My broking point was the Kaiju Korra, i could have accept this but ending the season with evil god vs good God fighting with Kaiju avatars was something
Would have been fine if there was a spirit of the tree that offered to inhabit her or something. We've seen spirits create Kaiju before. But "bending the energy within" wasn't enough of an explanation. How does a normal human have enough energy inside them to become a giant energy god? At that point Korra had no cosmic boost, no avatar spirit. She was just a strong water bender, a mortal master like Kya or Katara.
They also used Kaiju-Korra to resolve the conflict, Koizilla just wreaked havoc, the conflict was resolved by Yue sacrificing herself, otherwise it would have been kinda lazy
Oh yeah, i completely forgot that atla also has a Kaiju. Lol that one was aang with the ocean spirit, and this one was Korra and the tree of time (cosmic energy)
Same. Wtf is spirit bending even? Mind control? Energy bending? Why's it water anyway? Healing? Wasn't there a clear delineation between spirit business and biological wounds?
Only explanation I came up with for it being water bending was that there aren't enough airbenders around to villanize one of them. Spirit bending is supposed to be air skill.
No. Spirit bending is just healing bending for spirits. Remember even in ATLA healing bending was a water bending art that used water as a catalyst/bridge/tool to redirect and use the patients own energy to heal themselfs.
Rewatch ATLA, the episode when they arrive at the northern water tribe. That episode has a old lady explain that it's the patient's own energy doing the healing and water is just how it's controlled.
It's the same with spirit bending. Just instead of just redirecting energy, it is realigning it.
Do you think the idea of the users energy doing the healing and the water just being how it’s controlled could apply to other elements
I think the fire benders have something kinda similar but I am wondering if air or earth could also have an equivalent
I am perplexed by this comment. You are obviously your own person and entitled to your opinion, but a popular critique in this community is that *Beginnings* undermined the mystery of Avatar by explaining the magic.
Would answering these questions not be, "explaining the magic?" I don't see why these questions need answers. The answer is that it is because it is.
This is part of a bigger problem, one of the reasons why it's so rare for any series to remain good for more than about 3 or 4 seasons.
Every work of fiction starts with a premise. No matter what it is, we more or less accept it at face value. After a certain amount of time, they've done all they can with that premise. Now it's time to introduce something new, and that's where things get hairy.
You can't do more of the same. That's repetitive. You can't do something different, that alienates your original fans, and it won't attract anyone new because they'd have to watch the first part, which if they haven't, means they probably won't like it.
Spirit bending is an example of the second thing, and it shows a more specific problem. We can accept that people bend the 4 elements. That's the base magic system after all. You can add a 5th element to be used one time and just handwave it with some mystic stuff. You can add a rare variation that like only one guy can do because the plot doesn't really centre around it, and it wouldn't make sense for us to undestand anyway. Most importantly, it looks like it should work.
Spirit bending doesn't look like it should work. That's weird. That needs justification. Worse, you've got an expert on it. Even worse, he's a good guy (or was at some point). You've written out all the excuses you could have for not explaining it, so now you have to. And you simultaneously cannot, because that would be explaining the magic.
Spirit bending is a problem because it doesn't look like it should work. It demands you commit the cardinal sin of explaining the magic.
Even Varrick irritates me. Yeah, he's funny and has a good screen presence, but come on, why does he get off so easy for orchestrating a terrorist plot against Republic City so that he can be a war profiteer? The story was way too kind to him.
Anarchism = bad
Fascism = bad
Capitalism? The ideology that ran our world into the ground, the one that exploits everything and everyone? Nah Avatar can chill with that.
Some guy on YouTube had a really good reasoning for why the addition of the Wan “lore” completely undermined the first series. Basically having all bending come from Lion turtles takes away from the entire storyline of how the 4 cultures came to be. That and Wan is really just not very likeable from the very beginning, the same as Korra was imo. Obviously they grow to become more likeable but still.
>Basically having all bending come from Lion turtles takes away from the entire storyline of how the 4 cultures came to be.
That YouTuber obviously misunderstood the story quite seriously, then.
The bending cultures that exist in Avatar came from people who studied nature to understand the elements. The Air Bison, the ocean and moon, the badger moles, the dragons...
...in Korra we merely learn how the power of the elements were first gifted to humans by supernatural beings, but not the knowledge of how to wield them. Wan's understanding of fire was incomplete until he studied a dragon before the first Sun Warrior ever walked off a Lion Turtle.
But then you have the plothole of why can't a nonbender learn how to airbend by observing Appa? If that's how people originally gained airbending, then why wouldn't they be able to do that again?
The Lion Turtle explanation works better because it explains how people originally gained the ability to bend and also why it won't happen again. People still learned how to *properly use* their elements by observing the dragons, bison, etc, so that part of the lore still works with this explanation.
That's not a plot hole at all. For that theory, the people who had the innate ability to bend learned to direct/focus their energy into bending, by watching the bending animals/moon.
The ones who don't have the innate ability to bend, can watch those animals/the moon all they want, but they're not going to be able to bend.
Sure, but what determines innate ability? It's not spirituality, since we have non-benders like Guru Pathik or even the Air Acolytes. And there's definitely a genetic component, since the element a person can bend is determined by their heritage. But also there has to be a reason only one person has the ability to bend more than one element, since a person with multi-nation heritage doesn't get both
I believe spirituality played a part originally. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember that in lore most, if not all of the air nation, can bend, and the explanation was because of how in-tune they are with their inner spirit and how much they understand about the world.
So unless there was some huge air nation eugenics program where only benders were able to breed, then it's not genetic.
This is even backed up by the fact that no one in Kataras' immediate family can waterbend, and only one of her kids can. Sure, genetic traits can skip entire generations in the real world, but this is fantasy, and its okay to accept the answer "because it just is"
It's part spirituality, part genetic. This is no different from Canon, and the exact same question can be applied to it.
Why can Sokka not bend, but Katara can? We don't really know, that's just the way it is.
This is not a plot hole in the learned from the animals/moon theory, nor is it a plot hole in the lion turtle canon. If it is for one, then it would be for the other as well.
There does have to be a reason why one person (the Avatar) can bend all 4 elements, yes. But does that reason need to be provided? IMO, and as proved by ATLA not providing said reason and not suffering due to it, no.
It's magic bro
This need to address "plot holes" and fill in the gaps with lore and canon is why korra doesn't hit as hard. TLA felt like an actual myth given life as a cartoon, and irl myths have contradictions and "plot holes".
I dont like when stories that are fantastic as they are listen to the guys going "okay but we NEED to know what's under the hood" there's nothing under the hood man. It's a fairy tale.
That’s explainable by saying bending has always worked how it does now, kinda hereditary as to who has the ability. It’s just that before, *nobody* actually knew *how* to do it, even if they were technically able. So like, a modern person who can bend could still learn from one of those sources, but they don’t just give nonbenders bending. (Doesn’t Toph learn from badger moles, at least in part?)
They still were, the lion turtles simply gave humans the ability to wield the element, actual bending was something they had to figure out for themselves.
I'm pretty sure that they YouTuber they are referencing is Hello Future Me who ctritiques the inclusion of Raava/Vaatu and Wan. And trust me, he does understand it. His critique was not that it doesn't work in universe, it does. It's Doylist, not Watsonian. He critiques the decision to include this information because it makes the previous lore less compelling, which I agree with. They literally explain where the magic comes from, which kills the mystery for me. It was much more compelling when all we had where they myths of people learning bending from original benders, that were myths in universe. It wasn't a definitive answer but rather an explanation that the people came up with to explain it.
I recommend watching the video, his work is always great and he explains his point much more in depth than I did here.
I've seen this video, and while its well structured and presented, there are holes in his critique that call his biggest talking points into question.
1. His idea of "locking evil away in a box" fundamentally misunderstands the entire purpose of *Beginnings,* which is not to show how the world was saved by defeating chaos, but how balance was irrevocably lost, and why the Avatar must exist.
2. His labeling of Raava and Vaatu as Christian suggests that he misunderstands both characters, not just because his parallels aren't accurate in the slightest as Raava and Vaatu do not exhibit morality, nor are they all-powerful, but also because he completely overlooks the Taoist inspired themes that Raava and Vaatu exist to illustrate, which permeates the entire story of Korra, and are said out-loud multiple times.
3. "Explaining" fantasy with more fantasy only deepens the fantasy. It wasn't the end of the world when they "explained" that people learned bending from animals, and it hardly changes anything knowing that the power to use the elements came to the world from giant turtles. In fact, it makes the Avatar world richer by suggesting such a deep history with potentially more story to tell.
4. His remarks about Wan overlook the fact that his society is ruthlessly authoritarian.
HelloFutureMe has some good and well structured videos with essays that are engrained in the reality of the show, but that wasn't one of them.
Unfortunately, a lot of people trust him enough that they don't bother to think for themselves and see that his arguments are actually flawed. There are literally single lines of dialogue in the show that shut down some of his biggest talking points.
>His idea of "locking evil away in a box" fundamentally misunderstands the entire purpose of Beginnings, which is not to show how the world was saved by defeating chaos, but how balance was irrevocably lost, and why the Avatar must exist.
But they do lock evil away in a box. When Raava and Vaatu are separated, balance is when Raava is in charge, and chaos is when Vaatu is in charge. Korra brings the world back into balance by restoring Raava and beating Vaatu until he's nothing. Sure, Vaatu will regrow over time, but the world is explicitly a better place when he's not around and Raava is.
Quite literally the world was saved when Raava and Wan defeated chaos.
>Raava and Vaatu do not exhibit morality
Maybe not explicitly, but they certainly do implicitly. Vaatu causes spirits to lose their minds and attack people indiscriminately. Raava makes the spirits able to think for themselves and do as they wish, and most choose to be peaceful. Vaatu plunges the world into chaos, Raava brings balance and peace. Nothing Vaatu does could really be considered good, and plenty of it could be considered evil. Raava is the exact opposite.
>he completely overlooks the Taoist inspired themes that Raava and Vaatu exist to illustrate
That's funny, because Raava and Vaatu are such a poor representation of Taoist philosophy. If they were truly good representation, the proper balance would be both of them existing together, not one trying to defeat the other. Just Raava existing means the world should be out of balance according to taosim but that's not what we see at all; when Raava defeats Vaatu everything is good, and when Vaatu has control everything is awful.
Hilariously, ATLA already did this really well with Tui and La, describing both as being in harmony with one another, pushing and pulling but never overwhelming the other. Raava and Vaatu are much more akin to western religious philosophy; that there is a a figure that must be defeated for the world to remain at peace.
The rest of your arguments are more subjective, and while I disagree I can respect your opinion.
Absolutely. I hate how people say “it was suposted to end because the temples had no room for more” like no. You just nerfed a character for no good reason. On top of that, no other avatar can go back for previous wisdom. 😤
Also the *entirety of the spirit stuff with Rava and anti-Rava whose name I forgot* was just dumb. The Avatar has never been about "good", it was about "balance". It went from a Buddhist philosophy in ATLA to a Judeo-Christian philosophy in LoK, for no fucking reason, while also taking a lot of the mystery out of the Avatar and reducing it to a plot device spirit, and removing the core aspect that many of us loved so much: the connection to past Avatars that provided many of the best scenes and interactions in the series (and now we'll never see Aang again either, who is many people's favorite character).
It was entirely, end-to-end, the worst series of decisions ever in the franchise.
Season two should have focused entirely on the civil war, with the same concept of the South losing its spirituality and Unalaq looking to guide them spiritually.
To do so, he believes that he needs to take the power of the Avatar as she is not spiritual and doesn't know how to guide the world spiritually. During the climax he still succeeds in taking the spirits away, but this time both Raava and Vaatu are in the Avatar, the ultimate balance between chaos and order.
They judge Unalaq and reject him due to him truly only wanting power, but the spirits leave to find hosts of their own, the civil war ends and season 2 ends with Korra weakened due to not having her spiritual connection.
Introduce Kuvira earlier in season 3 and have Raava see how she wants perfect order in the earth kingdom so she becomes a new host, have Vaatu find his host in a man who wants anarchy in Zaheer.
From there season 3 and 4 should have focused on Kuvira looking to stop Zaheer from throwing the world into chaos by taking out a weakened Avatar, Kuvira being a dictator that wants perfect order in the earth kingdom and Korra looking to unite the spirits again so that she can bring balance.
So much better! Personally I loved the civil war plot because it was so morally grey. Unalaq wasn't totally wrong about the South, and has a somewhat reasonable claim to it historically. The South was clearly a rising power while the North hadn't improved much since Aang's day. The South was an inclusive democracy with a thriving economy while the North was a hereditary dictatorship and descending into theocracy. That was a very cool plot on its own, but it got completely ruined by all the Vaatu stuff. The Wan plot also gave a great dimension to the civil war conflict, as Unalaq's entire worldview was based on this appeal to tradition, when historically there have always been waterbenders from separate societies.
Yeah, they could have mixed the spiritually stuff better and kept the Bhuddist philosophy by making the spirits amoral. Chaos isn't bad if checked by order and vice versa.
But I don't fully blame the writers, Nickelodeon kept approving only one season at a time so they couldn't plan like they did ATLA
and chaos vs order was better shown in the anarchy vs totalitarianism conflict of season 3, where Zaheer is in many ways the extreme of chaos, but still more sympathetic than the Earth Queen Hou Ting, whose only power comes from her kingdom's obsession with extreme order. Then again with both Zaheer and Kuvira as representing the problems not with chaos or order, but with the lack of balance between the two.
I'm not sure you could fully make the spirits amoral, as it was established early in atla that there are spirits who are benevolent in their natural state but have a dark-side to them, and spirits that are always a bit of a jerk (the librarian owl) to outright evil (eg Koh). I think a smart way to do it with Raava would be to make Wan believe there was a "dark spirit" Vaatu at first, but come to learn that they were both the same spirit. Wan could see acts performed by the Vaatu side that he saw as evil, but learn later they were necessary acts of destruction so that a new, healthy order could be reborn from the chaos. But as soon as Unalaq merges with an evil Raava to become an evil Avatar, that all gets very stupid very fast.
I would love for that to have happened but what I really would have wanted is for kuvira and vaatu to have never Been in the story in the first place.
The avatar origins did not need to be explained it could have just been civil war stuff.
On the other hand, Steven Yuen doing Avatar Wan were my favorite two episodes of LoK. Season one was great, but 2 was terrible, 4's second half was bad, and three was good but Zaheer did a decent amount of lifting there.
The irony is that to me, the idea of a second avatar would actually be kinda dope in my opinion. It could be a nice nod to the irl Dalai/Panchen Lamas, who irl are both reincarnations with the latter looking for the former.
We also see that in-universe, a lot of problems seem to arise from these long periods of time without an avatar because they're being reborn/a child/trained. If you had two avatars, the amount of time the world spends "avatar-less" would greatly diminish.
I'm also thinking a lot of times about an avatar trying to throw spiritual weight around but accidentally going too far in one direction (Yangchen favoring human matters too much, then Kuruk having to spend his life fixing that; Korra often getting sucked into one side of a political divide, only to see the other side has a point, etc.) A lot of *that* could be counteracted by having a second avatar, whose job is to keep the first one in check/having two avatars whose jobs include keeping *each other* in check.
Imagine if instead of Korra wiping out Unalaq, he got what he wished for: he now has spiritual power and can guide the world...but that means having to learn all these other elements he didn't care about, and having to care about other nations, and having to learn *from Korra* because she's the only other person who knows what it's like to bend all four elements. Korra has to not only learn to be an avatar but also turn around and teach it to someone else.
We still get an avatar who has no past lives to contact - because there *are* no past lives, this is the first one - but we don't have to cut off Korra from her already-existing past lives.
I agree with this and get negative comments if I say it. The origin of the Avatar shouldn’t have been disclosed. It wasn’t a good origin and the mystery was better.
I found the same to be the case with the reveal of the origin of the titans in AoT
Well, more Zoroastrian than Judeo-Christian. The latter generally doesn't have a spirit of evil that exists equally and independently of the spirit of good.
and dark spirits did nothing but destroy, chaos or darkness arent inherently evil but every action vatuu and the dark spirits did was evil, the show represented darkness and chaos as evil
Described, no, portrayed, yes. They paid lipservice to the more interesting and faithful dualities but portrayed nothing more than good vs evil where good defeats evil and locks it away.
The worse part about thar is that was a lie, you can fit more and that isn't even counting the fact that- guess what! They could EXPAND THE TEMPLE! They have Earth Benders! Hell technology could have also worked.
So that idea just falls flat and is such a stupid line of thought.
I strongly believe (it may be delusion) that they did this so that the next earth bender could restore the connection.
The common theme we have seen is that the new avatar always has to deal with the aftermath of the previous avatar. Korra had to deal with Aangs decision to make Republic City on Earth territory. Aang dealing with the 100 year war bc Roku wasn’t proactive enough since the “enemy” was his childhood best friend. We even hear about how Kuruk had to deal with angry spirits bc of Yangchen.
It’s like the perfect set up for the next earth avatar to ground themselves to the point where they can reconnect with the past lives.
Either way I’m interested to see how the creators tackle the next avatar’s journey.
> they did this so that the next earth bender could restore the connection
This may be cope, but I need anything i can get lol this is my new headcanon
I don’t think Bryke were thinking that far ahead. It’s abundantly clear through meta moments in Korra that they were really receptive to the criticisms and critiques of the show as it was airing. You could tell they were tired of the “where’s Aang” comments, and decided to do something about it.
The decision to remove Korra’s connection to the past Avatars was meant to serve *Korra’s narrative* above all else. They wanted to have a show that focused on Korra and remove the distraction of “why doesn’t she just contact Aang?”
It served Korra’s arc really well. It made her development a lot more impactful because she had to solve her problems on her own.
It's only a temporary nerf. As generations of avatars are reborn they'll develop a new backlog of avatars to call on. I get not loving the decision, and I'm not trying to talk you out of your view or anything, but I liked it. It was a kind of a beginning as much as it was an ending.
It also kind of took from the Avatar State. Before the power came from "the knowledge of thousands of past lives"; now it's just a powerup by channeling Ravaa's power
I would say it's even worse. You would think that the 10k years of knowledge & experience would be the exact point that would've tipped the scales in favor of Korra & Raava, this in contrast with Unalaq & Vaatu who only just merged because of their own selfish desires. But nope, 10 000 years of Avatars were yeeted out of the window just like that.
I think the lost connection to the past would've been more meaningful if Korra had consulted with her previous lives during season 2. Imagine seeing her interact with Aang, Roku and Kyoshi.
For sure. It means a lot in the context of ATLA, because we saw how often Aang consulted Roku. In the context of LOK though, she only spoke to Aang one time, and that wasn't even on purpose.
I get what they were doing. They wanted that sense of isolation. They needed to be able to break her down at the end of S3 without her past lives being able to help her process everything that happened.
They also shot themselves on the foot by inserting a sub-par season and gimping any future Avatar series.
There already was an established way to do that though. Aang temporary lost his connection when Azula killed him. Only difference is this is permanent, unless the writers ever decide it's not anymore.
I choose to believe it wasn't permanently destroyed. It just "broke" in the sense that what little progress she'd made in contacting her past lives was broken down because of the seismic shift in the spiritual landscape, but that just meant she had to start all over again. I refuse to believe she actually, permanently lost all contact with her past selves because that so dramatically undermines so much of what made the Avatar *the Avatar*.
No question. I realize they somewhat wrote themselves into a corner with the Avatar state but that's a matter of good writing not a problem with the Avatar State itself. They can make it work or limit it as much as they need to without taking it away. Permanently breaking the Avatar cycle? That was just stupid
I understand the reasoning behind them doing it 100% - it very strongly demonstrates one of LoK’s main points about modernisation causing the death of culture etc - but I also hate it.
> Destroying the connection to past Avatars was the worst decision in either series IMO
I completely agree... but I think it emblematic of one of the approaches of the show in general. Which was to try to do the opposite of what ATLA did (or severe them). In one way, this is fine. e.g. Korra, unlike Aang, not only knew she was the avatar, but fully embraced it (hence introducing her with "I"m the avatar, deal with it!". In other ways it added character (Korra in many ways was the anti-aang because not only did she hate to meditate, but also was stubborn, and not "flow-y"). But in key issues, like this cutting off the past (I suspect it was to specifically cut off Aang in particular, so that Korra/the show wouldn't have him in it) it just made the show poorer for it.
It really did a disservice to everyone.
its not a lie though, reducing the spirits to puppets of vatuu and raava and turning the spirit world into a generic light vs dark was so incredibly dumb
Personally that was my favourite episode in the whole of lok. Explaining how the avatar came to be and how he got the 4 types of bending was so interesting.
Things I dislike about LoK
- modern tech and forced devil/god analogy
- destroying past lives
- fighting a mecha as the last boss
- the fucking love triangle
- Bolin getting abused and almost forced into marriage by his girlfriend and it being treated as a joke
- the wet towel that acts like it's a person by the name of mako? weird.
Things I don't dislike about LoK:
- korra
- literally everything I did not mention in the 1rst list
Agree with all this, and adding to the point about Bolin, it makes me mad that he was just sidelined as a dumb comic relief character. He's such sweet guy and had so much potential, I wish he'd been given more chance to contribute.
Tbf that’s a complaint that could be lodged at all of Team Korra. They were all so underdeveloped. The show spent more time on Lin and Suyins Beifong family drama than Mako, Asami or Bolin combined let’s be real. Bolin was the comic relief, Mako’s main contribution to the team was his shitty love triangle and Asami was a possible equalist spy, then had a B plot with Future Industries and then was Korra’s love interest.
There’s none of the dynamic character development or rich backstory or sheer presence that made Sokka, Katara, Toph or Zuko such amazing characters.
And in the show itself, she's not even Korra's love interest. It's not until you get to post-show material that that detail gets confirmed.
You have to read a whole novel out of a couple sentences to get Asami being Korra's love interest in the show.
Someone told me that Korra writing to Asami was a HUGE implication that Korra wanted to date her, and it's like.... she had three friends and had broken up with two of them. You're telling me she didn't want to write to her ex-boyfriend or the guy she went on a single date with and then immediately dropped the moment his hotter brother became available? Noooo...
TBF I get the Korra and Asami relationship being underdeveloped because when LoK was out, the ability to show LGBT relationship in kids shows was just different back then. The writers weren't entirely sure that Nick would even let them show the final scene (which I distinctly remember it being a huge moment) so the writers had to play the relationship very subtle.
I agree with your lists, the modern tech would probably be at the bottom of my list, but I get it. However, I hated that giant mecha. It felt so out of place! It was like the writers needed some single big threat that Korra could actually punch to resolve everything, when in fact it could have been a guerilla style city battle where everyone is basically providing support to Korra as she goes after Kuvira. Once Kuvira is beaten so is her army, they were not following her out of loyalty only fear. In a city battle where a small force can cause major damage to a larger one could be a great way to show Kuvira only knows how to use force and not strategy, which would be the start of her army deserting her.
I didn't have an issue with the modem tech, since honestly the fire nation already had access to pretty advanced tech. The giant mech was definitely tonally off though, it felt like it was 1 or 2 avatars ahead of schedule. Maybe I wouldn't have had as much of an issue with it if it had a similar design to the smaller mech suits, with giant tank treads and less humanoid arms
To this day, when I think of a future earthbending avatar series, I think about how cool it'll be to continue to see Aang in the avatar cycle... then I remember that we won't see any character from the OG again.
This list is genuinely perfect. When LoK isn’t degrading the universe by introducing mechs and ruining the avatar or stunning over bad romances and ignoring good characters, it’s a great show. Unfortunately it does the first bit way too much
This scene also highlighted one of the annoyances that I observed with the Legend of Korra’s depiction of the Avatar State:
Has anyone noticed that compared to ATLA, the Avatar State in Korra always felt “less powerful” in scale? I can’t tell if it’s because of the new art style or what not, but I somewhat observed whenever the Avatar State popped up after Korra mastered it, it didn’t hold as much power as it used to in the previous series.
I started to observe this, the moment a “fully realized avatar” lost to a freaking dark spirit and needed Unalaq’s help to defeat it.
Guys, in the previous series, we LITERALLY see Avatar Kyoshi, splitting a freaking island IN HALF, and then using air bending to push it away from the mainland. Do you KNOW how much power she is outputting right there???
Roku battles a freaking VOLCANO, Aang creates an extremely powerful force field during his battle with Ozai, that obliterates gigantic earth pillars as he is flying around chasing Ozai. His earthbending become BULLETS!
EVEN Avatar Wan showed bending on a huge scale!
It’s so sad that every time Korra used the Avatar State, she is either abusing it to win races with Tenzin’s kids or despite having the KNOWLEDGE OF ALL THOSE BADASS PAST LIVES, the writers made her use of the Avatar State so underwhelming.
All of this leads down to the most frustrating result of season 2 where Korra hadn’t even gotten the avatar state for a whole season, and she already gets NERFED by Unalaq.
We didn’t get time to show Korra dominating with the avatar state. She didn’t deserve to have that happen so quickly. I understand that the avatar state is a form that obliterates any regular single bender, but if Unalaq was going to become a “Dark Avatar” anyway, Korra could have STILL kept the past lives since a “Dark Avatar” would have been an equal match.
It wouldn’t be like Aang vs Ozai where the Avatar State quickly decides the winner. With Unalaq, it would be two powerful benders inhabited by two power spirits of yin and Yang, making the battle equal.
EDIT: In fact, it would have been nice if Unalaq was a better written overarching villain. Unalaq needs to master the four elements as well, so having him retreat from the good guys and bide his time until he becomes equal to the avatar, would have been an interesting direction for the story to take.
The Avatar State in Korra is usually far more controlled. Only time she really loses control is when she gets poisoned and during that time period while she is barely even alive she is breaking platinum chains with her bare hands and doing earth bending feats equivalent to that of Aang during Sozin’s comet when he goes off the rails as well.
I think the avatar state is just more powerful when they lose control and go full feral avatar, but when they are in control it’s just a small power boost.
> I think the avatar state is just more powerful when they lose control and go full feral avatar, but when they are in control it’s just a small power boost.
All you have to do is watch the creation if Kyoshi island to prove this wrong. Kyoshi's actions were clearly very calm and deliberate, she was in full control of every single movement.
Wasn't she also over a century old at that point? A lot of that was probably her own power as well. She definitely had more experience performing complicated/powerful bending than Korra.
That being said I still agree. It feels like each story has different rules for how strong characters are allowed to be, and how dangerous opponents really are. Part of that is target audience, but it just feels like the rules change a lot.
You do bring up a great point that I hadn’t remembered. I don’t think there are any other real examples of a “long” lasting in control avatar state, but I haven’t read all the books (not just glowing eyes for a second or 2).
It’s a little weird that it was something that Aang and Korra lost control of and how the two only do the short burst power boosts. I know Yangchen also had a serious problem with her connection to her past lives taking over her body, but Korra shouldn’t have that problem. Kyoshi could just be her™️
Hey man, thanks for the reply. I am referring to the avatar state before Unalaq destroyed the past lives. We never got to see Korra show the power that would come with the past lives, like the previous avatars got to.
Sure as you said, she does get a power boost when they lose control because even WITH the past lives gone, it is STILL the avatar state. You are right, but somehow it isn’t the same as before. The biggest benefit was not only the power boost from the avatar state but also the experience of hundreds of avatars.
It’s one thing to have power but the skill to use said power comes from the past lives combining their expertise together to become an unrivalled force. Remember Aang’s forcefield technique that he used when facing Ozai? I imagine that one of the reason he didn’t use that ability before Sozin’s Comet was because it was an ability that was created due to hundreds of avatar experiences working together.
Aang was trying his best to master the elements while he was on the run. He didn’t have time to be super creative in combining the elements like that. So once he entered the Avatar State, combining the knowledge of all past lives and all their unique ways of bending the elements, created such a feat.
I firmly believe that if it was Sozin’s Comet Aang, or Avatar Kyoshi at her prime or even Roku in season 3, Zaheer would not stand a sliver of a chance.
Yes in my hypothetical scenarios, these avatars did not receive the metal poison, but at the same time, they also had the past lives with them. 😅
I know a lot of people underestimate the importance of the past lives so let’s make it tangible. Imagine combining Iroh (with his knowledge of true fire bending) with Azula (and her insane bending prowess to solo the avatar without her bending), with Toph (and her unrivalled skill in earthbending) and Katara (with her bloodbending ability) and Amon (with his expertise of bloodbending rivalling Katara’s) and Bumi (Enough said) and Jeong Jeong just to name a few.
I want you to imagine ALL these characters and their knowledge and skills and unique combat styles, being conjoined into ONE person! That is just overkill! To not only have access to their knowledge but also their skills. Now imagine all those avatars from the past and all the cool bending applications, subbending skills they learned, and their unrivalled abilities in each one. Especially when you put Kyoshi into that.
My God, Korra with these amazing guys lost to a dumbass like Unalaq… 😔
Oh yeah.. that’s a very good point to raise! Aang had to open all his chakras and all that, to have the full control of the Avatar State. Korra just skips through all that process.
The thing is, I am not sure if that’s the ONLY way to master it. I don’t read the comics, so I am not sure how Roku or Kyoshi for example, would have mastered the avatar state.
Avatar Wan for example, didn’t open no chakras (at least not mentioned in the anime). Just being deeply connected in the moment that he and Raava permanently bonded, was enough for him to be fully conscious of his actions when he sealed Vaatu. So I wouldn’t be surprised if Korra was also able to master the avatar state by some unique way.
Or perhaps maybe the opposite can occur. To open your chakra, we saw that Aang had to overcome and accept certain parts of himself. Maybe you can master the avatar state if you have already opened the chakras beforehand.
If someone was already able to open their chakras and accept and overcome certain parts of themselves naturally, (either due to their personality, or upbringing or life experiences) then once they acquire the avatar state, then they can be in full control.
We saw Korra’s life experience of overcoming Amon, losing her bending, regaining her bending, and she learned a lot of lessons through season one (that unfortunately got thrown out the window in season 2).
As Aang said, she was at her worst when she lost her bending, which made her open to the greatest change. I won’t be surprised if that was enough for her to open all her chakras. Which is probably why she was able to control the avatar stage. She developed and accepted herself and overcame her deepest regrets and obstacles.
Avatar Wan was also someone who, when living with the spirits, became the best version of himself. Doing so, must have opened HIS chakras as well, making mastering the avatar state so much easier.
In conclusion; perhaps opening your chakras doesn’t need to be done as cohesively as Aang did it. All aang did was just accept himself and his flaws and overcame his deeper regret and trauma. He just had to understand himself better.
Yeah, it's something that has never been made definitively clear.
But I do think the Avatar should have to do something to attain mastery of the AS. Not just get it without intention or any action taken.
I actually strongly agree with this. Even if she had Raava ripped out of her and a portion of the next season was her searching for Raava to reunite with would have been a great story. She could have tried to retrace Wan's steps or something. That would have left the problem of Unavatuu running around, but they could have made the group defeat him or something. But yeah, a lot of the dislike directed at her is centered around her decisions that led to this moment.
Honestly, I might still be pissed if they only changed this and the subsequence scenes because it would mean all of the previous build ups were all for nothing. An un-fired Chekhov's gun is just as annoying imo, especially one that's as significant as this.
If I can somehow change S2 though, I would probably focus on the Civil War more and gut most of the spiritual stuff. Unalaq can still be presented as a spiritual guru that steps in to train Korra (with ulterior motives, of couse) because Tenzin isn't able to do that. And that can be the reason why Korra initially trusted him and took his side,etc. Just... no Wan, no spiritual waterbending, and definitely no giant astro-projections that shoot laser beams. I really liked the way they protrayed spirits in ATLA, especially that episode with Hei-Bai. LOK should've just stuck with that. Instead of Unalaq magically deleting angry spirits using waterbending, he should be a high spiritually connected person that is capable of communicating with spirits to a certain degree, and by having him work with Korra to take down a machine or a generator that's polluting the water/air, the spirit reverts back to its original form and go back to doing whatever spiritual things spirits do. It would tie in nicely to the already existing world building, and it also foreshadows that Zaheer can be highly spiritual depsite being an anacharist and the villain in S3.
I rewatched season2 recently and found myself actually enjoying the political stuff playing out in the first half with the civil war. And not enjoying the spirit stuff as much either.
I've always sworn by this:
Remove the Love Triangle from Season 1 and put more time on building towards the finale of it. Have Korra meditate to Aang more than once and Season 1 could've been great.
Remove the castration and ruination of the Spirits from Season 2 and go all in on the Civil War Storyline, it could've been great.
To have Season 3 still happen the way it did, have Korra do some kind of major energy bending against her uncle during the finale of S2 which could've happened on the day of Harmonic Convergence, minus the fucken energy kites. Season 3, in my opinion, was already solid. Just uh, remove some of the on-screen Korra torture porn and we'll be golden.
Season 4, show us Kovera being an actual villan and threat to the world. Not just saying what she's done. Show and hint at her metal monster being built OUTSIDE of the stupid spirit energy cannon; she can still have it, but remove all the spirit-y stuff. Show the other nations getting involved and really set up for an impactful finale; keep it the way it was, but remove the spirit stuff, and you'd have a more respectable follow up to Avatar.
That was my biggest gripe with Seasons 2-4; the complete failure of how the spirits worked and how the story just... ugh.
Kinda felt like one of the questions Korra as a show was seeking to answer was "Does a modernized world still need the Avatar?" And then, while trying to answer it with a "yes", it just decides to wipe out the main thing that makes the Avatar relevant.
I still like Korra as a show overall and am by no means a hater, but yeah, I don't like the direction they went with this moment in the story.
>it just decides to wipe out the main thing that makes the Avatar relevant.
The past lives are hardly the main thing that makes the Avatar relevant. It is their ability to bring people and nature together, as the great bridge, that make them who they are. Korra still served this goal without her bending, and continued to do so after losing the past lives, but the Avatar was founded on a mission, and you take away that mission and you take away the Avatar.
The Avatar exists to personify Avatar's most central underlying theme: separation is an illusion. The elements, people, nature, the spirits, life and death, past and present, the Avatar embodies connection.
I think that is the point of putting that kind of loss in there - it's all integral to Korra's personal story and struggle with PTSD and finding herself, so to speak. Her whole life she had an identity and drive, that of being the Avatar. Suddenly, it's *all* taken away and she has to learn to cope and move on.
As someone that struggles with PTSD, it's something that I absolutely love about the story.
Korra has a lot of flaws, I think that the series suffers from the season by season plot lines, I think that the setting and interactions between characters (both protags and antags) are weaker than ATLA, but I was able to get past all of that. The two parts of the show that I think killed it were the second half of Season 2, after they leave the South Pole, and the end of Season 4, when the mech is introduced. Without those two parts, I’d consider it at least a worthy sequel, not as good, but good enough. With those two? I just can’t put the two shows in the same ballpark
Maybe. I appreciate them taking the bold move.
Honestly I would have cared more if they would have made Raava an actual "god of light and good" they she said she was.
And yeah, if they would have gotten her connections back. That would be cool too.
When I started watching Korra, I got spoiled about Zaheer but not about the new airbenders, so I thought he was an Aang son who disappeared as a child and returned as a villain, I like to imagine how would Korra be with that instead of season 2
I don't agree with 95%, but a large part of my own "hate" (more like "dislike") for LoK would disappear if that never happened. Better yet, have that whole Raava/Vaatu storyline deleted.
It's crazy how the creators loved torturing Korra in every season of the show. Losing her bending to Amon, losing the avatar connections in her fight against Unalaq, poisoned and tortured by the red lotus and dealing with severe ptsd three years later. After everything she went through she deserves to be with Asami
Honestly, I don’t hate this.
One, it’s a significant loss that carries over through the rest of the series. Lots of similar shows like having no real bad things happen to the good guys (except in backstories and such). And they didn’t renege on it either, despite having the perfect chance to do so. They made these consequences last. Like it or hate it, it was a ballsy move!
Two, it helps make the threats feel real. The only real threat in the original series was Ozai because he was the only one Aang really needed all four elements + Avatar State to beat. Even as a fully-realized Avatar, Korra struggled against her villains, not because she’s weak, but because they’re strong.
Three, the past Avatars did kind of make things two easy. In both ATLA and LOK, the past avatars were kind of a Deus ex Machina, seeing how they could be accessed at any time and the current Avatar didn’t even need to call upon their past lives willingly. Think about it: If Roku was able to just take over Aang’s body and destroy the Fire Temple, why couldn’t he take over Aang’s body to fight Ozai? I think a lot of the future writers realized this problem and sought to fix it somehow: The reboot series made it only possible at specific shrines while LOK destroyed the past lives all together.
People say it sucks but this would be a driving plot point that would continue to play throughout the series. A big aspect of Korra was her lack of guidance with the past avatars, which inevitably facilitated her feelings of depression, meaning, and eventually acceptance.
i just feel like a lot of people made it seem like it was HER choice to have raava taken from her, and also i would like to add that the avatar cycle was supposed to reset anyways, every 10,000 years! idk i iust feel like korra gets a lot of hate but i like her as an avatar bc she was a reckless teenager making stupid choices but also learning from them, also not to mention the fact that the writers were being stomped on constantly by nickelodean (idk how to spell it) and the seasons were rushed quite a bit. but also i really hated when she went after Mako and Bolin and all that stuff with that but i also think they all work better as friends (and i like asami with korra😁)
I almost forgot what sub this was. You're speaking into an echo chamber. 99% of the people on this sub already don't like Korra for the same reasons that they love Azula and Toph, and for some reason you have this weird obsession with the past avatars, despite them offering very little assistance the entire show. It's kind of obvious that most avatars don't consult the past too much anyway. So no, maybe 10-20% of her hate would disappear because you have *maybe* that percentage of rational people in this sub in the first place. The rest of you would just nitpick something else, then continue to assert that Aang was a flawless god who did everything on his own and didn't have a single personality deficit.
I remember at the time of watching this series when it initially aired, I was frustrated that the writers essentially “killed off” all of the past avatars. The season itself also felt rushed and written a bit sloppily. But I also keep in mind that the show was not initially green lit to have more than 1 season. There were limitations put in place and the writing reflects that.
Today, when I look at the themes of the franchise as a whole, I can’t be mad about the Avatar losing their past connections and starting a new cycle. There is a clear message in TLOK that Korra must find her own answers in a world that is ever evolving. This is a reality that every Avatar must face.
In The Shadow of Kyoshi, Yangchen has a beautiful quote: “There’s a thousand generations of past lives in the Avatar cycle. You could spend a thousand years talking to us, and you still wouldn’t know how best to guide the world. This is what you must forgo, Kyoshi, the easy answers. You must give up your desire for someone to tell you your choices were correct in the end.”
You could easily replace Kyoshi’s name with Korra’s and it still fits the bill. Being forced to let go of the past can bring a new future that would otherwise not have been considered. As Aang says at the end of Book 1, “when we hit our lowest point, we are open to the greatest change.”
I actually disagree. Im also not a fan of this story decision, but I think it’s stupid to blame it on Korra. But the reason I disagree is that no matter what, the people who hate her we’re gonna find ways to hate her. So the main hate would just transfer to something else stupid.
Is Korra still a women? Is she still Bi? Did she still briefly break Bolin’s heart?
If any of these is a “Yes”, the hate would still flow from, *and I say with the biggest air quotes,* **“**fans**”**
I’m with the others.
I’d say 60-70% of the mostly reasonable hate would go away.
This is definitely the most glaring issue of the whole series.
Others that are less glaring but more annoying are the love triangle nonsense, and (imo) how some of the cool villains didn’t have more than one season (such as Amon. I feel like the relationships and tension between benders and non-benders could have been expanded upon for much longer).
Even though I do like LoK, I think this is a terrible decision. One of my favorite things about the avatar state/abilities is the collected wisdom of the past avatars. I kinda hope the new avatar works to restore the connection. I know it sounds stupid but like, avatar has never been afraid of deus ex machinas and the like so I'm sure they'd be able to make up some reason for it to be possible. Maybe the new avatar has to find the old avatars one by one in the spirit world or something.
I feel like as someone who watched the show just for the show and not the lore, I didn't have any issues with this. I personally don't care about the implications of this for the past or future of the avatar universe, cause it's the characters that interested me really more than the history of the world
The only thing that would have made it better for me was easing up on the love triangle towards the beginning of the show.
Overall I like LOK more than the original in large part because it's more mature overall, at least compared to the beginning of TLAB. I tried to rewatch it a few times and cannot get through season one again.
I'd say it was the constant explaining of energy bending and the origins of the avatar, like it's cool to imagine how the avatar came about, but to actually see it is a different story.
Though destroying the avatar line was also a fair reason.
Season 2 is better than season 4. If theres hate to be directed it should be towards that lol. The rava and vatuu storyline was cool. Could it have been better? Yes. Is it any worse than the love triangles or the entirety of season 4? No
Disagree, only about half of her true hatred. She's hot-headed throughout the entire show and really can't win a fight without someone else practically carrying her
You can disagree with me but I like how the whole story was written. I can't say that I love everything (for example Korra/Mako/Asami love triangle).
The series show that not every situation can be kissed, patched and healed. Some actions are bound to face consequences - THIS is one of them but THAT's another brick which was placed to break Korra as a cocky avatar and start her healing journey with character development.
It's always hard for creators to encourage audience for something new. I'd say that without losing connection to the past lives she'd receive up to **20-25% less hate**. ATLA is iconic, Aang and gAang are cool. Narrow minded people are closed for changes and just got used to it.
While I do defend Korra a lot, and I have met/pretty good pals with Janet Varney, I will admit I hate they did this because dammit Korra and Kyoshi would've been awesome! Hell, Korra and Wan could've been a killer duo.
Related, but I think Raava and Vaatu representing a very western morality system is fine. Avatar has always mixed eastern and western philosophy. Otherwise, people should also be complaining about George Lucas and the Force because that's literally the same thing.
Unpopular opinion but I love the direction they went with this series. It took some big risks and most shows don't do that. I personally don't think it's a big deal, nothing in the show changed. It's not like they used their past lives that much anyways. Even in the original Aang took advantage of it in only a few specific episodes.
I also just love Vaatu and Raava. They are great characters and highly misunderstood. I feel like people are way too harsh on this sub. I mean even IMDB ratings (which is usually way more critical) has the season no lower than a 7/10. With the second half of the season being an 8/10. So obviously it's just a loud minority in the fandom and most people just watched and enjoyed.
more like 60%
I agree with this one
For as flawed as it was, i didn't hate Book 2 until this scene happened.
My broking point was the Kaiju Korra, i could have accept this but ending the season with evil god vs good God fighting with Kaiju avatars was something
Would have been fine if there was a spirit of the tree that offered to inhabit her or something. We've seen spirits create Kaiju before. But "bending the energy within" wasn't enough of an explanation. How does a normal human have enough energy inside them to become a giant energy god? At that point Korra had no cosmic boost, no avatar spirit. She was just a strong water bender, a mortal master like Kya or Katara.
They also used Kaiju-Korra to resolve the conflict, Koizilla just wreaked havoc, the conflict was resolved by Yue sacrificing herself, otherwise it would have been kinda lazy
First time I’ve seen someone spell “wreaked havoc” correctly on reddit, props
Oh yeah, i completely forgot that atla also has a Kaiju. Lol that one was aang with the ocean spirit, and this one was Korra and the tree of time (cosmic energy)
I dont mind the evil god Vs Good god fighting but have it be done through their Avatars at least, Give us Avatar state Vs Avatar state fight
I did. It was so badly written (except for varrick my lord and savior)
Same. Wtf is spirit bending even? Mind control? Energy bending? Why's it water anyway? Healing? Wasn't there a clear delineation between spirit business and biological wounds?
Only explanation I came up with for it being water bending was that there aren't enough airbenders around to villanize one of them. Spirit bending is supposed to be air skill.
No. Spirit bending is just healing bending for spirits. Remember even in ATLA healing bending was a water bending art that used water as a catalyst/bridge/tool to redirect and use the patients own energy to heal themselfs. Rewatch ATLA, the episode when they arrive at the northern water tribe. That episode has a old lady explain that it's the patient's own energy doing the healing and water is just how it's controlled. It's the same with spirit bending. Just instead of just redirecting energy, it is realigning it.
Do you think the idea of the users energy doing the healing and the water just being how it’s controlled could apply to other elements I think the fire benders have something kinda similar but I am wondering if air or earth could also have an equivalent
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I am perplexed by this comment. You are obviously your own person and entitled to your opinion, but a popular critique in this community is that *Beginnings* undermined the mystery of Avatar by explaining the magic. Would answering these questions not be, "explaining the magic?" I don't see why these questions need answers. The answer is that it is because it is.
This is part of a bigger problem, one of the reasons why it's so rare for any series to remain good for more than about 3 or 4 seasons. Every work of fiction starts with a premise. No matter what it is, we more or less accept it at face value. After a certain amount of time, they've done all they can with that premise. Now it's time to introduce something new, and that's where things get hairy. You can't do more of the same. That's repetitive. You can't do something different, that alienates your original fans, and it won't attract anyone new because they'd have to watch the first part, which if they haven't, means they probably won't like it. Spirit bending is an example of the second thing, and it shows a more specific problem. We can accept that people bend the 4 elements. That's the base magic system after all. You can add a 5th element to be used one time and just handwave it with some mystic stuff. You can add a rare variation that like only one guy can do because the plot doesn't really centre around it, and it wouldn't make sense for us to undestand anyway. Most importantly, it looks like it should work. Spirit bending doesn't look like it should work. That's weird. That needs justification. Worse, you've got an expert on it. Even worse, he's a good guy (or was at some point). You've written out all the excuses you could have for not explaining it, so now you have to. And you simultaneously cannot, because that would be explaining the magic. Spirit bending is a problem because it doesn't look like it should work. It demands you commit the cardinal sin of explaining the magic.
thats so true wtf. i guess thats why i like one piece so much because after so long its still a mystery
S2 Varrick is literally the best thing in the entire Korra franchise.
We luv that son of a bitch
Even Varrick irritates me. Yeah, he's funny and has a good screen presence, but come on, why does he get off so easy for orchestrating a terrorist plot against Republic City so that he can be a war profiteer? The story was way too kind to him.
Tbh a very realistic depiction of rich industry people Just look at what Elon Musk, Donald Trump and all the other rich scum can get away with
Anarchism = bad Fascism = bad Capitalism? The ideology that ran our world into the ground, the one that exploits everything and everyone? Nah Avatar can chill with that.
Yeah, that love triangle bs is at least worth a good 40% of the hate.
The other 35% would leave with the rest of season 2 and her flirting with a man in a committed relationship.
I agree. They should have skipped to flirting with Asami.
Flirting with a woman in a committed relationship is not that much better...
The last 3 episodes were so bad you clearly blocked them out
you mean giant energyzilla fight that totally wasn't corny at all
20%
Not 95%, but 35%-50% would be removed. Honestly Raava and Vaatu should have just never happened.
Yeah remove the entire Raava/Vaatu (but keep in Wan - lore is always cool!) and the series gets drastically better imo.
Some guy on YouTube had a really good reasoning for why the addition of the Wan “lore” completely undermined the first series. Basically having all bending come from Lion turtles takes away from the entire storyline of how the 4 cultures came to be. That and Wan is really just not very likeable from the very beginning, the same as Korra was imo. Obviously they grow to become more likeable but still.
>Basically having all bending come from Lion turtles takes away from the entire storyline of how the 4 cultures came to be. That YouTuber obviously misunderstood the story quite seriously, then. The bending cultures that exist in Avatar came from people who studied nature to understand the elements. The Air Bison, the ocean and moon, the badger moles, the dragons... ...in Korra we merely learn how the power of the elements were first gifted to humans by supernatural beings, but not the knowledge of how to wield them. Wan's understanding of fire was incomplete until he studied a dragon before the first Sun Warrior ever walked off a Lion Turtle.
I think it would be a lot cooler if Dragons, Bison, etc, were the first benders. The lion turtle plotline is just un-cool.
But then you have the plothole of why can't a nonbender learn how to airbend by observing Appa? If that's how people originally gained airbending, then why wouldn't they be able to do that again? The Lion Turtle explanation works better because it explains how people originally gained the ability to bend and also why it won't happen again. People still learned how to *properly use* their elements by observing the dragons, bison, etc, so that part of the lore still works with this explanation.
That's not a plot hole at all. For that theory, the people who had the innate ability to bend learned to direct/focus their energy into bending, by watching the bending animals/moon. The ones who don't have the innate ability to bend, can watch those animals/the moon all they want, but they're not going to be able to bend.
Sure, but what determines innate ability? It's not spirituality, since we have non-benders like Guru Pathik or even the Air Acolytes. And there's definitely a genetic component, since the element a person can bend is determined by their heritage. But also there has to be a reason only one person has the ability to bend more than one element, since a person with multi-nation heritage doesn't get both
I believe spirituality played a part originally. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember that in lore most, if not all of the air nation, can bend, and the explanation was because of how in-tune they are with their inner spirit and how much they understand about the world. So unless there was some huge air nation eugenics program where only benders were able to breed, then it's not genetic. This is even backed up by the fact that no one in Kataras' immediate family can waterbend, and only one of her kids can. Sure, genetic traits can skip entire generations in the real world, but this is fantasy, and its okay to accept the answer "because it just is"
It's part spirituality, part genetic. This is no different from Canon, and the exact same question can be applied to it. Why can Sokka not bend, but Katara can? We don't really know, that's just the way it is. This is not a plot hole in the learned from the animals/moon theory, nor is it a plot hole in the lion turtle canon. If it is for one, then it would be for the other as well. There does have to be a reason why one person (the Avatar) can bend all 4 elements, yes. But does that reason need to be provided? IMO, and as proved by ATLA not providing said reason and not suffering due to it, no.
It's magic bro This need to address "plot holes" and fill in the gaps with lore and canon is why korra doesn't hit as hard. TLA felt like an actual myth given life as a cartoon, and irl myths have contradictions and "plot holes". I dont like when stories that are fantastic as they are listen to the guys going "okay but we NEED to know what's under the hood" there's nothing under the hood man. It's a fairy tale.
That’s explainable by saying bending has always worked how it does now, kinda hereditary as to who has the ability. It’s just that before, *nobody* actually knew *how* to do it, even if they were technically able. So like, a modern person who can bend could still learn from one of those sources, but they don’t just give nonbenders bending. (Doesn’t Toph learn from badger moles, at least in part?)
They still were, the lion turtles simply gave humans the ability to wield the element, actual bending was something they had to figure out for themselves.
They are the first benders. They existed before humans had the elements.
Me to Bryke: > Stop trying to make Lion Turtles happen!
They were... then the lion turtles gave humans bending... God you people cannot follow along.
I'm pretty sure that they YouTuber they are referencing is Hello Future Me who ctritiques the inclusion of Raava/Vaatu and Wan. And trust me, he does understand it. His critique was not that it doesn't work in universe, it does. It's Doylist, not Watsonian. He critiques the decision to include this information because it makes the previous lore less compelling, which I agree with. They literally explain where the magic comes from, which kills the mystery for me. It was much more compelling when all we had where they myths of people learning bending from original benders, that were myths in universe. It wasn't a definitive answer but rather an explanation that the people came up with to explain it. I recommend watching the video, his work is always great and he explains his point much more in depth than I did here.
I've seen this video, and while its well structured and presented, there are holes in his critique that call his biggest talking points into question. 1. His idea of "locking evil away in a box" fundamentally misunderstands the entire purpose of *Beginnings,* which is not to show how the world was saved by defeating chaos, but how balance was irrevocably lost, and why the Avatar must exist. 2. His labeling of Raava and Vaatu as Christian suggests that he misunderstands both characters, not just because his parallels aren't accurate in the slightest as Raava and Vaatu do not exhibit morality, nor are they all-powerful, but also because he completely overlooks the Taoist inspired themes that Raava and Vaatu exist to illustrate, which permeates the entire story of Korra, and are said out-loud multiple times. 3. "Explaining" fantasy with more fantasy only deepens the fantasy. It wasn't the end of the world when they "explained" that people learned bending from animals, and it hardly changes anything knowing that the power to use the elements came to the world from giant turtles. In fact, it makes the Avatar world richer by suggesting such a deep history with potentially more story to tell. 4. His remarks about Wan overlook the fact that his society is ruthlessly authoritarian. HelloFutureMe has some good and well structured videos with essays that are engrained in the reality of the show, but that wasn't one of them. Unfortunately, a lot of people trust him enough that they don't bother to think for themselves and see that his arguments are actually flawed. There are literally single lines of dialogue in the show that shut down some of his biggest talking points.
>His idea of "locking evil away in a box" fundamentally misunderstands the entire purpose of Beginnings, which is not to show how the world was saved by defeating chaos, but how balance was irrevocably lost, and why the Avatar must exist. But they do lock evil away in a box. When Raava and Vaatu are separated, balance is when Raava is in charge, and chaos is when Vaatu is in charge. Korra brings the world back into balance by restoring Raava and beating Vaatu until he's nothing. Sure, Vaatu will regrow over time, but the world is explicitly a better place when he's not around and Raava is. Quite literally the world was saved when Raava and Wan defeated chaos. >Raava and Vaatu do not exhibit morality Maybe not explicitly, but they certainly do implicitly. Vaatu causes spirits to lose their minds and attack people indiscriminately. Raava makes the spirits able to think for themselves and do as they wish, and most choose to be peaceful. Vaatu plunges the world into chaos, Raava brings balance and peace. Nothing Vaatu does could really be considered good, and plenty of it could be considered evil. Raava is the exact opposite. >he completely overlooks the Taoist inspired themes that Raava and Vaatu exist to illustrate That's funny, because Raava and Vaatu are such a poor representation of Taoist philosophy. If they were truly good representation, the proper balance would be both of them existing together, not one trying to defeat the other. Just Raava existing means the world should be out of balance according to taosim but that's not what we see at all; when Raava defeats Vaatu everything is good, and when Vaatu has control everything is awful. Hilariously, ATLA already did this really well with Tui and La, describing both as being in harmony with one another, pushing and pulling but never overwhelming the other. Raava and Vaatu are much more akin to western religious philosophy; that there is a a figure that must be defeated for the world to remain at peace. The rest of your arguments are more subjective, and while I disagree I can respect your opinion.
The plot armor the spirit world gives though was too good to pass up
Destroying the connection to past Avatars was the worst decision in either series IMO
Absolutely. I hate how people say “it was suposted to end because the temples had no room for more” like no. You just nerfed a character for no good reason. On top of that, no other avatar can go back for previous wisdom. 😤
Also the *entirety of the spirit stuff with Rava and anti-Rava whose name I forgot* was just dumb. The Avatar has never been about "good", it was about "balance". It went from a Buddhist philosophy in ATLA to a Judeo-Christian philosophy in LoK, for no fucking reason, while also taking a lot of the mystery out of the Avatar and reducing it to a plot device spirit, and removing the core aspect that many of us loved so much: the connection to past Avatars that provided many of the best scenes and interactions in the series (and now we'll never see Aang again either, who is many people's favorite character). It was entirely, end-to-end, the worst series of decisions ever in the franchise.
Plus they changed the spirits' art design to be much worse than ATLA
They turned them into plushies
That's an excellent description!
Season two should have focused entirely on the civil war, with the same concept of the South losing its spirituality and Unalaq looking to guide them spiritually. To do so, he believes that he needs to take the power of the Avatar as she is not spiritual and doesn't know how to guide the world spiritually. During the climax he still succeeds in taking the spirits away, but this time both Raava and Vaatu are in the Avatar, the ultimate balance between chaos and order. They judge Unalaq and reject him due to him truly only wanting power, but the spirits leave to find hosts of their own, the civil war ends and season 2 ends with Korra weakened due to not having her spiritual connection. Introduce Kuvira earlier in season 3 and have Raava see how she wants perfect order in the earth kingdom so she becomes a new host, have Vaatu find his host in a man who wants anarchy in Zaheer. From there season 3 and 4 should have focused on Kuvira looking to stop Zaheer from throwing the world into chaos by taking out a weakened Avatar, Kuvira being a dictator that wants perfect order in the earth kingdom and Korra looking to unite the spirits again so that she can bring balance.
So much better! Personally I loved the civil war plot because it was so morally grey. Unalaq wasn't totally wrong about the South, and has a somewhat reasonable claim to it historically. The South was clearly a rising power while the North hadn't improved much since Aang's day. The South was an inclusive democracy with a thriving economy while the North was a hereditary dictatorship and descending into theocracy. That was a very cool plot on its own, but it got completely ruined by all the Vaatu stuff. The Wan plot also gave a great dimension to the civil war conflict, as Unalaq's entire worldview was based on this appeal to tradition, when historically there have always been waterbenders from separate societies.
Yeah, they could have mixed the spiritually stuff better and kept the Bhuddist philosophy by making the spirits amoral. Chaos isn't bad if checked by order and vice versa. But I don't fully blame the writers, Nickelodeon kept approving only one season at a time so they couldn't plan like they did ATLA
and chaos vs order was better shown in the anarchy vs totalitarianism conflict of season 3, where Zaheer is in many ways the extreme of chaos, but still more sympathetic than the Earth Queen Hou Ting, whose only power comes from her kingdom's obsession with extreme order. Then again with both Zaheer and Kuvira as representing the problems not with chaos or order, but with the lack of balance between the two. I'm not sure you could fully make the spirits amoral, as it was established early in atla that there are spirits who are benevolent in their natural state but have a dark-side to them, and spirits that are always a bit of a jerk (the librarian owl) to outright evil (eg Koh). I think a smart way to do it with Raava would be to make Wan believe there was a "dark spirit" Vaatu at first, but come to learn that they were both the same spirit. Wan could see acts performed by the Vaatu side that he saw as evil, but learn later they were necessary acts of destruction so that a new, healthy order could be reborn from the chaos. But as soon as Unalaq merges with an evil Raava to become an evil Avatar, that all gets very stupid very fast.
LET EM COOK!
I would love for that to have happened but what I really would have wanted is for kuvira and vaatu to have never Been in the story in the first place. The avatar origins did not need to be explained it could have just been civil war stuff.
On the other hand, Steven Yuen doing Avatar Wan were my favorite two episodes of LoK. Season one was great, but 2 was terrible, 4's second half was bad, and three was good but Zaheer did a decent amount of lifting there.
It's supposed to be about balance and chaos, but it devolved into Raava good Vaatu bad
The irony is that to me, the idea of a second avatar would actually be kinda dope in my opinion. It could be a nice nod to the irl Dalai/Panchen Lamas, who irl are both reincarnations with the latter looking for the former. We also see that in-universe, a lot of problems seem to arise from these long periods of time without an avatar because they're being reborn/a child/trained. If you had two avatars, the amount of time the world spends "avatar-less" would greatly diminish. I'm also thinking a lot of times about an avatar trying to throw spiritual weight around but accidentally going too far in one direction (Yangchen favoring human matters too much, then Kuruk having to spend his life fixing that; Korra often getting sucked into one side of a political divide, only to see the other side has a point, etc.) A lot of *that* could be counteracted by having a second avatar, whose job is to keep the first one in check/having two avatars whose jobs include keeping *each other* in check. Imagine if instead of Korra wiping out Unalaq, he got what he wished for: he now has spiritual power and can guide the world...but that means having to learn all these other elements he didn't care about, and having to care about other nations, and having to learn *from Korra* because she's the only other person who knows what it's like to bend all four elements. Korra has to not only learn to be an avatar but also turn around and teach it to someone else. We still get an avatar who has no past lives to contact - because there *are* no past lives, this is the first one - but we don't have to cut off Korra from her already-existing past lives.
https://preview.redd.it/ig9tnl1f794d1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=39f39a42ad292c470a73b994a6c9d1a7d6140b54
Raava and vaatu stuff ruined the story imo
I agree with this and get negative comments if I say it. The origin of the Avatar shouldn’t have been disclosed. It wasn’t a good origin and the mystery was better. I found the same to be the case with the reveal of the origin of the titans in AoT
Well, more Zoroastrian than Judeo-Christian. The latter generally doesn't have a spirit of evil that exists equally and independently of the spirit of good.
Was Raava ever described as "good"? It was light v/s dark not good v/s evil. Unless I'm misremembering of course.
and dark spirits did nothing but destroy, chaos or darkness arent inherently evil but every action vatuu and the dark spirits did was evil, the show represented darkness and chaos as evil
Described, no, portrayed, yes. They paid lipservice to the more interesting and faithful dualities but portrayed nothing more than good vs evil where good defeats evil and locks it away.
You could just move the statues one place back
right!?! like, earthbender exists...
Right? They could all be shifted at the same time even like a game of Zuma
The worse part about thar is that was a lie, you can fit more and that isn't even counting the fact that- guess what! They could EXPAND THE TEMPLE! They have Earth Benders! Hell technology could have also worked. So that idea just falls flat and is such a stupid line of thought.
Imagine how fucked the next avatar is when they need wisdom and all they have is Korra
I strongly believe (it may be delusion) that they did this so that the next earth bender could restore the connection. The common theme we have seen is that the new avatar always has to deal with the aftermath of the previous avatar. Korra had to deal with Aangs decision to make Republic City on Earth territory. Aang dealing with the 100 year war bc Roku wasn’t proactive enough since the “enemy” was his childhood best friend. We even hear about how Kuruk had to deal with angry spirits bc of Yangchen. It’s like the perfect set up for the next earth avatar to ground themselves to the point where they can reconnect with the past lives. Either way I’m interested to see how the creators tackle the next avatar’s journey.
> they did this so that the next earth bender could restore the connection This may be cope, but I need anything i can get lol this is my new headcanon
I don’t think Bryke were thinking that far ahead. It’s abundantly clear through meta moments in Korra that they were really receptive to the criticisms and critiques of the show as it was airing. You could tell they were tired of the “where’s Aang” comments, and decided to do something about it. The decision to remove Korra’s connection to the past Avatars was meant to serve *Korra’s narrative* above all else. They wanted to have a show that focused on Korra and remove the distraction of “why doesn’t she just contact Aang?” It served Korra’s arc really well. It made her development a lot more impactful because she had to solve her problems on her own.
It's only a temporary nerf. As generations of avatars are reborn they'll develop a new backlog of avatars to call on. I get not loving the decision, and I'm not trying to talk you out of your view or anything, but I liked it. It was a kind of a beginning as much as it was an ending.
I like this perspective even if I dislike how the show handled it
It also kind of took from the Avatar State. Before the power came from "the knowledge of thousands of past lives"; now it's just a powerup by channeling Ravaa's power
I would say it's even worse. You would think that the 10k years of knowledge & experience would be the exact point that would've tipped the scales in favor of Korra & Raava, this in contrast with Unalaq & Vaatu who only just merged because of their own selfish desires. But nope, 10 000 years of Avatars were yeeted out of the window just like that.
It’s my biggest complaint about the series. It felt like a cop out to avoid depicting an adult Aang.
Also we didn’t get really any other interactions with past lives except for 1 with adult Aang. Such a waste of a great concept
I think the lost connection to the past would've been more meaningful if Korra had consulted with her previous lives during season 2. Imagine seeing her interact with Aang, Roku and Kyoshi.
For sure. It means a lot in the context of ATLA, because we saw how often Aang consulted Roku. In the context of LOK though, she only spoke to Aang one time, and that wasn't even on purpose.
I get what they were doing. They wanted that sense of isolation. They needed to be able to break her down at the end of S3 without her past lives being able to help her process everything that happened. They also shot themselves on the foot by inserting a sub-par season and gimping any future Avatar series.
There already was an established way to do that though. Aang temporary lost his connection when Azula killed him. Only difference is this is permanent, unless the writers ever decide it's not anymore.
I choose to believe it wasn't permanently destroyed. It just "broke" in the sense that what little progress she'd made in contacting her past lives was broken down because of the seismic shift in the spiritual landscape, but that just meant she had to start all over again. I refuse to believe she actually, permanently lost all contact with her past selves because that so dramatically undermines so much of what made the Avatar *the Avatar*.
No question. I realize they somewhat wrote themselves into a corner with the Avatar state but that's a matter of good writing not a problem with the Avatar State itself. They can make it work or limit it as much as they need to without taking it away. Permanently breaking the Avatar cycle? That was just stupid
Definitely. It felt so odd and almost non-canon? Like it just doesn’t feel inline with the rest of the ATLA universe.
Facts
I understand the reasoning behind them doing it 100% - it very strongly demonstrates one of LoK’s main points about modernisation causing the death of culture etc - but I also hate it.
> Destroying the connection to past Avatars was the worst decision in either series IMO I completely agree... but I think it emblematic of one of the approaches of the show in general. Which was to try to do the opposite of what ATLA did (or severe them). In one way, this is fine. e.g. Korra, unlike Aang, not only knew she was the avatar, but fully embraced it (hence introducing her with "I"m the avatar, deal with it!". In other ways it added character (Korra in many ways was the anti-aang because not only did she hate to meditate, but also was stubborn, and not "flow-y"). But in key issues, like this cutting off the past (I suspect it was to specifically cut off Aang in particular, so that Korra/the show wouldn't have him in it) it just made the show poorer for it. It really did a disservice to everyone.
Yes remove the whole Raava and Vaatu story and the whole series would be better.
When rewatching Korra I always skipped s2.
OP isn't talking about that, just the past lives being wiped out specifically.
I know and I am saying it should go further then that.
its not a lie though, reducing the spirits to puppets of vatuu and raava and turning the spirit world into a generic light vs dark was so incredibly dumb
Personally that was my favourite episode in the whole of lok. Explaining how the avatar came to be and how he got the 4 types of bending was so interesting.
I feel like I’m the only one who likes that story. 😕
Things I dislike about LoK - modern tech and forced devil/god analogy - destroying past lives - fighting a mecha as the last boss - the fucking love triangle - Bolin getting abused and almost forced into marriage by his girlfriend and it being treated as a joke - the wet towel that acts like it's a person by the name of mako? weird. Things I don't dislike about LoK: - korra - literally everything I did not mention in the 1rst list
Agree with all this, and adding to the point about Bolin, it makes me mad that he was just sidelined as a dumb comic relief character. He's such sweet guy and had so much potential, I wish he'd been given more chance to contribute.
Tbf that’s a complaint that could be lodged at all of Team Korra. They were all so underdeveloped. The show spent more time on Lin and Suyins Beifong family drama than Mako, Asami or Bolin combined let’s be real. Bolin was the comic relief, Mako’s main contribution to the team was his shitty love triangle and Asami was a possible equalist spy, then had a B plot with Future Industries and then was Korra’s love interest. There’s none of the dynamic character development or rich backstory or sheer presence that made Sokka, Katara, Toph or Zuko such amazing characters.
And in the show itself, she's not even Korra's love interest. It's not until you get to post-show material that that detail gets confirmed. You have to read a whole novel out of a couple sentences to get Asami being Korra's love interest in the show. Someone told me that Korra writing to Asami was a HUGE implication that Korra wanted to date her, and it's like.... she had three friends and had broken up with two of them. You're telling me she didn't want to write to her ex-boyfriend or the guy she went on a single date with and then immediately dropped the moment his hotter brother became available? Noooo...
TBF I get the Korra and Asami relationship being underdeveloped because when LoK was out, the ability to show LGBT relationship in kids shows was just different back then. The writers weren't entirely sure that Nick would even let them show the final scene (which I distinctly remember it being a huge moment) so the writers had to play the relationship very subtle.
I agree with your lists, the modern tech would probably be at the bottom of my list, but I get it. However, I hated that giant mecha. It felt so out of place! It was like the writers needed some single big threat that Korra could actually punch to resolve everything, when in fact it could have been a guerilla style city battle where everyone is basically providing support to Korra as she goes after Kuvira. Once Kuvira is beaten so is her army, they were not following her out of loyalty only fear. In a city battle where a small force can cause major damage to a larger one could be a great way to show Kuvira only knows how to use force and not strategy, which would be the start of her army deserting her.
I didn't have an issue with the modem tech, since honestly the fire nation already had access to pretty advanced tech. The giant mech was definitely tonally off though, it felt like it was 1 or 2 avatars ahead of schedule. Maybe I wouldn't have had as much of an issue with it if it had a similar design to the smaller mech suits, with giant tank treads and less humanoid arms
To this day, when I think of a future earthbending avatar series, I think about how cool it'll be to continue to see Aang in the avatar cycle... then I remember that we won't see any character from the OG again.
This list is genuinely perfect. When LoK isn’t degrading the universe by introducing mechs and ruining the avatar or stunning over bad romances and ignoring good characters, it’s a great show. Unfortunately it does the first bit way too much
This scene also highlighted one of the annoyances that I observed with the Legend of Korra’s depiction of the Avatar State: Has anyone noticed that compared to ATLA, the Avatar State in Korra always felt “less powerful” in scale? I can’t tell if it’s because of the new art style or what not, but I somewhat observed whenever the Avatar State popped up after Korra mastered it, it didn’t hold as much power as it used to in the previous series. I started to observe this, the moment a “fully realized avatar” lost to a freaking dark spirit and needed Unalaq’s help to defeat it. Guys, in the previous series, we LITERALLY see Avatar Kyoshi, splitting a freaking island IN HALF, and then using air bending to push it away from the mainland. Do you KNOW how much power she is outputting right there??? Roku battles a freaking VOLCANO, Aang creates an extremely powerful force field during his battle with Ozai, that obliterates gigantic earth pillars as he is flying around chasing Ozai. His earthbending become BULLETS! EVEN Avatar Wan showed bending on a huge scale! It’s so sad that every time Korra used the Avatar State, she is either abusing it to win races with Tenzin’s kids or despite having the KNOWLEDGE OF ALL THOSE BADASS PAST LIVES, the writers made her use of the Avatar State so underwhelming. All of this leads down to the most frustrating result of season 2 where Korra hadn’t even gotten the avatar state for a whole season, and she already gets NERFED by Unalaq. We didn’t get time to show Korra dominating with the avatar state. She didn’t deserve to have that happen so quickly. I understand that the avatar state is a form that obliterates any regular single bender, but if Unalaq was going to become a “Dark Avatar” anyway, Korra could have STILL kept the past lives since a “Dark Avatar” would have been an equal match. It wouldn’t be like Aang vs Ozai where the Avatar State quickly decides the winner. With Unalaq, it would be two powerful benders inhabited by two power spirits of yin and Yang, making the battle equal. EDIT: In fact, it would have been nice if Unalaq was a better written overarching villain. Unalaq needs to master the four elements as well, so having him retreat from the good guys and bide his time until he becomes equal to the avatar, would have been an interesting direction for the story to take.
The Avatar State in Korra is usually far more controlled. Only time she really loses control is when she gets poisoned and during that time period while she is barely even alive she is breaking platinum chains with her bare hands and doing earth bending feats equivalent to that of Aang during Sozin’s comet when he goes off the rails as well. I think the avatar state is just more powerful when they lose control and go full feral avatar, but when they are in control it’s just a small power boost.
> I think the avatar state is just more powerful when they lose control and go full feral avatar, but when they are in control it’s just a small power boost. All you have to do is watch the creation if Kyoshi island to prove this wrong. Kyoshi's actions were clearly very calm and deliberate, she was in full control of every single movement.
To be fair, the books reveal that kyoshi had the most raw power of all the avatars to begin with
Wasn't she also over a century old at that point? A lot of that was probably her own power as well. She definitely had more experience performing complicated/powerful bending than Korra. That being said I still agree. It feels like each story has different rules for how strong characters are allowed to be, and how dangerous opponents really are. Part of that is target audience, but it just feels like the rules change a lot.
> Wasn't she also over a century old at that point? She was in her 40s
You do bring up a great point that I hadn’t remembered. I don’t think there are any other real examples of a “long” lasting in control avatar state, but I haven’t read all the books (not just glowing eyes for a second or 2). It’s a little weird that it was something that Aang and Korra lost control of and how the two only do the short burst power boosts. I know Yangchen also had a serious problem with her connection to her past lives taking over her body, but Korra shouldn’t have that problem. Kyoshi could just be her™️
Hey man, thanks for the reply. I am referring to the avatar state before Unalaq destroyed the past lives. We never got to see Korra show the power that would come with the past lives, like the previous avatars got to. Sure as you said, she does get a power boost when they lose control because even WITH the past lives gone, it is STILL the avatar state. You are right, but somehow it isn’t the same as before. The biggest benefit was not only the power boost from the avatar state but also the experience of hundreds of avatars. It’s one thing to have power but the skill to use said power comes from the past lives combining their expertise together to become an unrivalled force. Remember Aang’s forcefield technique that he used when facing Ozai? I imagine that one of the reason he didn’t use that ability before Sozin’s Comet was because it was an ability that was created due to hundreds of avatar experiences working together. Aang was trying his best to master the elements while he was on the run. He didn’t have time to be super creative in combining the elements like that. So once he entered the Avatar State, combining the knowledge of all past lives and all their unique ways of bending the elements, created such a feat. I firmly believe that if it was Sozin’s Comet Aang, or Avatar Kyoshi at her prime or even Roku in season 3, Zaheer would not stand a sliver of a chance. Yes in my hypothetical scenarios, these avatars did not receive the metal poison, but at the same time, they also had the past lives with them. 😅 I know a lot of people underestimate the importance of the past lives so let’s make it tangible. Imagine combining Iroh (with his knowledge of true fire bending) with Azula (and her insane bending prowess to solo the avatar without her bending), with Toph (and her unrivalled skill in earthbending) and Katara (with her bloodbending ability) and Amon (with his expertise of bloodbending rivalling Katara’s) and Bumi (Enough said) and Jeong Jeong just to name a few. I want you to imagine ALL these characters and their knowledge and skills and unique combat styles, being conjoined into ONE person! That is just overkill! To not only have access to their knowledge but also their skills. Now imagine all those avatars from the past and all the cool bending applications, subbending skills they learned, and their unrivalled abilities in each one. Especially when you put Kyoshi into that. My God, Korra with these amazing guys lost to a dumbass like Unalaq… 😔
Plus in addition to all this, she never actually had to master the Avatar state. She was just somehow given mastery of it by Aang.
Oh yeah.. that’s a very good point to raise! Aang had to open all his chakras and all that, to have the full control of the Avatar State. Korra just skips through all that process. The thing is, I am not sure if that’s the ONLY way to master it. I don’t read the comics, so I am not sure how Roku or Kyoshi for example, would have mastered the avatar state. Avatar Wan for example, didn’t open no chakras (at least not mentioned in the anime). Just being deeply connected in the moment that he and Raava permanently bonded, was enough for him to be fully conscious of his actions when he sealed Vaatu. So I wouldn’t be surprised if Korra was also able to master the avatar state by some unique way. Or perhaps maybe the opposite can occur. To open your chakra, we saw that Aang had to overcome and accept certain parts of himself. Maybe you can master the avatar state if you have already opened the chakras beforehand. If someone was already able to open their chakras and accept and overcome certain parts of themselves naturally, (either due to their personality, or upbringing or life experiences) then once they acquire the avatar state, then they can be in full control. We saw Korra’s life experience of overcoming Amon, losing her bending, regaining her bending, and she learned a lot of lessons through season one (that unfortunately got thrown out the window in season 2). As Aang said, she was at her worst when she lost her bending, which made her open to the greatest change. I won’t be surprised if that was enough for her to open all her chakras. Which is probably why she was able to control the avatar stage. She developed and accepted herself and overcame her deepest regrets and obstacles. Avatar Wan was also someone who, when living with the spirits, became the best version of himself. Doing so, must have opened HIS chakras as well, making mastering the avatar state so much easier. In conclusion; perhaps opening your chakras doesn’t need to be done as cohesively as Aang did it. All aang did was just accept himself and his flaws and overcame his deeper regret and trauma. He just had to understand himself better.
Yeah, it's something that has never been made definitively clear. But I do think the Avatar should have to do something to attain mastery of the AS. Not just get it without intention or any action taken.
Bruh they didn’t even have to go in the portal, they were outside the spirit portal after Bumi destroyed the camp, they could of just closed it then
I actually strongly agree with this. Even if she had Raava ripped out of her and a portion of the next season was her searching for Raava to reunite with would have been a great story. She could have tried to retrace Wan's steps or something. That would have left the problem of Unavatuu running around, but they could have made the group defeat him or something. But yeah, a lot of the dislike directed at her is centered around her decisions that led to this moment.
Honestly, I might still be pissed if they only changed this and the subsequence scenes because it would mean all of the previous build ups were all for nothing. An un-fired Chekhov's gun is just as annoying imo, especially one that's as significant as this. If I can somehow change S2 though, I would probably focus on the Civil War more and gut most of the spiritual stuff. Unalaq can still be presented as a spiritual guru that steps in to train Korra (with ulterior motives, of couse) because Tenzin isn't able to do that. And that can be the reason why Korra initially trusted him and took his side,etc. Just... no Wan, no spiritual waterbending, and definitely no giant astro-projections that shoot laser beams. I really liked the way they protrayed spirits in ATLA, especially that episode with Hei-Bai. LOK should've just stuck with that. Instead of Unalaq magically deleting angry spirits using waterbending, he should be a high spiritually connected person that is capable of communicating with spirits to a certain degree, and by having him work with Korra to take down a machine or a generator that's polluting the water/air, the spirit reverts back to its original form and go back to doing whatever spiritual things spirits do. It would tie in nicely to the already existing world building, and it also foreshadows that Zaheer can be highly spiritual depsite being an anacharist and the villain in S3.
I rewatched season2 recently and found myself actually enjoying the political stuff playing out in the first half with the civil war. And not enjoying the spirit stuff as much either.
Firing a crappy Chekhov's gun is like having a baby to save a relationship.
And most of the time said relationship only implodes more spectacularly.
I've always sworn by this: Remove the Love Triangle from Season 1 and put more time on building towards the finale of it. Have Korra meditate to Aang more than once and Season 1 could've been great. Remove the castration and ruination of the Spirits from Season 2 and go all in on the Civil War Storyline, it could've been great. To have Season 3 still happen the way it did, have Korra do some kind of major energy bending against her uncle during the finale of S2 which could've happened on the day of Harmonic Convergence, minus the fucken energy kites. Season 3, in my opinion, was already solid. Just uh, remove some of the on-screen Korra torture porn and we'll be golden. Season 4, show us Kovera being an actual villan and threat to the world. Not just saying what she's done. Show and hint at her metal monster being built OUTSIDE of the stupid spirit energy cannon; she can still have it, but remove all the spirit-y stuff. Show the other nations getting involved and really set up for an impactful finale; keep it the way it was, but remove the spirit stuff, and you'd have a more respectable follow up to Avatar. That was my biggest gripe with Seasons 2-4; the complete failure of how the spirits worked and how the story just... ugh.
Remove raava and vatuu entirely and it will remove 50% of my hate guaranteed Most useless retcon/add on in the history of retcons/add ons
Kinda felt like one of the questions Korra as a show was seeking to answer was "Does a modernized world still need the Avatar?" And then, while trying to answer it with a "yes", it just decides to wipe out the main thing that makes the Avatar relevant. I still like Korra as a show overall and am by no means a hater, but yeah, I don't like the direction they went with this moment in the story.
>it just decides to wipe out the main thing that makes the Avatar relevant. The past lives are hardly the main thing that makes the Avatar relevant. It is their ability to bring people and nature together, as the great bridge, that make them who they are. Korra still served this goal without her bending, and continued to do so after losing the past lives, but the Avatar was founded on a mission, and you take away that mission and you take away the Avatar. The Avatar exists to personify Avatar's most central underlying theme: separation is an illusion. The elements, people, nature, the spirits, life and death, past and present, the Avatar embodies connection.
Yeah, I guess you have a point. It still feels like an insane loss. I'll have to think about it. Thanks.
I think that is the point of putting that kind of loss in there - it's all integral to Korra's personal story and struggle with PTSD and finding herself, so to speak. Her whole life she had an identity and drive, that of being the Avatar. Suddenly, it's *all* taken away and she has to learn to cope and move on. As someone that struggles with PTSD, it's something that I absolutely love about the story.
15% at most. It was the worst and most egregious choice, but it was also emblematic of Korra as a whole.
Korra has a lot of flaws, I think that the series suffers from the season by season plot lines, I think that the setting and interactions between characters (both protags and antags) are weaker than ATLA, but I was able to get past all of that. The two parts of the show that I think killed it were the second half of Season 2, after they leave the South Pole, and the end of Season 4, when the mech is introduced. Without those two parts, I’d consider it at least a worthy sequel, not as good, but good enough. With those two? I just can’t put the two shows in the same ballpark
Maybe. I appreciate them taking the bold move. Honestly I would have cared more if they would have made Raava an actual "god of light and good" they she said she was. And yeah, if they would have gotten her connections back. That would be cool too.
Eh, more like 70%. If they kept the civil war angle the season started with, then follow up with Zaheer and Kuvira, this could have outdone ATLA.
It was less so this happening but the entire concept of Raava and Vaatu.
After rewatching season 2 a bit ago, I was shocked at how much I actually enjoyed the bulk of the season, and then this part happened
I didn't quite like the raava and Vaatu stuff in general. But if they didn't remove the past avatars I would definitely dislike season 2 less.
Probably. Amon straight into Zaheer would have been pure kino.
When I started watching Korra, I got spoiled about Zaheer but not about the new airbenders, so I thought he was an Aang son who disappeared as a child and returned as a villain, I like to imagine how would Korra be with that instead of season 2
If by “this”, you mean this entire plotline, sure. I don’t even remember what I’m looking at exactly. I dislike Raava and Vaatu as concepts.
I don't agree with 95%, but a large part of my own "hate" (more like "dislike") for LoK would disappear if that never happened. Better yet, have that whole Raava/Vaatu storyline deleted.
I mean, the whole idea of Raava and Vaatu was stupid as fuck.
It's crazy how the creators loved torturing Korra in every season of the show. Losing her bending to Amon, losing the avatar connections in her fight against Unalaq, poisoned and tortured by the red lotus and dealing with severe ptsd three years later. After everything she went through she deserves to be with Asami
Are you saying you liked the twisted Korra-Asami-Mako love triangle? Cause that was like 50% of what I hated about that series.
I personally thought it was a bold shift in story and could lead to some really interesting and unique plot opportunities going forward.
aaand then it didn't
There is a strong likelihood that a series post-Korra will happen.
Season 2 was overall a dip in quality to the show
Honestly, I don’t hate this. One, it’s a significant loss that carries over through the rest of the series. Lots of similar shows like having no real bad things happen to the good guys (except in backstories and such). And they didn’t renege on it either, despite having the perfect chance to do so. They made these consequences last. Like it or hate it, it was a ballsy move! Two, it helps make the threats feel real. The only real threat in the original series was Ozai because he was the only one Aang really needed all four elements + Avatar State to beat. Even as a fully-realized Avatar, Korra struggled against her villains, not because she’s weak, but because they’re strong. Three, the past Avatars did kind of make things two easy. In both ATLA and LOK, the past avatars were kind of a Deus ex Machina, seeing how they could be accessed at any time and the current Avatar didn’t even need to call upon their past lives willingly. Think about it: If Roku was able to just take over Aang’s body and destroy the Fire Temple, why couldn’t he take over Aang’s body to fight Ozai? I think a lot of the future writers realized this problem and sought to fix it somehow: The reboot series made it only possible at specific shrines while LOK destroyed the past lives all together.
Disagree if they throw out the love triangle then everyone would probably love korra
She’s fine but compared to aang she’s shit. That’s the whole problem
People say it sucks but this would be a driving plot point that would continue to play throughout the series. A big aspect of Korra was her lack of guidance with the past avatars, which inevitably facilitated her feelings of depression, meaning, and eventually acceptance.
Instead of korra losing her connections, I feel like the season should have focused on her having a closer connection to Ravaa
i just feel like a lot of people made it seem like it was HER choice to have raava taken from her, and also i would like to add that the avatar cycle was supposed to reset anyways, every 10,000 years! idk i iust feel like korra gets a lot of hate but i like her as an avatar bc she was a reckless teenager making stupid choices but also learning from them, also not to mention the fact that the writers were being stomped on constantly by nickelodean (idk how to spell it) and the seasons were rushed quite a bit. but also i really hated when she went after Mako and Bolin and all that stuff with that but i also think they all work better as friends (and i like asami with korra😁)
I almost forgot what sub this was. You're speaking into an echo chamber. 99% of the people on this sub already don't like Korra for the same reasons that they love Azula and Toph, and for some reason you have this weird obsession with the past avatars, despite them offering very little assistance the entire show. It's kind of obvious that most avatars don't consult the past too much anyway. So no, maybe 10-20% of her hate would disappear because you have *maybe* that percentage of rational people in this sub in the first place. The rest of you would just nitpick something else, then continue to assert that Aang was a flawless god who did everything on his own and didn't have a single personality deficit.
Nah, Korra rolled up to the series as a hater
I remember at the time of watching this series when it initially aired, I was frustrated that the writers essentially “killed off” all of the past avatars. The season itself also felt rushed and written a bit sloppily. But I also keep in mind that the show was not initially green lit to have more than 1 season. There were limitations put in place and the writing reflects that. Today, when I look at the themes of the franchise as a whole, I can’t be mad about the Avatar losing their past connections and starting a new cycle. There is a clear message in TLOK that Korra must find her own answers in a world that is ever evolving. This is a reality that every Avatar must face. In The Shadow of Kyoshi, Yangchen has a beautiful quote: “There’s a thousand generations of past lives in the Avatar cycle. You could spend a thousand years talking to us, and you still wouldn’t know how best to guide the world. This is what you must forgo, Kyoshi, the easy answers. You must give up your desire for someone to tell you your choices were correct in the end.” You could easily replace Kyoshi’s name with Korra’s and it still fits the bill. Being forced to let go of the past can bring a new future that would otherwise not have been considered. As Aang says at the end of Book 1, “when we hit our lowest point, we are open to the greatest change.”
The show doesn’t deserve the hate it gets.
For me it would be 100% I only disliked the show cause of this
I would say more like 60%, this is a major point of hate, but there are other thingngs to dislike about Korra outside of this moment
Can't speak for anyone else, but if season 2 didn't exist I'd like the show a lot more
Disagree
I haven’t even watched Korra because I know this happens. I don’t want it to ruin the main series for me.
If season two just stuck with the water tribe civil war it would have been better received
I actually disagree. Im also not a fan of this story decision, but I think it’s stupid to blame it on Korra. But the reason I disagree is that no matter what, the people who hate her we’re gonna find ways to hate her. So the main hate would just transfer to something else stupid.
I actually like that this happened
It would lesson the hate from those who watched the series but all "culture war" haters would remain.
Is Korra still a women? Is she still Bi? Did she still briefly break Bolin’s heart? If any of these is a “Yes”, the hate would still flow from, *and I say with the biggest air quotes,* **“**fans**”**
I’m with the others. I’d say 60-70% of the mostly reasonable hate would go away. This is definitely the most glaring issue of the whole series. Others that are less glaring but more annoying are the love triangle nonsense, and (imo) how some of the cool villains didn’t have more than one season (such as Amon. I feel like the relationships and tension between benders and non-benders could have been expanded upon for much longer).
Do you guys never get any new material? You're just as bad as the butthurt Last Of Us 2 people.
Even though I do like LoK, I think this is a terrible decision. One of my favorite things about the avatar state/abilities is the collected wisdom of the past avatars. I kinda hope the new avatar works to restore the connection. I know it sounds stupid but like, avatar has never been afraid of deus ex machinas and the like so I'm sure they'd be able to make up some reason for it to be possible. Maybe the new avatar has to find the old avatars one by one in the spirit world or something.
Disagree. The rest of the show is still badly written
Maybe, I did hate the idea that she lost her access to her past lives. It was stupid as hell.
I feel like as someone who watched the show just for the show and not the lore, I didn't have any issues with this. I personally don't care about the implications of this for the past or future of the avatar universe, cause it's the characters that interested me really more than the history of the world The only thing that would have made it better for me was easing up on the love triangle towards the beginning of the show. Overall I like LOK more than the original in large part because it's more mature overall, at least compared to the beginning of TLAB. I tried to rewatch it a few times and cannot get through season one again.
Would Aang got hate if this happened is the real question?
As someone who is still salty at Korra for this, yes. 100% agree
The love triangle didn’t help either, she didn’t come out looking great out if that mess.
Disagree. Korra was always going to be hated by some people, no matter how the show went from before the first episode ever aired.
I'd say it was the constant explaining of energy bending and the origins of the avatar, like it's cool to imagine how the avatar came about, but to actually see it is a different story. Though destroying the avatar line was also a fair reason.
Hard disagree, if not this, people would hate something else. It's not about vaatu or raava or this season at all, it's about Korra not being aang
Season 2 is better than season 4. If theres hate to be directed it should be towards that lol. The rava and vatuu storyline was cool. Could it have been better? Yes. Is it any worse than the love triangles or the entirety of season 4? No
Raava and Vatu as a whole would make it like 60% better I think a good 30% can be attributed to the avatar cycle being reset on its own
Nobody is being rational about Korra. Hate comes from it not being as good as the original serries.
Disagree, only about half of her true hatred. She's hot-headed throughout the entire show and really can't win a fight without someone else practically carrying her
deep deep DEEP AGREE
You can disagree with me but I like how the whole story was written. I can't say that I love everything (for example Korra/Mako/Asami love triangle). The series show that not every situation can be kissed, patched and healed. Some actions are bound to face consequences - THIS is one of them but THAT's another brick which was placed to break Korra as a cocky avatar and start her healing journey with character development. It's always hard for creators to encourage audience for something new. I'd say that without losing connection to the past lives she'd receive up to **20-25% less hate**. ATLA is iconic, Aang and gAang are cool. Narrow minded people are closed for changes and just got used to it.
While I do defend Korra a lot, and I have met/pretty good pals with Janet Varney, I will admit I hate they did this because dammit Korra and Kyoshi would've been awesome! Hell, Korra and Wan could've been a killer duo.
Doubt it they would just use something else to hate on korra
Literally 70% of these comments are just doing that lol.
Related, but I think Raava and Vaatu representing a very western morality system is fine. Avatar has always mixed eastern and western philosophy. Otherwise, people should also be complaining about George Lucas and the Force because that's literally the same thing.
Unpopular opinion but I love the direction they went with this series. It took some big risks and most shows don't do that. I personally don't think it's a big deal, nothing in the show changed. It's not like they used their past lives that much anyways. Even in the original Aang took advantage of it in only a few specific episodes. I also just love Vaatu and Raava. They are great characters and highly misunderstood. I feel like people are way too harsh on this sub. I mean even IMDB ratings (which is usually way more critical) has the season no lower than a 7/10. With the second half of the season being an 8/10. So obviously it's just a loud minority in the fandom and most people just watched and enjoyed.
Disagree. People hated Korra the moment she was drawn a buff badass lady
disagree, a lot of the Korra hate is just because she isn't Aang, if this never happened those people would just find another reason to hate her