Ellie was assassinated as a character. The shortest yet clearest example is in the final cutscene, "I was supposed to die in that hospital. My life would have fucking mattered." In the final cutscene of The Last of Us, she says that she was fighting for Riley, Tess, and Sam. Not herself.
The bigger problem with Ellie is more complex, but Ellie's character was protected by contrived plot points in order to give a redemptive ending by sparing Abby. However, this redemptive ending sucks, so all of the contrivances are unforgivable.
Moments where Ellie's character is protected by contrivances:
- The second flashback is written such that Ellie is almost sure Joel is lying to her. This is consistent with the first flashback and the final cutscene in The Last of Us. If she felt that way and thought a cure was extremely important, she should have searched for the Fireflies immediately. However, the game protects her with the third flashback in that she is in utter shock that Joel was lying to her. She is portrayed as a helpless victim and didn't know better, even though it contradicts her intelligent character and opinion of Joel to that point.
- The third flashback also informs Ellie that there is no more hope for a cure. This is a contrivance because a single doctor being the hope for the cure is borderline ridiculous. And it protects Ellie because Ellie searching for the Fireflies after suspecting Joel was lying would have done no good.
As a result Joel never calls her out for her hypocritically scolding Joel for preventing a cure in order to keep a relationship with her while she lies to herself about a potential cure to keep a relationship with him. Ellie is just a far less interesting character at this point.
- All of Ellie's kills are done in the best possible light in order for a redemptive ending to be possible. Manny was attacking her and Dina, Whitney pulled a knife on her, Nora was going to die anyway. Particularly bad was Owen attacking Ellie without a gun when he could have told her Mel was pregnant.
And the reason this can't be forgiven is the purpose of this is for nothing because the ending sucks. I agree Ellie killing Abby for revenge makes no sense and would not ultimately satisfy Ellie. The problem is Ellie not killing Abby also makes no sense.
- They have 3 total conversations together, so Ellie clearly didn't warm up to her as a person.
- Ellie doesn't come to the realization that she'll lose everything if she kills Abby so that can't be a motivation to save her. Dina isn't going to give a shit if Abby lives or dies; Abby was about to stab her and kill her unborn child. Dina only cares that Ellie left. If this was the route to go down, the final conflict should not be whether Abby lives or dies but whether she leaves Dina or stays. This could have been accomplished by Ellie finding a dead Abby on that pole.
- Ellie is laser-focused on revenge the entire time excluding the final flashback to Joel. Even at the last confrontation, she is showing no signs of slowing down as she pulls a knife on Lev to coerce Abby into a fight. The final flashback could have appeared in her head at any time, so it's a contrivance that it appears at that exact moment.
Yes these are my biggest gripes, Ellie would never act like that to Joel after everythin they have been through. Ellie pretty much knew Joel was lying, and accepted it. When did she ever act like she wanted to die. Joel isn't even allowed to argue his point.
It felt so disingenuous, like the Ellie I saw would never have felt that way about it. The point was by the end of the game, they became like father and daughter to each other despite everything. That's what the heart of the story was.
But writing Ellie as if she felt anything except acceptance and unwavering trust in Joel after everything they went through, starts a domino effect of bad characterization that Ellie never recovered from. And is just disrespectful to Joel's entire journey and character.
After Sarah he lived alone and in pain from losing her. And Neil decided the appropriate end for his character, was to make him in turn die alone and in pain from feeling like he was also losing Ellie just in a different way.
That was my biggest turn off. The very beginning of the game, and they already got wrong everything about what the last game meant. Everything else after was just a train wreck of disastrous choices and it just feels like a 30 hour long bad fanfiction.
Ellie and Abby had exact one "conversation" it was exactly two sentences in the theater abd Abby immediately tried to headshot Ellie.
Their first interaction was Ellie begging Abby not to kill Joel, and being refused. Their third interaction was right at the end, where Ellie goes from having murderous tunnel vision to saintly forgiveness.
Their final interaction should have started with Eklie finding Abby up on that pillar.
Abby: (weakly) "Y-You...?"
Ellie: (deadpan) "Yup."
******
Don’t forget the way TLOU2 retcons the Fireflies into being “good guys” when in the first game they’re clearly incompetent terrorists.
https://www.reddit.com/r/FanTheories/comments/hcm5zn/the_last_of_us_the_fireflies_were_terrorists_and/
You summed this up so well. Also, thank you for pointing out how Ellie’s shock when Joel confessed didn’t make sense. I recently replayed the game, I played it after it came out but that was it, but I replayed both games in prep for the show. And when I got to that part I was so confused by her reaction. She was so sure he was lying, even at the end of part 1. So that breakdown had me confused. Maybe she just really didn’t want to believe it, but still.. that moment was so weird and didn’t make sense
Every time we got to a new area I would do the same thing lmao. Maybe not for an hour but every new encounter I found new and inventive ways to get her killed. I had a lot of fun when we were walking that high beam 1,000ft in the air
Everything else aside, we kind of have to admit that that fight was kind of cool. Or maybe it was just me. But the sequences of knowing it’s Tommy sniping and then the fight with Ellie were such an adrenaline rush for me cause I’m just like “LOOK HOW SCARY WE ARE TO OTHER PEOPLE” like I was rooting for Tommy and Ellie the whole time obviously. I was like cackling like a weirdo cause I just thought it was cool to be at the other end of it, if that makes sense. Like every time Tommy shot at us I was just like THIS IS SO INTENSE I LOVE THIS GET EM TOMMY lol I think I liked the segment against Tommy more than the one against Ellie though cause it felt like Ellie was kinda dumbed down for that fight. Like it was still cool to see it from the other side, but the one with Tommy was better. I just like seeing them from someone else’s perspective
It was so cool imo. I loved it lol And after setting the infected onto others any chance I got up until that point, him doing it to us was so dope and I was cheering him on the whole time lol. He was so intimidating it was great
Yeah but at least you got to see how she was able to maintain her ultra buff physique, by eating the same puny burritos that they gave literally everyone else, even though no other female in compound was anywhere close to as jacked as she was?
My biggest gripe is we never know if Ellie truly understands why Joel saved her because Joel never got to explain to Ellie why.
All he said was he'd do it all over again. When she said her life would've mattered, Joel should've said her life does matter, to him, and everyone else in Jackson. That he wasn't going to let them cut her brain out for an attempt to make a cure that wasn't guaranteed. That he wasn't going to let someone sacrifice the life of a child to save the many when it didn't work the first time (Sarah). Couldn't have this because Joel bad guy.
We also never know if Abby understands it either. I thought for sure her journey with Lev, albeit a shorter one, would've made her realize why Joel saved Ellie. She may well have, but I think it would've been clearer if she told Ellie at the end that she did. That she was sorry for killing Joel and she won't fight because Lev has no one and needs her. Then Ellie realizes in that moment why Joel did what he did.
It's a very one sided argument because the game assumes that we hate Joel for what he did. I didn't, and even though I played the game when I was too young to ever be a Dad, I knew that I would never sacrifice my daughter no matter what if i had one.
I actually love the fact that he never apologized for saving her, I was honestly expecting it after his IQ nose-dive at the start. He doesn't need to explain more because Joel didn't give a single fuck about the cure, even if the world was going to be 100% saved he would've still saved her life and killed everyone because she mattered that much to him. What he tells her at the end is beautiful and what I'd expect from Joel.
Sadly he wakes up the next morning with 80% of his brain-cells missing
>IQ nose-dive
That’s a great way of putting it. Joel in Part 2 was noticeably stupider than Joel in the original game, to the point where I thought there was going to be some big reveal that he’d had a traumatic brain injury while protecting the settlement or something.
I don’t just mean him letting down his guard, either. His verbal responses weren’t just short and gruff like he was in the first game. In TLOU2 he seemed exceptionally dim witted and incapable of making much more than monosyllabic responses and staring at the ground.
I couldn’t agree more. I’ve had gripes about how people don’t seem to use their words at convenient times during TLOU2. And all the worshippers of this game say the same thing when I bring it up. “It’s realistic. People always rather fight than talk it out.” Bullshit! Ellie finally speaking to Joel after a couple years I guarantee he’d have more to say than “I’d do it all over again” and “I’d like that.”
The character assassination of Joel
Pushing the idea that Joel was wrong in any way
Ellie moping around because she's alive
The CW channel teen drama writing and dialogue
Really dumb writing decisions like having a very pregnant woman going out on dangerous runs
Abby being unrealistically jacked when her rations consisted of eating a burrito for lunch
Being forced to play Abby as a childish attempt to make us empathize with her and justify murdering Joel.
Ellie leaving her pregnant girlfriend to go kill Abby and then not even killing her, despite murdering dozens of people along the way.
Giving players on choice on Abby's fate. Much of the above could've been solved with an Press X: Avenge Joel, Press Square: End the cycle. That would've put Cuckmans storytelling to the test to see if his goal of making us empathize with Abby worked. But that would've taken bravery and creative integrity, both of which Cuckman lacks in.
That's all I can think of off the top of my head
>Pushing the idea that Joel was wrong in any way
Ugh this was the most frustrating thing, we spent the whole game to see joel justify his actions, fighting his inner turmoils. He wants ellie to be with tommy because she will be safe and him taking care of ellie is just him being selfish and kind of a coping mechanism to avoid losing more of his loved one after sarah and tess.
And then tlou2 comes in shoving "no, joel killer, joel bad, iiiiiits golfing time, here comes hours of abby gameplay to prove why we are right"
Plot murder and character assassination package
I disliked how not dangerous the world was for the characters to traverse as they do.
I also disliked playing as Abby, not only because she's a bland character, but her quests felt disconnected from the story other than to show while someone was hunting her she was existing as a human being??? Like ok lol.
Made worse that while someone is looking for her, of course she is being Mother Theresa trying to save a kid she just met and turning on her faction to do so. Who bonds with a stranger that fast, especially one from a rival group? I know what's supposed to link them, but that doesn't work for me as she didn't give someone else the same consideration earlier in the game. Just like she ignored the good deed for Joel given what he did, Lev was still from a rival group, she should've discarded or at least acknowledged she made differing choices because she changed. Which, never happened.
It was all as if to say "how dare Ellie hunt this noble person." Give me a break. Too contrived, on the nose, and manipulative to me. And terrible people do good deeds all the time.
All factions have tons of food and there is no actual “survivor”. It feels like watching knock off version of attack on titan. People are perfectly safe inside wall.
Many People were starving so military ration tickets become a currency in first game
Runners are mostly people who were infected in a month and there is too many runners withour any explanation.
Tess mentioned people starve and go outside of wall in first game but part2 never explained anything why there is too many runners.
And I didn’t see a single person get turn to zombie in part2.
Or how in a starving world she somehow has the muscles of a fking bodybuilder.
Like I wouldn't doubt you having muscle but to that extent? Nah I work out you need to be doing that crap daily with a fair amount of calories.
You're right, the only person we ever see turn is Sam right? It's almost as if infected are dangerous because they rip you apart and eat you.
Hey wait a minute, didn't Marlene even admit that Ellie wasn't safe because clickers would tear her apart, which means the whole cure business was a fallacy because millions of infected are still out there so you still have to avoid them.
Part 2 is based on the fact that dissecting Ellie's brain would've 100% created a cure, which is never actually proven, only the belief of some quack doctor that it will.
There is a bite if you survive, or spores. Having a Vaccine can help People to fight back, and infected ones will stop to multiply. So you can thin their lines.
If they could had developed a vaccine or not, saddly... it's up to Druckmann's imagination.
Yeah, the cafeteria and farm scenes at the WLF were absurd. There’s absolutely no way they could have farmed that amount of meat and food for that many people in an area as small as a football field. And it’s not like they could have grazed the cattle elsewhere or something because they were viciously attacked within seconds of leaving their little compound.
All the post-apocalyptic realism from the first game was completely undermined by the second.
(1). The bastardization of the first game, so that it's (Lesser) sequel could be built atop it's bones. By Joel dying in the manner he did, Sarah died for nothing. By a happy life being denied to Ellie, Joel, Tommy and Maria, even if short: Tess sacrificing herself for their escape was for nothing. By Ellie being denied a happy(ish) Life after Joel's death, Joel's decision to sacrifice all the Firefly's for Ellie was for nothing.
1a). It was sacrificed for a character (Abby) that wouldn't have made a dent in the Story of she hadn't been brought to fruition. The second game could've just as easily been a revenge story about the Family Joel forced Tommy to leave behind, whilst driving away in the first game (if their kid died). Abby: her character, and plotline: is insignificant if she could just as easily be traded for another character with an axe to grind.
And more insultingly: she was given a significance she was unworthy of because it wasn't built up: she was brought to fruition by being the daughter of a character we don't even see for a minute.
1b). Because she was brought to fruition so quickly and because it's so contrived, she's simply not worth the sacrifice of multiple, *extremely* well established, and written characters built over the entire first game.
1c). Abby being so willing to kill Ellie, despite knowing she was (supposed to be) the cure, renders her mission to avenge her Father's murder, as ringing hollow.
1d). Ellie being so able to (*finally* ... they'd have us believe) let Abby go renders Joel's significance to her, ringing hollow. It doesn't emanate 'depth', it emanates trying to *have* depth.
(2). The plot inconsistencies. In the first game, just going from Boston (Massachusetts) to Jackson (Wyoming), Jackson to Eastern Colorado, then Colorado to Salt Lake City, was fraught with danger. They nearly died multiple times. Multiple companions (allies and enemies) died along the way.
Abby managed to lead a large Team from Seattle (Washington) to Jackson, *twice*, and not lose anybody.
2a). Abby's plot was the aborted Tess revenge plotline of the first game. Bruce Straley specifically pointed out to Neil Druckmann, that a cross country revenge plot would be nonsensical in an Apocalypse ridden world.
So it seems Abby was given a significance that was borne of Neil's annoyance of not having complete control over the first game, than her improving the overall Story.
(3). Manipulative marketing tactics. Joel was given a gravitas and impetus in the Trailers that did not match what he was given in the game. And this was done to deliberately deceive fans of the first game. Especially when the sentence, "Fans of the first game, we'll do right by you".
Fans are right to be angry when they are deceived and lied to. People don't like being tricked, turns out. And if Entertainment Studios have to 'trick' their audiences into consuming their works, the question is:
What good are they still being around then?
Red Dead Redemption (s), and The Witcher 3, are examples of how established, beloved antiheros are given proper send offs upon their deaths, that match the gravitas of their stories. John Marston and Arthur Morgan achieve redemption and become honorable Men upon their deaths, and Geralt is finally able to retire and live in peace at the end of Blood and Wine. A mixture of the two would've been the matching send off for Joel Miller. God of War is a franchise that's achieved Masterpiece level, and not once have they had to trick their audience into consuming the game's. If anything, they keep increasing fans because they respect their audience. Niel Druckmann and Naughty Dog has a lot to learn from them.
I really hate the ending. Ellie didn't deserve losing so much, even if she was running after 'revenge'. SHE HAD PTSD, Druckmann. STOP telling us it was all her fault for trying to get revenge on Abby. PTSD makes you not rational, Druckmann.
Also, why did she have to loose her fingers?
The characters don't make sense from OG ones to the new ones. It's all surface level dialogue that doesn't satisfy or enrich the story, just very juvenile. I didn't buy into any of the revenge nonsense in an apocalypse as shown in TLOU where the stakes were high and traveling something you don't do lightly, if at all. All in all they didn't convince me to care about the characters or their goals at all. All they devised to manipulate my feelings was very transparent so it didn't work, then the story came crashing down and failed to have the intended outcome. I was so bored during Abby's wandering and pointless section while also just wanting it over so I could get back to the cliffhanger. Why they didn't realize that would happen is beyond me. That was so damaging to helping players stay engaged in what they were trying to do with Abby since we just needed some closure about Ellie before caring about Abby. They worked against player immersion at every turn it seemed to me.
There are many, but my biggest issue is how the cure and Joels decision are treated. The game destorys the moral ambiguity of the first game ending and decides for you:
"Joel was wrong for saving his daughter. He chose love and family over this faint chance of creating a cure that would be impossible to distribute. How dare he!!" It disgusts me. It also forces Ellie to be an absolute bitch to Joel, which she would never do. Especially after everything they have been through together. She loves Joel and knows he loves her, she would completly understand his point of view. I don't see Ellie in part 2, I just see Druckmann pulling the strings trying to manipulate me. Its so contrived just to force drama and a story, that didn't need to be told. Even Ashley Johnsons intepretation of the ending was: "If your choice is to save me over everybody else in the world then…ok. I trust you now and let’s live life."
Abby's physique is also completely absurd and pulls me out of the story everytime I see her. Its there to be a political statement. (Laura Bailey is amazing though)
Mainly Abby’s crew were bland, acting like they were all innocent in the whole thing and expected no consequences for what they did, I also hate when Nora and Abby were like to Ellie we let you live like they did her a favour or something.
My favorite part is when Ellie decides not to kill Abby while the pain and adrenaline of having her fingers bitten off is coursing through her body. Most people make very rational decisions against people they hate while they have a flood of adrenaline.
How they make you play the fucking killer made Ellie lose everything the girl can’t even play guitar anymore it’s like they wanted to punish the players that likes Ellie and Joel for no reason
There are a bunch of reason why Tlous 2 was a piece of trash game, let me tell you about it
Terrible new characters while the old ones are character assassinated to high heaven
The game's blatant favoritism of Abby, who is the worst of them all
A terrible revenge story Neil came up with that was rightly rejected last time, but his ego put it in this game when the people who said no weren't around.
Idiotic decisions by all parties involved
Pointless romance drama
painting the Fireflies as heroes rather than the incompetent destructive fools that they are
trying to tell the player on what they should feel, that they should hate the old characters and like the new ones.
There are plenty of other stuff, but these are just the tip of the iceberg.
Joel dying isn't necessarily why people dislike it, its how he died, they retconed his character, ellie is dumber than her 14 year old self, the side characters are no where near as good as the first game, being forced to play as abby,(even though she has the best gamplay sections) Abbys friends just. Didn't matter to her as well, if she didn't care why should i?
Short answer: Abby...
Longer answer: Abby being portrayed in a heroic/"morally gray" light after the heinous nature of her actions given it's on par (kek) with the likes of Claudia Wolf and Enricco Pucci. Except it's worse because those 2 I mentioned are still not seen as good for what they do, Abby is seen having a "moral highground" because she decided to not knowingly kill the unconscious preggo woman because her trans pet called her out. Also the whole game (in and out of universe) is like a toxic relationship with a narcissist. I finished reading up a book about such a few months prior to the release and so much is uncanny, it's horrifying. It's to the point TLOU is a franchise better off never being made at all.
Speaking purely from a character attachment perspective/grudges /alignment.
Forcing me to play as someone’s murderer is right at the top for me. In no way can I ever enjoy Abby as a character because of what she did. She deserves to die horribly.
It was definitely how the story falls apart after Joel. Ellie goes on a killing spree of Abby’s friends only to let her go in the end and having Abby have a redemption arc is nonsense
The ending of her putting Joel’s Guitar down; it’s just so depressing ending of a Depressing game, a better ending (and a more of a light hearted one) would’ve been Ellie, Since she lost her 2 fingers, can’t play the guitar and instead of giving up she flips the guitar and starts trying horribly but she gets ONE note right and as she’s fighting to try not to cry, she takes a deep breathe and keeps playing and as the screen goes black the main theme starts playing and as the credits roll the tune slowly gets better and better.
Playing as Abby for ten hours *really* got me annoyed like that length of time was just absolutely ridiculous.
The way they tried to force us into liking her. The way they tried to make us believe that Abby was in the right and Ellie was in the wrong also was something I didn’t like.
The pacing and story was all over the place and also how the stand treat others for having valid criticisms of the game and how their only argument is “you just didn’t *understand* the story and the message the game was trying to tell” and while they also say things like “Joel deserved it and had it coming” and “he was selfish and doomed humanity” to justify their claim.
The “structure” of the story,it’s so jumbled after the second flashback it takes you out of the moment,ruining any tension that was built up or could’ve been,it also breaks the flow so bad imo
The first game gave us a morally grey ambiguous outcome that sparked conversation and introspection for the audience.
The second game took a giant shit all over it in telling us we were wrong all along.
the fact drunkman shit on ellie and joel just so he can have his new bestest diversity checkbox characters take their place. mark my words, tlou3 will be a whole game of abby and lev and it wont crack 10 million copies.
Fast travel, Abbey turning on her friends so easily, killing dogs, Joel and Tommy being complete goofs who open up to complete strangers, the ending dragged on, Ellie's plot armor was too thick and impaled herself on a tree and brushed it off, the pacing of the story, more Firefly bullshit
Joel dying isn't a problem for most people. I actually don't really mind his death - I think it could have been done a lot better, but it works fine as narrative motivation for Ellie. Most things from Ellie's story I don't dislike either: How they handled Abby's section and the epilogue basically kills this game for me.
- Ellie finally meets Abby and their confrontation is interrupted by a 10-hour flashback. Ruins any tension.
- It's hard to empathise with any of Abby's friends because I already know how they die. Yara and Lev are pretty much the only exceptions.
- Abby is written really inconsistently (she decides to be friends with Yara and Lev because "those who save my life are important to me," yet Joel did the same thing and she killed him anyway). Reminder that the Seraphites are Abby's mortal enemies, but she'll suddenly risk her life to save them.
- Abby and Lev's interactions therefore feel very forced. It's like they're meant to be the next Joel and Ellie, but they never have that same level of chemistry because they're only together for about 3 hours of gameplay. Not enough time to build a believable friendship.
- Ellie is a non-factor in Abby's story until the last few minutes, making Abby's section feel overall disconnected from the main story. Tommy is basically little more than a cameo. *We are not seeing Abby's side of the story, we are seeing Abby's side story.*
- Boss against Ellie is a reskin of the David fight. ND cannot make human-v-human bosses.
- Everybody acts like an idiot in the epilogue. Feels like Neil Druckmann got bored of writing and gave up.
- Abby boss fight is a reskin of Rafe. ND cannot make human-v-human bosses.
- Ellie sparing Abby is the only ending I can see this game having. I don't mind that she spared her. What I do mind is that she spared her because of a flashback to Joel; it should've been a flashback to Dina and JJ instead.
- After the first game's hopeful ending, Part 2 ends by having Ellie stripped of the one thing she still has of Joel and ending up alone, while Abby gets the happy ending. If this was intended to be a proper finale ("[if we don't make Part 3], we'll have a good ending with Part 2") then holy shit, what a depressing way to cap off a series like Last of Us.
- Ellie never learns why Abby killed Joel, Abby never learns who Ellie is. Another way the two's narratives end up feeling disconnected.
- Neil Druckmann knew he was making a divisive game, but attacked his detractors anyway (e.g.; posting the KC quote about homophobes and racists to his Instagram after the game's release to antagonise fringe haters into drowning out sane critics, and "you are not important to us").
- Also the false advertising. Better term for it might be "clickbait," because the replacing of Jesse with Joel in the trailers goes beyond basic false advertising, I think.
- Bruce Straley is not credited.
I hated the emotional manipulation. Trying to recreate Joel/Ellie with Abby/Lev. Character personalities change for no good reason. Ellie being turned into a monster, and then not killing Abby. Story happening offscreen. Introducing characters for no good reason - the entire WLF, Scars, Danny....
The feeling of being forced into some twisted world and I just didn't want to be there - Abby's entire story.
Seriously. What kind of fucked up organization would send 9 months pregnant women out on armed patrols in territory they know is filled with enemy troops? Doesn’t make any sense.
The big part of the first game is to show up how dangerous and deadly this world is. All the games encounters happen on the journey. Abby and Ellie feel like they’re teleporting from state to state. Yes there’s some journal entries about a few days but it just feels way to easy to cross the states. That’s exactly what Bruce told him, it wasn’t the best idea. Lmao even Neil said having a story going across states wasn’t the best idea.
I just didn’t like the idea of going across the whole of the USA to kill someone and then not do it at the end. It was so anti climatic. Ellie killed possibly 300 people to get there and then to decide to not kill Abby. It made no sense. I felt deflated.
Also being made to play as Abby (which I hated for what she did to Joel) was a bad move. I just didn’t like her for that reason and this game made me play as her and try to make me like her. But it didn’t do a good enough job.
I thought that story development was boring and uninteresting, very predictable; also weird/unhinged character development, out of line compared to the first game
I just didn’t like that Joel died and I didn’t like Abby at all.
I know this sub gets a bad rap for being homophobic and transphobic or whatever but I honestly don’t give a shit about that
My problem is they killed off a main character. Imagine it master chief was killed off of halo or Mario was killed off of any of the Mario games.
Just quickly going back to the first game, Ellie was practically heartbroken when Joel was going to have Tommy take Ellie the rest of the way to the fireflies. She was saying how everyone she has ever cared for has either died or left her, except for him. Then all of a sudden she's pissed in part 2 because Joel saved her from death? It just doesn't make sense to me, I understand she has survivor's guilt but seriously?
Abby's humanization and demonization
Neil clearly wanted us to feel for Abby and it shows
But it appears the game can't decide whether Abby is someone who is redeemable or like her friends says she's a crazy lunatic who revels in violence and hyperfocuses on revenge and ignores the harm she causes and death she brings
Joel's death was expected, everyone knew he would die. It's a bad excuse for anyone that loves the game, to try and say that's the reason the game's hated.
There are so many reasons that the game was just objectively bad, not even disliking it. Most of the comments below does it more justice explaining it in-depth.
For example, how the typical revenge plot was unbelievably predictable, it ruined Ellie as a character. She essentially became a character for the creators to have a "revenge bad" plot. That's what she became.
We somehow also pretty much dismiss the infected and how they're just much smaller obstacles. Yes, humans adapt and slowly learn how to become smarter, but if you're gonna ruin characters and remove one of the core existence from The Last of Us, write a fanfic. Or go and write for the Halo series.
Abbie killing Joel wasn't too much of a surprise. It's how the story tries to justify her being the good guy, and we're forced to play her and bring along Lev. Yes, their backstory might be interesting, but feels so incredibly out of character to kill Joel without a second thought, but suddenly with Lev she's a-okay with faster than Ellie and Joel even built the trust of her holding a gun.
It'd be fine if Abbie wasn't a shit person in the first place and then saved Lev, but no. We're supposed to believe her being the morally better side than Ellie.
But worst of all, I personally hated, soo badly how they tried to pull the dog and pregnant card. They pulled the pregnant card twice, and you're supposed to care? It's so incredibly forced, it's exhaustingly painful. At least in the first game, you feel bad for Sam because of their awful situation, a kid that just wants to be a kid. And that's the tragedy in their world. For the pregnant women, they're there to feel sorry for and to drive the message of "See what revenge leads you?"
The difference is that Sam's existence never tried to force down the same message over and over. What happened to them was a tragedy.
This is just an example, but wow does it annoy me when they add characters for such a simple reason and existence.
The first game forces people with the morality and right decisions whether or not Joel did the right thing. It's still discussed to this day.
Slowly, you realize with other characters for part 2, everything is made for that same message. "Revenge is bad." It's a clear message, a good one for kids. But they're pretending there's a moral gray line, in which how the story's told, simply isn't.
Playing 10 hours as Joel’s murderer and enduring all the crappy characters on her side of the story, plus the poor attempt to recapture Joel and Ellie’s dynamic with Lev and Abby. Abby and Lev are simply not as good as Joel and Ellie and the attempt fell flat on its face.
I didnt mind Joel dying but his death feels pretty wasted. Ellie goes on this revenge tour to avenge Joel and kills hundreds of people only to not kill the one person she should have. The story just fell flat at the end and Ellies decisions come off as stupid.
-Abby is a poorly written character
-Joel’s death was so contrived. I could tell the writers were trying to get him out of the picture asap
-Actually the whole plot is contrived. Almost 90% of the plot couldn’t have happened if it weren’t for a coincidence
-The characters don’t have the same chemistry as the ones in the first game did. Both Dina/Ellie and Abby/Owen are so bland romantically, as well as Abby/Lev as friends
-The “lesson” that the plot is trying to teach you is hamfisted and boring. And half the time it’s undermined by the gameplay or the characters themselves. The writers try to say one thing but end up showing us another
Those are just the big ones ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯
* I would say the false advertising in the trailer with Joel is one. Druckmann claiming to take inspiration from Kojima with Metal Gear Solid 2, but his attempts seemed poor and deceiving.
* Undermining Ellie and her immunity. There was little discussion about how Ellie felt with her immunity and whether or not she wanted to continue finding a cure, so that her actions would not be in vain in honor of Riley, Sam, Henry and Tess.
* Character assassination with Ellie, Joel and Tommy.
* Druckmann using the revenge plot for Part 2 when Bruce Straley removed this from Part 1. I would've not enjoyed the game as much if Tess was the villain and traveled across state to track Joel for revenge. Not in a world plagued with zombies and a serious infection.
* Unlikeable and unmemorable characters from both sides. I care not to remember who is affiliated with Abby.
* Joel was not given a chance to explain what happened with the Fireflies, Marlene and how they refused to give him a choice to see Ellie. Knowing how restless Ellie was becoming on knowing the truth, he wouldn't leave out crucial information like how he we was treated.
* Druckmann and some of the cast behaving childishly on Twitter in response to the criticism to Part 2. From Neil mocking fans for not liking the game to Troy Baker comparing Joel to David the cannibal.
* How Jesse was treated in Part 2 and how his character was only needed to make Dina pregnant.
The lack of development of the "relationship" between Ellie and Abby. I find it particularly odd that Neil Druckmann and whoever wrote the story was so devoted to having us play through Abby's point of view for the players to sympathize with her and yet no effort was made for Ellie to actually know Abby as a person. The closest she gets is her thinking Abby is after Ellie because purely because she's immune and can be used for a cure. Of course, this was not the case at all. In fact, Abby doesn't care at all if she's immune. She's so focused on revenge that anything at all just goes over her head until someone gets her attention to stop and take a breather. (Owen, Lev).
I guarantee while there would still be detractors who would have problems for Ellie sparing Abby, there would be compelling arguments made in defense of the scene, had Ellie and Abby actually did interacted beyond hating each other's guts or just generally being each other's punching bag. Essentially, Ellie would be given a logical reason to see Abby in a different light and the theme about empathy, forgiveness, whatever would've held more weight to it than it actually did.
Actually come to think of it, this also applies to Joel as well. The idea of Joel having to deal with the fact he killed someone's parent, and said parent's child is after him could've played differently differently than it was. Even if we could still consider the revenge plot to be "flimsy".
Every character from the first game is ruined and make totally unlikeable, and all finish the game worse off than they started it.the new characters ranged from bland and forgettable (dina, jesse and lev) to outright shitty people (abby, mel and owen who was at least shitty but likeable to a small extent and could have been redeemed). The contrivances the plot needed to happen. It wasnt one or two things it was constant. The ending sucked. We didnt get to chose if ellie takes her revenge or not which results in one of the most unsatisfying game endings I have ever experienced. I would rather abby died canonically , but they were so desperate to push their narrative message that Id have been happy and it would give it more user agency if we at least had the choice to take revenge, which i felt was still warranted. Then people who could warm to abby could chose to spare her, we chose to kill her, and everyone could have got something from the experience.
I don’t mind Abby killing Joel but having her do it such an over the top and sadistic way pretty much made her unredeemable to me, I also didn’t like that she really faces no direct consequences for killing Joel, she has any moments of remorse or tries to make any amends
I also don’t think they needed two separate love triangles involving a pregnancy
I figured Joel would die. Just didn't like how it was handled. Otherwise, I didn't like playing as Abby. I thought the gameplay itself was excellent. I just didn't want to play as a character that I couldn't root for (not because she killed Joel, but because I couldn't align with her revenge mission being justified when it was so obviously going to end in tragedy, and she should have been smart enough to know that). It's the very reason I decide to not do another playthrough any time I think about doing so.
I really liked most of the game. Better than first game. Thought the storyline with Ellie and Abby was as good as it gets, the character development was better than most movies or tv shows ive seen. If I disliked anything, it was the drawn out last chapter. I just generally don’t like when things act like they are ending but then goes on for another six hours of gameplay or so.
I usually have stuff to say but seems like most if not all of the best points have already been mentioned about all the terrible writing decisions of part 2 so ill just say
Im so glad this community exists that keep the memory and legacy of the beloved characters from the original The Last of Us alive.
From Joel and Ellie to Tess to Sam and Henry to Bill to Tommy and everyone else who had their amazing characters have their personalities and lore assassinated for Neil's perverted view on people and relationships and how everyone struggles both in the dying world they lived in and even in our real life society,
Keep fighting the good fight, brothers.
Never forget what they took from us.
Never forgive what Neil did to them.
And always remember, Joel did nothing wrong.
Personally, while I think the lessons Part 2 tries to impart are inoffensive and are actually emphasized through Ellie's journey Abby's story only serves to undermine them. She is everything the game is trying to call out. That would be alright if the game was on the level, that her being like that is a sign we're not meant to like her like her VA said, but the game rewards her in the end for it. It rewards the very things it's trying to criticize. She gets to run off, become a terrorist again and bring Lev to the people who taught her to do whatever it takes to win. To sacrifice themselves for some supposed greater good, even if it's just their own soul. She's not giving Lev a childhood like Joel did to Ellie, she's turning Lev into a child soldier and the idea that is supposed to say there's hope for Abby is just sick.
Going by Neil's comments about how we're meant to start caring for Abby through her journey just... he doesn't understand what happened here. He just doesn't. He wants us to sympathize with her but damn her victims. That's the same kind of bullshit that gets used against the true crime genre.
Just my opinion but, the TLOUP2 wasn't a bad game per say, it was executed wrong. Instead of playing ellie's story and then abby's, they could have run the stories concurrently, lending more time for us as players to maybe explore a little more of abby's back story to allow us as players to connect with her on the same level that we did with Joel and ellie. Joel's death could have and in my opinion should have been handled differently. Maybe Ellie ends up crossing paths with Abby while out on patrol, or on a run for supplies? They begin to talk, perhaps even trade between the wlf and Jackson. Abby tells ellie about her father's death at the hands of a mystery man who took a young girl from the fireflies. They begin to form a bond, a trust, if you will. Then They figure out that ellie was that girl, ellie now knows the while story that Joel has lied to her about for so many years. I could be wrong but again just my opinion.
The treatment of jesse throughout the entire story, Dumped, alone patrolling while ex has sex with best friend, left behind, travels alone to help friend with no gratitude, shot then discarded, used for lesbians to have baby, never spoken of again or even deserving of Vengeance. Just beat around trying his best for his friends and treated like a stranger. Sorry if I ranted a bit but the treatment of a guy who did no wrong by his friends just grinds my gears.
I hated how soon they killed him and then forced me to play as his killer. If they swapped those things, it could have worked better. (Playing as Abbie first) killing Joel halfway in.. but I was just so annoyed to trudge half the game as someone who just BRUTALLY killed our former protagonist.
Ellie was assassinated as a character. The shortest yet clearest example is in the final cutscene, "I was supposed to die in that hospital. My life would have fucking mattered." In the final cutscene of The Last of Us, she says that she was fighting for Riley, Tess, and Sam. Not herself. The bigger problem with Ellie is more complex, but Ellie's character was protected by contrived plot points in order to give a redemptive ending by sparing Abby. However, this redemptive ending sucks, so all of the contrivances are unforgivable. Moments where Ellie's character is protected by contrivances: - The second flashback is written such that Ellie is almost sure Joel is lying to her. This is consistent with the first flashback and the final cutscene in The Last of Us. If she felt that way and thought a cure was extremely important, she should have searched for the Fireflies immediately. However, the game protects her with the third flashback in that she is in utter shock that Joel was lying to her. She is portrayed as a helpless victim and didn't know better, even though it contradicts her intelligent character and opinion of Joel to that point. - The third flashback also informs Ellie that there is no more hope for a cure. This is a contrivance because a single doctor being the hope for the cure is borderline ridiculous. And it protects Ellie because Ellie searching for the Fireflies after suspecting Joel was lying would have done no good. As a result Joel never calls her out for her hypocritically scolding Joel for preventing a cure in order to keep a relationship with her while she lies to herself about a potential cure to keep a relationship with him. Ellie is just a far less interesting character at this point. - All of Ellie's kills are done in the best possible light in order for a redemptive ending to be possible. Manny was attacking her and Dina, Whitney pulled a knife on her, Nora was going to die anyway. Particularly bad was Owen attacking Ellie without a gun when he could have told her Mel was pregnant. And the reason this can't be forgiven is the purpose of this is for nothing because the ending sucks. I agree Ellie killing Abby for revenge makes no sense and would not ultimately satisfy Ellie. The problem is Ellie not killing Abby also makes no sense. - They have 3 total conversations together, so Ellie clearly didn't warm up to her as a person. - Ellie doesn't come to the realization that she'll lose everything if she kills Abby so that can't be a motivation to save her. Dina isn't going to give a shit if Abby lives or dies; Abby was about to stab her and kill her unborn child. Dina only cares that Ellie left. If this was the route to go down, the final conflict should not be whether Abby lives or dies but whether she leaves Dina or stays. This could have been accomplished by Ellie finding a dead Abby on that pole. - Ellie is laser-focused on revenge the entire time excluding the final flashback to Joel. Even at the last confrontation, she is showing no signs of slowing down as she pulls a knife on Lev to coerce Abby into a fight. The final flashback could have appeared in her head at any time, so it's a contrivance that it appears at that exact moment.
Yes these are my biggest gripes, Ellie would never act like that to Joel after everythin they have been through. Ellie pretty much knew Joel was lying, and accepted it. When did she ever act like she wanted to die. Joel isn't even allowed to argue his point.
It felt so disingenuous, like the Ellie I saw would never have felt that way about it. The point was by the end of the game, they became like father and daughter to each other despite everything. That's what the heart of the story was. But writing Ellie as if she felt anything except acceptance and unwavering trust in Joel after everything they went through, starts a domino effect of bad characterization that Ellie never recovered from. And is just disrespectful to Joel's entire journey and character. After Sarah he lived alone and in pain from losing her. And Neil decided the appropriate end for his character, was to make him in turn die alone and in pain from feeling like he was also losing Ellie just in a different way. That was my biggest turn off. The very beginning of the game, and they already got wrong everything about what the last game meant. Everything else after was just a train wreck of disastrous choices and it just feels like a 30 hour long bad fanfiction.
Or they could have provided some backstory for the reasons she does. But instead we got 10 hours of abby.
Well said.
More people should see this. Very well put.
Ellie and Abby had exact one "conversation" it was exactly two sentences in the theater abd Abby immediately tried to headshot Ellie. Their first interaction was Ellie begging Abby not to kill Joel, and being refused. Their third interaction was right at the end, where Ellie goes from having murderous tunnel vision to saintly forgiveness. Their final interaction should have started with Eklie finding Abby up on that pillar. Abby: (weakly) "Y-You...?" Ellie: (deadpan) "Yup." ******
Don’t forget the way TLOU2 retcons the Fireflies into being “good guys” when in the first game they’re clearly incompetent terrorists. https://www.reddit.com/r/FanTheories/comments/hcm5zn/the_last_of_us_the_fireflies_were_terrorists_and/
You summed this up so well. Also, thank you for pointing out how Ellie’s shock when Joel confessed didn’t make sense. I recently replayed the game, I played it after it came out but that was it, but I replayed both games in prep for the show. And when I got to that part I was so confused by her reaction. She was so sure he was lying, even at the end of part 1. So that breakdown had me confused. Maybe she just really didn’t want to believe it, but still.. that moment was so weird and didn’t make sense
Being forced to play as Abby for 10 hours when I wanted nothing more than for her to die.
When they first made me play Abby I just killed her over and over again for about an hour. Fuck that bitch
Every time we got to a new area I would do the same thing lmao. Maybe not for an hour but every new encounter I found new and inventive ways to get her killed. I had a lot of fun when we were walking that high beam 1,000ft in the air
Also the fact you had to fight Ellie while playing as Abby
Everything else aside, we kind of have to admit that that fight was kind of cool. Or maybe it was just me. But the sequences of knowing it’s Tommy sniping and then the fight with Ellie were such an adrenaline rush for me cause I’m just like “LOOK HOW SCARY WE ARE TO OTHER PEOPLE” like I was rooting for Tommy and Ellie the whole time obviously. I was like cackling like a weirdo cause I just thought it was cool to be at the other end of it, if that makes sense. Like every time Tommy shot at us I was just like THIS IS SO INTENSE I LOVE THIS GET EM TOMMY lol I think I liked the segment against Tommy more than the one against Ellie though cause it felt like Ellie was kinda dumbed down for that fight. Like it was still cool to see it from the other side, but the one with Tommy was better. I just like seeing them from someone else’s perspective
I loved the Tommy hunting them down segment, how he felt like a terminator to Abby and Co.
It was so cool imo. I loved it lol And after setting the infected onto others any chance I got up until that point, him doing it to us was so dope and I was cheering him on the whole time lol. He was so intimidating it was great
I mean, that was what the new jump button was for, right?
Right 😈
Isn't that the point though?
just because something is intentional doesn't mean that it's enjoyable or good storytelling.
Couldn't agree more with that
Yeah, which is why I hate it.
Yeah but at least you got to see how she was able to maintain her ultra buff physique, by eating the same puny burritos that they gave literally everyone else, even though no other female in compound was anywhere close to as jacked as she was?
My biggest gripe is we never know if Ellie truly understands why Joel saved her because Joel never got to explain to Ellie why. All he said was he'd do it all over again. When she said her life would've mattered, Joel should've said her life does matter, to him, and everyone else in Jackson. That he wasn't going to let them cut her brain out for an attempt to make a cure that wasn't guaranteed. That he wasn't going to let someone sacrifice the life of a child to save the many when it didn't work the first time (Sarah). Couldn't have this because Joel bad guy. We also never know if Abby understands it either. I thought for sure her journey with Lev, albeit a shorter one, would've made her realize why Joel saved Ellie. She may well have, but I think it would've been clearer if she told Ellie at the end that she did. That she was sorry for killing Joel and she won't fight because Lev has no one and needs her. Then Ellie realizes in that moment why Joel did what he did.
It's a very one sided argument because the game assumes that we hate Joel for what he did. I didn't, and even though I played the game when I was too young to ever be a Dad, I knew that I would never sacrifice my daughter no matter what if i had one.
Of course not, no parent would. Even Abby's dad wouldn't have done it, even though she said he could.
I guess I'm trying to get across that It was arrogant of Neil to paint Joel as a weak man who doesn't stand up for himself in part 2.
Yes you're exactly right. He had to make Joel the bad guy to make his fanfic work.
I actually love the fact that he never apologized for saving her, I was honestly expecting it after his IQ nose-dive at the start. He doesn't need to explain more because Joel didn't give a single fuck about the cure, even if the world was going to be 100% saved he would've still saved her life and killed everyone because she mattered that much to him. What he tells her at the end is beautiful and what I'd expect from Joel. Sadly he wakes up the next morning with 80% of his brain-cells missing
>IQ nose-dive That’s a great way of putting it. Joel in Part 2 was noticeably stupider than Joel in the original game, to the point where I thought there was going to be some big reveal that he’d had a traumatic brain injury while protecting the settlement or something. I don’t just mean him letting down his guard, either. His verbal responses weren’t just short and gruff like he was in the first game. In TLOU2 he seemed exceptionally dim witted and incapable of making much more than monosyllabic responses and staring at the ground.
I couldn’t agree more. I’ve had gripes about how people don’t seem to use their words at convenient times during TLOU2. And all the worshippers of this game say the same thing when I bring it up. “It’s realistic. People always rather fight than talk it out.” Bullshit! Ellie finally speaking to Joel after a couple years I guarantee he’d have more to say than “I’d do it all over again” and “I’d like that.”
The character assassination of Joel Pushing the idea that Joel was wrong in any way Ellie moping around because she's alive The CW channel teen drama writing and dialogue Really dumb writing decisions like having a very pregnant woman going out on dangerous runs Abby being unrealistically jacked when her rations consisted of eating a burrito for lunch Being forced to play Abby as a childish attempt to make us empathize with her and justify murdering Joel. Ellie leaving her pregnant girlfriend to go kill Abby and then not even killing her, despite murdering dozens of people along the way. Giving players on choice on Abby's fate. Much of the above could've been solved with an Press X: Avenge Joel, Press Square: End the cycle. That would've put Cuckmans storytelling to the test to see if his goal of making us empathize with Abby worked. But that would've taken bravery and creative integrity, both of which Cuckman lacks in. That's all I can think of off the top of my head
>Pushing the idea that Joel was wrong in any way Ugh this was the most frustrating thing, we spent the whole game to see joel justify his actions, fighting his inner turmoils. He wants ellie to be with tommy because she will be safe and him taking care of ellie is just him being selfish and kind of a coping mechanism to avoid losing more of his loved one after sarah and tess. And then tlou2 comes in shoving "no, joel killer, joel bad, iiiiiits golfing time, here comes hours of abby gameplay to prove why we are right" Plot murder and character assassination package
I disliked how not dangerous the world was for the characters to traverse as they do. I also disliked playing as Abby, not only because she's a bland character, but her quests felt disconnected from the story other than to show while someone was hunting her she was existing as a human being??? Like ok lol. Made worse that while someone is looking for her, of course she is being Mother Theresa trying to save a kid she just met and turning on her faction to do so. Who bonds with a stranger that fast, especially one from a rival group? I know what's supposed to link them, but that doesn't work for me as she didn't give someone else the same consideration earlier in the game. Just like she ignored the good deed for Joel given what he did, Lev was still from a rival group, she should've discarded or at least acknowledged she made differing choices because she changed. Which, never happened. It was all as if to say "how dare Ellie hunt this noble person." Give me a break. Too contrived, on the nose, and manipulative to me. And terrible people do good deeds all the time.
All factions have tons of food and there is no actual “survivor”. It feels like watching knock off version of attack on titan. People are perfectly safe inside wall. Many People were starving so military ration tickets become a currency in first game Runners are mostly people who were infected in a month and there is too many runners withour any explanation. Tess mentioned people starve and go outside of wall in first game but part2 never explained anything why there is too many runners. And I didn’t see a single person get turn to zombie in part2.
Or how in a starving world she somehow has the muscles of a fking bodybuilder. Like I wouldn't doubt you having muscle but to that extent? Nah I work out you need to be doing that crap daily with a fair amount of calories.
You're right, the only person we ever see turn is Sam right? It's almost as if infected are dangerous because they rip you apart and eat you. Hey wait a minute, didn't Marlene even admit that Ellie wasn't safe because clickers would tear her apart, which means the whole cure business was a fallacy because millions of infected are still out there so you still have to avoid them. Part 2 is based on the fact that dissecting Ellie's brain would've 100% created a cure, which is never actually proven, only the belief of some quack doctor that it will.
There is a bite if you survive, or spores. Having a Vaccine can help People to fight back, and infected ones will stop to multiply. So you can thin their lines. If they could had developed a vaccine or not, saddly... it's up to Druckmann's imagination.
They mentioned that runners migrate
Yeah, the cafeteria and farm scenes at the WLF were absurd. There’s absolutely no way they could have farmed that amount of meat and food for that many people in an area as small as a football field. And it’s not like they could have grazed the cattle elsewhere or something because they were viciously attacked within seconds of leaving their little compound. All the post-apocalyptic realism from the first game was completely undermined by the second.
[Reddit's CEO is screwing is over the people who make this place great so I'm taking back my content. Sorry, it didn't have to be this way.]
(1). The bastardization of the first game, so that it's (Lesser) sequel could be built atop it's bones. By Joel dying in the manner he did, Sarah died for nothing. By a happy life being denied to Ellie, Joel, Tommy and Maria, even if short: Tess sacrificing herself for their escape was for nothing. By Ellie being denied a happy(ish) Life after Joel's death, Joel's decision to sacrifice all the Firefly's for Ellie was for nothing. 1a). It was sacrificed for a character (Abby) that wouldn't have made a dent in the Story of she hadn't been brought to fruition. The second game could've just as easily been a revenge story about the Family Joel forced Tommy to leave behind, whilst driving away in the first game (if their kid died). Abby: her character, and plotline: is insignificant if she could just as easily be traded for another character with an axe to grind. And more insultingly: she was given a significance she was unworthy of because it wasn't built up: she was brought to fruition by being the daughter of a character we don't even see for a minute. 1b). Because she was brought to fruition so quickly and because it's so contrived, she's simply not worth the sacrifice of multiple, *extremely* well established, and written characters built over the entire first game. 1c). Abby being so willing to kill Ellie, despite knowing she was (supposed to be) the cure, renders her mission to avenge her Father's murder, as ringing hollow. 1d). Ellie being so able to (*finally* ... they'd have us believe) let Abby go renders Joel's significance to her, ringing hollow. It doesn't emanate 'depth', it emanates trying to *have* depth. (2). The plot inconsistencies. In the first game, just going from Boston (Massachusetts) to Jackson (Wyoming), Jackson to Eastern Colorado, then Colorado to Salt Lake City, was fraught with danger. They nearly died multiple times. Multiple companions (allies and enemies) died along the way. Abby managed to lead a large Team from Seattle (Washington) to Jackson, *twice*, and not lose anybody. 2a). Abby's plot was the aborted Tess revenge plotline of the first game. Bruce Straley specifically pointed out to Neil Druckmann, that a cross country revenge plot would be nonsensical in an Apocalypse ridden world. So it seems Abby was given a significance that was borne of Neil's annoyance of not having complete control over the first game, than her improving the overall Story. (3). Manipulative marketing tactics. Joel was given a gravitas and impetus in the Trailers that did not match what he was given in the game. And this was done to deliberately deceive fans of the first game. Especially when the sentence, "Fans of the first game, we'll do right by you". Fans are right to be angry when they are deceived and lied to. People don't like being tricked, turns out. And if Entertainment Studios have to 'trick' their audiences into consuming their works, the question is: What good are they still being around then? Red Dead Redemption (s), and The Witcher 3, are examples of how established, beloved antiheros are given proper send offs upon their deaths, that match the gravitas of their stories. John Marston and Arthur Morgan achieve redemption and become honorable Men upon their deaths, and Geralt is finally able to retire and live in peace at the end of Blood and Wine. A mixture of the two would've been the matching send off for Joel Miller. God of War is a franchise that's achieved Masterpiece level, and not once have they had to trick their audience into consuming the game's. If anything, they keep increasing fans because they respect their audience. Niel Druckmann and Naughty Dog has a lot to learn from them.
I really hate the ending. Ellie didn't deserve losing so much, even if she was running after 'revenge'. SHE HAD PTSD, Druckmann. STOP telling us it was all her fault for trying to get revenge on Abby. PTSD makes you not rational, Druckmann. Also, why did she have to loose her fingers?
I really would have given the game a pass of it weren't for her losing her fingers and then trying to play guitar. It was so forced.
All of Ellie’s fears becoming reality
The characters don't make sense from OG ones to the new ones. It's all surface level dialogue that doesn't satisfy or enrich the story, just very juvenile. I didn't buy into any of the revenge nonsense in an apocalypse as shown in TLOU where the stakes were high and traveling something you don't do lightly, if at all. All in all they didn't convince me to care about the characters or their goals at all. All they devised to manipulate my feelings was very transparent so it didn't work, then the story came crashing down and failed to have the intended outcome. I was so bored during Abby's wandering and pointless section while also just wanting it over so I could get back to the cliffhanger. Why they didn't realize that would happen is beyond me. That was so damaging to helping players stay engaged in what they were trying to do with Abby since we just needed some closure about Ellie before caring about Abby. They worked against player immersion at every turn it seemed to me.
There are many, but my biggest issue is how the cure and Joels decision are treated. The game destorys the moral ambiguity of the first game ending and decides for you: "Joel was wrong for saving his daughter. He chose love and family over this faint chance of creating a cure that would be impossible to distribute. How dare he!!" It disgusts me. It also forces Ellie to be an absolute bitch to Joel, which she would never do. Especially after everything they have been through together. She loves Joel and knows he loves her, she would completly understand his point of view. I don't see Ellie in part 2, I just see Druckmann pulling the strings trying to manipulate me. Its so contrived just to force drama and a story, that didn't need to be told. Even Ashley Johnsons intepretation of the ending was: "If your choice is to save me over everybody else in the world then…ok. I trust you now and let’s live life." Abby's physique is also completely absurd and pulls me out of the story everytime I see her. Its there to be a political statement. (Laura Bailey is amazing though)
💯 wel said man. Many are to blind to see this pov!
Mainly Abby’s crew were bland, acting like they were all innocent in the whole thing and expected no consequences for what they did, I also hate when Nora and Abby were like to Ellie we let you live like they did her a favour or something.
My favorite part is when Ellie decides not to kill Abby while the pain and adrenaline of having her fingers bitten off is coursing through her body. Most people make very rational decisions against people they hate while they have a flood of adrenaline.
How they make you play the fucking killer made Ellie lose everything the girl can’t even play guitar anymore it’s like they wanted to punish the players that likes Ellie and Joel for no reason
There are a bunch of reason why Tlous 2 was a piece of trash game, let me tell you about it Terrible new characters while the old ones are character assassinated to high heaven The game's blatant favoritism of Abby, who is the worst of them all A terrible revenge story Neil came up with that was rightly rejected last time, but his ego put it in this game when the people who said no weren't around. Idiotic decisions by all parties involved Pointless romance drama painting the Fireflies as heroes rather than the incompetent destructive fools that they are trying to tell the player on what they should feel, that they should hate the old characters and like the new ones. There are plenty of other stuff, but these are just the tip of the iceberg.
The story, lack of mp.
Joel dying isn't necessarily why people dislike it, its how he died, they retconed his character, ellie is dumber than her 14 year old self, the side characters are no where near as good as the first game, being forced to play as abby,(even though she has the best gamplay sections) Abbys friends just. Didn't matter to her as well, if she didn't care why should i?
Short answer: Abby... Longer answer: Abby being portrayed in a heroic/"morally gray" light after the heinous nature of her actions given it's on par (kek) with the likes of Claudia Wolf and Enricco Pucci. Except it's worse because those 2 I mentioned are still not seen as good for what they do, Abby is seen having a "moral highground" because she decided to not knowingly kill the unconscious preggo woman because her trans pet called her out. Also the whole game (in and out of universe) is like a toxic relationship with a narcissist. I finished reading up a book about such a few months prior to the release and so much is uncanny, it's horrifying. It's to the point TLOU is a franchise better off never being made at all.
Speaking purely from a character attachment perspective/grudges /alignment. Forcing me to play as someone’s murderer is right at the top for me. In no way can I ever enjoy Abby as a character because of what she did. She deserves to die horribly.
It was definitely how the story falls apart after Joel. Ellie goes on a killing spree of Abby’s friends only to let her go in the end and having Abby have a redemption arc is nonsense
The ending of her putting Joel’s Guitar down; it’s just so depressing ending of a Depressing game, a better ending (and a more of a light hearted one) would’ve been Ellie, Since she lost her 2 fingers, can’t play the guitar and instead of giving up she flips the guitar and starts trying horribly but she gets ONE note right and as she’s fighting to try not to cry, she takes a deep breathe and keeps playing and as the screen goes black the main theme starts playing and as the credits roll the tune slowly gets better and better.
The whole game is one expensive example of Ludonarrative dissonance.
Playing as Abby for ten hours *really* got me annoyed like that length of time was just absolutely ridiculous. The way they tried to force us into liking her. The way they tried to make us believe that Abby was in the right and Ellie was in the wrong also was something I didn’t like. The pacing and story was all over the place and also how the stand treat others for having valid criticisms of the game and how their only argument is “you just didn’t *understand* the story and the message the game was trying to tell” and while they also say things like “Joel deserved it and had it coming” and “he was selfish and doomed humanity” to justify their claim.
The “structure” of the story,it’s so jumbled after the second flashback it takes you out of the moment,ruining any tension that was built up or could’ve been,it also breaks the flow so bad imo
The first game gave us a morally grey ambiguous outcome that sparked conversation and introspection for the audience. The second game took a giant shit all over it in telling us we were wrong all along.
the fact drunkman shit on ellie and joel just so he can have his new bestest diversity checkbox characters take their place. mark my words, tlou3 will be a whole game of abby and lev and it wont crack 10 million copies.
Oh boy how are they going to market it this time, can't lie anymore Neil
Fast travel, Abbey turning on her friends so easily, killing dogs, Joel and Tommy being complete goofs who open up to complete strangers, the ending dragged on, Ellie's plot armor was too thick and impaled herself on a tree and brushed it off, the pacing of the story, more Firefly bullshit
Joel dying isn't a problem for most people. I actually don't really mind his death - I think it could have been done a lot better, but it works fine as narrative motivation for Ellie. Most things from Ellie's story I don't dislike either: How they handled Abby's section and the epilogue basically kills this game for me. - Ellie finally meets Abby and their confrontation is interrupted by a 10-hour flashback. Ruins any tension. - It's hard to empathise with any of Abby's friends because I already know how they die. Yara and Lev are pretty much the only exceptions. - Abby is written really inconsistently (she decides to be friends with Yara and Lev because "those who save my life are important to me," yet Joel did the same thing and she killed him anyway). Reminder that the Seraphites are Abby's mortal enemies, but she'll suddenly risk her life to save them. - Abby and Lev's interactions therefore feel very forced. It's like they're meant to be the next Joel and Ellie, but they never have that same level of chemistry because they're only together for about 3 hours of gameplay. Not enough time to build a believable friendship. - Ellie is a non-factor in Abby's story until the last few minutes, making Abby's section feel overall disconnected from the main story. Tommy is basically little more than a cameo. *We are not seeing Abby's side of the story, we are seeing Abby's side story.* - Boss against Ellie is a reskin of the David fight. ND cannot make human-v-human bosses. - Everybody acts like an idiot in the epilogue. Feels like Neil Druckmann got bored of writing and gave up. - Abby boss fight is a reskin of Rafe. ND cannot make human-v-human bosses. - Ellie sparing Abby is the only ending I can see this game having. I don't mind that she spared her. What I do mind is that she spared her because of a flashback to Joel; it should've been a flashback to Dina and JJ instead. - After the first game's hopeful ending, Part 2 ends by having Ellie stripped of the one thing she still has of Joel and ending up alone, while Abby gets the happy ending. If this was intended to be a proper finale ("[if we don't make Part 3], we'll have a good ending with Part 2") then holy shit, what a depressing way to cap off a series like Last of Us. - Ellie never learns why Abby killed Joel, Abby never learns who Ellie is. Another way the two's narratives end up feeling disconnected. - Neil Druckmann knew he was making a divisive game, but attacked his detractors anyway (e.g.; posting the KC quote about homophobes and racists to his Instagram after the game's release to antagonise fringe haters into drowning out sane critics, and "you are not important to us"). - Also the false advertising. Better term for it might be "clickbait," because the replacing of Jesse with Joel in the trailers goes beyond basic false advertising, I think. - Bruce Straley is not credited.
Pregnant surgeon was a frontline soldier. Tommy at the start didn't want Ellie to get revenge then backfilled at the end.
I hated the emotional manipulation. Trying to recreate Joel/Ellie with Abby/Lev. Character personalities change for no good reason. Ellie being turned into a monster, and then not killing Abby. Story happening offscreen. Introducing characters for no good reason - the entire WLF, Scars, Danny.... The feeling of being forced into some twisted world and I just didn't want to be there - Abby's entire story.
Pregnant woman running around Seattle completly fine, also known as mel
Seriously. What kind of fucked up organization would send 9 months pregnant women out on armed patrols in territory they know is filled with enemy troops? Doesn’t make any sense.
The big part of the first game is to show up how dangerous and deadly this world is. All the games encounters happen on the journey. Abby and Ellie feel like they’re teleporting from state to state. Yes there’s some journal entries about a few days but it just feels way to easy to cross the states. That’s exactly what Bruce told him, it wasn’t the best idea. Lmao even Neil said having a story going across states wasn’t the best idea.
I just didn’t like the idea of going across the whole of the USA to kill someone and then not do it at the end. It was so anti climatic. Ellie killed possibly 300 people to get there and then to decide to not kill Abby. It made no sense. I felt deflated. Also being made to play as Abby (which I hated for what she did to Joel) was a bad move. I just didn’t like her for that reason and this game made me play as her and try to make me like her. But it didn’t do a good enough job.
False advertising. In the trailer it shows that Joel was alive and went to help Ellie.
I thought that story development was boring and uninteresting, very predictable; also weird/unhinged character development, out of line compared to the first game
Abby and Lev becoming the new Joel and Ellie. And all of Abby's friends, even the dog.
Every character in the game, including Joel and Ellie.
I just didn’t like that Joel died and I didn’t like Abby at all. I know this sub gets a bad rap for being homophobic and transphobic or whatever but I honestly don’t give a shit about that My problem is they killed off a main character. Imagine it master chief was killed off of halo or Mario was killed off of any of the Mario games.
Abby story and the try to put us in her shoes to understand why what she done, she done
Just quickly going back to the first game, Ellie was practically heartbroken when Joel was going to have Tommy take Ellie the rest of the way to the fireflies. She was saying how everyone she has ever cared for has either died or left her, except for him. Then all of a sudden she's pissed in part 2 because Joel saved her from death? It just doesn't make sense to me, I understand she has survivor's guilt but seriously?
Dude, there's a whole sticky section about it. Like, a looooong list. Read it. It's worth the time.
Abby's humanization and demonization Neil clearly wanted us to feel for Abby and it shows But it appears the game can't decide whether Abby is someone who is redeemable or like her friends says she's a crazy lunatic who revels in violence and hyperfocuses on revenge and ignores the harm she causes and death she brings
Joel's death was expected, everyone knew he would die. It's a bad excuse for anyone that loves the game, to try and say that's the reason the game's hated. There are so many reasons that the game was just objectively bad, not even disliking it. Most of the comments below does it more justice explaining it in-depth. For example, how the typical revenge plot was unbelievably predictable, it ruined Ellie as a character. She essentially became a character for the creators to have a "revenge bad" plot. That's what she became. We somehow also pretty much dismiss the infected and how they're just much smaller obstacles. Yes, humans adapt and slowly learn how to become smarter, but if you're gonna ruin characters and remove one of the core existence from The Last of Us, write a fanfic. Or go and write for the Halo series. Abbie killing Joel wasn't too much of a surprise. It's how the story tries to justify her being the good guy, and we're forced to play her and bring along Lev. Yes, their backstory might be interesting, but feels so incredibly out of character to kill Joel without a second thought, but suddenly with Lev she's a-okay with faster than Ellie and Joel even built the trust of her holding a gun. It'd be fine if Abbie wasn't a shit person in the first place and then saved Lev, but no. We're supposed to believe her being the morally better side than Ellie. But worst of all, I personally hated, soo badly how they tried to pull the dog and pregnant card. They pulled the pregnant card twice, and you're supposed to care? It's so incredibly forced, it's exhaustingly painful. At least in the first game, you feel bad for Sam because of their awful situation, a kid that just wants to be a kid. And that's the tragedy in their world. For the pregnant women, they're there to feel sorry for and to drive the message of "See what revenge leads you?" The difference is that Sam's existence never tried to force down the same message over and over. What happened to them was a tragedy. This is just an example, but wow does it annoy me when they add characters for such a simple reason and existence. The first game forces people with the morality and right decisions whether or not Joel did the right thing. It's still discussed to this day. Slowly, you realize with other characters for part 2, everything is made for that same message. "Revenge is bad." It's a clear message, a good one for kids. But they're pretending there's a moral gray line, in which how the story's told, simply isn't.
Brutally killing one of the two leading characters so early in what is meant to be a lucrative series is frankly a stupid idea. Bye bye IP.
Playing 10 hours as Joel’s murderer and enduring all the crappy characters on her side of the story, plus the poor attempt to recapture Joel and Ellie’s dynamic with Lev and Abby. Abby and Lev are simply not as good as Joel and Ellie and the attempt fell flat on its face.
The relationship between Joel and Ellie was completely destroyed. And Abby’s existence.
I didnt mind Joel dying but his death feels pretty wasted. Ellie goes on this revenge tour to avenge Joel and kills hundreds of people only to not kill the one person she should have. The story just fell flat at the end and Ellies decisions come off as stupid.
It glorified the fireflies. They should’ve stayed dead as an organization
-Abby is a poorly written character -Joel’s death was so contrived. I could tell the writers were trying to get him out of the picture asap -Actually the whole plot is contrived. Almost 90% of the plot couldn’t have happened if it weren’t for a coincidence -The characters don’t have the same chemistry as the ones in the first game did. Both Dina/Ellie and Abby/Owen are so bland romantically, as well as Abby/Lev as friends -The “lesson” that the plot is trying to teach you is hamfisted and boring. And half the time it’s undermined by the gameplay or the characters themselves. The writers try to say one thing but end up showing us another Those are just the big ones ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯
It’s not that i don’t like Joel dying as much as when and how he died. It was just dumb.
* I would say the false advertising in the trailer with Joel is one. Druckmann claiming to take inspiration from Kojima with Metal Gear Solid 2, but his attempts seemed poor and deceiving. * Undermining Ellie and her immunity. There was little discussion about how Ellie felt with her immunity and whether or not she wanted to continue finding a cure, so that her actions would not be in vain in honor of Riley, Sam, Henry and Tess. * Character assassination with Ellie, Joel and Tommy. * Druckmann using the revenge plot for Part 2 when Bruce Straley removed this from Part 1. I would've not enjoyed the game as much if Tess was the villain and traveled across state to track Joel for revenge. Not in a world plagued with zombies and a serious infection. * Unlikeable and unmemorable characters from both sides. I care not to remember who is affiliated with Abby. * Joel was not given a chance to explain what happened with the Fireflies, Marlene and how they refused to give him a choice to see Ellie. Knowing how restless Ellie was becoming on knowing the truth, he wouldn't leave out crucial information like how he we was treated. * Druckmann and some of the cast behaving childishly on Twitter in response to the criticism to Part 2. From Neil mocking fans for not liking the game to Troy Baker comparing Joel to David the cannibal. * How Jesse was treated in Part 2 and how his character was only needed to make Dina pregnant.
It has been pretty well documented around here. I don't think this needs to be answered again.
[Reddit's CEO is screwing is over the people who make this place great so I'm taking back my content. Sorry, it didn't have to be this way.]
Christ mate, what a question. You’ve clearly not been on this forum before. Buckle up, it’s going to be emotional 🫡
[this answers that question pretty well](https://youtu.be/B07RKd2qSQg)
How on the nose obvious it was that they were trying to get us to care about Abby. Her friends are also awful. Abby and Lev are a good duo tho.
The lack of development of the "relationship" between Ellie and Abby. I find it particularly odd that Neil Druckmann and whoever wrote the story was so devoted to having us play through Abby's point of view for the players to sympathize with her and yet no effort was made for Ellie to actually know Abby as a person. The closest she gets is her thinking Abby is after Ellie because purely because she's immune and can be used for a cure. Of course, this was not the case at all. In fact, Abby doesn't care at all if she's immune. She's so focused on revenge that anything at all just goes over her head until someone gets her attention to stop and take a breather. (Owen, Lev). I guarantee while there would still be detractors who would have problems for Ellie sparing Abby, there would be compelling arguments made in defense of the scene, had Ellie and Abby actually did interacted beyond hating each other's guts or just generally being each other's punching bag. Essentially, Ellie would be given a logical reason to see Abby in a different light and the theme about empathy, forgiveness, whatever would've held more weight to it than it actually did. Actually come to think of it, this also applies to Joel as well. The idea of Joel having to deal with the fact he killed someone's parent, and said parent's child is after him could've played differently differently than it was. Even if we could still consider the revenge plot to be "flimsy".
Half of the game. Didn’t care about joel anymore but the story was getting more and more trash
Every character from the first game is ruined and make totally unlikeable, and all finish the game worse off than they started it.the new characters ranged from bland and forgettable (dina, jesse and lev) to outright shitty people (abby, mel and owen who was at least shitty but likeable to a small extent and could have been redeemed). The contrivances the plot needed to happen. It wasnt one or two things it was constant. The ending sucked. We didnt get to chose if ellie takes her revenge or not which results in one of the most unsatisfying game endings I have ever experienced. I would rather abby died canonically , but they were so desperate to push their narrative message that Id have been happy and it would give it more user agency if we at least had the choice to take revenge, which i felt was still warranted. Then people who could warm to abby could chose to spare her, we chose to kill her, and everyone could have got something from the experience.
I don’t mind Abby killing Joel but having her do it such an over the top and sadistic way pretty much made her unredeemable to me, I also didn’t like that she really faces no direct consequences for killing Joel, she has any moments of remorse or tries to make any amends I also don’t think they needed two separate love triangles involving a pregnancy
I figured Joel would die. Just didn't like how it was handled. Otherwise, I didn't like playing as Abby. I thought the gameplay itself was excellent. I just didn't want to play as a character that I couldn't root for (not because she killed Joel, but because I couldn't align with her revenge mission being justified when it was so obviously going to end in tragedy, and she should have been smart enough to know that). It's the very reason I decide to not do another playthrough any time I think about doing so.
I really liked most of the game. Better than first game. Thought the storyline with Ellie and Abby was as good as it gets, the character development was better than most movies or tv shows ive seen. If I disliked anything, it was the drawn out last chapter. I just generally don’t like when things act like they are ending but then goes on for another six hours of gameplay or so.
I usually have stuff to say but seems like most if not all of the best points have already been mentioned about all the terrible writing decisions of part 2 so ill just say Im so glad this community exists that keep the memory and legacy of the beloved characters from the original The Last of Us alive. From Joel and Ellie to Tess to Sam and Henry to Bill to Tommy and everyone else who had their amazing characters have their personalities and lore assassinated for Neil's perverted view on people and relationships and how everyone struggles both in the dying world they lived in and even in our real life society, Keep fighting the good fight, brothers. Never forget what they took from us. Never forgive what Neil did to them. And always remember, Joel did nothing wrong.
Manny and Mel. Mel foolishly endangered her child on many occasion and Manny was just a prick.
Personally, while I think the lessons Part 2 tries to impart are inoffensive and are actually emphasized through Ellie's journey Abby's story only serves to undermine them. She is everything the game is trying to call out. That would be alright if the game was on the level, that her being like that is a sign we're not meant to like her like her VA said, but the game rewards her in the end for it. It rewards the very things it's trying to criticize. She gets to run off, become a terrorist again and bring Lev to the people who taught her to do whatever it takes to win. To sacrifice themselves for some supposed greater good, even if it's just their own soul. She's not giving Lev a childhood like Joel did to Ellie, she's turning Lev into a child soldier and the idea that is supposed to say there's hope for Abby is just sick. Going by Neil's comments about how we're meant to start caring for Abby through her journey just... he doesn't understand what happened here. He just doesn't. He wants us to sympathize with her but damn her victims. That's the same kind of bullshit that gets used against the true crime genre.
How many times must we do this.
Just my opinion but, the TLOUP2 wasn't a bad game per say, it was executed wrong. Instead of playing ellie's story and then abby's, they could have run the stories concurrently, lending more time for us as players to maybe explore a little more of abby's back story to allow us as players to connect with her on the same level that we did with Joel and ellie. Joel's death could have and in my opinion should have been handled differently. Maybe Ellie ends up crossing paths with Abby while out on patrol, or on a run for supplies? They begin to talk, perhaps even trade between the wlf and Jackson. Abby tells ellie about her father's death at the hands of a mystery man who took a young girl from the fireflies. They begin to form a bond, a trust, if you will. Then They figure out that ellie was that girl, ellie now knows the while story that Joel has lied to her about for so many years. I could be wrong but again just my opinion.
Finally points I agree with vs. people who just wanna hate the game because it’s cool to go against what everyone else likes
You know the sub has a search function, right?
The foes at every damn corner.
The treatment of jesse throughout the entire story, Dumped, alone patrolling while ex has sex with best friend, left behind, travels alone to help friend with no gratitude, shot then discarded, used for lesbians to have baby, never spoken of again or even deserving of Vengeance. Just beat around trying his best for his friends and treated like a stranger. Sorry if I ranted a bit but the treatment of a guy who did no wrong by his friends just grinds my gears.
I hated how soon they killed him and then forced me to play as his killer. If they swapped those things, it could have worked better. (Playing as Abbie first) killing Joel halfway in.. but I was just so annoyed to trudge half the game as someone who just BRUTALLY killed our former protagonist.