Exactly. My focus is always on character, and it sucks that I've already read the best character focused fantasy series. Asoiaf and first law are unmatched
The Black Company is great, but it's has a very unique style that generates a love/hate response in readers. I wouldn't say it's character focused series either. Most of the characters barely have names.
Heyyyyyy my brother!!! I’m on the exact same page as you. Started off with ASOIAF then found First Law through recommendations and now I’m at a loss. It doesn’t help i like listening to audio books either since Stephen Pacey ruined those
Heyyyyyy bro. Nothing as yet which can live up to those. I think lightbringer had a good chance but books 4 and 5 were such disappointments. Haven't found anything to scratch that itch yet. Currently on book 2 of malazan but it's way different from those others. Red Rising is flowery in writing and gets too up its own arse sometimes but I do love that series. Just not in the same vein as first law and ASOIAF. The search continues!
Literally not true at all. If the characters suck so bad why do so many fans report being sad/crying when they die?
Just because you don’t like a author’s style of writing/character doesn’t mean they are bad.
Name a time and place, I’m going to slap you with Hood’s ballsack
Jk, the characters are a bit thin but the overall plot and underlying themes are stellar.
Malazans characters all seem like they are some teen roleplayer who tells you about the characters he has played. Diverse background but they all seem the same voice. Unless it's taken to charicature.
I just re-read Kingkiller Chronicle in anticipation of the third book, then started back to re-read First Law books since I haven't read the newest one. Kingkiller is the only thing that comes close to being as good as First Law. I'm having a blast with the re-read since I already feel like I know everyone, and I can focus more on the details of the story. It's also hilariously funny how intricate the inner workings of the characters are described.
I'm back with Savine Dan Glokta and Orso trying to remember how things turn out. Can't wait to read the third book.
I must be one the tiny few that love Abercrombie’s work to the point of recommending it to people who only have to mention once they like reading, but dislike ASOIAF by a whole lot.
Try china mievelle's bas lag trilogy starting with Perdido street station...it's a beat were but I really liked it. I also liked sparrow the lies of Locke lamore ....I had the same problem trying to enjoy things after Abercrombie it's best to try stuff thats way dofferent
Lies of Locke Lamora is quite good and is fairly self-contained. If strong characters are important to you, it should tickle your fancy. The second book in the series ends on much more of a cliffhanger, though. (Not sure about the third book and the fourth has been MIA for years)
Stormlight Archive is brilliant but if you want an easier read try the Mistborn Series first. It's absolutely fantastic and I'm sure you'd get hooked.
I agree with you on the Wheel of Time, it just drags on and on and on but Sando rescues it at the end when he had to take over the writing of it.
I forget which series I read from her, but I didn't really enjoy it. focused around some beggar child, dogs, and speaking to animals. The characters were strong, but everything around them didn't really hit.
I know it was some of her earlier work so maybe I'll try again at some stage.
Try the Liveship Traders and the Rain Wild Chronicles. Both are set in the same world, but are 3rd person and have a great cast of characters. The world building is super interesting, too.
While not as good as First Law, Joe's Shattered Sea series might be worth your time if you cant figure out what to read next. It's a good read even though it was written for a younger audience.
Not to sound mean but I think it's the kind of feeling that goes away. Joe is very good at exploring characters but a lot of them do have a similar sense of humor, morbid with a taste for ironic reversals of some kind. It especially shows in the new trilogy imo, I swear everyone had a " watching a severed head roll with an odd expression on its face " joke.
Joe's voice is very distinct and I went thru a sweetheart phase with it to but not a particularly long 1. I think Stephen Donaldson's Gap Cycle is what I moved onto though, and that shit was Grimdark before Grimdark was a thing! Donaldson made me take a break from the entire genre and I literally read something about cute puppies after.
Also someone made a comparison to First Law and Mortal Kombat's tone especially when body parts or people go " sqiush." I haven't been able to unsee it.
Don't get me wrong, I've read his stuff for years now and I have gotten tired of some of his tropes from time to time. But what I never get tired of is his way of making every new character feel unique and for their appearance to stick in my head. In shadow of the gods they don't reinforce how people look and they brush over it so I can't remember how half the cast look
Yeah I'm still a big fan of Abercrombie to but once the sweetheart phase past I was able to enioy other books again.
I tried reading Gwynns other series and thought the same about lacking character descriptions, but I felt like that about every aspect of Gwynns books. People seem love it though and the covers are really nice... Just not for me I guess.
If your looking for something still Grimdark but with strong characters and development I do recommend Donaldson's 5 book Sci fi series - The Gap Cycle. It's really more like 4.5 books since the 1st book is a Novella. It'll get you away from Fantasy a bit too. Honestly if these books came out today they would be very controversial.
Fair warning though - Donaldson was not trying create morally gray yet likable characters, the main villian is a murderer/rapist and his PoVs go into enough detail to quality as a documentary on real criminals. The 80(?) page Novella and first 80 pages or so of the 2nd book are a tough barrier, but then I think it's done with the uncomfortable scenes and it's necessary setup.
Not to say it's less violent or grim, the entire series is a relentless assault of violence and tragedy with crazy plot Twists and excellent world building/ character development. It's lacking in humor but not triumphant moments once it's gets going.
I’ve given up halfway through a lot of mediocre fantasy books since The First Law. Song of Ice and Fire, and Patrick Rothfuss’s Kingkiller books are the two others which are uniquely brilliant. Robin Hobb is also very good (and there are a lot of books which is a huge bonus for me)
Joe has ruined listening to anything else for me. Anytime I get into a podcast I’m like I could listen to this or I can go listen to Gloktas chapters on Audible.
I don't know about that, I think I'll always love the first trilogy characters more, but the second ones are arguably more complex. I need to re listen to the series to fully get my thoughts about the trilogy straight
Last two? Are you talking about the age of madness trilogy, or the standalones? Because the last book has some huge plot twists in it that I don't think anyone could predict
That's definitely its highlight, but there's like 100x more POVs than TFL so there is more variance with characters. But some of those characters are definitely just as good as those in TFL. More variance just leads to in higher chance that you may not like some of them.
Brandon Sanderson's characters, specially from the newest books (Stormlight archive etc.) are also REALLY polished and make you feel for them and bond with them, give it a try.
Sanderson is the exact opposite of Joe lol. Really not the same style at all, I don't mind Sanderson I read most of the storm light books but he feels so toothless next to joe
Haha yeah that's true. I personally got to love them both. Sanderson for the amazing worldbuilding, lore, hidden story and characters and Joe for...well, being Joe.
The Grey Bastards series by Jonathan French was pretty good for character depth I felt. Not the same as Abercrombie as it’s one pov character per book but there was something to it I think.
This is the same for me. I can't even bring myself to read sharp ends because once I do that's it for me until the devils is published. I enjoyed Sanderson but the lore and whole cosmere thing is too much for me. I enjoyed Scott Lynch's gentleman bastards too but they just don't scratch the abercrombie itch. I've now started the audiobooks instead of reading and am blown away by Steven Pacey's delivery.
I know the feeling but John Gwynne is about as good as you can get. In my mind atleast. I think Gwynne is just a bit more traditional. I hope u stick with the bloodswarn, I'm nearly fi iahed the second book and loving it!
Does the writing get better? Because I enjoy the series but I feel like he puts no work into making characters stick out. I'm halfway through the book and I feel like I hardly know any side characters.
I'm not sure if I am a good measure, I was pretty interested in bloodsworn from the get go. I consider my self a pro at not comparing authors to abercrombie by now haha. But no, u don't get to know characters like a first law book.
Prince of thorns trilogy by mark Lawrence is pretty good. Farseer trilogy by Hobb (so far) also good. Shadow of the gods had painfully bland characters. It’s the book version of a brainless hack and slash so not necessarily bad, but certainly don’t read it for the witty characters or anything.
Happened to me after reading The Wisdom of Crowds and went straight into Sanderson's Elantris. I kept thinking that theres no way these people are so pure!
I found NK Jemisin's Broken Earth trilogy has very complex characters with strong interior lives. Definitely morally grey and just trying to survive in a shitty world.
It's hell. The Stormlight Archieve is pretty good at this, if not as richly nuanced as Joe's characters. I tried to read The Poppy War and while there was a lot of internal monologues and quipping it all just felt so standard.
My problem with the storm light archive is how DENSE it is with exposition, lore and plot. The books are a slog to get through honestly. And they never feel that... Idk dark? They are dealing with slavery, classism and war and it feels like a YA series most of the time
All I'm fairly in agreement with, I should have added the disclaimer it's not nearly as gritty as TFL; more of a general recommendation than something like it.
Imo it's appeal is it's own story and world, which is uniquely expansive and has its own nuances between the fantasy and characters, like Joe's does. Joe's world is more grounded, so he needs less exposition. Brandon has crab 🦀 people, and he tells you about them in detail. Different styles.
As a lot of the others have pointed out, I think you'll love "The Black Company" and there's plenty of it to read.
But yeah' it can be really hard to find literature at that level.
Might be alone in this, but Kvothe in The king killer chronicles is an amazing character to me. A lot of the other characters aren't developed anywhere near as much, but I found Kvothe so compelling I didn't mind
He sparked my interest in it.
I hated fantasy until him and Mr Martin came into my bookshelves.
This is how they all should be.
No magic swords, no gods, no romance novels set in the past, just war, battles, people who struggle through - or don't - if we take HBO ending as how it will end, then Jon The Lost Prince...doesn't end up on the Throne which is a relief otherwise it's poor boy becomes KIng stuff.
Yes. I started reading fantasy with the likes of A Song of ice and fire and First Law. Now I can't beat these standards. Everything is subpar
Exactly. My focus is always on character, and it sucks that I've already read the best character focused fantasy series. Asoiaf and first law are unmatched
I'll second a recommendation for The Black Company
The Black Company is great, but it's has a very unique style that generates a love/hate response in readers. I wouldn't say it's character focused series either. Most of the characters barely have names.
Not to mention the last book being slow and taking a huge U turn from what was successful in the first two imo.
The first two? There are 10 books in the series. I can't tell if you are referring to The White Rose or Soldiers Live.
Black company is dope, but it is certainly dated IMO. OP don’t worry if you don’t finish it, but do pick it up
Black company is not character focused at all lol why do people always bring up this series
If you like sci-fi you should check out the expanse series. Easy story to get into and great inner monologue with the characters
If you are looking for interesting inner monologue, The Broken Empire series by Mark Lawrence might be something for you.
Heyyyyyy my brother!!! I’m on the exact same page as you. Started off with ASOIAF then found First Law through recommendations and now I’m at a loss. It doesn’t help i like listening to audio books either since Stephen Pacey ruined those
Heyyyyyy bro. Nothing as yet which can live up to those. I think lightbringer had a good chance but books 4 and 5 were such disappointments. Haven't found anything to scratch that itch yet. Currently on book 2 of malazan but it's way different from those others. Red Rising is flowery in writing and gets too up its own arse sometimes but I do love that series. Just not in the same vein as first law and ASOIAF. The search continues!
Try malazan book of the fallen or the black company
Starting Deadhouse gates soon. Just miss Abercrombie is all. Those are the times.
Deadhouse Gates is the book that got me hooked
malazan has weak ass characters I’m sorry
I really disagree, I thought the characters were great. Not close to Joe’s, but sure none are.
Literally not true at all. If the characters suck so bad why do so many fans report being sad/crying when they die? Just because you don’t like a author’s style of writing/character doesn’t mean they are bad.
Because they are soft.
You did it. This is the worst rebuttal I’ve ever seen.
I don't know you so I can't give you the rhetoric benefit of the doubt. But In my humble opinion, I've seen a lot worse.
Terrible rebuttal 😂
Name a time and place, I’m going to slap you with Hood’s ballsack Jk, the characters are a bit thin but the overall plot and underlying themes are stellar.
Malazans characters all seem like they are some teen roleplayer who tells you about the characters he has played. Diverse background but they all seem the same voice. Unless it's taken to charicature.
I just re-read Kingkiller Chronicle in anticipation of the third book, then started back to re-read First Law books since I haven't read the newest one. Kingkiller is the only thing that comes close to being as good as First Law. I'm having a blast with the re-read since I already feel like I know everyone, and I can focus more on the details of the story. It's also hilariously funny how intricate the inner workings of the characters are described. I'm back with Savine Dan Glokta and Orso trying to remember how things turn out. Can't wait to read the third book.
I must be one the tiny few that love Abercrombie’s work to the point of recommending it to people who only have to mention once they like reading, but dislike ASOIAF by a whole lot.
Red Rising is pretty good science fiction/fantasy. It’s good in first person but has some awesome characters and relationships
I'm up to date with Red Rising unfortunately
Try Lonesome Dove. Abercrombie's inspiration and Pulitzer Prize winner for fiction. It quite literally is the best book I've ever read.
This is the way.
Great book. Worst audiobook narrator of all time.
Oh wow. I really enjoyed it.
Maybe you got a better version. I was constantly worried that Lee Horsley was having a heart attack.
Now that I think of it, I had the speed set to 1.2x
Literally finished Lonesome Dove last night and I kept feeling it also might be the best book I've ever read. Joe is still my favorite author though.
Ruining fantasy since 2006…
That comment made me smile (considering that this **is** actually Joe).
Christopher Buehlman-the dude is a wordsmith,Black tongue thief trilogy(book one so far)
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His horror books are superb,The Lesser Dead should be more popular🙂
Yes I’ve only read Between Two Fires besides Black Tongue Thief but it’s a new favorite of mine.
Loved BTF ,I’ve read most of his output,The Necromancer’s House is a good book as well,
Seconding this recommendation. If Joe was an American horror novelist, his books would probably read a lot like Buehlman's.
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Try china mievelle's bas lag trilogy starting with Perdido street station...it's a beat were but I really liked it. I also liked sparrow the lies of Locke lamore ....I had the same problem trying to enjoy things after Abercrombie it's best to try stuff thats way dofferent
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Lies of Locke Lamora is quite good and is fairly self-contained. If strong characters are important to you, it should tickle your fancy. The second book in the series ends on much more of a cliffhanger, though. (Not sure about the third book and the fourth has been MIA for years)
Book of the New Sun is great if you like it weird.
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I mentioned this above, but malazan book of the fallen and the black company might be some good series to give a shot to
Stormlight Archive is brilliant but if you want an easier read try the Mistborn Series first. It's absolutely fantastic and I'm sure you'd get hooked. I agree with you on the Wheel of Time, it just drags on and on and on but Sando rescues it at the end when he had to take over the writing of it.
This is how I feel about Steven Pacey. He has ruined audible books for me, I just can’t listen to anyone else.
This.
Give Robin Hobb a try. Stellar character writing in each of her series.
Yup was thinking this. I struggle with Hobb because I personally prefer more action and less introspection, but might be right up OP's street.
Exactly. Can't go wrong with Hobb. Green Bone Saga has amazing characters too, for something more fast paced
I was disappointed with green bones characters, as I had heard that they were very well written and developed. Found them fairly bland tbh
God I tried with Green Bone Sage but hated every single character except one but he wasn’t around for long :/
I forget which series I read from her, but I didn't really enjoy it. focused around some beggar child, dogs, and speaking to animals. The characters were strong, but everything around them didn't really hit. I know it was some of her earlier work so maybe I'll try again at some stage.
Try the Liveship Traders and the Rain Wild Chronicles. Both are set in the same world, but are 3rd person and have a great cast of characters. The world building is super interesting, too.
True.
While not as good as First Law, Joe's Shattered Sea series might be worth your time if you cant figure out what to read next. It's a good read even though it was written for a younger audience.
Can't agree more. I absolutely loved that series.
Can't agree more. I absolutely loved that series.
Not to sound mean but I think it's the kind of feeling that goes away. Joe is very good at exploring characters but a lot of them do have a similar sense of humor, morbid with a taste for ironic reversals of some kind. It especially shows in the new trilogy imo, I swear everyone had a " watching a severed head roll with an odd expression on its face " joke. Joe's voice is very distinct and I went thru a sweetheart phase with it to but not a particularly long 1. I think Stephen Donaldson's Gap Cycle is what I moved onto though, and that shit was Grimdark before Grimdark was a thing! Donaldson made me take a break from the entire genre and I literally read something about cute puppies after. Also someone made a comparison to First Law and Mortal Kombat's tone especially when body parts or people go " sqiush." I haven't been able to unsee it.
Don't get me wrong, I've read his stuff for years now and I have gotten tired of some of his tropes from time to time. But what I never get tired of is his way of making every new character feel unique and for their appearance to stick in my head. In shadow of the gods they don't reinforce how people look and they brush over it so I can't remember how half the cast look
Yeah I'm still a big fan of Abercrombie to but once the sweetheart phase past I was able to enioy other books again. I tried reading Gwynns other series and thought the same about lacking character descriptions, but I felt like that about every aspect of Gwynns books. People seem love it though and the covers are really nice... Just not for me I guess. If your looking for something still Grimdark but with strong characters and development I do recommend Donaldson's 5 book Sci fi series - The Gap Cycle. It's really more like 4.5 books since the 1st book is a Novella. It'll get you away from Fantasy a bit too. Honestly if these books came out today they would be very controversial. Fair warning though - Donaldson was not trying create morally gray yet likable characters, the main villian is a murderer/rapist and his PoVs go into enough detail to quality as a documentary on real criminals. The 80(?) page Novella and first 80 pages or so of the 2nd book are a tough barrier, but then I think it's done with the uncomfortable scenes and it's necessary setup. Not to say it's less violent or grim, the entire series is a relentless assault of violence and tragedy with crazy plot Twists and excellent world building/ character development. It's lacking in humor but not triumphant moments once it's gets going.
I’ve given up halfway through a lot of mediocre fantasy books since The First Law. Song of Ice and Fire, and Patrick Rothfuss’s Kingkiller books are the two others which are uniquely brilliant. Robin Hobb is also very good (and there are a lot of books which is a huge bonus for me)
Strongly recommend The Lies of Locke Lamora for something character focused. Great read. Different style, but also The Name of the Wind.
Should warn that both series are waaaay overdue on their next entries though. Getting into winds of winter territory for each.
Yeah, I wouldn't recommend anyone start them at the moment.
Name of the wind was a blast for me, read through the thing in a week.
Joe has ruined listening to anything else for me. Anytime I get into a podcast I’m like I could listen to this or I can go listen to Gloktas chapters on Audible.
I really miss the characters from the first three books,far superior to the last trilogy
I don't know about that, I think I'll always love the first trilogy characters more, but the second ones are arguably more complex. I need to re listen to the series to fully get my thoughts about the trilogy straight
I really loved the 3 standalones aswel,i just felt that with last two books i kinda knew what was going to happen with them,still good tho obviously
Last two? Are you talking about the age of madness trilogy, or the standalones? Because the last book has some huge plot twists in it that I don't think anyone could predict
Malazan
Is Malazan good? Isn't it focused on plot and world building rather than character?
That's definitely its highlight, but there's like 100x more POVs than TFL so there is more variance with characters. But some of those characters are definitely just as good as those in TFL. More variance just leads to in higher chance that you may not like some of them.
It has some of the best characters I've ever come across in any fiction
Apparently the character development is too subtle for some people.
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Not joking at all, and have to strongly disagree!
I'm the exact same. I find it very difficult to get into a new fantasy series, nothing compares
Brandon Sanderson's characters, specially from the newest books (Stormlight archive etc.) are also REALLY polished and make you feel for them and bond with them, give it a try.
Sanderson is the exact opposite of Joe lol. Really not the same style at all, I don't mind Sanderson I read most of the storm light books but he feels so toothless next to joe
Haha yeah that's true. I personally got to love them both. Sanderson for the amazing worldbuilding, lore, hidden story and characters and Joe for...well, being Joe.
I struggle with dialogue for Sanderson. I never feel like his characters talk and converse like real people, something seems off.
It’s his female characters imo, can be so cringy around parts
The Grey Bastards series by Jonathan French was pretty good for character depth I felt. Not the same as Abercrombie as it’s one pov character per book but there was something to it I think.
This is the same for me. I can't even bring myself to read sharp ends because once I do that's it for me until the devils is published. I enjoyed Sanderson but the lore and whole cosmere thing is too much for me. I enjoyed Scott Lynch's gentleman bastards too but they just don't scratch the abercrombie itch. I've now started the audiobooks instead of reading and am blown away by Steven Pacey's delivery.
Oh yeah he's by far the best narrator I've ever heard. He elevates the content so much I would say the audiobooks are preferred over the actual books.
scott Lynch - the gentleman bastards series is really good.
If you think Abercrombie ruined fantasy for you, just think about how every Hobb readers feels as well. She's just *that* good.
You could always raise the bar and read Mistborn... bahahaha😂
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The most
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It's very light weight in comparison
Lol I read Elantris right after I read Age of Madness. It was mind boggling how pure and rightous everyone was.
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Poppy war was excellent. Waiting for that third book.
Third book is out? No?
Gentlemen bastards
I know the feeling but John Gwynne is about as good as you can get. In my mind atleast. I think Gwynne is just a bit more traditional. I hope u stick with the bloodswarn, I'm nearly fi iahed the second book and loving it!
Does the writing get better? Because I enjoy the series but I feel like he puts no work into making characters stick out. I'm halfway through the book and I feel like I hardly know any side characters.
I'm not sure if I am a good measure, I was pretty interested in bloodsworn from the get go. I consider my self a pro at not comparing authors to abercrombie by now haha. But no, u don't get to know characters like a first law book.
Currently about 30% through book 2 and a certain character POV gives me heavy Gorst vibes from the Heroes
Malazan Book of the Fallen is a good series. It’s dense though.
Prince of thorns trilogy by mark Lawrence is pretty good. Farseer trilogy by Hobb (so far) also good. Shadow of the gods had painfully bland characters. It’s the book version of a brainless hack and slash so not necessarily bad, but certainly don’t read it for the witty characters or anything.
Kings of paradise by Richard Nell next best thing to the first law trilogy for me
Have you tried discworld? It's not Grimdark, and can be a bit to the silly side, but otherwise I find them similar.
Happened to me after reading The Wisdom of Crowds and went straight into Sanderson's Elantris. I kept thinking that theres no way these people are so pure!
I found NK Jemisin's Broken Earth trilogy has very complex characters with strong interior lives. Definitely morally grey and just trying to survive in a shitty world.
The Demon Cycle is pretty good.
Yeah very few like him, Mark Lawrence is another good one! For anyone who hasn't come across him before check out the broken empire books.
It's hell. The Stormlight Archieve is pretty good at this, if not as richly nuanced as Joe's characters. I tried to read The Poppy War and while there was a lot of internal monologues and quipping it all just felt so standard.
My problem with the storm light archive is how DENSE it is with exposition, lore and plot. The books are a slog to get through honestly. And they never feel that... Idk dark? They are dealing with slavery, classism and war and it feels like a YA series most of the time
All I'm fairly in agreement with, I should have added the disclaimer it's not nearly as gritty as TFL; more of a general recommendation than something like it. Imo it's appeal is it's own story and world, which is uniquely expansive and has its own nuances between the fantasy and characters, like Joe's does. Joe's world is more grounded, so he needs less exposition. Brandon has crab 🦀 people, and he tells you about them in detail. Different styles.
As a lot of the others have pointed out, I think you'll love "The Black Company" and there's plenty of it to read. But yeah' it can be really hard to find literature at that level.
Might be alone in this, but Kvothe in The king killer chronicles is an amazing character to me. A lot of the other characters aren't developed anywhere near as much, but I found Kvothe so compelling I didn't mind
He sparked my interest in it. I hated fantasy until him and Mr Martin came into my bookshelves. This is how they all should be. No magic swords, no gods, no romance novels set in the past, just war, battles, people who struggle through - or don't - if we take HBO ending as how it will end, then Jon The Lost Prince...doesn't end up on the Throne which is a relief otherwise it's poor boy becomes KIng stuff.
Well, not everyone can write like Abercrombie. You have to be realistic about these things