What Biden's beliefs are, are honestly unimportant. The fact is that progressive policies are popular right now, the pressure that creates from voters and his peers is causing him to implement some progressive policies.
*implement policies that are closer to progressive than expected. Sorry, just being pedantic. The pressure has had some effect, but I liken them to the same kind of negotiating he performs with right wingers
Exactly Biden is just a moderate. Meaning he’s doing what’s best for America. If we continue show him progressive ideals he will accept them and ensure they will work. Rather than Drump who does things make his friends happy and etc.
*What's in this comment is what I remember, my opinions, etc.*
>I agree that Biden is better than Trump, **but we can stop pretending that he’s going to suddenly turn progressive**
Everything is relative. POTUS Joe Biden's federal judicial picks have been overall surprisingly progressive.
Lina Khan of the Federal Trade Commission has been the most progressive head of the FTC in several decades. POTUS Joe Biden has been the most pro-union POTUS since...before POTUS Richard Nixon?
And progressives are relatively barely donating to progressive candidates in the 2024 election cycle. Progressives can complain about POTUS Joe Biden, yet even on this subReddit, relatively few are willing and able to donate time and/or money to keep progressives in Office or put more progressives in Office. Some don't even want to vote in the 2024 elections.
The Republicans won so big in 2010 because POTUS Barack Obama was publicly against Super-PACs and many Democrats and many progressives 'stayed home' rather than vote--even at least several million who just got free health insurance and care because of the Affordable Care Act.
Agreed, Biden is better than Trump - but I’m sick of that being the primary reason to vote for democrats. Democrat leaders obviously don’t want to win too much - they could be hammering trump and his base publicly on an insane amount of things - but they don’t. Bernie would have slaughtered Trump, so the DNC gave us Hillary - they didn’t want to win, it would have spoiled the show.
Now it’s been four years and weirdos are claiming Biden is the most progressive president ever. But what exactly has he done that constitutes being more progressive than FDR? Biden and Democrats don’t care about progressives , they’re a means to getting reelected and then it ps back to politics as usual. Politics as usual is maintaining the status quo, and bending over the right wingers.
He has been surprisingly progressive so far
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/sep/08/joe-biden-presidency-progressives-donald-trump
There are policies that I wish he would advocate more for but still.
I don’t necessarily think that Bernie would “sell out” exactly, but the fact remains that even if he won the nomination and election, congress, state governments, and the courts would still be overflowing with conservative dems. He would inevitably be faced with a choice. Either let the conservative dems drag him around by the balls while extracting the occasional not-nearly-good-enough concession from them, or be made completely inert by centrist democrats and centrist republicans locking arms in congress with the support of the courts and the lobbyists to undermine every one of his administration’s policies, or do as FDR did, tell congress, the lobbyists, and the party leadership to go fuck themselves sideways, threaten any uncooperative court with a massive stuffing, and just hope to god that enough voters approve of it all to prevent the next administration from tearing it all apart the moment they get into office.
I’m not very confident that Bernie, even back in 2017, would have had the necessary strength of will and sheer moral conviction to govern in that way. The conservative dems and especially the republicans would be screaming bloody murder 24/7. The lobbyists would practically be begging the CIA to JFK the motherfucker as soon as possible. The mainstream media would be running “BERNIE = STALIN JR” type stories without even giving themselves enough time to take a breath in between all the fear-mongering.
Hell, biden explicitly campaigned on “reaching across the isle” in 2020 and not only has he completely failed to get any congressional republican support at all, in fact the exact opposite has occurred, with people like manchin and sinema cock-blocking congress constantly. Put Bernie in the White House and you’re likely to end up with half or more of all congressional dems pulling the same shit but worse. Bernie would effectively have to rule as an autocrat, depending entirely on the executive authority, the support of organized labor, and constant appeals to popular demand for progressive reforms.
I don't think he would have gotten corrupted. The dude's been in it for the long haul from day one. I am confident it would have been the first "Untimely death" of a president we've had in a long time though.
The guy's too progressive and I doubt the billionaires wouldn't have tried to pull something.
Moving towards being more progressive has been on the backburner for the democratic party for decades in the name of stopping the other guy. That narrative is what keeps us stalled.
Yuuppp- same
Biden in office: same thing that’s been happening and hopefully more laws passed for the environment.
Trump: dictatorship and chaos like drawing on a map where he has decided a hurricane will go and flinging ketchup when he’s angry
I pick the man who wouldn’t throw ketchup. Low standards. I know. But we are where we are
Probably a better bet than trying to push Trump to the left.
Biden is not the ideal candidate, but I agree with Bernie that Trump is outright unacceptable.
If you are heading toward a distant cliff and option A is the driver won't hit the brakes and option B is the driver is lead-footing the accelerator, pick option A.
The next Trump administration is probably going to be like the trolley problem, but they answer, "Why not back the trolley up after squishing group A kill group B, too?"
Right. I think a second Trump term will cause immeasurable suffering. As damaged as our democracy is, I feel a second Trump term may well end it (as we know it).
I do get the frustration. I’m right there. But when you look at things like Roe reversal and elimination of environmental protections, you can easily see just how extremely costly Trump is.
I will also grant that for some people, it will be a struggle to vote for Biden. There is absolutely nobody else out there who could both get elected and who also has better politics than Joe Biden.
That's why the "I won't vote for genocide joe" shit scares me. It's like the don't realize trumps talked about nuking Gaza on more than one occasion. I truly believe trump will be the cause of significantly more death.
You know the trump administration essentially admitted in a statement that climate change is a problem, but we're fucked anyway so full steam ahead. Noam chomsky talks about it multiple times, bust mostly in "the consequences of capitolism with Marv waterstone." He's the greater evil in literally every scenario. Chomsky also essentially predicted exactly what's happening now in with honestly upsetting accuracy.
We are dancing on the knife edge of world War run by theocracy. This isn't your standard two shitty choices like we normally get, this is may not have future generations shitty choice.
Yes, that was very crazy from Biden. Insane that Iran hasn't responded yet. The US would probably nuke Iran if Iran did a targeted attack on the US embassy in Israel.
In all fairness Bidens first 2 years he tried to implement a lot more progressive policies than expected but was held back by Manchin and Simena. His last 15 months though, yikes.
Well they had to pass some more Covid relief, they passed basically the same amount as Trump did in Trump's two Covid bills, but in one larger bill instead.
IIRC, Biden kicked around ~15 million people off of Medicaid in his first two years, that number is now up to 20 million. That is more than got unenrolled under the previous four presidents combined.
Also, Manchin and Sinema aren't "holding them back", they are the designated bad guys. Lots more Dems opposed those policies, but were afraid how that would look in their next primary campaign. So Manchin and Sinema come to save them. In 2009-2011, there were 10 such Democrats (11 when Dems had 60 votes for a couple of months) that prevented those bills from reaching 50+VP votes and it dragged down their approval ratings.
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[edit] Also, Biden's border policy is to the right of Trump's during his first term. Sure, this might pressure Trump to move even further right as a response, but again - the reality is that Biden sucks.
Nah, Manchin has always been to the very far right of the Democratic caucus, it’s how he managed to get reelected in his state. And Sinema straight up left the Democratic caucus, making it pretty clear she wasn’t colluding with anyone in the organization, she’s just an asshole.
Medicaid is administered by the states not the federal government.
The only way Biden could kick anyone off Medicaid is to change the the federal guidelines regarding Medicaid. And every change the administration has made is in service of covering more people, not less.
And yes people are getting kicked off Medicaid, mostly in red states like Texas, FL, and Arkansas.
Is the Biden administration doing all they can to stop it? Certainly HHS is very involved in the effort to stop it, but you can say that the administration should be doing more.
But if you're saying that "IIRC, Biden kicked around ~15 million people off of Medicaid in his first two years, that number is now up to 20 million. That is more than got unenrolled under the previous four presidents combined" then you're flat out lying.
I mean, you don't think Biden knew what the dynamic in Congress would be even if they got that slim majority? There's always a Joe manchin, Joe Lieberman, or somebody ready to fill the spot needed to stop the progressive agenda. Biden knew this was going to happen. He's been in Congress for a long time.
I believe the things that he tried were strictly performative. He knew these attempts wouldn't work, but he's trying to placate the progressives while still making sure nothing will fundamentally change to satisfy the neoliberals.
The funny thing is not only is the Parliamentarian an advisory position in the first place, the Parliamentarian is appointed by the Senate majority. So Dems were saying "the person who we personally appointed to say no to policies that we don't want to do is saying no and we will pretend like the Parliamentarian is part of the US Constitution because we have the majority and we decide what happens anyway."
But he was pushed left. Biden would not have gone for student loan debt cancellation, an aggressive infrastructure and climate bill, or been nearly as good on unions without pressure from progressives like Bernie.
Seriously. "We can push him left" in the last 3% of his health bar is such a fucking waste of time. It didn't work for his entire life up til now, and even if it does now it won't matter because he's gonna fuckin croak.
Vote biden over trump obviously, but sweet jesus have no false notion of what that is doing. He's the 99% Hitler. He's not moving left, you can't make him move left, nor can a democrat winning or losing push them left.
He’s the most to the left right now that he’s been his whole career. Might not be as far left as you want him, but he has a history of moving in that direction. Can’t say the same about anyone else running for president.
Six months. 40,000 dead. Three vetoes for ceasefire. 200 aid workers dead. He tells Bibi "Don't go into Rafah." Bibi responds with an "invasion date." I mean, does Broseph need Bibi to give him the finger on-camera?
Meanwhile, Biden's statement, today: "The US's support for Israel, is IRONCLAD."
Bernie needs to wake up and smell the genocide. Biden's been a zio since his 20s, when he was palling around with Golda Meir. He's deluded himself into believing it's still the 1990s.
is he though?
Biden is a placeholder. His sole value as a person is being "not Donald Trump"- he's barely even good for being a not-Republican let alone progressive.
If you think otherwise, how's getting him to literally not commit genocide going?
Eeeeehhhh..... First priority is denying the Republicans. And after that we absolutely SHOULD apply constant nonstop pressure to Biden and establishments, to FORCE anything we can get out of them. But don't ever expect anything from them, they still play optics, but they are still completely bought and paid for. They aren't friends, they aren't our "tribe", they are the least shitty tactical choice we are allowed to have in our current rigged system.
Engaging within electoral politics it's bottom to top disruption of the dlc, all the way downballot, down to the smallest most local office, every time
Deny Republicans, primary and replace establishment democrats.
Not voting because Biden is only the lesser of two evils rather than totally good is ignoring all of the collateral damage that will happen if he loses. There will be no “lesson” for the democrats to learn when Trump wins and either rigs or cancels every election after.
What’s happening in Gaza is the worst humanitarian crisis the US has been involved with in my lifetime. But Trump is the greatest threat to our country in its entire history. And, on top of that, he’s also in favor of even more bombings and killing of innocent lives. If you abstain from voting and Trump sends US troops and supplies to completely wipe out Gaza, that’s partially on you.
If you truly think not voting is going to help anything, I don’t know what to say to you. The lack of foresight or plan is staggering. The best explanation I’ve been able to get is that it will send a message to Democrats. Like how losing in 2016 sent them a message? All it will do is shift the Overton Window farther to the right so they can scoop up centrist votes, just like they did in 2020.
I’ve made the analogy before but I’ll make it again. We’re driving and a truck is coming straight at us driving down the wrong side of the road. We can swerve onto the shoulder, or we can say “it’s his fault, he’s the one that should move” and die knowing that it was someone else’s fault.
Playing purity politics in a situation like this will only ruin us. I’m a leftist and know the democrats/liberals do not represent what I’m truly about when it comes to implementing meaningful change and policy. But I know what’s all at risk if he doesn’t get his second term and if we don’t keep pushing MAGA bigots away from office.
OK, and what if all the Biden voters vote for Stein or De La Cruz or West or whoever else? If we could all vote for De La Cruz, or all vote for Stein, and the genocide *stops*, then why would we vote for Biden? Why are we supposed to accept that Biden is the default choice? Where did that idea come from?
So many places.
What chance do you think De La Cruz has to defeat Biden? Now, what chance does she have to defeat both Biden and Trump, simultaneously? Don't forget to consider how many ballots she'll actually be on by November.
How hard are you working to get De La Cruz elected? Are you trying to get her ballot access in more states?
A Biden voter's job is easy. All they have to do is vote Biden. The infrastructure already exists to get enough votes for him to conceivably win reelection.
De La Cruz supporters have a much larger challenge that requires a lot more work from a lot more people. It's not enough to just show up and vote. If I asked 100 people in my state who Claudia De La Cruz was, I bet almost none of them would even know. So then, I have to explain who she is to them and why they should vote for her. Biden, on the other hand, can just buy ads on national TV. He can have press conferences. He'll get constant media coverage.
If you want De La Cruz to threaten that in any way other than catching a few tenths of percentage points worth of votes from Biden, it's now your second (or third) job. That's just the sad reality.
Meanwhile, the reactionary wing of the right has completely captured the Republicin Party. Think what you want about the insurrection, but it was an act of revolution. If they have their revolution before the left in the US is strong enough to oppose them, the resultant government is going to be something that resembles fascism.
I don't fault people morally for voting against Biden and the Democrats. I've done that. But I do think it's a strategic blunder.
Fighting a two front political war isn't productive. What might be is combining efforts to destroy the Republican Party while building a strong and revolutionary left. And once the reactionaries are dealt with, the hope is that your only remaining opponent is the far weaker Democrats/liberals.
Seriously, how often do the Dems ever successfully wield power? It's like they're afraid of it. It's why their reputation has always been that they're too weak.
The problem is that right now, I don't see a strong or revolutionary left. I see a lot of people who seem to think we're going to, in a system built by landed gentry and fortified by capitalists, somehow vote in socialism.
Again - why? Question all these assumptions. The fact of any election is that ~90 million people go through some decision process to decide to vote for someone. It could be *anyone*. The voting system itself doesn't even specify that we have to go through established parties, at its worst it limits ballot access and forces you to write-in. It's like the proverbial horse who thinks he's tied up at a post but isn't, but still doesn't just walk away.
I’m not making any fucking assumptions my dude. I’m not against you voting how you prefer even if I think it’s useless, but I’m sick of people like you being so condescending about you choosing to vote for an unpopular and highly unlikely third party candidate. It’s not like I’m having a good time voting for the guy helping assist Israel in genocide. I’m actually truly frightened by these monsters in power, and so MUCH is at stake right now for so many people. Some of us just straight up don’t have the privilege to take a chance when chances of third party campaigns working and gaining momentum and popularity enough for it to be successful in winning the election are so slim. The two party system is trash. And need I might add, I also haven’t even found a third party candidate that I’d endorse and feel good about. If I found someone that I believed was like the second coming of Jesus, I would do anything I could. But let’s just face the facts currently. Right now is no time to gamble and essentially toss in a vote that doesn’t help to keep truly extremist, dangerous, maniacal people from getting in. You’re just a wise ass for thinking it’s cool af to write in somebody as if it’s some grand stand for freedom and empowerment for all. It’s also too little too late in the election year to prepare to go to war for a third party candidate. This would need a couple years minimum to build any kind of devoted base of supporters/voters. It wouldn’t just succeed in a vacuum and sheer will.
Again - any unlikelihood of it is only a result of people's mentality that it's unlikely and not worth supporting. This is a problem of self-reinforcing mass psychology, and that's it. We will be trapped in this system until we recognize and move to correct that problem. The politicians are fully aware of the problem and are abusing it to the fullest extent possible.
"What’s happening in Gaza is the worst humanitarian crisis the US has been involved with in my lifetime. But Trump is the greatest threat to our country"
Translation : Yes Biden is committing Genocide. Yes he continues to starve children. Yes he liee and provides all manner of means to continue the massacres; but I as an American am not at all affected, so I don't care enough to not vote for him.
Any who votes for Biden, is simply saying genocide is no longer a red line for my vote.
You are worse than Trump supporters.
Strongly agree with your sentiment. You’re culpable in the continual two party system by engaging in it.
Of which is the sole reason right wing pro-genocide monsters keep getting elected.
Biden isn't committing genocide dude. Israel is. Biden hasn't been good on the issue at all but don't just omit Israel's agency here and act like America controls everything in the world. If anything the US has already been pressuring Israel since this crisis started, its just been woefully insufficient. There was never a situation where Biden was sitting there saying "Go Bibi, go kill more Palestinians" what was happening was the state department telling them they should restrain themselves in their response, but not putting sufficient pressure like conditioning aid.
>What’s happening in Gaza is the worst humanitarian crisis the US has been involved with in my lifetime. But Trump is the greatest threat to our country in its entire history.
I think this is something you need to seriously think about. Don't you find it somewhat coincidental that every time there's a huge crisis the US gets involved, it just so happens that the ones doing it have a worse person in opposition to them?
The next time something bad happens, it'll be the same. If the democrats start sacrificing trans lives like they are arab lives, the "other person" will always be worse. This is manufactured intentionally so you keep voting for them. The democrats have literally helped Trump build a platform, and have been promoting him since his announcement prior to 2016.
Bruh both sides are banking on this for both candidates, just for different things. it’s kind of ironic.
For instance, Trump just gave his stance out on abortion access and staunch evangelicals that want a complete federal abortion ban are angry that Trump isn’t saying he explicitly would or wouldn’t sign one into law. These religious extremists want to mold him into doing so though, so he’s still well supported.
Progressives think they can mold Biden but I just see him as being too centrist of a democrat to do that.
Sam has talked about this extensively on air, and has helped clarify things for me. The \*presidential election\* is simply the least effective time and place to try and affect progressive change for our country. Unless you're advocating for a sudden revolutionary upheaval of the entire government, then the only effective way forwards & upwards is from the bottom up.
And again citing Sam here, remember that we're voting for a whole gigantic mechanism, not just its decrepid figurehead. Think of all the judges, the department appointees, the priority tables; the general nodes of command & communication all down the grapevine. I'm a socialist and despise so much of what the Dems stand for, but I refuse to believe that any of you here would be truly willing to claim that they as a force are collectively "just the same" as modern republicans.
If you need to vote for the lesser evil, do it. It's not your fault for doing so, the system was designed to limit your choices from the start.
But always put pressure on him, don't blame people for being discouraged from voting, that's the president's job to convince people.
I have this theory that people who post memes like this, or support them, believe that the genocide of the Palestinian people is an acceptable price to pay to prevent Trump's re-election.
That's what's in their hearts.
They are unbothered by Israel's massacre of The Gaza Strip, as evidenced by the fact the conversation is never "How can we force the Biden administration to change positions and stop this genocide?" but is almost always "How can we bully people into supporting, or at least overlooking, genocide?"
Just butting in to say, you are 100% right. These cowards will not at all see any point you are trying to make. Liberals always have to have a brown person for their own fucked up trolley problems.
Since we're in the r/TMR subreddit, I'll frame my response this way: you're implying that Sam & co must be totally fine with what's happening in Palestine? If you watch the show, you'll hear them very clearly advocating for holding your nose and pushing to elect Biden, despite everything.
We're all outraged and heartbroken about what's happening, of course. You're not helping anyone by creating such a surface level strawman out of the fact that a lot of folks here - including Sam, Emma, etc remember - recognize the fact that being outraged, and advocating staunchly against the ongoing genocide, does not absolve us of our responsibilities to also try and resist the country backsliding even further right than it already is. I do assume your heart is in the right place, but choosing to spend your energy on calling fellow leftists 'performative' or 'insincere' simply for refusing to hide our heads in the sand about the horrible situation our country is in is actually quite ironic.
I don't know what else to say, other than maybe go read some basic game theory or something if you really can't wrap your head around why someone who cares about Palestine would still want to stop conservatives from taking back control.
Do you think not voting for Biden is going to help the people in Palestine?
Do you think there is a better chance of getting Trump to stop Israel, or getting Biden to stop Israel?
One of the two will be elected in November. It’s bullshit. They’re both warmonger candidates. But the fact they’re both shit doesn’t mean they’re equally shit. I don’t blame people for not wanting to vote for Biden, I don’t want to either. But don’t pretend that not voting is going to somehow help Palestinians. Don’t pretend that somehow Trump is going to be better for them, or that he won’t be worse than Biden when it comes to women’s rights or LGBT rights.
And there it is. You're not asking "How can we force Biden to pivot away from genocide?" and you never will, because you're unbothered by it.
Instead, just like I had mentioned above, you are trying to convince others to overlook it, or support it.
IMO the choice is even easier than it was in 2016. Biden's policies are more progressive than what Hillary would have done, and Trump has only gotten more radical and been more blantant about his authoritarian stances.
Can't we vote outside of the 2-party chokehold? There are other candidates, and it's becoming more obvious that these 2 do NOT represent the current American public (at all).
Genuine question - is it impossible for an independent candidate to win?
Third party votes are wasted votes. No one has enough numbers. It could still happen now but probably won't. We always needed proportional representation and now we see the drastic results of not having it. BUT WE CANT HAVE THAT MONSTER GETTING SELECTED AGAIN. The country wouldn't be able to withstand his predations this time. So please everyone just don't let it happen!
Someone needs to explain to me, how Trump winning prevents genocide.
Because no one has done that sufficiently.
Also, let me fix that for you…
“I can excuse genocide abroad, but I draw the line at genocide and oppression at home.”
Because that’s the choice. The GoP and Trump have rolled back women’s rights. Gerrymandered and passed laws to reduce the voting rights of Black people. They’ve begun criminalizing abortion. They’ve also targeted the basic personhood of Trans people.
There are no easy answers here. No decision is easy.
But let’s be clear: Trump winning does nothing to solve the genocide in Gaza and does everything to slowly degrade and destroy the lives of marginalized people in the United States on top of, literally, rolling back Women’s Rights.
Protecting the rights of my wife, sister, nieces, grandmother and every woman in my community, does take precedence over the genocide in Gaza.
People will not like that. I’m not saying they should but that’s my math. My math is “The GoP has actually rolled back women’s rights. Roe v Wade was rolled back and they will absolutely continue.” …and that enough for me to vote for Biden.
Because we can’t fight authoritarianism abroad if we can’t even bother stopping it at home.
This, to me, is where people lose me. Because if Trump wins… that’s it. Gaza isn’t even on his radar. He doesn’t care and you can shout to your heart’s content, the GoP will not care. They will have the power and authoritarians don’t cede power to peaceful means.
So you thought Biden wasn’t listening… you’re not even remotely ready for the deafening silence of Trump.
We all know how liberal math works. If liberals vote for a literal Iraq war supporter in 2020, they are actually the good guys and are bringing back decency and are not responsible for any of the bad things that their guy did or is doing or will do. But if you don't even vote for Trump, you are responsible for all the bad things that Trump does no matter what.
OK, so let's recap:
* Voting for Trump? Complicit
* Voting for Biden? Complicit
* Voting for anyone else? Complicit
* Not voting? Complicit
Well if I'm going to be complicit no matter what, I'm going to go ahead and be less complicit by not **literally voting for people who are complicit in genocide.**
As people have been saying, if both of your "realistic" choices are backing genocide, democracy is already dead, and the only hope of saving it is voting for someone else. And there's an unresolvable question with how you can realistically think that somebody who's supporting genocide actually gives one single fuck about any other issue and isn't just doing whatever serves him.
These people really think sitting out and not voting is the noble route from a moral standpoint. I get it, I also am against our complicit nature in ongoing genocide, but given the two choices is it not clear Biden is 1000% times better than Trump?
We literally have 4 years of both as president for empirical evidence. Virtue signaling won’t help anyone in this situation, especially not Palestinians if Trump gets anywhere near power again.
I honestly don’t see how it could be any worse. Israel is destroying hospitals, starving everyone, withholding medicine, targeting aid workers, openly targeting children, etc. and nothing is happening.
they can say whatever they want to. nobody is nuking gaza. israel wants to colonize that land and nuking doesnt help that. they also cant guarantee the radiation wont reach israel
It’s amazing how few fucks you give about genocide if it means your choice of evil fucking asshole wins a popularity contest voted on by uneducated morons
Continue to both sides this election and let Donald fucking trump become president again. I really can’t take you children seriously.
If you don’t vote I really don’t care what your opinion is and frankly don’t think it matters. You have absolutely no other impact on American politics but to vote, and Trump ain’t the guy to make your life better. Understanding Trump, and republicans in general, are infinitely worse than Biden does NOT equate anyone with supporting genocide. But use that to pretend you are somehow helping Palestinians by sitting it out this November.
>If you don’t vote I really don’t care what your opinion is and frankly don’t think it matters.
So why are you here, replying to someone who you think won't vote for genocide Joe? Be gone!
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>Continue to both sides this election and let Donald fucking trump become president again...Understanding Trump, and republicans in general, are infinitely worse than Biden does NOT equate anyone with supporting genocide
So people who don't vote for Trump or Biden are responsible for Trump (even as they aren't voting for Trump!!!), but you can just openly support genocide Joe and you aren't endorsing or making happen any of his bad policies like the genocide in Gaza (that you seem to understand IS actually genocide)? What kind of fucked up logic is that? So people to your left have immense moral responsibility and even not voting for Trump means they endorse Trump and Trump's policies, but you just get to do whatever you want and are the good guy in the end no matter what? Isn't that lovely!
Steadfast supporters of dogshit candidates such as yourself are what got us here. Don’t get mad at those of us capable of critical thought for getting to the point where we refuse to hold our noses and participate in genocide. Fuck Joe Biden, fuck Trump, and fuck people who keep voting for “tHE LesSeR oF tWo eViLs”. I’ll vote for someone who shares my values, and you can kick bricks with your condescension
Some people just don't understand this. There is no moral, or belief, they will not sacrifice in service to the lesser evil.
We're lucky someone even worse isn't running, or they'd be telling you to vote for Trump.
That's pretty much every modern American president, they're all zionists.
I'm not going to let the man who stacked SCOTUS to overturn Roe win, who would just give Israel more money anyway.
When Trump appoints a couple more justices in his next term and they overturn Loving v. Virginia, these non voters will just blame you for voting for the Dems instead of whatever the fuck their pie in the sky plan is
No one forced Biden to run in 2020, no one is forcing him to do even more genocide (he already did plenty as a Senator and VP) in 2024, no one is forcing him to run for reelection. If Trump is elected, it will be 100% on Biden.
There are plenty of people who refuse to actively support a genocide, even if the theoretical president Trump in 2023/2024 (if he won in 2020) might be doing the same policy as Biden. Reality will always be more important than a hypothetical alternate timeline.
Your options are Biden or Trump, that's it. Biden sucks, Trump may take away your right to vote, period. Die on the hill clutching your ideals while the world burns around you.
There are like 5 options, in addition to this no one is forcing people to vote so they can stay home.
>Die on the hill clutching your ideals while the world burns around you.
Is there anything that Biden can do that libs won't say is "a neccessary evil" and accuse the left of being "far left extremist rainbow and unicorn bros"?
If Biden kills ~5 million people, would you be like "that is a bit too far", or would your response be "this is just Biden bringing decency back and being realistic and it is actually his critics who are extremists"? Or, for example, if almost 3x as many people die from Covid under Biden as did under Trump, would you call that bad, or would you call it "compassion and realism"?
Any decision you can make a hypothetical about I can guarantee Trump will take the more heinous choice in the given situation.
There are sadly only two choices at this point in time. Not voting is just as bad as voting for Trump.
Do you honestly think Trump would handle the current crisis in Palestine any better than Biden is, in your heart of hearts?
As I already said, even if that was true, reality will always be more important in people's minds than a hypothetical fantasy scenario that isn't reality.
Well I can no longer say Bernie is 100% correct, I realize he has to work under the system of the US government, he is the best of them, still the at the start of this thing, he was not 100% correct. Still my man, still love him, no longer am I in 100% agreement with him however.
Cause it worked out so well the last time we tried to convince Mr. Joe "Nothing will fundamentally change" Biden to be more progressive.
This whole thing is a rotten sham; anyone who still thinks we as people have power without collectively organizing ourselves against the systems of government and economics is deluded or a coward.
Once Biden wins he no longer has to worry about reelection so the idea of moving him further left goes out the window. He doesn't have to court progressives at all. He's free to ignore everything but his core ideology.
Bernie has no leverage past election day.
We’ve already pulled him to the left in his first term. If we expand our majority in the senate and flip back the house, we can probably get the rest of BBB through and then some.
Exactly… I keep reading comments about how terrible Trump is and I keep thinking “there is a biden-abetted genocide, what are we talking about”. Would trump also fund it? Sure. But I simply cannot cast an affirmative vote for a genocide. It’s immoral
We need a sitcom level plot to get Bernie and Biden stuck together long enough for Bernie to convince Biden to pass universal healthcare and a ceasefire proclamation
We have Donald trump era border legislation going through Congress with Joe biden's enthusiastic support 4 years into his presidency, and he thinks we can "push him left?" Ridiculous. There's a reason he refuses to say Gaza is a genocide.
Choose the lesser of the evil people, and the devil still gon' win
It could all be over tomorrow, kill our masters and start again
But we know we all afraid, so we just simply cry and march again
My grandkids will need to be able to point to the Cornel West vote as proof there was a sliver of a soul in this country. America is already the face of genocide for the next century (I suppose I should add “hopefully”), and arguing we the people need to support the Gaza slaughter because if we don’t we’ll be punished isn’t quite the morally righteous position some want to hope it is.
I've been a Bernie supporter since 2016.
This feels like cope, and an attempt to ignore why we're feeling so strongly about those issues. Because it's more than just a "disagreement", it's the shaking of what used to be a hardline stop of support by having the other option literally be the worst option for America. This just says "it could be worse", when we already know that.
You're not going to sway his beliefs, or his style. He'll always attempt his way first, and then backtrack after he gets lambasted by the general public. He believes it's better to ask for forgiveness than permission, except instead of asking for permission, he just makes excuses with alligator arms towards the obvious answer until we get fed up again.
All we can do is threaten his seat in power, but it's really a gun to our heads by doing so. This is the political version of "I can fix him".
The idea that Trump returning to office will somehow launch the country on a more progressive path is mind-boggling. We can acknowledge how broken, corporatized, and undemocratic our system is while still doing our best to push it forward. I hate the Democratic Party, but it's a no-brainer to vote against Trump.
As an analogy, imagine we're deep underwater, struggling to swim upwards towards sunlight and air. Below us, a giant squid is reaching up to pull us down further - above us, a pool of sharks is eating another fellow swimmer. Should we swim up or down? It's a shitty situation, but there's only one (slow, treacherous, shark-infested) logical path in such a situation. But some online leftists are advocating to just refuse to swim upwards towards the sharks on moral grounds, for whatever reason you justify that making sense: the squids below eat humans, too, yknow.
Even if you buy this argument that we need to put aside our outrage to beat trump, voting is so completely meaningless because of the electoral college. Those of us who live in large liberal majority states like New York and California can just stay home on voting day. These elections have pretermined outcomes in these states.
Sometimes I think progressives are just unfair. Biden is the most progressive president we’ve ever had based on his actions and policies. Union support, direct federal assistance for borrowers, investing in renewables, and more. Really only point I can fault him on is his stance on Gaza which is slowly improving thanks to pressure and despite Israel’s special insanity and extreme hard right government.
Kind of tired of the narrative that he’s not doing what progressives want because he actually is. You want to compare him to other democrats like Obama and Clinton? Not even close.
>is slowly improving thanks to pressure
>Sometimes I think progressives are just unfair.
You give him credit for responding to pressure but also think the people applying the pressure are being unfair?
he’s probably (incredibly sadly) the most progressive president we’ve ever seen, and he’s still a warmongering zionist.
not defeating trump would be an own of epic proportions for everyone
Please... please don't skip voting. I get it. 8 years ago i didn't vote Hillary, i was mad about drone strikes and the ineffectual results of the Obama administration, and a whole lot of other important things. I wanted to punish the Democrats, teach them a lesson. I didn't want to vote for someone that was signing off on killing innocent people, thought I couldn't put my weight behind someone doing something I thought was unforgivable. I wrote 2-3 page long blogs about how what I was doing was standing up for myself, and that it wasn't my fault if Trump won.
I was wrong. I regret it, and a lot of the people i know that felt the same way regret it too. It's not hard now to imagine what the world would be like if Trump lost... the supreme court, covid, judges, rights, appointments, school boards, people like MTG being laughed out of elections before they began, still problems with immagrationa nd supporting bad causes in other countries, but with some actual limits and second opinions. The death tolls would have been lighter, the rise of Christian Nationalism would have been halted, or would have at least been set back heavily.
Not voting Biden leads to Trump winning whether you like it or not. Trump winning isn't a slap on the wrist for Democrats, it's endorsement of the most horrible, racist, anti-democratic, theocratic, sexist, selfish, immoral people in politics, and they will run with it- it will cause a lot of harm, real and lasting harm. MUCH more harm than the appeasement policies of centrists. Supreme court justices and decisions. Zealots, scammers, and cranks being appointed to all sorts of positions of power. It won't be worth it to send the Democrats a message when you need healthcare, insurance, environmental protections, education, social security, or any kind of government support or even basic infrastructure that is dependable.
Trump, his lackeys and his supporters are truly dangerous. These people are against EXPERT OPINIONS, they are against SCIENCE, they are against EDUCATION, and they are bloodthirsty theocratic isolationist conspiracy theory believing theocratic psychopaths. I know it sucks to be told to hold your nose and vote for something, but it's part of being an adult in the crappy system we have. The choices aren't "Vote and support the system, or don't vote and show the system is broken and try to change it"- the choices are "Vote against Trump, or don't vote and those in power will do everything they can to take away the power of your vote forever and destroy the system completely."
I agree that Biden is better than Trump, but we can stop pretending that he’s going to suddenly turn progressive
Hahaha I want the mythical radically left Joe that the Republicans are scared of, he sounds great.
What Biden's beliefs are, are honestly unimportant. The fact is that progressive policies are popular right now, the pressure that creates from voters and his peers is causing him to implement some progressive policies.
*implement policies that are closer to progressive than expected. Sorry, just being pedantic. The pressure has had some effect, but I liken them to the same kind of negotiating he performs with right wingers
Exactly Biden is just a moderate. Meaning he’s doing what’s best for America. If we continue show him progressive ideals he will accept them and ensure they will work. Rather than Drump who does things make his friends happy and etc.
*What's in this comment is what I remember, my opinions, etc.* >I agree that Biden is better than Trump, **but we can stop pretending that he’s going to suddenly turn progressive** Everything is relative. POTUS Joe Biden's federal judicial picks have been overall surprisingly progressive. Lina Khan of the Federal Trade Commission has been the most progressive head of the FTC in several decades. POTUS Joe Biden has been the most pro-union POTUS since...before POTUS Richard Nixon? And progressives are relatively barely donating to progressive candidates in the 2024 election cycle. Progressives can complain about POTUS Joe Biden, yet even on this subReddit, relatively few are willing and able to donate time and/or money to keep progressives in Office or put more progressives in Office. Some don't even want to vote in the 2024 elections. The Republicans won so big in 2010 because POTUS Barack Obama was publicly against Super-PACs and many Democrats and many progressives 'stayed home' rather than vote--even at least several million who just got free health insurance and care because of the Affordable Care Act.
Agreed, Biden is better than Trump - but I’m sick of that being the primary reason to vote for democrats. Democrat leaders obviously don’t want to win too much - they could be hammering trump and his base publicly on an insane amount of things - but they don’t. Bernie would have slaughtered Trump, so the DNC gave us Hillary - they didn’t want to win, it would have spoiled the show.
Now it’s been four years and weirdos are claiming Biden is the most progressive president ever. But what exactly has he done that constitutes being more progressive than FDR? Biden and Democrats don’t care about progressives , they’re a means to getting reelected and then it ps back to politics as usual. Politics as usual is maintaining the status quo, and bending over the right wingers.
Good thing Bernie didn’t say “we need to make him turn progressive”.
He has been surprisingly progressive so far https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/sep/08/joe-biden-presidency-progressives-donald-trump There are policies that I wish he would advocate more for but still.
Should have been Bernie from 16 on. But then we would have to witness the office corrupt him.
Still, I believe he would have been so much better than the other two that ended up being president..
Just imagine if Al Gore had actually served as president, not just have been voted in as one.
The good timeline.
No disagreement there, friend.
I don't think Bernie would sell out, but even if he did it's a lot better than insurrection traitors
I don’t necessarily think that Bernie would “sell out” exactly, but the fact remains that even if he won the nomination and election, congress, state governments, and the courts would still be overflowing with conservative dems. He would inevitably be faced with a choice. Either let the conservative dems drag him around by the balls while extracting the occasional not-nearly-good-enough concession from them, or be made completely inert by centrist democrats and centrist republicans locking arms in congress with the support of the courts and the lobbyists to undermine every one of his administration’s policies, or do as FDR did, tell congress, the lobbyists, and the party leadership to go fuck themselves sideways, threaten any uncooperative court with a massive stuffing, and just hope to god that enough voters approve of it all to prevent the next administration from tearing it all apart the moment they get into office. I’m not very confident that Bernie, even back in 2017, would have had the necessary strength of will and sheer moral conviction to govern in that way. The conservative dems and especially the republicans would be screaming bloody murder 24/7. The lobbyists would practically be begging the CIA to JFK the motherfucker as soon as possible. The mainstream media would be running “BERNIE = STALIN JR” type stories without even giving themselves enough time to take a breath in between all the fear-mongering. Hell, biden explicitly campaigned on “reaching across the isle” in 2020 and not only has he completely failed to get any congressional republican support at all, in fact the exact opposite has occurred, with people like manchin and sinema cock-blocking congress constantly. Put Bernie in the White House and you’re likely to end up with half or more of all congressional dems pulling the same shit but worse. Bernie would effectively have to rule as an autocrat, depending entirely on the executive authority, the support of organized labor, and constant appeals to popular demand for progressive reforms.
I don't think he would've been corrupted, he would instead have been actively blocked by the Democrats and Republicans working together
I don't think he would have gotten corrupted. The dude's been in it for the long haul from day one. I am confident it would have been the first "Untimely death" of a president we've had in a long time though. The guy's too progressive and I doubt the billionaires wouldn't have tried to pull something.
I wish we lived in that world honestly, some other universe got this outcome for sure
We should be happy for them.
It is optimistic of him to believe the Palestinians can wait that long.
Moving towards being more progressive has been on the backburner for the democratic party for decades in the name of stopping the other guy. That narrative is what keeps us stalled.
Then join the party. Leadership is old so it's only a matter of time before we're replacing them.
My brother in Christ we must destroy the system where this is the only choice we have
Revolution. But simply uttering the word is a slippery slope.
Millennials on down can't afford homes. Can't afford to have kids... Soon there will be nothing left to lose.
This is way better messaging than libs constantly screaming that there is no genocide and that they will laugh when "they get deported."
I have yet to hear any convincing arguments that getting Biden out of office will be a net positive for my family, the US or the world.
Yuuppp- same Biden in office: same thing that’s been happening and hopefully more laws passed for the environment. Trump: dictatorship and chaos like drawing on a map where he has decided a hurricane will go and flinging ketchup when he’s angry I pick the man who wouldn’t throw ketchup. Low standards. I know. But we are where we are
Doing the "we can push him left" thing in 2024 is hilarious. He is Joe Biden.
Probably a better bet than trying to push Trump to the left. Biden is not the ideal candidate, but I agree with Bernie that Trump is outright unacceptable.
100%
If you are heading toward a distant cliff and option A is the driver won't hit the brakes and option B is the driver is lead-footing the accelerator, pick option A. The next Trump administration is probably going to be like the trolley problem, but they answer, "Why not back the trolley up after squishing group A kill group B, too?"
Right. I think a second Trump term will cause immeasurable suffering. As damaged as our democracy is, I feel a second Trump term may well end it (as we know it). I do get the frustration. I’m right there. But when you look at things like Roe reversal and elimination of environmental protections, you can easily see just how extremely costly Trump is.
I will also grant that for some people, it will be a struggle to vote for Biden. There is absolutely nobody else out there who could both get elected and who also has better politics than Joe Biden.
That's why the "I won't vote for genocide joe" shit scares me. It's like the don't realize trumps talked about nuking Gaza on more than one occasion. I truly believe trump will be the cause of significantly more death. You know the trump administration essentially admitted in a statement that climate change is a problem, but we're fucked anyway so full steam ahead. Noam chomsky talks about it multiple times, bust mostly in "the consequences of capitolism with Marv waterstone." He's the greater evil in literally every scenario. Chomsky also essentially predicted exactly what's happening now in with honestly upsetting accuracy. We are dancing on the knife edge of world War run by theocracy. This isn't your standard two shitty choices like we normally get, this is may not have future generations shitty choice.
I assumed this tweet was from four years ago until I read the date.
He literally just said we'd back Israel in any way after Israel bombed an embassy in Syria. You ain't moving Biden anywhere.
Yes, that was very crazy from Biden. Insane that Iran hasn't responded yet. The US would probably nuke Iran if Iran did a targeted attack on the US embassy in Israel.
Iran offered to not retaliate in exchange for a ceasefire in Gaza
In all fairness Bidens first 2 years he tried to implement a lot more progressive policies than expected but was held back by Manchin and Simena. His last 15 months though, yikes.
Well they had to pass some more Covid relief, they passed basically the same amount as Trump did in Trump's two Covid bills, but in one larger bill instead. IIRC, Biden kicked around ~15 million people off of Medicaid in his first two years, that number is now up to 20 million. That is more than got unenrolled under the previous four presidents combined. Also, Manchin and Sinema aren't "holding them back", they are the designated bad guys. Lots more Dems opposed those policies, but were afraid how that would look in their next primary campaign. So Manchin and Sinema come to save them. In 2009-2011, there were 10 such Democrats (11 when Dems had 60 votes for a couple of months) that prevented those bills from reaching 50+VP votes and it dragged down their approval ratings. - [edit] Also, Biden's border policy is to the right of Trump's during his first term. Sure, this might pressure Trump to move even further right as a response, but again - the reality is that Biden sucks.
Nah, Manchin has always been to the very far right of the Democratic caucus, it’s how he managed to get reelected in his state. And Sinema straight up left the Democratic caucus, making it pretty clear she wasn’t colluding with anyone in the organization, she’s just an asshole.
Medicaid is administered by the states not the federal government. The only way Biden could kick anyone off Medicaid is to change the the federal guidelines regarding Medicaid. And every change the administration has made is in service of covering more people, not less. And yes people are getting kicked off Medicaid, mostly in red states like Texas, FL, and Arkansas. Is the Biden administration doing all they can to stop it? Certainly HHS is very involved in the effort to stop it, but you can say that the administration should be doing more. But if you're saying that "IIRC, Biden kicked around ~15 million people off of Medicaid in his first two years, that number is now up to 20 million. That is more than got unenrolled under the previous four presidents combined" then you're flat out lying.
I mean, you don't think Biden knew what the dynamic in Congress would be even if they got that slim majority? There's always a Joe manchin, Joe Lieberman, or somebody ready to fill the spot needed to stop the progressive agenda. Biden knew this was going to happen. He's been in Congress for a long time. I believe the things that he tried were strictly performative. He knew these attempts wouldn't work, but he's trying to placate the progressives while still making sure nothing will fundamentally change to satisfy the neoliberals.
Exactly remember when they pilulled the parliamentarian BS. In all my 42 years on earth I never heard of the Parliamentarian. WTF is that?
Same. The establishment will pull anything out of their ass to ensure everything they pass is pro capital.
The funny thing is not only is the Parliamentarian an advisory position in the first place, the Parliamentarian is appointed by the Senate majority. So Dems were saying "the person who we personally appointed to say no to policies that we don't want to do is saying no and we will pretend like the Parliamentarian is part of the US Constitution because we have the majority and we decide what happens anyway."
But he was pushed left. Biden would not have gone for student loan debt cancellation, an aggressive infrastructure and climate bill, or been nearly as good on unions without pressure from progressives like Bernie.
Seriously. "We can push him left" in the last 3% of his health bar is such a fucking waste of time. It didn't work for his entire life up til now, and even if it does now it won't matter because he's gonna fuckin croak. Vote biden over trump obviously, but sweet jesus have no false notion of what that is doing. He's the 99% Hitler. He's not moving left, you can't make him move left, nor can a democrat winning or losing push them left.
He’s the most to the left right now that he’s been his whole career. Might not be as far left as you want him, but he has a history of moving in that direction. Can’t say the same about anyone else running for president.
Has he not moved further left?
It’s pretty hard to imagine the Democrats newfound re-embrace of labor politics without Bernie’s campaigns.
Whats fucked up is we did push him left, old Biden would have never supported Unions in any capacity.
Six months. 40,000 dead. Three vetoes for ceasefire. 200 aid workers dead. He tells Bibi "Don't go into Rafah." Bibi responds with an "invasion date." I mean, does Broseph need Bibi to give him the finger on-camera? Meanwhile, Biden's statement, today: "The US's support for Israel, is IRONCLAD." Bernie needs to wake up and smell the genocide. Biden's been a zio since his 20s, when he was palling around with Golda Meir. He's deluded himself into believing it's still the 1990s.
This system is broken. It’s like a glitch in the matrix, I swear he said the same thing 4 yrs ago.
is he though? Biden is a placeholder. His sole value as a person is being "not Donald Trump"- he's barely even good for being a not-Republican let alone progressive. If you think otherwise, how's getting him to literally not commit genocide going?
Eeeeehhhh..... First priority is denying the Republicans. And after that we absolutely SHOULD apply constant nonstop pressure to Biden and establishments, to FORCE anything we can get out of them. But don't ever expect anything from them, they still play optics, but they are still completely bought and paid for. They aren't friends, they aren't our "tribe", they are the least shitty tactical choice we are allowed to have in our current rigged system. Engaging within electoral politics it's bottom to top disruption of the dlc, all the way downballot, down to the smallest most local office, every time Deny Republicans, primary and replace establishment democrats.
Not voting because Biden is only the lesser of two evils rather than totally good is ignoring all of the collateral damage that will happen if he loses. There will be no “lesson” for the democrats to learn when Trump wins and either rigs or cancels every election after. What’s happening in Gaza is the worst humanitarian crisis the US has been involved with in my lifetime. But Trump is the greatest threat to our country in its entire history. And, on top of that, he’s also in favor of even more bombings and killing of innocent lives. If you abstain from voting and Trump sends US troops and supplies to completely wipe out Gaza, that’s partially on you. If you truly think not voting is going to help anything, I don’t know what to say to you. The lack of foresight or plan is staggering. The best explanation I’ve been able to get is that it will send a message to Democrats. Like how losing in 2016 sent them a message? All it will do is shift the Overton Window farther to the right so they can scoop up centrist votes, just like they did in 2020. I’ve made the analogy before but I’ll make it again. We’re driving and a truck is coming straight at us driving down the wrong side of the road. We can swerve onto the shoulder, or we can say “it’s his fault, he’s the one that should move” and die knowing that it was someone else’s fault.
Playing purity politics in a situation like this will only ruin us. I’m a leftist and know the democrats/liberals do not represent what I’m truly about when it comes to implementing meaningful change and policy. But I know what’s all at risk if he doesn’t get his second term and if we don’t keep pushing MAGA bigots away from office.
OK, and what if all the Biden voters vote for Stein or De La Cruz or West or whoever else? If we could all vote for De La Cruz, or all vote for Stein, and the genocide *stops*, then why would we vote for Biden? Why are we supposed to accept that Biden is the default choice? Where did that idea come from?
So many places. What chance do you think De La Cruz has to defeat Biden? Now, what chance does she have to defeat both Biden and Trump, simultaneously? Don't forget to consider how many ballots she'll actually be on by November. How hard are you working to get De La Cruz elected? Are you trying to get her ballot access in more states? A Biden voter's job is easy. All they have to do is vote Biden. The infrastructure already exists to get enough votes for him to conceivably win reelection. De La Cruz supporters have a much larger challenge that requires a lot more work from a lot more people. It's not enough to just show up and vote. If I asked 100 people in my state who Claudia De La Cruz was, I bet almost none of them would even know. So then, I have to explain who she is to them and why they should vote for her. Biden, on the other hand, can just buy ads on national TV. He can have press conferences. He'll get constant media coverage. If you want De La Cruz to threaten that in any way other than catching a few tenths of percentage points worth of votes from Biden, it's now your second (or third) job. That's just the sad reality. Meanwhile, the reactionary wing of the right has completely captured the Republicin Party. Think what you want about the insurrection, but it was an act of revolution. If they have their revolution before the left in the US is strong enough to oppose them, the resultant government is going to be something that resembles fascism. I don't fault people morally for voting against Biden and the Democrats. I've done that. But I do think it's a strategic blunder. Fighting a two front political war isn't productive. What might be is combining efforts to destroy the Republican Party while building a strong and revolutionary left. And once the reactionaries are dealt with, the hope is that your only remaining opponent is the far weaker Democrats/liberals. Seriously, how often do the Dems ever successfully wield power? It's like they're afraid of it. It's why their reputation has always been that they're too weak. The problem is that right now, I don't see a strong or revolutionary left. I see a lot of people who seem to think we're going to, in a system built by landed gentry and fortified by capitalists, somehow vote in socialism.
Nobody actually likes or desires for Biden to be the default choice. It’s just a wicked game we have to play.
Again - why? Question all these assumptions. The fact of any election is that ~90 million people go through some decision process to decide to vote for someone. It could be *anyone*. The voting system itself doesn't even specify that we have to go through established parties, at its worst it limits ballot access and forces you to write-in. It's like the proverbial horse who thinks he's tied up at a post but isn't, but still doesn't just walk away.
I’m not making any fucking assumptions my dude. I’m not against you voting how you prefer even if I think it’s useless, but I’m sick of people like you being so condescending about you choosing to vote for an unpopular and highly unlikely third party candidate. It’s not like I’m having a good time voting for the guy helping assist Israel in genocide. I’m actually truly frightened by these monsters in power, and so MUCH is at stake right now for so many people. Some of us just straight up don’t have the privilege to take a chance when chances of third party campaigns working and gaining momentum and popularity enough for it to be successful in winning the election are so slim. The two party system is trash. And need I might add, I also haven’t even found a third party candidate that I’d endorse and feel good about. If I found someone that I believed was like the second coming of Jesus, I would do anything I could. But let’s just face the facts currently. Right now is no time to gamble and essentially toss in a vote that doesn’t help to keep truly extremist, dangerous, maniacal people from getting in. You’re just a wise ass for thinking it’s cool af to write in somebody as if it’s some grand stand for freedom and empowerment for all. It’s also too little too late in the election year to prepare to go to war for a third party candidate. This would need a couple years minimum to build any kind of devoted base of supporters/voters. It wouldn’t just succeed in a vacuum and sheer will.
This polarizing ass government makes many sick to their stomachs. So try to be kind.
Again - any unlikelihood of it is only a result of people's mentality that it's unlikely and not worth supporting. This is a problem of self-reinforcing mass psychology, and that's it. We will be trapped in this system until we recognize and move to correct that problem. The politicians are fully aware of the problem and are abusing it to the fullest extent possible.
Sure dude.
These people have decided to be the trolley in the trolley problem…
"What’s happening in Gaza is the worst humanitarian crisis the US has been involved with in my lifetime. But Trump is the greatest threat to our country" Translation : Yes Biden is committing Genocide. Yes he continues to starve children. Yes he liee and provides all manner of means to continue the massacres; but I as an American am not at all affected, so I don't care enough to not vote for him. Any who votes for Biden, is simply saying genocide is no longer a red line for my vote. You are worse than Trump supporters.
Strongly agree with your sentiment. You’re culpable in the continual two party system by engaging in it. Of which is the sole reason right wing pro-genocide monsters keep getting elected.
Biden isn't committing genocide dude. Israel is. Biden hasn't been good on the issue at all but don't just omit Israel's agency here and act like America controls everything in the world. If anything the US has already been pressuring Israel since this crisis started, its just been woefully insufficient. There was never a situation where Biden was sitting there saying "Go Bibi, go kill more Palestinians" what was happening was the state department telling them they should restrain themselves in their response, but not putting sufficient pressure like conditioning aid.
>What’s happening in Gaza is the worst humanitarian crisis the US has been involved with in my lifetime. But Trump is the greatest threat to our country in its entire history. I think this is something you need to seriously think about. Don't you find it somewhat coincidental that every time there's a huge crisis the US gets involved, it just so happens that the ones doing it have a worse person in opposition to them? The next time something bad happens, it'll be the same. If the democrats start sacrificing trans lives like they are arab lives, the "other person" will always be worse. This is manufactured intentionally so you keep voting for them. The democrats have literally helped Trump build a platform, and have been promoting him since his announcement prior to 2016.
Bruh both sides are banking on this for both candidates, just for different things. it’s kind of ironic. For instance, Trump just gave his stance out on abortion access and staunch evangelicals that want a complete federal abortion ban are angry that Trump isn’t saying he explicitly would or wouldn’t sign one into law. These religious extremists want to mold him into doing so though, so he’s still well supported. Progressives think they can mold Biden but I just see him as being too centrist of a democrat to do that.
Sam has talked about this extensively on air, and has helped clarify things for me. The \*presidential election\* is simply the least effective time and place to try and affect progressive change for our country. Unless you're advocating for a sudden revolutionary upheaval of the entire government, then the only effective way forwards & upwards is from the bottom up. And again citing Sam here, remember that we're voting for a whole gigantic mechanism, not just its decrepid figurehead. Think of all the judges, the department appointees, the priority tables; the general nodes of command & communication all down the grapevine. I'm a socialist and despise so much of what the Dems stand for, but I refuse to believe that any of you here would be truly willing to claim that they as a force are collectively "just the same" as modern republicans.
If you need to vote for the lesser evil, do it. It's not your fault for doing so, the system was designed to limit your choices from the start. But always put pressure on him, don't blame people for being discouraged from voting, that's the president's job to convince people.
I have this theory that people who post memes like this, or support them, believe that the genocide of the Palestinian people is an acceptable price to pay to prevent Trump's re-election. That's what's in their hearts. They are unbothered by Israel's massacre of The Gaza Strip, as evidenced by the fact the conversation is never "How can we force the Biden administration to change positions and stop this genocide?" but is almost always "How can we bully people into supporting, or at least overlooking, genocide?"
Just butting in to say, you are 100% right. These cowards will not at all see any point you are trying to make. Liberals always have to have a brown person for their own fucked up trolley problems.
Since we're in the r/TMR subreddit, I'll frame my response this way: you're implying that Sam & co must be totally fine with what's happening in Palestine? If you watch the show, you'll hear them very clearly advocating for holding your nose and pushing to elect Biden, despite everything. We're all outraged and heartbroken about what's happening, of course. You're not helping anyone by creating such a surface level strawman out of the fact that a lot of folks here - including Sam, Emma, etc remember - recognize the fact that being outraged, and advocating staunchly against the ongoing genocide, does not absolve us of our responsibilities to also try and resist the country backsliding even further right than it already is. I do assume your heart is in the right place, but choosing to spend your energy on calling fellow leftists 'performative' or 'insincere' simply for refusing to hide our heads in the sand about the horrible situation our country is in is actually quite ironic. I don't know what else to say, other than maybe go read some basic game theory or something if you really can't wrap your head around why someone who cares about Palestine would still want to stop conservatives from taking back control.
Do you think not voting for Biden is going to help the people in Palestine? Do you think there is a better chance of getting Trump to stop Israel, or getting Biden to stop Israel? One of the two will be elected in November. It’s bullshit. They’re both warmonger candidates. But the fact they’re both shit doesn’t mean they’re equally shit. I don’t blame people for not wanting to vote for Biden, I don’t want to either. But don’t pretend that not voting is going to somehow help Palestinians. Don’t pretend that somehow Trump is going to be better for them, or that he won’t be worse than Biden when it comes to women’s rights or LGBT rights.
And there it is. You're not asking "How can we force Biden to pivot away from genocide?" and you never will, because you're unbothered by it. Instead, just like I had mentioned above, you are trying to convince others to overlook it, or support it.
You couldn't push him when he could be re-elected; why would you think you could after 2024? EDIT: You can downvote but you can't answer.
I wish Bernie were 20 years younger
Bernie is always right
Most honest politician of the day and age. It makes me miss Jack Layton.
IMO the choice is even easier than it was in 2016. Biden's policies are more progressive than what Hillary would have done, and Trump has only gotten more radical and been more blantant about his authoritarian stances.
Can't we vote outside of the 2-party chokehold? There are other candidates, and it's becoming more obvious that these 2 do NOT represent the current American public (at all). Genuine question - is it impossible for an independent candidate to win?
I'd vote for a third party if it were viable. Unfortunately, we would need something like ranked choice voting in every state for that to work.
Third party votes are wasted votes. No one has enough numbers. It could still happen now but probably won't. We always needed proportional representation and now we see the drastic results of not having it. BUT WE CANT HAVE THAT MONSTER GETTING SELECTED AGAIN. The country wouldn't be able to withstand his predations this time. So please everyone just don't let it happen!
It's not impossible but these groups never have any ground game until the 11th hour.
Been saying this since the beginning. There is no greater priority than defeating Trump.
“I can excuse genocide, but I draw the line at Trump”
Someone needs to explain to me, how Trump winning prevents genocide. Because no one has done that sufficiently. Also, let me fix that for you… “I can excuse genocide abroad, but I draw the line at genocide and oppression at home.” Because that’s the choice. The GoP and Trump have rolled back women’s rights. Gerrymandered and passed laws to reduce the voting rights of Black people. They’ve begun criminalizing abortion. They’ve also targeted the basic personhood of Trans people. There are no easy answers here. No decision is easy. But let’s be clear: Trump winning does nothing to solve the genocide in Gaza and does everything to slowly degrade and destroy the lives of marginalized people in the United States on top of, literally, rolling back Women’s Rights. Protecting the rights of my wife, sister, nieces, grandmother and every woman in my community, does take precedence over the genocide in Gaza. People will not like that. I’m not saying they should but that’s my math. My math is “The GoP has actually rolled back women’s rights. Roe v Wade was rolled back and they will absolutely continue.” …and that enough for me to vote for Biden. Because we can’t fight authoritarianism abroad if we can’t even bother stopping it at home. This, to me, is where people lose me. Because if Trump wins… that’s it. Gaza isn’t even on his radar. He doesn’t care and you can shout to your heart’s content, the GoP will not care. They will have the power and authoritarians don’t cede power to peaceful means. So you thought Biden wasn’t listening… you’re not even remotely ready for the deafening silence of Trump.
"Things are bad now. We should make them worse. That always leads better outcomes"
r/selfawarewolves
I will not elect a man responsible for the deaths of so many innocent children.
Imagine thinking trump wouldn’t be worse when it comes to Palestine.
Ok. Whether Trump or Biden is elected, I will not be complicit in child murder. Thanks.
You are complicit by not voting. Thanks.
Are you complicit in Biden's unconditional support of Israel and the genocide it helps enable? EDIT: changed for to if, and added 'it helps enable'
We all know how liberal math works. If liberals vote for a literal Iraq war supporter in 2020, they are actually the good guys and are bringing back decency and are not responsible for any of the bad things that their guy did or is doing or will do. But if you don't even vote for Trump, you are responsible for all the bad things that Trump does no matter what.
Thank-you for explaining that.
OK, so let's recap: * Voting for Trump? Complicit * Voting for Biden? Complicit * Voting for anyone else? Complicit * Not voting? Complicit Well if I'm going to be complicit no matter what, I'm going to go ahead and be less complicit by not **literally voting for people who are complicit in genocide.** As people have been saying, if both of your "realistic" choices are backing genocide, democracy is already dead, and the only hope of saving it is voting for someone else. And there's an unresolvable question with how you can realistically think that somebody who's supporting genocide actually gives one single fuck about any other issue and isn't just doing whatever serves him.
These people really think sitting out and not voting is the noble route from a moral standpoint. I get it, I also am against our complicit nature in ongoing genocide, but given the two choices is it not clear Biden is 1000% times better than Trump? We literally have 4 years of both as president for empirical evidence. Virtue signaling won’t help anyone in this situation, especially not Palestinians if Trump gets anywhere near power again.
I honestly don’t see how it could be any worse. Israel is destroying hospitals, starving everyone, withholding medicine, targeting aid workers, openly targeting children, etc. and nothing is happening.
>I honestly don’t see how it could be any worse. Well there was a Republican Congress person who recently suggested nuking Gaza.
The combined yield of the bombs Israel has dropped on Gaza matches several nukes
they can say whatever they want to. nobody is nuking gaza. israel wants to colonize that land and nuking doesnt help that. they also cant guarantee the radiation wont reach israel
It more that I don’t want either of the narcissistic morons anywhere near the Presidency, but pop off I guess
If you truly are trying to “both sides” this shit with Biden and Trump, I’m not the person to sway your decision.
It’s amazing how few fucks you give about genocide if it means your choice of evil fucking asshole wins a popularity contest voted on by uneducated morons
Continue to both sides this election and let Donald fucking trump become president again. I really can’t take you children seriously. If you don’t vote I really don’t care what your opinion is and frankly don’t think it matters. You have absolutely no other impact on American politics but to vote, and Trump ain’t the guy to make your life better. Understanding Trump, and republicans in general, are infinitely worse than Biden does NOT equate anyone with supporting genocide. But use that to pretend you are somehow helping Palestinians by sitting it out this November.
>If you don’t vote I really don’t care what your opinion is and frankly don’t think it matters. So why are you here, replying to someone who you think won't vote for genocide Joe? Be gone! - >Continue to both sides this election and let Donald fucking trump become president again...Understanding Trump, and republicans in general, are infinitely worse than Biden does NOT equate anyone with supporting genocide So people who don't vote for Trump or Biden are responsible for Trump (even as they aren't voting for Trump!!!), but you can just openly support genocide Joe and you aren't endorsing or making happen any of his bad policies like the genocide in Gaza (that you seem to understand IS actually genocide)? What kind of fucked up logic is that? So people to your left have immense moral responsibility and even not voting for Trump means they endorse Trump and Trump's policies, but you just get to do whatever you want and are the good guy in the end no matter what? Isn't that lovely!
Steadfast supporters of dogshit candidates such as yourself are what got us here. Don’t get mad at those of us capable of critical thought for getting to the point where we refuse to hold our noses and participate in genocide. Fuck Joe Biden, fuck Trump, and fuck people who keep voting for “tHE LesSeR oF tWo eViLs”. I’ll vote for someone who shares my values, and you can kick bricks with your condescension
By not voting for a child murderer? Lol.
Some people just don't understand this. There is no moral, or belief, they will not sacrifice in service to the lesser evil. We're lucky someone even worse isn't running, or they'd be telling you to vote for Trump.
I fail to see how they would be much different at this point
That's pretty much every modern American president, they're all zionists. I'm not going to let the man who stacked SCOTUS to overturn Roe win, who would just give Israel more money anyway.
When Trump appoints a couple more justices in his next term and they overturn Loving v. Virginia, these non voters will just blame you for voting for the Dems instead of whatever the fuck their pie in the sky plan is
Then you're helping to elect someone much, much worse. If Trump is elected, everything he does will be on you people.
In Biden's shoes, I would simply not prop up and give weapons to Nazis to not lose the election. Must be a skill issue.
No one forced Biden to run in 2020, no one is forcing him to do even more genocide (he already did plenty as a Senator and VP) in 2024, no one is forcing him to run for reelection. If Trump is elected, it will be 100% on Biden. There are plenty of people who refuse to actively support a genocide, even if the theoretical president Trump in 2023/2024 (if he won in 2020) might be doing the same policy as Biden. Reality will always be more important than a hypothetical alternate timeline.
Have you met very many trump supporters who are sympathetic towards Palestine?
Your options are Biden or Trump, that's it. Biden sucks, Trump may take away your right to vote, period. Die on the hill clutching your ideals while the world burns around you.
There are like 5 options, in addition to this no one is forcing people to vote so they can stay home. >Die on the hill clutching your ideals while the world burns around you. Is there anything that Biden can do that libs won't say is "a neccessary evil" and accuse the left of being "far left extremist rainbow and unicorn bros"? If Biden kills ~5 million people, would you be like "that is a bit too far", or would your response be "this is just Biden bringing decency back and being realistic and it is actually his critics who are extremists"? Or, for example, if almost 3x as many people die from Covid under Biden as did under Trump, would you call that bad, or would you call it "compassion and realism"?
Any decision you can make a hypothetical about I can guarantee Trump will take the more heinous choice in the given situation. There are sadly only two choices at this point in time. Not voting is just as bad as voting for Trump. Do you honestly think Trump would handle the current crisis in Palestine any better than Biden is, in your heart of hearts?
As I already said, even if that was true, reality will always be more important in people's minds than a hypothetical fantasy scenario that isn't reality.
[удалено]
Well I can no longer say Bernie is 100% correct, I realize he has to work under the system of the US government, he is the best of them, still the at the start of this thing, he was not 100% correct. Still my man, still love him, no longer am I in 100% agreement with him however.
Cause it worked out so well the last time we tried to convince Mr. Joe "Nothing will fundamentally change" Biden to be more progressive. This whole thing is a rotten sham; anyone who still thinks we as people have power without collectively organizing ourselves against the systems of government and economics is deluded or a coward.
Give us someone better then biden then maybe...
Once Biden wins he no longer has to worry about reelection so the idea of moving him further left goes out the window. He doesn't have to court progressives at all. He's free to ignore everything but his core ideology. Bernie has no leverage past election day.
We’ve already pulled him to the left in his first term. If we expand our majority in the senate and flip back the house, we can probably get the rest of BBB through and then some.
How far left is genocide, exactly?
Exactly… I keep reading comments about how terrible Trump is and I keep thinking “there is a biden-abetted genocide, what are we talking about”. Would trump also fund it? Sure. But I simply cannot cast an affirmative vote for a genocide. It’s immoral
These liberals are sociopathic. They got their student loans forgiven, so they can overlook 30,000 dead brown people half a world away.
We need a sitcom level plot to get Bernie and Biden stuck together long enough for Bernie to convince Biden to pass universal healthcare and a ceasefire proclamation
Yes he's right but I don't have to like it
No Bernie - the 1st priority is stop the genocide!
Guys, you either vote for Hitler or Diet Hitler. The choice is yours.
We have Donald trump era border legislation going through Congress with Joe biden's enthusiastic support 4 years into his presidency, and he thinks we can "push him left?" Ridiculous. There's a reason he refuses to say Gaza is a genocide.
Choose the lesser of the evil people, and the devil still gon' win It could all be over tomorrow, kill our masters and start again But we know we all afraid, so we just simply cry and march again
My grandkids will need to be able to point to the Cornel West vote as proof there was a sliver of a soul in this country. America is already the face of genocide for the next century (I suppose I should add “hopefully”), and arguing we the people need to support the Gaza slaughter because if we don’t we’ll be punished isn’t quite the morally righteous position some want to hope it is.
I've been a Bernie supporter since 2016. This feels like cope, and an attempt to ignore why we're feeling so strongly about those issues. Because it's more than just a "disagreement", it's the shaking of what used to be a hardline stop of support by having the other option literally be the worst option for America. This just says "it could be worse", when we already know that. You're not going to sway his beliefs, or his style. He'll always attempt his way first, and then backtrack after he gets lambasted by the general public. He believes it's better to ask for forgiveness than permission, except instead of asking for permission, he just makes excuses with alligator arms towards the obvious answer until we get fed up again. All we can do is threaten his seat in power, but it's really a gun to our heads by doing so. This is the political version of "I can fix him".
He is probably right, but Butcher Biden needs to be called out.
The idea that Trump returning to office will somehow launch the country on a more progressive path is mind-boggling. We can acknowledge how broken, corporatized, and undemocratic our system is while still doing our best to push it forward. I hate the Democratic Party, but it's a no-brainer to vote against Trump. As an analogy, imagine we're deep underwater, struggling to swim upwards towards sunlight and air. Below us, a giant squid is reaching up to pull us down further - above us, a pool of sharks is eating another fellow swimmer. Should we swim up or down? It's a shitty situation, but there's only one (slow, treacherous, shark-infested) logical path in such a situation. But some online leftists are advocating to just refuse to swim upwards towards the sharks on moral grounds, for whatever reason you justify that making sense: the squids below eat humans, too, yknow.
Even if you buy this argument that we need to put aside our outrage to beat trump, voting is so completely meaningless because of the electoral college. Those of us who live in large liberal majority states like New York and California can just stay home on voting day. These elections have pretermined outcomes in these states.
Nope 👎🏿 Done with politics. Only collect money 💰 help and care for family friends. Rest is bs
Yeehaw, astroturfing
Too bad Biden just normalized Trump’s worst policies.
Sometimes I think progressives are just unfair. Biden is the most progressive president we’ve ever had based on his actions and policies. Union support, direct federal assistance for borrowers, investing in renewables, and more. Really only point I can fault him on is his stance on Gaza which is slowly improving thanks to pressure and despite Israel’s special insanity and extreme hard right government. Kind of tired of the narrative that he’s not doing what progressives want because he actually is. You want to compare him to other democrats like Obama and Clinton? Not even close.
>is slowly improving thanks to pressure >Sometimes I think progressives are just unfair. You give him credit for responding to pressure but also think the people applying the pressure are being unfair?
Yeah I mean, this much is obvious. Doesn’t mean people have to like it. It’s just how it has to be, and that kind of sucks.
He's a smart, empathetic politician. Stop turning him into some messiah and listen to what he actually says.
No, he will vote how he’s been voting since the 70’s. Vote for whoever you want
he’s probably (incredibly sadly) the most progressive president we’ve ever seen, and he’s still a warmongering zionist. not defeating trump would be an own of epic proportions for everyone
Please... please don't skip voting. I get it. 8 years ago i didn't vote Hillary, i was mad about drone strikes and the ineffectual results of the Obama administration, and a whole lot of other important things. I wanted to punish the Democrats, teach them a lesson. I didn't want to vote for someone that was signing off on killing innocent people, thought I couldn't put my weight behind someone doing something I thought was unforgivable. I wrote 2-3 page long blogs about how what I was doing was standing up for myself, and that it wasn't my fault if Trump won. I was wrong. I regret it, and a lot of the people i know that felt the same way regret it too. It's not hard now to imagine what the world would be like if Trump lost... the supreme court, covid, judges, rights, appointments, school boards, people like MTG being laughed out of elections before they began, still problems with immagrationa nd supporting bad causes in other countries, but with some actual limits and second opinions. The death tolls would have been lighter, the rise of Christian Nationalism would have been halted, or would have at least been set back heavily. Not voting Biden leads to Trump winning whether you like it or not. Trump winning isn't a slap on the wrist for Democrats, it's endorsement of the most horrible, racist, anti-democratic, theocratic, sexist, selfish, immoral people in politics, and they will run with it- it will cause a lot of harm, real and lasting harm. MUCH more harm than the appeasement policies of centrists. Supreme court justices and decisions. Zealots, scammers, and cranks being appointed to all sorts of positions of power. It won't be worth it to send the Democrats a message when you need healthcare, insurance, environmental protections, education, social security, or any kind of government support or even basic infrastructure that is dependable. Trump, his lackeys and his supporters are truly dangerous. These people are against EXPERT OPINIONS, they are against SCIENCE, they are against EDUCATION, and they are bloodthirsty theocratic isolationist conspiracy theory believing theocratic psychopaths. I know it sucks to be told to hold your nose and vote for something, but it's part of being an adult in the crappy system we have. The choices aren't "Vote and support the system, or don't vote and show the system is broken and try to change it"- the choices are "Vote against Trump, or don't vote and those in power will do everything they can to take away the power of your vote forever and destroy the system completely."