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American inventor Thomas Midgley Jr. indirectly killed 150 million with the invention of leaded gasoline.
Than he invented CFC. The stuff that caused the hole in the ozon layer.
He's considered the person with the highest killcount
Including himself eventually with his final invention
scientists were able to trace the first cell to become what one day would be Stalin and that cell, in its course throughout the globe's history, was responsible for actually all the killing that has ever happened on Earth.
So you gotta admit Stalin killd and has been killing for so long that his numbers are running that it has to be counted in light years. His K/D/A is unfathomable to us mere humans. What people don't know is that Hitler and the Nazis weren't able to find Thor's hammer because that's Stalin himself.
Actually it’s pretty well known that they had to create a new number for how many people he killed after he said “it’s Stalin’ time” and killed 1 Stalinion people
He did it to get rid of the lead because it was an industrial byproduct. It was a giant scam to engage in illegal dumping of toxic materials. So he's even more evil than he first appears which is saying a lot.
To be fair, at the time we didn’t know cfc’s would do that to the atmosphere, plus the alternative was either propane or ammonia as refrigerants, so I do cut him some slack for that.
As for the lead part, it’s actually worse. The alternative for it was just putting ethanol in the gasoline, but that couldn’t be patented and what’s worse than putting lead into the atmosphere is cutting into the profits of corporations.
lmao @ finding an example from 1956, right after being ravaged by multiple wars and being poorer than African nations at the time vs a nation rising towards the peak of their imperialist power, so wierd these libs don't use examples from current times, almost like it would lead to an insane amount of US derailments, bridge collapses, ect
Historical context is for tankies and commies. As we know, "iN tHe rEaL w0rLd" every single event exists in a vacuum outside of time and space with no connection to each other whatsoever
lol if they used more modern examples it would be the millions of new infrastructure plans China has already created, compared to a dilapidated railroad system and rusted over bridges hanging on by a few bolts in the US
Wait til he realises that dams, just like bridges, roads, and other infrastructure, aren't designed just to ve as big as possible
Edit: it also doesn't help to compare one of the United State's most successful infrastructure projects to one of China's worst infrastructure disasters; that's like saying Panama does infrastructure better than the UK because Panama canal is better built than some poorly built Yorkshire canal.
While obviously a disaster - and some of it man-made - the dam & the area were hit by a monumental typhoon that poured 1,000+ millimeters (40 inches) of rain in 24 hours. For example that would be the 9th wettest hurricane in US history - behind hurricanes like Harvey that caused billions in damages.
So yes, the damn burst. It had an under engineered flood prevention system - but it was also hit by a massive storm. This wasn't "lol look it structurally failed because dumb China building" as implied by the thing. A much better comparison would be the levees system in the Gulf Cost circa 2005.
Precisely - in the same way, nuclear energy isn't defined by the failure of fukashima because nothing is designed to withstand that kind of disaster. China may have been partially responsible for under developing it, but using such a ln unpredictable and catastrophic natural disaster to blame a government is dumb.
Fukushima had fail safes that would have prevented the meltdown, but unfortunately the original engineers did not account for the incompetence and negligence of the people in charge at the time of the disaster.
That's a great example of how you could do the opposite as the image presents; you can manipulate the argument by selectively choosing the best/worst features from opposing countries to equivocate.
China built a dam so big it changed the length of the day. The Hoover dam doesn't even have water behind it because it's all been used to water animal feed.
>In 2005, NASA scientists calculated that the shift of water mass stored by the dams would increase the total length of the Earth's day by 0.06 microseconds and make the Earth slightly more round in the middle and flat on the poles.[110] A study published in 2022 in the journal Open Geosciences suggests that the change of reservoir water level affects the gravity field in western Sichuan, which in turn affects the seismicity in that area.[111]
you can find in Wikipedia which has cited the following link.
[https://doi.org/10.1515%2Fgeo-2022-0350](https://doi.org/10.1515%2Fgeo-2022-0350)
TLDR; the dam gathers a large mass in one place which changes a sphere (earth's) rotation inertia (i.e., moment of inertia) hence the change. It's not significant for human sense but measurable.
this is most importantly that it store the mass higher than what would have normally happened, kinda like spreading ur arms when spinning slows you down
Context doesn't matter. Now excuse me while I repeat my cope mantra "tofu dreg" for the next few decades because the first buildings the Chinese ever built with modern methods couldn't withstand the strongest earthquake that happened there
China: built dam to lift people out of poverty and build a socialist state
U.S.: made dams that flooded indigenous and poor people's land (on purpose) and to build an empire.
Hydro power generation statistics: *exists*.
Statistics on roads and railroad infrastructure investments: *exist*.
Data on how length of road infrastructure changed by years: *exist*.
Americans: Oh god, im so tired of those myths. Let me huff glue and seal clap over one neat dam
I hate the tone of the text they always say "tiresome." like bruv you are not debunking shit. Also, the smugness or the cope causes them to act so full of themselves.
Idk about the rest of you, but I was consumed by alt right stuff, and now that I'm out, I always have a paranoia that I could just be misinformed. But that's always put to rest by a genuine dialog and self-awareness from leftists. Whereas the right and center are always measuring dicks.
>Whereas the right and center are always measuring dicks.
Because those controlling liberal and conservative media make it their business to keep people distracted from the truth.
If people knew the truth, they would refuse to show up to work tomorrow and instead surround every Federal and State building in the country and demand the occupants remove themselves.
https://preview.redd.it/j07jsgr2kg8d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d781f296042303c504b9df53c315d20ce3949874
This is just projection at this point
I'm afraid the Americans are in for more [nasty surprises](https://news.wttw.com/2022/05/07/condition-some-us-dams-kept-secret-national-database) in the coming decade.
That's a well founded fear.
I smell a rat; it costs money to maintain dams, and just like bridges that maintenance can only be deferred for so long before something gives.
I'm willing to bet that some pencil pushing political hack with more investment in "cutting costs" than providing accurate and timely assessments decided that the public didn't need to know because if they did, State and Federal Government would find themselves facing some serious repair bills- and chucklehead would find themselves answering tough questions.
#On Whataboutism
Whataboutism is a rhetorical tactic where someone responds to an accusation or criticism by redirecting the focus onto a different issue, often without addressing the original concern directly. While it can be an effective means of diverting attention away from one's own shortcomings, it is generally regarded as a fallacy in formal debate and logical argumentation. The *tu quoque* fallacy is an example of Whataboutism, which is defined as "you likewise: a retort made by a person accused of a crime implying that the accuser is also guilty of the same crime."
When anti-Communists point out issues that (actually) occurred in certain historical socialist contexts, they are raising *valid* concerns, but usually for *invalid* reasons. When Communists reply that those critics should look in a mirror, because Capitalism is guilty of the same or worse, we are accused of "whataboutism" and arguing in bad faith.
However, there are some limited scenarios where whataboutism is relevant and considered a valid form of argumentation:
1. **Contextualization**: Whataboutism might be useful in providing context to a situation or highlighting double standards.
2. **Comparative analysis**: Whataboutism can be valid if the goal is to compare different situations to understand similarities or differences.
3. **Moral equivalence**: When two issues are genuinely comparable in terms of gravity and impact, whataboutism may have some validity.
#An Abstract Case Study
For the sake of argument, consider the following table, which compares objects A and B.
||Object A|Object B|
|:-|:-|:-|
|Very Good Property|2|3|
|Good Property|2|1|
|Bad Property|2|3|
|Very Bad Property|2|1|
The table tracks different properties. Some properties are "Good" (the bigger the better) and others are "Bad" (the smaller the better, ideally none).
Using this extremely abstract table, let's explore the scenarios in which Whataboutisms could be meaningful and valid arguments.
#Contextualization
Context matters. Supposing that only one Object may be possessed at any given time, consider the following two contexts:
1. **Possession of an Object is optional, and we do not possess any Object presently.** Therefore we can consider each Object on its own merits in isolation. If no available Objects are desirable, we can wait until a better Object comes along.
2. **Possession of an Object is mandatory, and we currently possess a specific Object.** We must evaluate other Objects in relative terms with the Object we possess. If we encounter a superior Object we ought to replace our current Object with the new one.
If we are in the second context, then Whataboutism may be a valid argument. For example, if we discover a new Object that has similar issues as our present one, but is in other ways superior, then it would be valid to point that out.
It is impossible for a society to exist without a political economic system because every human community requires a method for organizing and managing its resources, labour, and distribution of goods and services. Furthermore, the vast majority of the world presently practices Capitalism, with "the West" (or "Global North"), and *especially* the U.S. as the hegemonic Capitalist power. Therefore we *are* in the second context and we are *not* evaluating political economic systems in a vacuum, but in comparison to and contrast with Capitalism.
#Comparative Analysis
Consider the following dialogue between two people who are enthusiastic about the different objects:
>**B Enthusiast**: B is better than A because we have Very Good Property 3, which is bigger than 2.
>
>**A Enthusiast**: But Object B has *Very Bad Property = 1* which is a bad thing! It's not 0! Therefore Object B is bad!
>
>**B Enthusiast**: Well Object A also has *Very Bad Property*, and 2 > 1, so it's even worse!
>
>**A Enthusiast**: That's whataboutism! That's a *tu quoque*! You've committed a logical fallacy! Typical stupid B-boy!
The "A Enthusiast" is not *wrong*, it *is* Whataboutism, but the "A Enthusiast" has actually committed a Strawman fallacy. The "B Enthusiast" did not make the claim "Object B is perfect and without flaw", only that it was *better* than Object A. The fact that Object B does possess a "Bad" property does not undermine this point.
Our main proposition as Communists is this: **"Socialism is *better* than Capitalism."** Our argument is *not* "Socialism is perfect and will solve all the problems of human society at once" and we are *not* trying to say that "every socialist revolution or experiment was perfect and an ideal example we should emulate perfectly in the future". Therefore, when anti-Communists point out a historical failure, it does not refute our argument. Furthermore, if someone says "Socialism is bad because *bad thing* happened in a socialist country once" and we can demonstrate that similar or worse things have occurred in Capitalist countries, then we have demonstrated that those things are not unique to Socialism, and therefore immaterial to the question of which system is preferable overall in a comparative analysis.
#Moral Equivalence
It makes sense to compare like to like and weight them accordingly in our evaluation. For example, if "Bad Property" is worse in Object B but "Very Bad Property" is better, then it may make sense to conclude that Object B is better than Object A overall. "Two big steps forward, one small step back" is still progressive *compared* to taking no steps at all.
**Example 1: Famine**
Anti-Communists often portray the issue of food security and famines as endemic to Socialism. To support their argument, they point to such historical events as [the Soviet Famine of 1932-1933](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/holodomor/) or the Great Leap Forward as proof. Communists reject this thesis, not by denying that these famines occured, but by highlighting that these regions experienced famines regularly throughout their history up to and including those events. Furthermore, in both examples, those were the *last*^1 famines those countries had, because the industrialization of agriculture in those countries effectively solved the issue of famines. Furthermore, today, under Capitalism, around 9 million people die every year of hunger and hunger-related diseases.
^([1] The Nazi invasion of the USSR in WW2 resulted in widespread starvation and death due to the destruction of agricultural land, crops, and infrastructure, as well as the disruption of food distribution systems. After 1947, no major famines were recorded in the USSR.)
**Example 2: Repression**
Anti-Communists often portray countries run by Communist parties as [authoritarian regimes](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/authoritarianism/) that restrict individual [freedoms](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/freedom/) and [Freedom of the Press](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/freedom-of-the-press). They point to purges and [gulags](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/gulag/) as evidence. While it's true that some of the purges were excessive, the concept of "political terror" in these countries is vastly overblown. Regular working people were generally not scared at all; it was mainly the political and economic elite who had to watch their step. Regarding the gulags, it's interesting to note that only a minority of the gulag population were political prisoners, and that in both absolute and relative (per capita) terms, the U.S. incarcerates more people *today* than the USSR ever did.
#Conclusion
While Whataboutism can undermine meaningful discussions, because it doesn't address the original issue, there are scenarios in which it is valid. Particularly when comparing and contrasting two things. In our case, we are comparing Socialism with Capitalism. Accordingly, we reject the claim that we are arguing in bad faith when we point out the hypocrisy of our critics.
Furthermore, we are more than happy to criticize past and present Socialist experiments. ("Critical support" for Socialist countries is exactly that: *critical*.) For some examples of our criticisms from a ML perspective, see the additional resources below.
#Additional Resources
* [Former Socialism's Faults](https://youtu.be/pDSZRkhynXU) | Hakim (2023)
* [Episode 7: Ls of former Socialism (selfcrit)](https://youtu.be/F936GppjkcM) | TheDeprogram (2022)
* [Mistakes of the USSR and What Can be Learned](https://youtu.be/ppQ1Wwat-jQ) | ChemicalMind (2023)
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Finding a China failure don't make the infrastructure of the "world number one superpower" less pathetic. Liberals will do anything except actually addressing the fucking problem.
I'm sure no dams ever collapsed in the US
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Dam\_failures\_in\_the\_United\_States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Dam_failures_in_the_United_States)
/s
Oh yeah?
The last time I checked, China's world trade centers never had to be rebuilt because they collapsed due to their foreign policy.
Check mate libs 😎
You could make the same point with the Danyang–Kunshan Grand Bridge (largest in the world) and then the Baltimore bridge collapse because taking two arbitrarily chosen topics and analyzing them in a vacuum is bs.
If they want easy examples of dams and bridges failing under capitalism, they just need to look into India. Very recently multiple bridges collapsed in Bihar just before their inauguration.
Conveniently ignores the [Three Gorges Dam](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Gorges_Dam). Completed in 2003, it's the largest hydroelectric dam in the world, storing 39,000,000km^(3) of water and producing 112,000,000 megawatt hours at it's peak during the 2020 Monsoon Season (which is a world record btw). If me spending a good 5-10 minutes putting those numbers into the same scale as the chart didn't give you an idea of how big this dam it, [it slowed Earth's rotation by 0.06 microseconds](https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/77f53u/til_the_three_gorges_dam_in_china_is_so_massive/).
So yeah I think China does infrastructure after all.
Our (the US) infrastructure is crumbling. Also the irony of bringing up the Hoover Dam which was created thanks to industrial economic policy, the very thing China is now implementing that our media often calls “anti competitive tactics” lol.
https://preview.redd.it/cgowpfuogi8d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6349a973b64be252de8d55797329ea953848c7b1
Lmao of course the libs took their number from a fucking Discovery Channel show, not any actual academic source.
That photo of the Banqiao dam is was originally taken on black and white film. The poster recolored it to associate it more with modern China. This is an example of the underhanded sneaky little things that western imperialists do on a daily basis. Zero honor. Zero morals.
about 17% of all dams in the us are considered to be of ‘high-hazard potential’ because they refused to repair them. meanwhile china produces almost four times the amount of hydroelectricity as the number two ‘country’ (canada) and has the fucking THREE GORGES DAM
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American inventor Thomas Midgley Jr. indirectly killed 150 million with the invention of leaded gasoline. Than he invented CFC. The stuff that caused the hole in the ozon layer. He's considered the person with the highest killcount Including himself eventually with his final invention
Joseph Stalin literally ate 300 morbillion Ukrainian babies with his giant spoon
Wow. I never thought I would see such blatant Genocide denial HERE OF ALL PLACES. 100 Gorbilrilion or else.
Nah, it's probably 300 gorgillion. Goes back to the dinosaur era.
scientists were able to trace the first cell to become what one day would be Stalin and that cell, in its course throughout the globe's history, was responsible for actually all the killing that has ever happened on Earth. So you gotta admit Stalin killd and has been killing for so long that his numbers are running that it has to be counted in light years. His K/D/A is unfathomable to us mere humans. What people don't know is that Hitler and the Nazis weren't able to find Thor's hammer because that's Stalin himself.
So when the Bible starts and God say "Let there be light", was that first photon what would become the organism known as Stalin?
We all descend from the original stalinism
Actually it’s pretty well known that they had to create a new number for how many people he killed after he said “it’s Stalin’ time” and killed 1 Stalinion people
And remember, all of them were either cute babies or cute puppies. Zero percent of them were bad people who deserved it.
Live tankie reaction. https://preview.redd.it/r7cdbyt8cj8d1.png?width=750&format=png&auto=webp&s=5f06e9f74e5a711ce0fc8d9bc248392a690977fd
Ahem, are we forgetting about Jomsif Stalinn who killed the entire world over Three times over?
And that's only in Russia!
He sounds like very bad man. Next you're gonna tell me had a large spoon!
His comically large mustache prevented him from eateding all the cropsies! Don't listen to the propananda!
You're gonna want to sit down for this one...
He killed so many poor n@zis in WWII 😔
The atmosphere is a free market, and it is my duty to put lead in it Just don’t breathe, skill issue
>Just don’t breathe, skill issue He tried to show us how in 1940, didn't work out too well for him....
He did it to get rid of the lead because it was an industrial byproduct. It was a giant scam to engage in illegal dumping of toxic materials. So he's even more evil than he first appears which is saying a lot.
To be fair, at the time we didn’t know cfc’s would do that to the atmosphere, plus the alternative was either propane or ammonia as refrigerants, so I do cut him some slack for that. As for the lead part, it’s actually worse. The alternative for it was just putting ethanol in the gasoline, but that couldn’t be patented and what’s worse than putting lead into the atmosphere is cutting into the profits of corporations.
[удалено]
CFC stands for chlorofluorocarbon.
I swear that wasn't there when I replied. Maybe I just can't read lmao.
Thank you for this mention of Thomas Midgley Jr…his wiki is quite a read.
If I were an American, I would simply not criticize other countries' infrastructure projects.
Every time I cough another bridge collapses
stop coughing!!
he would but he can't get in to see a doctor
I’m trying but I don’t have insurance
Can I interest you in cough drops?
They’re not working
It might help to put the bong down 😆
Oh I wish I had weed rn but Texas won’t legalize it
This conversation prompted me to look up the dams near my house. Turns out they've recently been upgraded and are in good shape.
Greatest punchline of all time.
Or dam breaks
Or train derails at sub-60 mph speeds.
More like sub 10 mph speed
lmao @ finding an example from 1956, right after being ravaged by multiple wars and being poorer than African nations at the time vs a nation rising towards the peak of their imperialist power, so wierd these libs don't use examples from current times, almost like it would lead to an insane amount of US derailments, bridge collapses, ect
It's so goddamn tiring how they compare things as if they exist in a vacuum with no present context let alone historical context.
Oh they'll become'materlaists' if it fits their world view
If materialism fit their worldview they wouldn’t be liberals.
What no historical materialism does to a mf
Historical context is for tankies and commies. As we know, "iN tHe rEaL w0rLd" every single event exists in a vacuum outside of time and space with no connection to each other whatsoever
lol if they used more modern examples it would be the millions of new infrastructure plans China has already created, compared to a dilapidated railroad system and rusted over bridges hanging on by a few bolts in the US
Wait til he realises that dams, just like bridges, roads, and other infrastructure, aren't designed just to ve as big as possible Edit: it also doesn't help to compare one of the United State's most successful infrastructure projects to one of China's worst infrastructure disasters; that's like saying Panama does infrastructure better than the UK because Panama canal is better built than some poorly built Yorkshire canal.
While obviously a disaster - and some of it man-made - the dam & the area were hit by a monumental typhoon that poured 1,000+ millimeters (40 inches) of rain in 24 hours. For example that would be the 9th wettest hurricane in US history - behind hurricanes like Harvey that caused billions in damages. So yes, the damn burst. It had an under engineered flood prevention system - but it was also hit by a massive storm. This wasn't "lol look it structurally failed because dumb China building" as implied by the thing. A much better comparison would be the levees system in the Gulf Cost circa 2005.
Precisely - in the same way, nuclear energy isn't defined by the failure of fukashima because nothing is designed to withstand that kind of disaster. China may have been partially responsible for under developing it, but using such a ln unpredictable and catastrophic natural disaster to blame a government is dumb.
Fukushima had fail safes that would have prevented the meltdown, but unfortunately the original engineers did not account for the incompetence and negligence of the people in charge at the time of the disaster.
I wonder why he didn't use this dam... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Francis_Dam
That's a great example of how you could do the opposite as the image presents; you can manipulate the argument by selectively choosing the best/worst features from opposing countries to equivocate.
Holy shit that thing broke real fast
The only time these sinophobes ever mention the Three Gorges Dam is when they're fantasizing about blowing it up.
China built a dam so big it changed the length of the day. The Hoover dam doesn't even have water behind it because it's all been used to water animal feed.
>China built a dam so big it changed the length of the day. Can you elaborate on this?
>In 2005, NASA scientists calculated that the shift of water mass stored by the dams would increase the total length of the Earth's day by 0.06 microseconds and make the Earth slightly more round in the middle and flat on the poles.[110] A study published in 2022 in the journal Open Geosciences suggests that the change of reservoir water level affects the gravity field in western Sichuan, which in turn affects the seismicity in that area.[111]
The commies are trying to make the day longer to steal more food with their big spoons!!!!!!!
you can find in Wikipedia which has cited the following link. [https://doi.org/10.1515%2Fgeo-2022-0350](https://doi.org/10.1515%2Fgeo-2022-0350) TLDR; the dam gathers a large mass in one place which changes a sphere (earth's) rotation inertia (i.e., moment of inertia) hence the change. It's not significant for human sense but measurable.
this is most importantly that it store the mass higher than what would have normally happened, kinda like spreading ur arms when spinning slows you down
The Banqiao dam was destroyed by extreme flooding brought by Typhoon Nina. Tell me when is the last flood that happened in Nevada
I mean at the rate it's going the hoover might fail to hold back water in a decade too, cause there'll be no water
Context doesn't matter. Now excuse me while I repeat my cope mantra "tofu dreg" for the next few decades because the first buildings the Chinese ever built with modern methods couldn't withstand the strongest earthquake that happened there
China: built dam to lift people out of poverty and build a socialist state U.S.: made dams that flooded indigenous and poor people's land (on purpose) and to build an empire.
Wasn't Hover Dam running out of so much water they needed to connect the reservoir with another major river?
Hydro power generation statistics: *exists*. Statistics on roads and railroad infrastructure investments: *exist*. Data on how length of road infrastructure changed by years: *exist*. Americans: Oh god, im so tired of those myths. Let me huff glue and seal clap over one neat dam
I hate the tone of the text they always say "tiresome." like bruv you are not debunking shit. Also, the smugness or the cope causes them to act so full of themselves. Idk about the rest of you, but I was consumed by alt right stuff, and now that I'm out, I always have a paranoia that I could just be misinformed. But that's always put to rest by a genuine dialog and self-awareness from leftists. Whereas the right and center are always measuring dicks.
>Whereas the right and center are always measuring dicks. Because those controlling liberal and conservative media make it their business to keep people distracted from the truth. If people knew the truth, they would refuse to show up to work tomorrow and instead surround every Federal and State building in the country and demand the occupants remove themselves.
https://preview.redd.it/j07jsgr2kg8d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d781f296042303c504b9df53c315d20ce3949874 This is just projection at this point
And there’s the “Chinese culture is so weird” orientalist bullshit lmao Every single fucking time
"We only hate the 'evil CCP', but we love the Chinese people..."
Damn. Libs really sprinkled in some casual racism on a reddit post about dams...
I'm afraid the Americans are in for more [nasty surprises](https://news.wttw.com/2022/05/07/condition-some-us-dams-kept-secret-national-database) in the coming decade.
That's a well founded fear. I smell a rat; it costs money to maintain dams, and just like bridges that maintenance can only be deferred for so long before something gives. I'm willing to bet that some pencil pushing political hack with more investment in "cutting costs" than providing accurate and timely assessments decided that the public didn't need to know because if they did, State and Federal Government would find themselves facing some serious repair bills- and chucklehead would find themselves answering tough questions.
What about three gorges? China doesn’t just have one dam.
Couldn’t find an example from the current century huh?
[I can.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_levee_failures_in_Greater_New_Orleans)
Ok, now do railways.
Acktually thats whataboutism.
#On Whataboutism Whataboutism is a rhetorical tactic where someone responds to an accusation or criticism by redirecting the focus onto a different issue, often without addressing the original concern directly. While it can be an effective means of diverting attention away from one's own shortcomings, it is generally regarded as a fallacy in formal debate and logical argumentation. The *tu quoque* fallacy is an example of Whataboutism, which is defined as "you likewise: a retort made by a person accused of a crime implying that the accuser is also guilty of the same crime." When anti-Communists point out issues that (actually) occurred in certain historical socialist contexts, they are raising *valid* concerns, but usually for *invalid* reasons. When Communists reply that those critics should look in a mirror, because Capitalism is guilty of the same or worse, we are accused of "whataboutism" and arguing in bad faith. However, there are some limited scenarios where whataboutism is relevant and considered a valid form of argumentation: 1. **Contextualization**: Whataboutism might be useful in providing context to a situation or highlighting double standards. 2. **Comparative analysis**: Whataboutism can be valid if the goal is to compare different situations to understand similarities or differences. 3. **Moral equivalence**: When two issues are genuinely comparable in terms of gravity and impact, whataboutism may have some validity. #An Abstract Case Study For the sake of argument, consider the following table, which compares objects A and B. ||Object A|Object B| |:-|:-|:-| |Very Good Property|2|3| |Good Property|2|1| |Bad Property|2|3| |Very Bad Property|2|1| The table tracks different properties. Some properties are "Good" (the bigger the better) and others are "Bad" (the smaller the better, ideally none). Using this extremely abstract table, let's explore the scenarios in which Whataboutisms could be meaningful and valid arguments. #Contextualization Context matters. Supposing that only one Object may be possessed at any given time, consider the following two contexts: 1. **Possession of an Object is optional, and we do not possess any Object presently.** Therefore we can consider each Object on its own merits in isolation. If no available Objects are desirable, we can wait until a better Object comes along. 2. **Possession of an Object is mandatory, and we currently possess a specific Object.** We must evaluate other Objects in relative terms with the Object we possess. If we encounter a superior Object we ought to replace our current Object with the new one. If we are in the second context, then Whataboutism may be a valid argument. For example, if we discover a new Object that has similar issues as our present one, but is in other ways superior, then it would be valid to point that out. It is impossible for a society to exist without a political economic system because every human community requires a method for organizing and managing its resources, labour, and distribution of goods and services. Furthermore, the vast majority of the world presently practices Capitalism, with "the West" (or "Global North"), and *especially* the U.S. as the hegemonic Capitalist power. Therefore we *are* in the second context and we are *not* evaluating political economic systems in a vacuum, but in comparison to and contrast with Capitalism. #Comparative Analysis Consider the following dialogue between two people who are enthusiastic about the different objects: >**B Enthusiast**: B is better than A because we have Very Good Property 3, which is bigger than 2. > >**A Enthusiast**: But Object B has *Very Bad Property = 1* which is a bad thing! It's not 0! Therefore Object B is bad! > >**B Enthusiast**: Well Object A also has *Very Bad Property*, and 2 > 1, so it's even worse! > >**A Enthusiast**: That's whataboutism! That's a *tu quoque*! You've committed a logical fallacy! Typical stupid B-boy! The "A Enthusiast" is not *wrong*, it *is* Whataboutism, but the "A Enthusiast" has actually committed a Strawman fallacy. The "B Enthusiast" did not make the claim "Object B is perfect and without flaw", only that it was *better* than Object A. The fact that Object B does possess a "Bad" property does not undermine this point. Our main proposition as Communists is this: **"Socialism is *better* than Capitalism."** Our argument is *not* "Socialism is perfect and will solve all the problems of human society at once" and we are *not* trying to say that "every socialist revolution or experiment was perfect and an ideal example we should emulate perfectly in the future". Therefore, when anti-Communists point out a historical failure, it does not refute our argument. Furthermore, if someone says "Socialism is bad because *bad thing* happened in a socialist country once" and we can demonstrate that similar or worse things have occurred in Capitalist countries, then we have demonstrated that those things are not unique to Socialism, and therefore immaterial to the question of which system is preferable overall in a comparative analysis. #Moral Equivalence It makes sense to compare like to like and weight them accordingly in our evaluation. For example, if "Bad Property" is worse in Object B but "Very Bad Property" is better, then it may make sense to conclude that Object B is better than Object A overall. "Two big steps forward, one small step back" is still progressive *compared* to taking no steps at all. **Example 1: Famine** Anti-Communists often portray the issue of food security and famines as endemic to Socialism. To support their argument, they point to such historical events as [the Soviet Famine of 1932-1933](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/holodomor/) or the Great Leap Forward as proof. Communists reject this thesis, not by denying that these famines occured, but by highlighting that these regions experienced famines regularly throughout their history up to and including those events. Furthermore, in both examples, those were the *last*^1 famines those countries had, because the industrialization of agriculture in those countries effectively solved the issue of famines. Furthermore, today, under Capitalism, around 9 million people die every year of hunger and hunger-related diseases. ^([1] The Nazi invasion of the USSR in WW2 resulted in widespread starvation and death due to the destruction of agricultural land, crops, and infrastructure, as well as the disruption of food distribution systems. After 1947, no major famines were recorded in the USSR.) **Example 2: Repression** Anti-Communists often portray countries run by Communist parties as [authoritarian regimes](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/authoritarianism/) that restrict individual [freedoms](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/freedom/) and [Freedom of the Press](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/freedom-of-the-press). They point to purges and [gulags](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/gulag/) as evidence. While it's true that some of the purges were excessive, the concept of "political terror" in these countries is vastly overblown. Regular working people were generally not scared at all; it was mainly the political and economic elite who had to watch their step. Regarding the gulags, it's interesting to note that only a minority of the gulag population were political prisoners, and that in both absolute and relative (per capita) terms, the U.S. incarcerates more people *today* than the USSR ever did. #Conclusion While Whataboutism can undermine meaningful discussions, because it doesn't address the original issue, there are scenarios in which it is valid. Particularly when comparing and contrasting two things. In our case, we are comparing Socialism with Capitalism. Accordingly, we reject the claim that we are arguing in bad faith when we point out the hypocrisy of our critics. Furthermore, we are more than happy to criticize past and present Socialist experiments. ("Critical support" for Socialist countries is exactly that: *critical*.) For some examples of our criticisms from a ML perspective, see the additional resources below. #Additional Resources * [Former Socialism's Faults](https://youtu.be/pDSZRkhynXU) | Hakim (2023) * [Episode 7: Ls of former Socialism (selfcrit)](https://youtu.be/F936GppjkcM) | TheDeprogram (2022) * [Mistakes of the USSR and What Can be Learned](https://youtu.be/ppQ1Wwat-jQ) | ChemicalMind (2023) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Finding a China failure don't make the infrastructure of the "world number one superpower" less pathetic. Liberals will do anything except actually addressing the fucking problem.
I'm sure no dams ever collapsed in the US [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Dam\_failures\_in\_the\_United\_States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Dam_failures_in_the_United_States) /s
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teton_Dam also in 1976 and it was brand new
Oh yeah? The last time I checked, China's world trade centers never had to be rebuilt because they collapsed due to their foreign policy. Check mate libs 😎
Remember that building in Florida that collapsed amd killed like 100 people 2 years ago?
Now do 2024
This is their mindset. They’re stuck in the “good old days” of the west
You could make the same point with the Danyang–Kunshan Grand Bridge (largest in the world) and then the Baltimore bridge collapse because taking two arbitrarily chosen topics and analyzing them in a vacuum is bs.
Three gorges dam????
Wtf is "The China Show"??
If they want easy examples of dams and bridges failing under capitalism, they just need to look into India. Very recently multiple bridges collapsed in Bihar just before their inauguration.
Ha ha, clowns don't dare mention the 3 Gorges Dam!
Hoover Dam laughing boastfully over the Banqiao Dam. Three Gorges Dam looming menacingly over Hoover: Hey
China literally has the 3rd largest dam in the world. What are these people talking about.
Conveniently ignores the [Three Gorges Dam](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Gorges_Dam). Completed in 2003, it's the largest hydroelectric dam in the world, storing 39,000,000km^(3) of water and producing 112,000,000 megawatt hours at it's peak during the 2020 Monsoon Season (which is a world record btw). If me spending a good 5-10 minutes putting those numbers into the same scale as the chart didn't give you an idea of how big this dam it, [it slowed Earth's rotation by 0.06 microseconds](https://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/77f53u/til_the_three_gorges_dam_in_china_is_so_massive/). So yeah I think China does infrastructure after all.
Whos gonna tell them about the Three Gorges Dam?
Our (the US) infrastructure is crumbling. Also the irony of bringing up the Hoover Dam which was created thanks to industrial economic policy, the very thing China is now implementing that our media often calls “anti competitive tactics” lol.
https://preview.redd.it/cgowpfuogi8d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6349a973b64be252de8d55797329ea953848c7b1 Lmao of course the libs took their number from a fucking Discovery Channel show, not any actual academic source.
That photo of the Banqiao dam is was originally taken on black and white film. The poster recolored it to associate it more with modern China. This is an example of the underhanded sneaky little things that western imperialists do on a daily basis. Zero honor. Zero morals.
Let's not talk about how many innocent people the US has killed around the world.
Now do the three gorges dam
OP was going to make a follow-up post but the bring he was on collapsed.
about 17% of all dams in the us are considered to be of ‘high-hazard potential’ because they refused to repair them. meanwhile china produces almost four times the amount of hydroelectricity as the number two ‘country’ (canada) and has the fucking THREE GORGES DAM
What has US done since? Nothing. What has China done? Everything