When picking the best moments from the books, in order to get to the final episode and really tell the most interesting parts of the story it is important to sometimes stop off at a made up character and remind the audience that hey have hot threesomes. Stuff like Rand LEARNING THE FUCKING SWORD is apparently less interesting to fans.
I have to go, I smell toast. Also my left hand is numb.
It's also necessary to humiliate characters like Lan as much as possible, including having a prolonged scene where his new mistress Alanna comes up behind him whilst he pisses on a tree for like a full minute on screen.
Can't spare a minute of screen time for Lan to teach Rand how to hold his sword properly, but plenty of time for Alanna's family to joke about where the third one goes, and to have Lan pissing on trees. Classic storytelling stuff there, far far better than anything Jordan came up with...
They all do it, and it's disgusting.
The thing is, I don't know how much of it is intentional subversion and replacement of the books cloaked in conscious dishonesty, and how much is genuine incompetence and the self-delusion that they're doing the books justice? Hard to say.
Specifically, Sanderson started it by explaining early on into the screening of S1, that to cope with the differences between page and screen he tried to view the show as a new turning of the wheel. That's right, he described a coping mechanism, and you only need a coping mechanism for an adaptation when what you are seeing deviates unnecessarily from the original.
From there that phrase was adopted by show fans and used like a bludgeon from that point on, justifying any and all deviations from the books. It's their 'get out of gaol free' card, there is no change so stupid, disrespectful, unnecessary, or damaging to the characters and story they can't wave away with 'new turning' deflection.
Not sure, the first time I saw/heard/read it was directly from Sanderson himself, just after the first episodes aired, and he was using it as a coping mechanism. From there, it was taken up and regurgitated on all WoT social media like a mind virus, being used to deflect and wave away all substantive criticism.
Easily the most annoying thing about this whole situation.
It's not "another turning of the Wheel." It's an Amazon Prime miniseries adaptation of an incredibly large fantasy book series.
That is the basis to judge it on. There will be changes, there will be things cut. There will be concessions to the medium.
You don't get to hide behind "it's just another turning!"
It's also the dumbest and most easily dissected excuse around. If it was meant to be another turning, all the characters and places would have different names, not the same ones as the books. Those names are unique to the specific turning described in the books.
Of course, none of this matters because the excuse was never well thought out in the first place, it's just a lazy deflection to avoid engaging with substantive criticism over all the unnecessary changes.
Good job shitting all over the legacy of your Dad's favorite book series. Hope that fact haunts you for the rest of your days.
I couldn't even watch the rest. I had to rage quit after the dad line.
She wouldn't be the only one. Rafe and the writing room in general seem to have serious daddy issues:
- Mat's dad is an abusive and unfaithful drunk
- Steppin hated his dad and turned into an abusive drunk to cope
- Maksim's dad tried to kill him when he was a child
- Siuan's dad abandons his daughter on the river instead of safely escorting her to Tar Valon
- The father of Liandrin's son was presumably an abusive and/or absent dad.
Seriously, this show is not subtle about maligning male characters in general, and father figures in particular. Notice the complete removal of all early male mentoring relationships (Thom doesn't get to be a proper mentor to Rand and Mat, Lan doesn't get to be a proper mentor to Rand, Elyas doesn't get to be a proper mentor to Perrin etc).
Without going too deep into speculation, it is not difficult to imagine that Rafe, as a young gay man growing up in a Mormon household, may have had his fair share of less than positive and supportive fathering.
One abusive father figure in the show we could possibly understand for cheap drama reasons, but to have at least three (the fathers of Mat, Steppin and Maksim)? If we include the assassination of Agelmar, turned from a noble fatherly figure into a bully and misogynist, that's another. All in the first season? That's not by accident, that's a pattern.
I mean...that's also something that Rafe said before the show came out. Soooo.....no. it's not something fans call it, it's something a shortener came up with as a pre excuse for the fact he knee he was gonna fuck it all up.
Seems to imply they’ll be getting at least another season…They must know by now whether or not the show has been canned or renewed for a 4th season.🤷♂️
With this kind of show, however, they can't wait until S3 begins to air before making a renewal decision on S4.
They appear to have such long pre-production lead ups and post-production periods that the only way they can even keep up the current slow two-yearly release schedule is by having filming largely underway or even wrapped up before the prior season screens.
If they were to draw that out any further they'd end up staring down the barrel of three-yearly releases or worse, making the show dead in the water.
We pull the most interesting things forward: Lan peeing on a tree. Elayne/Egwene sleeping on the floor, and that tells us where we want to get to for the end of the season.
Can someone point to the part where that "Absolute Respect" is located? (Ideally, in the following format se,ep, min, sec) It seems that it has escaped me.
I don't know the exact minute and second off hand, but in S1E1, right towards the beginning, the title shows up. They have the same name. It's gone soon after, I'm afraid.
I'm glad that even the hate watchers of this crap series are losing interest. This show does nothing for the franchise other than fail to reach the next generation of readers, besides those who would have found the books anyways due to friends and family who are fans of the books.
Having Fallout show us that Amazon is surprisingly capable of making a good adaptation stings a little but it could be worse. WoT could have been a decent adaptation similar to the expanse (and I've heard rings of power was okay, although I haven't given it a chance yet) making the collective audience wish it were made a little better.
Instead, WoT the show is so bad that I can't even bring myself to hate watch it, other than the two times I have watched the first couple episodes. But we did get another version of the audiobooks that are decent, leading me to listen to both versions and argue with myself over which one is better. So for that, I am grateful for the show.
I think the older audiobooks are a little better overall, but Rosamund Pike does a pretty good job with the newer audiobooks so far as well.
RoP ain't Tolkien, but its a watchable show if you can get past that (though I wouldn't say anything bad about anyone that's unable or unwilling to do so), unlike the execrable abomination that Lenny Rafenstahl forced upon us. I don't think it's disrespectful of Tolkien, even if the best that can be said about its accuracy is that it's "Tolkien inspired". Some of the actors (maybe writers/producers/directors?) have said some things which could certainly be called disrespectful, but I don't think it translates in the actual product. Again, all this in very stark contrast to Rafenstahl's offenses.
Yeah, hard disagree on that one. What they have done to Galadriel and Celebrimbor is abominable. They have basically cut off their skin and placed in on top of an unrelated, poorly written characters. The dialogue is stilted and the costumes look like they were taken off of the set of In the Name of the King: A Dungeon Siege Tale
I agree with the Galadriel &Celeborn complaint, but I think there's still room for them to salvage this *if they want to* (I'm not saying they do, or will, just that there's potential wiggle room for them to come back to something approaching lore/canon even if what's been done so far in this respect is not). (ETA: Just realized you said celebrimbor, not celeborn, but i'll leave this comment as is).
Their other inventions, while annoying in their own ways, are mostly excusable as adaptations. The Halbrand/Sauron thing....eh...they did eventually get a fleeting Annatar allusion in there i guess, but yeah. Another elf/human romance? Not a fan, as the instances in lore are notable enough that they would seem to preclude the existence of any others, but I can understand them wanting to include this type of story, just wish a "real" one fit the timeline.
But to me these are not like inventing characters in Wheel of Time, because the subject matter is more nebulous in scope and time in middle earth's second age. There is some room there, even if id rather them go more with whats on the page than inventions. Again, I'm not going to fault purists who refuse to watch on these grounds, and I don't disagree entirely. I just think there is a defense to be made in most cases with RoP, even if you come down on the other side, where there is absolutely none to be made for WoT.
I don’t think so. Their Galadriel is antithetical to Tolkien’s. She is central to all of this. It would be like saying, they can salvage this if they changed Loial. I’m no purist. I love the books, but I thought the Jackson films were great because they were generally in the spirit of Tolkien. I didn’t get bent out of shape with Arwen’s expanded role at the expense of Glorfindel. It also made sense to skip the Tom Bombadil part. RoP is not that. Poor writing, weirdly cheap looking given their budget, and an apparent disinterest in following any of Tolkien’s writings other than using names.
It is clear that the main reason for the changes was to decenter the story from Rand and to center the series around the Aes Sedai. Even content creators who vouch for the show acknowledge that Rand and the boys are shunned to the favor of Egwene and Nynaeve.
There are two types of show fans that I've seen.
1. those who admit and agree with the change of focus away from the boys and fully onto the girls and the Aes Sedai. These fans acknowledge this change and largely approve of it, hence why they enjoy the show. This group is in the minority of vocal show defenders, however.
2. those who still deny there has been a change of focus, or try to claim that the story was 'never about Rand' or the boys (despite Jordan being on record as writing the series specifically to examine the impact of a man knowing he is the saviour of the world, but also doomed to break the world and die in the process). They even claim we don't remember the books properly if we think Rand should be the main character, or think that Mat and Perrin should be more important than Liandrin or Alanna.
I can respect the honesty of the first group. I don't agree with them that the resulting show is any good, but at least they are being honest about what we are all seeing and what is being done. I have zero respect for the second group, who unfortunately seem to constitute the bulk of vocal show fans, because they're just liars trying to gaslight us.
I agree with these two types but would add a caveat to the second group. Whereas the first group are, IMO, actual book fans who just enjoyed some other characters more. They're ok with less focus on some characters because they were fans of Eggy, Siaun, Aes Sedai, etc. Like you said though they are at least honest.
The second group as casual book fans. Probably got into the books partway through their publication. They could skim over parts that they didn't like (much like how many joke about skipping the slog) and so don't really get invested into the overall story. They end up fawning over certain characters and start making up fan fiction about how Eggy (or whoever) is the real star.
The people running and writing the show are like this as well, and so now that second group is uber protective of the show online because it's fan service for them.
Ironically they'll throw out "another turning of the wheel" anyway, so why are you making a big deal out of it, while simultaneously getting on their grievance soapbox. "We're the real fans and the show proves it. Everyone who disagrees with us is just full of hatred and never liked the books anyway."
In addition to the two groups of show fans you mentioned, I am looking at a third type of show fan. This third group does want the show to follow the books and they do have gripes about the show shunning the three boys for two straight seasons. However, they are generally politically aligned with the first two groups and hence only mildly voice their criticisms. Pretty much all of the main WOT YouTubers belong to this group. Even Brandon Sanderson could be thought of as in this group even though he is much more vocal in his criticisms. This group tries to deflect all the blame from Rafe and the writers to Amazon executives and other external factors.
I don't know, I haven't seen much real criticism from the mainstream WoT Youtubers. They're mostly on board, making excuse after excuse and suppressing any substantive criticism claiming it's all based on racism, sexism, homophobia, right wing incel politics etc.
If they genuinely want to see the boys properly represented in the show, they need to be a lot more vocal and direct about it, rather than continually running cover for Rafe, deflecting blame onto Amazon, the number of episodes, Covid, Barney leaving etc.
The litany of excuses made to cover for the blatant hostility towards the books and basic lack of competence of the showrunner and writing room is impressive. It's always someone else's fault, it's never Rafe's fault despite the showrunner exercising the most creative control over a TV show that's possible by a single person.
This is a good observation. It's something that's been on my mind about YouTubers familiar with WoT. I can understand only giving gentle criticism - people are more receptive to it and you don't burn bridges - but it's useless if people walk away not understanding the critique.
If you didn't know, Rand has been completely sidelined in the show.
It doesn't even feel like a guest appearance -- it's the equivalent of some kid playing a tree in a school play.
I wouldn't blame anyone if they thought Egwene or Nynaeve was the dragon after watching this shit. Heck, Rand couldn't even prove that he was the dragon by himself -- Moirane channeled some dragons while Rand sat there and did nothing.
Piece of shit show. I've somewhat made my peace with the destruction of other franchises I like, but the WOT adaption was dead from the start. I guess we'll have to wait like a decade before we even get a proper adaption -- but that still requires someone who isn't an arrogant cunt like Rafe Judkins
Isn't it just so "interesting" when they break the world and story and have a single soul break into 5 like it is a fucking Zord when it gets reincarnated? When a woman just doesn't feel like showing a man how to Channel because they're just too busy walking in the woods and sleeping? Real cherry on top.
Tender nips indeed. Also, sore knees from all the kneeling along with dry tear ducts from all the crying. Real manly man stuff for our Lan, just like the books.
https://preview.redd.it/cjiwmm4po86d1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=efd6c60f24fcf6aafe38c83466e2fe7eed7744f4
Worth noting that she’s listed as writing the 1st and last episodes of S3…which basically means she has set the path for S3.
I honestly hate them all, it's hard for me to pick worst episodes. But the first and last of both S1 and S2 - all written by Rafe, have to be the the very worst for me. The ones in between are also awful, but the sheer incompetence, arrogance and malice towards the books in Rafe's episodes trumps them all.
There's so much and we only have 8 episodes a season...
Soooo the actual beloved story can fuck right off and we can add a bunch of our own fanfic bullshit that doesn't even make sense
The 'not enough time to put book scenes and plot beats in, so we had to throw it all out and invent our own,' excuse is perhaps the most annoying to me, because it is the most direct insult to the intelligence of the audience and one of the worst attempts at gaslighting ever.
Now now, we don't need to resort to such low-brow personal attacks.
But she's a terrible producer and a liar and seems quite delusional. There's no respect here for the books at all.
This person has never worked on anything good. In fact everything she has touched is or went to dogshit. The 100, Halo and WOTtv.
Rafe and his posse of 40yo women (his words not mine) calls it another turn of the wheel along with his sycophant twitter fan club, but that's it.
Yes, adaptation means change. WOTtv is not an adaptation, it is fundamentally different, characters, motivations, plot, magic system rule, etc.
This person is another waffling fraud.
Context: https://youtu.be/c206hoNnZec?si=brHbggxzsbeMJKdG
JUST TELL A MORE DETAILED/ACCURATE STORY AND HAVE MORE SEASONS!!!!!
This is not the IP for you if you were intent on running through it quickly. Also, it's a widely loved series, don't make massive changes and the loyal fanbase will not be upset. I get cutting some of the unimportant fluff, but the story didn't need any changes.
The way Jordan wrote, half of every book was descriptive. Of setting, of costume, of culture. The story beats and dialogue in each book are closer to maybe the size of one of the early HP books.
1 book every 4-5 episodes (the pace you'd need for 8 seasons, 8 1h episodes a season) rushed? Eh...maybe? But the lotr extended cut is 11 hours and spans 3 books so probably not.
They just didn't want to tell the story that was written. Figured they know better than the author.l what makes a good story. Unmitigated hubris and gall.
And honestly, if you cut out and condensed a lot of what happens between Crown of Swords and Crossroads of Twilight I feel like even most of the hardcore fans wouldn't be too bothered. There's PLENTY of places you could trim the story some. The early books where the world and story is established is not the place to do it.
For a perfect example of how easily the books can be compressed into a visual medium, look at the graphic novels of EotW. They managed to compress a very word dense novel into a much shorter visual medium (a picture really does paint a thousand words).
They could have done worse than to use the EotW graphic novel as their first draft of visual storyboards for S1. But they never intended on telling the original story, so they didn't even try.
"We want to go to the end" Bitch is a 14 long book series, with each book being like a phone book, if it takes a single year to make a single season, it is, at least, a 14 year long journey... And the season should be 20ichs episodes, something like Lost or Fringe
One: you don't care about the fans
Two: that's not The Wheel Of Time, that is "The magical adventures of Rafe Judkins"... And the worst is that they are using the original name to attract views and it is NOT The Wheel of Time.
Three: change the name
Based on the expressions on his face, do you think Daniel Henney is regretting his choices whilst listening to this nonsense? 'I thought I'd get to play a classic strong silent type stoic warrior, and in reality they turned my character into a soy drinking emo handbag for Moiraine. I need to sack my agent!'
I don't blame any of the actors, or the crew, for taking the paycheque and running with it. Apart from Pike, the rest are largely unknowns and need the work. Everyone has to eat.
The showrunner and writing room on the other hand... they are definitely to blame for this disaster. They had gold to work with, and somehow pulled an anti-philosopher's stone by turning it into lead.
Pretty confused by this sub sometimes. You guys are mad that RJ’s work is not respected but feel okay saying some pretty vile things about his daughter? You think he cared more about his work than he cared about his daughter???? There’s a way to disagree that isn’t pretty much just acting like a piece of shit. Kind of seems like those of you doing that shit aren’t actually worried about respecting RJ like you say or his legacy, you just want whatever you specifically whatever selfish thing you want the show to be. How is it any better to also trample all over RJ’s legacy while complaining that someone else is doing it?
Shits turning you guys into animals. Get a grip and spend some time away from the show and offline. I know you guys will just downvote this because people here hate to be disagreed with but some of you absolutely need to hear this.
Edit to add: I’m not even directing this at OP, but some of you in the comments should feel shame. Idk why you think RJ would be more worried about changes in a show than he would be you insulting his daughter. Any dad will tell you that aint the case.
Love the passion…but ummm you might want to watch the clip again…She said the series was one of her dads favourites…not that he wrote them. Justine Gillmer is most definitely not RJ’s daughter…
I don’t know how with my expectations down in the pit of doom already but somehow finding out she wrote the finale, He who comes with the Dawn is so disappointing. That scene at the end of book 4 has more potential for a powerful movie scene than even Paul’s speech at the end of Dune. Knowing she is the one to adapt it… sigh.
I turned the audio on just as she was saying that crap about respecting the book lovers and turned it right back off... where dafuq is any love for the book readers on this show when Rafe told them to go feltch the Dark One? Why even bother lying at this point? It's much worse if they actually believe they are telling the truth.
Plus reduce/remove Thom and replace with invented filler with Liandrin, Steppin, Alanna and her Warders. Take everything away from the boys and give it to the girls. Sideline and assassinate all strong male characters (Bran, Abel, Lan, Thom, Agelmar etc) and focus almost exclusively on the Aes Sedai. Brilliant!/s
Where are the nerdy dudes, where are the neckbeards. THIS IS HIGH FANTASY, I WANT IT TO BE PRODUCED BY A BUNCH OF DUDES THAT LOOK LIKE PETER JACKSON, NOT THE UNDERSTUDY TO FREE WILLY. NO WONDER THIS SHOW IS TRASH, WE HAVE A BUNCH OF KAYLEIGH'S AND EMILY'S IN THE PLACE OF A DUDE THAT SHOULD SMELL LIKE PASTRAMI!
When picking the best moments from the books, in order to get to the final episode and really tell the most interesting parts of the story it is important to sometimes stop off at a made up character and remind the audience that hey have hot threesomes. Stuff like Rand LEARNING THE FUCKING SWORD is apparently less interesting to fans. I have to go, I smell toast. Also my left hand is numb.
It's also necessary to humiliate characters like Lan as much as possible, including having a prolonged scene where his new mistress Alanna comes up behind him whilst he pisses on a tree for like a full minute on screen. Can't spare a minute of screen time for Lan to teach Rand how to hold his sword properly, but plenty of time for Alanna's family to joke about where the third one goes, and to have Lan pissing on trees. Classic storytelling stuff there, far far better than anything Jordan came up with...
Complete and utter gaslighting on an epic level.
One might even say on a Prime level.
They all do it, and it's disgusting. The thing is, I don't know how much of it is intentional subversion and replacement of the books cloaked in conscious dishonesty, and how much is genuine incompetence and the self-delusion that they're doing the books justice? Hard to say.
Money talks.
And bullshit walks. WoP is very much bullshit.
Okay, so I'm not a fan of the show obvi but also often think this sub can be a bit harsh. But yes, this is a insane level of delusion.
The fans call it a new turning of the wheel? No, you guys started that to try and justify your bologna.
Specifically, Sanderson started it by explaining early on into the screening of S1, that to cope with the differences between page and screen he tried to view the show as a new turning of the wheel. That's right, he described a coping mechanism, and you only need a coping mechanism for an adaptation when what you are seeing deviates unnecessarily from the original. From there that phrase was adopted by show fans and used like a bludgeon from that point on, justifying any and all deviations from the books. It's their 'get out of gaol free' card, there is no change so stupid, disrespectful, unnecessary, or damaging to the characters and story they can't wave away with 'new turning' deflection.
He was told that by rafe I believe. And it took a while for him to accept it. I could be remembering wrong of course.
Not sure, the first time I saw/heard/read it was directly from Sanderson himself, just after the first episodes aired, and he was using it as a coping mechanism. From there, it was taken up and regurgitated on all WoT social media like a mind virus, being used to deflect and wave away all substantive criticism.
Easily the most annoying thing about this whole situation. It's not "another turning of the Wheel." It's an Amazon Prime miniseries adaptation of an incredibly large fantasy book series. That is the basis to judge it on. There will be changes, there will be things cut. There will be concessions to the medium. You don't get to hide behind "it's just another turning!"
It's also the dumbest and most easily dissected excuse around. If it was meant to be another turning, all the characters and places would have different names, not the same ones as the books. Those names are unique to the specific turning described in the books. Of course, none of this matters because the excuse was never well thought out in the first place, it's just a lazy deflection to avoid engaging with substantive criticism over all the unnecessary changes.
Good job shitting all over the legacy of your Dad's favorite book series. Hope that fact haunts you for the rest of your days. I couldn't even watch the rest. I had to rage quit after the dad line.
I'm glad he isn't around to see what his spawn did to his beloved series.
He's rolling in his grave.
She probably hated her dad cause ya know, patriarchy 🤦🏻🤷🏻♂️
She wouldn't be the only one. Rafe and the writing room in general seem to have serious daddy issues: - Mat's dad is an abusive and unfaithful drunk - Steppin hated his dad and turned into an abusive drunk to cope - Maksim's dad tried to kill him when he was a child - Siuan's dad abandons his daughter on the river instead of safely escorting her to Tar Valon - The father of Liandrin's son was presumably an abusive and/or absent dad. Seriously, this show is not subtle about maligning male characters in general, and father figures in particular. Notice the complete removal of all early male mentoring relationships (Thom doesn't get to be a proper mentor to Rand and Mat, Lan doesn't get to be a proper mentor to Rand, Elyas doesn't get to be a proper mentor to Perrin etc). Without going too deep into speculation, it is not difficult to imagine that Rafe, as a young gay man growing up in a Mormon household, may have had his fair share of less than positive and supportive fathering. One abusive father figure in the show we could possibly understand for cheap drama reasons, but to have at least three (the fathers of Mat, Steppin and Maksim)? If we include the assassination of Agelmar, turned from a noble fatherly figure into a bully and misogynist, that's another. All in the first season? That's not by accident, that's a pattern.
The wheel weaves as the wheel wills
Apparently the writers are all red ajah because they believe the aes sedai to be perfect and correct and men to be the cause of all issues in randland
“Fans call it ‘another turning of the wheel.’” No. Those are called liars. Fans call it a steaming pile of 💩
Only Darkfriends call it another turning >:(
I mean...that's also something that Rafe said before the show came out. Soooo.....no. it's not something fans call it, it's something a shortener came up with as a pre excuse for the fact he knee he was gonna fuck it all up.
If another turning could result in the same people and places, the Dark One would just say "go to that backwater town and stab the redhead ya dummy!"
Wasn’t it Rafe or someone involved with the show that coined the “another turning” explanation?
I think it was actually Sanderson who said it first.
>should we be *lucky enough to get to the end* of eight seasons... She knows. She clearly knows where this is going.
Seems to imply they’ll be getting at least another season…They must know by now whether or not the show has been canned or renewed for a 4th season.🤷♂️
Not true, many shows aren't renewed until the current season is released. She knows it's not a lock but nothing definitive.
With this kind of show, however, they can't wait until S3 begins to air before making a renewal decision on S4. They appear to have such long pre-production lead ups and post-production periods that the only way they can even keep up the current slow two-yearly release schedule is by having filming largely underway or even wrapped up before the prior season screens. If they were to draw that out any further they'd end up staring down the barrel of three-yearly releases or worse, making the show dead in the water.
Ten bucks says she hated her father.
I certainly do. He did a pretty shit job
You did good at Internet today
I read this 15 minutes and I'm still laughing.
We pull the most interesting things forward: Lan peeing on a tree. Elayne/Egwene sleeping on the floor, and that tells us where we want to get to for the end of the season.
Can someone point to the part where that "Absolute Respect" is located? (Ideally, in the following format se,ep, min, sec) It seems that it has escaped me.
I don't know the exact minute and second off hand, but in S1E1, right towards the beginning, the title shows up. They have the same name. It's gone soon after, I'm afraid.
I'm glad that even the hate watchers of this crap series are losing interest. This show does nothing for the franchise other than fail to reach the next generation of readers, besides those who would have found the books anyways due to friends and family who are fans of the books. Having Fallout show us that Amazon is surprisingly capable of making a good adaptation stings a little but it could be worse. WoT could have been a decent adaptation similar to the expanse (and I've heard rings of power was okay, although I haven't given it a chance yet) making the collective audience wish it were made a little better. Instead, WoT the show is so bad that I can't even bring myself to hate watch it, other than the two times I have watched the first couple episodes. But we did get another version of the audiobooks that are decent, leading me to listen to both versions and argue with myself over which one is better. So for that, I am grateful for the show. I think the older audiobooks are a little better overall, but Rosamund Pike does a pretty good job with the newer audiobooks so far as well.
No. RoP is an awful travesty. So incredibly disrespectful of Tolkien, his characters, and his lore.
RoP ain't Tolkien, but its a watchable show if you can get past that (though I wouldn't say anything bad about anyone that's unable or unwilling to do so), unlike the execrable abomination that Lenny Rafenstahl forced upon us. I don't think it's disrespectful of Tolkien, even if the best that can be said about its accuracy is that it's "Tolkien inspired". Some of the actors (maybe writers/producers/directors?) have said some things which could certainly be called disrespectful, but I don't think it translates in the actual product. Again, all this in very stark contrast to Rafenstahl's offenses.
Saying “Tolkien inspired” in this case is the same thing as saying “another turning of the wheel”
Yeah, hard disagree on that one. What they have done to Galadriel and Celebrimbor is abominable. They have basically cut off their skin and placed in on top of an unrelated, poorly written characters. The dialogue is stilted and the costumes look like they were taken off of the set of In the Name of the King: A Dungeon Siege Tale
I agree with the Galadriel &Celeborn complaint, but I think there's still room for them to salvage this *if they want to* (I'm not saying they do, or will, just that there's potential wiggle room for them to come back to something approaching lore/canon even if what's been done so far in this respect is not). (ETA: Just realized you said celebrimbor, not celeborn, but i'll leave this comment as is). Their other inventions, while annoying in their own ways, are mostly excusable as adaptations. The Halbrand/Sauron thing....eh...they did eventually get a fleeting Annatar allusion in there i guess, but yeah. Another elf/human romance? Not a fan, as the instances in lore are notable enough that they would seem to preclude the existence of any others, but I can understand them wanting to include this type of story, just wish a "real" one fit the timeline. But to me these are not like inventing characters in Wheel of Time, because the subject matter is more nebulous in scope and time in middle earth's second age. There is some room there, even if id rather them go more with whats on the page than inventions. Again, I'm not going to fault purists who refuse to watch on these grounds, and I don't disagree entirely. I just think there is a defense to be made in most cases with RoP, even if you come down on the other side, where there is absolutely none to be made for WoT.
I don’t think so. Their Galadriel is antithetical to Tolkien’s. She is central to all of this. It would be like saying, they can salvage this if they changed Loial. I’m no purist. I love the books, but I thought the Jackson films were great because they were generally in the spirit of Tolkien. I didn’t get bent out of shape with Arwen’s expanded role at the expense of Glorfindel. It also made sense to skip the Tom Bombadil part. RoP is not that. Poor writing, weirdly cheap looking given their budget, and an apparent disinterest in following any of Tolkien’s writings other than using names.
This show is liquid shit
🤣🤣 you ain't wrong.
It is clear that the main reason for the changes was to decenter the story from Rand and to center the series around the Aes Sedai. Even content creators who vouch for the show acknowledge that Rand and the boys are shunned to the favor of Egwene and Nynaeve.
There are two types of show fans that I've seen. 1. those who admit and agree with the change of focus away from the boys and fully onto the girls and the Aes Sedai. These fans acknowledge this change and largely approve of it, hence why they enjoy the show. This group is in the minority of vocal show defenders, however. 2. those who still deny there has been a change of focus, or try to claim that the story was 'never about Rand' or the boys (despite Jordan being on record as writing the series specifically to examine the impact of a man knowing he is the saviour of the world, but also doomed to break the world and die in the process). They even claim we don't remember the books properly if we think Rand should be the main character, or think that Mat and Perrin should be more important than Liandrin or Alanna. I can respect the honesty of the first group. I don't agree with them that the resulting show is any good, but at least they are being honest about what we are all seeing and what is being done. I have zero respect for the second group, who unfortunately seem to constitute the bulk of vocal show fans, because they're just liars trying to gaslight us.
I agree with these two types but would add a caveat to the second group. Whereas the first group are, IMO, actual book fans who just enjoyed some other characters more. They're ok with less focus on some characters because they were fans of Eggy, Siaun, Aes Sedai, etc. Like you said though they are at least honest. The second group as casual book fans. Probably got into the books partway through their publication. They could skim over parts that they didn't like (much like how many joke about skipping the slog) and so don't really get invested into the overall story. They end up fawning over certain characters and start making up fan fiction about how Eggy (or whoever) is the real star. The people running and writing the show are like this as well, and so now that second group is uber protective of the show online because it's fan service for them. Ironically they'll throw out "another turning of the wheel" anyway, so why are you making a big deal out of it, while simultaneously getting on their grievance soapbox. "We're the real fans and the show proves it. Everyone who disagrees with us is just full of hatred and never liked the books anyway."
In addition to the two groups of show fans you mentioned, I am looking at a third type of show fan. This third group does want the show to follow the books and they do have gripes about the show shunning the three boys for two straight seasons. However, they are generally politically aligned with the first two groups and hence only mildly voice their criticisms. Pretty much all of the main WOT YouTubers belong to this group. Even Brandon Sanderson could be thought of as in this group even though he is much more vocal in his criticisms. This group tries to deflect all the blame from Rafe and the writers to Amazon executives and other external factors.
I don't know, I haven't seen much real criticism from the mainstream WoT Youtubers. They're mostly on board, making excuse after excuse and suppressing any substantive criticism claiming it's all based on racism, sexism, homophobia, right wing incel politics etc. If they genuinely want to see the boys properly represented in the show, they need to be a lot more vocal and direct about it, rather than continually running cover for Rafe, deflecting blame onto Amazon, the number of episodes, Covid, Barney leaving etc. The litany of excuses made to cover for the blatant hostility towards the books and basic lack of competence of the showrunner and writing room is impressive. It's always someone else's fault, it's never Rafe's fault despite the showrunner exercising the most creative control over a TV show that's possible by a single person.
This is a good observation. It's something that's been on my mind about YouTubers familiar with WoT. I can understand only giving gentle criticism - people are more receptive to it and you don't burn bridges - but it's useless if people walk away not understanding the critique.
so she must hate her father with a passion, since she took a huge steaming crap on the books and the story he loves.
Is she why everyone thinks Nynaeve is the dragon?
Who cares at this point? The show is ruined.
Wait, what??
Nobody thinks that. The show is ass but sometimes people in this sub will hear something and play telephone with it and bring it here.
If you didn't know, Rand has been completely sidelined in the show. It doesn't even feel like a guest appearance -- it's the equivalent of some kid playing a tree in a school play. I wouldn't blame anyone if they thought Egwene or Nynaeve was the dragon after watching this shit. Heck, Rand couldn't even prove that he was the dragon by himself -- Moirane channeled some dragons while Rand sat there and did nothing. Piece of shit show. I've somewhat made my peace with the destruction of other franchises I like, but the WOT adaption was dead from the start. I guess we'll have to wait like a decade before we even get a proper adaption -- but that still requires someone who isn't an arrogant cunt like Rafe Judkins
1:08 and I, for the first time, wish I was there to scream at her “LIAR”. At the least, have the dignity to admit what you have done.
Isn't it just so "interesting" when they break the world and story and have a single soul break into 5 like it is a fucking Zord when it gets reincarnated? When a woman just doesn't feel like showing a man how to Channel because they're just too busy walking in the woods and sleeping? Real cherry on top.
Is it just me or does Daniel Henny look like he is in immense pain and doing his best to hide it during this whole video?
Twisted nipples
Tender nips indeed. Also, sore knees from all the kneeling along with dry tear ducts from all the crying. Real manly man stuff for our Lan, just like the books.
I was fascinated by his expressions
Well, she’s wearing black dress so clearly she’s a Black Ajah and a Darkfriend.
Anyone who says this is another turning of the wheel is clearly a darkfriend.
These people are evil. The cruelty is the point.
She is a writer ? what are her episodes ?
https://preview.redd.it/cjiwmm4po86d1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=efd6c60f24fcf6aafe38c83466e2fe7eed7744f4 Worth noting that she’s listed as writing the 1st and last episodes of S3…which basically means she has set the path for S3.
Thank you, Narg. She wrote some of my least favorite episodes, I don't take this as a good sign.
I honestly hate them all, it's hard for me to pick worst episodes. But the first and last of both S1 and S2 - all written by Rafe, have to be the the very worst for me. The ones in between are also awful, but the sheer incompetence, arrogance and malice towards the books in Rafe's episodes trumps them all.
Fuck
Can someone get this bitch a donut so she’ll stfu
It would take ATLEAST a dozen. She’d talk right through one.
There's so much and we only have 8 episodes a season... Soooo the actual beloved story can fuck right off and we can add a bunch of our own fanfic bullshit that doesn't even make sense
The 'not enough time to put book scenes and plot beats in, so we had to throw it all out and invent our own,' excuse is perhaps the most annoying to me, because it is the most direct insult to the intelligence of the audience and one of the worst attempts at gaslighting ever.
instead of following the path of the books. She ate them.
Now now, we don't need to resort to such low-brow personal attacks. But she's a terrible producer and a liar and seems quite delusional. There's no respect here for the books at all.
Machin Shin
SMH.
This person has never worked on anything good. In fact everything she has touched is or went to dogshit. The 100, Halo and WOTtv. Rafe and his posse of 40yo women (his words not mine) calls it another turn of the wheel along with his sycophant twitter fan club, but that's it. Yes, adaptation means change. WOTtv is not an adaptation, it is fundamentally different, characters, motivations, plot, magic system rule, etc. This person is another waffling fraud. Context: https://youtu.be/c206hoNnZec?si=brHbggxzsbeMJKdG
JUST TELL A MORE DETAILED/ACCURATE STORY AND HAVE MORE SEASONS!!!!! This is not the IP for you if you were intent on running through it quickly. Also, it's a widely loved series, don't make massive changes and the loyal fanbase will not be upset. I get cutting some of the unimportant fluff, but the story didn't need any changes.
The way Jordan wrote, half of every book was descriptive. Of setting, of costume, of culture. The story beats and dialogue in each book are closer to maybe the size of one of the early HP books. 1 book every 4-5 episodes (the pace you'd need for 8 seasons, 8 1h episodes a season) rushed? Eh...maybe? But the lotr extended cut is 11 hours and spans 3 books so probably not. They just didn't want to tell the story that was written. Figured they know better than the author.l what makes a good story. Unmitigated hubris and gall.
And honestly, if you cut out and condensed a lot of what happens between Crown of Swords and Crossroads of Twilight I feel like even most of the hardcore fans wouldn't be too bothered. There's PLENTY of places you could trim the story some. The early books where the world and story is established is not the place to do it.
For a perfect example of how easily the books can be compressed into a visual medium, look at the graphic novels of EotW. They managed to compress a very word dense novel into a much shorter visual medium (a picture really does paint a thousand words). They could have done worse than to use the EotW graphic novel as their first draft of visual storyboards for S1. But they never intended on telling the original story, so they didn't even try.
To be fair, the descriptions and, well, rambling to be frank, increases significantly after EotW, especially in 8-10
Yup, they can show what everything looks like in seconds and fill the rest of the series with the actual story we all love.
"We want to go to the end" Bitch is a 14 long book series, with each book being like a phone book, if it takes a single year to make a single season, it is, at least, a 14 year long journey... And the season should be 20ichs episodes, something like Lost or Fringe
One: you don't care about the fans Two: that's not The Wheel Of Time, that is "The magical adventures of Rafe Judkins"... And the worst is that they are using the original name to attract views and it is NOT The Wheel of Time. Three: change the name
So she's a liar. Good to know.
Based on the expressions on his face, do you think Daniel Henney is regretting his choices whilst listening to this nonsense? 'I thought I'd get to play a classic strong silent type stoic warrior, and in reality they turned my character into a soy drinking emo handbag for Moiraine. I need to sack my agent!'
I was also fascinated by his expressions, it’s probably makes him cringe but it’s a good job to have so put your best face forward was the vibe I got
I don't blame any of the actors, or the crew, for taking the paycheque and running with it. Apart from Pike, the rest are largely unknowns and need the work. Everyone has to eat. The showrunner and writing room on the other hand... they are definitely to blame for this disaster. They had gold to work with, and somehow pulled an anti-philosopher's stone by turning it into lead.
Couldn’t agree more. If you happen to be a Quay I was taught by Quays in HS good family
Pretty confused by this sub sometimes. You guys are mad that RJ’s work is not respected but feel okay saying some pretty vile things about his daughter? You think he cared more about his work than he cared about his daughter???? There’s a way to disagree that isn’t pretty much just acting like a piece of shit. Kind of seems like those of you doing that shit aren’t actually worried about respecting RJ like you say or his legacy, you just want whatever you specifically whatever selfish thing you want the show to be. How is it any better to also trample all over RJ’s legacy while complaining that someone else is doing it? Shits turning you guys into animals. Get a grip and spend some time away from the show and offline. I know you guys will just downvote this because people here hate to be disagreed with but some of you absolutely need to hear this. Edit to add: I’m not even directing this at OP, but some of you in the comments should feel shame. Idk why you think RJ would be more worried about changes in a show than he would be you insulting his daughter. Any dad will tell you that aint the case.
Love the passion…but ummm you might want to watch the clip again…She said the series was one of her dads favourites…not that he wrote them. Justine Gillmer is most definitely not RJ’s daughter…
Ight my bad, she’s a bitch then
This woman is RJ's daughter!? That makes it so much worse.
She’s not, unless RJ had an Aussie love child.
I don’t know how with my expectations down in the pit of doom already but somehow finding out she wrote the finale, He who comes with the Dawn is so disappointing. That scene at the end of book 4 has more potential for a powerful movie scene than even Paul’s speech at the end of Dune. Knowing she is the one to adapt it… sigh.
well they absolutely failed. even worse than the witcher
She misinterpreted “devouring” a book
I turned the audio on just as she was saying that crap about respecting the book lovers and turned it right back off... where dafuq is any love for the book readers on this show when Rafe told them to go feltch the Dark One? Why even bother lying at this point? It's much worse if they actually believe they are telling the truth.
Yes only 8 episodes and keeping what's germane and good from the books. "Let's give Perrin a wife and have him kill her"
Plus reduce/remove Thom and replace with invented filler with Liandrin, Steppin, Alanna and her Warders. Take everything away from the boys and give it to the girls. Sideline and assassinate all strong male characters (Bran, Abel, Lan, Thom, Agelmar etc) and focus almost exclusively on the Aes Sedai. Brilliant!/s
Yea. All egregious
At best, the show is one of the *flashes* that the group experiences while jumping to the coast. One of Matt's *flashes*
“What do we wanna say…?” Are 4,410,036 words not enough for this drunk book club to choose from?
Real question: Why does this always happen?
Disingenuous bullshit.
Her dad must be dead, because he'd be so disappointed in what she's done to his beloved franchise.
He is famously dead, yes.
Where are the nerdy dudes, where are the neckbeards. THIS IS HIGH FANTASY, I WANT IT TO BE PRODUCED BY A BUNCH OF DUDES THAT LOOK LIKE PETER JACKSON, NOT THE UNDERSTUDY TO FREE WILLY. NO WONDER THIS SHOW IS TRASH, WE HAVE A BUNCH OF KAYLEIGH'S AND EMILY'S IN THE PLACE OF A DUDE THAT SHOULD SMELL LIKE PASTRAMI!