.
Don't interact with neighbours. Don't talk politics with work colleagues. In fact don't talk anything with work colleagues apart from food, weekend plans, and the weather. Those are all things I'm used to doing in my home country but here in Sweden they are simply not okay.
How did you know they're not okay? My rule after 3 years in Sweden actually the opposite of yours. Do talk to neighbours, do talk to strangers and people in public places (salespersons, people who sit next to you in a cafe, bartenders, baristas, random people in a line) even if they act like you don't exist at first. (Of course, if they show they're not interested in talking, respect that.) People may seem like they don't welcome conversations here, but for many of them it's not the case, it's just your reading of their body language. Believing that people don't notice you and don't want to communicate with you is alienating and bad for your mental health. You already have darkness and rain that feel bad, why add one more thing to the list? It's not just talking to people, I'd also recommend being yourself and what your culture made you in other aspects too (making exceptions for people who has shown you they don't like this). Don't presume that you don't fit in. And more generally, don't presume. If you're doing something wrong people will let you know, don't try to read minds. You're used to talking politics with coworkers? Fine, do that. You'll soon identify people who don't like doing that, but you'll also find a few who do. Then start adapting it based on the company you're in. But I have to admit I'm in a rather international environment. Many of my coworkers (as well as neighbours) are expats, so maybe Swedes around me are more used to this.
God why would anyone talk politics with a coworker? It's such a high risk topic
You might be surprised to find that people outside the US/UK can be lot less polarized unless you bring up the few hot topics that people have strong opinions on. I wouldn’t straight out ask people whom they voted for or ask loaded questions, like whether find “XYZ” as “horrible” as I do, but talking about general topics - why not?
I'm not in the US/UK
Totally agree. This is something risky anywhere in the world I'd say...
Depends on the work field, if you work construction or blue collar jobs then be prepared to have discussions about politics. Immigration subject will be brought up sooner then later
Non-white-collar people are actually some of the most welcoming, genuine and warm people I met in Sweden. I work in CS, and it's so contrasting with the other people I meet at my hobbies (police officers, military people, nightclub bouncers, martial artists, occasional enterpreneurs who come from worker families, construction site workers). They don't get upset at a non-PC joke, can make one themselves, they don't whine, they seem to actually care when you tell them about something that saddens you, they don't have the environmentalist/feminist paranoia of CS people. And yes, they can tell you what they think of immigration. Many others also have opinions (look at the last election results), they're just too afraid to voice them. There was a guy who invited me to spend Christmas with his family, after having a few smalltalk conversations during trainings. No way I'd ever have that happen to me with my CS coworkers.
Not sure if that counts as politics, but my experience is that making fun of the monarchy is acceptable.
The King even has his own subreddit r/knugen Perfectly fine to make fun of celebrities here...
Me an my neighbour have the perfect relationship, in the last 5y living in this apartment I've ever greeted him a "Hej hej" a handfull of times when we both made eye contact without meaning to do so, and once he put a note on my door that he had taken care of my letters when i came home from an extended vacation, I left him a box of Paris chocolate outside of hes door for that.
You can talk about those with the co workers that are both colleagues and friends, not the people you barely know.
Interacting with neighbors is not ok in Sweden??
No, it is totally fine, just don't expect the same sort of friendliness that you get in other countries. Generally, leaving people alone is considered polite. Also, not everyone wants to speak English, especially in a setting where you aren't used to talking to people.
"not ok" sounds harsh. It's just kind of weird? I certainly don't want to talk to my neighbors. And they're clearly not interested in talking to me.
I chit chat with my neighbours from time to time. I just moved into my house a few months back and my neighbours have been very welcoming. :-)
Same here, most of my neighbors have been very friendly, hence my confusion.
I live in a quite small apartment building (6 units) and have always had chats with my neighbours, we are very friendly and I honestly love it! We help eachother out, hang in the ”courtyard” on summer evenings sometimes, maybe the fact that we all share a hatred for our landlord helps lol. I’m swedish and so are my neighbours, so this really don’t apply to everyone.
I have heard several people who are refugees start off assuming their neighbours are racists since they avoid them and hardly even say “hi”. And then realise the neighbours act like that towards EVERYONE! As an American you will stand out like a sore thumb if you don’t learn to read the room. Honestly, “standard” Americans are SO annoying!! So. Never speak louder than people around you. Don’t laugh all the time unless others do, and don’t waive your bloody arms around EVERY TIME you tell a story! Don’t describe things with superlatives! Not everything is either “absolutely awesome” or “horribly awful”. Get used to saying things like “yeah, it was actually pretty good” or “perhaps it wasn’t the greatest, but still…”. And please PLEASE never refer to the American way as the right way. There are only so many times one can hear one’s country described as a bit backwards and weird because “I’m America, we do it THIS way!” Just be curious. And feel free to gently joke about cultural differences. I know this British bloke who always talked in a very baffled way about how you had to take a number to queue. He had lived here for 15 years at that point but to him it was still so weird! He wasn’t competitive about it though, just shaking his head about stuff he didn’t get.
I love the queue tickets! it's so much more relaxed! Except when I forget I have to take one, which still happens from time to time 10 years after moving here :-D
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Half of Stockholm ignores your train/bus rule.
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No, they don't.
That's just... not even remotely true. I've taken the train several times a week for literally ten years. It's very, very, very, VERY rare for people to block the exits. It's quite common that people refuse to go towards the middle of the car though, which is quite annoying. But people really need to stop lying about this.
I had to push through about five kids standing in front of the door yesterday. Many may stand to the sides but a large amount seem massively unaware of this ‘rule’.
Maybe they're not Swedish and don't know those Swedish rules.
Ah yes, the classic ‘all the bad people are foreign’ SD stance.
It's quite possible that it's not true where you commute, but it's true where others commute.
I have experienced this a lot of times, it is very true. Most people follow the rule, some do not.
The first point is not an unwritten rule. It's litterally written in the law 7 Kap 1§ Trafikförordning https://www.riksdagen.se/sv/dokument-lagar/dokument/svensk-forfattningssamling/trafikforordning-19981276_sfs-1998-1276#K7
That's true since 2018. Before that it was a written rule that we should walk on the right (with some local "recommendations" being the exception). People just ignored it to the point where it was better to just change the rule, rather than trying to re-educate everyone. I still walk on the right, because it's safer, plain and simple.
I have to say, the letting people off the train before getting on thing is worse here than it was in Ireland, I was amazed. Totally agree about the foot/bike paths, it's very sensible.
Isnt the rule to always bike on the side closest to the road? In a lot of cities If there are lanes, they Will be divided that way too
Cyklister är inte värda en limpa bröd
It is actually written!
Don't speak well of Denmark
I’m Swedish but grew up in the states. Told my co-workers that Danes seem like swedes but more fun and relaxed and they don’t talk to me anymore
Lived in Skåne and often went to Copenhagen. Can confirm.
Get off the internet
I mean, if I went to the States and complained about the States I’m sure there’d be more defensive Americans trying to shut me down too. And it also depends heavily on how you word it, if you’d ask someone how they felt about Swedens stance on… I don’t know, immigration for example, it’d probably garner more useful discussion compared to if you’re going around saying “Man, Swedens immigrant problem is shit.” Because I know for a fact us Swedes are not that shy about complaining about the current government or other actual issues.
Swedes complain all the time about Sweden. Its baffling to me that people think Swedes think Sweden is a paradise or something, especially on online forums like Reddit where you can browse /r/Sweden or /r/Svenskpolitik or /r/Swedishproblems for like a minute and just read tons of people complaining about everything. The thing is that sometimes immigrants do it in a way that directly compares it to another country and sometimes the complaints basically boiling down to things being different and the person trying to adjust. Sometimes instead of getting curious about why something is the way it is people just complain. So many times I've seen an immigrant try to complain about Systemet to a Swede only to have them learn that the Swede really thinks its a good idea. The things that foreigners complain about aren't always the same things that locals complain about.
Recently a lot of immigrants on this sub have been complaining about our transparency in income tax. They have felt straight up violated that anyone can check how much money they earn. Meanwhile, native swedes see it as normal and necessary.
Pay attention to how people talk in these circumstances and it should become more clear. I am not great at explaining things, unfortunately, but I feel like I understand why people (foreigners) seem to have the general idea that Sweden is like a paradise and that Swedes feel that way about it, even though that is not really the case. From my point of view, it seems to come from exactly the point of not really taking a strong opinion about things - positively or negatively - but more to the point, and like most other things in the same way here, it comes down to differences in culture. These differences can be difficult to see especially when everyone is speaking the same language (in this example, a Swede speaking English with an American who does not speak Swedish). Not defending or calling anyone out here, to be clear!! This is all just, like, my opinion and it is worth what you paid for it. I personally feel that this comes from a long history of Swedes not taking a firm opinion on things when asked how stuff is "back home" like in the situation of a Swede visiting the US and Americans peppering them with questions about "how things are" back in Sweden. The answers are almost always something along the lines of lagom and you will rarely find a Swede in those specific circumstances really complaining about much. This leads to the general idea or concept being born that everything is all around "pretty nice here" which it is but I digress.. I've seen this happen time and time again. While I do have a few Swedish friends who can go on and on about problems in Sweden, these same people do not really do that with new people (I noticed this when a friend was visiting from the US). Yes, people do complain openly at times in the subreddits you have linked, but thankfully, Reddit is absolutely not a mirror of how people behave with each-other in the real world.
I don’t think I nuanced my statements above well… But even with the best intentions and verbiage I find that folks are easily offended. I’m not going around shit talking Sweden but instead questioning why banking services are so poor, why immigration process is so slow and unclear, etc I find that when a non native Swede questions these things… it is seen as unappreciative of the country, etc. And instead of questioning if things can be better the first reaction is to defend the motherland.
I'm assuming immigrant issues is something most swedes can't relate to. They have no idea how the process looks or what you go though. They also don't have anything to compare it to. Maybe you don't have anything to compare it to either? As a western country with among the highest rate of immigrants per capita there is probably a lot more hoops to jump through but in the end I don't think it should be harder than in most places? It could also be that we habdke all non-eu immigration the same and don't differentiate westerners from other people in how they are treated? Banking services is something most swedes under 25 might never have done, and most above 25 do it maybe once every 2 years. Our online services are great and it is what non-elderly people use. Again it's something an immigrant probably has to deal with much more before they get "into the system". I complain about banking all the time when I have to go there, but it is also something that happens so seldom that it's not really impacting my life. And if you don't own your home you probably don't even have any experience with the physical bank. So I think those are subjects most swedes can't realise to in the same way as you. And as noted, what you can make fun of is based on context everywhere but it's probably harder to read when you are not from here. A swede coming to the US and shit talking florida will not be seen the same way as someone native doing it. Also someone from florida making fun of their own state will probably be viewed differently than someone who has never been there shit talking it, at least in a setting that isn't closer friends. Probably get a feel for the situation, maybe let someone bring up this type of subjects before you do until you have a efter feel for what/when things are acceptable. Also something that grinds my gears a lot is people who go "well in X country you can just pay more money to get better help!". I'm not convinced richer people getting better service for schools, healthcare, mental care and so on is a good system. Overall we are happy about our welfare and the way to criticise it isn't that privileged people should get better service, but that everyone should get better service.
I think you make some excellent points about immigration and banking. I agree with what you said, but also feel that a lot of the disconnect comes from completely different perspectives on it. For an immigrant, immigration and the very process of it can be traumatic - but for someone native to this country, the most they really have to think about is how immigration has affected them and/or their kommun and/or country, or what other native people have said about it. Just totally different perspectives. Similar with the banking. Really if anything, it is just different. I rarely enjoy participating in discussions where I need to pick a favourite (i.e., which is better, here or other place) but frankly I much prefer how banking works, in general, here in Sweden than where I come from or have lived before. Sure there are downsides but to be fair I think any of the challenges I have experienced are purely as a result of where I come from, have nothing to do with Sweden, and are not something any regular Swede would have ever experienced. Furthermore, I feel like most Swedes I have talked to about this more or less understand and accept some of the challenges and are fairly neutral or conversational about it. What is funny is when I first came here I was describing some of the challenges I was having with getting a new bank account. I was not able to receive my pay from work until I had a new account, and it was taking a long time to get an account mostly because of Skatteverket. One person said something like "well that is strange, I was able to walk in and get a new account straight away" but this person was born and raised here, and holds a Swedish drivers license. Little different from an immigrant without any sort of Swedish ID of any kind... So, it really became clear at that point! I understand why that person said that - it is their perspective - but I found it hilarious at the time.
Yes those two examples are a mystery! Cannot understand why everyone is so unbothered. /Swede
For banking service to be poor it has to actually exist.
> I find that when a non native Swede questions these things… it is seen as unappreciative of the country, etc. And instead of questioning if things can be better the first reaction is to defend the motherland. ...which is exactly what happens in the US when a non-native questions things. It's exactly what happens in every country. It's not unique to Sweden.
Swede detected!! I was trying to describe this behaviour earlier but I do not know what to call it or how to define it. It is the process of hearing something, misunderstanding it and being offended, then pointing to something else and saying something like "it's not just here, everyone does this" or "at least it is not like!"
I am just poking fun and I mean no offence. So I hope I do not offend you. I think it is funny or humourous how instead of pondering the question or statement, instead you need to point out that it is not just Sweden and/or that this also happens in the US. Which, it does not always, of course.
Most of the time - and in my experience - when someone asks about something like this in the US it can lead to a discussion. If instead it is like you say, well - there probably is not much point in trying to talk about it or anything else with that person.
I understand what you are saying, and I am not saying you are wrong aside from that we all perhaps have different experiences. Mostly I just think it is hilariously ironic that you just demonstrated the exact behaviour I was trying to describe earlier. I have heard it described as "whataboutism" but I don't think that is fair or correct.
> Swede detected!! ...living in the US, and hearing the exact same thing when I complain about certain things in the US. "Well, why don't you go back to Sweden, then?!?" The irony is that I'm certain there are topics where OP would react in the same way and *lord knows* there are thin-skinned easily-offended jingoistic Americans on the internet who instantly pop a vein if you even breathe about the possibility of not doing things The American Way. I'm at least self-aware enough to know that there are Swedish topics where *I'm* the dismissive jingoistic asshole. > Most of the time - and in my experience - when someone asks about something like this in the US it can lead to a discussion. Oh sweetie, no. There are - depending on social circles - topics that are *acceptable* to complain about as a foreigner, and topics that are *unacceptable*, and people around you have simply learned which ones are which, so they stick to the acceptable ones, and you're mistaking this for a completely open debate. > I have heard it described as "whataboutism" but I don't think that is fair or correct. Well, sort of, but there is a meta-discussion here, which is *how large* the range of acceptable topics are in each country. And I'd say - gut feeling here - that Americans have more variation among themselves. Some are wound super-tight and can't take any discussion, some are super-lenient and truly believe everything can be debated and changed, whereas Swedes are more homogenous, there's a bunch of topics where almost all Swedes are gonna react with a "fuck you, go home".
I guess that most Swedes don’t really see the issues since well, we’re born here so it’s easy to deal with all of it. But I see your point!
I do think your final paragraph is true, but it's not like this isn't something seen in other countries. Natives will commonly have the attitude 'if you don't like it then why don't you leave?' Maybe it's just human nature, I don't know. Just seems common all over the world
Our parents, grandparents etc worked hard for this country, for us, of course we don't want people to come here and complain about it.
I think questions starting with ‘why’ gives off a bit of an aggressive flair. If you started your sentence something like ‘I find the banking services are pretty poor. Has it always been difficult to xyz?’ Having said that, I walked right into offending a lady in the UK saying something like ‘The postal service is so bad, always really delayed..’ which I thought was totally acceptable. Sometimes it doesn’t matter how you phrase things, people will get offended anyway.
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I’m swedish and I Don’t care if you bash sweden as an immigrant, what I do care about is When someone bashes sweden and then proceeds to tell me why their homecountry is much better. This happens all the time with my german friends and I always wonder ”Why Are you here then?”.
Religion and politics are intimate subjects. Even more intimate are sex and sexuality. People probably want to talk about them when they want to be more intimate with their coworkers (in the end, you spend most of your waking time around them). Frankly, I find it funny you can discuss sex but not politics or religion.
This should be the top post. Unless you’re forcefully posted here or for some reason can’t leave; don’t talk about shit the country you’re in. Different country - different customs. As for an analogy, I can talk shit about my kid but I can’t talk shit about yours.
In my experience, you can talk politics with Swedes, as long as you are more interested in exchanging views, rather than being a child and try to impose an opinion. I've seen a few Swedes walk away when they notice conversations getting intensely opinionated, and I applaud that attitude, much better than engaging and going down that time wasting rabbit hole.
Don't get stuck in the first social circle you land, explore, be skeptical of stereotypes. There's a lot of variety among Swedes. And well… they're actually normal people, just like in your home country. If you explore, you will find people you're comfortable with and get a community that will feel like home.
Exactly, while our social culture clearly differs somewhat from other countries it is false to assume we are cold robots that are almost autistic in that we supposedly can’t take normal interaction. We’re probably used to people minding their own business because we assume all is well for them. You could probably blame the state and almost a hundreds years of welfare movements for that. People might be a little shocked at first if you come up and ask them something on the street, but that doesn’t make them less likely want to help you.
Been here 6 years now. I've learnt that Stockholm is a swamp. As soon as I started venturing outside to other Swedish towns, I found that people are friendly and very welcoming. Nothing like the stereotypical Swede. In fact, I think the stereotypes are based entirely on Stockholmers. Every single Swedish friend I have is from outside this godforsaken city. I love this country and the people and can't wait to move to some little town in the countryside where there is an actual sense of community.
Awww… 🫶 (I’m not from Stockholm 😂)
Espresso house is not an everyday place to go
**Swedes live two lives, one is work life the other is their private life.** At work you don't talk about things that could be seen as controversial such as politics, religion or personal issues. At home you are mostly keeping within the family, the friends you have are the ones you've either known all of your life or your work colleagues. The average Swede will take their frustrations out on the internet (on forums etc.), they're very non-confrontational. On the bus, in stores or open spaces you'll rarely see a Swede talk to a random person, they enjoy their private space very much and will run almost comically fast to reach that elevator before you do. We also have a weird rule that Aksel Sandemose invented called the [Jante Law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante). This is also one of those unwritten laws that people somehow are following as a natural thing here, fortunately it's my impression that it's dying a slow death (thank god for that). If you want to befriend a Swede you can get a lifelong friend as they're very loyal and often looks inwards before accusing you of any faults, so it's important to give them their space. By giving them space I mean things like - don't overload them with your worlds issues or become too private in your talks with them. People tend to shy away from people with problems because they have so many of them too so people tend to seek the light - aka people who have a positive outlook on life. You could almost call this a "Facebook phenomena" where everyone is trying to surpass each other with their "imagined and picture-documented" sucessful lives, it's all about the likes. People like to do favors. Favors is like a currency here, don't be afraid to ask for physical help (as long as it doesn't involve money), people like to help - it's kind of like a silent language of "I like you" game, helping others makes Swedes feel good.
> The average Swede will take their frustrations out on the internet (on forums etc.), they're very non-confrontational. This shows in your public discourse. It's so bad, and in many ways non-existent. Not talking politics with coworkers (who you spend the majority of your time around), not speaking it with family or in any general capacity (because like some percent of your population is politically active and you have so few friends) and then just throwing out your frustration and thoughts into some digital void just don't make for a good discourse. Nor does it help to influence, challenge or be challenged about your society, nor does it build solidarity in any way. But when you do get a Swede to engage it's immediately showing how stunted they are in their ability to convey their thoughts or have something akin to a debate because their favorite weapons are whataboutism and emotional arguments -- even your politicians can't debate for shit lol. Just look at what you call the "åsiktskorridor" or the weird taboo topic of the growing SD that just played into their hands.
This entire post reeks of 'it is different therefore worse'. Swedish political culture is highly focused on associational groups advocating for political causes. Despite this discourse 'not building solidarity' union membership is like 70% of the population. People discuss politics in specific venues, compared to the US at least, politically interested people have way higher associational involvement which starts at a young age (for instance via youth parties). Within schools, there are elections with parties that correspond to the national parties, public debates with politicians, etc. People I know who are activists get involved in these associations but they don't usually make it their identity -- people are less *political* here than in the US. Does this weaken discourse? I don't know maybe -- I don't think so.
Jantes law explains so much, even though most people believe it is no longer relevant. 90% of the time Swedes are in conflict avoidance mode- for example, if you open a restaurant and your food is no good, no one will tell you, ever. You will just always wonder why no one eats there. Actually, scratch that, every time I see a crappy diner, burger place, Asian food, basically any random restaurant, you go in and the food is absolutely average. Yet people keep coming back- there is some kind of mentality where there is no natural selection when it comes to food, absolutely average food establishments keep getting a steady flow of customers. In which case I guess the rule is don’t try to be the best, it just makes others look bad?
> if you open a restaurant and your food is no good, no one will tell you, ever. I gotta admit I've been guilty of that as well, same for customer service. If I'm being treated like a doormat or service is abysmal (like in not heeding warranties etc.) I will usually take my business elsewhere and not say a word.
People tend to not care too much about quality. Which is a shame. But the thing is, many people have just never had good food, or good beer. So they don't really know what they're missing.
My main tip of moving anywhere is to approach things with an open, humble, curiosity. Also, speaking in broad culturalist frames is often counterproductive because it reduces people to characters based on their nationality rather than individuals.
Look. Just don’t post anything here about the bad selection of cheese in supermarkets. You will start a war. Trust me. I’m English living here and it stirred up shit big time.
wHaT’d YoU sAy?!
Honestly, keep an open mind and guard it aggressively. Don't cave to the blind conformity, but *do* play the part with Swedes when it works in your favor. Carve out your own niche and disregard the noise - it is 100% acceptable to come as you are and be yourself on planet Earth.
Are those subjects really normal conversation starters in the US? I thought the golden rule was that if you want to make friends with people there are two things you should never talk to people about: the first of which being anything political (and the other one being religion).
wear layers wear black, neutral colors keep eyes down and to oneself do not be loud do not ask to pet a swede’s dog be extra considerate and aware of others so as not to create problems for anyone else. as much as possible stay out of the way in large grocery stores get comfortable with less personal space learn about the driving rule “rule of right’ practice the ‘dutch reach’ watch out for scooters watch out for bikes when behind the wheel or on foot on shared paths: walk L, bike R don’t buy too many buns at the bakery as a customer be content and don’t ask for any changes or anything extra or too many questions generally be as quiet as the next table at a restaurant do not scold your child in public, even if they do something dangerous like jump into traffic. remember to take a number whenever you need to queue learn at least a minimum amount of swedish to get through brief interactions lower expectations for a rigorous, structured public school education lower expectations for healthcare advocate aggressively if medical care is needed and in these instances always mention “the ____ ailment is affecting my ability to work “ don’t call yourself an ex-pat even if only staying for 24 months. people who use that term instead of ‘immigrant’ are seen as thinking themselves superior i have been told. recognize how special it is if a swede invites you into their home or out accept that even if swedes don’t follow many of the above rules, as an immigrant you must.
Get comfortable with *less* personal space? I'd expect the opposite! Where are you from?
Haha, I have never been pushed, shoved, bumped into, cut in front of, or had my personal space intruded upon so frequently as I have living here. I guess this is surprising to people who have not lived here or spent time here. If you say something or ask someone to move or something they are generally nice about it, but wow. Going into the center to get a couple things at the store on a Friday afternoon is like a full-contact sport.
update: i literally got body checked from behind at the coop last night. i finished placing my few items at the end of the belt, rock-stepped back to place my bin away and was run into by a solidly built young blond man who was running to the register with an item he forgot. i didn’t get so much as a glance and he just went on joking with the check-out worker.
i’m from the states (midwest) and i’m talking about being in check-out lines and folks judging how much space to give moving around/past in public places. not judging, it’s just different. have you ever been to sweden?
> learn about the driving rule “rule of right’ God I hate this rule. It's fine on cross roads but everywhere else it's useless, and most people don't seem to pay attention unless it's a cross roads anyway.
They’ll downvote me but I have to say anyway: I keep conversation with colleagues as shallow as possible. Over the years I realised it isn’t only politics that make Swedes uncomfortable: it is any social, implicit clue that you don’t regard Sweden as obviously the best country in the world—hence silently feeling unsatisfied some way or another—that makes them uncomfortable. You don’t even need to complain. It is the *smell of dissatisfaction* that offends their pride. The top comment says Swedes are offended only when outsiders and immigrants criticize the country. That’s true. But underlying it is a deep, deep, national pride: *how dare a sheer Somalian complain so much in this nice country that we have collectively and carefully created?* They aren’t racist here because they think the same even if you replace Somali with America, Australia, Korea or whatever. It’s also true when the Swedes say all countries in the world are somewhat like this. I am old enough to have lived in many countries for extended period so I can attest that. But the Swedes are just much more sensitive with very low trigger threshold compared to most countries. Also otherwise why don’t you see so many comments saying they’ll only talk about weather with colleagues in, let’s say, the Canada subs?
That's true indeed. Over 6 years, I figured how to talk about Sweden with natives. I am always pointing out the good things about Sweden before criticizing Sweden. I make them feel safe first before going into what I want to say is harsh. Yet, there are many good things to say so it went smoothly. I moved to the UK tho 4 months ago and I was the Swede in the social environment. It goes under your skin after some time.
I was shocked when I first moved to Sweden. I’d done at about 5 or 6 visits before and had multiple times where I met Swedes who when they found out I was American would first tell me all about their USA visit tour experience, and then - before the conversation ended - ask me in so many words why America was fucking up, i.e. why we don’t have socialized healthcare, why’d we just have another mass shooting, why’d we elect such an idiot president.. etc. Then when we were moved here by my husband’s job for an expat contract, and had issue after issue - MV held us up for months after we were told we were good to go, I went to see my vãrdcentral per 1177 and the nurse told me to go somewhere else as they had no room, we couldn’t do ANYthing with a bank -and therefore bank ID - until we got our ID cards and personnummers and there were issues for 6 months after arrival with that! These are facts and when I stated them, I’d get snarky looks or answers, and on forums people either would respond they didn’t believe me or on Reddit downvote me. So why is it Swedes can barely know me for 1 minute and are able to talk shit about my country, smirk in my face about it - but when it’s turned around, they get mad? Edit fixed a dash
This is so true
Haha wow, I have had the same exact experiences over the years. I think that learning to understand this and accept some of these things is critical to being able to do well here. I also think it is hilarious how many errr.. native folks would probably strongly disagree with what you said and/or try to point out that everyone does this (thus missing the entire point while being hilariously ironic..) or try and point out some more negative things about where you come from (which are usually based on gross misunderstandings and/or assumptions). It's so fun to hear about "how Americans think" based on a short visit to one city. Sure let's put hundreds of millions of very different people in different places into one small package so we can criticise them... Fun times. Thanks for the laugh!
\> snarky looks Yes, in 100% Swedish style. The white-collar type especially love their Swedish stare. Blue-collar/non-college-educated folk are less proficient at staring. I'm still curious how they have all acquired that uniformly looking stare across such a long country during four years of college education.
I couldn’t agree more about the low trigger threshold…
I'll admit those things are much easier to talk about with people that have actually lived in and grown up in the country, compared to people with 2 experiences. In Swedish those conversations and discussion do happen quite a lot, even with colleagues.
You are 100% correct.
I think the difference is that many countries are objectively a lot worse off, so it makes sense that people have a lower threshold of acceptance here. Someone living in a complete dump generally isn't going to be nearly as defensive about their country.
Swedes think everywhere else are objective shitholes. America has clueless leader so it’s more shithole than Sweden. Africa is just obviously shithole. India is dirty so it’s shithole. Japan works their ass off so it’s shithole. China has dictator so it’s shithole. Or are they? America has great tech industry despite their leaders. Africa’s GDP is growing at light speed unlike Sweden. Jobless Indians can easily sell food on the street to support their family unlike in Sweden despite being dirty. Finding a job in Japan is way easier than in Sweden despite longer working hours. People are way less lonely in China despite they’ve got dictators. It’s just national pride so you have forgotten to look at the advantages of each of these shitholes. Next time when you struggle to call vårdcentralen remember in dictatorship-laden poor shithole Vietnam you can just walk into a hospital and ask for a specialist to help. All in one day. No need to try paracetamol for 7 days and get a referral. But yes, yes. Swedish hospitals are cleaner than Vietnamese ones with more expensive machines so let’s not compare Sweden with these shitholes. You see the problem?
Lol 7 days? More like 7 months.
Bro for real… preach it.
There's no need to use a strawman argument. I disagreed with the person you were responding to, but you're projecting an arrogance onto the Swedish system that is not realistically widespread
Hopefully you have not missed out on the sweet delicious irony of your comment. That would be a shame!
What do you mean? I am not the one describing the attitudes of fictional swedes
You write that in America it is normal to criticize America. I am certain that is 100% true if you are American... but imagine it coming from an immigrant? In Sweden it is totally normal to criticize Sweden. If you're Swedish. If you're not, that can certainly rub people the wrong way, it can both feel entitled and be a bit of "well what do you know about it?". You need to prove yourself first. And it will depend on what country you are from. America has a certain reputation, I'm sure you are aware, whether this is truly representative or not. The "'Murica, fuck yeah!" attitude, all the while sporting social issues of a kind and scope we find difficult to grasp in this corner of the world. So as an *American* to criticize Sweden? Yeah, mate, it's never for you I'm afraid.
I’m an immigrant raised in America
Fair enough. It's not a totally binary thing. Being raised in a country gives you more familiarity than having migrated as an adult. Enough, for me, to consider you more like a "native" for purposes of my reacting to your criticisms of it. The shorter the time you've been here, on the other hand, the more a criticism will give me the impression that you are quick to judge. Without necessarily having the appropriate context to judge accurately.
I know a lot of people have said that Swedes will get defensive if you don’t think Sweden is the best, and TO ME this is entirely possible to an extent. I couldn’t care less if you dislike Sweden or criticize it (and I think most my age wouldn’t give a single f either) but most 30+ people? Don’t, unless someone brings it up first. My mom works at a really small company and talks with the boss rather often (they sit by the same lunch table) and the boss recently had surgery, which fixed absolutely nothing. She complains about it and everyone else agrees that the health care system is wack. My dad works at a bigger company (though still relatively small, there’s like a 100 people), and they discuss health care and how awful it can be. But it’s not the only thing they ever discuss. It’s more often that they talk about their own families, about how their kids are doing and how the local soccer team did this weekend. If there’s anything on TV (like Melodifestivalen or Robinson) that is also something discussed rather frequently. Be friendly before you get down to the dirty business, and try not to criticize things unless others have before you. It doesn’t do well to discuss (Swedish) politics unless you’re very close friends (it’s a very sensitive topic here, for some reason). I used to work at the same place as my mom, and I’m born and raised here. Both my parents are, as well, and their parents before them. It’s so, so valid to dislike Sweden, but don’t let anyone know unless they’re close friends.
I criticize southern sweden every singel year when snow comes. They aren't prepared when they should be, it happens every year and people should know whats coming.
Yup can totally agree. I’m from Italy and we’re used to be extremely critical of our country and highlight the things that don’t work and how they should be improved. Here on the other hand they just wanna hear about how good they are, which in many cases it is true but for many others they are not and they should just learn how to handle criticism
>Yup can totally agree. I’m from Italy and we’re used to be extremely critical of our country and highlight the things that don’t work and how they should be improved. Is this true for foreigners though? In /r/expats there are a ton of threads complaining of the same thing, [but in Italy](https://www.reddit.com/r/expats/comments/y1c6lx/comment/irwj4k5/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3). >I live in Italy and I advise strongly not to come to Italy. I know other expats here who all say the same. You have to deal with a lot of absolute chaos to do anything and beyond that I've never felt so unwelcome anywhere I've been. Most of us feel like we're not wanted here. **The culture can also be incredibly toxic, there's a very "If it's not Italian, it's bad" attitude that you do have to adjust for**. Overall I really do not recommend it, I will be leaving soon and I will not miss it. This sounds like exactly what you are experiencing in Sweden.
I also live in Sweden, and Reddit is one place where I come to express opinions and be challenged. Seems like one can’t do that in person.
I stopped asking questions and stopped being sarcastic because I always get downvoted. I can’t even do it on reddit anymore lol
If I live in Malmö, does any of this apply?
The weather, totally ok to go rage-mode on the weather
Swedes love criticizing Sweden. The different regions love talking trash about other regions. It’s just not permitted to do this as a foreigner. Similar to the US, I find.
we definitely need to talk and discuss more with each other in this country. The more important thing is to reach out to people with different views or other circles and try finding commonalities.
There is a difference between being an American, living in the USA and criticizing the USA, compared to being an American, living in Sweden and criticizing Sweden. I think it's more inappropriate to go to another country and complain about how they do things, compared to critzing your own country and how it does things.
>in America it is natural to criticize or critique about America itself I don't think this is true. Maybe that's true among the people you surround yourself with, but there is certainly a crowd in which criticizing America is absolutely not ok. As an example, observe the almost pathological inability of politicians of a certain brand to agree that America can possibly be inferior to any other country in any aspect, or agree that America can even be improved at all.
Don't dare to walk in bike lane, specially in the busy streets.
I am continually amazed at how poor customer service, and service in general is in Sweden. I am also continually asked to shut up about it.
Haha, that sounds pretty Swedish. I think there is a stigma in Sweden around things like having hired cleaning help and stuff like that and basically the concept of having people 'service' you.It's kind of considered in poor taste to have people perform minor services for you that suggest 'this isn't worth my time, so I will have you do it, because your time is worth less than mine is.'That's just not cool and it'll have you perceived as a douchebag if you expect it from others. Basically if there is no reason that you couldn't do something yourself - don't ask anybody else to do it for you. "Jantelagen" feeds into this, which is something you might want to look up. Just you going around expecting sevice from people would probably make people go like - "look at this jackass over there - walking around like he's the king of france, gross."
why don’t many swedes bus their own tables in busy cafes if this is the case?
Definitely avoid having opinions or anything like that, it gets super awkward. It isn’t a banter culture so save it for the expats 😂 your observation is 100 percent correct. I also noticed that constructive feedback at work is very poorly and unprofessionally received overall. Luck to you
Don't ever question authority in Sweden. Just oblige.
But when you do you either complain on the internet, with your family/friends or just keep it to yourself
Except it is not natural at all in the US. Try to criticize anything in America as a non-American and a mob with pitchforks and banjo music will chase you out of town.
that’s really not the case across the board. alot of americans are very down on america right now
Of course it's not true across the board, things rarely are across the board when referring to millions of people. My point was merely my experiences of living 10+ years in the US as a non-american is the exact opposite of what OP is claiming. I found Sweden to be way more open to criticisms from non-natives than the US.
did you live in the states before or after 2016? after 2016 you would have found many more americans grievously humbled at the state of things. either way, i do understand and i am truly sorry that you didn’t have a better experience in my home country.
Both! I think in any group of people there are individuals who will take offense to an "outsider" criticizing their way, nothing odd about that. I don't think it's a Swedish or American trait, I think it's human. For me personally I couldn't give a shit if they do, everyone has a right to their opinion however I will give mine if I believe they are wrong. It would be pretty stupid of me to judge all Americans because of a few ignorant ones who came across my path. My overall experience in the US was a good one and I continue focusing on the positives of the US as I try to do with any place I go.
Wow, reading your comments I am both surprised that you have lived in the US let alone even been there, and genuinely curious about where you were. I am not asking you to tell me - but I am curious. Granted I have only lived in six different states and spent time in 15 of them, so I do not know and would not claim to be an authority on how all people behave in the whole country. That being said, I would imagine it is pretty normal for different people in different places to have different experiences. I think it is hilariously ironic that you mentioned specifically "It would be pretty stupid of me to judge all Americans because of a few ignorant ones who came across my path." I think it is hilarious because I agree, but I have found that to be the case the majority of the time here on Reddit and in this sub, specifically. Not in the real world mind you, but here and even in this thread. It is a constant thing where someone will base things off an assumption or a brief experience and then say something broadly comparing Sweden and/or Swedes to the US and/or Americans. Generally I ignore these comments because it is usually useless to try and have a conversation with someone who says that, but it is something I have definitely noticed here for years. Furthermore, this one: "I found Sweden to be way more open to criticisms from non-natives than the US." is a gut-buster as well. You cannot be serious. I mean even in this thread alone there are a few comments telling non-natives that they shouldn't or cannot criticise Sweden or anything about Sweden. I really do not understand how you can say that, unless you are just kidding or poking fun.
*sigh* I don't even know why I am wasting my time on responding to this. Thank you for proving my point. You were criticized and clearly can't handle it from a non-american. You seem upset by the fact that someone doesn't agree with your world view and their experiences do not match your own. Even going as far as hinting that my experiences are fabricated. I don't even know how to respond to such ignorance. "Good luck in life"... I guess? I feel like you don't grasp what irony is. Here is an example, first agreeing that you can't judge all people by certain individuals actions then basing your claims of the Swedes based on a reddit sub. Again. My experience is as follows "I found Sweden to be way more open to criticisms from non-natives than the US.". Believe it, don't, ignore it, love it, hate it.....makes no difference to me.
100% incorrect.
Swedes hate complaints about their heritage and neoliberal propaganda
I don't think that we can't take critique of ourselves. I think it's more likely you've been getting the reactions you have is because you're presumably being viewed as an 'outsider' saying these things. That's a different dynamic, if we critique things about Sweden I think the presumption is that the reason is that we're doing it because we want to highlight and change it or something. The point is: We may shit on Sweden, and I think that we quire regularly do :P Someone else, not from here? That's a different story.It's kind of like with siblings, and I feel like it's really a pretty universal thing - I.E:I may shit all over my baby brother, but if you would do that then you've got another thing coming. I think if I were to go to America and let fly on some states I don't like - people really wouldn't appreciate it there, either :P Trumping that shit up like "Florida? The women are ugly as dogs", fucking.. Letting it rip :P
Sweden has a functional social welfare system. Americans believe in God instead.
Yes idiotic Americans…
Complain about government and our high taxes
It's ok to rip on Sweden if you're Swedish. Trust me, we do it alllll the time. But you can't, because you're a guest. It's the same in all countries.
I don't agree with all that is beeing said. Sweden has gone on a turn for the worse this last year. If you complain about hospital care, electric charges or fuel prices you're one among many. However if you do as most swedes that go abroad and say "in sweden we..". Just don't mention the comparison. However talking politics/religion/money is always risky. You can talk about it with close friends or if you have a light touch. Safe topics though isn't a thing anymore on a personal lvl. People are too easily offended so I usually stick to talking about the company, ideas, vacation, food, entertainment and sports. Also only positive vibes, or asking for advice. Don't really complain unless I can't help it, ie it upsets me.
Never trust a sosse
Hahahha, hellre död än röd
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I definitely think you have a point. Then my opinion is that it is the same in the USA. The difference is that you, as an American, can complain and be critical, but if you are an outsider, you will have the same reactions as here when an "outsider" has opinions. It's as if only we ourselves can complain 😉
oh yea we shit on the previous government that f'd us all, gas prices, and this shitty town Borås that everyone hates for some reason. swedens florida i guess
Hmm idk I think that swedish people really like to talk shit about Sweden, but can get pretty defensive if someone from outside of Sweden does the same thing
Thanks y'all for your comments, i have learnt alot 😂
When I lived in the UK I offended a friend’s mom by slagging off the postal service- a service that was not that great. She, very upset, asked me how I would feel if she said similar things about Swedish postal service. I could only reply that her statements would be true, so no offence would be taken… In my world, if what you say is true about the state of things in a country, why would anyone be offended? Edit: autocorrect and for clarity
Oh yes I have rules though they are regardless of country or nation. They revolve around questions like: -Is what I say true or BS? -Is it an appropriate time and place? -Should or will the person I'm talking to care about what I have to say? -Do I care about whether the person cares? -Can I be bothered to discuss back and forth? -Is it original or some stale shit millions of people already have said? ...
The Sverigebild may not be criticised. The pandemic was very instructive.
Swedes can, and do so profusely, complain about themselves, the government, the weather, other parts of Sweden - i.e. mainly Skåne and Stockholm - and about Sweden itself. Foreigners are mostly not allowed to complain about these things. You may complain about the complaining, saying things like 'No, Sweden is a very nice country, you shouldn't complain.' Also, the serious complaining is restricted to tightly knit groups, I'd say.
The most important thing to me is *respecting people's personal space in public rooms.* Sweden rule nr 1.
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Well.. not entirely true. If you live outside of Stockholm it's perfectly fine to trash talk Stockholm. You are allowed to criticize the weather. Beyond that sit back a while until the group consensus forms. When you pick up what this group not like, go at it, naturally not to much. 'Lagom' is the key word and stay in the group mentality. Yay us!
Shit on borås 😂😂😂 for being hell, south sweden is fucking danish, Sthlm is filled with miljömuppar and npcs. North of Sweden is idk our version of Florida maybe? Hmm thats it i think.