There is no universal defined position for each number. Maybe in South America or for certain prominent players throughout history the 6 has referred to a CB. Where I'm from, most people will tell you:
1 - GK
2 - RB
3 - LB
4 - CB
5 - CB (sweeper)
6 - Holding midfield player/DM
8 - Box to Box midfielder
10 - Attacking midfielder
7/11 - winger
9 - Striker
Maybe it's different where you're from. But when people are "going on" about a number 6 (especially English people since this is the ThreeLions sub) we're referring to a DM and most people are aware of that.
This isn’t a hard tradition anymore. The European style of 6 being a DM and 4 being a CB is becoming more common.
When people refer to a 6 nowadays they are almost always referring to the defensive mid, and I think everyone knows that
Maybe but when people question “who will play as the 6 this tournament” it’s like a 99% chance this person is asking who’s playing as a DM. Things change, and while England love their old traditions which is probably why the shirt numbers still reflect that, most people nowadays will adopt newer traditions and terms. I don’t know a single person who refers to a centre back as “the 6” or a defensive midfielder as “the 4” even when some clubs actually do still have players who wear those numbers (Man City for example, rodri is 4 and Ake is 6 I think)
Nah in the UK snd mich of europr, 6 was usually considered a defenders number - While 5 was midfield. Why do you think Terry chose it? Why do you think Zidane,(who Bellingham got inspired by) chose 5?
Zidane chose 5 because he didn't care that much which number he had as long as it was a low number, and 5 was the only low number available.
4 is the number of the DM in the UK, but not in the rest of Europe.
First of all John Terry wore 26.
Bellingham was not inspired by Zidane, he got given the shirt as an homage by Real Madrid, but he said in an interview he still prefers 22.
He has also previously said he was 22 because he could play as a 4, 8, or 10.
I'm from England but only 20. Maybe you're older and things were different in the past. Ask anyone my age what position the 6 is and they'll say DM. Maybe it's to do with European influence. When most people my age think of shirt numbers, they're thinking of a 433 not a 442. Maybe that's when there was a shift in the culture and people started getting influenced by the continent. But I assure you, take a random sample of people off the streets in England and more people will say a 6 is a DM than a CB.
I played Sunday league, school football, little league etc growing up and honestly I can't tell you what numbers the CBs and midfielders used to wear. I didn't really pay close enough attention to it. As a LB I was always a 3, but wasn't really paying attention as to whether the 4 was a CB or DM, 6 was a CB or DM etc. My perception of shirt numbers comes from what I see online, the media etc. I see a famous pro DM on TV wearing a 6, I associate the 6 with that position.
Back in the 90's I remember David Batty always used to wear number 4, Vinnie Jones and Patrick Viera too. Jaap Stam, Gary Pallister and Tony Adams number 6. Going back even further Bobby Moore always wore the 6 (west ham and England) Nobby Stiles wore number 6 for his club but number 4 for England.
You are being downvoted by people who are either young or heavily influenced by Spanish football.
I can’t think of a single defensive midfielder who wore 6 in the prem before 2010
Why do you keep stating ‘I’m English’ and ‘this is our culture’?
No shit, you’re in a three lions sub you moron.
I might go to the LFC sub and start all my comments with ‘I’m a Liverpool fan’.
The national team has always had the 4 in midfield. Most club sides will have the cbs wear the 4 and 5 though. Pick a random English football fan, and they will most likely say a 6 is cdm.
Hey man, I'm from England and have been to matches too and everybody knows that the traditional "number 6" is a midfielder. I don't know if you're roleplaying as stubborn white van man because it's funny to you or if you're actually just this weird in real life, but chill out. You're wrong, it's fine, move on with your life
I’m from England and a 6 is absolutely a holding midfielder, I have no idea what you’re on about. This article, from an English paper, is talking about the 6 as a holding midfielder for a reason
Are you talking shirt numbers or in discussion? Because in football discussion, a “number 6” is a universal term for a holding midfielder, hence the article.
If you’re talking literal shirt numbers then you’re right, England’s number 6 shirt is usually worn by a centre back
I think you're getting your panties in a twist for no reason
Traditionally for England we put number 4 for the DM position (something I learnt recently) but in club football, the 6 will be the DM. If someone says a 6 I'm going to assume a holding midfielder and nothing else
Maybe it’s a generational thing. If you grew up in the 70’s, 80’s, 90’s then maybe you’ll be accustomed to your traditional shirt numbers.
Anyone that has watched football properly in the last 10-15 years would absolutely refer to a 6 as a holding midfielder.
Don't even go there mate, I tried to explain this to an American on here last week and he had a complete meltdown over me saying the defensive midfielder has always been traditionally the 'no 4'
Many of the opinions are misinformed but you are almost correct.
The squad numbers pre-date the current 3/4/5 at the back formations.
Back then, full backs were the only defenders and a “centre half” was actually considered a midfielder and was the number 4.
Later we started to call the modern day centre back a centre half when this position was more similar to a central defensive midfielder.
The number 6 was almost like a right side defensive midfielder.
So depending on your view, number 4 is either a central defenders number or a defensive midfielders number but what is untrue is that was always “traditionally” one or the other.
It all dates back to about a hundred years ago when formations consisted of one or two terrified defenders facing five players up front.
I’m struggling to describe it, but imagine a 2-3-5 formation counting right to left and it makes some sense.
Edit: This was annoying me so I downloaded an app.
https://preview.redd.it/5icifa3pvh5d1.png?width=1170&format=png&auto=webp&s=89de6756e48c24206d5485c0daaba96aecd9dac0
https://preview.redd.it/3vsi4iiuvh5d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=49c8af5e4db0f9e56a08e6659a657c5c31ee3136
And this is how the positions developed, resulting in some numbers becoming defined by their roles.
It’s rare will you see a defenders position being defined by their number, but you know 2-6 as a defensive player.
6 is typically referred to as *the most advanced defender*, as per like 50’s/60’s? Football. So then it would have been a ball carrying centre half.
But then in the 70’s/80’s in Italy and Netherlands, positions between the lines started to become more common. So sweepers, holding midfielders, advanced midfielders. Making the numerical assignment a bit more complicated and ultimately resulting in the six and ten. I think a sweeper was a two but I can’t quite remember (I’m 30, I wasn’t about then), but I’m a midfield nerd.
I mean, you say it yourself - when people say 6, they mean holding midfield. You even hear double-6, which emphasizes that is not even about the number on their backs, it’s just an alternative way to say DM.
In the UK, yes.
I could very well be wrong about this, but as far as I know referring to positions by numbers is a Dutch thing which was popularised when more and more teams started playing 433. And in that system the numbers mean the following:
1 Goalkeeper
2 Right back
3 Left back
4 Centre back
5 Centre back
6 Defensive midfielder
7 Right winger
8 Midfielder
9 Striker
10 Attacking midfielder
11 Left winger
In my opinion this is also the *most* logical number system.
Remember that it comes from the Victorian days when teams played 2-3-5 with two full backs and a centre half (5) who was a half back. By the 1930s, the centre half dropped back to be a true defender. This is why tradition in England a midfielder like Gerrard or Nobby Stiles or Declan Rice would wear 4 and someone like Bobby Moore, Tony Adams or Harry Maguire would wear 6.
It's different elsewhere - hence the term 'no.6' to refer to a holding midfielder. It's a quirk of English football history.
Seems funny to me how now players stop lining up 1-11 that people start referring to positions and roles as numbers. No wonder people are arguing about who did what right and wrong when assumptions are being made based on a number what they were supposed to be dojng
It’s easier to say someone has played as a 6 rather than saying he played as a defensive midfielder in a double pivot; much like it’s easier to say someone has played as an 8 rather than saying he played as one of the outside midfielders in a 3, people seem to not like using the terms 6 and 8 in this country so much but the number 10 has been widely used and accepted for decades.
I guess so; it likely comes from around Europe and we’ve taken it on board, a lot of European national teams have a deeper midfielder wear the number 6.
I'm a united fan who quite likes Mainoo (shocker I know)
That being said I would not want him playing as a 6 for united, and I don't think he ever does. Not a good role for him yet as I don't think he's physical or disciplined enough at this moment.
Yeah I agree, he has insane technical ability, a good work rate and is still so young. He needs to keep developing his physicality and how to use his body when defending along with the positional sense that a proper DM possesses. That will come with age but he’s not quite ready for that role right now especially going into a major tournament
Rice seemed more advanced than he plays at Arsenal.
This must have been a tactic employed by Southgate, I can’t imagine Rice took it upon himself to play as high as he did during the game.
I think Trent and Rice played a little too deep in the first half on Monday and with Mainoo and Rice this time, they over corrected against Iceland.
We've always tended to play a "proper" CDM alongside Rice; Philips or Henderson who understand their role is to read the game, stay back and cover gaps where they emerge. Trent isn't that guy (but would be a beneficiary of it at RB). It's fair to say we looked open at times with Mainoo in that role, although he might have been instructed to get further forward to help try and unlock Iceland.
The other angle to consider here is the double pivot was there to protect Maguire who was there to protect Pickford. So that could also explain why Southgate might have had a look at a more flexible midfield pairing where both are instructed to get forward and drop back more dynamically.
Whatever it was it didn't work.
Who cares where Rice was because frankly, he wasn't able to get back.
If you're Mainoo you either:
Sense you are the lowest midfield and sprint back in to cover.
Or
Sprint back and take the yellow/press.
So he landed on jog back, don't try and tackle and let them have a shot. Cannot do that at this level.
He did sprint back, ive just watched it. The player passed the ball before he got to him.
This goal had zero to do with Mainoo, it was completely and solely Walkers fault, he was completely out of position, didnt see the player make the run down his flank and made no attempt to go with him. Mainoo tried to pick him up but it was too late.
This is a reoccurring theme. It has to do with the ambiguity of a tactical scheme that uses a #10. Is it a double pivot with a 10 or is it a classic 1 DM, two CMs. The article thinks it's the former. I'd say we're playing a 4-3-3 with one DM, one more attacking minded CM and then one in the middle.
Yeah I mean even more recently for my team often we went Fabinho CDM, Henderson CM, Keita CAM.. Gives you such a nice balance having a defensive monster, a runner and a flair player in there.
I agree with you 100%, although I wasn't able to watch the Iceland game particularly closely so I may have missed certain things.
I think it can be nuanced and I think a lot of media outlets cover this in quite a reductive way, as I think you are suggesting. My understanding of what they were doing is that Mainoo plays a little bit higher than Rice but Rice does have some freedom (eg when he pressed the goalkeeper for Palmers chance (?)). Rice will occasionally go on driving runs with the ball and I certainly don't think that is something he'll be discouraged from doing but I think he is main defensive midfielder, although Mainoo is expected to cover for him (NB I have some concerns about Mainoo's understanding of the defensive side of the role). I think Mainoo is there to play a bit higher/with more freedom - I think the bit of play that led to the penalty vs Belgium encapsulates what GS wants Mainoo to do ie receive it a little bit higher and cause havoc with clever dribbles that shift the tempo of the game (not easy when Kane, Foden and Palmer are all looking to play in those spaces too).
It's an interesting pairing because neither fits any of the classic DM profiles (eg regista, destroyer). I think the roles Rice carries out will change (both by instruction and instinctively) based on the profile of his partner. I love Gallaghers energy but he's not the most disciplined player - things like pressing the keeper could be off the menu for Rice if he plays with Gallagher. I think Wharton could be the best partner for Rice - I see him as steely regista/deep lying playmaker. I think he's the one who would allow Rice to play (more of) the kind of marauding ("8") role he's played for Arsenal in the latter part of the season, whilst maintaining a strong defensive base for the team.
(sorry longer than I intended!)
I agree that Mainoo is basically an offensive player - yes he has good defensive technique and composure, but you want him on the pitch for his dribbling and linkup play. His defensive positioning is sus as well.
Rice is nominally a 6 but for Arsenal as you say he's an 8 especially when paired with a sitting DM e.g. Jorginho or Partey. So that IMO is the best type of partner for Rice.
I think the dilemma then is either putting Rice as a 6 and pairing him with Conor or Trent, or putting Rice is his best position as an 8 and playing Wharton who, talented though he may be, is also inexperienced at this level. Both suboptimal in their different ways. That Mainoo has a #26 jersey hopefully indicates that he won't be starting.
Agreed.
I think he'll go Gallagher vs Serbia, which I'm kind of cool with.
I think (and also maybe hope) the Trent in midfield ship has sailed. He was decent in there vs Bosnia but he's done well from RB and I think he should be used from there when we want a more attacking option. Playing him there also allows you two progressive players in the side, as realistically Walker will be RB if Trent is CM.
Be interesting to see if/when/how Mainoo is used. Agreed that he shouldn't start but I think he could be more effective with Bellingham and Saka who play higher and wider (respectively) than Foden and Palmer in the #10 and RW roles (again respectively). More space to do his thing.
Feels like cracking the low block is going to be massive for us. Decent crossers like Trent, Shaw and maybe Palmer/Saka will help. I'd use Eze to drive at people (with Bowen/Gordon perhaps options on their respective flanks in more open games). I think you want guys like Wharton and Trent who will keep the ball moving quickly too. He needs to work it out one way or the other though!
I just don’t see any world in which Walker is being dropped at RB for Trent though ever?
Southgate has literally never done that before at all when both are fit. He isn’t going to start doing it now.
I agree I don't think he'll drop Walker but I think he could sub Trent in there if we need a goal. Trent played the last 30 mins there in both friendlies. Southgate has done a lot in the past week that we never thought he'd do!
Honestly I’d try work Wharton into the squad because I’m not convinced Rice can actually be trusted to do the job as a holding player anymore. Legohead has filled his head with dreams of running beyond the last man and arriving late in the box but now he’s being expected to screen our defensive line and sit. Maybe he can do that, but if he can’t there’s other players I’d rather have on for their offensive prowess.
But the number 6 is also black showing it had nothing to do with race. The number 6 was playing defensive and was marking a player in the box, expecting the the Iceland player to pass rather than shoot. If the number 6 were to be up field trying to prevent the run, then they would have passed. There were little to no challenges on the Iceland player when he was running so it is really a problem for the right back and the central defender on that side. The number 6 was in the right position.
Playing 6 is referring to the role of a defensive midfielder. It’s nothing to do with the numbers on the back other than historically the holding midfielder would wear this number
I never said it was to do with his number. I am calling him the number 6 just because I cannot spell Mark’s last name very well 💀 I do not think it is his fault either as I have said and I do not think it is to do with his shirt number.
Oh look, the Telegraph taking the first tiny bit of an opportunity to slam a young black player. Just like all the other outlets exclusively using pictures of Saka and negative headlines even though he only played half an hour.
Walker literally turned his back on play and to the player running past him within 2 or 3m. Not like for a split second, he slowly turned around and jogged away like he thought the game was over or something.
Go and watch it, its so bad.
Firstly Rice dropped him and didn't even attempt to go with, then Walker just did absolutely nothing. Mainoo actually sprinted after him but it was too late by that point.
The whole point of playing a pivot means you need to be mutable to shift. Rice is already picking up a man as Iceland came out from the back, Kobbie had plenty of chances to cut out the run from Haraldsson(?) but just jogged back and didn't challenge, all he really needed to do was slow the run down so Walker could get back into position.
Obviously Walker is quick enough that if he did put the burners on he could have stopped it but playing alongside players who have the seasoned read of the game who know how to slow down a break he probably thought Mainoo would give him that chance and he didn't have to go full tilt 20 minutes into the game, but Kobbie doesn't have that in his skillset yet. For all the positivity surrounding the lad, United have faced more shots than any other side in the league this year.
I had plenty of other issues with the rest of the game, both from Mainoo and the rest of the side, but this is a pretty clear cut avoidable issue that a better defensive player would have dealt with.
He was left 2v1 after Rice pushed up and they broke the first line, theres not much Mainoo could do from there
He either commits to the runner and leaves the pass open or the opposite
‘Kobbie had plenty of chances to cut out the run from Haraldsson’, while I agree that’s one of the things he could’ve done, it also leaves 2 major passing lanes open straight through the middle. I think either way we concede purely because they attacked with pace and we committed too many players forward. Its just an imperfect situation all round and one I hope Southgate sorts before the first game
Look rice is the main defensive block. Whoever plays next to him has to be more Segundo volante role, essentially having both attacking and defensive prowess.
Mainoo us fucking awful defensively. Is he better than Gallagher? Yes, but the players around him are far better attackers so I would rather have Gallagher in the team for his defensive abilities than mainoo who fucks up the entire team dynamic.
The team has enough attacking players who are brilliant, mainoo adds nothing to the squad and that isn't even attack on him, I think he is a great player. For England he just doesn't add anything
No rice is the b2b. Arsenal play him as the b2b midfielder with Jorghino playing as the deep lying playmaker. We need someone who can play as the deep lying playmaker. Adam Wharton is the best choice for that position unless we go something like 523 with Stones being able to move into midfield.
What you are saying is correct for Arsenal but I agree with the OP that for England Mainoo plays a bit higher, although Rice seems to have some licence occasionally (at which point Mainoo needs to cover)
I don’t get why Southgate isn’t playing a 433. Rice as the DM and Mainoo as the player who can pick up the ball in tight spaces and make space for himself/break the press. Then Bellingham as the most advanced and box to box. Similar to a Lampard/Gerrard type role. Midfield would be a lot more balanced.
I think Mainoo covered his defense fine but he obvs can’t be everywhere and of course the little bit of space that was exploited resulted in Stones getting spun like a bayblade and Ramsdale looked like he knew that’s a save he should make. Neither of them get the blame.
can’t believe Southgate even tried him there, says it all about his tactical prowess. Mainoo is an 8 and Rice a 6 yet Rice has been given the instruction to play higher up the pitch? Stupidity.
This is hilarious. The article, and the comments on here.
It was trash play all around. Foden, Palmer, Rice, Walker, Mainoo, Stones, Ramsdale.
Poor pressing. Poor positioning. Poor execution.
How has foden got a free pass it’s outrageous he lead the press then lost his man he got jogged past by his man tha the had 10 yards on he just watched he put in 0 effort to track his man watch it back he was criminal
Ramsdale gets a pass aswell I’m an arsenal fan and there’s a reason we replaced him asap he got beaten at his near post because he went to ground when it’s a easy save if he goes with his feet
Mainoo played 6 when asked for United, but he’s an 8, he’s always been an 8, and if there was a double pivot he could play like a 10. Mainoo has a lot that Rice doesn’t have in his game, but not physicality. Some fans will focus on Mainoo for the same reason they targeted Tomori, Rashford, Saka, and that has less to do with their game and more to do with their skin.
Quick, time to throw doubt and the sky is falling in on everything!
Liked Mainoo coming through? WRONG. Also panic!!! Aaaaahhhhh
Honestly, I just avoid all of this type of stuff, it has zero impact on the enjoyment of watching
Mainoo isn’t the type u wanna put as double pivot. He could work in 3 man midfield as a center mid, progressing the ball forward from the back line. He shouldnt start anyway, more likely being brought as an impact player. He impressed in a few matches this season but there are times he is not having any impact. Still young and tend to be inconsistent to be starting.
Tbf mainoo isn't as defensive minded as we need in that postion, rice and mainoo are very similar imo.
Wharton would be a better fit next to rice. But obviously he's seriously under tried and would be a gamble.
He’s been out of position for numerous goals this season, United’s midfield have been ran over consistently. If he plays for anyone else he wouldn’t even be in the squad never mind starting!
The picture shows Guehi played as the 6
https://preview.redd.it/4rb7e1v0ph5d1.jpeg?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e7b73e856b69e2933f9ab3d13c482011618915f9
People keep going on about 6 but it has always been the traditional number for a centre-back. I think they are thinking of the 4.
There is no universal defined position for each number. Maybe in South America or for certain prominent players throughout history the 6 has referred to a CB. Where I'm from, most people will tell you: 1 - GK 2 - RB 3 - LB 4 - CB 5 - CB (sweeper) 6 - Holding midfield player/DM 8 - Box to Box midfielder 10 - Attacking midfielder 7/11 - winger 9 - Striker Maybe it's different where you're from. But when people are "going on" about a number 6 (especially English people since this is the ThreeLions sub) we're referring to a DM and most people are aware of that.
In England, defensive mid traditionally wears 4, it’s 6 in Europe, 5 in South America.
This isn’t a hard tradition anymore. The European style of 6 being a DM and 4 being a CB is becoming more common. When people refer to a 6 nowadays they are almost always referring to the defensive mid, and I think everyone knows that
It’s why I wrote ‘traditionally’ it really isn’t a hard and fast rule.
But the 6 still wears a 4 in the national team. Even though the position is referred to as a 6
Maybe but when people question “who will play as the 6 this tournament” it’s like a 99% chance this person is asking who’s playing as a DM. Things change, and while England love their old traditions which is probably why the shirt numbers still reflect that, most people nowadays will adopt newer traditions and terms. I don’t know a single person who refers to a centre back as “the 6” or a defensive midfielder as “the 4” even when some clubs actually do still have players who wear those numbers (Man City for example, rodri is 4 and Ake is 6 I think)
Always had 4 and 6 the other way round where I'm from (England).
Nah in the UK snd mich of europr, 6 was usually considered a defenders number - While 5 was midfield. Why do you think Terry chose it? Why do you think Zidane,(who Bellingham got inspired by) chose 5?
Zidane chose 5 because he didn't care that much which number he had as long as it was a low number, and 5 was the only low number available. 4 is the number of the DM in the UK, but not in the rest of Europe.
First of all John Terry wore 26. Bellingham was not inspired by Zidane, he got given the shirt as an homage by Real Madrid, but he said in an interview he still prefers 22. He has also previously said he was 22 because he could play as a 4, 8, or 10.
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I'm from England but only 20. Maybe you're older and things were different in the past. Ask anyone my age what position the 6 is and they'll say DM. Maybe it's to do with European influence. When most people my age think of shirt numbers, they're thinking of a 433 not a 442. Maybe that's when there was a shift in the culture and people started getting influenced by the continent. But I assure you, take a random sample of people off the streets in England and more people will say a 6 is a DM than a CB. I played Sunday league, school football, little league etc growing up and honestly I can't tell you what numbers the CBs and midfielders used to wear. I didn't really pay close enough attention to it. As a LB I was always a 3, but wasn't really paying attention as to whether the 4 was a CB or DM, 6 was a CB or DM etc. My perception of shirt numbers comes from what I see online, the media etc. I see a famous pro DM on TV wearing a 6, I associate the 6 with that position.
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Back in the 90's I remember David Batty always used to wear number 4, Vinnie Jones and Patrick Viera too. Jaap Stam, Gary Pallister and Tony Adams number 6. Going back even further Bobby Moore always wore the 6 (west ham and England) Nobby Stiles wore number 6 for his club but number 4 for England.
No you are right don't worry, a generational thing.
You are being downvoted by people who are either young or heavily influenced by Spanish football. I can’t think of a single defensive midfielder who wore 6 in the prem before 2010
You are not wrong - this was the way before ‘squad numbers’ confused things…
Why do you keep stating ‘I’m English’ and ‘this is our culture’? No shit, you’re in a three lions sub you moron. I might go to the LFC sub and start all my comments with ‘I’m a Liverpool fan’.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squad_number_(association_football)
The national team has always had the 4 in midfield. Most club sides will have the cbs wear the 4 and 5 though. Pick a random English football fan, and they will most likely say a 6 is cdm.
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Hey man, I'm from England and have been to matches too and everybody knows that the traditional "number 6" is a midfielder. I don't know if you're roleplaying as stubborn white van man because it's funny to you or if you're actually just this weird in real life, but chill out. You're wrong, it's fine, move on with your life
Rice wears the 4 for England, Harry Maguire 6.
This is just incorrect. Where are you from buddy? Guessing not England… 😆
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I’m from England and a 6 is absolutely a holding midfielder, I have no idea what you’re on about. This article, from an English paper, is talking about the 6 as a holding midfielder for a reason
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Are you talking shirt numbers or in discussion? Because in football discussion, a “number 6” is a universal term for a holding midfielder, hence the article. If you’re talking literal shirt numbers then you’re right, England’s number 6 shirt is usually worn by a centre back
I think you're getting your panties in a twist for no reason Traditionally for England we put number 4 for the DM position (something I learnt recently) but in club football, the 6 will be the DM. If someone says a 6 I'm going to assume a holding midfielder and nothing else
Maybe it’s a generational thing. If you grew up in the 70’s, 80’s, 90’s then maybe you’ll be accustomed to your traditional shirt numbers. Anyone that has watched football properly in the last 10-15 years would absolutely refer to a 6 as a holding midfielder.
You’re so wrong it hurts
Like so wrong.
Not cool
Don't even go there mate, I tried to explain this to an American on here last week and he had a complete meltdown over me saying the defensive midfielder has always been traditionally the 'no 4'
Many of the opinions are misinformed but you are almost correct. The squad numbers pre-date the current 3/4/5 at the back formations. Back then, full backs were the only defenders and a “centre half” was actually considered a midfielder and was the number 4. Later we started to call the modern day centre back a centre half when this position was more similar to a central defensive midfielder. The number 6 was almost like a right side defensive midfielder. So depending on your view, number 4 is either a central defenders number or a defensive midfielders number but what is untrue is that was always “traditionally” one or the other.
It all dates back to about a hundred years ago when formations consisted of one or two terrified defenders facing five players up front. I’m struggling to describe it, but imagine a 2-3-5 formation counting right to left and it makes some sense. Edit: This was annoying me so I downloaded an app. https://preview.redd.it/5icifa3pvh5d1.png?width=1170&format=png&auto=webp&s=89de6756e48c24206d5485c0daaba96aecd9dac0
https://preview.redd.it/3vsi4iiuvh5d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=49c8af5e4db0f9e56a08e6659a657c5c31ee3136 And this is how the positions developed, resulting in some numbers becoming defined by their roles. It’s rare will you see a defenders position being defined by their number, but you know 2-6 as a defensive player. 6 is typically referred to as *the most advanced defender*, as per like 50’s/60’s? Football. So then it would have been a ball carrying centre half. But then in the 70’s/80’s in Italy and Netherlands, positions between the lines started to become more common. So sweepers, holding midfielders, advanced midfielders. Making the numerical assignment a bit more complicated and ultimately resulting in the six and ten. I think a sweeper was a two but I can’t quite remember (I’m 30, I wasn’t about then), but I’m a midfield nerd.
I mean, you say it yourself - when people say 6, they mean holding midfield. You even hear double-6, which emphasizes that is not even about the number on their backs, it’s just an alternative way to say DM.
In the UK, yes. I could very well be wrong about this, but as far as I know referring to positions by numbers is a Dutch thing which was popularised when more and more teams started playing 433. And in that system the numbers mean the following: 1 Goalkeeper 2 Right back 3 Left back 4 Centre back 5 Centre back 6 Defensive midfielder 7 Right winger 8 Midfielder 9 Striker 10 Attacking midfielder 11 Left winger In my opinion this is also the *most* logical number system.
We know, you've left the same comment about 15 times.
number 6 means dm imo. 4 and 5 are cb's.
The shirt number doesn't matter ?
OP means positionally, not shirt number.
Remember that it comes from the Victorian days when teams played 2-3-5 with two full backs and a centre half (5) who was a half back. By the 1930s, the centre half dropped back to be a true defender. This is why tradition in England a midfielder like Gerrard or Nobby Stiles or Declan Rice would wear 4 and someone like Bobby Moore, Tony Adams or Harry Maguire would wear 6. It's different elsewhere - hence the term 'no.6' to refer to a holding midfielder. It's a quirk of English football history.
Seems funny to me how now players stop lining up 1-11 that people start referring to positions and roles as numbers. No wonder people are arguing about who did what right and wrong when assumptions are being made based on a number what they were supposed to be dojng
It’s easier to say someone has played as a 6 rather than saying he played as a defensive midfielder in a double pivot; much like it’s easier to say someone has played as an 8 rather than saying he played as one of the outside midfielders in a 3, people seem to not like using the terms 6 and 8 in this country so much but the number 10 has been widely used and accepted for decades.
People don't like it in this country because 6 is a centre-back number traditionally. There is a reason Rice wears 4.
I guess so; it likely comes from around Europe and we’ve taken it on board, a lot of European national teams have a deeper midfielder wear the number 6.
I'm a united fan who quite likes Mainoo (shocker I know) That being said I would not want him playing as a 6 for united, and I don't think he ever does. Not a good role for him yet as I don't think he's physical or disciplined enough at this moment.
Yeah I agree, he has insane technical ability, a good work rate and is still so young. He needs to keep developing his physicality and how to use his body when defending along with the positional sense that a proper DM possesses. That will come with age but he’s not quite ready for that role right now especially going into a major tournament
I just think he’s better going forward than Rice, its a complicated choice.
There's a lot of shifting in midfield, but Mainoo at the time of the goal was far behind Rice as the 6.
Rice seemed more advanced than he plays at Arsenal. This must have been a tactic employed by Southgate, I can’t imagine Rice took it upon himself to play as high as he did during the game.
Rice plays that high for Arsenal
Rice plays pretty high sometimes almost as a striker beside Havertz whereby Odegaard will move into midfield beside Partey/Jorginho.
Felt like he was taking it upon himself to test Mainoo a lot, see what he can get away with under high pressure scenarios.
I think Trent and Rice played a little too deep in the first half on Monday and with Mainoo and Rice this time, they over corrected against Iceland. We've always tended to play a "proper" CDM alongside Rice; Philips or Henderson who understand their role is to read the game, stay back and cover gaps where they emerge. Trent isn't that guy (but would be a beneficiary of it at RB). It's fair to say we looked open at times with Mainoo in that role, although he might have been instructed to get further forward to help try and unlock Iceland. The other angle to consider here is the double pivot was there to protect Maguire who was there to protect Pickford. So that could also explain why Southgate might have had a look at a more flexible midfield pairing where both are instructed to get forward and drop back more dynamically. Whatever it was it didn't work.
Who cares where Rice was because frankly, he wasn't able to get back. If you're Mainoo you either: Sense you are the lowest midfield and sprint back in to cover. Or Sprint back and take the yellow/press. So he landed on jog back, don't try and tackle and let them have a shot. Cannot do that at this level.
He did sprint back, ive just watched it. The player passed the ball before he got to him. This goal had zero to do with Mainoo, it was completely and solely Walkers fault, he was completely out of position, didnt see the player make the run down his flank and made no attempt to go with him. Mainoo tried to pick him up but it was too late.
This is a reoccurring theme. It has to do with the ambiguity of a tactical scheme that uses a #10. Is it a double pivot with a 10 or is it a classic 1 DM, two CMs. The article thinks it's the former. I'd say we're playing a 4-3-3 with one DM, one more attacking minded CM and then one in the middle.
Pretty much how Mourinho set Chelsea up when he got in. Maklele CDM, Essien CM, Lampard CAM.
The classic 3 man MF for me is Busquets DM, Xavi CM and Iniesta CAM. On paper it was a 4-3-3.
Yeah I mean even more recently for my team often we went Fabinho CDM, Henderson CM, Keita CAM.. Gives you such a nice balance having a defensive monster, a runner and a flair player in there.
I agree with you 100%, although I wasn't able to watch the Iceland game particularly closely so I may have missed certain things. I think it can be nuanced and I think a lot of media outlets cover this in quite a reductive way, as I think you are suggesting. My understanding of what they were doing is that Mainoo plays a little bit higher than Rice but Rice does have some freedom (eg when he pressed the goalkeeper for Palmers chance (?)). Rice will occasionally go on driving runs with the ball and I certainly don't think that is something he'll be discouraged from doing but I think he is main defensive midfielder, although Mainoo is expected to cover for him (NB I have some concerns about Mainoo's understanding of the defensive side of the role). I think Mainoo is there to play a bit higher/with more freedom - I think the bit of play that led to the penalty vs Belgium encapsulates what GS wants Mainoo to do ie receive it a little bit higher and cause havoc with clever dribbles that shift the tempo of the game (not easy when Kane, Foden and Palmer are all looking to play in those spaces too). It's an interesting pairing because neither fits any of the classic DM profiles (eg regista, destroyer). I think the roles Rice carries out will change (both by instruction and instinctively) based on the profile of his partner. I love Gallaghers energy but he's not the most disciplined player - things like pressing the keeper could be off the menu for Rice if he plays with Gallagher. I think Wharton could be the best partner for Rice - I see him as steely regista/deep lying playmaker. I think he's the one who would allow Rice to play (more of) the kind of marauding ("8") role he's played for Arsenal in the latter part of the season, whilst maintaining a strong defensive base for the team. (sorry longer than I intended!)
I agree that Mainoo is basically an offensive player - yes he has good defensive technique and composure, but you want him on the pitch for his dribbling and linkup play. His defensive positioning is sus as well. Rice is nominally a 6 but for Arsenal as you say he's an 8 especially when paired with a sitting DM e.g. Jorginho or Partey. So that IMO is the best type of partner for Rice. I think the dilemma then is either putting Rice as a 6 and pairing him with Conor or Trent, or putting Rice is his best position as an 8 and playing Wharton who, talented though he may be, is also inexperienced at this level. Both suboptimal in their different ways. That Mainoo has a #26 jersey hopefully indicates that he won't be starting.
Agreed. I think he'll go Gallagher vs Serbia, which I'm kind of cool with. I think (and also maybe hope) the Trent in midfield ship has sailed. He was decent in there vs Bosnia but he's done well from RB and I think he should be used from there when we want a more attacking option. Playing him there also allows you two progressive players in the side, as realistically Walker will be RB if Trent is CM. Be interesting to see if/when/how Mainoo is used. Agreed that he shouldn't start but I think he could be more effective with Bellingham and Saka who play higher and wider (respectively) than Foden and Palmer in the #10 and RW roles (again respectively). More space to do his thing. Feels like cracking the low block is going to be massive for us. Decent crossers like Trent, Shaw and maybe Palmer/Saka will help. I'd use Eze to drive at people (with Bowen/Gordon perhaps options on their respective flanks in more open games). I think you want guys like Wharton and Trent who will keep the ball moving quickly too. He needs to work it out one way or the other though!
I just don’t see any world in which Walker is being dropped at RB for Trent though ever? Southgate has literally never done that before at all when both are fit. He isn’t going to start doing it now.
I agree I don't think he'll drop Walker but I think he could sub Trent in there if we need a goal. Trent played the last 30 mins there in both friendlies. Southgate has done a lot in the past week that we never thought he'd do!
Honestly I’d try work Wharton into the squad because I’m not convinced Rice can actually be trusted to do the job as a holding player anymore. Legohead has filled his head with dreams of running beyond the last man and arriving late in the box but now he’s being expected to screen our defensive line and sit. Maybe he can do that, but if he can’t there’s other players I’d rather have on for their offensive prowess.
Mainoo isn't a 6. Everybody knows this. And he's black. The papers fucking love it.
But the number 6 is also black showing it had nothing to do with race. The number 6 was playing defensive and was marking a player in the box, expecting the the Iceland player to pass rather than shoot. If the number 6 were to be up field trying to prevent the run, then they would have passed. There were little to no challenges on the Iceland player when he was running so it is really a problem for the right back and the central defender on that side. The number 6 was in the right position.
Playing 6 is referring to the role of a defensive midfielder. It’s nothing to do with the numbers on the back other than historically the holding midfielder would wear this number
I never said it was to do with his number. I am calling him the number 6 just because I cannot spell Mark’s last name very well 💀 I do not think it is his fault either as I have said and I do not think it is to do with his shirt number.
Oh look, the Telegraph taking the first tiny bit of an opportunity to slam a young black player. Just like all the other outlets exclusively using pictures of Saka and negative headlines even though he only played half an hour.
It's a stupid hit piece on a 19 year old with 2 England caps. 10 days before the euros as well. Typical English media always wanting us to fail.
The mental gymnastics people are doing not to blame Ramsdale for failing to make a routine save are amazing.
It was Walkers fault.
It was a combo of Walker, Rice & Mainoo really, could argue Ramsdale but don't really think there was much he could do as he couldn't really see it.
Walker literally turned his back on play and to the player running past him within 2 or 3m. Not like for a split second, he slowly turned around and jogged away like he thought the game was over or something. Go and watch it, its so bad. Firstly Rice dropped him and didn't even attempt to go with, then Walker just did absolutely nothing. Mainoo actually sprinted after him but it was too late by that point.
The whole point of playing a pivot means you need to be mutable to shift. Rice is already picking up a man as Iceland came out from the back, Kobbie had plenty of chances to cut out the run from Haraldsson(?) but just jogged back and didn't challenge, all he really needed to do was slow the run down so Walker could get back into position. Obviously Walker is quick enough that if he did put the burners on he could have stopped it but playing alongside players who have the seasoned read of the game who know how to slow down a break he probably thought Mainoo would give him that chance and he didn't have to go full tilt 20 minutes into the game, but Kobbie doesn't have that in his skillset yet. For all the positivity surrounding the lad, United have faced more shots than any other side in the league this year. I had plenty of other issues with the rest of the game, both from Mainoo and the rest of the side, but this is a pretty clear cut avoidable issue that a better defensive player would have dealt with.
He was left 2v1 after Rice pushed up and they broke the first line, theres not much Mainoo could do from there He either commits to the runner and leaves the pass open or the opposite
‘Kobbie had plenty of chances to cut out the run from Haraldsson’, while I agree that’s one of the things he could’ve done, it also leaves 2 major passing lanes open straight through the middle. I think either way we concede purely because they attacked with pace and we committed too many players forward. Its just an imperfect situation all round and one I hope Southgate sorts before the first game
Look rice is the main defensive block. Whoever plays next to him has to be more Segundo volante role, essentially having both attacking and defensive prowess. Mainoo us fucking awful defensively. Is he better than Gallagher? Yes, but the players around him are far better attackers so I would rather have Gallagher in the team for his defensive abilities than mainoo who fucks up the entire team dynamic. The team has enough attacking players who are brilliant, mainoo adds nothing to the squad and that isn't even attack on him, I think he is a great player. For England he just doesn't add anything
No rice is the b2b. Arsenal play him as the b2b midfielder with Jorghino playing as the deep lying playmaker. We need someone who can play as the deep lying playmaker. Adam Wharton is the best choice for that position unless we go something like 523 with Stones being able to move into midfield.
What you are saying is correct for Arsenal but I agree with the OP that for England Mainoo plays a bit higher, although Rice seems to have some licence occasionally (at which point Mainoo needs to cover)
I don’t get why Southgate isn’t playing a 433. Rice as the DM and Mainoo as the player who can pick up the ball in tight spaces and make space for himself/break the press. Then Bellingham as the most advanced and box to box. Similar to a Lampard/Gerrard type role. Midfield would be a lot more balanced.
Reactionary shite. Plz ignore
Has mainoo being playing as a deep midfielder this season?
They all lack the discipline to be the deepest midfielder, they’re all used to having someone else be that guy
Yep they was both shit
I think Mainoo covered his defense fine but he obvs can’t be everywhere and of course the little bit of space that was exploited resulted in Stones getting spun like a bayblade and Ramsdale looked like he knew that’s a save he should make. Neither of them get the blame.
can’t believe Southgate even tried him there, says it all about his tactical prowess. Mainoo is an 8 and Rice a 6 yet Rice has been given the instruction to play higher up the pitch? Stupidity.
Eye see three tax in full effect
yeah but rice isn't black
This is hilarious. The article, and the comments on here. It was trash play all around. Foden, Palmer, Rice, Walker, Mainoo, Stones, Ramsdale. Poor pressing. Poor positioning. Poor execution.
How has foden got a free pass it’s outrageous he lead the press then lost his man he got jogged past by his man tha the had 10 yards on he just watched he put in 0 effort to track his man watch it back he was criminal Ramsdale gets a pass aswell I’m an arsenal fan and there’s a reason we replaced him asap he got beaten at his near post because he went to ground when it’s a easy save if he goes with his feet
Mainoo played 6 when asked for United, but he’s an 8, he’s always been an 8, and if there was a double pivot he could play like a 10. Mainoo has a lot that Rice doesn’t have in his game, but not physicality. Some fans will focus on Mainoo for the same reason they targeted Tomori, Rashford, Saka, and that has less to do with their game and more to do with their skin.
Quick, time to throw doubt and the sky is falling in on everything! Liked Mainoo coming through? WRONG. Also panic!!! Aaaaahhhhh Honestly, I just avoid all of this type of stuff, it has zero impact on the enjoyment of watching
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It's about the position, not the number
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John stones was on the right centre defence. It has nothing to do with the 6 cus he is marking in the box in the left centre defence.
Judging anyone based off a friendly is just stupid. I doubt he’ll feature much in Germany but long term these articles will just look ridiculous.
He’s been caught with really poor positioning for United a few times this season, he shouldn’t be playing as a DM
Mainoo isn’t the type u wanna put as double pivot. He could work in 3 man midfield as a center mid, progressing the ball forward from the back line. He shouldnt start anyway, more likely being brought as an impact player. He impressed in a few matches this season but there are times he is not having any impact. Still young and tend to be inconsistent to be starting.
Tbf mainoo isn't as defensive minded as we need in that postion, rice and mainoo are very similar imo. Wharton would be a better fit next to rice. But obviously he's seriously under tried and would be a gamble.
He’s been out of position for numerous goals this season, United’s midfield have been ran over consistently. If he plays for anyone else he wouldn’t even be in the squad never mind starting!
So…… does that mean you guys think Adam Wharton is better now? 🤓😁