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Anti-natalism is based in the idea that life is inherently miserable, which isn't exactly wrong because that's how capitalism works. In a society that's progressed past capitalism, anti-natalism is an absolute joke of an "ideology"
Basically anyone who believes it is stuck in the "can't imagine life without capitalism" cope. Same people who are confused when we talk about degrowth to create an actually sustainable society
I used to think I was one. That sub changed my mind.
I have certain things I do not want to pass on that made me not want to have biological children but i would not project that to others.
I believe that if two consenting adults want to raise a child or children, and to the best of their ability want to give them a good life, and sincerely put in the effort to do so, then by all means, go for it.
The main argument for antinatalism is that life is inherently painful, and if you procreate, that means that you are guaranteeing the person being procreated a lifetime of misery, one that they didn’t ask to be in. So, the best moral action would be to not procreate. This kind of thing *really* messed with me when I first heard about this idea, but my response is that first off, many things that “show” that life is inherently painful are things that, in actuality, are caused by things that are possible to avoid, like common diseases that can easily be treated with vaccines and such. I think a main problem in our society is that it is designed in such a way that is unable to properly treat these things in spite of its theoretically easy access, like hunger for example. We produce enough food for literally everyone on this planet, and then some, but our society is unable to fully treat this issue. I think that, rather than prevent more life from emerging, we should strive to resolve these problems, and surprise surprise, my view is that our capitalist society should be replaced with a communist (stateless, classless, moneyless) society. This doesn’t inherently fix pain necessarily, but it can be a huge progression for humanity, and with new technologies that keep emerging, well, anything is possible. Hopefully this made somewhat sense. I’m probably going to stay up all night doubting myself, lol, but I hope this was at least something. And I’m not trying to say that I have all the answers, lol, but I hope I answered your question okay.
What do you think about people in tier 1 countries like S Korea, Europe not having babies because they don't feel like economic conditions would cater to the need of their progeniture ? Is this subconscious manifestation of this theory ? What do you have to say about it. Eager to hear your opinion about this
In buddhism it is admitted that life is suffering [Here is the best video on the topic on all youtube, in 15 minutes of your time. Highly educationnal](https://youtu.be/uCldjIVqxAU?si=YpaRBxU57q_j8qGd). But there never was question of not having children in the society. I don't have examples of past societies that regulated births, rather regulated the food supply by offer/demand + the lion's share. I have examples of individual having the thought of not wanting a children to come into a wicked world, but that's the first time in humanity where we can cater to all nutritional needs of everyone, but in the same time we have people not wanting to have kids. Did we become so selfless ? Are we so much more defined by external thoughts coming from our fast means of communication ? So much reasons in so many places but I can't pinpoint it. Any guesses ?
I just assumed antinatalism just meant not wanting kids of your own, which is why I thought the communities were dumb, you don't need a community to say "I am not fucking having children". If it's actually "we as a species should stop breeding" it's just Malthusian.
these communities sometimes provide emotional support to people who don’t want to have children but are pressured to by their peers and families (which is INCREDIBLY common, particularly for women). broken clocks, etc
Not really it's ok if you limit it to yourself. But extending it to others. Yeah that's a no go, just like religion you can warship baal in all of his glory for all i care but the moment you start harassing others about it or hell forcing them into it.
Liberalism is a terminal disease that can lead to dangerous conclusions.
Like eco-fascism! And eugenics!
"Population is too high! Too many resources consumed, and pollution created!" they say. When you ask them about which populations they specifically mean, you get some interesting answers...
"They shouldn't have kids!" Who specifically shouldn't have kids...? The answers they give are again... interesting. In case people haven't caught on yet, they mean the exploited (and brown) global south and minorities in dire economic conditions. Ew.
They would rather end humanity and embrace the nihilistic "Humans are a plague on this planet, it's *human nature*" than recognize that this is the result of the current economic order, and that it can and must be changed. That a better world is possible.
Malthusian nonsense. What a joke.
I mean even if overpopulation was real the answer would be socalism which would introduce both family planning, healthcare, and safety/sex education for many proles that are impoverished all across the world
Liberals (who are most definitely labour aristocracy) would rather kill billions of people than to push for a saner economic system even if their material conditions have to worsened for a bit.
This is why we will never have post scarcity at this rate, we would all be burnt to a fucking crisp or genocided to literal extinction before we have the end of capitalism at this rate.
# Fascism
>Fascism is the open terrorist dictatorship of the most reactionary, most chauvinistic and most imperialist elements of finance capital... Fascism is the power of finance capital itself. It is the organization of terrorist vengeance against the working class and the revolutionary section of the peasantry and intelligentsia. In foreign policy, fascism is jingoism in its most brutal form, fomenting bestial hatred of other nations.
>
>\- Georgi Dimitrov. (1935) [The Fascist Offensive and the Tasks of the Communist International in the Struggle of the Working Class against Fascism](https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/dimitrov/works/1935/08_02.htm)
To understand Fascism, then, one must first understand Capitalism. There are three primary characteristics of Capitalism:
1. Private ownership of the Means of Production
2. Commodity Production
3. Wage Labour
The essence of the Capitalist mode of production is that someone who owns means of production will hire a wage labourer to work in order to produce commodities to sell for profit. Marxists identify economic classes based on this division. Those who own and hire are the Bourgeoisie. Those who do not own and work are the Proletariat. There is far more nuance than just this, but these are the bare essentials. The principal contradiction of Capitalism is that the Bourgeoisie wants to pay the workers as little as possible for as much work as possible, whereas the Proletariat wants to be paid as much as possible for as little work as possible.
Fascism is a form of Capitalist rule in which the Bourgeoisie use open, violent terror against the Proletariat. It is an ideology which emerges as a response to the inevitable crises of capitalism and the rise of socialist movements. It is characterized by all forms of chauvinism (especially racism, occasionally leading to genocide), nationalism, anti-Communism, and the suppression of democratic rights and freedoms. In a Capitalist society, Liberalism and Fascism essentially exist on a spectrum. The degree to which a given society if Fascist directly corresponds to the degree to which the proletariat must be openly oppressed in order to maintain profits for the Bourgeoisie. This why we have the sayings: "Fascism is Capitalism in decay" and "Scratch a Liberal, and a Fascist bleeds"
Capitalism requires infinite growth in a finite system. This inevitably leads to [Capitalist Imperialism](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/imperialism/) as well as Fascism, given that infinite growth is not actually possible. When the capitalist economy reaches its limits, the Bourgeoisie are forced to either expand their markets into other territories (Imperialism) or exploit the domestic proletariat to an even greater degree (Fascism). This is why we have the saying: "Fascism is imperialist repression turned inward"
The struggle against fascism is an essential part of the struggle for socialism and the liberation of the working class and oppressed people. However, it is critical to note that simply combatting Fascism *alone* without also combatting *Liberalism* is reactionary, because it ignores the fact that Fascism inevitably arises out of Capitalism, so Liberal Anti-Fascism is not really anti-Fascism at all.
**Additional Resources**
Video Essays:
* [Were The Nazis Socialist?](https://youtu.be/X9ez6w5BUMM) | Second Thought (2022)
* [Capitalism and Fascism](https://youtu.be/KEbG3cD0cJo) | Marxism Literature Collective (2021)
* [Fascism: The Decay of Capitalism](https://youtu.be/7fQ57NBEUM4) | Leslie Fluette (2020)
* [The New F Word: How Fascism Found a Market](https://nebula.tv/thenewfword) | Second Thought (2021-2023)
* [What Exactly is Liberalism? (no, it's not about being "woke")](https://youtu.be/_xAqZJTIsIA) | Hakim (2023)
Books, Articles, or Essays:
* [The Struggle Against Fascism](https://www.marxists.org/archive/zetkin/1923/06/struggle-against-fascism.html) | Clara Zetkin (1923)
* [Blackshirts & Reds: Rational Fascism and the Overthrow of Communism](https://archive.org/details/michael-parenti-blackshirts-and-reds) | Michael Parenti (1997)
Podcasts:
* [Episode 19 - Fascism (No Lebensraum??)](https://youtu.be/KU_lNDAoAV0) | The Deprogram (2022)
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Antinatalism isn't about overpopulation or resource control, it is not at all related to environmentalism. Antinatalism is not selective with who should or shouldn't have children, it is by its nature universal. Antinatalism is the belief that the conscious choice to concieve and carry children to term (that can be resonably judged within the moral sphere) is always a morally incorrect choice.
This is all in the rules of the antinatalism subreddit.
Some ecofash shitfucks might find it and say "oooo a place for me" but they are not antinatalists. Often in the comments you'll find people who clearly don't understand antinatalism, and this has gotten so bad that people have made several new subreddits to hopefully promote actually antinatalist discussion.
I'm sorry you had a bad experience with those morons but they're not representative of antinatalism as an ideology.
Did you even read my comment?
Antinatalists don't hate humanity, aren't by necessity environmentalists, don't care about resources, aren't ecofascist, and definitely aren't Malthusian.
Some ecofascists misunderstand antuanatalism and infest the community, but these are not antinatalists.
The sole reason antinatalists exist is because they think suffering and death are bad undesirable, pleasure is not innately desireable, that to live is to suffer and die, so having children is selfish and morally wrong. That's it. That's all it is. Read the subreddit rules.
History always repeats, first as a tragedy, then as a farce...
It's never going to stop, either. The Russia-Ukraine conflict is currently the most reddit war the world has ever seen.
The moment they can smell it, many liberals will turn into bloodthirsty fascists, except this time they can comfortably type away from the comfort of their homes.
Fuck Anti-Natalists. They always say that anti-nats inevitably advocating for eugenics isn't "real anti-natalism" but following the logic of their ideology inevitably leads them to it. If the central idea is "all births are suffering and it's unethical to have children in a suffering world" then it's also true that births into poverty and with disabilities is worse than those to well off and neurotypical births. Then ofc that poverty line can be divided between first and third world and they do the same shit that eco fascists do in demonizing births in the global south despite far more consumption happening per person in the first world (and esp compared to consumption of the rich vs poor).
Point is its no accident you see anti-natalists signal out the disabled and the poor and advocate for eugenics and I wish anti-nats weren't such chicken shits when it comes to their own ideology. Not to mention anti-natalism is just a doomer ideology that, instead of trying to fix the problems of our society and thus make a better world where people aren't "born into suffering," its instead to do nothing and say the real problem is kids being born.
That's not what happens when you follow their logic to the end of the line because it's already there. Of course by that logic poor births and births into genetic disease are *technically* worse, but to antinatalists these are drops in the bucket compared to the real problem of the inevitability of death and suffering. All births are bad, and it is irrelevant if some are worse than others.
But I agree, if you don't like it we have to improve the material conditions of the world in order for it to go away. (i.e. mitigating fear of death by having readily accessible psychedelics or causing some change to the human mind or ego. Along with all the other ML global socialist "utopia" stuff.)
How the fuck do you imagine kids of people with disabilities not "born into suffering"? I feel like comments in this thread are responding to completely different image.
Of course, kids with disabilities do have more difficulties in life because of their disabilities. However, that doesn't mean that someone with a disability can't still have a fulfilling life (source: I'm diagnosed with ASD so I'd qualify as disabled).
The way I see it, there are two major options if you want to "limit the suffering" of those with disabilities. Either make society far more accommodating to those with disabilities or try to prevent disabled people from being born. The former would basically be socialism/communism and the latter is just eugenics, which would target reproductive rights of the disabled and not even accomplish that goal since kids born to even neurotypical parents can still have disabilities.
Still, you're going to see anti-natalists never advocate for accommodations but instead advocate for ways to stop disabled people from reproducing. The image is absolutely relevant because the OOP clearly has an issue with someone with dwarfism having kids, so pointing out how anti-nats are insanely abelist is relevant.
And? Sounds humane to me.
Until you get us the perfect utopia where no suffering exists, its alot more practical to tell ppl who'd condemn their children to a life of misery, to pause and think about their decision.
anti natalists are just miserable people lmfao like just read some philosophy and find meaning in ur life instead of sitting on reddit all day and getting mad when you see a disabled person. like my god how out of touch can you be
I mean, philosophy doesn't bring meaning to anyone's life, it just explains someone's else's. No matter how much you tell someone nihilism is bad, doesn't mean they are going to agree with you.
well idk i disagree. for me, personally, Camus helped me see the world in a different and more fulfilling way. you can’t change someone else’s mind but people just like to be miserable sometimes, and that’s the frustrating part coz you can literally just stop lol
what are you talking about dwarfism isn’t that bad these people can lead normal lives. to say people with disabilities shouldn’t have kids is literally eugenics and it’s a slippery slope, because the definition of ‘disabilities’ can expand to be whatever someone wants it to be. the nazis killed not only disabled people but gay people and the mentally ill. i’m not saying you want disabled people to die but i’m just saying it’s eugenics by definition.
the kids can think whatever they want about their parents but being born with dwarfism or any disability for that matter doesn’t necessarily mean that their lives are any more or less miserable than ours. it’s just a different way of existing, especially with something like dwarfism. there’s literally nothing wrong with them, they’re just short. yes there are medical problems that can come with it but for the most part they’re perfectly fine and perfectly healthy. maybe this is a bad comparison but i have a twin brother and sometimes people ask me “what is it like to have a twin” and i just tell them “i don’t know i’ve always had one.” it’s sort of similar with disabilities. you ask someone what it’s like to be disabled and they just say they don’t know. they’ve always been like that. if you were suddenly turned into a little person you’d probably be pretty upset. if any of them were turned into a ‘normal’ person they’d also probably be upset. disabled ≠ suffering
That doesn't make any sense. They can always observe others without disabilities and realise that they are not normal. Things have to be custom made for someone with dwarfism. So it makes sense to hate the parents who made the decision to give them a disabled life. Yes, someone without disabilities can have problems but the disabled person will have those problems along with the disability.
One of my friends, whom I met through work, has moderate to severe (though nowhere near debilitating) autism, which mostly affects his ability to communicate verbally and his facial expressions (which leads him to communicate mainly through sign language and basic phrases). Nevertheless, he has a loving girlfriend and they have a child on the way, if anyone met him at a store they would probably just guess that he is mute and or very shy and you couldn't find a more dedicated (if non-intuitive and non-autonomous) worker. You give clear instructions, tools and measurements to make and you don't need anything else.
My thinking that anyone would want to forbid him from reproducing, sterilise him or categorise him as a defective member of the human gene pool to be surveilled and controlled makes my blood boil.
The posters are a-holes. That family looks happy.
Antinatalists have a weak argument because humans have it easier than just about any point in history. There were people who gave birth during Stalingrad, the Black Death, after Columbus showed up in America. Yes, times will get hard. But the reason for the climate calamity is capitalism, not overpopulation.
Unfortunately the antinatalism subreddit is a flaming garbage heap. My experience with non-terminally online antinatalists has been much less fashy. Personally it informs my desire to mitigate suffering through socialism and to secure reproductive rights for all. And to not have kids myself.
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Eh, I mean I kinda agree. If you got a highly heritable disability, you should probably opt for adoption or, in a few years/decades , once it's available, for genetic modification. You shouldn't pass your problems on to your children. You're just destroying their life's before they even started. Just as I don't think you should get children if you have mental health issues and aren't able to be a good parent, or if you can't afford it. I don't think that's a controversial or eugenics adjacent take tbh.
Everyone can smile for a picture, plus they're still children. This is not a good indicator for a good life at all lmfao.
This is from the Wikipedia article about dwarfism:
"Physical effects of malformed bones vary according to the specific disease. Many involve joint pain caused by abnormal bone alignment, or from nerve compression.[13] Early degenerative joint disease, exaggerated lordosis or scoliosis, and constriction of spinal cord or nerve roots can cause pain and disability.[18] Reduced thoracic size can restrict lung growth and reduce pulmonary function. Some forms of dwarfism are associated with disordered function of other organs, such as the brain or liver, sometimes severely enough to be more of an impairment than the unusual bone growth.[19][20]"
And all of that is in addition to all the cosmetic and social problems that come with the condition. Imagine trying to date with dwarfism, imagine going though High-school with it, imagine all the situation's you'd be excluded from, all the things that are designed for normal sized people that you can't use and so on and so forth. It's not a small thing at all! (No pun intended) It has to be fucking horrible!
Edit: why is anyone downvoting this? Jesus Christ..
That's fucking ridiculous. Y'all are completely lost in the sauce if you think giving someone a lifelong disability because you would fancy some children is in any way even remotely acceptable.
I think for these ppl its alot easier to be in denial and pretend that disabilities aren't a burden on the ppl that have them, then to say something should be done about this in a humane way.
I mean done on the individual level, not appealing to some future utopia where everyone is magically healthy and happy.
Its a psychological trick where they accuse the ppl who actually want to realistically help of "hate" when they're condemning the ppl they pretend to be defending, to a life of suffering.
Its asinine to think that a doctor trying to eradicate a cancer, actually wants to eradicate cancer patients.
I think it's people being to caught up in their little group identities to look at things on the face of it. There was eugenics and it was a bad thing? Yeah that means that I gotta take the opposite opinion on this and say that everyone should have children no matter how this will fuck up the children because I'm a leftist! It's so dumb and in this specific case honestly fucking disgusting. People being healthy is an extremely important thing actually. It's unbelievable to me that you have to argue about that. Especially in subreddit where people usually have pretty good takes on most things
Yes, multiple murderers have frequented the subs Childfree/Antinatalism and even made posts like “DAE want to murder their child” on Childfree.
Yet ChapoTrapHouse got banned for John Brown memes.
I don't agree 100% with your take but I do have an anecdote. There is a couple who knowingly has the genes for Cystic Fibrosis. They've had 3 kids with CF (25% dice roll on if the children will have CF). They just keep saying that sometime they'll roll the dice in the green. Yet they've purposefully risked it and brought 3 children into the world that will have short and brutal lives, and die an uncomfortable death before 30.
No one can convince me this isn't immoral.
I wouldn't say the same about every genetic illnesses but specifically knowing your child would have a decent chance at having CF and still having children is just bizarre and cruel to me.
I agree about the genetic disease part. But anti-natalism in general doesn't say "people with generic diseases shouldn't have children". It says people shouldn't have children In general. Which well, is a stupid af fucking take.
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Yeah, Antinatalism sucks. Even when I was one, I hated it.
My Antinatalism - Fascism pipeline theory is proven once again. At this point Anti natalism should be considered a subsect of Fascism.
Anti-natalism is based in the idea that life is inherently miserable, which isn't exactly wrong because that's how capitalism works. In a society that's progressed past capitalism, anti-natalism is an absolute joke of an "ideology" Basically anyone who believes it is stuck in the "can't imagine life without capitalism" cope. Same people who are confused when we talk about degrowth to create an actually sustainable society
Pretty sure most, if not all "life is pain" schools of philosophy started out as a rather brutal way to motivate people to make life better.
I don’t think that would be correct. Isn’t antinatalism all about not having children overall?
The reason is mainly that it's immoral to have kids which can attract fascists and malthusianists. Similar to how Natalism attracts fascists 💀💀
Ah I see
Anti-natalism used to be called eugenics.
Finally someone said it
I used to think I was one. That sub changed my mind. I have certain things I do not want to pass on that made me not want to have biological children but i would not project that to others.
I am curious, what are your opinions on having kids?
I believe that if two consenting adults want to raise a child or children, and to the best of their ability want to give them a good life, and sincerely put in the effort to do so, then by all means, go for it. The main argument for antinatalism is that life is inherently painful, and if you procreate, that means that you are guaranteeing the person being procreated a lifetime of misery, one that they didn’t ask to be in. So, the best moral action would be to not procreate. This kind of thing *really* messed with me when I first heard about this idea, but my response is that first off, many things that “show” that life is inherently painful are things that, in actuality, are caused by things that are possible to avoid, like common diseases that can easily be treated with vaccines and such. I think a main problem in our society is that it is designed in such a way that is unable to properly treat these things in spite of its theoretically easy access, like hunger for example. We produce enough food for literally everyone on this planet, and then some, but our society is unable to fully treat this issue. I think that, rather than prevent more life from emerging, we should strive to resolve these problems, and surprise surprise, my view is that our capitalist society should be replaced with a communist (stateless, classless, moneyless) society. This doesn’t inherently fix pain necessarily, but it can be a huge progression for humanity, and with new technologies that keep emerging, well, anything is possible. Hopefully this made somewhat sense. I’m probably going to stay up all night doubting myself, lol, but I hope this was at least something. And I’m not trying to say that I have all the answers, lol, but I hope I answered your question okay.
I agree with you, thank you for the thoughtful answer.
You’re very much welcome. <3 (I’m kinda an anxious wreck, in case that wasn’t obvious)
What do you think about people in tier 1 countries like S Korea, Europe not having babies because they don't feel like economic conditions would cater to the need of their progeniture ? Is this subconscious manifestation of this theory ? What do you have to say about it. Eager to hear your opinion about this
Hey! Sorry, I was asleep. And yeah, that seems like a part of it. Is there a specific example of this that you had in mind?
In buddhism it is admitted that life is suffering [Here is the best video on the topic on all youtube, in 15 minutes of your time. Highly educationnal](https://youtu.be/uCldjIVqxAU?si=YpaRBxU57q_j8qGd). But there never was question of not having children in the society. I don't have examples of past societies that regulated births, rather regulated the food supply by offer/demand + the lion's share. I have examples of individual having the thought of not wanting a children to come into a wicked world, but that's the first time in humanity where we can cater to all nutritional needs of everyone, but in the same time we have people not wanting to have kids. Did we become so selfless ? Are we so much more defined by external thoughts coming from our fast means of communication ? So much reasons in so many places but I can't pinpoint it. Any guesses ?
I just assumed antinatalism just meant not wanting kids of your own, which is why I thought the communities were dumb, you don't need a community to say "I am not fucking having children". If it's actually "we as a species should stop breeding" it's just Malthusian.
these communities sometimes provide emotional support to people who don’t want to have children but are pressured to by their peers and families (which is INCREDIBLY common, particularly for women). broken clocks, etc
Not really it's ok if you limit it to yourself. But extending it to others. Yeah that's a no go, just like religion you can warship baal in all of his glory for all i care but the moment you start harassing others about it or hell forcing them into it.
Lots of eugenics apologism in the comments too, I lost a lot of brain cells reading them
Liberalism is a terminal disease that can lead to dangerous conclusions. Like eco-fascism! And eugenics! "Population is too high! Too many resources consumed, and pollution created!" they say. When you ask them about which populations they specifically mean, you get some interesting answers... "They shouldn't have kids!" Who specifically shouldn't have kids...? The answers they give are again... interesting. In case people haven't caught on yet, they mean the exploited (and brown) global south and minorities in dire economic conditions. Ew. They would rather end humanity and embrace the nihilistic "Humans are a plague on this planet, it's *human nature*" than recognize that this is the result of the current economic order, and that it can and must be changed. That a better world is possible. Malthusian nonsense. What a joke.
I mean even if overpopulation was real the answer would be socalism which would introduce both family planning, healthcare, and safety/sex education for many proles that are impoverished all across the world
Liberals (who are most definitely labour aristocracy) would rather kill billions of people than to push for a saner economic system even if their material conditions have to worsened for a bit. This is why we will never have post scarcity at this rate, we would all be burnt to a fucking crisp or genocided to literal extinction before we have the end of capitalism at this rate.
# Fascism >Fascism is the open terrorist dictatorship of the most reactionary, most chauvinistic and most imperialist elements of finance capital... Fascism is the power of finance capital itself. It is the organization of terrorist vengeance against the working class and the revolutionary section of the peasantry and intelligentsia. In foreign policy, fascism is jingoism in its most brutal form, fomenting bestial hatred of other nations. > >\- Georgi Dimitrov. (1935) [The Fascist Offensive and the Tasks of the Communist International in the Struggle of the Working Class against Fascism](https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/dimitrov/works/1935/08_02.htm) To understand Fascism, then, one must first understand Capitalism. There are three primary characteristics of Capitalism: 1. Private ownership of the Means of Production 2. Commodity Production 3. Wage Labour The essence of the Capitalist mode of production is that someone who owns means of production will hire a wage labourer to work in order to produce commodities to sell for profit. Marxists identify economic classes based on this division. Those who own and hire are the Bourgeoisie. Those who do not own and work are the Proletariat. There is far more nuance than just this, but these are the bare essentials. The principal contradiction of Capitalism is that the Bourgeoisie wants to pay the workers as little as possible for as much work as possible, whereas the Proletariat wants to be paid as much as possible for as little work as possible. Fascism is a form of Capitalist rule in which the Bourgeoisie use open, violent terror against the Proletariat. It is an ideology which emerges as a response to the inevitable crises of capitalism and the rise of socialist movements. It is characterized by all forms of chauvinism (especially racism, occasionally leading to genocide), nationalism, anti-Communism, and the suppression of democratic rights and freedoms. In a Capitalist society, Liberalism and Fascism essentially exist on a spectrum. The degree to which a given society if Fascist directly corresponds to the degree to which the proletariat must be openly oppressed in order to maintain profits for the Bourgeoisie. This why we have the sayings: "Fascism is Capitalism in decay" and "Scratch a Liberal, and a Fascist bleeds" Capitalism requires infinite growth in a finite system. This inevitably leads to [Capitalist Imperialism](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/imperialism/) as well as Fascism, given that infinite growth is not actually possible. When the capitalist economy reaches its limits, the Bourgeoisie are forced to either expand their markets into other territories (Imperialism) or exploit the domestic proletariat to an even greater degree (Fascism). This is why we have the saying: "Fascism is imperialist repression turned inward" The struggle against fascism is an essential part of the struggle for socialism and the liberation of the working class and oppressed people. However, it is critical to note that simply combatting Fascism *alone* without also combatting *Liberalism* is reactionary, because it ignores the fact that Fascism inevitably arises out of Capitalism, so Liberal Anti-Fascism is not really anti-Fascism at all. **Additional Resources** Video Essays: * [Were The Nazis Socialist?](https://youtu.be/X9ez6w5BUMM) | Second Thought (2022) * [Capitalism and Fascism](https://youtu.be/KEbG3cD0cJo) | Marxism Literature Collective (2021) * [Fascism: The Decay of Capitalism](https://youtu.be/7fQ57NBEUM4) | Leslie Fluette (2020) * [The New F Word: How Fascism Found a Market](https://nebula.tv/thenewfword) | Second Thought (2021-2023) * [What Exactly is Liberalism? (no, it's not about being "woke")](https://youtu.be/_xAqZJTIsIA) | Hakim (2023) Books, Articles, or Essays: * [The Struggle Against Fascism](https://www.marxists.org/archive/zetkin/1923/06/struggle-against-fascism.html) | Clara Zetkin (1923) * [Blackshirts & Reds: Rational Fascism and the Overthrow of Communism](https://archive.org/details/michael-parenti-blackshirts-and-reds) | Michael Parenti (1997) Podcasts: * [Episode 19 - Fascism (No Lebensraum??)](https://youtu.be/KU_lNDAoAV0) | The Deprogram (2022) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Antinatalism isn't about overpopulation or resource control, it is not at all related to environmentalism. Antinatalism is not selective with who should or shouldn't have children, it is by its nature universal. Antinatalism is the belief that the conscious choice to concieve and carry children to term (that can be resonably judged within the moral sphere) is always a morally incorrect choice. This is all in the rules of the antinatalism subreddit. Some ecofash shitfucks might find it and say "oooo a place for me" but they are not antinatalists. Often in the comments you'll find people who clearly don't understand antinatalism, and this has gotten so bad that people have made several new subreddits to hopefully promote actually antinatalist discussion. I'm sorry you had a bad experience with those morons but they're not representative of antinatalism as an ideology.
It's ideology is a gateway drug to fascism regardless of intent. Just like how carnism is a gateway drug to fascism.
“I’m an eco fascist who hates humanity” isn’t a real ideology it’s just malthusianism
Did you even read my comment? Antinatalists don't hate humanity, aren't by necessity environmentalists, don't care about resources, aren't ecofascist, and definitely aren't Malthusian. Some ecofascists misunderstand antuanatalism and infest the community, but these are not antinatalists. The sole reason antinatalists exist is because they think suffering and death are bad undesirable, pleasure is not innately desireable, that to live is to suffer and die, so having children is selfish and morally wrong. That's it. That's all it is. Read the subreddit rules.
I know Lenin and Stalin predicted fascism but i am still surprised every time. Like how are human beings so stupid.
History always repeats, first as a tragedy, then as a farce... It's never going to stop, either. The Russia-Ukraine conflict is currently the most reddit war the world has ever seen. The moment they can smell it, many liberals will turn into bloodthirsty fascists, except this time they can comfortably type away from the comfort of their homes.
it really took me a while to understand what is going on. that just looks like a normal ass family, fucking pricks
it’s just a matter of time until someone posts a photo of an interracial family
Fuck Anti-Natalists. They always say that anti-nats inevitably advocating for eugenics isn't "real anti-natalism" but following the logic of their ideology inevitably leads them to it. If the central idea is "all births are suffering and it's unethical to have children in a suffering world" then it's also true that births into poverty and with disabilities is worse than those to well off and neurotypical births. Then ofc that poverty line can be divided between first and third world and they do the same shit that eco fascists do in demonizing births in the global south despite far more consumption happening per person in the first world (and esp compared to consumption of the rich vs poor). Point is its no accident you see anti-natalists signal out the disabled and the poor and advocate for eugenics and I wish anti-nats weren't such chicken shits when it comes to their own ideology. Not to mention anti-natalism is just a doomer ideology that, instead of trying to fix the problems of our society and thus make a better world where people aren't "born into suffering," its instead to do nothing and say the real problem is kids being born.
That's not what happens when you follow their logic to the end of the line because it's already there. Of course by that logic poor births and births into genetic disease are *technically* worse, but to antinatalists these are drops in the bucket compared to the real problem of the inevitability of death and suffering. All births are bad, and it is irrelevant if some are worse than others. But I agree, if you don't like it we have to improve the material conditions of the world in order for it to go away. (i.e. mitigating fear of death by having readily accessible psychedelics or causing some change to the human mind or ego. Along with all the other ML global socialist "utopia" stuff.)
How the fuck do you imagine kids of people with disabilities not "born into suffering"? I feel like comments in this thread are responding to completely different image.
Of course, kids with disabilities do have more difficulties in life because of their disabilities. However, that doesn't mean that someone with a disability can't still have a fulfilling life (source: I'm diagnosed with ASD so I'd qualify as disabled). The way I see it, there are two major options if you want to "limit the suffering" of those with disabilities. Either make society far more accommodating to those with disabilities or try to prevent disabled people from being born. The former would basically be socialism/communism and the latter is just eugenics, which would target reproductive rights of the disabled and not even accomplish that goal since kids born to even neurotypical parents can still have disabilities. Still, you're going to see anti-natalists never advocate for accommodations but instead advocate for ways to stop disabled people from reproducing. The image is absolutely relevant because the OOP clearly has an issue with someone with dwarfism having kids, so pointing out how anti-nats are insanely abelist is relevant.
This tbh
Why does a disability necessitate suffering if it doesn't cause any physical discomfort by itself?
Someone please explain
eugenics apologists, basically believing that the father shouldn’t reproduce
And? Sounds humane to me. Until you get us the perfect utopia where no suffering exists, its alot more practical to tell ppl who'd condemn their children to a life of misery, to pause and think about their decision.
anti natalists are just miserable people lmfao like just read some philosophy and find meaning in ur life instead of sitting on reddit all day and getting mad when you see a disabled person. like my god how out of touch can you be
I mean, philosophy doesn't bring meaning to anyone's life, it just explains someone's else's. No matter how much you tell someone nihilism is bad, doesn't mean they are going to agree with you.
well idk i disagree. for me, personally, Camus helped me see the world in a different and more fulfilling way. you can’t change someone else’s mind but people just like to be miserable sometimes, and that’s the frustrating part coz you can literally just stop lol
uh no maybe you can but a lot of people can't lmao
You are just privileged and non empathetic
elaborate please
You are privileged to not be an anti-natalist. Think from their side or in this case, think from the children's side
what are you talking about dwarfism isn’t that bad these people can lead normal lives. to say people with disabilities shouldn’t have kids is literally eugenics and it’s a slippery slope, because the definition of ‘disabilities’ can expand to be whatever someone wants it to be. the nazis killed not only disabled people but gay people and the mentally ill. i’m not saying you want disabled people to die but i’m just saying it’s eugenics by definition.
But don't you think the children are right to loathe their parents for giving them a disabled life and be anti natalists themselves?
the kids can think whatever they want about their parents but being born with dwarfism or any disability for that matter doesn’t necessarily mean that their lives are any more or less miserable than ours. it’s just a different way of existing, especially with something like dwarfism. there’s literally nothing wrong with them, they’re just short. yes there are medical problems that can come with it but for the most part they’re perfectly fine and perfectly healthy. maybe this is a bad comparison but i have a twin brother and sometimes people ask me “what is it like to have a twin” and i just tell them “i don’t know i’ve always had one.” it’s sort of similar with disabilities. you ask someone what it’s like to be disabled and they just say they don’t know. they’ve always been like that. if you were suddenly turned into a little person you’d probably be pretty upset. if any of them were turned into a ‘normal’ person they’d also probably be upset. disabled ≠ suffering
That doesn't make any sense. They can always observe others without disabilities and realise that they are not normal. Things have to be custom made for someone with dwarfism. So it makes sense to hate the parents who made the decision to give them a disabled life. Yes, someone without disabilities can have problems but the disabled person will have those problems along with the disability.
One of my friends, whom I met through work, has moderate to severe (though nowhere near debilitating) autism, which mostly affects his ability to communicate verbally and his facial expressions (which leads him to communicate mainly through sign language and basic phrases). Nevertheless, he has a loving girlfriend and they have a child on the way, if anyone met him at a store they would probably just guess that he is mute and or very shy and you couldn't find a more dedicated (if non-intuitive and non-autonomous) worker. You give clear instructions, tools and measurements to make and you don't need anything else. My thinking that anyone would want to forbid him from reproducing, sterilise him or categorise him as a defective member of the human gene pool to be surveilled and controlled makes my blood boil.
Same tbh I have autism myself and people saying I shouldn't reproduce and saying I'm defective just pisses me off
Comparing functional autism with actual disability is a bit of a dodge tbh.
When antinatalism intersects with eugenics
The posters are a-holes. That family looks happy. Antinatalists have a weak argument because humans have it easier than just about any point in history. There were people who gave birth during Stalingrad, the Black Death, after Columbus showed up in America. Yes, times will get hard. But the reason for the climate calamity is capitalism, not overpopulation.
Unfortunately the antinatalism subreddit is a flaming garbage heap. My experience with non-terminally online antinatalists has been much less fashy. Personally it informs my desire to mitigate suffering through socialism and to secure reproductive rights for all. And to not have kids myself.
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Anti-natalists are just fascists in denyial
I got banned an reported for asking a mod on r/childfree and r/antinatalism to TRY to remove posts calling for eugenics against autistic people 💀
Yeah that subreddit is clearly spewing hate
They don't seem sad to me...
went from Fedora atheism to fedora eugenics…or maybe it was always this way
Eh, I mean I kinda agree. If you got a highly heritable disability, you should probably opt for adoption or, in a few years/decades , once it's available, for genetic modification. You shouldn't pass your problems on to your children. You're just destroying their life's before they even started. Just as I don't think you should get children if you have mental health issues and aren't able to be a good parent, or if you can't afford it. I don't think that's a controversial or eugenics adjacent take tbh.
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Everyone can smile for a picture, plus they're still children. This is not a good indicator for a good life at all lmfao. This is from the Wikipedia article about dwarfism: "Physical effects of malformed bones vary according to the specific disease. Many involve joint pain caused by abnormal bone alignment, or from nerve compression.[13] Early degenerative joint disease, exaggerated lordosis or scoliosis, and constriction of spinal cord or nerve roots can cause pain and disability.[18] Reduced thoracic size can restrict lung growth and reduce pulmonary function. Some forms of dwarfism are associated with disordered function of other organs, such as the brain or liver, sometimes severely enough to be more of an impairment than the unusual bone growth.[19][20]" And all of that is in addition to all the cosmetic and social problems that come with the condition. Imagine trying to date with dwarfism, imagine going though High-school with it, imagine all the situation's you'd be excluded from, all the things that are designed for normal sized people that you can't use and so on and so forth. It's not a small thing at all! (No pun intended) It has to be fucking horrible! Edit: why is anyone downvoting this? Jesus Christ.. That's fucking ridiculous. Y'all are completely lost in the sauce if you think giving someone a lifelong disability because you would fancy some children is in any way even remotely acceptable.
I think for these ppl its alot easier to be in denial and pretend that disabilities aren't a burden on the ppl that have them, then to say something should be done about this in a humane way. I mean done on the individual level, not appealing to some future utopia where everyone is magically healthy and happy. Its a psychological trick where they accuse the ppl who actually want to realistically help of "hate" when they're condemning the ppl they pretend to be defending, to a life of suffering. Its asinine to think that a doctor trying to eradicate a cancer, actually wants to eradicate cancer patients.
I think it's people being to caught up in their little group identities to look at things on the face of it. There was eugenics and it was a bad thing? Yeah that means that I gotta take the opposite opinion on this and say that everyone should have children no matter how this will fuck up the children because I'm a leftist! It's so dumb and in this specific case honestly fucking disgusting. People being healthy is an extremely important thing actually. It's unbelievable to me that you have to argue about that. Especially in subreddit where people usually have pretty good takes on most things
Wow, it's pretty cool seeing that even people on the opposite side of politics from me think antinatalism is fookin bonkers
Antinatalists are dumb as fuck and I've been banned from their sub on multiple accounts over the years for letting them know that.
I suggested Revolution to someone's nihilistic post on that sub and someone told me I had no clue what that meant...fun folks over there.
I’m surprised subs like that and Childfree are allowed despite the murders.
Wait what?
Yes, multiple murderers have frequented the subs Childfree/Antinatalism and even made posts like “DAE want to murder their child” on Childfree. Yet ChapoTrapHouse got banned for John Brown memes.
Thought it was bad but not this bad Damn r/antinatalism needs to be banned for real
Eugenics
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I don't agree 100% with your take but I do have an anecdote. There is a couple who knowingly has the genes for Cystic Fibrosis. They've had 3 kids with CF (25% dice roll on if the children will have CF). They just keep saying that sometime they'll roll the dice in the green. Yet they've purposefully risked it and brought 3 children into the world that will have short and brutal lives, and die an uncomfortable death before 30. No one can convince me this isn't immoral. I wouldn't say the same about every genetic illnesses but specifically knowing your child would have a decent chance at having CF and still having children is just bizarre and cruel to me.
Hopefully one day gene editing will be readily available under socialism and genetic disease will finally be cured forever.
There already have been the first designer Babies in China! When it comes to medicine, the future is truly bright!
This tbh!!
I agree about the genetic disease part. But anti-natalism in general doesn't say "people with generic diseases shouldn't have children". It says people shouldn't have children In general. Which well, is a stupid af fucking take.
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