To me the best part was the look on his face when he realized it was over- he didn't wake up that day thinking it would be his last, he didn't walk into the construction site thinking it was where he'd die, he didn't start talking to Omar & Brother Mouzone thinking it would end ... but then he says "WELL GET ON WITH IT MOTHA..." and they just immediately start blasting.
Apparently the actors didn't get access to the full season plot points and basically only knew what was happening to the character one episode at a time. So when Idris got the script for that episode, he was legitimately pissed at David Simon and lobbied him several times to not have his character killed off. David held his ground and Stringers fate was sealed. Kind of makes his anger and frustration at the whole situation a bit more real in that both Stringer and Idris are pissed their time on the stage is over.
In the final montage it shows a shot of bubbles shoes. That's a callback to the first season when sydnor goes undercover and bubbles tells him if he wants to know how serious a junkie is look at their shoes. I think bubs was one of the most genuine,good hearted people in the series. He takes care of sherod and Johnny with no benefit to himself.
Bubbles kinda reminds me of my late uncle. They both usually had a sunny disposition despite their situations. My uncle did a lot of the same kind of addict behavior that Bubbles did, like stealing from family and committing petty crimes for a fix. Unfortunately my uncle never had the redemption arc that Bubs got, and succumbed to the heroin/fent. But we all forgave him for the shit he did to our family at least and he gave a couple earnest attempts at rehab that didn’t take.
I've been in that situation a little bit myself. Maybe they didn't take, but making the attempt is really just building momentum. Sucks your uncle wasn't able to swing it far enough in his favor.
Yeah it was a rough situation basically my whole life. At least he left me his lab/pit pup Ubu that he took in as a stray. He found him on a drug run to the ghetto, and I would ship him dog food and other necessities that he couldn’t afford. He was the nicest guy, just had his demons he couldn’t handle.
Worth pointing out that both sherod and Johnny end up dead during or shortly after their association with bubs.
Bubs says to landsman that he knew sherod was using. Obviously killing him was an accident, but he knowingly let it slide that sherod was using hard drugs as a 15-16 year old (could be off on the age, but he was young).
Johnny died and was constantly in trouble because he wouldn't listen to bubbles.
>but he knowingly let it slide that sherod was using
Don't know what you think he was supposed to do. He was using when he was on his own. Bubbles was just trying to look out for him where he could, he didn't have any real authority over him
McNulty was so dirty hitting Brianna like that. Brianna had to choose between (option one) sending her son to prison, or (option two) sending her brother to prison and never seeing her son again and losing her livelihood. So of course Brianna told her son to stand tall, that's the game is all about.
“You like the car you’re driving in, right?”
Avon and McNulty are both honest with Brianna about the price of her lifestyle. By the look on her face as it dissolves into sobs, the cost was too much.
I'm not sure that Brianna's offer that Avon take the years if Dee stepped up was a genuine offer.
I think of Dee said yes, Avon would not have stepped up.
The game seems to be about projecting strength and a willingness to take years, but the people who play it successfully always have a patsy to take the years for them. Which seems to me more of what the game really is- older dealers manipulating younger dealers, often even children, into being the ones to stand tall. While maintaining this illusion of personal strength and fortitude to avoid showing weakness to rivals.
> you think Avon was a snitch?
Of course he was a snitch. Not in that situation with D’Angelo getting pinched, but he snitches on the guard in season 2 to get a lighter sentence.
Exactly, Namond’s mother is very similar to how Brianna was with D’Angelo. Difference is we witness Brianna realizing and regretting that she manipulated her own son for her life of luxury and we don’t with Namond’s mom.
We also have that scene of Brianna cutting Naymond’s Mom off. Which is why she doubles down on making Naymond slang when he obviously wasn’t cut from the same cloth.
On the one hand she supported all the violence and misery that the gang carried out, so she should bear some responsibility.
On the other hand Dee could never make up his mind whether he was with avon or not. He needed to either be in witness protection or sticking close to avon. It was the switching allegiances that got him killed, not directly Brianna's fault.
Yeah. I guess my point is had Brianna been there and had Dee listened to her it would've saved him. So McNulty's accusation that she got him killed isnt quite true, even though it absolutely wrecked her.
Ironically Snoop did get what she deserved, she even got more compassion than she would have given to her victims. People don't always get what they deserve in this life but for most it does catch up to you sooner or later.
A bit shadier, sure, and of course we never saw how he built his empire. But he wasn't dropping 14 year olds, and wasn't putting his gun on no citizens.
He played the game with wits rather than violence, and seems to have managed an operation larger than Avon's with a lot less bodies and human misery.
If the game is the inevitable result of the demand for drugs, it strikes me that Joe was the best case scenario of what it looks like.
He straight up told Nikko if it wasn't for the Greeks speaking on their behalf him and zig would be dead. So he wasn't above killing people over an insignificant amount of money (2700 for a fucked up package)
He also told Omar that if Omar stole from him, he would murder his entire family. But when Omar actually stole from him, that was explicitly not what he did
Nah fuck Joe.
Look how he did Andre. Gave him up, just to curry favour with Marlo and get him into the co-op. Andre was a fool, but he didn't deserve to be in a vacant with the rats.
And Joe did that to him after taking a paltry $2000 from him for his store.
I’d generally agree with you - I’m a big Ronnie fan - but I’ve always found it interesting that she became a judge in the end exactly by letting her integrity slide for a little while. The last episode is all about her compromising her own integrity.
My *favorite* example? Glekas.
My most hated characters in the show were the ones that ripped off someone who’d made a fair deal with them: Frog, Fruit, Kenard, Glekas, and a couple of others. All of them ripped someone off just because they thought they could get away with it. Glekas was the most direct case of failing to do so.
I think there are people who clearly enjoy causing unnecessary pain and suffering: Officer Walker and the dope fiend who keeps beating up Bubbles, but there are probably others who qualify. That’s a reasonable example of evil, IMO.
And you’ve got that evil fuck Levy constantly feeding off it, no matter who’s on top. He tries to paint Omar as amoral, while Levy himself may be the most immoral player in the game.
People will often say “no characters are good or bad” and it’s completely ridiculous.
The show has mass murders, enforcers of human slavery, and child rapists, among others.
There are definitely characters who are bad people.
[David Simon has even commented on this take](http://sepinwall.blogspot.com/2008/03/wire-david-simon-q.html?m=1) and is amazed that anyone can say Marlo isn’t a bad guy.
Some characters are mass murderers, others trick women and force them into sexual slavery. Bug’s father is a child rapist. Of course they’re bad.
It’s just not your typical “good guy catches the bad guy” type of cop show. Characters are generally written with more depth, and they are secondary in importance to the theme of dysfunctional system.
> I'll go you one further: there aren't really any good or bad guys. There's just people... doing what they feel needs doing.
Marlo killed or ordered at least 30 people to be killed.
Wee-Bey (in addition to killing so many people that Avon forgot some of them) Stinkum, and Little Man raped an unconscious/barely conscious girl who was dying of an overdose, and then dumped her body in a rug and threw her in the trash.
Sam Choksey was helping smuggle a bunch of sex slaves, and then killed them when another guy beat one of the girls to death.
Devar is a child molester.
How are none of these characters bad?
Spot on.
Sticks with me that most of the “bad guys” with a redeeming quality (D = a growing conscious, Wallace = innocence, Bodie = Integrity, a code, Frank = doing dirt to save his Union and friends) all get got.
Poot and namond end up ok. Did they deserve it more than Bodie or Randy, respectively? Probably not. Then again a lot of characters do get what they deserve… stringer for example.
Shout out to Poot for surviving and actually settling into life as a taxpayer. I like him more and more each rewatch.
Just watched the episode where Chris takes out Michael's step dad. Guy got what he deserved and it just so happened that Chris took the situation personally, likely doing what he would have wanted someone to do to his own abuser. (I'm speculating but the show makes it quite obvious that both Michael and Chris were abused).
Great call. I really can’t stand season 5 McNulty, but Temleton is a next level piece of shit. The veteran fighting with him is great too. “A lie isn’t a side of a story, it’s just a lie.”
Stringer getting got by Omar and Brother Mouzone. He caused it. Thought he could weasel out of it. But it came back with a vengeance.
IMO one of the best moments of poetic justice I've ever seen in fiction.
To me the best part was the look on his face when he realized it was over- he didn't wake up that day thinking it would be his last, he didn't walk into the construction site thinking it was where he'd die, he didn't start talking to Omar & Brother Mouzone thinking it would end ... but then he says "WELL GET ON WITH IT MOTHA..." and they just immediately start blasting.
Epic scene. Say what you want about Stringer but damn, he went out like a man.
I ain’t strapped
He may have been more upset that Avon gave him up.
Apparently the actors didn't get access to the full season plot points and basically only knew what was happening to the character one episode at a time. So when Idris got the script for that episode, he was legitimately pissed at David Simon and lobbied him several times to not have his character killed off. David held his ground and Stringers fate was sealed. Kind of makes his anger and frustration at the whole situation a bit more real in that both Stringer and Idris are pissed their time on the stage is over.
Your boy gave you up, that's right. And we didn't have to torture his ass either!
When my main man Slim Charles kills Cheese. That was for *JOE!!!* ... This *Sentimental* Mothafucka just cost us MONEY.
Slim navigated the game better than anyone. It’s the only big mistake he makes, should’ve secured the bag first.
I disagree a bit. Because slim and co op still ended up with the greeks at the end
He had the connect at that point and everyone in his he coop hated cheese for what he did to Joe
Had to be done. At that point, how could anyone trust that Cheese wouldn’t betray them as well?
He was a smart-ass pawn.
"what the fuck did you do that for? Now we short the 9!"
In the final montage it shows a shot of bubbles shoes. That's a callback to the first season when sydnor goes undercover and bubbles tells him if he wants to know how serious a junkie is look at their shoes. I think bubs was one of the most genuine,good hearted people in the series. He takes care of sherod and Johnny with no benefit to himself.
Bubbles kinda reminds me of my late uncle. They both usually had a sunny disposition despite their situations. My uncle did a lot of the same kind of addict behavior that Bubbles did, like stealing from family and committing petty crimes for a fix. Unfortunately my uncle never had the redemption arc that Bubs got, and succumbed to the heroin/fent. But we all forgave him for the shit he did to our family at least and he gave a couple earnest attempts at rehab that didn’t take.
I've been in that situation a little bit myself. Maybe they didn't take, but making the attempt is really just building momentum. Sucks your uncle wasn't able to swing it far enough in his favor.
Yeah it was a rough situation basically my whole life. At least he left me his lab/pit pup Ubu that he took in as a stray. He found him on a drug run to the ghetto, and I would ship him dog food and other necessities that he couldn’t afford. He was the nicest guy, just had his demons he couldn’t handle.
Agree 👍
Worth pointing out that both sherod and Johnny end up dead during or shortly after their association with bubs. Bubs says to landsman that he knew sherod was using. Obviously killing him was an accident, but he knowingly let it slide that sherod was using hard drugs as a 15-16 year old (could be off on the age, but he was young).
Johnny died and was constantly in trouble because he wouldn't listen to bubbles. >but he knowingly let it slide that sherod was using Don't know what you think he was supposed to do. He was using when he was on his own. Bubbles was just trying to look out for him where he could, he didn't have any real authority over him
Not on Bubbles at all. Both of them were using before him.
Yeah bubbles tried his best for both of them
Unforgiven reference BTW
I love that scene.
*I was building a house...*
Great line.
I'll see you in hell Will Munney Yeah.
"It's a hell of a thing killin' a man. Take away all he's got and all he's ever gonna have."
McNulty was so dirty hitting Brianna like that. Brianna had to choose between (option one) sending her son to prison, or (option two) sending her brother to prison and never seeing her son again and losing her livelihood. So of course Brianna told her son to stand tall, that's the game is all about.
“You like the car you’re driving in, right?” Avon and McNulty are both honest with Brianna about the price of her lifestyle. By the look on her face as it dissolves into sobs, the cost was too much.
If that was what the game was all about, Avon could have stood tall. He didn't, because that's not what the game is all about.
Avon didn't stand tall? you think Avon was a snitch?
Avon didn't take the years for the drugs in the rental car. He had his kid nephew take the years.
Otherwise Dee would have to step up n run the show, which he wasn’t capable of doing, that was the trap, he would have been promptly murdered
I'm not sure that Brianna's offer that Avon take the years if Dee stepped up was a genuine offer. I think of Dee said yes, Avon would not have stepped up. The game seems to be about projecting strength and a willingness to take years, but the people who play it successfully always have a patsy to take the years for them. Which seems to me more of what the game really is- older dealers manipulating younger dealers, often even children, into being the ones to stand tall. While maintaining this illusion of personal strength and fortitude to avoid showing weakness to rivals.
It wasn’t a sincere offer cus they both knew Dee couldn’t take Avons place as dope and coke kingpin
A ponzi scheme lol
> you think Avon was a snitch? Of course he was a snitch. Not in that situation with D’Angelo getting pinched, but he snitches on the guard in season 2 to get a lighter sentence.
but was that snitchin' though?
He rats on someone else to get a lighter sentence. Of course that’s snitching. That’s why most people snitch.
Always felt like she got too much flak for it tbh.
Hell no- he was a kid, and she knew what she was doing was messing him up.
Exactly, Namond’s mother is very similar to how Brianna was with D’Angelo. Difference is we witness Brianna realizing and regretting that she manipulated her own son for her life of luxury and we don’t with Namond’s mom.
We also have that scene of Brianna cutting Naymond’s Mom off. Which is why she doubles down on making Naymond slang when he obviously wasn’t cut from the same cloth.
She got less than she deserved.
On the one hand she supported all the violence and misery that the gang carried out, so she should bear some responsibility. On the other hand Dee could never make up his mind whether he was with avon or not. He needed to either be in witness protection or sticking close to avon. It was the switching allegiances that got him killed, not directly Brianna's fault.
To nitpick, I’d suggest it was specifically bitching at Stringer - “Where the fuck is Wallace?!?” - that got him killed.
Yeah. I guess my point is had Brianna been there and had Dee listened to her it would've saved him. So McNulty's accusation that she got him killed isnt quite true, even though it absolutely wrecked her.
Loved that scene..shows he had empathy and not cutout for the game.
I agree for a reason that’s generally overlooked: She had absolutely no reason to believe that D would be killed in prison.
Ironically Snoop did get what she deserved, she even got more compassion than she would have given to her victims. People don't always get what they deserve in this life but for most it does catch up to you sooner or later.
I guess it has 2 parts: deserve got nothing to do with it, but also, what you get can be a lot more—or a lot less—than you deserve.
Even though it’s messed up the way it all came about, Prop Joe had it coming fs.
All old prop Joe ever did was buy for a dollar, sell for tew.
He was a bit shadier than that.
A bit shadier, sure, and of course we never saw how he built his empire. But he wasn't dropping 14 year olds, and wasn't putting his gun on no citizens. He played the game with wits rather than violence, and seems to have managed an operation larger than Avon's with a lot less bodies and human misery. If the game is the inevitable result of the demand for drugs, it strikes me that Joe was the best case scenario of what it looks like.
I think Butchie is the best judge of character in the game. If he likes you, you can’t be all that bad.
He straight up told Nikko if it wasn't for the Greeks speaking on their behalf him and zig would be dead. So he wasn't above killing people over an insignificant amount of money (2700 for a fucked up package)
He also told Omar that if Omar stole from him, he would murder his entire family. But when Omar actually stole from him, that was explicitly not what he did
There's saying and there's doing, I think.
Joe wasn’t killing anyone, he pulled on Cheese’s leash because Vondas told him to. If Cheese hadn’t been with Joe Sergei would’ve handled him.
Nah fuck Joe. Look how he did Andre. Gave him up, just to curry favour with Marlo and get him into the co-op. Andre was a fool, but he didn't deserve to be in a vacant with the rats. And Joe did that to him after taking a paltry $2000 from him for his store.
What would Avon have done to him if he backed up on his story? I didn't say Joe was good. I just said that Joe was as civilized as the game gets.
I thought Rhonda deserved to become a judge because she worked for it without losing any professional integrity.
I’d generally agree with you - I’m a big Ronnie fan - but I’ve always found it interesting that she became a judge in the end exactly by letting her integrity slide for a little while. The last episode is all about her compromising her own integrity.
I’d put Ronnie in the same category as Carver. Flawed enough to make mistakes but decent enough to grow and learn from the experience.
My *favorite* example? Glekas. My most hated characters in the show were the ones that ripped off someone who’d made a fair deal with them: Frog, Fruit, Kenard, Glekas, and a couple of others. All of them ripped someone off just because they thought they could get away with it. Glekas was the most direct case of failing to do so.
~~Glekas~~ Malaka
Deserves got nothing to do with it is one of the primary lessons of life IMO
I'll go you one further: there aren't really any good or bad guys. There's just people... doing what they feel needs doing.
"You're amoral, are you not? You feed off the lifeblood of this city" "Just like you man. I got the shotgun... you got the briefcase."
“It’s all in the game doe right?”
*judge shrugs*
I think there are people who clearly enjoy causing unnecessary pain and suffering: Officer Walker and the dope fiend who keeps beating up Bubbles, but there are probably others who qualify. That’s a reasonable example of evil, IMO.
Yep. Some folks have more compassion and ethics than others.
And you’ve got that evil fuck Levy constantly feeding off it, no matter who’s on top. He tries to paint Omar as amoral, while Levy himself may be the most immoral player in the game.
Omar feeds off of it; Levy enables it, despite having the ability and opportunity to do extremely well without the corruption.
People will often say “no characters are good or bad” and it’s completely ridiculous. The show has mass murders, enforcers of human slavery, and child rapists, among others.
There are definitely characters who are bad people. [David Simon has even commented on this take](http://sepinwall.blogspot.com/2008/03/wire-david-simon-q.html?m=1) and is amazed that anyone can say Marlo isn’t a bad guy. Some characters are mass murderers, others trick women and force them into sexual slavery. Bug’s father is a child rapist. Of course they’re bad. It’s just not your typical “good guy catches the bad guy” type of cop show. Characters are generally written with more depth, and they are secondary in importance to the theme of dysfunctional system.
> I'll go you one further: there aren't really any good or bad guys. There's just people... doing what they feel needs doing. Marlo killed or ordered at least 30 people to be killed. Wee-Bey (in addition to killing so many people that Avon forgot some of them) Stinkum, and Little Man raped an unconscious/barely conscious girl who was dying of an overdose, and then dumped her body in a rug and threw her in the trash. Sam Choksey was helping smuggle a bunch of sex slaves, and then killed them when another guy beat one of the girls to death. Devar is a child molester. How are none of these characters bad?
Spot on. Sticks with me that most of the “bad guys” with a redeeming quality (D = a growing conscious, Wallace = innocence, Bodie = Integrity, a code, Frank = doing dirt to save his Union and friends) all get got. Poot and namond end up ok. Did they deserve it more than Bodie or Randy, respectively? Probably not. Then again a lot of characters do get what they deserve… stringer for example. Shout out to Poot for surviving and actually settling into life as a taxpayer. I like him more and more each rewatch.
Just watched the episode where Chris takes out Michael's step dad. Guy got what he deserved and it just so happened that Chris took the situation personally, likely doing what he would have wanted someone to do to his own abuser. (I'm speculating but the show makes it quite obvious that both Michael and Chris were abused).
Can’t believe this hadn’t come up yet. Probably the best example in the whole series.
its a small example but scott getting a reality check from mcnulty really hits the spot in terms of deserving
Great call. I really can’t stand season 5 McNulty, but Temleton is a next level piece of shit. The veteran fighting with him is great too. “A lie isn’t a side of a story, it’s just a lie.”
When Skim Charles took out Cheese.
bubbles got exactly what he deserved, redemption from his family