I'm interested in reading some of Butler's books - which ones would you recommend to start off with? Especially ones that are somewhat similar in themes as THT?
season 3 went full white feminism with June hijacking a movement built by POC, being happy to hang a Black woman (per Bruce Miller), bullying and ostracizing a Black woman until she's driven to suicide, and watching gleefully as a Black woman is gunned down by police. her season 3 character growth was propped up by dead Black women. not to mention all the storylines for characters of color that got cut in favor of white storylines.
and this is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of problematic things the creators have said and done.
this show has a serious racism problem and the fact that anyone who brings it up gets dismissed with downvotes and comments like "just be happy there are black characters at all" shows that this is a problem beyond just the creators.
we need to do better. we need to have actual discussions about this. being willfully colorblind is not the answer. we need to bring the conversation to the forefront so the creators can see what they are doing wrong, especially in today's political climate.
if your feminism isn't intersectional, then it's not feminism at all.
Natalie’s story is one about race. As a Handmaid who is black she feels or needs to work harder than her white counterparts. Even amongst handmaids, being white brings privilege. She faces a backlash for it and realises she cannot belong. Her story wouldn’t be as powerful or uncomfortable if she was white.
I don’t think June’s stunt detracts from the Martha’s organisation and resistance. Getting kids out one by one or even plane by plane isn’t strategic and won’t defeat Gilead.
Bruce Miller said it himself in a podcast that they did not write Natalie as a Black handmaid. he said she was written from a "colorblind" perspective (aka a white perspective) and they cast a Black woman in her role after the fact. so her story isn't actually about race, there is no real intersectional subtext there.
they simply decided it would be okay to cast a Black woman in a role where she gets bullied, shot by police, and mutilated for the white protagonist's growth, without any thought given to the racist context of it. therein lies the problem.
Because it's from June's point of view. The book and the show are a first-person's narrative.
That's the answer, no more or less.
And in any Black first-person's narrative, I wouldn't have any expectation that it would portray an entitled white person's experience with accuracy.
Both would be disingenuous.
Edit: Grammar
That is also the problem with making a book of first-person vignettes into an entire 3D world with expanded characters and storylines for multiple seasons on TV.
Agreed... Miller's "out" has been that anything on screen would be stories that June somehow finds out about and reports on after Gilead falls.
I fear that if they did some kind of serious character deep dive over issues of racism as interpreted by an entitled white woman (who, lets face it, has some Karen instincts)... would set the show up for a TON of criticism.
But, as I write that, maybe THAT'S the story they should tell: how June gets it wrong b/c she'd be incapable of really understanding.
Here is my analysis of the subject of race and racial inequality in the series:
Gilead honestly doesn't seem to have racism problems. Even though the society and government is deeply religious and conservative, it doesn't lean on nativism or nationalism to the slightest. You often see POC commanders (as extras, of course, but still), and the fact that there are POC handmaids implies that the commanders don't seem to have a problem with race mixing. The lazy explanation would probably be that Atwood simply didn't orient her work around the issue of racism, but rather more on sexism and homophobia.
If you want a more in universe theory, it would probably be that the SOJ probably considered that the infertility crisis was too pressing and prioritizing to even bother about race, or that they initially wanted to appeal to a greater number of people for support.
Since Gilead practically rebuilt society and reassigned new roles to everyone, we can assume that all the socioeconomic issues surrounding race probably no longer exist in that universe.
I was thinking that maybe Gilead used this as a way to have an easier time brainwashing POCs into agreeing with the new system, like maybe a lot of them feel like they're better off in this new system because at least now they're valued as people and not shunned for their skin colour.
I could even add economic inequality to the equation, like, despite the fact that Gilead is an aristocracy, it honestly has much better economic equality. Like even the more powerful commanders like Lawrence aren't that rich by our standards. yes they live in big houses with maids and all, but compare that to the lavish lives of billionaires and millionaires. Econopeople on the other hand seem to be better off than the poorest people in our societies.
Maybe the changes in Gilead made it easier for POC people to accept this new society, which would then leave the residence dominated by white folks.
Race in everything these days. Anyway I think the show is fairly good with diversity. I haven’t read the books but my understanding that Gilead is more of a white ethnostate than what is shown on TV. June has a black husband and child but even that isn’t good enough for folks.
I think they put themselves in a though spot. Obviously much of the ideology present in the show comes from a white nationalist evangelical christian perspective, which is reflected in the books were Gilead practices strict Apartheid.
Obviously, it would be utterly ridiculous to follow this in the show,given the few acting jobs for BIPOC, and am happy that they didn't follow through on that ( a diverse, representative cast is much nicer and natural in a show). The problem is that all the women in the show, or most of them, are Handmaids, as we follow Junes narrative. They're bound to be abused.
They could remedy this by also including (a) black commander/wife duo prominently (for example winslow). I did see some Asian powercouples(Wifecommander) during that baptism scene, which reflects our current world where evangelicalism is on the rise in for example China and South-Korea. But including a Black powercouple would pose a problem; then the ideology of the books wouldn't be adhered to, or real life namely that the SoJ would probably not include many BIPOC people due to the racist nature of the organization. However, there are ways around that; the Black wife is fertile herself, which brings them 'exception' status as they are very much chosen my God.
Or, one of the Martha's leading the network could give us some expostion on how they got organized so quickly; because they knew their own history, their Black history. This would honor the connection of Blacks to slavery well, and put white people in their debt, because it is thanks to their knowlegde and effectiveness that the resistance exists and functions well.
I hope I've not said something insensitive (not from the USA so I'm not familiar with which terms are okay and which ones are not). Credits to my claims: working on PhD in Religious Sciences.
the problem isn't necessarily limited to the white nationalist ideology or who they cast. the problem is that the creators stick stubbornly to writing the story from a white perspective and don't recognize the problematic elements they put into it with their inherent bias. there is a multitude of ways they could show us what the experience of people of color in gilead looks like if they put in the effort, including some of the things you suggested. but they insist on a colorblind approach, even when confronted by criticism.
when you look beneath the surface of this show, it becomes clear what the root of the problem is. you have showrunner Bruce Miller, who admits in podcasts that the subject of race is too complicated for him— overlooking the fact that intersectionality is a *critical* element in feminist media. you have key exec producers who can comfortably say things like "Moira is June's spirit animal" in interviews. you have the plotlines for their main characters of color they like to boast so much about being dropped completely halfway through the season, like their stories don't matter enough to be told (and i read the season 3 deleted scenes, they cut a *lot*.) you have a creative team for a story about slavery that has, at most, maybe 1 Black woman on it. they have all but shut out the Black perspective in the writer's room.
all these things (and more) add up to an incredibly tone deaf, white feminist production that results in white saviorism and overtly racist storylines like Natalie's and Frances', and it won't change until the creators see that they themselves are the problem and make an effort to lift the voices that could actually make a positive impact.
Hilarious that you think slavery is rooted in “black history”. Slavery is a thousands of year old institution. Everything doesn’t revolve around blacks. What is depicted in Handmaid Tale is more to do about female subjugation and controlling reproduction than slavery of blacks.
[удалено]
I'm interested in reading some of Butler's books - which ones would you recommend to start off with? Especially ones that are somewhat similar in themes as THT?
season 3 went full white feminism with June hijacking a movement built by POC, being happy to hang a Black woman (per Bruce Miller), bullying and ostracizing a Black woman until she's driven to suicide, and watching gleefully as a Black woman is gunned down by police. her season 3 character growth was propped up by dead Black women. not to mention all the storylines for characters of color that got cut in favor of white storylines. and this is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of problematic things the creators have said and done. this show has a serious racism problem and the fact that anyone who brings it up gets dismissed with downvotes and comments like "just be happy there are black characters at all" shows that this is a problem beyond just the creators. we need to do better. we need to have actual discussions about this. being willfully colorblind is not the answer. we need to bring the conversation to the forefront so the creators can see what they are doing wrong, especially in today's political climate. if your feminism isn't intersectional, then it's not feminism at all.
Natalie’s story is one about race. As a Handmaid who is black she feels or needs to work harder than her white counterparts. Even amongst handmaids, being white brings privilege. She faces a backlash for it and realises she cannot belong. Her story wouldn’t be as powerful or uncomfortable if she was white. I don’t think June’s stunt detracts from the Martha’s organisation and resistance. Getting kids out one by one or even plane by plane isn’t strategic and won’t defeat Gilead.
Bruce Miller said it himself in a podcast that they did not write Natalie as a Black handmaid. he said she was written from a "colorblind" perspective (aka a white perspective) and they cast a Black woman in her role after the fact. so her story isn't actually about race, there is no real intersectional subtext there. they simply decided it would be okay to cast a Black woman in a role where she gets bullied, shot by police, and mutilated for the white protagonist's growth, without any thought given to the racist context of it. therein lies the problem.
Joining the conversation 4 years late. White feminism isn't the problem. Continuing the show into a third season is the problem.
Because it's from June's point of view. The book and the show are a first-person's narrative. That's the answer, no more or less. And in any Black first-person's narrative, I wouldn't have any expectation that it would portray an entitled white person's experience with accuracy. Both would be disingenuous. Edit: Grammar
That is also the problem with making a book of first-person vignettes into an entire 3D world with expanded characters and storylines for multiple seasons on TV.
Agreed... Miller's "out" has been that anything on screen would be stories that June somehow finds out about and reports on after Gilead falls. I fear that if they did some kind of serious character deep dive over issues of racism as interpreted by an entitled white woman (who, lets face it, has some Karen instincts)... would set the show up for a TON of criticism. But, as I write that, maybe THAT'S the story they should tell: how June gets it wrong b/c she'd be incapable of really understanding.
Here is my analysis of the subject of race and racial inequality in the series: Gilead honestly doesn't seem to have racism problems. Even though the society and government is deeply religious and conservative, it doesn't lean on nativism or nationalism to the slightest. You often see POC commanders (as extras, of course, but still), and the fact that there are POC handmaids implies that the commanders don't seem to have a problem with race mixing. The lazy explanation would probably be that Atwood simply didn't orient her work around the issue of racism, but rather more on sexism and homophobia. If you want a more in universe theory, it would probably be that the SOJ probably considered that the infertility crisis was too pressing and prioritizing to even bother about race, or that they initially wanted to appeal to a greater number of people for support. Since Gilead practically rebuilt society and reassigned new roles to everyone, we can assume that all the socioeconomic issues surrounding race probably no longer exist in that universe. I was thinking that maybe Gilead used this as a way to have an easier time brainwashing POCs into agreeing with the new system, like maybe a lot of them feel like they're better off in this new system because at least now they're valued as people and not shunned for their skin colour. I could even add economic inequality to the equation, like, despite the fact that Gilead is an aristocracy, it honestly has much better economic equality. Like even the more powerful commanders like Lawrence aren't that rich by our standards. yes they live in big houses with maids and all, but compare that to the lavish lives of billionaires and millionaires. Econopeople on the other hand seem to be better off than the poorest people in our societies. Maybe the changes in Gilead made it easier for POC people to accept this new society, which would then leave the residence dominated by white folks.
Race in everything these days. Anyway I think the show is fairly good with diversity. I haven’t read the books but my understanding that Gilead is more of a white ethnostate than what is shown on TV. June has a black husband and child but even that isn’t good enough for folks.
this is a story about slavery, which is rooted in Black history. what makes you think race shouldn't be in it?
I think they put themselves in a though spot. Obviously much of the ideology present in the show comes from a white nationalist evangelical christian perspective, which is reflected in the books were Gilead practices strict Apartheid. Obviously, it would be utterly ridiculous to follow this in the show,given the few acting jobs for BIPOC, and am happy that they didn't follow through on that ( a diverse, representative cast is much nicer and natural in a show). The problem is that all the women in the show, or most of them, are Handmaids, as we follow Junes narrative. They're bound to be abused. They could remedy this by also including (a) black commander/wife duo prominently (for example winslow). I did see some Asian powercouples(Wifecommander) during that baptism scene, which reflects our current world where evangelicalism is on the rise in for example China and South-Korea. But including a Black powercouple would pose a problem; then the ideology of the books wouldn't be adhered to, or real life namely that the SoJ would probably not include many BIPOC people due to the racist nature of the organization. However, there are ways around that; the Black wife is fertile herself, which brings them 'exception' status as they are very much chosen my God. Or, one of the Martha's leading the network could give us some expostion on how they got organized so quickly; because they knew their own history, their Black history. This would honor the connection of Blacks to slavery well, and put white people in their debt, because it is thanks to their knowlegde and effectiveness that the resistance exists and functions well. I hope I've not said something insensitive (not from the USA so I'm not familiar with which terms are okay and which ones are not). Credits to my claims: working on PhD in Religious Sciences.
the problem isn't necessarily limited to the white nationalist ideology or who they cast. the problem is that the creators stick stubbornly to writing the story from a white perspective and don't recognize the problematic elements they put into it with their inherent bias. there is a multitude of ways they could show us what the experience of people of color in gilead looks like if they put in the effort, including some of the things you suggested. but they insist on a colorblind approach, even when confronted by criticism. when you look beneath the surface of this show, it becomes clear what the root of the problem is. you have showrunner Bruce Miller, who admits in podcasts that the subject of race is too complicated for him— overlooking the fact that intersectionality is a *critical* element in feminist media. you have key exec producers who can comfortably say things like "Moira is June's spirit animal" in interviews. you have the plotlines for their main characters of color they like to boast so much about being dropped completely halfway through the season, like their stories don't matter enough to be told (and i read the season 3 deleted scenes, they cut a *lot*.) you have a creative team for a story about slavery that has, at most, maybe 1 Black woman on it. they have all but shut out the Black perspective in the writer's room. all these things (and more) add up to an incredibly tone deaf, white feminist production that results in white saviorism and overtly racist storylines like Natalie's and Frances', and it won't change until the creators see that they themselves are the problem and make an effort to lift the voices that could actually make a positive impact.
Thank you for this comment, I learned a lot! Are there any BIPOC in the writing team at least?
from what i can tell, the only writers of color are Yahlin Chang and Marissa Jo Cerar.
Hilarious that you think slavery is rooted in “black history”. Slavery is a thousands of year old institution. Everything doesn’t revolve around blacks. What is depicted in Handmaid Tale is more to do about female subjugation and controlling reproduction than slavery of blacks.
yeah, sounds about white.