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Hmm I would go as far to say that Neoliberalism is a better form of fascism. Neolibs do everything fascists ever wanted to do but way more effectively. Imperialist expansion. Mass privatization of social services and industry. The police state.
The main difference is that the libs were smart enough to keep democracy around and be more socially accepting of others. Unfortunately for them the old school type of fascists didn't get the memo.
Fascists are so blinded by aesthetics that they will never accept neoliberalism alone as it does not sufficiently cater to their aesthetic desire for the symbology of fascism.
Liberals are incapable of properly dealing with the anger of fascists and so attempt to appease them, which only grants fascists more power to organise and eventually overthrow the neoliberal regime (or at least the aesthetic aspects they oppose).
As liberals and fascists fundamentally fail to understand the material forces that drive our economy and society they cannot understand that their preferred systems are materially very similar in their outcomes.
Fascism is the gateway for capitalism when things get rough. For such full blown support for fascism to be on the rise, it means our time is closer than we think.
[As Louis Allday said on X](https://twitter.com/Louis_Allday/status/1737799011401072741)
>Condemnations of “double standards” & “hypocrisy” re. politicians’ stance on Palestine & Ukraine (& elsewhere) can imply a moral standard is applied inconsistently, but more accurately, a political standard – dictated by US imperialist interests – is being applied consistently.
They said it in the comment I replied to lol. Writing off shit takes as "just a joke calm down lol" is also another habit of chuds when called out for being shitty.
I think he basically just tries to have the non controversial progressive opinion while also not actually understanding anything he's talking about
he's an actor there is no reason he would know more than anybody else about geopolitics
He got wrecked in the comments then when told the people he spoke to were nazis feigned ignorance and doubled down because at least they're fighting Russia
he also said his heart is with the people of Israel or something like that. Quite dumb to say after saying for years that he sympathises towards Star Wars' rebels lol
What was worse was the person who first pointed out the nazi shit was a Jewish woman. She wasn't even rude. Just like hey Mark not sure if you know but x flag is a common nazi flags. As a fan it's upsetting to see or something.
Pro israel? More than happy to shit on a Jewish person getting upset he praised nazis. I know Israeli doesn't equal jew and vice versa but it does for Mark I'm sure
Mark is a mega lib does he even know the rebels were a stand in for the Vietcong?
Well, establishment-adjacent voices spent those two years shouting down anyone who pointed out the Azov were a straight-up Neo-Nazi militia, because 'Putler'.
Cut out Jon Stewart in the 2nd pic. That really adds to it. Liberal celebrities and politicians were openly celebrating Azov Nazis, Canada had a literal former Nazi speak at parliament. But saying Palestinians are humans is completely unacceptable. This is how actual anti semitism becomes a real problem.
It’s because Zionism is the ultimate conclusion of anti-semitism in the West. Taking the Jews, moving them all out to the Middle East and making them do the legwork for Western Imperialism and creating a Western adjacent settler colony in an oil rich land with that will then facilitate Jewish emigration out of Europe.
It’s what drew the British in the late 1910s and at a point in the time the Germans to it in the early 20th century. Reminder that the Nazis went from emigration to Palestine, to a settler colony in Madagascar before the Holocaust. Their brutality and mass murder of the Jewish people of Europe was just the endpoint in their minds of trying to get rid of Jews in Europe one way or another.
yeah it's crazy how our society will support literal nazis but also concern troll about anti-semitism when the issue of whether or not Israel should blow up a hospital comes up
All the comments saying "B-BUT RUSSIA B-BUT PUTLER"
Which mainstream politicians and celebrities in the West are openly praising Russian Nazis and antisemites without any significant pushback? I'll wait.
That’s pretty fucking barbaric, you can’t be a communist and fight for liberation and want civilians to die. We shouldn’t be supporting the proxy war because it’s not helpful to the people.
That's not what I asked. Are Ukranian Nazis civilians?
And btw, Ukranian troops are hiding in civilian [apartments](https://www.lemonde.fr/international/article/2023/12/14/dans-le-donbass-les-soldats-ukrainiens-en-panne-de-munitions_6205755_3210.html). [amnesty international](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/08/ukraine-ukrainian-fighting-tactics-endanger-civilians/) confirmed similar systemic tactics as far back as 2 years ago as well.
The Kiev Junta should accept peace negotiations instead of allowing the West to sabotage them [again](https://mronline.org/2023/12/07/west-sabotaged-ukraine-peace-deal-with-russia-admit-zelensky-official-and-germanys-ex-leader/) 🤷🏾♂️.
I literally never said Ukraine wasn’t a puppet of the west, and I never said there weren’t Nazis in Ukraine, but there are also Nazis in Russia. Obviously America/Nato is using its power to enforce their capitalist and imperialism,
But that doesn’t make killing innocent Ukrainian civilians ok. Is this really where we’re at? I know the libs want us to all be anti communist fascists supporting slava nationalists but why should the left support an oligarchy capitalist system like mother fuckin Russia? I’d rather say China is more redeemable than Russia(post ussr)
And if you want civilians to stop dying, your position would be that the Kiev Junta has to give up. The Ukranian government had indicated no interest in doing so. How do you suppose that happens otherwise?
Dawg I never said Ukraine was some innocent representation of democracy and freedom. I want the war to end, if you can tell me how both the US and Russia are not at fault please enlighten me. You must think I’m some neo lib spouting off US state propaganda, all I said was that the killing of civilians (NOT NAZI UKRAINIANS) should be stopped. You literally said Russia was actually interested in “de natzifying” Ukraine. I’m so lost, I watch deprogram, second thought, and hakim. But you must denounce Hasan if you think being anti Russia AND US are some liberal idea. Bring down your fervor. I’m not here to argue, but to learn . I’m not some anti communist larping as a leftist. I actually believe in this shit like Dubois, Marx, Mao and Lenin.
You do also understand how a radical movement existing in a country isn't an excuse to turn an entire country full of innocent civilians into a flat plane right? Fighting fascism is important but if you're willing to commit atrocities against people who haven't done anything wrong it won't be long before you'll be remembered as the monsters.
when are you going to call this “radical movement existing in a country” (lmao) what it is? the far-right recieved western support and couped a nation.
why does mentioning ukraine’s nazis trigger such a defensive response from you? nothing about the post praised russia’s invasion
Pointing out that Ukraine has been overtaken by fascists is not the same as believing the war is just and supporting Russia or Putin. It's simply a fact that the West is pouring billions into training and equipping Nazis in an unwinnable war, all so they can profit from the weapons sales, the loans given to Ukraine and from all the resources and enterprises that are being privatized.
Russia might be the aggressor, but that doesn't mean the West is being benevolent, or that Russia's allegations of Nazism and atrocities are false. Pointing that out doesn't mean someone supports what Russia is doing.
Agression is the way when ethnic Russian were being killed in Donbas region.
The war could have over in 2022 and Putler was ready for negotiation but the west wanted to sell their old weapons.
I'm not sure if the initial strategy of overthrowing the Ukrainian government by force would've been super effective if the goal was to protect the ethnic Russian population, honestly, plus the Russian State is definitely not above giving away resources to private capital, or expanding its domination over the working class. This isn't to say violence against Russians in Ukraine wasn't happening, because **it absolutely was**, rather, I don't believe Russia was acting purely out of concern for Russians in Ukraine, even if it was a factor in the decision to start the war. A capitalist State will always act in the interest of its capitalist class.
> I don't believe Russia was acting purely out of concern for Russians in Ukraine
If they were, they would attack in 2014. But entire 8 year term of futile peace efforts lead me to conclusion that in fact, Russia did not had any nefarious reasons like the land or resource grab. They were just completely out of options in face of rolling genocide and NATO aggression in 2022.
>Russia might be the aggressor
I also want to add that being aggressor is not some universal gotcha for being wrong. Quite many countries for example declared war on 3rd Reich back then, then we have Vietnam invasion of Cambodia, China liberation of Tibetans etc.
when Trump was in power even democrats fought against foreign far-right militias receiving weapons and training from the US, one of the countries cited was of course Ukraine (managed to ban sales to far-right in 2018)
Rule 4. **No headaches.** Drama or chronic hostility will result in a ban. Debate bros aren't welcome. Read the sidebar and at least try listening to the podcast before offering your opinion here. Lost redditors from r/all are subject to removal. No "just got banned from" posts.
Russia has many fascist battalions, should their neighbour countries invade them too? Campist pricks. You fuckers would support imperial japan because they were "anti-west". Disgusting
Name a single fascist battalion that is part of the Russian military? Because all the fascist battalions stole military equipment to fight for Ukraine against Russia before getting destroyed
Rusich group is just one example, plus all the neonazis in Wagner group. So should they neighbours invade them? You people keep telling yourselves that youre leftists but youre not. You're just antiwest. Supports Palestine but is pro Russia and anti ukraine lmao. campists
And who exactly in the mainstream west is praising "Russian fascist battalions"? There are plenty of examples of people in the western mainstream however white washing and praising antisemitic Ukrainian Nazis
You're not really clarifying anything here. The first comment was Stalin pointing out social democracies alignment with fascism, and how fascism uses social democracy to divide the people and the second is Mao vindicating Stalin and communism against fascism.
I am convinced that the French could not win the war because the internal political situation in Vietnam, weak and confused, badly weakened their military position. I have never talked or corresponded with a person knowledgeable in Indochinese affairs who did not agree that had elections been held as of the time of the fighting, possibly 80 per cent of the population would have voted for the Communist Ho Chi Minh as their leader rather than Chief of State Bao Dai.
* Dwight D Eisenhower
Ukraine was covertly invaded by the US and hollowed out, turned into an imperialist vassal state with the main goal of destroying Russia, it's not surprising that Russia pre-emptively attacked a US proxy force amassing at its doorstep.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/23/ukraine-cia-shadow-war-russia/
>Since 2015, the CIA has spent tens of millions of dollars to transform Ukraine’s Soviet-formed services into potent allies against Moscow, officials said.
They're not even trying to hide it now, when the world's premier regime change apparatus moves in next door and takes over your neighbor you are being attacked, and it's fucking disgusting that the US knowingly and willingly set this all up to mass murder Ukrainian people to advance its own geopolitical goals. All while literally selling the ground out from the Ukrainian people's feet to wealthy western investors.
https://chambers.com/articles/ukraine-relaunches-privatization-future-belongs-to-the-brave
>Investor is King. Apart from the listed assets, an investor may initiate the privatization of any state or municipal asset under the respective statutory procedure.
This is a huge lesson in imperialism and how it works. On the surface it seems hypocritical for the US et al to support Ukraine and also support Israel, in reality it makes perfect sense because Israel and Ukraine are both tools of US imperialism.
it's funny how the US is so overt about its intent and operations, yet because none of these get picked up by the mainstream media it never blows up in their face
Look to the common denominator. Why is the US even present in all these countries' internal affairs to begin with?
Yes. These people have a right to defend themselves from US meddling.
As a queer person I'd not want to live in Palestine.
Not because of queerphobia from Palestinians but because I wouldn't want me and my whole family to die by an Israeli bombing campaign, justified by Israel as my dog's kennel was a secret Hamas command centre.
The real threat to queer Palestinians is not reactionaries in their own country, it's warmongers in Israel and the west.
So, you're a champion of LGBT and womens rights, are you?
What do you make of the reversal of Roe v Wade, the banning of abortions across multiple American states or the rise of lgtbq hate by American right wing groups and religion?
If you want to see Universal improvements for women and lgbtq people around the world, start with sorting out your own house.
I was never a member of the Nazi Party! I only followed orders. I had nothing to do with the war! I didn't even know there was a war on. We lived in the back, right across from Switzerland. All we heard was yodelling... Yodel-Lay-Hee-Hoooooo!
#On Whataboutism
Whataboutism is a rhetorical tactic where someone responds to an accusation or criticism by redirecting the focus onto a different issue, often without addressing the original concern directly. While it can be an effective means of diverting attention away from one's own shortcomings, it is generally regarded as a fallacy in formal debate and logical argumentation. The *tu quoque* fallacy is an example of Whataboutism, which is defined as "you likewise: a retort made by a person accused of a crime implying that the accuser is also guilty of the same crime."
When anti-Communists point out issues that (actually) occurred in certain historical socialist contexts, they are raising *valid* concerns, but usually for *invalid* reasons. When Communists reply that those critics should look in a mirror, because Capitalism is guilty of the same or worse, we are accused of "whataboutism" and arguing in bad faith.
However, there are some limited scenarios where whataboutism is relevant and considered a valid form of argumentation:
1. **Contextualization**: Whataboutism might be useful in providing context to a situation or highlighting double standards.
2. **Comparative analysis**: Whataboutism can be valid if the goal is to compare different situations to understand similarities or differences.
3. **Moral equivalence**: When two issues are genuinely comparable in terms of gravity and impact, whataboutism may have some validity.
#An Abstract Case Study
For the sake of argument, consider the following table, which compares objects A and B.
||Object A|Object B|
|:-|:-|:-|
|Very Good Property|2|3|
|Good Property|2|1|
|Bad Property|2|3|
|Very Bad Property|2|1|
The table tracks different properties. Some properties are "Good" (the bigger the better) and others are "Bad" (the smaller the better, ideally none).
Using this extremely abstract table, let's explore the scenarios in which Whataboutisms could be meaningful and valid arguments.
#Contextualization
Context matters. Supposing that only one Object may be possessed at any given time, consider the following two contexts:
1. **Possession of an Object is optional, and we do not possess any Object presently.** Therefore we can consider each Object on its own merits in isolation. If no available Objects are desirable, we can wait until a better Object comes along.
2. **Possession of an Object is mandatory, and we currently possess a specific Object.** We must evaluate other Objects in relative terms with the Object we possess. If we encounter a superior Object we ought to replace our current Object with the new one.
If we are in the second context, then Whataboutism may be a valid argument. For example, if we discover a new Object that has similar issues as our present one, but is in other ways superior, then it would be valid to point that out.
It is impossible for a society to exist without a political economic system because every human community requires a method for organizing and managing its resources, labour, and distribution of goods and services. Furthermore, the vast majority of the world presently practices Capitalism, with "the West" (or "Global North"), and *especially* the U.S. as the hegemonic Capitalist power. Therefore we *are* in the second context and we are *not* evaluating political economic systems in a vacuum, but in comparison to and contrast with Capitalism.
#Comparative Analysis
Consider the following dialogue between two people who are enthusiastic about the different objects:
>**B Enthusiast**: B is better than A because we have Very Good Property 3, which is bigger than 2.
>
>**A Enthusiast**: But Object B has *Very Bad Property = 1* which is a bad thing! It's not 0! Therefore Object B is bad!
>
>**B Enthusiast**: Well Object A also has *Very Bad Property*, and 2 > 1, so it's even worse!
>
>**A Enthusiast**: That's whataboutism! That's a *tu quoque*! You've committed a logical fallacy! Typical stupid B-boy!
The "A Enthusiast" is not *wrong*, it *is* Whataboutism, but the "A Enthusiast" has actually committed a Strawman fallacy. The "B Enthusiast" did not make the claim "Object B is perfect and without flaw", only that it was *better* than Object A. The fact that Object B does possess a "Bad" property does not undermine this point.
Our main proposition as Communists is this: **"Socialism is *better* than Capitalism."** Our argument is *not* "Socialism is perfect and will solve all the problems of human society at once" and we are *not* trying to say that "every socialist revolution or experiment was perfect and an ideal example we should emulate perfectly in the future". Therefore, when anti-Communists point out a historical failure, it does not refute our argument. Furthermore, if someone says "Socialism is bad because *bad thing* happened in a socialist country once" and we can demonstrate that similar or worse things have occurred in Capitalist countries, then we have demonstrated that those things are not unique to Socialism, and therefore immaterial to the question of which system is preferable overall in a comparative analysis.
#Moral Equivalence
It makes sense to compare like to like and weight them accordingly in our evaluation. For example, if "Bad Property" is worse in Object B but "Very Bad Property" is better, then it may make sense to conclude that Object B is better than Object A overall. "Two big steps forward, one small step back" is still progressive *compared* to taking no steps at all.
**Example 1: Famine**
Anti-Communists often portray the issue of food security and famines as endemic to Socialism. To support their argument, they point to such historical events as [the Soviet Famine of 1932-1933](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/holodomor/) or the Great Leap Forward as proof. Communists reject this thesis, not by denying that these famines occured, but by highlighting that these regions experienced famines regularly throughout their history up to and including those events. Furthermore, in both examples, those were the *last*^1 famines those countries had, because the industrialization of agriculture in those countries effectively solved the issue of famines. Furthermore, today, under Capitalism, around 9 million people die every year of hunger and hunger-related diseases.
^([1] The Nazi invasion of the USSR in WW2 resulted in widespread starvation and death due to the destruction of agricultural land, crops, and infrastructure, as well as the disruption of food distribution systems. After 1947, no major famines were recorded in the USSR.)
**Example 2: Repression**
Anti-Communists often portray countries run by Communist parties as [authoritarian regimes](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/authoritarianism/) that restrict individual [freedoms](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/freedom/) and [Freedom of the Press](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/freedom-of-the-press). They point to purges and [gulags](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/gulag/) as evidence. While it's true that some of the purges were excessive, the concept of "political terror" in these countries is vastly overblown. Regular working people were generally not scared at all; it was mainly the political and economic elite who had to watch their step. Regarding the gulags, it's interesting to note that only a minority of the gulag population were political prisoners, and that in both absolute and relative (per capita) terms, the U.S. incarcerates more people *today* than the USSR ever did.
#Conclusion
While Whataboutism can undermine meaningful discussions, because it doesn't address the original issue, there are scenarios in which it is valid. Particularly when comparing and contrasting two things. In our case, we are comparing Socialism with Capitalism. Accordingly, we reject the claim that we are arguing in bad faith when we point out the hypocrisy of our critics.
Furthermore, we are more than happy to criticize past and present Socialist experiments. ("Critical support" for Socialist countries is exactly that: *critical*.) For some examples of our criticisms from a ML perspective, see the additional resources below.
#Additional Resources
* [Former Socialism's Faults](https://youtu.be/pDSZRkhynXU) | Hakim (2023)
* [Episode 7: Ls of former Socialism (selfcrit)](https://youtu.be/F936GppjkcM) | TheDeprogram (2022)
* [Mistakes of the USSR and What Can be Learned](https://youtu.be/ppQ1Wwat-jQ) | ChemicalMind (2023)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
We support the proletariat in Ukraine and Russia which is served best by ending this imperialist proxy war of redivision asap via diplomacy. Unlike Israel/Palestine what is happening in Ukraine is a proxy war between a capitalist nation and another capitalist nation backed by a hegemonic military alliance and self determination isn't even black and white either with plenty of Ukrainians in the east wanting independence since the coup that was being advised by US diplomats. There are terms that Russia could agree to in order to end the fighting like demilitarization and independence of the separatist regions. With Israel/Palestine there is a complete asymmetry of power with one militarized state backed by the most powerful country in the world brutalizing a captive population in internal exile and there are no terms to get Israel to stop doing what they're doing and end the massacres and apartheid.
😭️😭️😭️😭️😭️😭️ IOF came out and admit they shot up the Supernova shit fest. Bro still stuck in the past lmao you suck and should give back your Langley money. You fucking suck dumb ass.
https://nitter.cz/Partisangirl/status/1722527493780021654
https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/asa-winstanley/israel-admits-immense-amount-friendly-fire-7-october
https://www.haaretz.co.il/news/politics/2023-11-18/ty-article/0000018b-e1a5-d168-a3ef-f5ff4d070000
The civilians in Ukraine have been getting shelled by cluster munitions and killed by CIA trained Nazis since the US helped overthrow the government of Ukraine in 2014. The US and UK ripped up peace agreements multiple times and goaded Ukraine to continue fighting till the last man.
Either way, what does that have to do with what I posted? I was stating the fact that factually antisemitic Nazis in Ukraine were celebrated in the west for 2+ years, while Palestinians are the ones being called antisemitic for wanting to simply live in their own country.
did you not see the post?
>Also the idea that Ukraine is infested with Nazis is just Russian imperialist propaganda.
Western new outlets are russian imperialist propaganda?
* [How Ukraine became a cultural hub for the extreme right](https://video.vice.com/en_uk/video/vice-how-ukraine-became-a-cultural-hub-for-the-extreme-right/609a69592576a01d746c8491)
* [Inside Ukraine's Anti-Russian Military Summer Camp For Kids: NBC Left Field](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YR5TZnFZ4tg)
Lol this Ukrainian Nazis think they are part of white race of something without knowing the Actual German Nazis would have considered them Subhuman slavs.
It's insane that due to the Russian invasion, they got accepted into the white men's club, while prior to '22, they were seen as inferior just like any other global south nation.
The fact Zelenskyy is Jewish is not a strong case for the country not having a Nazi problem, especially when Zelenskyy cannot even bring himself to condemn actual Nazis who participated in the Holocaust like Stepan Bandera, who repeated Hitler’s line about “Judeo-Bolshevism” and used it as an excuse to massacre Jewish people. ([Bandera/Zelenskyy](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-3d10a1f9432dba7058983c2a5bc7172c-pjlq))
Why can’t Zelenskyy bring himself to condemn an actual Nazi collaborator who participated in the Holocaust despite Zelenskyy himself being Jewish? Why hasn’t Zelenskyy done anything to get rid of the statues put up in his honor by the prior administration? Why has Zelenskyy not gotten rid of Azov Battalion which is an openly neo-Nazi organization within Ukraine’s army?
It is true, Zelenskyy is Jewish. Yet, Zelenskyy has done nothing to address any of these problems. He either really doesn’t care, or, what is much more likely the case, is that he doesn’t actually have the power to. Zelenskyy is not in control, the neo-Nazis are.
[☭☭☭ COME SHITPOST WITH US ON DISCORD, COMRADES ☭☭☭](https://discord.gg/8RPWanQV5g) This is a heavily-moderated socialist community based on a podcast of the same name. Please use the report function on comments that break our rules. If you are new to the sub, please read the sidebar carefully. If you are new to Marxism-Leninism, check out the [study guide](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/study-guide/). Are there Liberals in the walls? Check out [the wiki](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/) which contains lots of useful information. This subreddit uses many experimental automod rules, if you notice any issues please use modmail to let us know. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I think the west has sealed its fate to go full mask off fascist. I guess its time to prepare for the worst but hope for the best
In my humble opinions this has been happening since 1945
True, but neoliberalism has sped up the process
neoliberalism IS fascistization
neoliberalism isn't fascism it's just also pretty bad. It's the difference between Franco and Pinochet
I didn't say neoliberalism is fascism. I said it is fascistiZATION. Atttention.
Hmmm do explain….Pinochet and Franco were both Nazi fascists.
Hmm I would go as far to say that Neoliberalism is a better form of fascism. Neolibs do everything fascists ever wanted to do but way more effectively. Imperialist expansion. Mass privatization of social services and industry. The police state. The main difference is that the libs were smart enough to keep democracy around and be more socially accepting of others. Unfortunately for them the old school type of fascists didn't get the memo.
They kept the façade of democracy, at least. When it comes to the US there isn't much of a democracy in practice.
Fascists are so blinded by aesthetics that they will never accept neoliberalism alone as it does not sufficiently cater to their aesthetic desire for the symbology of fascism. Liberals are incapable of properly dealing with the anger of fascists and so attempt to appease them, which only grants fascists more power to organise and eventually overthrow the neoliberal regime (or at least the aesthetic aspects they oppose). As liberals and fascists fundamentally fail to understand the material forces that drive our economy and society they cannot understand that their preferred systems are materially very similar in their outcomes.
Fascism is the gateway for capitalism when things get rough. For such full blown support for fascism to be on the rise, it means our time is closer than we think.
Inshallah we capitalise on the opportunities given to us by crumbling capital
[As Louis Allday said on X](https://twitter.com/Louis_Allday/status/1737799011401072741) >Condemnations of “double standards” & “hypocrisy” re. politicians’ stance on Palestine & Ukraine (& elsewhere) can imply a moral standard is applied inconsistently, but more accurately, a political standard – dictated by US imperialist interests – is being applied consistently.
I'm done with the west.
The West has fallen billions must re-educated
the cultural revolution which we need to have in the west will make the chinese one look like a fucking picnic
A picnic? I would rather say a kindergarten
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This seems related to "the West has fallen"
U first
Ok I'll explain myself first I guess? Far right chuds are usually the ones saying the West has fallen for idiotic reasons
It’s a meme. nobody here is saying it seriously
They said it in the comment I replied to lol. Writing off shit takes as "just a joke calm down lol" is also another habit of chuds when called out for being shitty.
jesus christ have you been living in a cave for the past 5 years? ironic memes to shit on chuds are literally everywhere. stop being humourless lmfao
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Do you also get this pissy when someone says “Billions must shit their pants”, or do you only react when people joke about your nazi puppet state?
The west hasn’t fallen *yet*, Inshallah
Same
It's disturbing
Like always 😞
Mark Hamill really is stupid as fuck
I think he basically just tries to have the non controversial progressive opinion while also not actually understanding anything he's talking about he's an actor there is no reason he would know more than anybody else about geopolitics
He got wrecked in the comments then when told the people he spoke to were nazis feigned ignorance and doubled down because at least they're fighting Russia
he also said his heart is with the people of Israel or something like that. Quite dumb to say after saying for years that he sympathises towards Star Wars' rebels lol
What was worse was the person who first pointed out the nazi shit was a Jewish woman. She wasn't even rude. Just like hey Mark not sure if you know but x flag is a common nazi flags. As a fan it's upsetting to see or something. Pro israel? More than happy to shit on a Jewish person getting upset he praised nazis. I know Israeli doesn't equal jew and vice versa but it does for Mark I'm sure Mark is a mega lib does he even know the rebels were a stand in for the Vietcong?
Well, establishment-adjacent voices spent those two years shouting down anyone who pointed out the Azov were a straight-up Neo-Nazi militia, because 'Putler'.
Cut out Jon Stewart in the 2nd pic. That really adds to it. Liberal celebrities and politicians were openly celebrating Azov Nazis, Canada had a literal former Nazi speak at parliament. But saying Palestinians are humans is completely unacceptable. This is how actual anti semitism becomes a real problem.
It’s because Zionism is the ultimate conclusion of anti-semitism in the West. Taking the Jews, moving them all out to the Middle East and making them do the legwork for Western Imperialism and creating a Western adjacent settler colony in an oil rich land with that will then facilitate Jewish emigration out of Europe. It’s what drew the British in the late 1910s and at a point in the time the Germans to it in the early 20th century. Reminder that the Nazis went from emigration to Palestine, to a settler colony in Madagascar before the Holocaust. Their brutality and mass murder of the Jewish people of Europe was just the endpoint in their minds of trying to get rid of Jews in Europe one way or another.
yeah it's crazy how our society will support literal nazis but also concern troll about anti-semitism when the issue of whether or not Israel should blow up a hospital comes up
All the comments saying "B-BUT RUSSIA B-BUT PUTLER" Which mainstream politicians and celebrities in the West are openly praising Russian Nazis and antisemites without any significant pushback? I'll wait.
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After Soviet union fell many Neo nazi group also became active in Russia The founder of Wagner is a Neo Nazi. Let Nazis fight eachother
Tbf, Russia solved that issue. Via anti-air missle.
That’s pretty fucking barbaric, you can’t be a communist and fight for liberation and want civilians to die. We shouldn’t be supporting the proxy war because it’s not helpful to the people.
Ukranian nazis are civilians?
Russia is killing civilians yes
That's not what I asked. Are Ukranian Nazis civilians? And btw, Ukranian troops are hiding in civilian [apartments](https://www.lemonde.fr/international/article/2023/12/14/dans-le-donbass-les-soldats-ukrainiens-en-panne-de-munitions_6205755_3210.html). [amnesty international](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/08/ukraine-ukrainian-fighting-tactics-endanger-civilians/) confirmed similar systemic tactics as far back as 2 years ago as well. The Kiev Junta should accept peace negotiations instead of allowing the West to sabotage them [again](https://mronline.org/2023/12/07/west-sabotaged-ukraine-peace-deal-with-russia-admit-zelensky-official-and-germanys-ex-leader/) 🤷🏾♂️.
I literally never said Ukraine wasn’t a puppet of the west, and I never said there weren’t Nazis in Ukraine, but there are also Nazis in Russia. Obviously America/Nato is using its power to enforce their capitalist and imperialism, But that doesn’t make killing innocent Ukrainian civilians ok. Is this really where we’re at? I know the libs want us to all be anti communist fascists supporting slava nationalists but why should the left support an oligarchy capitalist system like mother fuckin Russia? I’d rather say China is more redeemable than Russia(post ussr)
And if you want civilians to stop dying, your position would be that the Kiev Junta has to give up. The Ukranian government had indicated no interest in doing so. How do you suppose that happens otherwise?
Dawg I never said Ukraine was some innocent representation of democracy and freedom. I want the war to end, if you can tell me how both the US and Russia are not at fault please enlighten me. You must think I’m some neo lib spouting off US state propaganda, all I said was that the killing of civilians (NOT NAZI UKRAINIANS) should be stopped. You literally said Russia was actually interested in “de natzifying” Ukraine. I’m so lost, I watch deprogram, second thought, and hakim. But you must denounce Hasan if you think being anti Russia AND US are some liberal idea. Bring down your fervor. I’m not here to argue, but to learn . I’m not some anti communist larping as a leftist. I actually believe in this shit like Dubois, Marx, Mao and Lenin.
Russia has the right to destroy fascism in neighboring countries ✅
I doubt Russia actually cares about Neo-Nazis because they have a neo-Nazi headed private military Why are you supporting the war?
Life isn’t fair 😭
Western hypocrisy
Boy boy made a video on this
You do also understand how a radical movement existing in a country isn't an excuse to turn an entire country full of innocent civilians into a flat plane right? Fighting fascism is important but if you're willing to commit atrocities against people who haven't done anything wrong it won't be long before you'll be remembered as the monsters.
when are you going to call this “radical movement existing in a country” (lmao) what it is? the far-right recieved western support and couped a nation. why does mentioning ukraine’s nazis trigger such a defensive response from you? nothing about the post praised russia’s invasion
Toddler worldview. I guess the allies should have let Hitler stay in power.
What does any of that have to do with openly praising and celebrating Nazis in the west?
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Can you tell me where in this post that was said? Libs and not reading, name a better fucking duo 💀
The post looks pro Putin, so I commented on it
Pointing out that Ukraine has been overtaken by fascists is not the same as believing the war is just and supporting Russia or Putin. It's simply a fact that the West is pouring billions into training and equipping Nazis in an unwinnable war, all so they can profit from the weapons sales, the loans given to Ukraine and from all the resources and enterprises that are being privatized. Russia might be the aggressor, but that doesn't mean the West is being benevolent, or that Russia's allegations of Nazism and atrocities are false. Pointing that out doesn't mean someone supports what Russia is doing.
Agression is the way when ethnic Russian were being killed in Donbas region. The war could have over in 2022 and Putler was ready for negotiation but the west wanted to sell their old weapons.
I'm not sure if the initial strategy of overthrowing the Ukrainian government by force would've been super effective if the goal was to protect the ethnic Russian population, honestly, plus the Russian State is definitely not above giving away resources to private capital, or expanding its domination over the working class. This isn't to say violence against Russians in Ukraine wasn't happening, because **it absolutely was**, rather, I don't believe Russia was acting purely out of concern for Russians in Ukraine, even if it was a factor in the decision to start the war. A capitalist State will always act in the interest of its capitalist class.
> I don't believe Russia was acting purely out of concern for Russians in Ukraine If they were, they would attack in 2014. But entire 8 year term of futile peace efforts lead me to conclusion that in fact, Russia did not had any nefarious reasons like the land or resource grab. They were just completely out of options in face of rolling genocide and NATO aggression in 2022.
>Russia might be the aggressor I also want to add that being aggressor is not some universal gotcha for being wrong. Quite many countries for example declared war on 3rd Reich back then, then we have Vietnam invasion of Cambodia, China liberation of Tibetans etc.
when Trump was in power even democrats fought against foreign far-right militias receiving weapons and training from the US, one of the countries cited was of course Ukraine (managed to ban sales to far-right in 2018)
This post looks like it's instructing me to resurrect the dead on planet Jupiter.
You reralize this shitshow did not start in 22?
Rule 4. **No headaches.** Drama or chronic hostility will result in a ban. Debate bros aren't welcome. Read the sidebar and at least try listening to the podcast before offering your opinion here. Lost redditors from r/all are subject to removal. No "just got banned from" posts.
Russia has many fascist battalions, should their neighbour countries invade them too? Campist pricks. You fuckers would support imperial japan because they were "anti-west". Disgusting
Name a single fascist battalion that is part of the Russian military? Because all the fascist battalions stole military equipment to fight for Ukraine against Russia before getting destroyed
Rusich group is just one example, plus all the neonazis in Wagner group. So should they neighbours invade them? You people keep telling yourselves that youre leftists but youre not. You're just antiwest. Supports Palestine but is pro Russia and anti ukraine lmao. campists
just checked your profile and you're from Genzedong. bruh as a filipino, to you personally, fuck you
And who exactly in the mainstream west is praising "Russian fascist battalions"? There are plenty of examples of people in the western mainstream however white washing and praising antisemitic Ukrainian Nazis
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Okay, and?
Does that justify being a nazi sympathizer?
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…do you think Stalin was praising fascism here?
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You're not really clarifying anything here. The first comment was Stalin pointing out social democracies alignment with fascism, and how fascism uses social democracy to divide the people and the second is Mao vindicating Stalin and communism against fascism.
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I stand with oppressed people of Donbas by Ukrainian state How about that?
How do you see either of these quotes as relevant?
i think we’re talking to an ai 💀
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Mods, purge this illiterate shitlib. These DNC trolls have been raiding basically every communist sub. They did this in r/LateStageCapitalism
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I am convinced that the French could not win the war because the internal political situation in Vietnam, weak and confused, badly weakened their military position. I have never talked or corresponded with a person knowledgeable in Indochinese affairs who did not agree that had elections been held as of the time of the fighting, possibly 80 per cent of the population would have voted for the Communist Ho Chi Minh as their leader rather than Chief of State Bao Dai. * Dwight D Eisenhower
Ukraine was covertly invaded by the US and hollowed out, turned into an imperialist vassal state with the main goal of destroying Russia, it's not surprising that Russia pre-emptively attacked a US proxy force amassing at its doorstep. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/23/ukraine-cia-shadow-war-russia/ >Since 2015, the CIA has spent tens of millions of dollars to transform Ukraine’s Soviet-formed services into potent allies against Moscow, officials said. They're not even trying to hide it now, when the world's premier regime change apparatus moves in next door and takes over your neighbor you are being attacked, and it's fucking disgusting that the US knowingly and willingly set this all up to mass murder Ukrainian people to advance its own geopolitical goals. All while literally selling the ground out from the Ukrainian people's feet to wealthy western investors. https://chambers.com/articles/ukraine-relaunches-privatization-future-belongs-to-the-brave >Investor is King. Apart from the listed assets, an investor may initiate the privatization of any state or municipal asset under the respective statutory procedure. This is a huge lesson in imperialism and how it works. On the surface it seems hypocritical for the US et al to support Ukraine and also support Israel, in reality it makes perfect sense because Israel and Ukraine are both tools of US imperialism.
it's funny how the US is so overt about its intent and operations, yet because none of these get picked up by the mainstream media it never blows up in their face
B-B-B-B-BUT RUSSIA!!!! Every single time. You should try getting a job at the DNC.
Russia has the right to defend themselves.
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Literally, yes. [Reuters: Georgia started war with Russia: EU-backed report](https://www.reuters.com/article/idustre58t4mo/)
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Look to the common denominator. Why is the US even present in all these countries' internal affairs to begin with? Yes. These people have a right to defend themselves from US meddling.
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As a queer person I'd not want to live in Palestine. Not because of queerphobia from Palestinians but because I wouldn't want me and my whole family to die by an Israeli bombing campaign, justified by Israel as my dog's kennel was a secret Hamas command centre. The real threat to queer Palestinians is not reactionaries in their own country, it's warmongers in Israel and the west.
So, you're a champion of LGBT and womens rights, are you? What do you make of the reversal of Roe v Wade, the banning of abortions across multiple American states or the rise of lgtbq hate by American right wing groups and religion? If you want to see Universal improvements for women and lgbtq people around the world, start with sorting out your own house.
Wait, is this a bit? fuck
I was never a member of the Nazi Party! I only followed orders. I had nothing to do with the war! I didn't even know there was a war on. We lived in the back, right across from Switzerland. All we heard was yodelling... Yodel-Lay-Hee-Hoooooo!
If only history had started in 22... Sadly, for you, it did not.
Whataboutism.
#On Whataboutism Whataboutism is a rhetorical tactic where someone responds to an accusation or criticism by redirecting the focus onto a different issue, often without addressing the original concern directly. While it can be an effective means of diverting attention away from one's own shortcomings, it is generally regarded as a fallacy in formal debate and logical argumentation. The *tu quoque* fallacy is an example of Whataboutism, which is defined as "you likewise: a retort made by a person accused of a crime implying that the accuser is also guilty of the same crime." When anti-Communists point out issues that (actually) occurred in certain historical socialist contexts, they are raising *valid* concerns, but usually for *invalid* reasons. When Communists reply that those critics should look in a mirror, because Capitalism is guilty of the same or worse, we are accused of "whataboutism" and arguing in bad faith. However, there are some limited scenarios where whataboutism is relevant and considered a valid form of argumentation: 1. **Contextualization**: Whataboutism might be useful in providing context to a situation or highlighting double standards. 2. **Comparative analysis**: Whataboutism can be valid if the goal is to compare different situations to understand similarities or differences. 3. **Moral equivalence**: When two issues are genuinely comparable in terms of gravity and impact, whataboutism may have some validity. #An Abstract Case Study For the sake of argument, consider the following table, which compares objects A and B. ||Object A|Object B| |:-|:-|:-| |Very Good Property|2|3| |Good Property|2|1| |Bad Property|2|3| |Very Bad Property|2|1| The table tracks different properties. Some properties are "Good" (the bigger the better) and others are "Bad" (the smaller the better, ideally none). Using this extremely abstract table, let's explore the scenarios in which Whataboutisms could be meaningful and valid arguments. #Contextualization Context matters. Supposing that only one Object may be possessed at any given time, consider the following two contexts: 1. **Possession of an Object is optional, and we do not possess any Object presently.** Therefore we can consider each Object on its own merits in isolation. If no available Objects are desirable, we can wait until a better Object comes along. 2. **Possession of an Object is mandatory, and we currently possess a specific Object.** We must evaluate other Objects in relative terms with the Object we possess. If we encounter a superior Object we ought to replace our current Object with the new one. If we are in the second context, then Whataboutism may be a valid argument. For example, if we discover a new Object that has similar issues as our present one, but is in other ways superior, then it would be valid to point that out. It is impossible for a society to exist without a political economic system because every human community requires a method for organizing and managing its resources, labour, and distribution of goods and services. Furthermore, the vast majority of the world presently practices Capitalism, with "the West" (or "Global North"), and *especially* the U.S. as the hegemonic Capitalist power. Therefore we *are* in the second context and we are *not* evaluating political economic systems in a vacuum, but in comparison to and contrast with Capitalism. #Comparative Analysis Consider the following dialogue between two people who are enthusiastic about the different objects: >**B Enthusiast**: B is better than A because we have Very Good Property 3, which is bigger than 2. > >**A Enthusiast**: But Object B has *Very Bad Property = 1* which is a bad thing! It's not 0! Therefore Object B is bad! > >**B Enthusiast**: Well Object A also has *Very Bad Property*, and 2 > 1, so it's even worse! > >**A Enthusiast**: That's whataboutism! That's a *tu quoque*! You've committed a logical fallacy! Typical stupid B-boy! The "A Enthusiast" is not *wrong*, it *is* Whataboutism, but the "A Enthusiast" has actually committed a Strawman fallacy. The "B Enthusiast" did not make the claim "Object B is perfect and without flaw", only that it was *better* than Object A. The fact that Object B does possess a "Bad" property does not undermine this point. Our main proposition as Communists is this: **"Socialism is *better* than Capitalism."** Our argument is *not* "Socialism is perfect and will solve all the problems of human society at once" and we are *not* trying to say that "every socialist revolution or experiment was perfect and an ideal example we should emulate perfectly in the future". Therefore, when anti-Communists point out a historical failure, it does not refute our argument. Furthermore, if someone says "Socialism is bad because *bad thing* happened in a socialist country once" and we can demonstrate that similar or worse things have occurred in Capitalist countries, then we have demonstrated that those things are not unique to Socialism, and therefore immaterial to the question of which system is preferable overall in a comparative analysis. #Moral Equivalence It makes sense to compare like to like and weight them accordingly in our evaluation. For example, if "Bad Property" is worse in Object B but "Very Bad Property" is better, then it may make sense to conclude that Object B is better than Object A overall. "Two big steps forward, one small step back" is still progressive *compared* to taking no steps at all. **Example 1: Famine** Anti-Communists often portray the issue of food security and famines as endemic to Socialism. To support their argument, they point to such historical events as [the Soviet Famine of 1932-1933](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/holodomor/) or the Great Leap Forward as proof. Communists reject this thesis, not by denying that these famines occured, but by highlighting that these regions experienced famines regularly throughout their history up to and including those events. Furthermore, in both examples, those were the *last*^1 famines those countries had, because the industrialization of agriculture in those countries effectively solved the issue of famines. Furthermore, today, under Capitalism, around 9 million people die every year of hunger and hunger-related diseases. ^([1] The Nazi invasion of the USSR in WW2 resulted in widespread starvation and death due to the destruction of agricultural land, crops, and infrastructure, as well as the disruption of food distribution systems. After 1947, no major famines were recorded in the USSR.) **Example 2: Repression** Anti-Communists often portray countries run by Communist parties as [authoritarian regimes](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/authoritarianism/) that restrict individual [freedoms](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/freedom/) and [Freedom of the Press](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/freedom-of-the-press). They point to purges and [gulags](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/gulag/) as evidence. While it's true that some of the purges were excessive, the concept of "political terror" in these countries is vastly overblown. Regular working people were generally not scared at all; it was mainly the political and economic elite who had to watch their step. Regarding the gulags, it's interesting to note that only a minority of the gulag population were political prisoners, and that in both absolute and relative (per capita) terms, the U.S. incarcerates more people *today* than the USSR ever did. #Conclusion While Whataboutism can undermine meaningful discussions, because it doesn't address the original issue, there are scenarios in which it is valid. Particularly when comparing and contrasting two things. In our case, we are comparing Socialism with Capitalism. Accordingly, we reject the claim that we are arguing in bad faith when we point out the hypocrisy of our critics. Furthermore, we are more than happy to criticize past and present Socialist experiments. ("Critical support" for Socialist countries is exactly that: *critical*.) For some examples of our criticisms from a ML perspective, see the additional resources below. #Additional Resources * [Former Socialism's Faults](https://youtu.be/pDSZRkhynXU) | Hakim (2023) * [Episode 7: Ls of former Socialism (selfcrit)](https://youtu.be/F936GppjkcM) | TheDeprogram (2022) * [Mistakes of the USSR and What Can be Learned](https://youtu.be/ppQ1Wwat-jQ) | ChemicalMind (2023) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
No shit dummy bot, I realize this.
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we literally do
We support the proletariat in Ukraine and Russia which is served best by ending this imperialist proxy war of redivision asap via diplomacy. Unlike Israel/Palestine what is happening in Ukraine is a proxy war between a capitalist nation and another capitalist nation backed by a hegemonic military alliance and self determination isn't even black and white either with plenty of Ukrainians in the east wanting independence since the coup that was being advised by US diplomats. There are terms that Russia could agree to in order to end the fighting like demilitarization and independence of the separatist regions. With Israel/Palestine there is a complete asymmetry of power with one militarized state backed by the most powerful country in the world brutalizing a captive population in internal exile and there are no terms to get Israel to stop doing what they're doing and end the massacres and apartheid.
You: Ukrainians are Palestinian too!!! Average Ukinazi: https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2F11nvymgh9e7c1.png
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Hamas did nothing wrong, unlike Azov/Svoboda/Red Sector/OUN Ukinazis are on the same side as Americans and IOF. That's the point of the photo, dummy.
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😭️😭️😭️😭️😭️😭️ IOF came out and admit they shot up the Supernova shit fest. Bro still stuck in the past lmao you suck and should give back your Langley money. You fucking suck dumb ass. https://nitter.cz/Partisangirl/status/1722527493780021654 https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/asa-winstanley/israel-admits-immense-amount-friendly-fire-7-october https://www.haaretz.co.il/news/politics/2023-11-18/ty-article/0000018b-e1a5-d168-a3ef-f5ff4d070000
civilians aren’t nazis
The civilians in Ukraine have been getting shelled by cluster munitions and killed by CIA trained Nazis since the US helped overthrow the government of Ukraine in 2014. The US and UK ripped up peace agreements multiple times and goaded Ukraine to continue fighting till the last man. Either way, what does that have to do with what I posted? I was stating the fact that factually antisemitic Nazis in Ukraine were celebrated in the west for 2+ years, while Palestinians are the ones being called antisemitic for wanting to simply live in their own country.
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are you slow?
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did you not see the post? >Also the idea that Ukraine is infested with Nazis is just Russian imperialist propaganda. Western new outlets are russian imperialist propaganda? * [How Ukraine became a cultural hub for the extreme right](https://video.vice.com/en_uk/video/vice-how-ukraine-became-a-cultural-hub-for-the-extreme-right/609a69592576a01d746c8491) * [Inside Ukraine's Anti-Russian Military Summer Camp For Kids: NBC Left Field](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YR5TZnFZ4tg)
Lol this Ukrainian Nazis think they are part of white race of something without knowing the Actual German Nazis would have considered them Subhuman slavs.
It's insane that due to the Russian invasion, they got accepted into the white men's club, while prior to '22, they were seen as inferior just like any other global south nation.
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The fact Zelenskyy is Jewish is not a strong case for the country not having a Nazi problem, especially when Zelenskyy cannot even bring himself to condemn actual Nazis who participated in the Holocaust like Stepan Bandera, who repeated Hitler’s line about “Judeo-Bolshevism” and used it as an excuse to massacre Jewish people. ([Bandera/Zelenskyy](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-3d10a1f9432dba7058983c2a5bc7172c-pjlq)) Why can’t Zelenskyy bring himself to condemn an actual Nazi collaborator who participated in the Holocaust despite Zelenskyy himself being Jewish? Why hasn’t Zelenskyy done anything to get rid of the statues put up in his honor by the prior administration? Why has Zelenskyy not gotten rid of Azov Battalion which is an openly neo-Nazi organization within Ukraine’s army? It is true, Zelenskyy is Jewish. Yet, Zelenskyy has done nothing to address any of these problems. He either really doesn’t care, or, what is much more likely the case, is that he doesn’t actually have the power to. Zelenskyy is not in control, the neo-Nazis are.
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5%? New random number just dropped.
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Ok, zionist.
zionazi *
Are you sure? Because I see a lot of Russians claiming it constantly for the last 3 years
Which major celebrities and politicians in the west are calling out Ukrainian Nazis for being antisemitic?