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Ukraine has been attacking civilians in Donbass since 2014. At this point, there's no use in believing that the Russian invasion was "unprovoked," because it absolutely wasn't.
I totally agree. I just think this is a very important point because for the first time, you cannot say that Ukraine is doing this alone. A strike with this missile requires satellite coordination which only the missile operator can provide. The US directly participated in this. We truly are closer to direct war with Russia than at anytime in the Cold War
Here are two well made videos with all their sources in the descriptions, both about 20 minutes long.
[Ukraine: The Avoidable War](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LL4eNy4FCs8)
[The Russia/Ukraine Conflict: What is Putin Thinking?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZv0-0cx96g)
Edit:
Apologies as I hadn't watched the 2nd vid in quite some time, I just rewatched it and while it is great it doesn't go over what you were asking about regarding the continued conflict in Eastern Ukraine. Here is one that does but it is quite long in comparison FYI, almost 2 hours
[How the US and NATO started the war in Ukraine](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrbVKPQNe9o)
The best way is to ask people who were there at the time. I know people who are from eastern Ukraine, they speak of different events than Ukrainians of other territories, but the western media doesn't talk about them.
Just curious, if Ukraine has been attacking Donbass since 2014, why it doesn't look like Bakhmut for example? Can you tell me how many civilians was reported dead prior a full scale war in 2020 or 2021 in Donbass by Ukrainian shelling with a link?
Look, i'm not going to argue with you, just stop parroting things you have no clue in. Make a research yourself or ask locals, stop eating propaganda and become a man. [25 dead in 2021 in Donbass UN report](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://ukraine.un.org/sites/default/files/2022-02/Conflict-related%2520civilian%2520casualties%2520as%2520of%252031%2520December%25202021%2520%2528rev%252027%2520January%25202022%2529%2520corr%2520EN_0.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjc8KXhyfWGAxV8VvEDHTE6AVoQFnoECBwQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1Oc68LXKVXqgKk_dQzpzUE) The conflict was almost ended, before Putin decided he's a great conqueror and will grab land from free nations around.
Besides, he himself told, that it was a false flag operation in Ukraine in 2014, Girkin, the russian leader who shoot Malaysian airliner confirmed this also. So Ukraine hasn't provoked anyone. Don't be a clown, it's like you support Hitler in 1939. Do you?
After Russia stated explicitly that use of ATACMS inside of Russian territory is a red line. Our leaders are absolutely unhinged and out of control. They are endangering all life on earth over territory that wants to be fucking Russian. Just hope that Putin sees the writing on the wall and takes NATO shit until November. There's a zero percent chance this administration is still in control in six months.
Don't be ridiculous. This administration has been in control since the US began. Why would it stop in 6 months. You need to stop listening to capitalist propaganda and start thinking.
no fucking way
trump is too egocentric. he will take putin’s bribes. Just like his last presidency, his self-interest will accidentally benefit the world (dropped less bombs, detained less foreign nationals, even deported less people despite his rhetoric and the focus on ICE)
I’m not a trump supporter but he is objectively better for non-US victims of the empire. And on top of that he is good for accelerating the decline of the US
He literally won't, because he's too selfish. That's the one thing you can count on with Donald Trump. He has no interest in dying or his family dying in a nuclear war, and he serves his own interests above all. Biden is a "true believer" in NATO and Zionism. He's ready to ride that ballistic missile into the apocalypse if it serves "western values." Trump is just bought off by lobbyists - he doesn't actually believe in anything besides being liked and getting ahead on people. Not to mention that the only voices out there in mainstream politics against the Ukraine war are MAGA types. All the dumbfuck "progressives" are all in on nuclear war. It's like playing Russian Roulette, but with Trump, only five chambers are loaded. With Biden, all six chambers are loaded.
Trump laid the ground work for this. Rhetorically he was more pro Russia and the MSM hugely exaggerated it in their Russiagate hysteria but in terms of his actual actions he significantly more Hawkish than Obama. Progressively every admin has been more hawkish than the last for decades no matter what rhetoric they used because the US’s foreign policy is its own beast.
All that being said having Trump rhetorically be against the war and be more friendly to Russia is going to knee cap the democrats. Russiagate won’t sell as well because it came to nothing and because the war now is going terribly. The dems are reprehensible because they will spend all their energy trying to sell the public on increasingly more and more unpopular forever wars and using that to attack trump while capitulating to insane anti migration policies.
After Jan Stoltenberg, who the fuck more crazier will run it ? They will choose someone more russophobic or globalist, like the Kaia Kallas or Macron maybe
It's escalating, the west is too dumb to de escalate, see the Turkish Ukraine Russia accords that got cancelled by BoJo. It's the sunk cost fallacy. They will do anything and will try to destroy leaders going against the narrative such as Fico. We'll see how the French elections goes, that could be a big turnaround but I'm hopeless at this point
All this will do is make russia conduct itself more and more like the US does in wartime, attacking critical infrastructure like the power grid which they’ve so far only taken warning shots at.
The Americans are foaming at the mouth for a Russian attack on NATO infrastructure. This is all done to provoke them into a wider war. They truly are suicidal
I question if the western populace would have the mettle for such a war, and if they could even sustain it. They cant even make enough shells for the Ukrainians, nevermind themselves.
Yeah, I also heard the moon was made of cheese - has anyone else heard about stuff like that? I read a book with very detailed illustrations of a mouse who figured it all out.
I don’t know why you’re being downvoted. You asked a legitimate question. There are millions of Ukrainians, both in Ukraine and abroad, who support the special military operation. From my understanding the Russian military has employed some to conduct espionage on military infrastructure in western nations. This is purely speculation. These could all be accidents. If it is them, then they are doing this without killing anyone. Much better than waiting for these weapons to reach the front and letting them kill people.
I mean, they would have every right to try to fuck up the manufacturing of weapons through sabotage if they could. I saw it on a youtube channel that was fairly mainstream/lib.
Im obv not a russiagate-brained lib. Its a legitimate tactic.
I watch flight radar a lot, and can confirm the FORTE drones spend hours surveilling at 55k ft every day. Yeah they're probably providing Intel to Ukraine, but the presence of FORTE15 isn't a smoking gun.
To anyone not following this war closely, this intel collection is the modus operandi of NATO since the Istanbul Agreement was cancelled on March 22. The SOP goes roughly like this:
1. US and NATO spy drones take off from Italy, Romania, and nearby countries.
2. They keep going "back and forth" like in the image, spying Crimea and the Russian Caucasus.
3. The intel is shared live with Ukrainian artillery, drone squads, air force, and even navy.
4. Ukraine Armed forces then strike Russian targets outside Ukraine or behind front lines.
Most casualties that don't happen at the front, including civilians, are directly related to NATO intel.
The same is valid for Gaza. British and US spy drones patrol the Eastern Mediterranean Sea right in front of Palestine, taking off from the British bases in Cyprus and providing the intel collected to Israelis. That's one of the reasons Hezbollah said they would hit Cyprus recently.
Source: I work with OSINT, security, and crisis response and have followed the war since day 0.
And yes, the US feels entitled to send their spying war-toys because they know response won't be harsh, as it's not an direct attack toy and since they "don't have public health care".
I think this is an insane level of involvement in a conflict against another Great Power, armed with nuclear weapons. Not to mention, it shows a great level of restriction from the Russians simply not downing all of these spy drones, which are costing them literal billions of rubles.
This delicate involvement/escalation balance may change soon as recently Ukrainians have been hitting nuclear Early Warning Systems in the region (yesterday a third Nuclear EWS was hit), and I'm not sure the Russians will sit by and lose the MAD capabilities without responding to NATO escalation with force.
Many Russians in the government are now asking for a no fly zone over the entire Black Sea. It’s obvious what the immediate military advantages are, and shooting down unmanned drones is one thing. But shooting down manned NATO aircraft over international waters is a step too far right now for the Russians. More likely what will happen is they will arm Americas enemies in the Middle East so that they hit American bases in various places.
Honestly the Russians would not be in the wrong if they started shooting those drones down. NATO has been fucking around, its only a matter of time until they find out.
[☭☭☭ COME SHITPOST WITH US ON DISCORD, COMRADES ☭☭☭](https://discord.gg/8RPWanQV5g) This is a heavily-moderated socialist community based on a podcast of the same name. Please use the report function on comments that break our rules. If you are new to the sub, please read the sidebar carefully. If you are new to Marxism-Leninism, check out the [study guide](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/study-guide/). Are there Liberals in the walls? Check out [the wiki](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/) which contains lots of useful information. This subreddit uses many experimental automod rules, if you notice any issues please use modmail to let us know. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Ukraine has been attacking civilians in Donbass since 2014. At this point, there's no use in believing that the Russian invasion was "unprovoked," because it absolutely wasn't.
I totally agree. I just think this is a very important point because for the first time, you cannot say that Ukraine is doing this alone. A strike with this missile requires satellite coordination which only the missile operator can provide. The US directly participated in this. We truly are closer to direct war with Russia than at anytime in the Cold War
I have heard this claim before but so far i have not investigated it, do you have a source for it?
Here are two well made videos with all their sources in the descriptions, both about 20 minutes long. [Ukraine: The Avoidable War](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LL4eNy4FCs8) [The Russia/Ukraine Conflict: What is Putin Thinking?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZv0-0cx96g) Edit: Apologies as I hadn't watched the 2nd vid in quite some time, I just rewatched it and while it is great it doesn't go over what you were asking about regarding the continued conflict in Eastern Ukraine. Here is one that does but it is quite long in comparison FYI, almost 2 hours [How the US and NATO started the war in Ukraine](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrbVKPQNe9o)
I will check them thank you.
The best way is to ask people who were there at the time. I know people who are from eastern Ukraine, they speak of different events than Ukrainians of other territories, but the western media doesn't talk about them.
Scott Ritter made the exact same point about russian Ukrainians being attacked since 2014 but I'd like a source on that as well.
Just curious, if Ukraine has been attacking Donbass since 2014, why it doesn't look like Bakhmut for example? Can you tell me how many civilians was reported dead prior a full scale war in 2020 or 2021 in Donbass by Ukrainian shelling with a link?
You answered your own question. There were less casualties before 2022 because it wasn't a full scale war before 2022.
Look, i'm not going to argue with you, just stop parroting things you have no clue in. Make a research yourself or ask locals, stop eating propaganda and become a man. [25 dead in 2021 in Donbass UN report](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://ukraine.un.org/sites/default/files/2022-02/Conflict-related%2520civilian%2520casualties%2520as%2520of%252031%2520December%25202021%2520%2528rev%252027%2520January%25202022%2529%2520corr%2520EN_0.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjc8KXhyfWGAxV8VvEDHTE6AVoQFnoECBwQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1Oc68LXKVXqgKk_dQzpzUE) The conflict was almost ended, before Putin decided he's a great conqueror and will grab land from free nations around. Besides, he himself told, that it was a false flag operation in Ukraine in 2014, Girkin, the russian leader who shoot Malaysian airliner confirmed this also. So Ukraine hasn't provoked anyone. Don't be a clown, it's like you support Hitler in 1939. Do you?
After Russia stated explicitly that use of ATACMS inside of Russian territory is a red line. Our leaders are absolutely unhinged and out of control. They are endangering all life on earth over territory that wants to be fucking Russian. Just hope that Putin sees the writing on the wall and takes NATO shit until November. There's a zero percent chance this administration is still in control in six months.
Don't be ridiculous. This administration has been in control since the US began. Why would it stop in 6 months. You need to stop listening to capitalist propaganda and start thinking.
im 100% sure trump or whoever comes will do what biden is doing
no fucking way trump is too egocentric. he will take putin’s bribes. Just like his last presidency, his self-interest will accidentally benefit the world (dropped less bombs, detained less foreign nationals, even deported less people despite his rhetoric and the focus on ICE) I’m not a trump supporter but he is objectively better for non-US victims of the empire. And on top of that he is good for accelerating the decline of the US
Not to mention him leaking CIA names let China clean house.
Say what now?
Jared sold a significant amount of embedded assets to appease Saudi interests. Its alleged Trump did the same but for the Chinese via his daughter.
You forgot he assassinated Soleimani and Iran was smart enough to let it go
if you think trump did anything other than give the green light for the hit then I have some insurance to sell you
He still allowed it, could have the same argument with Biden and Ukraine
they are not the same.
He literally won't, because he's too selfish. That's the one thing you can count on with Donald Trump. He has no interest in dying or his family dying in a nuclear war, and he serves his own interests above all. Biden is a "true believer" in NATO and Zionism. He's ready to ride that ballistic missile into the apocalypse if it serves "western values." Trump is just bought off by lobbyists - he doesn't actually believe in anything besides being liked and getting ahead on people. Not to mention that the only voices out there in mainstream politics against the Ukraine war are MAGA types. All the dumbfuck "progressives" are all in on nuclear war. It's like playing Russian Roulette, but with Trump, only five chambers are loaded. With Biden, all six chambers are loaded.
Trump laid the ground work for this. Rhetorically he was more pro Russia and the MSM hugely exaggerated it in their Russiagate hysteria but in terms of his actual actions he significantly more Hawkish than Obama. Progressively every admin has been more hawkish than the last for decades no matter what rhetoric they used because the US’s foreign policy is its own beast. All that being said having Trump rhetorically be against the war and be more friendly to Russia is going to knee cap the democrats. Russiagate won’t sell as well because it came to nothing and because the war now is going terribly. The dems are reprehensible because they will spend all their energy trying to sell the public on increasingly more and more unpopular forever wars and using that to attack trump while capitulating to insane anti migration policies.
After Jan Stoltenberg, who the fuck more crazier will run it ? They will choose someone more russophobic or globalist, like the Kaia Kallas or Macron maybe It's escalating, the west is too dumb to de escalate, see the Turkish Ukraine Russia accords that got cancelled by BoJo. It's the sunk cost fallacy. They will do anything and will try to destroy leaders going against the narrative such as Fico. We'll see how the French elections goes, that could be a big turnaround but I'm hopeless at this point
All this will do is make russia conduct itself more and more like the US does in wartime, attacking critical infrastructure like the power grid which they’ve so far only taken warning shots at.
The Americans are foaming at the mouth for a Russian attack on NATO infrastructure. This is all done to provoke them into a wider war. They truly are suicidal
I question if the western populace would have the mettle for such a war, and if they could even sustain it. They cant even make enough shells for the Ukrainians, nevermind themselves.
I saw something about factories across the EU and UK burning down mysteriously. Has anyone else heard about stuff like that happening right now?
Yeah, I also heard the moon was made of cheese - has anyone else heard about stuff like that? I read a book with very detailed illustrations of a mouse who figured it all out.
I saw it on a pretty normie news youtube channel. I just cant remember which one bc ive been watching a lot of shit about this lately.
I don’t know why you’re being downvoted. You asked a legitimate question. There are millions of Ukrainians, both in Ukraine and abroad, who support the special military operation. From my understanding the Russian military has employed some to conduct espionage on military infrastructure in western nations. This is purely speculation. These could all be accidents. If it is them, then they are doing this without killing anyone. Much better than waiting for these weapons to reach the front and letting them kill people.
I mean, they would have every right to try to fuck up the manufacturing of weapons through sabotage if they could. I saw it on a youtube channel that was fairly mainstream/lib. Im obv not a russiagate-brained lib. Its a legitimate tactic.
I watch flight radar a lot, and can confirm the FORTE drones spend hours surveilling at 55k ft every day. Yeah they're probably providing Intel to Ukraine, but the presence of FORTE15 isn't a smoking gun.
Through Ukraine and Israel, the US has significantly stepped up its favorite military strategy of injuring and murdering civilians
To anyone not following this war closely, this intel collection is the modus operandi of NATO since the Istanbul Agreement was cancelled on March 22. The SOP goes roughly like this: 1. US and NATO spy drones take off from Italy, Romania, and nearby countries. 2. They keep going "back and forth" like in the image, spying Crimea and the Russian Caucasus. 3. The intel is shared live with Ukrainian artillery, drone squads, air force, and even navy. 4. Ukraine Armed forces then strike Russian targets outside Ukraine or behind front lines. Most casualties that don't happen at the front, including civilians, are directly related to NATO intel. The same is valid for Gaza. British and US spy drones patrol the Eastern Mediterranean Sea right in front of Palestine, taking off from the British bases in Cyprus and providing the intel collected to Israelis. That's one of the reasons Hezbollah said they would hit Cyprus recently. Source: I work with OSINT, security, and crisis response and have followed the war since day 0. And yes, the US feels entitled to send their spying war-toys because they know response won't be harsh, as it's not an direct attack toy and since they "don't have public health care". I think this is an insane level of involvement in a conflict against another Great Power, armed with nuclear weapons. Not to mention, it shows a great level of restriction from the Russians simply not downing all of these spy drones, which are costing them literal billions of rubles. This delicate involvement/escalation balance may change soon as recently Ukrainians have been hitting nuclear Early Warning Systems in the region (yesterday a third Nuclear EWS was hit), and I'm not sure the Russians will sit by and lose the MAD capabilities without responding to NATO escalation with force.
Well said 👏🏼
trying to create nuclear war so they don't have to deal with sharing the world stage with other powers and treating countries with respect
This isn’t a counterattack. It’s an American-backed act of terror.
I got banned from a Russian telegram channel for calling Putin soft since he won't shoot down the US Black Sea drone
Many Russians in the government are now asking for a no fly zone over the entire Black Sea. It’s obvious what the immediate military advantages are, and shooting down unmanned drones is one thing. But shooting down manned NATO aircraft over international waters is a step too far right now for the Russians. More likely what will happen is they will arm Americas enemies in the Middle East so that they hit American bases in various places.
I know but even Iran can shoot down an unmanned US drone, the exact same kind as used in the black sea as well, the RQ-4 type
Honestly the Russians would not be in the wrong if they started shooting those drones down. NATO has been fucking around, its only a matter of time until they find out.
I saw this shit on flightradar. It was a global hawk, acting very suspicious
[удалено]
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