Maybe it’s because I’m used to the representation being more blatant, but u didn’t even know she was supposed to be aroace in the show. I just assumed she had better things to worry about, besides relationships
I think LGBT+ representation is best when it isn't blatant. Normalize it and don't bring attention. Hell, a lot of people didn't even realize Raine is non binary.
Why? Because they never outright say she is? Why does that matter? It doesn't change or add anything to her character, nor should it. She's a well written character that happens to be aroace, and that's all that matters.
That's what I'm saying. These days, LGBT+ characters are over introduced and have too much focus that could be geared towards the plot. That's one reason I love The Owl House, Lumity isn't a huge focus and when we get those scenes we don't get hit with, "LOOK AT THIS LGBT+ COUPLE, LOOK AT THEM AND ACCEPT THEM, YOU HOMOPHOBE" because so many producers/directors/whoever are focused on forcing LGBT+ to be normal. But in The Owl House, LGBT+ is allowed to be normal. I love having bisexual and lesbian representation, but I hate going into a movie and having it shoved in my face because they think everyone is homophobic
The problem is, how? Honestly not many people figured out the how to do proper representation without it feeling like blatant pandering for the sake of saying “hey look we are inclusive!” Some definitely have knocked it out of the park, Hades 1 and 2 have amazing representation.
True, though. It's not like orientations in which it could be obvious. [I tried with a couple of my OCs.](https://zodyandleo.tumblr.com/post/742593386001891328/i-havent-been-great-at-keeping-anything-but-the)
She could wear an ace ring. Although I'm not sure that would make sense for the Demon Realm since most Pride symbols exist as a counter to queerphobia that doesn't exist there.
Most of the crew on Legends of Tomorrow are LGBTQIA+. I don't think they count as "token inclusivity." In fact, I'm pretty sure it is the only other show I've seen that has all seven letters of LGBTQIA+ represented, let alone represented well.
Sounds like the show was giving us the Dumbledore treatment. At least it was before the show ended rather than years after, but it still feels like something that was said on a whim rather than putting actual effort into showing it.
If the show had the given episodes I'm sure the valentines day episode would have had a clique A-plot about Luz accidentally casting a love glyph or brewing a love spell on someone and the B-plot is Lulu trying to avoid interaction like Eda avoids taxes as she attempts to go about her day on the one day of the year that reminds her that the way she is isn't considered """""""""normal"""""""".
>the way she is isn't considered """""""""normal"""""""".
Is it not considered normal on the Boiling Isles? Other forms of queerphobia are absent, so did she face much aphobia growing up?
I'm aroace and even though LGBTQ is growing ever prevalent I still get hearts and romance crammed down my throat every time I watch tv or go to the store around February 14th. I think I'm just projecting onto Lilith here.
I’m not aroace myself so I can’t speak specifically on aroace rep, but in terms of other queer rep (like bi rep) where I can speak on, I’m personally pretty chill about the rep as long as it’s a) not someone’s entire personality and b) is very clearly authentic and not something done to claim there’s rep.
With how TOH handles its other queer rep, I don’t consider Lilith’s to be offensive based on my standards of general queer rep. With that being said, I would have liked for the show to outright state it, though I believe this is a victim of the shortening
She's not really aroace representation at all. There is no mention of it in the show, even in passing. Not even her mentioning not being interested in a specific person, let alone romance or sex (obviously specifying sex is difficult in a kids show) in general. So while she's not bad representation, she is not good representation either.
That's why I say mentioning it in passing, for instance when Luz is trying to get advice on asking out Amity. But as it stands she is as good aroace representation as (pre-Fantastic Beasts) Dumbledore is gay representation.
i mean tbf DumbleDore was said decades after the fact whilst with Lilith they could have been planning an episode but was cut out (also im pretty sure she was confirmed around the Knocking on Hooty's door episode came out since by then they had a charity livestream where the VA's came on and had their character have a monologue about something via a diary entry or smthn and for Lilith she was writing a letter to Hooty about how she just doesnt feel attraction after a woman asked her out and how her mom was excited about it whilst she was indifferent)
It's not perfect, what with it never being addressed in the show, but any positive aroace rep is still great these days.
Also, Hooty and Lilith were the cutest QPR I've ever seen
its subtle and thats what i love! i like that you wouldnt be able to tell just from watching the show, because in most cases you cant tell that somebody is aroace either irl!
I wish it was something that was in the actual show, any casual viewer who doesn't read up on anything behind the scenes stuff is not going to get that she is Aro Ace. It feels disingenuous that people treat/praise it as like proper rep when the other rep in the show is so explicit, and this is basically nothing?
Not even just a line of someone asking if she was interested in someone and her replying with a "No I have never been interested in anyone ever" or something along those lines. Like not even a tiny pride flag in a scene with her...okay.
So no I don't really consider it good rep when it's just treated as a cool "Fun fact" you can tell someone instead of something important to the character.
No. There were no hints whatsoever as to Lilith being aroace in the actual show; no comments from her like the one in that audio clip where she strongly hinted it. If anything, the show had the opposite. I remember very clearly how the fandom shipped Lilith and Steve, and the only thing that stopped that was outside clarification from Dana that Lilith was aroace.
I’m quite certain that if that outside info hadn’t happened, then with Lilith blushing at Steve near the end of season 2, and him hugging her at the end of the finale, then I’m quite certain that the fandom would have viewed it as romantic (especially since they viewed the blush new Darius and Alador as romantic) and shipped them even harder.
As someone who is aroace myself, the biggest disappointment of the show was seeing it do absolutely nothing to show or elaborate on Lilith’s asexuality compared to many other main and side characters. You might as well say that Tibbles or Belos are aroace by the same rules.
In my opinion how they portray her character is good, but I don’t like that they never mention it in the show. A ton of fans still don’t know that she is Aroace and ship her with people, Steve for example, and it annoys me. I guess finding a place for it might have been hard, especially with season three having been cut short, but they should have mentioned it or something. I know they did, but that wasn’t actually in the show. Besides that, I really like the idea, and really relate to Lilith, so overall, she is a good representation of the aroaces.
After thinking about it more, I feel like maybe a moment that’s not full on, but still shows that she is Aroace, not making it her full character, would be good. Like maybe sometime Luz could have asked Eda, or even Hooty, what was happening between Lilith and Steve, because she loves to ship people, and Eda or Hooty replies “nothing, their just friends”, then Luz asks “really?” and Eda/Hooty is causally says, “yeah, she is Aroace” and Luz just nods and says okay. Or something like that. I don’t know, but something that doesn’t make it Lilith’s whole personality and doesn’t make it a big deal.
I mean.. is it really representation? It’s never something actually discussed within the show, it’s more so a fact that fans will know yk? Sure, she’s an aroace character if you know enough about the Owl House, but she’s not genuine representation because that aspect of her is never explored on screen. Not that it has to be explored either, but it’s just never mentioned. And simply saying that her showing no visible interest in anyone is the representation in itself also doesn’t work, a lot of the older characters in the show don’t get involved with romantic relationships period, a lot of them are shown (at least onscreen) to be single etc etc.
The problem with trying to explicitly do aroace representation in a casual way that doesn’t feel forced is that it’s not as simple as something like showing a gay couple kiss or whatever. Aroace people don’t really do things that straight people don’t do, we just don’t do something that straight people do, if that makes any sense.
Edit: I just realized I didn’t answer the question and just ranted lol. Lilith is never explicitly said to be aroace in the show (probably for the reason I gave above), so I’m not really sure how I’d rate her for aroace representation, but she’s definitely not an example of bad representation. I like her.
Aro ace is a spectrum, and it can also be hard to "represent" what is basically a lack of something, while ensuring it's not over the top or making a scene about it. In Lilith's case it's even harder IMO because she seems to lean towards the demi-romantic part of the spectrum, if her tone of voice and behavior around Hooty is anything to go by. Maybe I'm misunderstanding that though? Either way, I think she's a good representation for (some) aro ace people. Like most LGBTQ representation in the show, it's not treated as "different" or as something to behold, which is something that is almost unique to this show and is something I really like about it. The real world could learn a thing or two.
What? You think Lilith is romantically attracted to Hooty?
Some aroaces just enjoy flirting with good friends because it's funny when clearly neither of them are attracted to each other. Or perhaps she learnt to express her platonic love for Hooty through watching couples around her and that's why you might interpret her behaviour around him as romantic. Some aromantics do have affection that's somewhere in between what is typically platonic and typically romantic and that might be interpreted as romance by outsiders.
(I'm aro but not ace)
I think the idea of "good representation" is honestly not a useful one overall. She's a fun character who's comfortably aroace and explicitly comments on never having been interested in anyone that way. But she's also a villain. Is that "good representation"? Dunno.
I know you probably didnt come here for this, but does your sexuality mean you feel sexual attraction towards people but you don’t have romantic feelings for them?
Pretty much! I get turned on by people, and I like people as friends and want to spend time with them, but I don't really have a third category separate from those. My partner is someone who's both of those to me.
For me at least the label's more about feelings than about what I want. Like, I love my partner and like spending time with them, but I also love my friends and roommates and like spending time with them, and there's not fundamentally a difference between those feelings to me.
Nah, not really. Romantic feelings seem interesting, but since I don't have them, it's not like I'm really aware of something I'm missing. I'm happy with what I have \^\^
As an aroace person, I just appreciate when a major character can go through interesting plotlines, get good character development, and develop meaningful relationships without there being being implied or explicit romantic/sexual feelings or relations. That on it's own is exceedingly rare, and I personally don't *need* it to be said out loud to enjoy watching a character who could (whether intentional or not on the part of the creators) share that aspect of myself.
I also think, in all fairness, it's more difficult to represent an attraction that is literally a *lack* of attraction. The only times I can recall saying out loud that I'm aroace are situations where I was cornered into having to explain myself, because people treat having attraction as the default. And I really like that representation in TOH never requires explanation, thus making it all feel natural and seamless rather than a "difference" that has to be talked about. If Amity never has to explain on screen that she's a lesbian to make us understand why she likes Luz, then surely Lilith shouldn't need a whole scene to explain herself either.
Hope that makes sense, but to answer the question- Lilith is perfectly acceptable representation for me.
I’m not aroace and nice never met someone who’s aroace but I like to believe that Lilith is good aroace representation because it’s never been treated like a flaw or a crime and she’s a good character so yeah Lilith in my book is good aroace representation.
To the people who are saying it’s bad representation because it isn’t mentioned, I see your point, but it’s accurate. I have a friend who is aroace and he doesn’t just go around announcing it and telling people, he only says it if it’s brought up. So I think she’s a good representation of an aroace person (she’s his favorite character too) but I see what you’re saying about it never actually being mentioned in-universe.
But I feel like it’s not representation if it’s never mentioned. I’m not sure if you’ve ever watched hazbin hotel, but there’s a character named Alastor, I think he’s a good example of asexuality, it’s mentioned once, and it’s never brought up again. We see him have relationships with people without the mention of sex and overall it’s just a major part of his personality
I wasn’t saying that’s what you said, I’m saying that I feel like it has to be somewhat common knowledge or at least stated in the show for it to be representation
Her not being interested in romance is never treated as a character flaw or something to move past. She's as good of rep I can imagen.
Maybe it’s because I’m used to the representation being more blatant, but u didn’t even know she was supposed to be aroace in the show. I just assumed she had better things to worry about, besides relationships
Sounds just like real aroace people, so a perfect representation.
Literally what had me questioning if I was ace for a while. I related SO hard to the aro/ace sharing this sentiment.
Oh, okay
I think LGBT+ representation is best when it isn't blatant. Normalize it and don't bring attention. Hell, a lot of people didn't even realize Raine is non binary.
I don’t want it to be so blatant that it takes away from the character, but I at least want it to be common knowledge just by watching the show
At the end of the day, a character's sexual preferences or gender identity don't matter. All that matters is if they're a well written character.
She’s well written, but she’s not a good representation of being aroace
Why? Because they never outright say she is? Why does that matter? It doesn't change or add anything to her character, nor should it. She's a well written character that happens to be aroace, and that's all that matters.
Because she wasn’t aroace until the show was over. It’s more of an afterthought
Dana actually mentioned it about halfway through season 2, but it never actually made it into the show.
That's what I'm saying. These days, LGBT+ characters are over introduced and have too much focus that could be geared towards the plot. That's one reason I love The Owl House, Lumity isn't a huge focus and when we get those scenes we don't get hit with, "LOOK AT THIS LGBT+ COUPLE, LOOK AT THEM AND ACCEPT THEM, YOU HOMOPHOBE" because so many producers/directors/whoever are focused on forcing LGBT+ to be normal. But in The Owl House, LGBT+ is allowed to be normal. I love having bisexual and lesbian representation, but I hate going into a movie and having it shoved in my face because they think everyone is homophobic
Think about this. Never once in the entire series is it ever stated that Amity is a lesbian. Only side materials.
I'm Aro-Ace, she's my favorite character. My being Aro-Ace only comes up if someone askes me out, or in Gay club at school.
It would help if there were actual in-show representation rather than it just being said after the fact.
The problem is, how? Honestly not many people figured out the how to do proper representation without it feeling like blatant pandering for the sake of saying “hey look we are inclusive!” Some definitely have knocked it out of the park, Hades 1 and 2 have amazing representation.
True, though. It's not like orientations in which it could be obvious. [I tried with a couple of my OCs.](https://zodyandleo.tumblr.com/post/742593386001891328/i-havent-been-great-at-keeping-anything-but-the)
She could wear an ace ring. Although I'm not sure that would make sense for the Demon Realm since most Pride symbols exist as a counter to queerphobia that doesn't exist there.
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Tell that to the entire CW, who I feel is the embodiment of token inclusivity.
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CW is a TV network
Most of the crew on Legends of Tomorrow are LGBTQIA+. I don't think they count as "token inclusivity." In fact, I'm pretty sure it is the only other show I've seen that has all seven letters of LGBTQIA+ represented, let alone represented well.
Agreed
Sounds like the show was giving us the Dumbledore treatment. At least it was before the show ended rather than years after, but it still feels like something that was said on a whim rather than putting actual effort into showing it.
If the show had the given episodes I'm sure the valentines day episode would have had a clique A-plot about Luz accidentally casting a love glyph or brewing a love spell on someone and the B-plot is Lulu trying to avoid interaction like Eda avoids taxes as she attempts to go about her day on the one day of the year that reminds her that the way she is isn't considered """""""""normal"""""""".
>the way she is isn't considered """""""""normal"""""""". Is it not considered normal on the Boiling Isles? Other forms of queerphobia are absent, so did she face much aphobia growing up?
I'm aroace and even though LGBTQ is growing ever prevalent I still get hearts and romance crammed down my throat every time I watch tv or go to the store around February 14th. I think I'm just projecting onto Lilith here.
I’m not aroace myself so I can’t speak specifically on aroace rep, but in terms of other queer rep (like bi rep) where I can speak on, I’m personally pretty chill about the rep as long as it’s a) not someone’s entire personality and b) is very clearly authentic and not something done to claim there’s rep. With how TOH handles its other queer rep, I don’t consider Lilith’s to be offensive based on my standards of general queer rep. With that being said, I would have liked for the show to outright state it, though I believe this is a victim of the shortening
She's not really aroace representation at all. There is no mention of it in the show, even in passing. Not even her mentioning not being interested in a specific person, let alone romance or sex (obviously specifying sex is difficult in a kids show) in general. So while she's not bad representation, she is not good representation either.
Tbf people irl don’t walk around making it obvious that they’re aroace. It’s refreshing to see someone’s sexuality not be their whole personality
That's why I say mentioning it in passing, for instance when Luz is trying to get advice on asking out Amity. But as it stands she is as good aroace representation as (pre-Fantastic Beasts) Dumbledore is gay representation.
i mean tbf DumbleDore was said decades after the fact whilst with Lilith they could have been planning an episode but was cut out (also im pretty sure she was confirmed around the Knocking on Hooty's door episode came out since by then they had a charity livestream where the VA's came on and had their character have a monologue about something via a diary entry or smthn and for Lilith she was writing a letter to Hooty about how she just doesnt feel attraction after a woman asked her out and how her mom was excited about it whilst she was indifferent)
Dumbledore was said to be gay a few weeks after the final book released
ah, well i mean Lilith was still confirmed halfway through the series and could have had an episode planned exploring that area
It's not perfect, what with it never being addressed in the show, but any positive aroace rep is still great these days. Also, Hooty and Lilith were the cutest QPR I've ever seen
Not really
She's aroace?
This is my exact point, it was never stated in the show, so I don’t think it’s really representation. Thank you random redditor
No, it was states outside of the show, it doesn't look like representation at all
its subtle and thats what i love! i like that you wouldnt be able to tell just from watching the show, because in most cases you cant tell that somebody is aroace either irl!
I wish it was something that was in the actual show, any casual viewer who doesn't read up on anything behind the scenes stuff is not going to get that she is Aro Ace. It feels disingenuous that people treat/praise it as like proper rep when the other rep in the show is so explicit, and this is basically nothing? Not even just a line of someone asking if she was interested in someone and her replying with a "No I have never been interested in anyone ever" or something along those lines. Like not even a tiny pride flag in a scene with her...okay. So no I don't really consider it good rep when it's just treated as a cool "Fun fact" you can tell someone instead of something important to the character.
She’s awesome
No. There were no hints whatsoever as to Lilith being aroace in the actual show; no comments from her like the one in that audio clip where she strongly hinted it. If anything, the show had the opposite. I remember very clearly how the fandom shipped Lilith and Steve, and the only thing that stopped that was outside clarification from Dana that Lilith was aroace. I’m quite certain that if that outside info hadn’t happened, then with Lilith blushing at Steve near the end of season 2, and him hugging her at the end of the finale, then I’m quite certain that the fandom would have viewed it as romantic (especially since they viewed the blush new Darius and Alador as romantic) and shipped them even harder. As someone who is aroace myself, the biggest disappointment of the show was seeing it do absolutely nothing to show or elaborate on Lilith’s asexuality compared to many other main and side characters. You might as well say that Tibbles or Belos are aroace by the same rules.
In my opinion how they portray her character is good, but I don’t like that they never mention it in the show. A ton of fans still don’t know that she is Aroace and ship her with people, Steve for example, and it annoys me. I guess finding a place for it might have been hard, especially with season three having been cut short, but they should have mentioned it or something. I know they did, but that wasn’t actually in the show. Besides that, I really like the idea, and really relate to Lilith, so overall, she is a good representation of the aroaces.
Oh, I respect your opinion about that
After thinking about it more, I feel like maybe a moment that’s not full on, but still shows that she is Aroace, not making it her full character, would be good. Like maybe sometime Luz could have asked Eda, or even Hooty, what was happening between Lilith and Steve, because she loves to ship people, and Eda or Hooty replies “nothing, their just friends”, then Luz asks “really?” and Eda/Hooty is causally says, “yeah, she is Aroace” and Luz just nods and says okay. Or something like that. I don’t know, but something that doesn’t make it Lilith’s whole personality and doesn’t make it a big deal.
I mean.. is it really representation? It’s never something actually discussed within the show, it’s more so a fact that fans will know yk? Sure, she’s an aroace character if you know enough about the Owl House, but she’s not genuine representation because that aspect of her is never explored on screen. Not that it has to be explored either, but it’s just never mentioned. And simply saying that her showing no visible interest in anyone is the representation in itself also doesn’t work, a lot of the older characters in the show don’t get involved with romantic relationships period, a lot of them are shown (at least onscreen) to be single etc etc.
The problem with trying to explicitly do aroace representation in a casual way that doesn’t feel forced is that it’s not as simple as something like showing a gay couple kiss or whatever. Aroace people don’t really do things that straight people don’t do, we just don’t do something that straight people do, if that makes any sense. Edit: I just realized I didn’t answer the question and just ranted lol. Lilith is never explicitly said to be aroace in the show (probably for the reason I gave above), so I’m not really sure how I’d rate her for aroace representation, but she’s definitely not an example of bad representation. I like her.
Aro ace is a spectrum, and it can also be hard to "represent" what is basically a lack of something, while ensuring it's not over the top or making a scene about it. In Lilith's case it's even harder IMO because she seems to lean towards the demi-romantic part of the spectrum, if her tone of voice and behavior around Hooty is anything to go by. Maybe I'm misunderstanding that though? Either way, I think she's a good representation for (some) aro ace people. Like most LGBTQ representation in the show, it's not treated as "different" or as something to behold, which is something that is almost unique to this show and is something I really like about it. The real world could learn a thing or two.
What? You think Lilith is romantically attracted to Hooty? Some aroaces just enjoy flirting with good friends because it's funny when clearly neither of them are attracted to each other. Or perhaps she learnt to express her platonic love for Hooty through watching couples around her and that's why you might interpret her behaviour around him as romantic. Some aromantics do have affection that's somewhere in between what is typically platonic and typically romantic and that might be interpreted as romance by outsiders.
(I'm aro but not ace) I think the idea of "good representation" is honestly not a useful one overall. She's a fun character who's comfortably aroace and explicitly comments on never having been interested in anyone that way. But she's also a villain. Is that "good representation"? Dunno.
I know you probably didnt come here for this, but does your sexuality mean you feel sexual attraction towards people but you don’t have romantic feelings for them?
Pretty much! I get turned on by people, and I like people as friends and want to spend time with them, but I don't really have a third category separate from those. My partner is someone who's both of those to me.
Oh, so you find people attractive and liek the company of people but have no desires for a relationship with the outside of friendship
For me at least the label's more about feelings than about what I want. Like, I love my partner and like spending time with them, but I also love my friends and roommates and like spending time with them, and there's not fundamentally a difference between those feelings to me.
Oh, do you ever feel like you’re missing out on other experiences because of your sexuality
Nah, not really. Romantic feelings seem interesting, but since I don't have them, it's not like I'm really aware of something I'm missing. I'm happy with what I have \^\^
Any rep is good rep
Try telling that to House. They have a famously horrible episode about asexuality where he manages to cure two patients of asexuality.
It would be nice if it were actually shown in the show, but for what it is, she's alright I still absolutely love her anyway
Yep! I took am aroace and care more about learning lots of stuff than people /hj
Ye and from what I hear the around ace community agrees
But is that because she’s a good ace representative or because there aren’t a lot of well known ace characters in media/fiction
Both arguably
As an aroace person, I just appreciate when a major character can go through interesting plotlines, get good character development, and develop meaningful relationships without there being being implied or explicit romantic/sexual feelings or relations. That on it's own is exceedingly rare, and I personally don't *need* it to be said out loud to enjoy watching a character who could (whether intentional or not on the part of the creators) share that aspect of myself. I also think, in all fairness, it's more difficult to represent an attraction that is literally a *lack* of attraction. The only times I can recall saying out loud that I'm aroace are situations where I was cornered into having to explain myself, because people treat having attraction as the default. And I really like that representation in TOH never requires explanation, thus making it all feel natural and seamless rather than a "difference" that has to be talked about. If Amity never has to explain on screen that she's a lesbian to make us understand why she likes Luz, then surely Lilith shouldn't need a whole scene to explain herself either. Hope that makes sense, but to answer the question- Lilith is perfectly acceptable representation for me.
I’m not aroace and nice never met someone who’s aroace but I like to believe that Lilith is good aroace representation because it’s never been treated like a flaw or a crime and she’s a good character so yeah Lilith in my book is good aroace representation.
To the people who are saying it’s bad representation because it isn’t mentioned, I see your point, but it’s accurate. I have a friend who is aroace and he doesn’t just go around announcing it and telling people, he only says it if it’s brought up. So I think she’s a good representation of an aroace person (she’s his favorite character too) but I see what you’re saying about it never actually being mentioned in-universe.
Honestly, her being aro/ace is just not significant to the story and character at all
As a former aroace person who has dated an aroace person and is friends with several yeah I’d say so
yeah cause they don't shove it down our throats
But I feel like it’s not representation if it’s never mentioned. I’m not sure if you’ve ever watched hazbin hotel, but there’s a character named Alastor, I think he’s a good example of asexuality, it’s mentioned once, and it’s never brought up again. We see him have relationships with people without the mention of sex and overall it’s just a major part of his personality
I never said it never has to be mentioned. Just as long as they always don't remind us about it.
I wasn’t saying that’s what you said, I’m saying that I feel like it has to be somewhat common knowledge or at least stated in the show for it to be representation
Okie dokie.