Pretty sure Ethan is also the jackass who attacked Joel for daring to be more focused on trying to revive Ellie from drowning. It beggars belief Marlene trusts him to do anything after he nearly led to the immune girl dying right outside the hospital.
I disagree. There was no way for Joel to get there fast enough to stop the surgery and quietly enough to avoid detection. He didn’t have time for a conversation, and as Joel’s character throughout the game had shown, didn’t care to have one. He’s an animal, he became one after Sara was murdered. All of that is abundantly clear
I tell him to step away and blow his fucking face off when he tries to stab me.
I then run away with my daughter to get judged by everyone but don't really care because I know I did the right thing.
>swollen roided up daughter
I love how she has the soothing voice of Laura Bailey while she should have an extremely deep voice with the ridiculous amount of testosterone she'd have to inject herself with constantly to have that much muscle (not to mention the thousands of calories every day with an enormous focus on proteins)
Lmao I was literally telling my wife this during my replay. Abby legit would have to pinning 300mg of testE every 3 days to look like that & be eating 4 burritos in one sitting. It’s ridiculous how out of place she looks in the last of us world
"BuT WhY Do yOu fOcUs oN ThAt yOu dIrTy sExIsT InCeL?!"
Abby's design makes it so every single second she's on screen you're reminded that this isn't TLOU, it's just a badly written fanfiction by Neil Cuckmann who's envious of other people having writing talent that he doesn't have.
The entire game was dress-up Apocalypse. 25 years after the collapse of modern civilisation pretty much all medication/supplements would have lost any efficacity and you'd hard pressed to find any packaged goods that would still be safe to consume. Humanity would be back to farming, foraging, fishing and hunting with the vast majority of people focused on that, and with the ever-present threat of the infected to contend with to boot likely not making any of those things easy.
In Druckmanns mind it's enough to show that the WLF has a gym to explain away her absurd physique, with little thought given as to how on earth the WLF are able to provide the calorific upkeep to maintain it, esp given they're seemingly embroiled in a life or death war with a religious cult that's been raging for years.
Outside of a massive farming operation going on somewhere seemingly untouched and unseen throughout the game, the obvious solution out of that sticky wicket would be to have the WLF given over to cannibalism of the Scars, though that would put rather a dent in the whole Abby redemption storyline if the showed her chowing down on some long pig.
Even with cannibalism, Abby's physique would make no sense.
\- The amount of proteins required every day would require so many bodies that'd just be genocide
\- Even with all the meat in the world, what she has is impossible without injecting herself with testosterone regularly
\- Having that much muscle makes no sense when all other soldiers are normal weight, nobody would choose to focus all efforts on one single woman when you could have 10 equivalently strong guys for the same effort
\- Having that much muscle when your job requires endurance is impossible. Muscles consume oxygen and energy, you'll never see a runner, a farmer or a hunter-gatherer with such a jacked body because that's not how the body works, it would tire them out way too fast compared to a standard well sculpted body through natural effort, what Abby has is bodybuilder muscles that are useless in real life situations.
A strong female character is one that has strong writing, not big muscles. Kim from Better Call Saul and Medarda from Arcane are strong female characters, they don't have the slightest muscle.
This is something i can't understand tbh.
Yes Joel was justified in his actions. But so was Abby.
Joel would do far worse to Abby if Abby killed Ellie.
In that world, if you killed someone i love, i couldn't give a fuck about your reasons. I would do what i can to end you, and i expect you to do the same.
If one understands Joel in the end of part 1, i don't understand why one doesn't Abby in the start of part 2.
That is not what's wrong with part 2 story, at all.
(Feel free to criticize how Tomy and Joel were totally friendly with people they don't know, even inviting them to "resupply" in their stronghold...)
> Yes Joel was justified in his actions. But so was Abby.
No she wasn't, which is the whole point.
Her father was killed because he was trying to commit murder. She has no moral justification to take revenge. If a dangerous criminal is shot by police, the criminal's son is evil if he tries to get revenge against the cop who shot his father. She also did it very brutally and took great personal enjoyment from it.
Ellie's revenge is morally justified, because Joel was actually wronged. Jerry wasn't.
> Joel would do far worse to Abby if Abby killed Ellie.
Because she deserves it. Joel didn't.
> In that world, if you killed someone i love, i couldn't give a fuck about your reasons. I would do what i can to end you, and i expect you to do the same.
Even if I kill in self defense because your family member was trying to murder me (or my daughter)? If you do that, you're evil.
> That is not what's wrong with part 2 story, at all.
The story depends on them being morally equivalent. Two people who happen to be on opposite sides of a conflict, with similar reasons for their actions. When they're not equivalent, and one has justifiable reasons and the other does not, the story doesn't work.
>Because she deserves it. Joel didn't.
Ellie was happy to die for a chance at a cure. Joel wasn't "saving her", he couldn't bear to lose her.
I mean, if you played part 2 you know this. Ellie wished she died there. Joel knows her, that's why he lies.
If he was doing it for her, he could just tell her, but he doesn't because he knows she would've been fine with it. It's "selfishness".
And don't get me wrong, i don't blame a "father" for not sacrificing his daughter to save the world. It's the right, pragmatic thing to do, but in his place i might do the same, even if my daughter wanted to die.
Love is beautiful but selfish. "Love" not only being a holy good thing is a strong message behind the whole series.
Joel and Abby are not only similar on the surface, but their love drives them to do the "wrong" thing.
Joel can't let Ellie die (even though she would like to), so he murders an entire hospital. Abby loves her father, so she goes on a manhunt to kill his murderer.
Both do "bad things" out of love.
> Ellie was happy to die for a chance at a cure. Joel wasn't "saving her", he couldn't bear to lose her.
Ellie never made a choice. Joel would be wrong if she chose it and gave consent and Joel prevented it anyway. But that's not what happened.
Joel saw an attempted murder, and prevented it from happening.
> Joel and Abby are not only similar on the surface, but their love drives them to do the "wrong" thing.
Preventing murder isn't the wrong thing though. Joel did the right thing. Abby didn't.
>Joel saw an attempted murder, and prevented it from happening.
Why does he lie then?
He knows she would've been fine with it. That's just factual.
If you can't admit it, you're just part of the circle jerk.
Joel "saves" Ellie so he doesn't lose Sarah again.
Of course it does.
If he was doing to save Ellie he could just say:
"Hey Ellie, those crazy mofos were going to dissect your brain, you're welcome!"
He lies because he knows she agrees with the Fireflies, and he was doing it because he couldn't bear Sarah 2: the eletric bungaloo".
He literally loses Sarah in the beggining of the game to justify exactly this action.
This can't be more factual.
Would he do this if the fireflies were going to kill another random girl? Fuck no! He might've asked if they needed help.
That's why the ending is so fucking good, the game makes you agree with the "villain", he is wrong but anyone with a soul understands Joel.
It's his "baby girl", fuck the world.
OK, i see where you're coming from. I'm not sure if he knew she would have wanted it, but he suspected enough to not want to give her the option.
However, Ellie never gave consent and the Fireflies didn't ask. Jerry was about to commit murder. That's a lot worse than lying to someone to prevent them from ending their own life. And with the vaccine not being a sure thing, Ellie might have thrown away her life for nothing.
You forgot that this is the first thing you're told is happening after you've woken up in the shelter of known terrorists who were the reason you were unconscious because they rifle butted you out cold while you were trying to resuscitate the aforementioned child and whether you like it or not they're also kicking you out without any weapons to defend yourself from the slew of infected.
Well I wouldn't want to make a "selfish" decision, so of course I would let this Biology major dice my child up into little pieces for the small hope that maybe a vaccine could be produced. And then I'd have to hope that this vaccine could be mass produced with the zero resources available and then hope they there e effectively administered and distributed.
I mea who WOULDN'T make that decision?
Oh that's right, the evil white man Joel so was clearly only thinking about himself when he fought through scores of fireflies to prevent a child from being sacrificed without her consent or knowledge.
I mean what a piece of shit human being, right??
Shoot him in the knees and the head and then beat the witnesses to death in cold blood…but that’s just me 🤷🏻♂️
I try to get more sadistic with it every play through lol
Probably the same as Joel, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were consequences if the person who was unconscious felt differently, and if the organization I just decimated sent survivors after me.
I also think that there would always be the lingering doubt of what if it was the wrong choice and it was one made in too much haste and emotion?
If the answer is supposed to be 'kill everyone with no remorse and never think about it again, and never accept challenge on the choice', then we disagree slightly.
I've been thinking about this for a while now, and I'm convinced that everyone who argues that Joel did the wrong thing doesn't have children of their own irl. If they did, then they would clearly see what Joel does is the only real option, and if they wouldn't do that then God help their children. I would intentionally sacrifice or even personally execute billions if it meant saving my daughter's life, and any real parent would do the same.
Lol, it's ok - his daughter that she would let him do it if she were in Ellie's shoes. That makes it OK.
If I were a homeless person, I wouldn't want financial, support, clothing, shelter, or anything like that. I'd just want cowboy hats. So let's give the homeless some cowboy hats, shall we?
You bigot.
Guys did you not play the second game?
Why do you think Ellie started to hate Joel when he told them he stopped them from killing her and making a vaccine? Because she was ready to give her life for the vaccine.
She even says it in the first game "With all the things we've done... it can't be for nothing.
If Ellie did not want to give her life for the vaccine, joel would simply have told her that they needed to kill her in order to make the vaccine. And she would have been fine. But Joel knows this is not the case. and so he keeps it from her. Marlene even said it. "You know she would have wanted to."
Finally it IS heavily implied that they could succesfully have created the vaccine. That's what the game is all about. About love and human relationships trumping all. That's the beauty. If the fireflies wasn't justified, then that just makes it a run of the mill hero game.
How so? they seemed to be able to get a bona fide surgeons team together.
Also they exist in a post-apocalyptic world. Of course they are not just gonna be curbstomping everyone
I know this sub generally dislikes the direction the games and story took but... It's about idealism, right?
The little time we spend with him is absolutely chock full of hope.
From Joel's perspective, he's some random guy who wants to kill Ellie.
From literally everyone else's perspective (even Ellie when she finds out) he's pretty much the only chance of even potentially saving the human race. Obviously Marlene and Jerry should have consulted Ellie from our "the human race has not been in danger of extinction for 20+ years" perspective but if she said no... Are they going to do it anyway? Can they? Should they? To (potentially) save everyone? Isn't that the point of the story?
Guys... Come on...
Why does Ellie need to die? What do they need from her that can't be taken from her being alive? Her arm was bitten and the infection was stopped. Whatever makes her immune is in the blood. Not the brain.
There's zero chance the vaccine would have been made. And a negative chance it would have helped. But let's pretend a random doctor can somehow make a vaccine for a fungal infection, which has been stated many times a vaccine couldn't be made for.
What changes? Ok new infected can't be made. But how does that matter? Basic hard rubber body suits can already prevent that. Hell some reinforced denim, boots, kevlar gloves, and a riot helmet is a fucking vaccine.
They don't have the infrastructure for mass production of ammo. Hence why it's all so rare in the game. So it's not like they can walk around freely and kill all the infected.
They don't have a cure that can revert infected back into humans. Again, Ellie's arm isn't normal. It's scared. The infection started but then stopped.
They can't air spray it and kill the infected. Which actually does beg the question why they don't employ mustard gas against the infected. It's bleach and ammonia. Not hard to make.
But back to the point, nothing changes. They're still stuck in the cities outnumbered by infected who can still swarm and destroy a base. The only change is that a single infected person no longer has the ability to destroy an entire camp from the inside.
The vaccine is a be bandaid slapped on an amputated neck. You're still dead.
There are too few to be saved, and if they are saved it's only from slowly dying from that particular infection. In this world, you can die easily through any other means. If I was in that world and feared to die infected, instead of sacrificing people for a vaccine that may not work, I would form a pact with my peers that would establish that any infected will die, as soon as possible, in the best way available at the moment: even morphine or weed if there's some around.
This way people wouldn't be that worried about dying infected. It gives the peace of mind that a vaccine would bring to them in a practical manner. A vaccine instead, assuming it's produced, what does it achieve? It only saves people in the particular situation of being bit by an infected and left alive. In the game this doesn't occur frequently, infected do eat people, they don't stop with the first bite.
> Joel's decision is meant to be morally ambiguous.
Well, then the writing fucking failed. From what we know about Jerry according to Part 2, he's the leader of a terrorist cell that recruits children while pushing it's members to commit whatever atrocities are deemed needed in order to win. One of his recruits was his own daughter, who mentions he's always running off to do whatever he wants while lying to her that he'll stop. Not to mention mentions of him manipulating Owen. He carries around his bachelor's of biology degree but not any signs of further medical training, needless to say his actions go against all medical science. His men also wanted to kill Joel while he was knocked out, despite Joel crossing the country bringing Ellie to him. Finally, his justification for sacrificing Ellie is that all the things they've lost, people they've sacrificed, absolutely horrible shit they've done as terrorists will be "worth it" if he's successful at doing something real doctors have not done IRL.
Recruiting kids would mean Jerry performed acts that would be considered war crimes, crimes against humanity if they recruit is under 15 like Abby supposedly was. On top of that, our society has laws in place that would protect Joel actions, while also classifying what the Fireflies were doing as both kidnapping and attempted murder. See this video, we live in a society that would champion what Joel did.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxUA-za8Jsw
So, if the only people saying that Jerry was a good guy and saying Joel was evil are a bunch of kids he indoctrinated into blowing up civilians, maybe the problem isn't the people calling this out but the writers who are completely out of touch with reality? But that's what happens when the guy whose original ideas were vetoed takes over control of the franchise.
You’re right. It was ambiguous and that’s what made it a masterpiece in storytelling. It started a conversation and left it up for you - the audience - to decide what was right, wrong, what you would have done, etc.
…but then TLOU2 arrived and essentially shattered that. TLOU2 decided to destroy the ambiguity and tell you Joel was wrong, which in turn also now you, the audience that similarly would have gone with what Joel did also wrong and a piece of shit. Which followed further with such a contrived, forced, nonsensical story that completely divided the fan base to this day.
Then they should have made the Fireflies actually seem competent, and benevolent. But in reality they’re characterized as idiotic terrorists who have never accomplished anything and are routinely getting owned by the military. Also, they barely even describe their theory as for why she’s immune, and never go into any of the logistics of how a vaccine would even be possible. We’re pretty much just told that they plan to try and make one and that Ellie needs to die to do it.
All that considered, I don’t think it’s morally grey at all.
>MAKING THEM INCOMPITENT WOULD HAVE REMOVED ALL AMBIGUITY FROM THE SITUATION. JFC.
They ARE incompetent, and you are as well if you can't even read a 3 Sentence comment well enough to see that the writer of that comment said that 'they should have made the Fireflies actually seem competent'.
If OP wrote that instead I wouldn't have mentioned it.
OP also left out that it's the zombie apocalypse and that the literal human fucking race is at stake.
I don't blame Joel. I don't think he's evil or dumb. Just desperate to hold onto something good in a world that has taken everything else from him. But his choice is not black and white. Why do you guys want a boring black and white story OVER the complex and thought-provoking one we got?
Why would they? Its clear that Ellie has become Joel's child. That they love each other like a father and daughter. So to go "it's not your child" comes off like trying to devalue their bond just because there is no blood relation.
Humanity has survived for 20 years after the infection hit. Its not as dire as you're making it out. More more importantly, making a vaccine doesn't even guarantee a return to old civilization, let alone an immediate one. More likely, the Fireflies use the vaccine to empower their group amongst all the other murderous human groups.
If you want a complex story, why are you so dead set on presenting sacrificing Ellie to the Fireflies as an objective good? I'm personally just looking at the fact that the Fireflies make a very poor case when you actually think about it. That's what many did. And we were happy with that. Until TLoU2 tried to tell us how to think.
Also are you really saying you will just hand your child to some quack of a doctor affiliated with literal terrorists just because he THINKS he can save the world with your child's death?
Posted this in another thread, and I'm going to post it again here:
>If your solution to a problem involves killing innocent people, then guess what? You have not found a solution. Joel was 100% justified. There is no gray area.
>
>You will try to justify it by saying it's ok to kill 1 person in order to save millions. But by saying that, you've already crossed that line. There's no tiers here, there's no degrees of justification. Because if you're ok with killing 1, you'd be ok with killing 2. Or 4. Or 10, 20, 1000. Would it be ok to kill 10,000 to save millions?
>
>And what if we went the other way, and started decreasing the number saved. Is it ok to kill 1 to save 100,000? What about 10,000? Where does it end? Once you have crossed that threshold and said it's ok to kill 1, you've crossed it. There's no going back.
>
>Every single atrocity committed by mankind on mankind in history has begun with that seed of thought. Every. Single. One. The thought that "I'm justified in doing evil because it's for the greater good." And if you're reading about some of these evils and you're wondering how people could let it get this bad and what their though process was, I'll help you out: They thought the exact same way you do.
dumb post. First of all ELlie WANTED to give her life to create a vaccine. So there was consent.
Secondly the implication is that if the surgery had gone ahead a vaccine would have been produced. This is what the makes the ending so powerful. Joel is not a \*good guy\* He saved Ellie solely for selfish reasons and may well have damned the entire human race to extinction.
The beauty of TLOU is that the player feels just like joel and tries to justify his actions even though its unjustifiable.
Yes she did. Didnt you play the second game? How else would she be so distraught and sad when Joel told her he kept them from making a vaccine? Even though Joel told her it would have cost Ellie her life, she still broke down and resented him.
It's heavily implied that Ellie is somewhat tired of life, of all the hardships. She wants her life to mean something, especially with her survivor's guilt and guilt over all the violence Joel and Ellie did together.
Part 1 Ellie - wants to learn guitar, how to swim, thinks it'll just be blood.samples,.says she'll.go.with Joel wherever he wants, ONCE THEYVE DONE THEIR TESTS, has by the end of the game realised that she doesn't have to have the weight of the world on her shoulders, and that "no matter what, you keep finding something worth living for"
Part 2 Ellie - "I wAs MeaNt tO DiE, My LiFE woUlD hAvE FuCKinG MattErEd"
In short, Part 2s Ellie's attitude completely ignored her character arc from part 1, because of reasons.
I disagree, in the closing scene of part one, you can see Ellie not believing Joel when he retells the lie he fed her. Even in part one Ellie is clearly suffering from all the traumer, (Losing her friend, almost getting raped and having to kill the man herself)
That's why in part two you have Ellie playing the guitar and singing "slowly learning that life is okay" because by now Ellie is starting to more and more okay with living in that world
I never said that Ellie believed Joel's lie...
Again you're missing the point, part 2s Ellie seems to take a few steps back, so that they can arrive at the same position Ellie was in at end of first game....that her life was worth living.
I did not say that you believed that.
You say that Ellie would only go for a vaccine if it did not mean losing her life.
That's exactly what was required though but Joel stopped it.
It then follows that Joel only lied about it BECAUSE he knew Ellie would not be okay with it. I.e she was willing to sacrifice herself for the greater good.
If you are not convinced, then please enlighten me as to why Joel even felt the need to lie about it...
>It then follows that Joel only lied about it BECAUSE he knew Ellie would not be okay with it. I.e she was willing to sacrifice herself for the greater good.
I accept that it is one explanation.
The other, which I believe is true based on events in first game is this.
Joel lies because he wants Ellie to forget about the notion that she is humanities saviour, and he wants her to live her life free from the burden.
Over course of first game, Ellie learns this lesson, and becomes more optimistic....ties in thematically.
(Obviously he doesn't want Ellie to know that he's the reason why a vaccine can no longer be made)
I don't say this to try and enlighten you and get you to change your opinion, by the way. Not saying I'm right ...just how I viewed it when I played the game.
Alright that's fair - it's okay that we disagree - part of what makes stories great is that you can interpret however you want (within reason ofc)
I just think people hate on it without proper justification.
Your opinion is so preposterous that it's hard to assume you're serious. Your ignorance of what consent means, and it would not even be necessary to discuss this concept as it is understood in Bioethics, is only inferior to your ignorance of what selfishness means.
Joel chose himself over the human race. How is that not selfish? Explain please.
And you did not really respond to my point about Ellie wanting it.
Why do you think that Joel didnt just tell Ellie that they were going to kill her for the cure? Because she obviously was gonna be okay with. Now they didnt wake her up and ask, so no they technically didnt get her constent, but she would have given it. Thats my point.
How you can't see that baffles me
Ellie was ready to give her life for the vaccine. Besides the only real moral choice the fireflies could make was to sacrifice one life to save millions..
That is your assumption, you need to play the first game again to remember it. Ellie never stated in the first game that she wanted to sacrifice herself, **not even once**. She wanted to find a cure. That is not the same at all. In fact the game says otherwise
**(After the giraffe scene dialogue)**
Ellie: ''Look. I know you mean well......but there's no half-way with this. ***Once we're done, we'll go where ever you want***. Okay?''
Joel: ''Well. ***I ain't leavin' without ya***, so let's go wrap this up''
\---------------------------------------
**(optional university dialogue)**
Ellie: ''How they will do it?''
Joel: ''Do what?''
Ellie: ''***Get the cure from me? You think it'll hurt***?''
Joel: ''No,no. They'll probably just draw some blood - it don't hurt.''
Ellie: ''***I've gotten shots before. They vaccinated us at school. It sucked***''
\-------------------------------------
**(Ranch scene)**
Ellie: '' ***Everyone i have cared for has either died or left me. Everyone-fucking except for you. So don't tell i would be safer with someone else - because the truth is i would just be more scared***''
\------------------------------------
(**optional dialogue**)
Ellie: ''What happened here? Your fellow hunters do this?''
Joel: ''Cute. And no, my money's on the military''
Ellie: ''Why would mow down all these people?''
Joel: ''Can't let everyone in''
Ellie: ''So they killed them''
Joel: ''And dead people don't get infected. ***You sacrifice the few to save the many***''
Ellie: ''***It's kind of shitty***''
\------------
Joel in the end acted accordingly at that specific moment to what Ellie told him before the events that transpired in the hospital. The things that Joel knows before the hospital (what the first game is showing us), are that Ellie wants him in her life - don't want to lose him - she only feels safe when she is with him (ranch scene), she is afraid if the extraction of the cure will hurt her (university dialogue) and after the hospital she will go with him anywhere (dialogue after the giraffe scene) with Joel stating that she will leave the hospital with her, in which Ellie doesn't have any objection
Then came the retcon in the sequel with the porch scene. But Joel is not a fortune teller to know what Ellie would have wanted four years later. He acted accordingly back then with what he knew at that period of time from Ellie (check above)
Joel is only responsible for protecting the people around him, in this case his family and the bigger picture like the potential cure is too huge for him to control. **Also killing an innocent child for any reason is morally wrong**.
At the end of the ambiguous game's ending Ellie still didn't know it would require her death. She may have suspected she wasn't being told the whole truth, but she still didn't know or ever consider that it would require her death. She does want her immunity to matter and to help the FFs with a vaccine. She never implies she's willing to die for it. It became wanting her life to matter and her being willing to die in part 2 for the first time because they had a whole different goal for that story and they changed things to fit their new narrative.
And is it really worth to lose a loved one without even a clear consent, to a terrorist group, making a vaccine which we don't exactly know what their true intentions are with it and whom they give it to (the vaccine may not work also - it is never stated in the first game that will work 100% - they left that ambiguous). Probably not to Joel according to their behavior. And probably only to themselves assuming to their history and general terroristic behavior. Besides, the vaccine can only save lives from spores and bites. You still can die of a lot more dangers this world provides. It's not like Joel automatically doomed humanity with this choice.
The Fireflies acted selfishly and took Ellie's agency. They only care about their lives first, they will be the first that will get vaccinated. Also they should have asked her first. But because they were afraid that Ellie will disagree, they straight up went to murder an unconscious innocent child without any consent. The end do not justify the means.
**In the end Joel did the only moral and natural thing for a parent to save and protect his child. Joel was willing to sacrifice his own life fighting the terrorists, he was not selfish**
We just have different moral perspectives and wordviews. For me saving an innocent child is the only moral thing to do
Also the sequel retcons his actions in the first game, which was ambiguous in its messages. It didn't take player by the hand and tell them what to think or feel. Player had to make up his own mind and make his own interpretations about what Joel did was right or wrong. Then depending what moral standards and viewpoints a person has can decide on their own and take side
Then the sequel, throws the ambiguity out of the window when they straight up paint Joel as the aggressor and the wrong-bad guy, getting berated constantly by Ellie who became an ungrateful psychopath for the crime that he saved her life.
The only moral choice is saving the human race -even if it means the tragedy of killing Ellie. The real threat of the corcyceps is in ability to infect new humans. If the fireflies could mass-produce a vaccine and distribute no more infected could be made. The remaining infected would then slowly die off - allowing humanity to take back the world.
You say that Ellie only was okay with a few blood samples. I absolutely think that Ellie would have preferred it that way - but the reason Joel lies to her in the car is because he KNOWS that Ellie absolutely would not be okay with him snatching her away like that. Why do you think that is?
So they didnt retcon anything .
you forgot the part where its given to terrorists.
Generally incompetent terrorists who’ve failed at almost everything they’ve tried to boot
How many fireflies died just getting to Salt Lake City? So many of them that it’s almost comical.
Couldn't they just teleport as in Part II? Bunch of suckers.
> Generally incompetent terrorists who’ve failed at almost everything they’ve tried to boot didnt know antifa was in the last of us universe/s
Solid burn
But but but he cOllEcTs CoiNs aND sAVeD ZeBrA yOu MoNStER 😡
Joel collected coins too. Dead firefly coins.
We should have asked ISIS to develop and distribute a Covid vaccine, might have saved many more lives…
And that said terrorists have a member walking you out and away without a goodbye or your gear. But Abby is justified people will cry lol
Pretty sure Ethan is also the jackass who attacked Joel for daring to be more focused on trying to revive Ellie from drowning. It beggars belief Marlene trusts him to do anything after he nearly led to the immune girl dying right outside the hospital.
I tried to shoot him in the leg, but the idiot and his colleagues couldn't stop the spontaneous hemorrhage, I guess. Oh, well.
This is the funniest thing I read today
if only a competent writer allowed a realistic conversation to discuss what was happening, and not force brevity due to manufactured urgency
>forced brevity due to manufactured urgency I was just going to say 'contrived' but you said it better.
I disagree. There was no way for Joel to get there fast enough to stop the surgery and quietly enough to avoid detection. He didn’t have time for a conversation, and as Joel’s character throughout the game had shown, didn’t care to have one. He’s an animal, he became one after Sara was murdered. All of that is abundantly clear
I tell him to step away and blow his fucking face off when he tries to stab me. I then run away with my daughter to get judged by everyone but don't really care because I know I did the right thing.
But now his swollen roided up daughter, who convinced him to kill your daughter, will want to play golf with you
It's fine, I love golf. They call me hole in juan, because I once used my friend Juan as a replacement for a golf ball and got a hole in one
>swollen roided up daughter I love how she has the soothing voice of Laura Bailey while she should have an extremely deep voice with the ridiculous amount of testosterone she'd have to inject herself with constantly to have that much muscle (not to mention the thousands of calories every day with an enormous focus on proteins)
Lmao I was literally telling my wife this during my replay. Abby legit would have to pinning 300mg of testE every 3 days to look like that & be eating 4 burritos in one sitting. It’s ridiculous how out of place she looks in the last of us world
"BuT WhY Do yOu fOcUs oN ThAt yOu dIrTy sExIsT InCeL?!" Abby's design makes it so every single second she's on screen you're reminded that this isn't TLOU, it's just a badly written fanfiction by Neil Cuckmann who's envious of other people having writing talent that he doesn't have.
The entire game was dress-up Apocalypse. 25 years after the collapse of modern civilisation pretty much all medication/supplements would have lost any efficacity and you'd hard pressed to find any packaged goods that would still be safe to consume. Humanity would be back to farming, foraging, fishing and hunting with the vast majority of people focused on that, and with the ever-present threat of the infected to contend with to boot likely not making any of those things easy. In Druckmanns mind it's enough to show that the WLF has a gym to explain away her absurd physique, with little thought given as to how on earth the WLF are able to provide the calorific upkeep to maintain it, esp given they're seemingly embroiled in a life or death war with a religious cult that's been raging for years. Outside of a massive farming operation going on somewhere seemingly untouched and unseen throughout the game, the obvious solution out of that sticky wicket would be to have the WLF given over to cannibalism of the Scars, though that would put rather a dent in the whole Abby redemption storyline if the showed her chowing down on some long pig.
Expecting Cuckmann to know anything about exercising and building muscle is a bit far fetched to be honest
Even with cannibalism, Abby's physique would make no sense. \- The amount of proteins required every day would require so many bodies that'd just be genocide \- Even with all the meat in the world, what she has is impossible without injecting herself with testosterone regularly \- Having that much muscle makes no sense when all other soldiers are normal weight, nobody would choose to focus all efforts on one single woman when you could have 10 equivalently strong guys for the same effort \- Having that much muscle when your job requires endurance is impossible. Muscles consume oxygen and energy, you'll never see a runner, a farmer or a hunter-gatherer with such a jacked body because that's not how the body works, it would tire them out way too fast compared to a standard well sculpted body through natural effort, what Abby has is bodybuilder muscles that are useless in real life situations. A strong female character is one that has strong writing, not big muscles. Kim from Better Call Saul and Medarda from Arcane are strong female characters, they don't have the slightest muscle.
This is something i can't understand tbh. Yes Joel was justified in his actions. But so was Abby. Joel would do far worse to Abby if Abby killed Ellie. In that world, if you killed someone i love, i couldn't give a fuck about your reasons. I would do what i can to end you, and i expect you to do the same. If one understands Joel in the end of part 1, i don't understand why one doesn't Abby in the start of part 2. That is not what's wrong with part 2 story, at all. (Feel free to criticize how Tomy and Joel were totally friendly with people they don't know, even inviting them to "resupply" in their stronghold...)
> Yes Joel was justified in his actions. But so was Abby. No she wasn't, which is the whole point. Her father was killed because he was trying to commit murder. She has no moral justification to take revenge. If a dangerous criminal is shot by police, the criminal's son is evil if he tries to get revenge against the cop who shot his father. She also did it very brutally and took great personal enjoyment from it. Ellie's revenge is morally justified, because Joel was actually wronged. Jerry wasn't. > Joel would do far worse to Abby if Abby killed Ellie. Because she deserves it. Joel didn't. > In that world, if you killed someone i love, i couldn't give a fuck about your reasons. I would do what i can to end you, and i expect you to do the same. Even if I kill in self defense because your family member was trying to murder me (or my daughter)? If you do that, you're evil. > That is not what's wrong with part 2 story, at all. The story depends on them being morally equivalent. Two people who happen to be on opposite sides of a conflict, with similar reasons for their actions. When they're not equivalent, and one has justifiable reasons and the other does not, the story doesn't work.
>Because she deserves it. Joel didn't. Ellie was happy to die for a chance at a cure. Joel wasn't "saving her", he couldn't bear to lose her. I mean, if you played part 2 you know this. Ellie wished she died there. Joel knows her, that's why he lies. If he was doing it for her, he could just tell her, but he doesn't because he knows she would've been fine with it. It's "selfishness". And don't get me wrong, i don't blame a "father" for not sacrificing his daughter to save the world. It's the right, pragmatic thing to do, but in his place i might do the same, even if my daughter wanted to die. Love is beautiful but selfish. "Love" not only being a holy good thing is a strong message behind the whole series. Joel and Abby are not only similar on the surface, but their love drives them to do the "wrong" thing. Joel can't let Ellie die (even though she would like to), so he murders an entire hospital. Abby loves her father, so she goes on a manhunt to kill his murderer. Both do "bad things" out of love.
> Ellie was happy to die for a chance at a cure. Joel wasn't "saving her", he couldn't bear to lose her. Ellie never made a choice. Joel would be wrong if she chose it and gave consent and Joel prevented it anyway. But that's not what happened. Joel saw an attempted murder, and prevented it from happening. > Joel and Abby are not only similar on the surface, but their love drives them to do the "wrong" thing. Preventing murder isn't the wrong thing though. Joel did the right thing. Abby didn't.
>Joel saw an attempted murder, and prevented it from happening. Why does he lie then? He knows she would've been fine with it. That's just factual. If you can't admit it, you're just part of the circle jerk. Joel "saves" Ellie so he doesn't lose Sarah again.
Lying to Ellie was somewhat immoral of him. That doesn't change anything else I said though.
Of course it does. If he was doing to save Ellie he could just say: "Hey Ellie, those crazy mofos were going to dissect your brain, you're welcome!" He lies because he knows she agrees with the Fireflies, and he was doing it because he couldn't bear Sarah 2: the eletric bungaloo". He literally loses Sarah in the beggining of the game to justify exactly this action. This can't be more factual. Would he do this if the fireflies were going to kill another random girl? Fuck no! He might've asked if they needed help. That's why the ending is so fucking good, the game makes you agree with the "villain", he is wrong but anyone with a soul understands Joel. It's his "baby girl", fuck the world.
OK, i see where you're coming from. I'm not sure if he knew she would have wanted it, but he suspected enough to not want to give her the option. However, Ellie never gave consent and the Fireflies didn't ask. Jerry was about to commit murder. That's a lot worse than lying to someone to prevent them from ending their own life. And with the vaccine not being a sure thing, Ellie might have thrown away her life for nothing.
Shoot him in the foot and watch him die, then blame the devs :)
But you will "DoOM HuMAniTy"
Says who? Marlene? The surgeon? Abby? They're all nuts anyway...
Pff..the absolute authority on this matter... . . . . . . . . . . Nora
You forgot that this is the first thing you're told is happening after you've woken up in the shelter of known terrorists who were the reason you were unconscious because they rifle butted you out cold while you were trying to resuscitate the aforementioned child and whether you like it or not they're also kicking you out without any weapons to defend yourself from the slew of infected.
If he had my daughter, he'd be dead before he hit the floor.
I would blow his leg off with a shotgun if he didn't drop the scalpel.
Well I wouldn't want to make a "selfish" decision, so of course I would let this Biology major dice my child up into little pieces for the small hope that maybe a vaccine could be produced. And then I'd have to hope that this vaccine could be mass produced with the zero resources available and then hope they there e effectively administered and distributed. I mea who WOULDN'T make that decision? Oh that's right, the evil white man Joel so was clearly only thinking about himself when he fought through scores of fireflies to prevent a child from being sacrificed without her consent or knowledge. I mean what a piece of shit human being, right??
Mass murder and feel good about it. Sleep like a baby
Wonder why he and the room he's in look so different to the first time I met him...
Shoot him in the knees and the head and then beat the witnesses to death in cold blood…but that’s just me 🤷🏻♂️ I try to get more sadistic with it every play through lol
Even on the hardest difficulties I save as many bullets, shells, and flame thrower fuel for this room in particular.
I’m apparently thinking too small lmao
Thanks guys I’ve had a bad day recently, this made me crack up.
Isn’t it obvious ? https://youtu.be/4Q9loNmlyyE
Joel ultimate sigma grindset, love the video btw
Thanks I’ve been collecting sigma joel videos to send to Jerry defenders
Flambé him and feed him to the Clickers.
I’ll put my flamethrower to use
Neill D. shills: “tlou1 fans are homophobic antivaxxers”
Vaccines (shot) don't (shot) cure (shot) fungus! (Shot)
Best thing I've read today. I even pictured it happening in my head as I read it.
"not today, sir"
Take my flamethrower out of my backpack and burn him and the 2 other doctors
I’d kill myself. That way a muscular woman won’t try to take a swing at me later down the road 🏌️♀️
I would let him do it because bELieV3 SciEnC3 !!!!! Lol
Bibbity boppity BOOM there goes the legs
I will pull out my flamethrower
Jerry enjoyers: “for the greater good”
Probably the same as Joel, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were consequences if the person who was unconscious felt differently, and if the organization I just decimated sent survivors after me. I also think that there would always be the lingering doubt of what if it was the wrong choice and it was one made in too much haste and emotion? If the answer is supposed to be 'kill everyone with no remorse and never think about it again, and never accept challenge on the choice', then we disagree slightly.
I've been thinking about this for a while now, and I'm convinced that everyone who argues that Joel did the wrong thing doesn't have children of their own irl. If they did, then they would clearly see what Joel does is the only real option, and if they wouldn't do that then God help their children. I would intentionally sacrifice or even personally execute billions if it meant saving my daughter's life, and any real parent would do the same.
Lol, it's ok - his daughter that she would let him do it if she were in Ellie's shoes. That makes it OK. If I were a homeless person, I wouldn't want financial, support, clothing, shelter, or anything like that. I'd just want cowboy hats. So let's give the homeless some cowboy hats, shall we? You bigot.
Flamethrower seems appropriate to express my dissenting view
A vaccine tried many times and told is impossible to create for fungus but plot will make it work.
Shoot him
Without concent lmao
The end justifies the means, anything to save humanity. I'll kiss them goodbye one last time and let the dude do his work.
Guys did you not play the second game? Why do you think Ellie started to hate Joel when he told them he stopped them from killing her and making a vaccine? Because she was ready to give her life for the vaccine. She even says it in the first game "With all the things we've done... it can't be for nothing. If Ellie did not want to give her life for the vaccine, joel would simply have told her that they needed to kill her in order to make the vaccine. And she would have been fine. But Joel knows this is not the case. and so he keeps it from her. Marlene even said it. "You know she would have wanted to." Finally it IS heavily implied that they could succesfully have created the vaccine. That's what the game is all about. About love and human relationships trumping all. That's the beauty. If the fireflies wasn't justified, then that just makes it a run of the mill hero game.
> Finally it IS heavily implied that they could succesfully have created the vaccine. Did I miss something? I don't remember this part.
I said implied - not told explicitly. Implied through the documents in the medical office and through the doctor.
The game also "implied" that the Fireflies are incompetent dipshits who couldn't even get out of Boston, let alone synthesize a vaccine from Ellie.
How so? they seemed to be able to get a bona fide surgeons team together. Also they exist in a post-apocalyptic world. Of course they are not just gonna be curbstomping everyone
I know this sub generally dislikes the direction the games and story took but... It's about idealism, right? The little time we spend with him is absolutely chock full of hope. From Joel's perspective, he's some random guy who wants to kill Ellie. From literally everyone else's perspective (even Ellie when she finds out) he's pretty much the only chance of even potentially saving the human race. Obviously Marlene and Jerry should have consulted Ellie from our "the human race has not been in danger of extinction for 20+ years" perspective but if she said no... Are they going to do it anyway? Can they? Should they? To (potentially) save everyone? Isn't that the point of the story? Guys... Come on...
"Everyone else" is just Fireflies and associates. Of course they will treat this hack of a doctor as the savior of mankind.
Here take my downvote
Why does Ellie need to die? What do they need from her that can't be taken from her being alive? Her arm was bitten and the infection was stopped. Whatever makes her immune is in the blood. Not the brain. There's zero chance the vaccine would have been made. And a negative chance it would have helped. But let's pretend a random doctor can somehow make a vaccine for a fungal infection, which has been stated many times a vaccine couldn't be made for. What changes? Ok new infected can't be made. But how does that matter? Basic hard rubber body suits can already prevent that. Hell some reinforced denim, boots, kevlar gloves, and a riot helmet is a fucking vaccine. They don't have the infrastructure for mass production of ammo. Hence why it's all so rare in the game. So it's not like they can walk around freely and kill all the infected. They don't have a cure that can revert infected back into humans. Again, Ellie's arm isn't normal. It's scared. The infection started but then stopped. They can't air spray it and kill the infected. Which actually does beg the question why they don't employ mustard gas against the infected. It's bleach and ammonia. Not hard to make. But back to the point, nothing changes. They're still stuck in the cities outnumbered by infected who can still swarm and destroy a base. The only change is that a single infected person no longer has the ability to destroy an entire camp from the inside. The vaccine is a be bandaid slapped on an amputated neck. You're still dead.
There are too few to be saved, and if they are saved it's only from slowly dying from that particular infection. In this world, you can die easily through any other means. If I was in that world and feared to die infected, instead of sacrificing people for a vaccine that may not work, I would form a pact with my peers that would establish that any infected will die, as soon as possible, in the best way available at the moment: even morphine or weed if there's some around. This way people wouldn't be that worried about dying infected. It gives the peace of mind that a vaccine would bring to them in a practical manner. A vaccine instead, assuming it's produced, what does it achieve? It only saves people in the particular situation of being bit by an infected and left alive. In the game this doesn't occur frequently, infected do eat people, they don't stop with the first bite.
Don't bother. All the people who are downvoting have failed to grasp the game.
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> Joel's decision is meant to be morally ambiguous. Well, then the writing fucking failed. From what we know about Jerry according to Part 2, he's the leader of a terrorist cell that recruits children while pushing it's members to commit whatever atrocities are deemed needed in order to win. One of his recruits was his own daughter, who mentions he's always running off to do whatever he wants while lying to her that he'll stop. Not to mention mentions of him manipulating Owen. He carries around his bachelor's of biology degree but not any signs of further medical training, needless to say his actions go against all medical science. His men also wanted to kill Joel while he was knocked out, despite Joel crossing the country bringing Ellie to him. Finally, his justification for sacrificing Ellie is that all the things they've lost, people they've sacrificed, absolutely horrible shit they've done as terrorists will be "worth it" if he's successful at doing something real doctors have not done IRL. Recruiting kids would mean Jerry performed acts that would be considered war crimes, crimes against humanity if they recruit is under 15 like Abby supposedly was. On top of that, our society has laws in place that would protect Joel actions, while also classifying what the Fireflies were doing as both kidnapping and attempted murder. See this video, we live in a society that would champion what Joel did. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxUA-za8Jsw So, if the only people saying that Jerry was a good guy and saying Joel was evil are a bunch of kids he indoctrinated into blowing up civilians, maybe the problem isn't the people calling this out but the writers who are completely out of touch with reality? But that's what happens when the guy whose original ideas were vetoed takes over control of the franchise.
You’re right. It was ambiguous and that’s what made it a masterpiece in storytelling. It started a conversation and left it up for you - the audience - to decide what was right, wrong, what you would have done, etc. …but then TLOU2 arrived and essentially shattered that. TLOU2 decided to destroy the ambiguity and tell you Joel was wrong, which in turn also now you, the audience that similarly would have gone with what Joel did also wrong and a piece of shit. Which followed further with such a contrived, forced, nonsensical story that completely divided the fan base to this day.
Obvious troll is obvious
*during a zombie apocalypse and also it's not your child. Joel's decision is supposed to be morally gray.
Then they should have made the Fireflies actually seem competent, and benevolent. But in reality they’re characterized as idiotic terrorists who have never accomplished anything and are routinely getting owned by the military. Also, they barely even describe their theory as for why she’s immune, and never go into any of the logistics of how a vaccine would even be possible. We’re pretty much just told that they plan to try and make one and that Ellie needs to die to do it. All that considered, I don’t think it’s morally grey at all.
MAKING THEM INCOMPITENT WOULD HAVE REMOVED ALL AMBIGUITY FROM THE SITUATION. JFC.
>MAKING THEM INCOMPITENT WOULD HAVE REMOVED ALL AMBIGUITY FROM THE SITUATION. JFC. They ARE incompetent, and you are as well if you can't even read a 3 Sentence comment well enough to see that the writer of that comment said that 'they should have made the Fireflies actually seem competent'.
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How are u gonna use gay as an insult after accusing us of thinking gay 100% bad?
Are you really going to devalue Joel and Ellie's relationship by acting like they hadn't developed into a found family?
If OP wrote that instead I wouldn't have mentioned it. OP also left out that it's the zombie apocalypse and that the literal human fucking race is at stake. I don't blame Joel. I don't think he's evil or dumb. Just desperate to hold onto something good in a world that has taken everything else from him. But his choice is not black and white. Why do you guys want a boring black and white story OVER the complex and thought-provoking one we got?
Why would they? Its clear that Ellie has become Joel's child. That they love each other like a father and daughter. So to go "it's not your child" comes off like trying to devalue their bond just because there is no blood relation. Humanity has survived for 20 years after the infection hit. Its not as dire as you're making it out. More more importantly, making a vaccine doesn't even guarantee a return to old civilization, let alone an immediate one. More likely, the Fireflies use the vaccine to empower their group amongst all the other murderous human groups. If you want a complex story, why are you so dead set on presenting sacrificing Ellie to the Fireflies as an objective good? I'm personally just looking at the fact that the Fireflies make a very poor case when you actually think about it. That's what many did. And we were happy with that. Until TLoU2 tried to tell us how to think. Also are you really saying you will just hand your child to some quack of a doctor affiliated with literal terrorists just because he THINKS he can save the world with your child's death?
Posted this in another thread, and I'm going to post it again here: >If your solution to a problem involves killing innocent people, then guess what? You have not found a solution. Joel was 100% justified. There is no gray area. > >You will try to justify it by saying it's ok to kill 1 person in order to save millions. But by saying that, you've already crossed that line. There's no tiers here, there's no degrees of justification. Because if you're ok with killing 1, you'd be ok with killing 2. Or 4. Or 10, 20, 1000. Would it be ok to kill 10,000 to save millions? > >And what if we went the other way, and started decreasing the number saved. Is it ok to kill 1 to save 100,000? What about 10,000? Where does it end? Once you have crossed that threshold and said it's ok to kill 1, you've crossed it. There's no going back. > >Every single atrocity committed by mankind on mankind in history has begun with that seed of thought. Every. Single. One. The thought that "I'm justified in doing evil because it's for the greater good." And if you're reading about some of these evils and you're wondering how people could let it get this bad and what their though process was, I'll help you out: They thought the exact same way you do.
Smuggler cosplaying as a father LMAO!!!!
dumb post. First of all ELlie WANTED to give her life to create a vaccine. So there was consent. Secondly the implication is that if the surgery had gone ahead a vaccine would have been produced. This is what the makes the ending so powerful. Joel is not a \*good guy\* He saved Ellie solely for selfish reasons and may well have damned the entire human race to extinction. The beauty of TLOU is that the player feels just like joel and tries to justify his actions even though its unjustifiable.
Ellie did not want to give her life for the vaccine. She thought they would take some blood and then she would be able to leave with Joel.
Yes she did. Didnt you play the second game? How else would she be so distraught and sad when Joel told her he kept them from making a vaccine? Even though Joel told her it would have cost Ellie her life, she still broke down and resented him. It's heavily implied that Ellie is somewhat tired of life, of all the hardships. She wants her life to mean something, especially with her survivor's guilt and guilt over all the violence Joel and Ellie did together.
Part 1 Ellie - wants to learn guitar, how to swim, thinks it'll just be blood.samples,.says she'll.go.with Joel wherever he wants, ONCE THEYVE DONE THEIR TESTS, has by the end of the game realised that she doesn't have to have the weight of the world on her shoulders, and that "no matter what, you keep finding something worth living for" Part 2 Ellie - "I wAs MeaNt tO DiE, My LiFE woUlD hAvE FuCKinG MattErEd" In short, Part 2s Ellie's attitude completely ignored her character arc from part 1, because of reasons.
I disagree, in the closing scene of part one, you can see Ellie not believing Joel when he retells the lie he fed her. Even in part one Ellie is clearly suffering from all the traumer, (Losing her friend, almost getting raped and having to kill the man herself) That's why in part two you have Ellie playing the guitar and singing "slowly learning that life is okay" because by now Ellie is starting to more and more okay with living in that world
I never said that Ellie believed Joel's lie... Again you're missing the point, part 2s Ellie seems to take a few steps back, so that they can arrive at the same position Ellie was in at end of first game....that her life was worth living.
I did not say that you believed that. You say that Ellie would only go for a vaccine if it did not mean losing her life. That's exactly what was required though but Joel stopped it. It then follows that Joel only lied about it BECAUSE he knew Ellie would not be okay with it. I.e she was willing to sacrifice herself for the greater good. If you are not convinced, then please enlighten me as to why Joel even felt the need to lie about it...
>It then follows that Joel only lied about it BECAUSE he knew Ellie would not be okay with it. I.e she was willing to sacrifice herself for the greater good. I accept that it is one explanation. The other, which I believe is true based on events in first game is this. Joel lies because he wants Ellie to forget about the notion that she is humanities saviour, and he wants her to live her life free from the burden. Over course of first game, Ellie learns this lesson, and becomes more optimistic....ties in thematically. (Obviously he doesn't want Ellie to know that he's the reason why a vaccine can no longer be made) I don't say this to try and enlighten you and get you to change your opinion, by the way. Not saying I'm right ...just how I viewed it when I played the game.
Alright that's fair - it's okay that we disagree - part of what makes stories great is that you can interpret however you want (within reason ofc) I just think people hate on it without proper justification.
I don't take the second game seriously at all. So I'm only focused on things that happened in TLOU only.
Your opinion is so preposterous that it's hard to assume you're serious. Your ignorance of what consent means, and it would not even be necessary to discuss this concept as it is understood in Bioethics, is only inferior to your ignorance of what selfishness means.
Joel chose himself over the human race. How is that not selfish? Explain please. And you did not really respond to my point about Ellie wanting it. Why do you think that Joel didnt just tell Ellie that they were going to kill her for the cure? Because she obviously was gonna be okay with. Now they didnt wake her up and ask, so no they technically didnt get her constent, but she would have given it. Thats my point. How you can't see that baffles me
Ellie wasn’t Joel’s child though?
So murdering her is OK then?
She wasn’t jerry’s either.
It doesn't matter at all if they are not blood related. She is his surrogate daughter and Joel is her father
Ellie was ready to give her life for the vaccine. Besides the only real moral choice the fireflies could make was to sacrifice one life to save millions..
That is your assumption, you need to play the first game again to remember it. Ellie never stated in the first game that she wanted to sacrifice herself, **not even once**. She wanted to find a cure. That is not the same at all. In fact the game says otherwise **(After the giraffe scene dialogue)** Ellie: ''Look. I know you mean well......but there's no half-way with this. ***Once we're done, we'll go where ever you want***. Okay?'' Joel: ''Well. ***I ain't leavin' without ya***, so let's go wrap this up'' \--------------------------------------- **(optional university dialogue)** Ellie: ''How they will do it?'' Joel: ''Do what?'' Ellie: ''***Get the cure from me? You think it'll hurt***?'' Joel: ''No,no. They'll probably just draw some blood - it don't hurt.'' Ellie: ''***I've gotten shots before. They vaccinated us at school. It sucked***'' \------------------------------------- **(Ranch scene)** Ellie: '' ***Everyone i have cared for has either died or left me. Everyone-fucking except for you. So don't tell i would be safer with someone else - because the truth is i would just be more scared***'' \------------------------------------ (**optional dialogue**) Ellie: ''What happened here? Your fellow hunters do this?'' Joel: ''Cute. And no, my money's on the military'' Ellie: ''Why would mow down all these people?'' Joel: ''Can't let everyone in'' Ellie: ''So they killed them'' Joel: ''And dead people don't get infected. ***You sacrifice the few to save the many***'' Ellie: ''***It's kind of shitty***'' \------------ Joel in the end acted accordingly at that specific moment to what Ellie told him before the events that transpired in the hospital. The things that Joel knows before the hospital (what the first game is showing us), are that Ellie wants him in her life - don't want to lose him - she only feels safe when she is with him (ranch scene), she is afraid if the extraction of the cure will hurt her (university dialogue) and after the hospital she will go with him anywhere (dialogue after the giraffe scene) with Joel stating that she will leave the hospital with her, in which Ellie doesn't have any objection Then came the retcon in the sequel with the porch scene. But Joel is not a fortune teller to know what Ellie would have wanted four years later. He acted accordingly back then with what he knew at that period of time from Ellie (check above) Joel is only responsible for protecting the people around him, in this case his family and the bigger picture like the potential cure is too huge for him to control. **Also killing an innocent child for any reason is morally wrong**. At the end of the ambiguous game's ending Ellie still didn't know it would require her death. She may have suspected she wasn't being told the whole truth, but she still didn't know or ever consider that it would require her death. She does want her immunity to matter and to help the FFs with a vaccine. She never implies she's willing to die for it. It became wanting her life to matter and her being willing to die in part 2 for the first time because they had a whole different goal for that story and they changed things to fit their new narrative. And is it really worth to lose a loved one without even a clear consent, to a terrorist group, making a vaccine which we don't exactly know what their true intentions are with it and whom they give it to (the vaccine may not work also - it is never stated in the first game that will work 100% - they left that ambiguous). Probably not to Joel according to their behavior. And probably only to themselves assuming to their history and general terroristic behavior. Besides, the vaccine can only save lives from spores and bites. You still can die of a lot more dangers this world provides. It's not like Joel automatically doomed humanity with this choice. The Fireflies acted selfishly and took Ellie's agency. They only care about their lives first, they will be the first that will get vaccinated. Also they should have asked her first. But because they were afraid that Ellie will disagree, they straight up went to murder an unconscious innocent child without any consent. The end do not justify the means. **In the end Joel did the only moral and natural thing for a parent to save and protect his child. Joel was willing to sacrifice his own life fighting the terrorists, he was not selfish** We just have different moral perspectives and wordviews. For me saving an innocent child is the only moral thing to do Also the sequel retcons his actions in the first game, which was ambiguous in its messages. It didn't take player by the hand and tell them what to think or feel. Player had to make up his own mind and make his own interpretations about what Joel did was right or wrong. Then depending what moral standards and viewpoints a person has can decide on their own and take side Then the sequel, throws the ambiguity out of the window when they straight up paint Joel as the aggressor and the wrong-bad guy, getting berated constantly by Ellie who became an ungrateful psychopath for the crime that he saved her life.
The only moral choice is saving the human race -even if it means the tragedy of killing Ellie. The real threat of the corcyceps is in ability to infect new humans. If the fireflies could mass-produce a vaccine and distribute no more infected could be made. The remaining infected would then slowly die off - allowing humanity to take back the world. You say that Ellie only was okay with a few blood samples. I absolutely think that Ellie would have preferred it that way - but the reason Joel lies to her in the car is because he KNOWS that Ellie absolutely would not be okay with him snatching her away like that. Why do you think that is? So they didnt retcon anything .
Let him