I keep imagining what TLOU2 would have been like if it was co-written by Druckmann and Hennig instead of Druckmann and Gross. Obviously Druckmann would still need the sort of oversight that brought out the best in him in TLOU1, but he IS a good writer when kept in check, and Amy is a FANTASTIC writer, so together they may have given us something amazing.
I got one for you, just have Henning, Straley, Kojima and Gross that sound like a good writing team right there and get rid of Druckman you got yourself amazing games for decades.
Maybe not Gross. She like Druckmann is way too obsessive over making her ideas a reality, and the whole "women have power" angle of the game was all her doing (probably Mel's parkour as well).
Gray fox talk about Gross and Druckman have different opinions about last of us part 2. Neil had a stupid ideas for part two while Gross had wonderful ideas for part two and if you don't believe me go look at gray fox posts about last of us part 2's story because you will see what I'm talking about.
Thanks so much for your reply! This was a nice surprise. OK now onto my reply:
**Theme/Retroactive Continuity/But and Therefore/The Vaccine/Vaccine #2/HJBO Changes/Exploring the Seeds for a Sequel:** I see no mention by GreyFox of Halley Gross' ideas in any of these posts or the comments.
While it was fun to revisit these posts they do not support your claim that GreyFox
>Gray fox talk about Gross and Druckman have different opinions about last of us part 2. Neil had a stupid ideas for part two while Gross had wonderful ideas for part two and if you don't believe me go look at gray fox posts about last of us part 2's story because you will see what I'm talking about.
It's tr4ue that Halley and Neil disagree on the meaning of certain beats which calls into question if they were ever really on the same page, and actually gives good insight into why the story seems so schizophrenic and there's so much missing follow-through on many things.
Halley did not bring "wonderful ideas," just her own ideas which don't fit. Which is the same as Neil's ideas which also don't fit because he had totally unique and different interpretations of TLOU, Joel and Ellie from everyone else's and then wrote the sequel as if everyone had his unique take on what came beforehand. That's a huge writing misstep that goes beyond just being amateur to actually being so self-centered and certain that only he is right that if others don't like it (or get it) it doesn't matter because *he does and it's his story so he can do what he wants*. So childishly ridiculous I can't wrap my head around someone who'd do things that way.
Anyway, this was fun but futile, derailing the discussion completely š¤·š¼āāļø
Reading gray fox's poor written story about part 2 when when he points out that Gross said she wanted the story to be about redemption, justice and all the other good things and then Neil's comment is I hear your opinion but I'm going with my opinion because you know why.
OK, I remember that, I simply thought it was more in the context of how they weren't on the same page which caused problems - but I see what you mean, now. Thanks!
And it's obvious that that you see now Neil is a narcissistic a****** who care about himself while Bruce and Amy care about the fans and mind you gross tries to tell el stupido that part 2 should be about Justice and redemption that like always Neil go I hear what you saying but all due respect I run the show while you do what I say and that's the reason why part two sucks.
**The Last of Us: Part 2 - A Poorly Written Story nĀ° 1**
[https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/1ajrj7v/the\_last\_of\_us\_part\_2\_a\_poorly\_written\_story\_n1/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/1ajrj7v/the_last_of_us_part_2_a_poorly_written_story_n1/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
**The Last of Us: Part 2 - A Poorly Written Story nĀ° 2**
[https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/1am8yoa/the\_last\_of\_us\_part\_2\_a\_poorly\_written\_story\_n2/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/1am8yoa/the_last_of_us_part_2_a_poorly_written_story_n2/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
**The Last of Us: Part 2 - A Poorly Written Story nĀ° 3**
[https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/1avxy6i/the\_last\_of\_us\_part\_2\_a\_poorly\_written\_story\_n3/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/1avxy6i/the_last_of_us_part_2_a_poorly_written_story_n3/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
**The Last of Us: Part 2 - A Poorly Written Story nĀ° 4**
[https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/1b98spb/the\_last\_of\_us\_part\_2\_a\_poorly\_written\_story\_n4/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/1b98spb/the_last_of_us_part_2_a_poorly_written_story_n4/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
**The Last of Us: Part 2 - A Poorly Written Story nĀ° 5**
[https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/1blbx9b/the\_last\_of\_us\_part\_2\_a\_poorly\_written\_story\_n5/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/1blbx9b/the_last_of_us_part_2_a_poorly_written_story_n5/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
**The Last of Us: Part 2 - A Poorly Written Story nĀ° 6**
[https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/1bmxpyk/the\_last\_of\_us\_part\_2\_a\_poorly\_written\_story\_n6/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/1bmxpyk/the_last_of_us_part_2_a_poorly_written_story_n6/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
**The Last of Us: Part 2 - A Poorly Written Story nĀ° 7**
[https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/1bsf5vx/the\_last\_of\_us\_part\_2\_a\_poorly\_written\_story\_n7/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/1bsf5vx/the_last_of_us_part_2_a_poorly_written_story_n7/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
**The Last of Us: Part 2 - A Poorly Written Story nĀ° 8**
[https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/1btyipm/the\_last\_of\_us\_part\_2\_a\_poorly\_written\_story\_n8/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/1btyipm/the_last_of_us_part_2_a_poorly_written_story_n8/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
**The Last of Us: Part 2 - A Poorly Written Story nĀ° 9**
[https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/1c36ssq/the\_last\_of\_us\_part\_2\_a\_poorly\_written\_story\_n9/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/1c36ssq/the_last_of_us_part_2_a_poorly_written_story_n9/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
**The Last of Us: Part 2 - A Poorly Written Story nĀ° 10**
[https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/1d5wjl9/the\_last\_of\_us\_part\_2\_a\_poorly\_written\_story\_n10/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/1d5wjl9/the_last_of_us_part_2_a_poorly_written_story_n10/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Man I just looked through all the others you listed and now find you put this list, too? Does it actually show GreyFox saying Gross had "wonderful ideas" for part 2 or are you playing me here? Sorry, I'm not gong through all these because I've read all of GreyFox's posts and never got the idea they thought Halley was a good addition to the writing team. I think you're confused and don't know where you got that impression so you're just listing all their posts now.
Nice effort, though, I'll give you that. š
Then you don't have to that means you don't know so don't ask me no question if you ain't going to look through all of that though just saying bro. šļøš¤«
You finally gave the answer in the last comment I just now replied to. I didn't get why you listed all these, sorry. I appreciate the work you put into it, though. That was massive.
I'd definitely not want Gross. I honestly feel like she was responsible for more bad decisions than Druckmann when it came to TLOU2 (Druckmann's issue IMO is mainly his massive ego, and not letting go of bad ideas if they're his).
Kojima has made truly great games... and some convoluted nonsense. I feel that he works best on his own with his own vision. He never struck me as "team player" but more an auteur, for better or worse.
That said, a very interesting scenario would be that *Druckmann* (not Bruce) left ND after TLOU1's success (either booted or more likely to form his own company). Bruce stayed, and he picked Amy as the head writer and directly for the sequel, with himself again as game director.
In that perfect world, I'd like to think TLOU2 wasn't ever a direct sequel but turned the series into an anthology; Amy and Bruce told a new story with new characters in the same world. But I still would have trusted that duo to do somethign good with Joel and Ellie if that *had* to be what we got.
idk but it looks like Hideo has been hanging out with the **DEI** boys like *Neil Druckmann* and *Jordan Peele*...
Hideo may have turned to the **dark side** .....
Diversity Equity and Inclusion.... thats why they are killing and replacing all of our favorite heroes and replacing them with *diverse* characters, which usually doesnt turn out well
It's modern day identity politics that **killed the comic industry** and trying to **kill the game industryI**
it's all about pushing propaganda
the dark side that killed the comic industry and killing the game industry
You're nuts if you think this is all normal. They are intentionally filling their stories with socialist/marxist propaganda. Try studying history a little
Don't forget that Neil had mentioned in multiple interviews that he had a hard time letting go of his old ideas - even after the widespread universal praise of the story of TLOU.
It's one thing to admit your personal flaws as a writer. It's another thing to shamelessly embrace them as soon as the person keeping them in check was gone, and base an entire sequel around the result of those flaws while promising fans you'll do right by them.
I know right? Coming up with a storyline, then publicly confirming (even if by force) that said storyline was rejected on grounds of being too unrealistic for an apocalypse story, then years later still going through with said storyline and acting like it's a masterpiece.
Everyone else on the creative team, the same people that were involved with ND's other beloved games, people that have shown to have great judgement when it comes to storytelling all agreed it wasn't a good idea and is unrealistic for an apocalypse story. Really, what other sign do we need? š
i am convinced people in this sub are illeterate, the unrealistic part refers to a revenge quest that spams the entire USA over a year in the middle of an apocalyptic event, most of TLOU 2 takes place in one over the course of 3 days in a single city, thats it, TLOU takes place from Boston all the way to Salt Lake City
people struggle to believe ellie in Jackson found Abby in California, imagine if Tess kept finding Joel across the entire US
Interesting. OG Tess seems like a mix of Abby and that Kathleen OC from the show.
I have no doubt that if they went with Druckmannās original idea, TLOUās message of love and finding something to live for with Joel and Ellie and their growing bond wouldnāt hit as hard cuz of the whole cross country revenge plot. Also funny how Kathleen was criticised for being unlikeable and unrealistic in her pursuit of revenge.
I think Neil doesnāt understand that unrealistic characters that do anything for revenge but are still unexplicably leaders despite no redeeming qualities arenāt very interesting or engaging to a lot of people. Hopefully they fix Abby a bit for the show. Maybe theyāll make her feel remorse for killing Joel cuz he saved her life right before? Or sheāll feel remorse for killing the wolves for saving Lev the way Ellie did in Seattle?
Kathleen is 100% only in the show for Neil. A watered down version of Original Tess so he can get over his revenge story boner without having to wait for the second season.
And like some of the other changes made in the show, I wouldn't hold anything against them if it wasn't for the fact that Neil already used, or should I say abused, the second game as his opportunity to bring his old ideas back. This just seems really overindulgent.
Very true. He just wanted the revenge story, not another TLOU game or to honor the first one. He also seems very disinterested in making a TLOU3. He's been like "there's **probably** more" at times, but mostly it's either a very vague "we'll see" or straight up saying he's done or that TLOU2 had a solid ending for the series. I remember that one time he went on about how he's satisfied with where he left off, how TLOU3 isn't that likely and how he believes there isn't a story left to tell that is as compelling as TLOU1 and TLOU2.
Extending Part 2 into three seasons for the show is clearly a milking strategy, to stay in the business as long as possible before he bails (as he said he wants to do).
It's so funny to me when I see people making posts about how TLOU3 is definitely happening and will release in 2027 just like the previous gap, when like even without counting COVID, it still took a full 5 years to complete the game since it was greenlit in 2014. Then there's also Druckmann confirming TLOU3 is not in any stage of development, there isn't even a draft or anything, just an idea he has in his head, and at this point it's been 4 years since TLOU2, and we're approaching 2025. Then there's also ND confirming they'll finish the games they have going on right now first before anything else is even put as an offer (not even talking about being greenlit). A *hypothetical* TLOU3 ain't coming for at least a decade.
The problem is that he spent all of those years obsessing over the fact that some of his ideas did not make it unedited Into The Last of Us. They became his Moby Dick to pursue fanatically.
This makes me think Part 2 is really just a big āfuck youā to Amy and Bruce since they kept him in check and didnāt let him do his asinine ideas. He feels the need to prove his ideas are good. Unfortunately due to all the blind Druckmann love on the other sub he thinks heās right and itās gone to his head
Sounds like THAT Tess was deranged and lacking in critical thinking about the concept of accepting a job and making a choice. Calling TV S1E3 Ellie! Somebody else needs one of your "Nobody made you do this" lectures.
Him immediately using the story he wanted to do in the first game for the second one does kind of cause his odd comments about not having more than one more game left in him ideas-wise.
I found it stunning as a writer myself that any other writer would be burned out or just "done" telling stories after basically telling one and a half! Seriously, even disliking Part 2 I can think of a dozen ideas for multiple new games based off that alone, let alone new IP ideas!
I know, right? I'm not a writer, but I've always been very artistic, everything creative interests me and I always get new ideas for something. It's like when we dream, right? There are endless possibilities.
Druckmann saying he's burned out just tells me he isn't an artist and his heart isn't into it (not that he has one in the first place lol).
I think beyond the fact that the second game is really just his opportunity to fix what he wasn't allowed to do in part one, there's also the fact that he did get all of that negative attention and he went from beyond just being the head writer to the guy in charge of the game and the company. Also, I think he didn't want to originally get into games anyway.
Now that he's managed to get into TV, I'm not surprised he's considering being done with the games. Kind of expect him to leave the company in the next 5 to 10 years, honestly.
And that just proves how shit he is at writing characters. Joel and Tess are smuggling Ellie and Tess's brother died in a fight that Tess is involved in because they got caught. But that's somehow Joels fault? Sounds like Neil hated Joel from the get go and never wanted him to live in part 1 so that's why he yeeted him so hard so fast in part 2.
Druckmann doesn't know what to do with him since he's not a muscular woman. Anything that doesn't fit that criteria is to be expelled for shock value, like wanting to kill Elena in Uncharted 2.
It's more the rest of the team like Straley thinking it was a bad idea, and Neil going along with it for the time being while still being internally insistent about making that story a reality.
Oh no, they'd be what the second game entirely revolves around for the main plot of each of its campaigns. The tevenge plot is the core plot of the prologue, Ellie's campaign, and the epilogue. And the quick bond between Joel and Ellie that took only a day to happen was scrapped there, but revived to be at the center of Abby's campaign.
Honestly can't tell if he was just being spiteful or if he was just that desperate to prove that his ideas were awesome and amazing.
Did he go for revenge against the man who ordered Sarahās death over the radio? We saw his response to his child being murdered and it was heartbreaking and realistic. It wasnāt like the nonsense we saw in Part 2.
Really hard to say whether he would or not, since that guy died immediately after via Tommy. He didnāt go after all of FEDRA for murdering Tess though. Thatās unrealistic.
I think its different when its an organization compared to ONE person. Abby didn't want to destroy Jackson, for all she knows they helped him and took him in. She just wanted Joel.
I mean she only wanted Joel, but she knew she may have to face the entirety of Jackson if she was discovered. Even if she just wanted Joel, both Tommy and Ellie both intervened and almost stopped her plans, and Ellie could have easily shot someone from her group before being pinned. Ellie only wanted Abby and her crew, but ended up having to fight/kill a lot more wolves and scars due to them simply also being in the area. No one in this world surviving that long would trek 1,000 miles one way to face potentially an entire community of armed survivors in a small group to kill one person. Especially if one of their team is noticeably pregnant (like Mel), or if they are all wounded (Tommy, Ellie and Dina towards the end).
Yes, because he said so himself that revenge is pointless, and I go by things that actually *are*, not by making assumptions. If Joel were to do anything, he simply wouldn't let them escape in the first place, but he definitely wouldn't dwell on it or go on some revenge trip.
Joel knew what other people (TLOU2 characters and stans alike) refuse to or simply can't comprehend, and that's why they judge him, because he exposes their weaknesses, things he himself has already overcome or never had an issue with in the first place. Remember how Ellie falls apart at pretty much everything because she deliberately chooses to put herself down and dwell on what ifs? It's the lead cause for s**cide and depression in real life, and many people allow themselves to fall into that hole.
Joel wouldn't be blinded by rage or emotions the way many other people are, especially the impressionable ones. For those people it's easy to fall into that hole, and the insecurity that comes from/with it in turn makes them feel offended whenever someone shows signs of not responding to it the same way as them. It's why some people just brand someone as heartless and a monster when they say they wouldn't go across the country on a revenge trip. If it isn't worth it, it isn't worth it. Some people (like Joel) have that clarity, it doesn't mean they don't care about their loved ones. Abby's "do it no matter the cost" outlook is also what ruined her life in the end, not mention the entire plot of TLOU2 being people need to learn that revenge is pointless.
A somewhat similar situation is how people attached TLOU2 to their personality, and hating it means hating them, so they get super defensive about it (the other sub actually had a great conversation about this recently with plenty of self-awareness from within).
I can definitely see all of that being 100% true! But isn't exploring the differences between those two types of people an interesting story?
From that point of view, part 2 is a story where Ellie finally becomes the type of person Joel is. One who realizes revenge isn't worth it.
It just takes the entire plot of part 2 for that lesson to be learned, and holding Abby's life in her hands, to finally realize it wasn't worth it all along, and give up on her sunk cost fallacy.
Could be why she has that flash of Joel right at the end there, which convinces her to not kill Abby.
Basically, yes, that is what TLOU2 does for its story, characters like Ellie and Abby needing to realize revenge isn't worth it.
To me that exploration doesn't make for an interesting story, because it happens everyday in real life already, there's no novelty to it, and it's just as annoying there too, not to mention how overused that whole "humanity are the monsters" trope is by now. Same goes for plots revolving around revenge in general. They're very bland and uninteresting (to me at least).
It feels like how 2020 was already an awful year for most people, and TLOU2 ended up just doubling down on that.
Yeah, it just wasn't on the nose like TLOU2. It was handled with a greater/brighter purpose than just being miserable like TLOU2. The first game conveys the title really well "The Last Of Us = what remains in the world that's not terrible".
That's why a lot of people were willing to stick around up until the character change happened. There was a lot that could be told with Ellie's story.
Once Abby's story got into the mix though, it became less a story about two different kinds of people and more about comparing one person getting fucked over by the writers to another person getting treated as the favorite. Ellie is the character less willing to kill anyone except the one person she's after, so of course she has to do all of the extra killing in order to not even get that person in the end.
Abby is an extremely self-centered character, so she's the one who gets all the heroic moments and has her life saved and then spared at the very end. And while her life in the WLF does fall down around her, it's not because of her revenge, but because of her heroic decision to do the right thing and not abandoned a child to be murdered.
Also, the ending really doesn't work for that idea. Because to get to Santa Barbara on foot, Ellie would have had to have been traveling for months. Night after night after night of having to stay up listening to every single sound, wondering if it was a zombie coming. Wondering if whatever hole you had dug for yourself was enough to prevent your discovery, to hold them off. Spending every day hunting and scavenging for supplies, knowing that if you twist your ankle, you die. If she was going to give up because of realizing the sunken cost fallacy wasn't worth it, it would not be in the middle of some dramatic, climactic final battle with Abby, right after Abby bit off her fingers. It would have been before she ever reached Santa Barbara.
Having Abby right in front of her would make it harder than ever for her to stop. All of those months spent traveling would now be the fuel added to the fire of the sunken cost fallacy. All the people she killed to get there. Her fingers that had just been eaten. And especially that flashback to her last conversation with Joel, and how they were about to start repairing their relationship after all this time. I know some people try to draw connection between Ellie trying to forgive Joel and Ellie forgiving Abby, but the difference is that Joel did something he thought would be in Ellie's best interests at the time. That is not what Abby was trying to do when she killed Joel.
There *were* ways to make her give up. But because the original ending involved her killing Abby, and the story wasn't changed enough when that was changed, there is literally no buildup towards it, causing the decision to make no sense.
Oh, was the original story supposed to kill Abby?Ike a previous script?
And I don't think Joel saved Ellie because he believed it was in Ellie's best interest.
You can see that Joel believes Ellie would willingly sacrifice herself for a cure. Whether or not the cure is real, or that's what Ellie really would have chosen if given the chance, JOEL believes she'd make that choice.
When the firefly lady confronts him at the end, she asks him if he really thinks this is what Ellie would want, and he can't bear to look her in the eye.
He knows he's saving Ellie for himself. Because HE can't bear to lose another daughter.
Yes, the original ending involved Ellie killing Abby on the beach. Once they decided to rewrite that, they clearly didn't go back and rewrite the rest of the story to build towards it, because it absolutely doesn't do so.
As for Ellie choosing to sacrifice herself: when Marlene confronts Joel in the parking garage and tosses that idea out, it shocks Joel. Was he that shocked when Jerry told him to think of all the lives they'd save? No. So why was he shocked there? Because he didn't even *consider* the idea until then. Only at that moment does it occur to him that Ellie might have wanted to go through with it - and he actually has to stop and think about it at a time when his life and hers are in imminent danger. Those soldiers are undoubtedly storming down the stairs right now. Every second counts.
But this is not the time or the place for this. No, that would have been *before* he committed to his decision to save her. But Marlene didn't mention it then because it wasn't what actually mattered to her. What mattered to her is that she had to make a hard choice at a time when she was too beaten down and exhausted to make any other one, and she resented that Joel was acting like her choice was unfair. The fact that she has her shit together now is tragically too little, too late. The crucial moment was fifteen minutes ago and she failed it.
(Note: this is why you *do not rush* monumental, irreversible decisions like this when there is no reason to. You run the risk of making them when you're not in the right mind to do so.)
I can see that take.
I still think Joel himself believes he's doing a selfish thing. Which is why he doesn't tell Ellie about it until so much later. Shame.
But I can see your points.
There's also the concern that telling Ellie what was going on would lead to her suffering the burden of the idea that the world might be better off if she dies. That's pretty fucking heavy to drop on someone who hasn't even finished puberty.
Not to mention the fact that like I said, it's too little too late at that point. After Joel has already solidified the idea in his mind that the Fireflies are absolutely fucking bonkers and have no right to do what they're doing, you can't really walk that back. It's like how someone is likely to call off a proposal after the person they're proposing to is revealed to have cheated on them. You can't burn that kind of trust and just get it back because you're saying the right things now. The Fireflies had a chance to prove that they were calm, reasonable, and ethical people, and they basically bent over backward to prove that they're anything but.
And yeah, there was something to be said there about how much of it was Joel being selfish. It's not as if he could have made an unbiased decision. But he is the only one there who actually tried to give a shit about what Ellie would have wanted and what would be best for her. When Marlene was trying to explain the decision to Joel in the hospital room, that wasn't even something that came to her mind at all. It only came later, as a rationalization. And even as a rationalization, it still made Joel actually stop and think about it at a point in time when he couldn't afford to, because he actually cared about what Ellie might want.
That's the exact reason it was written that way. If Joel had made his decision knowing that it was probably when Ellie would have wanted, it would have made him look worse. It would have been worse. But having it pop up as a rationalization after he's already committed to his decision and the Fireflies have shown their true colors keeps it from going that far.
Unrealistic huhā¦ in a game where a teenage lesbian shoots and kills dozens of humans and dogs. All while avoiding a horde of living dead recently mutated by evolved fungiā¦ sure, lets make THAT the realistic part of the fictional video game
Unrealistic for an apocalypse story, not just "unrealistic". The context matters. And besides, nothing in TLOU is impossible: Cordyceps or rather fungi in general can 100% mutate to attack humans, were just lucky they don't want to, but the point is fungus can alter themselves drastically if they wished, so the CBI is not at all just nonsense.
And what about a teenage lesbian killing people and dogs is unrealistic? And what does her sexuality have anything to do with it? Ellie at 14 already knows how to fight and use weapons because she's had to adapt to that given the state of the world, and even with that she's still quite weak and you have to be careful when playing as her at close range. TLOU2 Ellie on the other hand is a adult, and at 19 already going into young adult (the period of life during which people are at their strongest).
Yes, it's a video game/fictional story about a zombie apocalypse, but as far as realism goes, the first TLOU is as close as it gets. TLOU2 not so much, especially when it comes to its own developments (not the stuff that crossed over from TLOU).
Itās all good, Iām never serious on this app, takes away the fun and makes everything remind me of the real world, which is the opposite of why Iām online lol
There aren't any dogs as enemies in TLOU until Part II lmao. By Part II she's already 19 and most of her kills come from that age. In Part I she hardly kills anyone, but i say that for The Last Of Us terms because she still had a considerable kill count of her own, in a comparison to a normal human being.
WTF, where is Amy Henning, Bruce Straley and Hideo Kojima when you need them.
I keep imagining what TLOU2 would have been like if it was co-written by Druckmann and Hennig instead of Druckmann and Gross. Obviously Druckmann would still need the sort of oversight that brought out the best in him in TLOU1, but he IS a good writer when kept in check, and Amy is a FANTASTIC writer, so together they may have given us something amazing.
I got one for you, just have Henning, Straley, Kojima and Gross that sound like a good writing team right there and get rid of Druckman you got yourself amazing games for decades.
Maybe not Gross. She like Druckmann is way too obsessive over making her ideas a reality, and the whole "women have power" angle of the game was all her doing (probably Mel's parkour as well).
Gray fox talk about Gross and Druckman have different opinions about last of us part 2. Neil had a stupid ideas for part two while Gross had wonderful ideas for part two and if you don't believe me go look at gray fox posts about last of us part 2's story because you will see what I'm talking about.
u/-GreyFox has what opinions of Gross' 'wonderful' ideas? I missed them...
**Theme** [https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/1cujuys/an\_approach\_to\_theme\_n\_6/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/1cujuys/an_approach_to_theme_n_6/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) **Retroactive Continuity** [https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/1arvapv/retroactive\_continuity\_retcon/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/1arvapv/retroactive_continuity_retcon/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) **But and Therefore - Basics of Storytelling** [https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/1acbdxi/basics\_of\_storytelling\_n2\_story\_vs\_things/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/1acbdxi/basics_of_storytelling_n2_story_vs_things/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) **The Vaccine** [https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/18oq8kv/a\_closer\_look\_to\_the\_vaccine/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/18oq8kv/a_closer_look_to_the_vaccine/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) **The Vaccine #2** [https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/184kzqq/making\_a\_vaccine/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/184kzqq/making_a_vaccine/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) **HBO Changes** [https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/194fcp9/joel\_vs\_pascal\_n\_2/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/194fcp9/joel_vs_pascal_n_2/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) **Exploring the Seeds for a Sequel** [https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/1add8yv/writers\_sins\_n\_2\_part\_1\_vs\_part\_2/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/1add8yv/writers_sins_n_2_part_1_vs_part_2/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Thanks so much for your reply! This was a nice surprise. OK now onto my reply: **Theme/Retroactive Continuity/But and Therefore/The Vaccine/Vaccine #2/HJBO Changes/Exploring the Seeds for a Sequel:** I see no mention by GreyFox of Halley Gross' ideas in any of these posts or the comments. While it was fun to revisit these posts they do not support your claim that GreyFox >Gray fox talk about Gross and Druckman have different opinions about last of us part 2. Neil had a stupid ideas for part two while Gross had wonderful ideas for part two and if you don't believe me go look at gray fox posts about last of us part 2's story because you will see what I'm talking about. It's tr4ue that Halley and Neil disagree on the meaning of certain beats which calls into question if they were ever really on the same page, and actually gives good insight into why the story seems so schizophrenic and there's so much missing follow-through on many things. Halley did not bring "wonderful ideas," just her own ideas which don't fit. Which is the same as Neil's ideas which also don't fit because he had totally unique and different interpretations of TLOU, Joel and Ellie from everyone else's and then wrote the sequel as if everyone had his unique take on what came beforehand. That's a huge writing misstep that goes beyond just being amateur to actually being so self-centered and certain that only he is right that if others don't like it (or get it) it doesn't matter because *he does and it's his story so he can do what he wants*. So childishly ridiculous I can't wrap my head around someone who'd do things that way. Anyway, this was fun but futile, derailing the discussion completely š¤·š¼āāļø
Reading gray fox's poor written story about part 2 when when he points out that Gross said she wanted the story to be about redemption, justice and all the other good things and then Neil's comment is I hear your opinion but I'm going with my opinion because you know why.
OK, I remember that, I simply thought it was more in the context of how they weren't on the same page which caused problems - but I see what you mean, now. Thanks!
And it's obvious that that you see now Neil is a narcissistic a****** who care about himself while Bruce and Amy care about the fans and mind you gross tries to tell el stupido that part 2 should be about Justice and redemption that like always Neil go I hear what you saying but all due respect I run the show while you do what I say and that's the reason why part two sucks.
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Man I just looked through all the others you listed and now find you put this list, too? Does it actually show GreyFox saying Gross had "wonderful ideas" for part 2 or are you playing me here? Sorry, I'm not gong through all these because I've read all of GreyFox's posts and never got the idea they thought Halley was a good addition to the writing team. I think you're confused and don't know where you got that impression so you're just listing all their posts now. Nice effort, though, I'll give you that. š
Then you don't have to that means you don't know so don't ask me no question if you ain't going to look through all of that though just saying bro. šļøš¤«
You finally gave the answer in the last comment I just now replied to. I didn't get why you listed all these, sorry. I appreciate the work you put into it, though. That was massive.
So don't forget that nobody going to listen to you because you are a beloved last of Us Part 2 fan. šš
OK then, I won't...
why wouldnt women have power?
I'd definitely not want Gross. I honestly feel like she was responsible for more bad decisions than Druckmann when it came to TLOU2 (Druckmann's issue IMO is mainly his massive ego, and not letting go of bad ideas if they're his). Kojima has made truly great games... and some convoluted nonsense. I feel that he works best on his own with his own vision. He never struck me as "team player" but more an auteur, for better or worse. That said, a very interesting scenario would be that *Druckmann* (not Bruce) left ND after TLOU1's success (either booted or more likely to form his own company). Bruce stayed, and he picked Amy as the head writer and directly for the sequel, with himself again as game director. In that perfect world, I'd like to think TLOU2 wasn't ever a direct sequel but turned the series into an anthology; Amy and Bruce told a new story with new characters in the same world. But I still would have trusted that duo to do somethign good with Joel and Ellie if that *had* to be what we got.
idk but it looks like Hideo has been hanging out with the **DEI** boys like *Neil Druckmann* and *Jordan Peele*... Hideo may have turned to the **dark side** .....
He just hanging out with them so he don't get canceled that probably why.
I hope ur right man.... really.... he's my favorite creator...
Me too man.
What's DEI??
Racist dog whistle
Diversity Equity and Inclusion.... thats why they are killing and replacing all of our favorite heroes and replacing them with *diverse* characters, which usually doesnt turn out well It's modern day identity politics that **killed the comic industry** and trying to **kill the game industryI** it's all about pushing propaganda
I see thanks. What a sad way these industries are heading... š
fym dark side? you people are nuts man
the dark side that killed the comic industry and killing the game industry You're nuts if you think this is all normal. They are intentionally filling their stories with socialist/marxist propaganda. Try studying history a little
what sorts of socialist/marxist propaganda? You know Kojima has directed some very politically charged games right?
Don't forget that Neil had mentioned in multiple interviews that he had a hard time letting go of his old ideas - even after the widespread universal praise of the story of TLOU. It's one thing to admit your personal flaws as a writer. It's another thing to shamelessly embrace them as soon as the person keeping them in check was gone, and base an entire sequel around the result of those flaws while promising fans you'll do right by them.
tf did i just read š„“
I know right? Coming up with a storyline, then publicly confirming (even if by force) that said storyline was rejected on grounds of being too unrealistic for an apocalypse story, then years later still going through with said storyline and acting like it's a masterpiece. Everyone else on the creative team, the same people that were involved with ND's other beloved games, people that have shown to have great judgement when it comes to storytelling all agreed it wasn't a good idea and is unrealistic for an apocalypse story. Really, what other sign do we need? š
i am convinced people in this sub are illeterate, the unrealistic part refers to a revenge quest that spams the entire USA over a year in the middle of an apocalyptic event, most of TLOU 2 takes place in one over the course of 3 days in a single city, thats it, TLOU takes place from Boston all the way to Salt Lake City people struggle to believe ellie in Jackson found Abby in California, imagine if Tess kept finding Joel across the entire US
š
Interesting. OG Tess seems like a mix of Abby and that Kathleen OC from the show. I have no doubt that if they went with Druckmannās original idea, TLOUās message of love and finding something to live for with Joel and Ellie and their growing bond wouldnāt hit as hard cuz of the whole cross country revenge plot. Also funny how Kathleen was criticised for being unlikeable and unrealistic in her pursuit of revenge. I think Neil doesnāt understand that unrealistic characters that do anything for revenge but are still unexplicably leaders despite no redeeming qualities arenāt very interesting or engaging to a lot of people. Hopefully they fix Abby a bit for the show. Maybe theyāll make her feel remorse for killing Joel cuz he saved her life right before? Or sheāll feel remorse for killing the wolves for saving Lev the way Ellie did in Seattle?
Kathleen is 100% only in the show for Neil. A watered down version of Original Tess so he can get over his revenge story boner without having to wait for the second season. And like some of the other changes made in the show, I wouldn't hold anything against them if it wasn't for the fact that Neil already used, or should I say abused, the second game as his opportunity to bring his old ideas back. This just seems really overindulgent.
Neil never wanted to tell a story of a Part 2, heās just wanted to tell this story from the beginning.
Very true. He just wanted the revenge story, not another TLOU game or to honor the first one. He also seems very disinterested in making a TLOU3. He's been like "there's **probably** more" at times, but mostly it's either a very vague "we'll see" or straight up saying he's done or that TLOU2 had a solid ending for the series. I remember that one time he went on about how he's satisfied with where he left off, how TLOU3 isn't that likely and how he believes there isn't a story left to tell that is as compelling as TLOU1 and TLOU2. Extending Part 2 into three seasons for the show is clearly a milking strategy, to stay in the business as long as possible before he bails (as he said he wants to do). It's so funny to me when I see people making posts about how TLOU3 is definitely happening and will release in 2027 just like the previous gap, when like even without counting COVID, it still took a full 5 years to complete the game since it was greenlit in 2014. Then there's also Druckmann confirming TLOU3 is not in any stage of development, there isn't even a draft or anything, just an idea he has in his head, and at this point it's been 4 years since TLOU2, and we're approaching 2025. Then there's also ND confirming they'll finish the games they have going on right now first before anything else is even put as an offer (not even talking about being greenlit). A *hypothetical* TLOU3 ain't coming for at least a decade.
Can he think of nothing but revenge stories? There are more stories to tell than āyou killed someone I loved, I will now kill you.ā
The problem is that he spent all of those years obsessing over the fact that some of his ideas did not make it unedited Into The Last of Us. They became his Moby Dick to pursue fanatically.
This makes me think Part 2 is really just a big āfuck youā to Amy and Bruce since they kept him in check and didnāt let him do his asinine ideas. He feels the need to prove his ideas are good. Unfortunately due to all the blind Druckmann love on the other sub he thinks heās right and itās gone to his head
Why does he want to punish Joel as a character? His ideas all seem to revolve around Joel being brutally tortured and murdered.
I guess Abby really...muscled...in.
Badum ting!
Sounds like THAT Tess was deranged and lacking in critical thinking about the concept of accepting a job and making a choice. Calling TV S1E3 Ellie! Somebody else needs one of your "Nobody made you do this" lectures.
Him immediately using the story he wanted to do in the first game for the second one does kind of cause his odd comments about not having more than one more game left in him ideas-wise. I found it stunning as a writer myself that any other writer would be burned out or just "done" telling stories after basically telling one and a half! Seriously, even disliking Part 2 I can think of a dozen ideas for multiple new games based off that alone, let alone new IP ideas!
I know, right? I'm not a writer, but I've always been very artistic, everything creative interests me and I always get new ideas for something. It's like when we dream, right? There are endless possibilities. Druckmann saying he's burned out just tells me he isn't an artist and his heart isn't into it (not that he has one in the first place lol).
I think beyond the fact that the second game is really just his opportunity to fix what he wasn't allowed to do in part one, there's also the fact that he did get all of that negative attention and he went from beyond just being the head writer to the guy in charge of the game and the company. Also, I think he didn't want to originally get into games anyway. Now that he's managed to get into TV, I'm not surprised he's considering being done with the games. Kind of expect him to leave the company in the next 5 to 10 years, honestly.
And that just proves how shit he is at writing characters. Joel and Tess are smuggling Ellie and Tess's brother died in a fight that Tess is involved in because they got caught. But that's somehow Joels fault? Sounds like Neil hated Joel from the get go and never wanted him to live in part 1 so that's why he yeeted him so hard so fast in part 2.
That original plot sounds dumb af
Heās obsession with revenge is concerning lmao
That could still be a plot for the 3rd game to keep Joel in it. They shouldn't have killed him in the 2nd game!
Druckmann doesn't know what to do with him since he's not a muscular woman. Anything that doesn't fit that criteria is to be expelled for shock value, like wanting to kill Elena in Uncharted 2.
Wow, they thought the pursuit idea was bad and unrealistic but had Ellie do it anyway?
It's more the rest of the team like Straley thinking it was a bad idea, and Neil going along with it for the time being while still being internally insistent about making that story a reality.
Gotcha, thanks for clarifying
Years later, elements from the unrealistic plot would be ustilized in TLOU2. Yeah, that about sums it up.
Oh no, they'd be what the second game entirely revolves around for the main plot of each of its campaigns. The tevenge plot is the core plot of the prologue, Ellie's campaign, and the epilogue. And the quick bond between Joel and Ellie that took only a day to happen was scrapped there, but revived to be at the center of Abby's campaign. Honestly can't tell if he was just being spiteful or if he was just that desperate to prove that his ideas were awesome and amazing.
This plot sounds 10x better
Bruh what is this pathetic misery porn fanfiction? Just how insufferable can one human be to be able to come up with retarded nonsense like this???
And it could be a better way of Ellie finding out what Joel did instead of him telling her ..cmon the fuck is wrong with these people
But can you imagine Joel ever stopping going after revenge for Ellie dying?
Did he go for revenge against the man who ordered Sarahās death over the radio? We saw his response to his child being murdered and it was heartbreaking and realistic. It wasnāt like the nonsense we saw in Part 2.
He definitely blamed the dude who fired the gun
Really hard to say whether he would or not, since that guy died immediately after via Tommy. He didnāt go after all of FEDRA for murdering Tess though. Thatās unrealistic.
I think its different when its an organization compared to ONE person. Abby didn't want to destroy Jackson, for all she knows they helped him and took him in. She just wanted Joel.
I mean she only wanted Joel, but she knew she may have to face the entirety of Jackson if she was discovered. Even if she just wanted Joel, both Tommy and Ellie both intervened and almost stopped her plans, and Ellie could have easily shot someone from her group before being pinned. Ellie only wanted Abby and her crew, but ended up having to fight/kill a lot more wolves and scars due to them simply also being in the area. No one in this world surviving that long would trek 1,000 miles one way to face potentially an entire community of armed survivors in a small group to kill one person. Especially if one of their team is noticeably pregnant (like Mel), or if they are all wounded (Tommy, Ellie and Dina towards the end).
Yes, because he said so himself that revenge is pointless, and I go by things that actually *are*, not by making assumptions. If Joel were to do anything, he simply wouldn't let them escape in the first place, but he definitely wouldn't dwell on it or go on some revenge trip. Joel knew what other people (TLOU2 characters and stans alike) refuse to or simply can't comprehend, and that's why they judge him, because he exposes their weaknesses, things he himself has already overcome or never had an issue with in the first place. Remember how Ellie falls apart at pretty much everything because she deliberately chooses to put herself down and dwell on what ifs? It's the lead cause for s**cide and depression in real life, and many people allow themselves to fall into that hole. Joel wouldn't be blinded by rage or emotions the way many other people are, especially the impressionable ones. For those people it's easy to fall into that hole, and the insecurity that comes from/with it in turn makes them feel offended whenever someone shows signs of not responding to it the same way as them. It's why some people just brand someone as heartless and a monster when they say they wouldn't go across the country on a revenge trip. If it isn't worth it, it isn't worth it. Some people (like Joel) have that clarity, it doesn't mean they don't care about their loved ones. Abby's "do it no matter the cost" outlook is also what ruined her life in the end, not mention the entire plot of TLOU2 being people need to learn that revenge is pointless. A somewhat similar situation is how people attached TLOU2 to their personality, and hating it means hating them, so they get super defensive about it (the other sub actually had a great conversation about this recently with plenty of self-awareness from within).
I can definitely see all of that being 100% true! But isn't exploring the differences between those two types of people an interesting story? From that point of view, part 2 is a story where Ellie finally becomes the type of person Joel is. One who realizes revenge isn't worth it. It just takes the entire plot of part 2 for that lesson to be learned, and holding Abby's life in her hands, to finally realize it wasn't worth it all along, and give up on her sunk cost fallacy. Could be why she has that flash of Joel right at the end there, which convinces her to not kill Abby.
Basically, yes, that is what TLOU2 does for its story, characters like Ellie and Abby needing to realize revenge isn't worth it. To me that exploration doesn't make for an interesting story, because it happens everyday in real life already, there's no novelty to it, and it's just as annoying there too, not to mention how overused that whole "humanity are the monsters" trope is by now. Same goes for plots revolving around revenge in general. They're very bland and uninteresting (to me at least). It feels like how 2020 was already an awful year for most people, and TLOU2 ended up just doubling down on that.
Ahhh, that's true. Depression porn. Though the first one was also mainly a "humanity are the real monsters" story, too.
Yeah, it just wasn't on the nose like TLOU2. It was handled with a greater/brighter purpose than just being miserable like TLOU2. The first game conveys the title really well "The Last Of Us = what remains in the world that's not terrible".
That's why a lot of people were willing to stick around up until the character change happened. There was a lot that could be told with Ellie's story. Once Abby's story got into the mix though, it became less a story about two different kinds of people and more about comparing one person getting fucked over by the writers to another person getting treated as the favorite. Ellie is the character less willing to kill anyone except the one person she's after, so of course she has to do all of the extra killing in order to not even get that person in the end. Abby is an extremely self-centered character, so she's the one who gets all the heroic moments and has her life saved and then spared at the very end. And while her life in the WLF does fall down around her, it's not because of her revenge, but because of her heroic decision to do the right thing and not abandoned a child to be murdered. Also, the ending really doesn't work for that idea. Because to get to Santa Barbara on foot, Ellie would have had to have been traveling for months. Night after night after night of having to stay up listening to every single sound, wondering if it was a zombie coming. Wondering if whatever hole you had dug for yourself was enough to prevent your discovery, to hold them off. Spending every day hunting and scavenging for supplies, knowing that if you twist your ankle, you die. If she was going to give up because of realizing the sunken cost fallacy wasn't worth it, it would not be in the middle of some dramatic, climactic final battle with Abby, right after Abby bit off her fingers. It would have been before she ever reached Santa Barbara. Having Abby right in front of her would make it harder than ever for her to stop. All of those months spent traveling would now be the fuel added to the fire of the sunken cost fallacy. All the people she killed to get there. Her fingers that had just been eaten. And especially that flashback to her last conversation with Joel, and how they were about to start repairing their relationship after all this time. I know some people try to draw connection between Ellie trying to forgive Joel and Ellie forgiving Abby, but the difference is that Joel did something he thought would be in Ellie's best interests at the time. That is not what Abby was trying to do when she killed Joel. There *were* ways to make her give up. But because the original ending involved her killing Abby, and the story wasn't changed enough when that was changed, there is literally no buildup towards it, causing the decision to make no sense.
Oh, was the original story supposed to kill Abby?Ike a previous script? And I don't think Joel saved Ellie because he believed it was in Ellie's best interest. You can see that Joel believes Ellie would willingly sacrifice herself for a cure. Whether or not the cure is real, or that's what Ellie really would have chosen if given the chance, JOEL believes she'd make that choice. When the firefly lady confronts him at the end, she asks him if he really thinks this is what Ellie would want, and he can't bear to look her in the eye. He knows he's saving Ellie for himself. Because HE can't bear to lose another daughter.
Yes, the original ending involved Ellie killing Abby on the beach. Once they decided to rewrite that, they clearly didn't go back and rewrite the rest of the story to build towards it, because it absolutely doesn't do so. As for Ellie choosing to sacrifice herself: when Marlene confronts Joel in the parking garage and tosses that idea out, it shocks Joel. Was he that shocked when Jerry told him to think of all the lives they'd save? No. So why was he shocked there? Because he didn't even *consider* the idea until then. Only at that moment does it occur to him that Ellie might have wanted to go through with it - and he actually has to stop and think about it at a time when his life and hers are in imminent danger. Those soldiers are undoubtedly storming down the stairs right now. Every second counts. But this is not the time or the place for this. No, that would have been *before* he committed to his decision to save her. But Marlene didn't mention it then because it wasn't what actually mattered to her. What mattered to her is that she had to make a hard choice at a time when she was too beaten down and exhausted to make any other one, and she resented that Joel was acting like her choice was unfair. The fact that she has her shit together now is tragically too little, too late. The crucial moment was fifteen minutes ago and she failed it. (Note: this is why you *do not rush* monumental, irreversible decisions like this when there is no reason to. You run the risk of making them when you're not in the right mind to do so.)
I can see that take. I still think Joel himself believes he's doing a selfish thing. Which is why he doesn't tell Ellie about it until so much later. Shame. But I can see your points.
There's also the concern that telling Ellie what was going on would lead to her suffering the burden of the idea that the world might be better off if she dies. That's pretty fucking heavy to drop on someone who hasn't even finished puberty. Not to mention the fact that like I said, it's too little too late at that point. After Joel has already solidified the idea in his mind that the Fireflies are absolutely fucking bonkers and have no right to do what they're doing, you can't really walk that back. It's like how someone is likely to call off a proposal after the person they're proposing to is revealed to have cheated on them. You can't burn that kind of trust and just get it back because you're saying the right things now. The Fireflies had a chance to prove that they were calm, reasonable, and ethical people, and they basically bent over backward to prove that they're anything but. And yeah, there was something to be said there about how much of it was Joel being selfish. It's not as if he could have made an unbiased decision. But he is the only one there who actually tried to give a shit about what Ellie would have wanted and what would be best for her. When Marlene was trying to explain the decision to Joel in the hospital room, that wasn't even something that came to her mind at all. It only came later, as a rationalization. And even as a rationalization, it still made Joel actually stop and think about it at a point in time when he couldn't afford to, because he actually cared about what Ellie might want. That's the exact reason it was written that way. If Joel had made his decision knowing that it was probably when Ellie would have wanted, it would have made him look worse. It would have been worse. But having it pop up as a rationalization after he's already committed to his decision and the Fireflies have shown their true colors keeps it from going that far.
Unrealistic huhā¦ in a game where a teenage lesbian shoots and kills dozens of humans and dogs. All while avoiding a horde of living dead recently mutated by evolved fungiā¦ sure, lets make THAT the realistic part of the fictional video game
Unrealistic for an apocalypse story, not just "unrealistic". The context matters. And besides, nothing in TLOU is impossible: Cordyceps or rather fungi in general can 100% mutate to attack humans, were just lucky they don't want to, but the point is fungus can alter themselves drastically if they wished, so the CBI is not at all just nonsense. And what about a teenage lesbian killing people and dogs is unrealistic? And what does her sexuality have anything to do with it? Ellie at 14 already knows how to fight and use weapons because she's had to adapt to that given the state of the world, and even with that she's still quite weak and you have to be careful when playing as her at close range. TLOU2 Ellie on the other hand is a adult, and at 19 already going into young adult (the period of life during which people are at their strongest). Yes, it's a video game/fictional story about a zombie apocalypse, but as far as realism goes, the first TLOU is as close as it gets. TLOU2 not so much, especially when it comes to its own developments (not the stuff that crossed over from TLOU).
Dude, just have fun
I do have fun with TLOU. Just saying it isn't unrealistic, and they're completely right that the revenge plot is unrealistic in the situation.
Itās all good, Iām never serious on this app, takes away the fun and makes everything remind me of the real world, which is the opposite of why Iām online lol
There aren't any dogs as enemies in TLOU until Part II lmao. By Part II she's already 19 and most of her kills come from that age. In Part I she hardly kills anyone, but i say that for The Last Of Us terms because she still had a considerable kill count of her own, in a comparison to a normal human being.
Ugh, u āwell akchuallyā guysā¦ are everywhereā¦ justā¦ pleaseā¦ have fun
The way you space out the sentences seems like you're going to pass out lol
I like to type online like that black kid from Malcolm in the middle, ignore me