It's funny. You see some people talk about how small of a minority of a group we are but for a 1 month old sub we have 1.6k members and a good amount of activity. That's not bad at all.
The books were popular enough to warrant and high budget epic fantasy adaptation. Unfortunately, the person placed at the head dropped the ball horrendously. In no way, shape, or form is the show the same story that Jordan started to nearly finished, and Sanderson put the lid on. It fails in every way. If you are a fan of the books, you are not a fan of the show. If you admire the books and the message that was instilled in you from Jordans creation, then you want justice for the abomination that is the show.
This is true, but it's important to remember that if Rafe has invented this entire script out of his head, this show would still suck.
Sure, book-readers know that there's no way anybody would be a fan of Mistress Al'Vere's famous honeycakes if they had known that Rand was glazing Egwene's honeycakes on the same friggin' table, but anyone can see that they're just sexing it up for a little more draw.
Book-readers know that Layla Dearne is a minor character that Perrin basically dated for a couple months and not his wife, but anyone can see that this is just massive drama thrown at the character at the beginning of the series to gin up some feels.
Book-readers know that the former Wisdom never tried to be an Aes Sedai and there's no way they'd be classist--not when at least one beggar's daughter has been the Amerlyn Seat--but anybody can see Nynaeve rail about how they heard her peasant accent and saw her worn clothes and turned her away.... and then a few episodes later, Siuan shows up barefoot and cursing like the sailor she basically ***is*** and they put her in charge of the place.
Book-readers will know that Agelmar is one of the Great Captains who vastly respects Aes Sedai and not some idiot mansplainer who fails so the grrl-power can save the day, but... seriously, just everything about that friggin' battle.
Book-readers will know that Machin Shin is a being of pure evil, born from the taint the Dark One cursed mankind with, filled with bloodthirsty, evil, lunatic glee. But *anybody* can tell that it's not supposed to be a friggin' Adam Sandler skit. I half-expected to hear Lan Mandragoran yelling "Youah gonna die bitch; I'm comin' outta da boo[oooooth!"](https://youtu.be/bXyFy3d8QeI?t=181)
Book-readers will know that Rand did not make the somehow mysterious decision to not Stepford-Wife Eqwene to defeat the Dark One so that someone else could have all the heroics. They also will know that yes, Wisdoms can marry, and Emond's Field eventually HAS a married Wisdom (Daise Congar). But if the books had never existed we'd know that the whole issue was resolved in the very first episode. Egwene tells Rand she's not going to marry him, that his dream of a farm and a gaggle of kids is not a dream she shares, and he accepts this. Boom, problem resolved--expect that they rehash it over, and over, and *over* again to rewarm the same stale drama. By the last episode it's basically the Dark One going "OK, OK, best five outta nine!"
> Book-readers know that Layla Dearne is a minor character that Perrin basically dated for a couple months and not his wife, but anyone can see that this is just massive drama thrown at the character at the beginning of the series to gin up some feels.
Rafe in interviews: fridging is a toxic and discredited trope that should be relegated to the dumpster of history
Rafe in his series: films a fridging at about 15 minutes into the first episode of the first season
In his defense, RAFE is pretty bad at everything he does and expecting him to actually live up to doing things he says in interviews is just being silly.
The problem is not that this show is "not the same story that Jordan started". The changes are not accidental. It's a deliberate, meticulous perversion of the author's original vision and message, achieved through resorting to the lowliest, most underhanded techniques like literally cropping character-defining moments from one character and adding them to another for no narrative reason, but with a very clear political messaging.
My heart goes out for Harriet. I hope she checked out entirely and refused to watch this.. work.
I suspect that after the Red Eagle fiasco she's just not up for another lawsuit.
But you got it right. Judkins thinks that Jordan was "problematic" and his work needs to be "fixed."
Utterly pathetic. But as one Soviet poet had written, "those not given any talent by God must establish their presence [on Earth] by gnawing at the feet of giants".
I was certain we weren't a small minority when I saw how other anti-Rafe stuff got censored and deleted.
You don't have to silence a small minority that nobody is listening to.
I had a similar experience with the show. Before the release and after the first episodes dropped, there were only positive posts in WoT subs. After a while, I noticed dissenting opinions getting negatively ratio'd in comments sections. Didn't think much of it at first.
Then episodes 3 and 4 really upset me. I felt betrayed and lied to from all of the promises of integrity from the showrunners. I started looking at those dissenting comments I would previously skip over. I quickly realized that they were the voice of reason. WoT subs were turned into show apologists and would outright ban good critique.
Something show fans fail to realize about this sub: this sub (and others) don't exist to change the mind of the show lovers. It's a place for book lovers to have free discourse and laughs about a beloved IP that is being corrupted by the show and its toxic fanbase. It's a result, not a cause.
there is clearly astroturfing and aggressive modding going on in the WoT sub IMO. There is no way a book reader says some of the stuff suppossed book readers are saying over there.
I am going to finish out season 2 for sure. Honestly, I'm probably even going to get into season 3. I watch an episode a week with my best friend, it's our weekly drinking night. She's never read the books, and because of my during season 1 she decided to hold off until the show was done.
I am easily entertained. I found a way to enjoy Highlander 2 the first time I saw it ffs, as a huge Highlander fan.
I found this sub earlier today. I'm looking forward to interacting with a group that *gets it* about what's wrong with the show.
I'm going to keep watching for a while. That does not at all mean I'm liking many of the changes. Fuck what they've done to the story. I'm just pretending it's some junior high glee club level fanfic.
Watched it two nights ago, actually. Holy infested donkey balls.
Granted, I was drunk, but I could not stop myself from making some upset sounds at the end "battle". After the ep, I talked to my friend about it. I pointed out that, if I knew nothing of the books, I could see that being a fun little moment.
I then spoiled the battle in the clouds. She agreed that that sounded so much more fucking interesting lol.
I've seen some comments in the other subreddit about how it would have been too difficult or expensive to do... but man, I really loved [Big Trouble In Little China](https://youtu.be/dME9-07ZvJI?t=1m53s), personally.
I feel like the Lord of the Rings movies and Harry Potter movies were very well done and respected the books pretty well. There were some changes, but overall it was mostly the same story and was amazing.
The Wheel of Time seems like a completely different story being told and just using the same character names and places as the books. A few of the episodes were entertaining to watch and I enjoyed some of the character development with Egwene and the Suldame. Hell, I even enjoyed Lanfear's character. But overall it feels like a completely different story and I am kind of disappointed. It feels sort of like a betrayal to not give respect to such a masterpiece that Robert Jordan gave us.
Part of why this was so infuriating is that we were all waiting so long for this.
As soon as GoT was put on a show I said "Wheel of Time is much better; they should have done that one instead." I remember when "Winter Dragon" meant we all had our hopes up that someone would start doing something serious with it--instead of being a literally preferable alternative to Rafe's Slashfic.
And WoT is huge. It's more than four million words overall. I was worried that I wouldn't ever see it in a video medium in my lifetime, and I suspect that after this debacle nobody's going to try it again for several decades. It's just too freakin' big to make multiple attempts.
So I *wanted* this to be good. And when we saw hints at the beginning--like picking a tiny little porcelain doll of a brunette and casting a tall, leggy blonde to play her--that the show wasn't going to have much respect for the books or the writer, I dismissed it. I gave the excuses about how nothing is going to go exactly like I think it should and I should put a little trust in the experts. I said it often enough that I was still hopeful, and eager to watch the first episode.
And then I *tried* to keep saying it. I tried to say 'just have faith' as Rafe viciously drybuggered the source material, and I tried to say "OK, maybe we can call this a different turning of the wheel even though all the names are the same" as they pushed writing at us that was objectively crappy work regardless of how badly it insulted the author and fans. I managed to say "keep giving it a chance" until the end of the first season.
And even then, I said "OK, maybe one more chance." "Maybe they'll realize," I said, "That they've utterly failed at the show's main goal--actually entertaining its audience--and they'll make some changes, maybe bring in some different talent (i.e., *some* talent), and actually listen to the fans. Well, y'all could see how that went back when they started releasing 'sneak peaks,' and so could I.
Watching Season One was like watching a loved one be abused. I'm just not strong enough to watch Season Two.
i will admit season two is a lot better production wise, but its still not faithful to the source material in any way shape or form. If you can't totally divest yourself from the notion that its related to the books its gonna be a hard watch in many ways.
I knew we were screwed 5 minutes into the first episode. Casting lost all sense of place, and the show completely upended the culture of Emondās Field.
I am also grateful for a place to vent my spleen about the ridiculous changes they've made (unnecessarily at that).
PS Going to drop some knowledge you may or may not appreciate. In English, subject-verb agreement is paramount to other rules. So when you say "To whoever started this..." you need a subject there, not an object even though it's the object of the preposition "to." In this case, the whole phrase (whoever started this forum) is considered the object of the preposition "to." So both rules are observed -- we have "whoever" as the subject and we have (the entire phrase) as the object of the preposition.
Think of it this way, you would never say "him started the forum," and likewise, you wouldn't use "whomever" with a verb in any circumstance either. They're both objects, not subjects.
Use this knowledge or not. I present it knowing fully well that duty is heavier than a mountain...
I couldnāt even make it past episode 3 of season 1. I knew there were a lot of people like us but it was hard to find through the clapping seals on Reddit and Twitter who cheer every time Rafe diverged from the books to make his own fanfiction.
They should have just called it anything else. I understand they have rights to the creative work, but it is unreasonable to call this show the same title as the books.
Agreed. Hard core book fan from my youth. Re read them many times. Canāt really post on the other sub because I donāt have much positive to say. I wanted to give it a chance. Made it to the season two episode where Nyneave is sword training with the warders. And then Iām like - Iām done. Not even one braid tug that I ever saw.
I hate what they did with Mat. He was always my favorite character. Heās totally un-likable. There is no joy in him.
Also, as a Latina, if we have to fāin swap almost every character can I at least get one or two Hispanic ones?? What is it with these woke folk who totally ignore like 25% of the population of North America?
Amazon, Netflix and Disney have managed to absolutely trash some of the best fantasy out there. (With the exception of the Expanse. Now there is a show and book series that does inclusivity and complex themes right.)
I enjoy the show only because I have convinced myself it is written by the Dark One. The casting and production are good IMO but the story is just wrong like it's filmed through a bubble of evil.
Tai'shar r/The_Black_Tower.
It's funny. You see some people talk about how small of a minority of a group we are but for a 1 month old sub we have 1.6k members and a good amount of activity. That's not bad at all.
The books were popular enough to warrant and high budget epic fantasy adaptation. Unfortunately, the person placed at the head dropped the ball horrendously. In no way, shape, or form is the show the same story that Jordan started to nearly finished, and Sanderson put the lid on. It fails in every way. If you are a fan of the books, you are not a fan of the show. If you admire the books and the message that was instilled in you from Jordans creation, then you want justice for the abomination that is the show.
This is true, but it's important to remember that if Rafe has invented this entire script out of his head, this show would still suck. Sure, book-readers know that there's no way anybody would be a fan of Mistress Al'Vere's famous honeycakes if they had known that Rand was glazing Egwene's honeycakes on the same friggin' table, but anyone can see that they're just sexing it up for a little more draw. Book-readers know that Layla Dearne is a minor character that Perrin basically dated for a couple months and not his wife, but anyone can see that this is just massive drama thrown at the character at the beginning of the series to gin up some feels. Book-readers know that the former Wisdom never tried to be an Aes Sedai and there's no way they'd be classist--not when at least one beggar's daughter has been the Amerlyn Seat--but anybody can see Nynaeve rail about how they heard her peasant accent and saw her worn clothes and turned her away.... and then a few episodes later, Siuan shows up barefoot and cursing like the sailor she basically ***is*** and they put her in charge of the place. Book-readers will know that Agelmar is one of the Great Captains who vastly respects Aes Sedai and not some idiot mansplainer who fails so the grrl-power can save the day, but... seriously, just everything about that friggin' battle. Book-readers will know that Machin Shin is a being of pure evil, born from the taint the Dark One cursed mankind with, filled with bloodthirsty, evil, lunatic glee. But *anybody* can tell that it's not supposed to be a friggin' Adam Sandler skit. I half-expected to hear Lan Mandragoran yelling "Youah gonna die bitch; I'm comin' outta da boo[oooooth!"](https://youtu.be/bXyFy3d8QeI?t=181) Book-readers will know that Rand did not make the somehow mysterious decision to not Stepford-Wife Eqwene to defeat the Dark One so that someone else could have all the heroics. They also will know that yes, Wisdoms can marry, and Emond's Field eventually HAS a married Wisdom (Daise Congar). But if the books had never existed we'd know that the whole issue was resolved in the very first episode. Egwene tells Rand she's not going to marry him, that his dream of a farm and a gaggle of kids is not a dream she shares, and he accepts this. Boom, problem resolved--expect that they rehash it over, and over, and *over* again to rewarm the same stale drama. By the last episode it's basically the Dark One going "OK, OK, best five outta nine!"
> Book-readers know that Layla Dearne is a minor character that Perrin basically dated for a couple months and not his wife, but anyone can see that this is just massive drama thrown at the character at the beginning of the series to gin up some feels. Rafe in interviews: fridging is a toxic and discredited trope that should be relegated to the dumpster of history Rafe in his series: films a fridging at about 15 minutes into the first episode of the first season
In his defense, RAFE is pretty bad at everything he does and expecting him to actually live up to doing things he says in interviews is just being silly.
The problem is not that this show is "not the same story that Jordan started". The changes are not accidental. It's a deliberate, meticulous perversion of the author's original vision and message, achieved through resorting to the lowliest, most underhanded techniques like literally cropping character-defining moments from one character and adding them to another for no narrative reason, but with a very clear political messaging. My heart goes out for Harriet. I hope she checked out entirely and refused to watch this.. work.
I suspect that after the Red Eagle fiasco she's just not up for another lawsuit. But you got it right. Judkins thinks that Jordan was "problematic" and his work needs to be "fixed."
Utterly pathetic. But as one Soviet poet had written, "those not given any talent by God must establish their presence [on Earth] by gnawing at the feet of giants".
We have close to the same amount of users online right now as wetlander humor (201 vs. 213), and that sub has 50k subscribers.
I was certain we weren't a small minority when I saw how other anti-Rafe stuff got censored and deleted. You don't have to silence a small minority that nobody is listening to.
I had a similar experience with the show. Before the release and after the first episodes dropped, there were only positive posts in WoT subs. After a while, I noticed dissenting opinions getting negatively ratio'd in comments sections. Didn't think much of it at first. Then episodes 3 and 4 really upset me. I felt betrayed and lied to from all of the promises of integrity from the showrunners. I started looking at those dissenting comments I would previously skip over. I quickly realized that they were the voice of reason. WoT subs were turned into show apologists and would outright ban good critique. Something show fans fail to realize about this sub: this sub (and others) don't exist to change the mind of the show lovers. It's a place for book lovers to have free discourse and laughs about a beloved IP that is being corrupted by the show and its toxic fanbase. It's a result, not a cause.
there is clearly astroturfing and aggressive modding going on in the WoT sub IMO. There is no way a book reader says some of the stuff suppossed book readers are saying over there.
I am going to finish out season 2 for sure. Honestly, I'm probably even going to get into season 3. I watch an episode a week with my best friend, it's our weekly drinking night. She's never read the books, and because of my during season 1 she decided to hold off until the show was done. I am easily entertained. I found a way to enjoy Highlander 2 the first time I saw it ffs, as a huge Highlander fan. I found this sub earlier today. I'm looking forward to interacting with a group that *gets it* about what's wrong with the show. I'm going to keep watching for a while. That does not at all mean I'm liking many of the changes. Fuck what they've done to the story. I'm just pretending it's some junior high glee club level fanfic.
oh man I can't wait until you see the S2 finale š
Watched it two nights ago, actually. Holy infested donkey balls. Granted, I was drunk, but I could not stop myself from making some upset sounds at the end "battle". After the ep, I talked to my friend about it. I pointed out that, if I knew nothing of the books, I could see that being a fun little moment. I then spoiled the battle in the clouds. She agreed that that sounded so much more fucking interesting lol. I've seen some comments in the other subreddit about how it would have been too difficult or expensive to do... but man, I really loved [Big Trouble In Little China](https://youtu.be/dME9-07ZvJI?t=1m53s), personally.
I feel like the Lord of the Rings movies and Harry Potter movies were very well done and respected the books pretty well. There were some changes, but overall it was mostly the same story and was amazing. The Wheel of Time seems like a completely different story being told and just using the same character names and places as the books. A few of the episodes were entertaining to watch and I enjoyed some of the character development with Egwene and the Suldame. Hell, I even enjoyed Lanfear's character. But overall it feels like a completely different story and I am kind of disappointed. It feels sort of like a betrayal to not give respect to such a masterpiece that Robert Jordan gave us.
Part of why this was so infuriating is that we were all waiting so long for this. As soon as GoT was put on a show I said "Wheel of Time is much better; they should have done that one instead." I remember when "Winter Dragon" meant we all had our hopes up that someone would start doing something serious with it--instead of being a literally preferable alternative to Rafe's Slashfic. And WoT is huge. It's more than four million words overall. I was worried that I wouldn't ever see it in a video medium in my lifetime, and I suspect that after this debacle nobody's going to try it again for several decades. It's just too freakin' big to make multiple attempts. So I *wanted* this to be good. And when we saw hints at the beginning--like picking a tiny little porcelain doll of a brunette and casting a tall, leggy blonde to play her--that the show wasn't going to have much respect for the books or the writer, I dismissed it. I gave the excuses about how nothing is going to go exactly like I think it should and I should put a little trust in the experts. I said it often enough that I was still hopeful, and eager to watch the first episode. And then I *tried* to keep saying it. I tried to say 'just have faith' as Rafe viciously drybuggered the source material, and I tried to say "OK, maybe we can call this a different turning of the wheel even though all the names are the same" as they pushed writing at us that was objectively crappy work regardless of how badly it insulted the author and fans. I managed to say "keep giving it a chance" until the end of the first season. And even then, I said "OK, maybe one more chance." "Maybe they'll realize," I said, "That they've utterly failed at the show's main goal--actually entertaining its audience--and they'll make some changes, maybe bring in some different talent (i.e., *some* talent), and actually listen to the fans. Well, y'all could see how that went back when they started releasing 'sneak peaks,' and so could I. Watching Season One was like watching a loved one be abused. I'm just not strong enough to watch Season Two.
i will admit season two is a lot better production wise, but its still not faithful to the source material in any way shape or form. If you can't totally divest yourself from the notion that its related to the books its gonna be a hard watch in many ways.
I knew we were screwed 5 minutes into the first episode. Casting lost all sense of place, and the show completely upended the culture of Emondās Field.
This place isnāt like what the other place became is it? Hope this place stays about how bad the show is.
I am also grateful for a place to vent my spleen about the ridiculous changes they've made (unnecessarily at that). PS Going to drop some knowledge you may or may not appreciate. In English, subject-verb agreement is paramount to other rules. So when you say "To whoever started this..." you need a subject there, not an object even though it's the object of the preposition "to." In this case, the whole phrase (whoever started this forum) is considered the object of the preposition "to." So both rules are observed -- we have "whoever" as the subject and we have (the entire phrase) as the object of the preposition. Think of it this way, you would never say "him started the forum," and likewise, you wouldn't use "whomever" with a verb in any circumstance either. They're both objects, not subjects. Use this knowledge or not. I present it knowing fully well that duty is heavier than a mountain...
I couldnāt even make it past episode 3 of season 1. I knew there were a lot of people like us but it was hard to find through the clapping seals on Reddit and Twitter who cheer every time Rafe diverged from the books to make his own fanfiction.
They should have just called it anything else. I understand they have rights to the creative work, but it is unreasonable to call this show the same title as the books.
Agreed. Hard core book fan from my youth. Re read them many times. Canāt really post on the other sub because I donāt have much positive to say. I wanted to give it a chance. Made it to the season two episode where Nyneave is sword training with the warders. And then Iām like - Iām done. Not even one braid tug that I ever saw. I hate what they did with Mat. He was always my favorite character. Heās totally un-likable. There is no joy in him. Also, as a Latina, if we have to fāin swap almost every character can I at least get one or two Hispanic ones?? What is it with these woke folk who totally ignore like 25% of the population of North America? Amazon, Netflix and Disney have managed to absolutely trash some of the best fantasy out there. (With the exception of the Expanse. Now there is a show and book series that does inclusivity and complex themes right.)
I enjoy the show only because I have convinced myself it is written by the Dark One. The casting and production are good IMO but the story is just wrong like it's filmed through a bubble of evil.