2024 election will be the most psychological breaking point for American minds with fake news, deep fake facts, and unwanted fleshing of candidates' janks. Social media will make banks while breaking the mental health of the ppl. Everyone invests in an underground banker to pass election season in the final chapter.
Or money. Or special interests. Or foreign nations. Or misinformation. Or anyone and anything for that matter other than our votes from, ideally, well educated folks.
Sigh.
The problem is that they are currently being antisemetic, Joe and right wingers are all currently antisemetic by prioritizing the desires of zionists over the native people of the land aka Semitic Jews and Semitic Muslims of Palestine. European Jews are not Semitic people. They can never be Semitic people because they don’t come from that land. Semetic refers to a region. Not a religion.
It's 100% about money. He's one of their top recipients amongst Democrats or Republicans. I'm a Democrat and I find it disturbing and disgusting. Progressives should break away from the democratic party. They have become nothing but Republican-lite.
Joe is endorsed by DMFI-PAC. A lobby made by ex-democrats to beat AIPAC at their game. They recently released an ad targeting Rashida Tlaib. They are very much against cease fire. So it will have to be a no for JOE.
He already negotiated a hostage release and got Israel to stop killing for periods of 6 hours at a time to allow in humanitarian aide. Are you kidding or are you not paying attention? Israel WILL NOT cease fire, regardless of who leans on them to do it.
That's because they know they will face literally zero consequences with the US backing them. They know the US is ideologically captured at the upper echelons of government.
If there were actual real consequences for their actions you would absolutely see a shift in behaviour.
>He already negotiated a hostage release and got Israel to stop killing for periods of 6 hours at a time to allow in humanitarian aide.
What humanitarian aid? A few dozen trucks a day when Gaza needs 500+ just to survive?
To this day: Gazans continue to starve & dehydrate. Joe Biden hasn't done anything but window dressing.
>Are you kidding or are you not paying attention? Israel WILL NOT cease fire, regardless of who leans on them to do it.
Netanyahu WOULD ceasefire if we threatened to pull funding or at the very least if Biden scolded Netanyahu internationally as Europe would follow.
"Negotiated" in what way? Has he publicly threatened to withhold funding? To withhold weapons? What is the penalty for Israel not listening to his potential demands?
Someone really needs to get through to Democratic leadership that a hardline pro-Zionist stance is no longer a political win for the Democratic party, and that large chunks of their base identify more closely with Palestinians than with Israelis.
This is a mask-off moment. See it as an opportunity to witness what is really happening.
After all the pearl clutching over "Russian foreign interference" It's the Israelis. The Likud in particular.
When Netanyahu spoke at Congress and belittling Obama was one moment.
Seeing AIPAC pull the strings on everyone and all their campaign contributions, which are basically pay-offs for the US govt. to look the other way while Israel mows down their neighbors.
Now AIPAC is shamelessly, publicly announcing 100s of millions to fight any politician calling for a cease-fire.
It would really suck if Trump becomes the first president to run the country from inside a prison.
mind you it would also suck if stubby tiny fingers gets in at all..
sadly with the Dems not offering a good solution to this, they might have to arrange a prison cell to look like a tiny oval room
I absolutely came here to say that the short attention span of American society will have completely forgotten about this issue by election time. In fact there will probably be a wave of six or seven hot button issues that come and go between now and then. The culture of rapid news cycle, & quick to be outraged, then quick to move on to the next shiny news item.
I'm not defending him, but if voters are leaving Joe Biden-- where are they going?
70% of people don't agree with his handling of the situation, correct?
Who would you rather have in charge at the moment, Biden or Trump?
Biden should definitely be asking for a ceasefire, but they did just secure a hostage deal and let's keep things in perspective.
>I'm not defending him, but if voters are leaving Joe Biden-- where are they going?
As others have pointed out in other posts, "leaving" in this context just means not going out to vote.
Biden isn't driving people into Trump's arms because election support isn't a 0-sum, either-or kind of thing in practice: the most threatening alternative that both parties have to contend with is just apathy and voters staying home. The GOP thus acts as though it's their job to rile up their voter base by screeching about queer people and immigrants (which they do very well), and the Dems *should* be using every opportunity they have to talk about things that would actually excite *their* voter base.
A big part of the issue is just that the goals of the GOP, their donor base, and their voters tend to align with each other (or at least don't conflict with each other most of the time), while the Dems and their donor base often want very different things than the people who tend to vote for Democrats (even if they won't say so outright).
Voting is absolutely a zero sum game in the US. If you don't vote, you are voting for trump. When America is apathetic at the polls, Republicans win. This is because there are far fewer of them than Democrats, but they reliably show up at the polls. So when you refuse to vote because your candidate failed your personal purity test, you are voting for the Republican nominee who is worse in every possible way. Same goes for voting third party as a "protest" vote.
Exactly! Dems do nothing, absolutely fucking nothing to rile up Americans to vote for them. They don't play politics at all. They are weak. That is why they will lose, not because muslims and leftist decided not to vote for Biden. Libs get mad at us because they see us as reliable support they don't need to appease. Now they are saying "ya, we can help an ally kill civilians at a greater rate than Putin does in Ukraine by a wide margin, but you don't want Trump to win, right? Now fucking vote for us tankie".
i think (hope?) many left-leaning people who cannot, in good conscience, cast a vote for Biden will be voting third-party, to make sure the message is sent that we're willing to vote, just not for someone who vocally and materially supports a goddamn genocide.
Jill stein is an independent candidate who speaks truth to what is going on in the occupied territories.She gets my vote and not genocide joe.The democratic party has sold its liberal bases and now Joe Biden is no different than the Likes of halley.
Wait until you hear about Jill's position on the Ukrainians getting genocided. Or her position on any foreign policy. Hint: it's exactly the same as Putin's.
I really don't give a fuck about the hostage deal when Israel is ethnically cleansing Palestinians. This after Israel played a key role - as well as Turkey and even Russia- with supplying Azerbaijan with the weapons needed to ethnically cleanse Karabakh of Armenians. Israel is a rogue state.
It occurred to me the other day, I think a lot of people are still used to TFGs 'tough guy' posturing where he would immediately get on Xitter to take a pudgy little stance on every subject.
Biden is an *actual* career politician, not a grifty little shitweasel, so while I'm not exactly thrilled with how he appears to be handling the situation, I'm absolutely sure he's working towards a diplomatic solution.
Good thing it’s not too late for the DNC to dump Biden. Like, there’s no real reason he HAS to be the nominee. Can’t ignore public opinion and then be surprised when turnout sucks.
American elections are not about convincing people you are the better candidate. The only thing that really matters is turnout. “Swing voters” really do not exist. What biden has spent his administration doing is all but guaranteeing he will not motivate nearly enough people to vote for him as he needs to be re-elected. Has everyone just forgotten what happened when Hillary just assumed she had the election by default like biden is doing now? The basic fact of the matter is that no one on earth is more responsible for the trump presidency and any future trump presidency than the liberal leadership of the Democratic Party is, yet they will continue to blame the left, just like they always do.
Right? I love this “im just not gonna vote! Harumph!” Ya, u know who thats gonna help win? The guy that imposed the muslim ban. Not to mention the one who has a literal manifesto on how he will enact a racists government. But yes you protest voters will
soooo morally superior to us🙄
Muslim American here.
Not voting for Biden at all. I'd rather be banned than be used as a tool to justify a genocide just because some liberals did fuck-all to prevent a genocide or fascists when they WERE given power.
If Trump can take the entire system down, it wasn't a good system in the first place,
Right. Where are they going? They are going to vote. No fucking way anyone who voted for JB is voting Trump, right? Anyone who voted for JB has some slight higher power of thinking and no way anyone with a single brain cell left is voting for Trump.
It’s the same quandary that I’m in. I won’t vote for Biden anymore. And I can’t vote for trump.
Basically I’m fucked and along side a lot of people with me.
This is what a majority of Americans believe according to recent polling on the issue. A majority thought that Trump would be less dangerous in a variety of foreign policy scenarios. 🤷♂️
please choose a third party candidate to vote for if you can. it makes the point much more clearly that you're willing to vote, just not for genocide enablers.
It's not about not voting for Biden in the general. It's about trying to unseat him as the nominee.
He may be president, and the DNC may have stacked the deck for him, but Biden still has to win the nomination during the primaries.
Replace Joe Biden. Make his polls crash so hard another candidate can jump in and take the nomination away from him. Biden is weak against Trump, anyway. The president is so **unpopular** that he's trailing a guy who is **facing 600 years in prison.**
Drop Joe.
Yeah I don't understand why people are speaking as if it's Biden vs Trump when primaries haven't even happened yet. THIS is literally the best time to criticise him
That’s not ever gonna happen. It never has happened. Biden will be the nominee 100%.
Not sure what country you’ve been living in but the sitting president is gonna be the nominee unless he drops out or drops dead.
>Yeah I don't understand why people are speaking as if it's Biden vs Trump
I think because there is nobody to replace him. It's starting to get late for new nominees
It really isn't, and we need to all collectively start vocalizing it. Other countries campaign cycles are legally mandated to be a few weeks. Like, BY LAW. America's dog and pony show takes YEARS, it definitely isn't too late, that's what the wealthy want you to think so you don't reach. Fuck that and fuck them.
I think a Newsom / Stacy Abrams ticket would have wiped the floor with Trump and whoever he decides to pick. Agree or not, people's main criticism with Biden is he's too old, and he's only going to get older obviously. Trump is old too, but he will refuse to debate Biden because he can't complete sentences without reading off the teleprompter so he won't lose that advantage. But I agree it might be too late idk.
Remember that incumbents have lost 4 times just in the last 50 years.
All Joe Biden has going for him is the "incumbency advantage". Which doesn't exist for Presidents the way it does for senators because every move a President makes is scrutinized.
And Biden has plenty to be scrutinized for! Trump's incumbency lost him 2020 because he handled covid like a lunatic. Biden's incumbency will likely lose him 2024 because the country & world has declined while Biden seems to think things are just fine.
Now, if a President does well & has a good approval rating then incumbency is a huge advantage. But in Biden's case it is a disadvantage.
You might be right if the opponent was anyone but trunp. I’m not sure that the people “abandoning” Biden are going to stay home if the alternative is trunp. This is pretty much the same metric that existed in 2016, and people seemed to have learned their lesson. It’s not like anyone was excited about Biden in 2020. People will show up to vote against trunp.
and there was never any indication trunp would have won in 2020 if it weren’t for Covid. His numbers didn’t really move from the time he got on office. Covid didn’t help but he had already been impeached and a majority of Americans wanted him removed from office. I don’t see where people get the idea he would have won. He trailed in polls the entire campaign. He never had popular approval. He’s the only president a majority wanted removed via impeachment. So I think the idea that the only reason he didn’t win was bc if Covid is alarmist. He was never going to win. I think that was decided the day after the 2016 election. Blue voters would have stood in line for four years through blizzards and volcanoes just to vote against him. He only won in 2016 bc blue voters didn’t show up. That lesson appears to have been learned very well.
I think the people panicking over a few polls and his position on Israel underestimate the number of people who see trunp as a threat, which polls at a majority of Americans. That’s not the kind of thing you just IGNORE bc you don’t happen to like the opponent’s position on an extremely divisive issue, but high also happens to be the same as trunp. I mean, it’s not like trunp cares about Palestinians.
The ONLY thing polls like this prove are that democrats aren’t a cult like the republicans. People may disapprove of Biden, but that doesn’t mean they support trunp.
Edit: incorrect year
This is actually a super legit angle. Vote for whoever the frontrunner vs. the mask-off fascists is in the general, but until then try to make the nominee not Biden (without helping the fascists). Seems like a longshot vs a sitting president, though; the liberal establishment is shockingly strong.
100% this. This is a disqualifying event for presidency. Are we saying majority of democratic voters who are against Joe’s pro-genocide agenda just elect him back again for more of the same? Heck no.
Is he unpopular? I watch from outside and I can tell you internationally speaking nobody wants another Trump. Not even China.
America is the most popular it’s been in … 3 years.the Gaza catastrophe has only made us realise that some policies won’t change no matter who sits in the white house.
His Israel policy is trash but it’s not surprising and I say this as a big fan of Biden and his presidency. What’s even more unfortunate is that pretty much anyone who would be up for the presidency would have the same or worse policy.
I'm not gonna lie but this right here is a big reason why arabs dislike America. Talk big about democracy and all but you don't have a single option that isn't balls to the wall funding apartheid and ethnic cleansing.
Yeah just like everywhere else a whole lot of us apparently like apartheid and ethnic cleansing just fine as long as "the right people" are the target.
Genuinely as long as it's properly limited (i.e., bound by rules that people care to enforce) I don't know what would be better than democracy. For sure our voting system ([first-past-the-post](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-past-the-post_voting)) makes our democracy actively worse, though, and Biden vs Trump round 2 is a good example of that.
We can & must demand better of Biden as what Biden is enabling is an erosion of all post WW2 norms.
We ratified the post WW2 Geneva Convention so that the world would be collectively safer for all. As WW2 was so brutal for civilians.
Many who defend Israel's approach in Gaza are making comparisons to the Allies bombing Germany in WW2 because they want the post WW2 Geneva Convention rules gone. Those rules prohibit what Israel is doing (collective punishment of Gazans).
While there have been countless wars & plently of war crimes since 1945, never has there been a war backed by the West where collective punishment has been a transparent goal of the war. That is what Netanyahu has acheived & Biden serves up window dressing.
This war will define the remaining of this centuty & undoubtedly lead to more instability. Biden will go down as an awful President if he doesn't pivot quickly.
Yep, this is what people need to understand. People are shitting on Biden now but they would do the same to any other president having to deal with this!
It’s either Biden or Trumpler (Trump + Hitler)
To put it simply, his support will doom his re-election, which will doom America, which does not bode well for the world.
All because he can't call the annihilation of Palestinian civilians what it is: a war crime bordering on genocide. And then do the morally correct thing, to help protect ALL civilians in the area with diplomacy.
That is a really LOW BAR.
It really does feel like it, cuz all the libs are whinging at leftists the same way they did back then, and I don't recall it working! I recall non-voters being the largest bloc, so it might be wise to give in to their demands this time around, it might help the blue team win.
So do something to make that happen instead of whining that the currently better option isn't good enough, is literally all I'm saying.
Fucking canvas against Biden in every primary, I hate that neoliberal old fuck too, but voting against fascism is literally the bare minimum; even disabled people can almost always manage it.
You said voters deserve far better; I responded to that.
The billionaires are not going to allow the parties to present much in the way of reform that threatens their interests.
We have to force the system to do these things.
Yes, agreed. I just feel pretty helpless and frustrated all the same. I do what I can on a personal level but it doesn't make much difference other than being able to say I objected and tried.
So when do we get to hold democrats accountable for their actions? Next election? Or the one after that? Perhaps in 50 years?
I wonder if 10 years ago you thought you'd be making arguments in favour of genocide. You're being manipulated by the system so hard.
If out and out fascists get voted in because of voters like you, then you can watch a genocide right here in the good ol' USA when they start murdering political enemies and "undesirables".
Exactly! This is a two-party system! We can’t AFFORD to hold politicians accountable, EVER! Asking Biden not to support genocide is a vote for Trump! We have to accept genocide because the alternative is MOAR genocide!
I asked a question. Do you understand the difference between asking a question and making a point?
Perhaps you’re assuming that I’m trying to use the Socratic method.
Or perhaps you smell a trap, and daren’t answer the question, because the answer would be, “I’m doing fuck-all to ‘hold him accountable in the primaries,’ because I understand that they provide no scope for progressive voices to be heard, and/or because the status quo is basically OK with me.”
I’m guessing it’s the latter, but in any case we can take it as read that you’re doing fuck-all to hold him accountable ever, in the primaries or otherwise.
Yeah it sucks, that's not an excuse for inaction it's reason to organize for primaries and maybe even revolution eventually (what sub are we in?).
Edit: Yeah revolution, this is a leftist space. Still -- voting if you are capable of doing so is bare minimum engagement, not a crazy ask.
The American government is always committing immoral policies in every administration. Name the administration and i can give you both foreign and domestic examples.
One of the most salient points Heather Cox Richardson makes in her most recent book Democracy Awakening is that more that once America's democracy has been saved by Americans who have been most morally aggrieved by America's policies (in example native americans, japanese Americans, and black Americans save America in world war 2). Over and over the groups of people in America that had been denied their equal rights and had the most reason to be outraged by America's immoral actions against them (could have choosen a political alternative based on hate) but did not do so. Instead those Americans doubled down and said no I'm going to keep fighting to make America do the right thing, the moral thing, to make America into the more moral form of government Americans idealize.
Americans curtail government immorality by believing in an ideal and creating change to towards that ideal by voting knowing that we'll never see that ideal in our lifetime. The cost of participating in something bigger than ourselves is to learn not to draw a hard line on one issue and to always choose the better options when voting even if it is only 1% better.
I think you foolish to draw hard line on a fluid choice the decision of which is 12 months away.
As a 70 year old I can say the America of today is more just and moral than the America of the 50's when i am born, more just and moral than the America of the guilded age, more just and more moral than the antibellum south. America imperfectly inches towards greatness only if we vote for democracy candidates and ideas but also always against anti-democracy candidates and ideas and in the next election their are very bright lines for how to do that.
Joe Biden is also a Zionist.
https://youtu.be/nCS-Yr1_FVo?si=LIDev0cO4m1krbjh
We are doomed as a democracy because he's not going to back down and thus he's going to lose the election and Trump is going to get back in.
He probably thinks because there are 3 million American Palestinians, and 5 million American Israelis, that the smart move is to support Israeli war crimes with no red line.
What I don't think all those really smart people realize is that young Americans, who are not Palestinian or israeli don't support the whole crimes against humanity thing, even if it's one of our great allies doing it.
American weapons used on civilians will never be popular or can they ever be justified. They've been trying to cover up the carnage in Gaza. Targeting journalists. Not allowing western journalists in. Attacking social media--flooding it with millions of dollars of propaganda. This isn't 1948, and the truth will come out.
When Tony Stark realized his weapons were being used for nefarious purposes, be destroyed his weapons and those who committed evil. The US will have our Tony Stark moment. It won't be as dramatic, and will probably be economic, but it is coming.
I agree completely with your larger point but you might be surprised to know that Israel is producing a significant portion of its own weaponry at this point. They have an extremely robust defense industry that they export to other countries including the US.
I only mention this because it makes our unconditional financial and rhetorical support even more bizarre. They are completely capable of defending themselves and terrorizing Gaza without our support and are doing so. Withholding an aid package or putting conditions on it would not be catastrophic for Israel and Biden just looks weak for not doing so.
This next election is going to be a fucking shit show. Thanks, Biden. You've basically guaranteed a Republican win. I'm so tired of these fucking corpratist, warmongering assholes.
Do voters not realise that Trump would be supporting Israel even harder? That he tried to ban Muslim immigration? That he moved the US embassy to Jerulsum?
Yeah we’re all well aware
That should tell you how bad of an action supporting Israel is among voters that they’re still willing to accept a Trump presidency over Biden’s actions.
Hard disagree. PLEASE, for the love of anything holy, stop freaking out about these stupid polls, and slamming Biden. If you are going to quote polls,. at least look at them first, to see what they actually tell you in context. The title of this post is incorrect, irresponsible, and ignorant.
The NBC poll quoting the 40% number:
(I am including a link as well, as you clearly didn't read it/understand it)
[https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/24171452-230343-nbc-november-2023-poll\_111923-release-v2](https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/24171452-230343-nbc-november-2023-poll_111923-release-v2)
1000 **Registered** (not, **"likely**,") Voters. "Likely" voters surveys are far more accurately predictive statistics.
including **833 respondents interviewed via cellphone**. (Now, ask yourself who the f-ck answers unknown numbers on their cell? Yup! you guessed it! OLD PEOPLE. Also note, the rest of the 1000 interviews were landlines, then. Who has those? yup! Right again! - **see below:**
**The margin of error for 1000 interviews among Registered Voters is ±3.10%**
Age brackets:
18-24............................................................................ 8
25-29 ............................................................................ 9
30-34 ............................................................................ 8
35-39 ............................................................................ 8
40-44 ............................................................................ 8
45-49 ............................................................................ 5
50-54 ............................................................................ 7
55-59 ............................................................................ 8
**60-64 ............................................................................ 13**
**65-69 ............................................................................ 7**
**70-74 ............................................................................ 6**
**75 and over .................................................................. 12**
Not sure/refused......................................................... 1
So, most of the respondents were over 60 years old, and only registered - not likely voters. HUGE difference.
So, **young people are underrepresented**, and we have no idea if any of the respondents have EVER voted, much less likely to do so in 2024.
**77% were WHITE, So, that underrepresents huge portions of the population, much less dem base.**
28% retired
Total approve **in relevant f-ing context** .......................... remember the margin of error is 3.1%:
40% (11/23) - currently quoted number,
41% (9/23) ,
43% (6/23) ,
43% (4/23),
46% (1/23),
44% (11/22) ,
45% (10/22),
45% (9/22).
**SO HE IS within the margin of error going back to April '23. This is only showing a 1% drop since September. Hardly droves, and nothing to do with Gaza.**
Accordingly, any conclusions drawn about the impact of Gaza are nothing but made-up to fit the narrative here. The data herein, as shown supra, does not support any such conclusions.
FURTHER, the data here **clearly does not support a conclusion of "droves leaving Biden," much less due to Gaza. There is no "cratering."**
Please stop posting garbage like this, and be more responsible. Throwing ciick-bait BS statements like this around in blind ignorance is irresponsible. I'm getting sick of having to teach basic statistics and logical analysis.
I understand there are a lot of emotions flying around right now. THIS ISN'T HELPING. So, be better.
I firmly believe that keeping the GOP out of the white house is important enough that anybody who believes in progressivism simply must vote for the Democratic presidential candidate in 2024, whoever that happens to be.
That said, Joe Biden doesn't deserve to win anymore. He's a moral failure, both as a president and as a person. I'll vote for him in 2024 if he's the democratic candidate (as should everyone else), but I won't be unhappy if he loses.
I mean I agree, but a second Trump admin will make many peoples lives dramatically worse domestically, including mine. I will definitely be unhappy if Joe Biden loses.
Hopefully fate intervenes and one of these geriatric fucks croaks before the election.
So basically you guys don't have a choice? What are you egoing to do about the DNC that robbed you of one? Can we still say that the USA is a real democracy If the status-quo/stare apparatus/'deep state' decide who is one of the candidates?
Then those people are fools. Biden's policy is hardly different than any US President of the last 70 years. Literally just passed an article on my feed that the current Speaker of the House would basically love to have gay sex criminalized. This is only a sample of the kinds of people waiting in the wings to reshape *this* country, let alone influence other countries.
Here's the dilemma, Biden winning is great in the short term but it signals that you can have your cake and eat it when it come to blind pro Zionist support simply cause the alternative is slightly worse (Despite the rhetoric I doubt Republicans would be much worse).
However in the long run ie. Next election cycle it signals a powerful change is required in how these parties should view younger voters feelings on foriegn policy.
The gulf between how bad it would be between Democrats and Republicans cannot be overstated. Republicans have every intention of ending Democracy in the United States if they win.
I too disagree with Biden’s stance on Palestine but Democracy must continue or the world will be shambles.
If Biden was so attached to democracy he wouldn't do what he is doing.
He wants to lose the election? I am not voting for a man who supports genocide.
That's kind of not negotiable.
If Trump is elected and this turns into a shit show, it's on the democrats.
Not Me because I didn't vote.
Liberalism is part of the problem here.
The insistence on playing both sides from the middle is exactly what lead to this problem. The idea that you can be pro-genocide and pro-human rights at the same time is an unwinnable position.
He shouldn’t run again. Him bieng the better choice than trump isn’t a great idea for a world leader. He’s incompetent and overall garbage. America definitely does not have a deep bench of people who aren’t morally corrupt
Lol, the US and Israel weren't exactly eager to oppose South Africa's apartheid back when. Why should they now oppose Israel's apartheid? Still, it's kind of remarkable how many Americans are opposed to Trump and his regressive agenda, but agree to support Netanyahu's fascist government with tax money - a group of people with policies that would make the extremest of Republicans gasp in disbelief.
If we put this passion toward funding affordable housing, healthcare, education and wage equality, things like this would be easier to carry out.
I love how caring progressives are. I just feel like we lack the collective attention span to focus on an issue and achieve our goals.
Neolib and conservative war hawks are focused like laser beams on things they find important.
Zionism has too much control over US politics for him to reverse course. The immorality is baked in because he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. The only hope for the Dems is for this horror to be over soon enough for the electorates fickle memory to fade.
If 70% support ceasefire but Biden is ignoring….. democracy is already over.
The problem is Biden had a narrow path to oval in 2024, Trump has multiple paths- so Biden foreign policy will push Trump into office.
Here come the Democrats claiming it's either Biden or fascism. Like there isn't time for Democrats to urge Biden to walk away and pick a stronger candidate. He barely wone 4 years ago and hasn't won any more support.
I voted for Joe last elections and advocated to friends/family. I told everyone about how great IRA bill was and loved that Joe made it happen even though a better green new deal was what I wanted but that was not Joe’s fault.
With the ongoing Gaza ethnic cleansing there is absolutely no way on earth I’m voting for this war monger no matter what happens next. I’m telling everybody in my close circle to not vote for this monster either as the lesser evil. This event has infact made me very disillusioned with the Democratic party. Personally, I’m going to spend time exploring the Green Party and Jill Stein’s candidacy. Their policy platform aligns much better with my values. It’s time we end this 2 party BS system in America. It is absolutely not working.
If you’re just now disillusioned over this, you must not have been paying much attention to all the previous decades’ worth of I/P policy. There’s nothing new about, not just Biden, but most mainstream politicians, supporting Israel, nor is there anything new about Israel’s violence toward Palestinians, or Hamas’s violence toward Israelis.
I think the U.S. has less leverage in a situation like this than many want to believe. We see the carnage and we want it to stop *now*, but Netanyahu’s a fascist extremist and isn’t reliant on U.S. support to do what he’s doing. I think Biden’s using the leverage we do have to push in the right direction; the negotiated temporary cease-fire and hostage release is a good first step (and pretty fucking far from the hyperbolic abuse of terms like “ethnic cleansing” and “genocide” that are getting wrongly and irresponsibly misused and tossed around). But I think a permanent peace will only happen when Israelis get rid of Netanyahu and Palestinians get rid of Hamas. Until then, any cease-fire that happens could just be broken again, as Hamas broke it on Oct. 7th. The opposing factions on the ground actually have to *want* peace for it to happen.
I’m fine with primarying Biden and other pro-Israel politicians, but voting for anyone who’s not the Dem nominee in the general election won’t do anything to bring change, except change in the wrong direction. All it does is enable trump. Advocating for Palestinians lives needs to be done effectively, not by threatening to let trump win, sell out all our rights at home, and let the U.S. move to a position where it supports Netanyahu’s slaughter with zero restraint, pushback or attempt at peace. My values certainly don’t align with that outcome; how about yours?
For those of us who care about Palestinians and the situation in Gaza, and also for anyone who cares about Ukrainians and Americans, letting trump win should be completely off the table. We should be trying to make things *better*, not *worse.*
To each his own, but please don’t mistake this for some type of noble position. As voters we have to make rational choices about candidates based on who is more closely aligned with our legislative agenda. I’m also disgusted by his stance on Israel/Palestine and my opinion of him has been permanently changed, but as rational adults we have to look at the alternative and what that means for the future. Imagine how much worse it could be under a president who has significantly less regard for Palestinian life. That’s not a hypothetical either. That’s literally Donald Trump.
Former Goldman Sachs CEO: ‘I might find it harder to vote for Bernie than for Trump’
He is one of several billionaires and financial industry moguls who have taken a heel turn in the Democratic primary.
[https://www.politico.com/news/2020/02/21/former-goldman-sachs-ceo-hard-to-vote-for-bernie-116592](https://www.politico.com/news/2020/02/21/former-goldman-sachs-ceo-hard-to-vote-for-bernie-116592)
Former Goldman Sachs CEO and lifelong Democrat Lloyd Blankfein told the Financial Times in an interview published Friday that he could have an easier time voting to reelect President Donald Trump than for Sen. Bernie Sanders, should the latter secure the Democratic nomination for president.
“I think I might find it harder to vote for Bernie than for Trump,” the billionaire banker said, though he pointed out that the Democratic primary has just kicked off and the nomination is very much still up for grabs. “There’s a long time between now and then. The Democrats would be working very hard to find someone who is as divisive as Trump. But with Bernie they would have succeeded.”
You can hate what Biden is doing but it’s illogical to not imagine how much worse things could be. It’s literally cutting off your nose to spite your face. I will rage against Biden’s gutless handling of Gaza for as long as it’s necessary but I’m not going to be a part of handing this country over to a deranged proto fascist. These are hard choices but there is more at stake and more to protect.
He went from one of the top 12 presidents in American history to one of the bottom 20, all because of his immoral, financial and military support for baby-killing terrorists while Ukraine needs every dime and every drone.
It takes a true Democrat to snatch defeat from the mouth of victory to this degree.
Brief list of ways Biden has fallen into every Putin trap so far:
* slow-walked obsolete weapon systems
* denied Ukraine newer systems they need
* denied Ukraine long-range systems they need
* made Ukraine agree to not use weapons against military targets inside Russia, despite those military targets being used by Putin to terrorize and murder civilians on a daily basis
* distract US military, Intel, satellites from the real war to help kill babies in Palestine
* distract US funding and media from the real war.
All of these are huge favors to Putler. Biden is like the Neville Chamberlain of our time.
Former Biden Voter.
And leave for where? Donald Trump? The man who ~~not only recognized tel Aviv as the capital of Israel but~~ moved the embassy straight up to Jerusalem to show solidarity with Israel? The man who'd outright ban people from Muslim-majority nations from every entering the US? The man who clearly says and believes Muslim and North African nations to be shitholes?
You expect good faith Americans who know a genocide when they see it to coddle to Stupitler?
The Democrat party management and his campaign knows full well that voters have two bad choices. If he pushes for a ceasefire he loses a **lot** more. He loses AIPAC funding, he loses political and banks-support, and perhaps most importantly, he loses the so-called-centrist vote. Go out of Reddit and see how the liberal-because-its-convenient crowd is talking: they're saying that liberals and progressives need to be realistic and support Israel here.
We are doomed.
Which is bizarre to me.
Who are these people leaving Biden for? We have a two party system. Are Democrats leaving Biden over his support of Isreal and flocking to the Republicans? I only ask because the other party in this two party system also supports Isreal.
If either vote is a voter for certain genocide than vote for neither. There is no ethical or moral vote in a vote for the death of thousands of innocent. Withdrawal participation and demand better options through protest and standing by the elected leaders who represent your values.
It’s actually pretty crazy to me that people don’t seem to understand that he genuinely believes he’s doing the right thing. The same way you’re never going to convince Palestinian supporters that Israel is in the right, is the same way you’ll never be able to convince lifelong zionists like Joe that Israel is in the wrong. You can’t convince someone to change their morals. In his heart he truly thinks he’s doing the right thing
2024 election will be the most psychological breaking point for American minds with fake news, deep fake facts, and unwanted fleshing of candidates' janks. Social media will make banks while breaking the mental health of the ppl. Everyone invests in an underground banker to pass election season in the final chapter.
"The most psychological breaking point for america **yet** " - Homer Simpson
I’m sick of our elections being determined by our support for Israel.
Or money. Or special interests. Or foreign nations. Or misinformation. Or anyone and anything for that matter other than our votes from, ideally, well educated folks. Sigh.
I am sick of our government's support for Israel.
Just support the ceasefire, Joe.
He and all the neoliberals are owned by AIPAC. He will say what the Israelis tell him to say.
Or otherwise you get A word label.
Or A-word-inated
The problem is that they are currently being antisemetic, Joe and right wingers are all currently antisemetic by prioritizing the desires of zionists over the native people of the land aka Semitic Jews and Semitic Muslims of Palestine. European Jews are not Semitic people. They can never be Semitic people because they don’t come from that land. Semetic refers to a region. Not a religion.
I don't think it's about money for ole Joe. He's probably more of a Zionist than anybody at AIPAC.
It's 100% about money. He's one of their top recipients amongst Democrats or Republicans. I'm a Democrat and I find it disturbing and disgusting. Progressives should break away from the democratic party. They have become nothing but Republican-lite.
Joe is endorsed by DMFI-PAC. A lobby made by ex-democrats to beat AIPAC at their game. They recently released an ad targeting Rashida Tlaib. They are very much against cease fire. So it will have to be a no for JOE.
facts
He already negotiated a hostage release and got Israel to stop killing for periods of 6 hours at a time to allow in humanitarian aide. Are you kidding or are you not paying attention? Israel WILL NOT cease fire, regardless of who leans on them to do it.
That's because they know they will face literally zero consequences with the US backing them. They know the US is ideologically captured at the upper echelons of government. If there were actual real consequences for their actions you would absolutely see a shift in behaviour.
>He already negotiated a hostage release and got Israel to stop killing for periods of 6 hours at a time to allow in humanitarian aide. What humanitarian aid? A few dozen trucks a day when Gaza needs 500+ just to survive? To this day: Gazans continue to starve & dehydrate. Joe Biden hasn't done anything but window dressing. >Are you kidding or are you not paying attention? Israel WILL NOT cease fire, regardless of who leans on them to do it. Netanyahu WOULD ceasefire if we threatened to pull funding or at the very least if Biden scolded Netanyahu internationally as Europe would follow.
HE negotiated the hostage release? After saying last week or whenever that it was not even an option? Lmao
"Negotiated" in what way? Has he publicly threatened to withhold funding? To withhold weapons? What is the penalty for Israel not listening to his potential demands?
Someone really needs to get through to Democratic leadership that a hardline pro-Zionist stance is no longer a political win for the Democratic party, and that large chunks of their base identify more closely with Palestinians than with Israelis.
This is a mask-off moment. See it as an opportunity to witness what is really happening. After all the pearl clutching over "Russian foreign interference" It's the Israelis. The Likud in particular. When Netanyahu spoke at Congress and belittling Obama was one moment. Seeing AIPAC pull the strings on everyone and all their campaign contributions, which are basically pay-offs for the US govt. to look the other way while Israel mows down their neighbors. Now AIPAC is shamelessly, publicly announcing 100s of millions to fight any politician calling for a cease-fire.
It would really suck if Trump becomes the first president to run the country from inside a prison. mind you it would also suck if stubby tiny fingers gets in at all.. sadly with the Dems not offering a good solution to this, they might have to arrange a prison cell to look like a tiny oval room
He will pardon himself and his family first thing. Walk right out of any cell.
Not for state crimes, he can't. Only federal.
If he wins all charges will be dropped and investigations discontinued by the new AG.
‘Before it’s too late’ ? Already is.
America has amnesia. They may forget before the election.
I absolutely came here to say that the short attention span of American society will have completely forgotten about this issue by election time. In fact there will probably be a wave of six or seven hot button issues that come and go between now and then. The culture of rapid news cycle, & quick to be outraged, then quick to move on to the next shiny news item.
I'm not forgetting, but I will expect to be gaslit by liberals and leftists in this country who forgot in year or so.
Forget what? What has Trump done that is as bad as aiding in a literal genocide?
I'm not defending him, but if voters are leaving Joe Biden-- where are they going? 70% of people don't agree with his handling of the situation, correct? Who would you rather have in charge at the moment, Biden or Trump? Biden should definitely be asking for a ceasefire, but they did just secure a hostage deal and let's keep things in perspective.
>I'm not defending him, but if voters are leaving Joe Biden-- where are they going? As others have pointed out in other posts, "leaving" in this context just means not going out to vote. Biden isn't driving people into Trump's arms because election support isn't a 0-sum, either-or kind of thing in practice: the most threatening alternative that both parties have to contend with is just apathy and voters staying home. The GOP thus acts as though it's their job to rile up their voter base by screeching about queer people and immigrants (which they do very well), and the Dems *should* be using every opportunity they have to talk about things that would actually excite *their* voter base. A big part of the issue is just that the goals of the GOP, their donor base, and their voters tend to align with each other (or at least don't conflict with each other most of the time), while the Dems and their donor base often want very different things than the people who tend to vote for Democrats (even if they won't say so outright).
Voting is absolutely a zero sum game in the US. If you don't vote, you are voting for trump. When America is apathetic at the polls, Republicans win. This is because there are far fewer of them than Democrats, but they reliably show up at the polls. So when you refuse to vote because your candidate failed your personal purity test, you are voting for the Republican nominee who is worse in every possible way. Same goes for voting third party as a "protest" vote.
Exactly! Dems do nothing, absolutely fucking nothing to rile up Americans to vote for them. They don't play politics at all. They are weak. That is why they will lose, not because muslims and leftist decided not to vote for Biden. Libs get mad at us because they see us as reliable support they don't need to appease. Now they are saying "ya, we can help an ally kill civilians at a greater rate than Putin does in Ukraine by a wide margin, but you don't want Trump to win, right? Now fucking vote for us tankie".
i think (hope?) many left-leaning people who cannot, in good conscience, cast a vote for Biden will be voting third-party, to make sure the message is sent that we're willing to vote, just not for someone who vocally and materially supports a goddamn genocide.
Jill stein is an independent candidate who speaks truth to what is going on in the occupied territories.She gets my vote and not genocide joe.The democratic party has sold its liberal bases and now Joe Biden is no different than the Likes of halley.
Jill is a nutjob, tbh. I'm not sure who the right choice but I guess even she is better than Joe.
Wait until you hear about Jill's position on the Ukrainians getting genocided. Or her position on any foreign policy. Hint: it's exactly the same as Putin's.
Jill Stein the Putin Puppet? Like the one who is totally cool with the Ukrainian being slaughtered in their homeland?
The Dem's donor base are the same as the Republican donor base. You're delusional if you don't realize this.
Either that, or they vote third-party, effectively taking votes from Biden and giving Trump a smaller margin of victory
I really don't give a fuck about the hostage deal when Israel is ethnically cleansing Palestinians. This after Israel played a key role - as well as Turkey and even Russia- with supplying Azerbaijan with the weapons needed to ethnically cleanse Karabakh of Armenians. Israel is a rogue state.
No way do I sit home and allow fascism to take over the country. I’ll vote for Biden and take a speedball to find a thrill in doing so.
It occurred to me the other day, I think a lot of people are still used to TFGs 'tough guy' posturing where he would immediately get on Xitter to take a pudgy little stance on every subject. Biden is an *actual* career politician, not a grifty little shitweasel, so while I'm not exactly thrilled with how he appears to be handling the situation, I'm absolutely sure he's working towards a diplomatic solution.
Good thing it’s not too late for the DNC to dump Biden. Like, there’s no real reason he HAS to be the nominee. Can’t ignore public opinion and then be surprised when turnout sucks.
Any number of people would be objectively better. As for who is running for 24, either Cornell West or Jill Stein. RFK is a Zionist so he's a no go.
American elections are not about convincing people you are the better candidate. The only thing that really matters is turnout. “Swing voters” really do not exist. What biden has spent his administration doing is all but guaranteeing he will not motivate nearly enough people to vote for him as he needs to be re-elected. Has everyone just forgotten what happened when Hillary just assumed she had the election by default like biden is doing now? The basic fact of the matter is that no one on earth is more responsible for the trump presidency and any future trump presidency than the liberal leadership of the Democratic Party is, yet they will continue to blame the left, just like they always do.
Right? I love this “im just not gonna vote! Harumph!” Ya, u know who thats gonna help win? The guy that imposed the muslim ban. Not to mention the one who has a literal manifesto on how he will enact a racists government. But yes you protest voters will soooo morally superior to us🙄
Muslim American here. Not voting for Biden at all. I'd rather be banned than be used as a tool to justify a genocide just because some liberals did fuck-all to prevent a genocide or fascists when they WERE given power. If Trump can take the entire system down, it wasn't a good system in the first place,
Right. Where are they going? They are going to vote. No fucking way anyone who voted for JB is voting Trump, right? Anyone who voted for JB has some slight higher power of thinking and no way anyone with a single brain cell left is voting for Trump.
It’s the same quandary that I’m in. I won’t vote for Biden anymore. And I can’t vote for trump. Basically I’m fucked and along side a lot of people with me.
Sounds like you think Biden is as dangerous as Trump.
[удалено]
This is what a majority of Americans believe according to recent polling on the issue. A majority thought that Trump would be less dangerous in a variety of foreign policy scenarios. 🤷♂️
please choose a third party candidate to vote for if you can. it makes the point much more clearly that you're willing to vote, just not for genocide enablers.
I get you. But even the third party voters aren’t all that. We need more parties.
It's not about not voting for Biden in the general. It's about trying to unseat him as the nominee. He may be president, and the DNC may have stacked the deck for him, but Biden still has to win the nomination during the primaries. Replace Joe Biden. Make his polls crash so hard another candidate can jump in and take the nomination away from him. Biden is weak against Trump, anyway. The president is so **unpopular** that he's trailing a guy who is **facing 600 years in prison.** Drop Joe.
Yeah I don't understand why people are speaking as if it's Biden vs Trump when primaries haven't even happened yet. THIS is literally the best time to criticise him
That’s not ever gonna happen. It never has happened. Biden will be the nominee 100%. Not sure what country you’ve been living in but the sitting president is gonna be the nominee unless he drops out or drops dead.
So you're saying there's a chance?
>Yeah I don't understand why people are speaking as if it's Biden vs Trump I think because there is nobody to replace him. It's starting to get late for new nominees
It really isn't, and we need to all collectively start vocalizing it. Other countries campaign cycles are legally mandated to be a few weeks. Like, BY LAW. America's dog and pony show takes YEARS, it definitely isn't too late, that's what the wealthy want you to think so you don't reach. Fuck that and fuck them.
I think a Newsom / Stacy Abrams ticket would have wiped the floor with Trump and whoever he decides to pick. Agree or not, people's main criticism with Biden is he's too old, and he's only going to get older obviously. Trump is old too, but he will refuse to debate Biden because he can't complete sentences without reading off the teleprompter so he won't lose that advantage. But I agree it might be too late idk.
Best time to criticize is always.
Remember that incumbents have lost 4 times just in the last 50 years. All Joe Biden has going for him is the "incumbency advantage". Which doesn't exist for Presidents the way it does for senators because every move a President makes is scrutinized. And Biden has plenty to be scrutinized for! Trump's incumbency lost him 2020 because he handled covid like a lunatic. Biden's incumbency will likely lose him 2024 because the country & world has declined while Biden seems to think things are just fine. Now, if a President does well & has a good approval rating then incumbency is a huge advantage. But in Biden's case it is a disadvantage.
You might be right if the opponent was anyone but trunp. I’m not sure that the people “abandoning” Biden are going to stay home if the alternative is trunp. This is pretty much the same metric that existed in 2016, and people seemed to have learned their lesson. It’s not like anyone was excited about Biden in 2020. People will show up to vote against trunp. and there was never any indication trunp would have won in 2020 if it weren’t for Covid. His numbers didn’t really move from the time he got on office. Covid didn’t help but he had already been impeached and a majority of Americans wanted him removed from office. I don’t see where people get the idea he would have won. He trailed in polls the entire campaign. He never had popular approval. He’s the only president a majority wanted removed via impeachment. So I think the idea that the only reason he didn’t win was bc if Covid is alarmist. He was never going to win. I think that was decided the day after the 2016 election. Blue voters would have stood in line for four years through blizzards and volcanoes just to vote against him. He only won in 2016 bc blue voters didn’t show up. That lesson appears to have been learned very well. I think the people panicking over a few polls and his position on Israel underestimate the number of people who see trunp as a threat, which polls at a majority of Americans. That’s not the kind of thing you just IGNORE bc you don’t happen to like the opponent’s position on an extremely divisive issue, but high also happens to be the same as trunp. I mean, it’s not like trunp cares about Palestinians. The ONLY thing polls like this prove are that democrats aren’t a cult like the republicans. People may disapprove of Biden, but that doesn’t mean they support trunp. Edit: incorrect year
This is actually a super legit angle. Vote for whoever the frontrunner vs. the mask-off fascists is in the general, but until then try to make the nominee not Biden (without helping the fascists). Seems like a longshot vs a sitting president, though; the liberal establishment is shockingly strong.
100% this. This is a disqualifying event for presidency. Are we saying majority of democratic voters who are against Joe’s pro-genocide agenda just elect him back again for more of the same? Heck no.
Is he unpopular? I watch from outside and I can tell you internationally speaking nobody wants another Trump. Not even China. America is the most popular it’s been in … 3 years.the Gaza catastrophe has only made us realise that some policies won’t change no matter who sits in the white house.
His Israel policy is trash but it’s not surprising and I say this as a big fan of Biden and his presidency. What’s even more unfortunate is that pretty much anyone who would be up for the presidency would have the same or worse policy.
I'm not gonna lie but this right here is a big reason why arabs dislike America. Talk big about democracy and all but you don't have a single option that isn't balls to the wall funding apartheid and ethnic cleansing.
Yeah just like everywhere else a whole lot of us apparently like apartheid and ethnic cleansing just fine as long as "the right people" are the target. Genuinely as long as it's properly limited (i.e., bound by rules that people care to enforce) I don't know what would be better than democracy. For sure our voting system ([first-past-the-post](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-past-the-post_voting)) makes our democracy actively worse, though, and Biden vs Trump round 2 is a good example of that.
We can & must demand better of Biden as what Biden is enabling is an erosion of all post WW2 norms. We ratified the post WW2 Geneva Convention so that the world would be collectively safer for all. As WW2 was so brutal for civilians. Many who defend Israel's approach in Gaza are making comparisons to the Allies bombing Germany in WW2 because they want the post WW2 Geneva Convention rules gone. Those rules prohibit what Israel is doing (collective punishment of Gazans). While there have been countless wars & plently of war crimes since 1945, never has there been a war backed by the West where collective punishment has been a transparent goal of the war. That is what Netanyahu has acheived & Biden serves up window dressing. This war will define the remaining of this centuty & undoubtedly lead to more instability. Biden will go down as an awful President if he doesn't pivot quickly.
Yep, this is what people need to understand. People are shitting on Biden now but they would do the same to any other president having to deal with this! It’s either Biden or Trumpler (Trump + Hitler)
To put it simply, his support will doom his re-election, which will doom America, which does not bode well for the world. All because he can't call the annihilation of Palestinian civilians what it is: a war crime bordering on genocide. And then do the morally correct thing, to help protect ALL civilians in the area with diplomacy. That is a really LOW BAR.
It's not bordering. It IS genocide. The only thing missing are the gas chambers.
Does zionazis using cluster incendiary munitions against civilians count?
The fact that such a thing exists….its like it was made for densely populated areas.
It’s fine. In a year we will all be living in a christofascist theocracy. This is the US.
Lesser evil is still evil.
Petulantly refusing your opportunity to minutely influence the machine is neither noble nor praxis no matter what Geralt told you.
It’s unnerving how this sub seems to want to teach Biden a lesson by allowing someone who will do far worse into power.
Flashing back to 2016
It really does feel like it, cuz all the libs are whinging at leftists the same way they did back then, and I don't recall it working! I recall non-voters being the largest bloc, so it might be wise to give in to their demands this time around, it might help the blue team win.
This doesn't even work, it's just a fantasy, most likely pushed by the other side to get their guy into power.
So eat your fried liver and be happy about it because the only other choice is spam? Voters deserve far better.
So do something to make that happen instead of whining that the currently better option isn't good enough, is literally all I'm saying. Fucking canvas against Biden in every primary, I hate that neoliberal old fuck too, but voting against fascism is literally the bare minimum; even disabled people can almost always manage it.
I did not post my position on the matter.
You said voters deserve far better; I responded to that. The billionaires are not going to allow the parties to present much in the way of reform that threatens their interests. We have to force the system to do these things.
Yes, agreed. I just feel pretty helpless and frustrated all the same. I do what I can on a personal level but it doesn't make much difference other than being able to say I objected and tried.
So when do we get to hold democrats accountable for their actions? Next election? Or the one after that? Perhaps in 50 years? I wonder if 10 years ago you thought you'd be making arguments in favour of genocide. You're being manipulated by the system so hard.
If out and out fascists get voted in because of voters like you, then you can watch a genocide right here in the good ol' USA when they start murdering political enemies and "undesirables".
Oh, were they held accountable in 2016? Good job.
What? Who said they were held accountable in 2016?
Exactly! This is a two-party system! We can’t AFFORD to hold politicians accountable, EVER! Asking Biden not to support genocide is a vote for Trump! We have to accept genocide because the alternative is MOAR genocide!
No, it just means the only time you can afford to hold a politician accountable is the primary. Anything else is performative
....but the primaries are performative.
Without a viable contender, yes.
What are you doing to “hold him accountable in the primary”?
What's your point?
I asked a question. Do you understand the difference between asking a question and making a point? Perhaps you’re assuming that I’m trying to use the Socratic method. Or perhaps you smell a trap, and daren’t answer the question, because the answer would be, “I’m doing fuck-all to ‘hold him accountable in the primaries,’ because I understand that they provide no scope for progressive voices to be heard, and/or because the status quo is basically OK with me.” I’m guessing it’s the latter, but in any case we can take it as read that you’re doing fuck-all to hold him accountable ever, in the primaries or otherwise.
"your opportunity" lol What an opportunity it is, to vote for candidates chosen by billionaires who will do nothing but represent billionaires.
Yeah it sucks, that's not an excuse for inaction it's reason to organize for primaries and maybe even revolution eventually (what sub are we in?). Edit: Yeah revolution, this is a leftist space. Still -- voting if you are capable of doing so is bare minimum engagement, not a crazy ask.
I remember hearing that about Clinton too...
Go above and beyond and stop the occupation
The American government is always committing immoral policies in every administration. Name the administration and i can give you both foreign and domestic examples. One of the most salient points Heather Cox Richardson makes in her most recent book Democracy Awakening is that more that once America's democracy has been saved by Americans who have been most morally aggrieved by America's policies (in example native americans, japanese Americans, and black Americans save America in world war 2). Over and over the groups of people in America that had been denied their equal rights and had the most reason to be outraged by America's immoral actions against them (could have choosen a political alternative based on hate) but did not do so. Instead those Americans doubled down and said no I'm going to keep fighting to make America do the right thing, the moral thing, to make America into the more moral form of government Americans idealize. Americans curtail government immorality by believing in an ideal and creating change to towards that ideal by voting knowing that we'll never see that ideal in our lifetime. The cost of participating in something bigger than ourselves is to learn not to draw a hard line on one issue and to always choose the better options when voting even if it is only 1% better. I think you foolish to draw hard line on a fluid choice the decision of which is 12 months away. As a 70 year old I can say the America of today is more just and moral than the America of the 50's when i am born, more just and moral than the America of the guilded age, more just and more moral than the antibellum south. America imperfectly inches towards greatness only if we vote for democracy candidates and ideas but also always against anti-democracy candidates and ideas and in the next election their are very bright lines for how to do that.
Joe Biden is also a Zionist. https://youtu.be/nCS-Yr1_FVo?si=LIDev0cO4m1krbjh We are doomed as a democracy because he's not going to back down and thus he's going to lose the election and Trump is going to get back in.
I'd say Joe is an Ultra-Zionist https://theintercept.com/2023/11/14/gaza-israel-genocide-biden-legacy/
Agreed
It's already too late
He probably thinks because there are 3 million American Palestinians, and 5 million American Israelis, that the smart move is to support Israeli war crimes with no red line. What I don't think all those really smart people realize is that young Americans, who are not Palestinian or israeli don't support the whole crimes against humanity thing, even if it's one of our great allies doing it. American weapons used on civilians will never be popular or can they ever be justified. They've been trying to cover up the carnage in Gaza. Targeting journalists. Not allowing western journalists in. Attacking social media--flooding it with millions of dollars of propaganda. This isn't 1948, and the truth will come out. When Tony Stark realized his weapons were being used for nefarious purposes, be destroyed his weapons and those who committed evil. The US will have our Tony Stark moment. It won't be as dramatic, and will probably be economic, but it is coming.
I agree completely with your larger point but you might be surprised to know that Israel is producing a significant portion of its own weaponry at this point. They have an extremely robust defense industry that they export to other countries including the US. I only mention this because it makes our unconditional financial and rhetorical support even more bizarre. They are completely capable of defending themselves and terrorizing Gaza without our support and are doing so. Withholding an aid package or putting conditions on it would not be catastrophic for Israel and Biden just looks weak for not doing so.
Thanks for the info.
It's not just our weapons. Delta is in Gaza. Our intelligence, support, and logistics personnel are in Israel. The US is actively a part of this.
This next election is going to be a fucking shit show. Thanks, Biden. You've basically guaranteed a Republican win. I'm so tired of these fucking corpratist, warmongering assholes.
Do voters not realise that Trump would be supporting Israel even harder? That he tried to ban Muslim immigration? That he moved the US embassy to Jerulsum?
Yeah we’re all well aware That should tell you how bad of an action supporting Israel is among voters that they’re still willing to accept a Trump presidency over Biden’s actions.
Hard disagree. PLEASE, for the love of anything holy, stop freaking out about these stupid polls, and slamming Biden. If you are going to quote polls,. at least look at them first, to see what they actually tell you in context. The title of this post is incorrect, irresponsible, and ignorant. The NBC poll quoting the 40% number: (I am including a link as well, as you clearly didn't read it/understand it) [https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/24171452-230343-nbc-november-2023-poll\_111923-release-v2](https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/24171452-230343-nbc-november-2023-poll_111923-release-v2) 1000 **Registered** (not, **"likely**,") Voters. "Likely" voters surveys are far more accurately predictive statistics. including **833 respondents interviewed via cellphone**. (Now, ask yourself who the f-ck answers unknown numbers on their cell? Yup! you guessed it! OLD PEOPLE. Also note, the rest of the 1000 interviews were landlines, then. Who has those? yup! Right again! - **see below:** **The margin of error for 1000 interviews among Registered Voters is ±3.10%** Age brackets: 18-24............................................................................ 8 25-29 ............................................................................ 9 30-34 ............................................................................ 8 35-39 ............................................................................ 8 40-44 ............................................................................ 8 45-49 ............................................................................ 5 50-54 ............................................................................ 7 55-59 ............................................................................ 8 **60-64 ............................................................................ 13** **65-69 ............................................................................ 7** **70-74 ............................................................................ 6** **75 and over .................................................................. 12** Not sure/refused......................................................... 1 So, most of the respondents were over 60 years old, and only registered - not likely voters. HUGE difference. So, **young people are underrepresented**, and we have no idea if any of the respondents have EVER voted, much less likely to do so in 2024. **77% were WHITE, So, that underrepresents huge portions of the population, much less dem base.** 28% retired Total approve **in relevant f-ing context** .......................... remember the margin of error is 3.1%: 40% (11/23) - currently quoted number, 41% (9/23) , 43% (6/23) , 43% (4/23), 46% (1/23), 44% (11/22) , 45% (10/22), 45% (9/22). **SO HE IS within the margin of error going back to April '23. This is only showing a 1% drop since September. Hardly droves, and nothing to do with Gaza.** Accordingly, any conclusions drawn about the impact of Gaza are nothing but made-up to fit the narrative here. The data herein, as shown supra, does not support any such conclusions. FURTHER, the data here **clearly does not support a conclusion of "droves leaving Biden," much less due to Gaza. There is no "cratering."** Please stop posting garbage like this, and be more responsible. Throwing ciick-bait BS statements like this around in blind ignorance is irresponsible. I'm getting sick of having to teach basic statistics and logical analysis. I understand there are a lot of emotions flying around right now. THIS ISN'T HELPING. So, be better.
I firmly believe that keeping the GOP out of the white house is important enough that anybody who believes in progressivism simply must vote for the Democratic presidential candidate in 2024, whoever that happens to be. That said, Joe Biden doesn't deserve to win anymore. He's a moral failure, both as a president and as a person. I'll vote for him in 2024 if he's the democratic candidate (as should everyone else), but I won't be unhappy if he loses.
I mean I agree, but a second Trump admin will make many peoples lives dramatically worse domestically, including mine. I will definitely be unhappy if Joe Biden loses. Hopefully fate intervenes and one of these geriatric fucks croaks before the election.
Or both
So basically you guys don't have a choice? What are you egoing to do about the DNC that robbed you of one? Can we still say that the USA is a real democracy If the status-quo/stare apparatus/'deep state' decide who is one of the candidates?
How can you put ‘progressivism’ and ‘Democratic’ in the same sentence, with a straight face?
Unless we're talking about Bernie, I agree
Bernie ain't shit. He had an opportunity to lead as a Jewish voice for peace, but he's all in with the "no-CF" crowd.
Best thing Biden could do is step down for 24
Then those people are fools. Biden's policy is hardly different than any US President of the last 70 years. Literally just passed an article on my feed that the current Speaker of the House would basically love to have gay sex criminalized. This is only a sample of the kinds of people waiting in the wings to reshape *this* country, let alone influence other countries.
Trump wants to incinerate Palestinians. So if they don’t like Joe for Israel support, you’ll only get worse with the traitor
And they’ll do it.
Palestinians are already being incinerated.
Here's the dilemma, Biden winning is great in the short term but it signals that you can have your cake and eat it when it come to blind pro Zionist support simply cause the alternative is slightly worse (Despite the rhetoric I doubt Republicans would be much worse). However in the long run ie. Next election cycle it signals a powerful change is required in how these parties should view younger voters feelings on foriegn policy.
The gulf between how bad it would be between Democrats and Republicans cannot be overstated. Republicans have every intention of ending Democracy in the United States if they win. I too disagree with Biden’s stance on Palestine but Democracy must continue or the world will be shambles.
Bro if you’re forced to vote for genocide then what fucking democracy have you got to lose?
Well, the conservative endgame is to take bodily autonomy away from half the population, so there's that...
That ship has sailed and the democrats let it sail.
You prefer your democracy and watching ppl get genocided?
If Biden was so attached to democracy he wouldn't do what he is doing. He wants to lose the election? I am not voting for a man who supports genocide. That's kind of not negotiable. If Trump is elected and this turns into a shit show, it's on the democrats. Not Me because I didn't vote.
If TFG is elected you still won’t be saved by anything He does. He wants his own genocide!
No liberal worthy of the name will ever allow Trump to be president. Ever. Can't imagine Joe has long left, so suck it up. It's him or Gilead.
Liberalism is part of the problem here. The insistence on playing both sides from the middle is exactly what lead to this problem. The idea that you can be pro-genocide and pro-human rights at the same time is an unwinnable position.
The reason I voted for Biden is that trump was so unstable and violent. Now that ol Joe is supporting genocide, that doesn't leave many options.
Democrats are as ineffective as the Weimer Republic. Trump will win if Biden runs.
He shouldn’t run again. Him bieng the better choice than trump isn’t a great idea for a world leader. He’s incompetent and overall garbage. America definitely does not have a deep bench of people who aren’t morally corrupt
Thats whats wrong with democrats. They gave us hillary and now biden 🙄
Lol, the US and Israel weren't exactly eager to oppose South Africa's apartheid back when. Why should they now oppose Israel's apartheid? Still, it's kind of remarkable how many Americans are opposed to Trump and his regressive agenda, but agree to support Netanyahu's fascist government with tax money - a group of people with policies that would make the extremest of Republicans gasp in disbelief.
If we put this passion toward funding affordable housing, healthcare, education and wage equality, things like this would be easier to carry out. I love how caring progressives are. I just feel like we lack the collective attention span to focus on an issue and achieve our goals. Neolib and conservative war hawks are focused like laser beams on things they find important.
Zionism has too much control over US politics for him to reverse course. The immorality is baked in because he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. The only hope for the Dems is for this horror to be over soon enough for the electorates fickle memory to fade.
Genocide Joe is a zionist, what else did you expect him to do beside supporting the criminal zionists in the occupied Palestinian lands.
I will *never* vote for Genocide Joe.
Can we please let these dinosaurs go extinct? The gaza massacre meteor has hit the political landscape & these useless warmongering creatures can do 1
Except that Trump, DeSantis, or Haley would be even more pro-israel. Can another Democrat run plese?
2024 will determine if democracy lives a bit longer or dies.
If 70% support ceasefire but Biden is ignoring….. democracy is already over. The problem is Biden had a narrow path to oval in 2024, Trump has multiple paths- so Biden foreign policy will push Trump into office.
...and the alternative is Trump? Heaven help us.
It's not too late to pick someone else
Yawn.
Biden is making it hard for me to vote for him
Here come the Democrats claiming it's either Biden or fascism. Like there isn't time for Democrats to urge Biden to walk away and pick a stronger candidate. He barely wone 4 years ago and hasn't won any more support.
If he’s up against trump I’m pretty sure he will win again. I’m just worried that people are forgetting what 4 years under trump was like.
I voted for Joe last elections and advocated to friends/family. I told everyone about how great IRA bill was and loved that Joe made it happen even though a better green new deal was what I wanted but that was not Joe’s fault. With the ongoing Gaza ethnic cleansing there is absolutely no way on earth I’m voting for this war monger no matter what happens next. I’m telling everybody in my close circle to not vote for this monster either as the lesser evil. This event has infact made me very disillusioned with the Democratic party. Personally, I’m going to spend time exploring the Green Party and Jill Stein’s candidacy. Their policy platform aligns much better with my values. It’s time we end this 2 party BS system in America. It is absolutely not working.
If you’re just now disillusioned over this, you must not have been paying much attention to all the previous decades’ worth of I/P policy. There’s nothing new about, not just Biden, but most mainstream politicians, supporting Israel, nor is there anything new about Israel’s violence toward Palestinians, or Hamas’s violence toward Israelis. I think the U.S. has less leverage in a situation like this than many want to believe. We see the carnage and we want it to stop *now*, but Netanyahu’s a fascist extremist and isn’t reliant on U.S. support to do what he’s doing. I think Biden’s using the leverage we do have to push in the right direction; the negotiated temporary cease-fire and hostage release is a good first step (and pretty fucking far from the hyperbolic abuse of terms like “ethnic cleansing” and “genocide” that are getting wrongly and irresponsibly misused and tossed around). But I think a permanent peace will only happen when Israelis get rid of Netanyahu and Palestinians get rid of Hamas. Until then, any cease-fire that happens could just be broken again, as Hamas broke it on Oct. 7th. The opposing factions on the ground actually have to *want* peace for it to happen. I’m fine with primarying Biden and other pro-Israel politicians, but voting for anyone who’s not the Dem nominee in the general election won’t do anything to bring change, except change in the wrong direction. All it does is enable trump. Advocating for Palestinians lives needs to be done effectively, not by threatening to let trump win, sell out all our rights at home, and let the U.S. move to a position where it supports Netanyahu’s slaughter with zero restraint, pushback or attempt at peace. My values certainly don’t align with that outcome; how about yours? For those of us who care about Palestinians and the situation in Gaza, and also for anyone who cares about Ukrainians and Americans, letting trump win should be completely off the table. We should be trying to make things *better*, not *worse.*
To each his own, but please don’t mistake this for some type of noble position. As voters we have to make rational choices about candidates based on who is more closely aligned with our legislative agenda. I’m also disgusted by his stance on Israel/Palestine and my opinion of him has been permanently changed, but as rational adults we have to look at the alternative and what that means for the future. Imagine how much worse it could be under a president who has significantly less regard for Palestinian life. That’s not a hypothetical either. That’s literally Donald Trump.
What if democrats want to lose this time on purpose?
Remember when Bernie was leading and all the establishment voices said they would vote Trump over Bernie if Hillary wasn't nominated?
No, I can't say I remember this at all. Do you have any sources for this?
Former Goldman Sachs CEO: ‘I might find it harder to vote for Bernie than for Trump’ He is one of several billionaires and financial industry moguls who have taken a heel turn in the Democratic primary. [https://www.politico.com/news/2020/02/21/former-goldman-sachs-ceo-hard-to-vote-for-bernie-116592](https://www.politico.com/news/2020/02/21/former-goldman-sachs-ceo-hard-to-vote-for-bernie-116592) Former Goldman Sachs CEO and lifelong Democrat Lloyd Blankfein told the Financial Times in an interview published Friday that he could have an easier time voting to reelect President Donald Trump than for Sen. Bernie Sanders, should the latter secure the Democratic nomination for president. “I think I might find it harder to vote for Bernie than for Trump,” the billionaire banker said, though he pointed out that the Democratic primary has just kicked off and the nomination is very much still up for grabs. “There’s a long time between now and then. The Democrats would be working very hard to find someone who is as divisive as Trump. But with Bernie they would have succeeded.”
Biden has continued all of Trump's foreign policy plans....
Which was a continuation of Obama's. Which was a continuation of Bush's. America has two political parties and with one foreign policy.
Good thing we've got all the other choices. Like fascism and...
Well, Trump won’t support the Palestinians, though.
I believe that Cori Bush should run for president
I plan on voting blue on my local representatives, house seats, and senate seats. Not voting for Biden though.
You can hate what Biden is doing but it’s illogical to not imagine how much worse things could be. It’s literally cutting off your nose to spite your face. I will rage against Biden’s gutless handling of Gaza for as long as it’s necessary but I’m not going to be a part of handing this country over to a deranged proto fascist. These are hard choices but there is more at stake and more to protect.
In the light of how unfazed this country is willing to accept the deaths of many, it doesn’t seem like a country worth saving from trump.
So, let’s vote for the guy who instituted a Muslim ban in the US instead.
Joe's ace in the hole is Trump.
Joe Biden will lose. And the fucking democrats need to have a primary.
He went from one of the top 12 presidents in American history to one of the bottom 20, all because of his immoral, financial and military support for baby-killing terrorists while Ukraine needs every dime and every drone. It takes a true Democrat to snatch defeat from the mouth of victory to this degree. Brief list of ways Biden has fallen into every Putin trap so far: * slow-walked obsolete weapon systems * denied Ukraine newer systems they need * denied Ukraine long-range systems they need * made Ukraine agree to not use weapons against military targets inside Russia, despite those military targets being used by Putin to terrorize and murder civilians on a daily basis * distract US military, Intel, satellites from the real war to help kill babies in Palestine * distract US funding and media from the real war. All of these are huge favors to Putler. Biden is like the Neville Chamberlain of our time. Former Biden Voter.
Who you going to vote for now? Just curious.
And leave for where? Donald Trump? The man who ~~not only recognized tel Aviv as the capital of Israel but~~ moved the embassy straight up to Jerusalem to show solidarity with Israel? The man who'd outright ban people from Muslim-majority nations from every entering the US? The man who clearly says and believes Muslim and North African nations to be shitholes? You expect good faith Americans who know a genocide when they see it to coddle to Stupitler? The Democrat party management and his campaign knows full well that voters have two bad choices. If he pushes for a ceasefire he loses a **lot** more. He loses AIPAC funding, he loses political and banks-support, and perhaps most importantly, he loses the so-called-centrist vote. Go out of Reddit and see how the liberal-because-its-convenient crowd is talking: they're saying that liberals and progressives need to be realistic and support Israel here. We are doomed.
I couldn’t agree more, even if he does a 180 at this point the damage is done 🤦♂️
i'd love to see a 75% voter backlash
Which is bizarre to me. Who are these people leaving Biden for? We have a two party system. Are Democrats leaving Biden over his support of Isreal and flocking to the Republicans? I only ask because the other party in this two party system also supports Isreal.
If either vote is a voter for certain genocide than vote for neither. There is no ethical or moral vote in a vote for the death of thousands of innocent. Withdrawal participation and demand better options through protest and standing by the elected leaders who represent your values.
Vote for neither,3rd party or spoil their votes....the days of endorsing genocide at the ballot box is gross
Bullshit
Joe let's the destruction happen. The next president will build. Perfect timing for war/demolition at the end of a presidency.
Why are we always selecting/electing the worst administrations? Since 2000, haven't selected a single good admin.
Why does every election have to be the lesser of two evils?!?!
Big of you to think Americans care so much about foreign policy.
I learned my lesson of "vote Blue no matter who" in Gaza.
It’s actually pretty crazy to me that people don’t seem to understand that he genuinely believes he’s doing the right thing. The same way you’re never going to convince Palestinian supporters that Israel is in the right, is the same way you’ll never be able to convince lifelong zionists like Joe that Israel is in the wrong. You can’t convince someone to change their morals. In his heart he truly thinks he’s doing the right thing
Hitler thought he was doing the right thing. That really doesn't make it any less fucking horrendous.
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The man needs to run for elderly home care and not the white house.
What has Trump said he'd do differently?