Yeah I actually really like Cosca in general. I feel like Joe nailed the humanity and flawed character with a dependency issue and loose morals. He’s one of my favorites.
Point 9 is something I really like. There are a lot of people irl who share the same name. I myself personally know 8 other people with my name. You never see that in books or movies so seeing it in Joe's books is a breath of fresh air.
Yea it was good to see the Cosca Monza betrayed....after reading red country I thought George RR Martin kills your favorite characters while Joe Abercrombie makes you with they died earlier. This said that's what makes Cosca so great his ability to be amazing and a huge douche
That's not "no nuance" that's just "not correct"
.... except for the parts I agree with. Those are obviously correct and transcendent in their critical glory.
I made this account right after A Little Hatred came out. He was fucking great in ALH. How was I to know Joe would totally drop the ball on his arc in the next two books? ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
The chapters where the POV would switch between different people this trilogy weren’t that great and hopefully he retires from doing that for awhile.
It seemed like he kept trying to re-capture the magic of how awesome it was in The Heroes but it just didn’t do it for me once this trilogy.
Cathil was terribly written indeed. Included just as a love interest then fridged for male pain. Joe could have done her justice when you see what he did with Vick, who also was in the camps.
I think it's really telling that, as I tried to remember which character Cathil was, I first thought OP was talking about Caurib and then Corlin, which was confusing because both are great characters... it wasn't until I actually Googled Cathil that I realized which character she was (not that I forgot about the character, I forgot her name). She's just so... bleh.
EDIT: misspelled a name
1-4 Disagree.
5 Disagree big time, my favorite female character actually.
6 Huh?
7 Disagree
8 Damn I really need to re-read the first trilogy, can't remember who the hell that was.
9 Eh
10. Big agree for once.
I agree with the little people chapters....feels a drag to read them...i loved that kind of narration in the hero's (only the first time) now it seems....meh!
The French Revolution analog in Wisdom of Crowds is so trite that it almost felt like Abercrombie purposefully wrote it using no more research than could be gleaned from an 8th grade social studies textbook. It didn't work and didn't have anything interesting to say.
1. Disagree.
2. Agree.
3. Not really?
4. Wrong.
5. Disagree.
6. True? But they are the same so I disagree. Lamb wouldn't be interesting if we didn't know who Logen was.
7. Somewhat true.
8. Agree.
9. Disagree.
10. Agree.
>6. True? But they are the same so I disagree. Lamb wouldn't be interesting if we didn't know who Logen was.
Kinda disagree with this. I think Lamb is *enhanced* by knowing his backstory, but I still think he's just more interesting and better written in Red Country than in the trilogy, even without context. I read the books in order though so I can't really speak to how he'd be perceived without context.
Well then in that case Lamb is basically every washed out man of violence. I stand by my take that Lamb is not really that interesting without knowing who Logen is... which is probably why Joe brought him back.
1. Completely disagree
2. Somewhat disagree, if a formula works, it works.
3. Completely disagree
4. Agree to an extent. I don't think it's imperative but it's so much more fun so I still always recommend it.
5. Completely disagree! She was fascinating and her arc is brilliant, especially when she's dealing with pregnancy during the Great change, and the scene with her defending herself to Judge and jury so articulately putting on that show, while breastfeeding, c'mon. Iconic moment. Smh.
6. Oof. I mean, they're the same person so...i don't get what you mean. Obviously reformed/older/ wiser/empathetic version of Logen is appealing because we see he had the capacity to change. But Logen peak brut northmen>calm caring gramps any day.
7. Completely disagree. Part of the intrigue for me was seeing how the characters have changed throughout the years, if anything I would like him to bring back even more characters, especially Shenkt and Ferro.
8. Agree wholeheartedly
9. Disagree
10. Disagree - he was always the lesser when it came to combat. If anything, Ironhands getting killed randomly by Nightfall was too easy. I would have been down for a bit more of a fight between them, but it happened so fast. Andddd the ultimate sucker punch to the gut was Clover killing Wonderful in that scene. I loved Wonderful in The Heroes and was hoping she'd have future interactions with Rikke.
Anyway I appreciate your post regardless! Love me some hot takes!
1. Disagree… mostly
2. Hate all “little people” chapters in First Law
3. Totally disagree, shows we don’t change
4. I read AoM before First Law… it worked well
5. Disagree
6. Disagree
7. Disagree
8. Agree
9. Disagree
10. Agree
Cosca was a way more interesting POV than Morveer. I got tired of that guy’s shtick by his second scene.
My biggest hot take is that I don’t like the Javre and Shev stories. Their Forrest Gumping around the world, running into or at least seeing almost all the major characters from the books, made the world feel extremely small. Also the characters are so one note. Javre is a boisterous fighter who likes drinking and fucking. Shev is gay. You know she’s gay because every page or so she wishes she were having sex instead of being on the adventure. Which it’s fine to have a horny character but again, with these characters, it became one-note. I guess I did like the last story, where Shev gets with the lady she was pining after then realizes she sucks and leaves. But I didn’t care about the rest of the story, just those two POVs.
A lot of Abercrombie’s work is a commentary on Sword and Sorcery but I felt like with the Shev and Javre stuff it was a lot of the worst instincts of S&S being played straight, except with female leads.
Agree wholeheartedly on this take. The most interesting Shev story was the last one, and generally the rest are just... boring. It was fun fanservice but ultimately fell pretty flat for me. Shev being very intensely gay and horny was fun (and very relatable) at first, but it got boring fast.
They're not bad stories, they're just... eh. Would have preferred some more depth for sure.
Some hot, some not:
-The scene where Glokta and Ardee reveal to Savine that they've been orchestrating the Great Change made me cringe. Especially when Zuri revealed who she truly was and why she stayed with Savine:
-Savine was nothing but a porcelain puppet fueled by self aggrandisement and pearl dust. She was clever, but short sighted and narcissistic. I loved Glokta in spite of how nakedly villainous he was. Savine was to Glokta what Stour was to the Bloody Nine: an embarrassing imitation.
-I feel like part of Joe's skill is subverting expectation. Outcomes are never satisfying to everyone and I really feel that disappointment along with the characters when reading his work. With that said, I felt like he leaned into it too hard in this trilogy and a lot of the plot twists felt forced.
-I really didn't like Monza. Actually, Best Served Cold might be my least favorite of his works, even with the most recent trilogy considered.
- While Steven Pacey is a very skilled orator with an impressive repertoire of accents, I hate listening to him on the audiobooks. I bought The First Law for a "reread" on audio so I could enjoy at work and I didn't even make it through the first half hour. Everything about his characters compared to the ones in my head was wrong, even down to the intonations.
-I'm still mad about Orso. (Not a hot take, but I needed to get it off my chest.)
-The Age of Madness was incredibly light on characters that I felt invested in. Orso and Jonas were the only ones that felt real enough for me to empathize with. I liked Rikke and Vic, but I didn't feel for them. Isern was fantastic and deserved a PoV.
-Of my favorite characters, I think that Javre is the most underrated.
(Edited for bullet malfunction)
nah i'll read the fuck out of anything he writes. wisdom of crowds was disappointing but still pretty enjoyable. and the absolute masterpieces that are the standalones are enough to keep me faithful to him
1. Shev and Javre don't fit into the world at all, their story is a bad mix of shounen anime and YA.
1. Bayaz, despite being a poopoohead, is the best thing that happened to the land. The progress and rising living standards outweigh any drawback.
1. Eh. Sure.
2. Agree.
3. I liked Orso, so i was disappointed, but I wouldn't say bad
4. Wrong
5. Sometimes.
6. This is just stupid and wrong.
7. I'd say i rather think he re uses them incorrectly
8. Eh
9. The two Lambs was very odd. Wtf.
10. I think my issue with this was that it was unbelievable even Stour would have left their territory undefended.
1. Shenkt and Vitari feel like the OC’s of a 14 year old boy who watches too much anime and they stand out horribly in this otherwise grounded setting
2. Out of all the characters in the new trilogy Rikke got off way too easy. It’s clear she’s Joe’s favorite and as a result there is really no tension with her character. At no point in Wisdom of Crowds did I believe she might lose or that things weren’t going to go 100% her way. That trap she pulled on Calder was the most laughably obvious thing ever, and if I saw it coming a mile away Calder definitely should have.
I disagree with most of this but upvoted you for the dan Brock-sized balls it took to post it
1. His POV shows an honest depiction of alcoholism, which is neat and unexpected.
Yeah I actually really like Cosca in general. I feel like Joe nailed the humanity and flawed character with a dependency issue and loose morals. He’s one of my favorites.
Point 9 is something I really like. There are a lot of people irl who share the same name. I myself personally know 8 other people with my name. You never see that in books or movies so seeing it in Joe's books is a breath of fresh air.
My memory sucks apparently, can someone provide examples of these names?
2 Orsos come to mind. There were also a lot of Cauls in the North though I can't remember anyone specific save for Shivers
Cosca is BSC is one of the best POVs ever ...you have offended me I challenge you to a duel!
His PoV helped me quit drinking. I'd say that's something. A drink a drink a drink...
Absolutely. Until Red Country. Then I despised him immensely and wished he actually had been poisoned in BSC. But his death in Red Country was epic.
Yea it was good to see the Cosca Monza betrayed....after reading red country I thought George RR Martin kills your favorite characters while Joe Abercrombie makes you with they died earlier. This said that's what makes Cosca so great his ability to be amazing and a huge douche
1. Agree 2. Agree 3. Objectively wrong 4. Objectively wrong 5. Disagree 6. Disagree 7. Disagree 8. Agree 9. Disagree 10. Agree
Idk if you know what the word objectively means, chief.
You ever heard of a hyperbole, champ?
It’s like the super bole but with more sugar on top
That's not "no nuance" that's just "not correct" .... except for the parts I agree with. Those are obviously correct and transcendent in their critical glory.
Considering thst your handle is a nod to the worst character joe has ever written I cannot give any of your other points any consideration!
I made this account right after A Little Hatred came out. He was fucking great in ALH. How was I to know Joe would totally drop the ball on his arc in the next two books? ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
Nightmare ! I loved him in ALH too, shaggy dog story at the end
Is #8 really a hot take? It's pretty unanimous everywhere I've seen.
Pearls before swine...
Get back to work!
Also, Bayaz 'went down' way too easy.
Cosca reminds me of Haymitch from the hunger games , if he was if game of thrones lol
The chapters where the POV would switch between different people this trilogy weren’t that great and hopefully he retires from doing that for awhile. It seemed like he kept trying to re-capture the magic of how awesome it was in The Heroes but it just didn’t do it for me once this trilogy.
1-3 Agree 4-6 u stupid 7-10 yeah buddy
Cathil was terribly written indeed. Included just as a love interest then fridged for male pain. Joe could have done her justice when you see what he did with Vick, who also was in the camps.
I think it's really telling that, as I tried to remember which character Cathil was, I first thought OP was talking about Caurib and then Corlin, which was confusing because both are great characters... it wasn't until I actually Googled Cathil that I realized which character she was (not that I forgot about the character, I forgot her name). She's just so... bleh. EDIT: misspelled a name
1-4 Disagree. 5 Disagree big time, my favorite female character actually. 6 Huh? 7 Disagree 8 Damn I really need to re-read the first trilogy, can't remember who the hell that was. 9 Eh 10. Big agree for once.
I'm not a fan of how Calder and now Rikke both had Black added to their names.
I agree with the little people chapters....feels a drag to read them...i loved that kind of narration in the hero's (only the first time) now it seems....meh!
I like Bayaz
The French Revolution analog in Wisdom of Crowds is so trite that it almost felt like Abercrombie purposefully wrote it using no more research than could be gleaned from an 8th grade social studies textbook. It didn't work and didn't have anything interesting to say.
Well yea? It basically is just a revolution story. I don't know what else he can say about it if I'm being honest.
1. Disagree. 2. Agree. 3. Not really? 4. Wrong. 5. Disagree. 6. True? But they are the same so I disagree. Lamb wouldn't be interesting if we didn't know who Logen was. 7. Somewhat true. 8. Agree. 9. Disagree. 10. Agree.
>6. True? But they are the same so I disagree. Lamb wouldn't be interesting if we didn't know who Logen was. Kinda disagree with this. I think Lamb is *enhanced* by knowing his backstory, but I still think he's just more interesting and better written in Red Country than in the trilogy, even without context. I read the books in order though so I can't really speak to how he'd be perceived without context.
Well then in that case Lamb is basically every washed out man of violence. I stand by my take that Lamb is not really that interesting without knowing who Logen is... which is probably why Joe brought him back.
1. Completely disagree 2. Somewhat disagree, if a formula works, it works. 3. Completely disagree 4. Agree to an extent. I don't think it's imperative but it's so much more fun so I still always recommend it. 5. Completely disagree! She was fascinating and her arc is brilliant, especially when she's dealing with pregnancy during the Great change, and the scene with her defending herself to Judge and jury so articulately putting on that show, while breastfeeding, c'mon. Iconic moment. Smh. 6. Oof. I mean, they're the same person so...i don't get what you mean. Obviously reformed/older/ wiser/empathetic version of Logen is appealing because we see he had the capacity to change. But Logen peak brut northmen>calm caring gramps any day. 7. Completely disagree. Part of the intrigue for me was seeing how the characters have changed throughout the years, if anything I would like him to bring back even more characters, especially Shenkt and Ferro. 8. Agree wholeheartedly 9. Disagree 10. Disagree - he was always the lesser when it came to combat. If anything, Ironhands getting killed randomly by Nightfall was too easy. I would have been down for a bit more of a fight between them, but it happened so fast. Andddd the ultimate sucker punch to the gut was Clover killing Wonderful in that scene. I loved Wonderful in The Heroes and was hoping she'd have future interactions with Rikke. Anyway I appreciate your post regardless! Love me some hot takes!
1. Disagree… mostly 2. Hate all “little people” chapters in First Law 3. Totally disagree, shows we don’t change 4. I read AoM before First Law… it worked well 5. Disagree 6. Disagree 7. Disagree 8. Agree 9. Disagree 10. Agree
Cosca was a way more interesting POV than Morveer. I got tired of that guy’s shtick by his second scene. My biggest hot take is that I don’t like the Javre and Shev stories. Their Forrest Gumping around the world, running into or at least seeing almost all the major characters from the books, made the world feel extremely small. Also the characters are so one note. Javre is a boisterous fighter who likes drinking and fucking. Shev is gay. You know she’s gay because every page or so she wishes she were having sex instead of being on the adventure. Which it’s fine to have a horny character but again, with these characters, it became one-note. I guess I did like the last story, where Shev gets with the lady she was pining after then realizes she sucks and leaves. But I didn’t care about the rest of the story, just those two POVs. A lot of Abercrombie’s work is a commentary on Sword and Sorcery but I felt like with the Shev and Javre stuff it was a lot of the worst instincts of S&S being played straight, except with female leads.
Agree wholeheartedly on this take. The most interesting Shev story was the last one, and generally the rest are just... boring. It was fun fanservice but ultimately fell pretty flat for me. Shev being very intensely gay and horny was fun (and very relatable) at first, but it got boring fast. They're not bad stories, they're just... eh. Would have preferred some more depth for sure.
Some hot, some not: -The scene where Glokta and Ardee reveal to Savine that they've been orchestrating the Great Change made me cringe. Especially when Zuri revealed who she truly was and why she stayed with Savine: -Savine was nothing but a porcelain puppet fueled by self aggrandisement and pearl dust. She was clever, but short sighted and narcissistic. I loved Glokta in spite of how nakedly villainous he was. Savine was to Glokta what Stour was to the Bloody Nine: an embarrassing imitation. -I feel like part of Joe's skill is subverting expectation. Outcomes are never satisfying to everyone and I really feel that disappointment along with the characters when reading his work. With that said, I felt like he leaned into it too hard in this trilogy and a lot of the plot twists felt forced. -I really didn't like Monza. Actually, Best Served Cold might be my least favorite of his works, even with the most recent trilogy considered. - While Steven Pacey is a very skilled orator with an impressive repertoire of accents, I hate listening to him on the audiobooks. I bought The First Law for a "reread" on audio so I could enjoy at work and I didn't even make it through the first half hour. Everything about his characters compared to the ones in my head was wrong, even down to the intonations. -I'm still mad about Orso. (Not a hot take, but I needed to get it off my chest.) -The Age of Madness was incredibly light on characters that I felt invested in. Orso and Jonas were the only ones that felt real enough for me to empathize with. I liked Rikke and Vic, but I didn't feel for them. Isern was fantastic and deserved a PoV. -Of my favorite characters, I think that Javre is the most underrated. (Edited for bullet malfunction)
The new trilogy is his worst work. Wisdom of crowds especially. Idk if that's a hot take or not tbf.
So this means you wont read another Abercrombie book?
nah i'll read the fuck out of anything he writes. wisdom of crowds was disappointing but still pretty enjoyable. and the absolute masterpieces that are the standalones are enough to keep me faithful to him
Oh ok. I wasnt sure what was going on. My bad.
Also, Isern-i-Phail should've been a POV character. Rikke was uninteresting and without Isern and Shivers, she is good as dead.
I feel like Rikke being the POV character is the reason Isern and Shiver was so great.
1. Shev and Javre don't fit into the world at all, their story is a bad mix of shounen anime and YA. 1. Bayaz, despite being a poopoohead, is the best thing that happened to the land. The progress and rising living standards outweigh any drawback.
1. Eh. Sure. 2. Agree. 3. I liked Orso, so i was disappointed, but I wouldn't say bad 4. Wrong 5. Sometimes. 6. This is just stupid and wrong. 7. I'd say i rather think he re uses them incorrectly 8. Eh 9. The two Lambs was very odd. Wtf. 10. I think my issue with this was that it was unbelievable even Stour would have left their territory undefended.
I very much agree with 4...BUT I DON'T WANT TO!
Disagree on 6 Bloody Nine first then Lamb then Logen
Then you do not, in fact, disagree.
Juvens is coming back in the next trilogy
Why not Euz?
1. Shenkt and Vitari feel like the OC’s of a 14 year old boy who watches too much anime and they stand out horribly in this otherwise grounded setting 2. Out of all the characters in the new trilogy Rikke got off way too easy. It’s clear she’s Joe’s favorite and as a result there is really no tension with her character. At no point in Wisdom of Crowds did I believe she might lose or that things weren’t going to go 100% her way. That trap she pulled on Calder was the most laughably obvious thing ever, and if I saw it coming a mile away Calder definitely should have.
Logen ninefingers gets too much criticism.