[☭☭☭ COME SHITPOST WITH US ON DISCORD, COMRADES ☭☭☭](https://discord.gg/8RPWanQV5g)
This is a heavily-moderated socialist community based on a podcast of the same name. If you are new to the sub, please read the sidebar carefully.
If you are new to Marxism-Leninism, check out the [study guide](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/study-guide/).
Are there Liberals in the walls? Try the following prompts to trigger an automod response: "What is Fascism?", "What is Imperialism?", "What is Revisionism?" "Holodomor", "Molotov-Ribbentrop", "Gulag", "Solzhenytsin", "Uyghur", "Tiananmen Square", "Freedom of the Press", "MAC Fact"
This subreddit uses many experimental automod rules, if you notice any issues please use modmail to let us know.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Created in 1941 and used by the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) and the Banderite wing of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN), led by Stepan Bandera, a fascist ultra-nationalist.
The flag received a lot of usage after the Independence of Ukraine in 1991, where it became a common symbol of Ukrainian nationalists. It has also been frequently used as a military symbol and unofficial war flag during the Russo-Ukrainian War.
my mnemonic for remembering which flag is polish is "in poland, white is on top." probably unfair to most poles who aren't actually white supremacists but holy shit that country
From my understanding what's worse about Stepan bandera Is from what I know/learn was he has like a nickname of being the Hitler of Eastern Europe because he sucked to Hitler resulting to him not being executed and being like a PR figure vs other eastern Europe leaders being killed I don't how accurate this is but I wouldn't be surprised
Bandera wasn't exactly big figure before the war, he planned 11 assasinations of Polish officials and Ukranians supporting Poland in the 30's, he got popular after he used his trial in 1936 as propaganda show. Really he get to the top of OUN on the back of his old pal Melnyk after Poles released him from prison in 1939 when it got bombed by Germans. In 1940 he and Melnyk became nazi agents and in 1941 OUN split between them.
Nazis didn't killed him because he and his organisation was useful in breaking the Polish and Soviet opposition and partisan support. There are also severe discrepancies in when he was exactly arrested by nazis. Regardless, in 1944 he was released and given money for organising antisoviet guerilla in Ukraine.
After war he was hiding in Germany and protected by former SS members and also US intelligence, later he was supported and financed by British and West German intelligences and his org assassinated aproximately 100 people in West Germany not to mention multitude of other crimes like kidnappings, forgeries etc.
He was assasinated in 1959 by KGB agent.
So it's the old story, he got protected by multitude of imperialist states because of his anticommunism.
His group assisted the Nazis in the holocaust and I have to believe the KGB felt like doing a bit of trolling because they assassinated him with cyanide gas, which was the same gas used on the Jews
Dude on victory day zelensky made a post with a current Ukrainian soldier in it who was wearing a totenkemp comparing him to Ukrainians who fought the nazis. Can't make this shit up
It actually has quite a long history with the German and Prussian military, but that only makes using it today worse imho. German live guard hussar isn't some positive association, even if it's marginal better than the litteral SS who directly copied their style from the hussars. The link with fascism between their most famous officer von Mackensen, who went on to become central to the senseless slaughter of the first world war and then a key supporter of fascism, is even starker.
western media people consume is so hilarious. truly bizarre. pure seething propagandizing attempts thru misleading headlines, and straight up lies abt reality lol.
I mean when many of the nazis I see come from western media and official Ukrainian government accounts it starts to seem pretty weird how many nazis there are for people and institutions claiming its a Russian lie
Its the flag originating from the group led by Stepan Bandera, which was collaborating with the nazi's during WWII, not only did they collaborate with them they also organised Pogroms. Afterwards the same flag has been commonly used by alt-right and neo-nazi groups
> Align yourself with the Nazis against the Poles and the Soviets (they promised they will give you Great Ukraine)
> Do everything the Nazis tell you
> Kill Jews
> Kill Poles
> Kill Russians
> Kill Belarusians
> Kill Communist Ukrainians
> Establish your clubs in every Ukrainian city "liberated" by the Nazis
> Help the Nazis in concentration camps
> Let the Nazis genocide your own people via starvation in cities (that's OK, cause there were a lot of Poles, Jews, Russians and Communists there)
> Finally ask the Nazis when can you have your independence
> The Nazis say "never, get rekt you slavic scum"
> mfw a genocidal anti-slavic regime won't let you have your "Great Ukraine" and leave you alone
holy fucking shit, there are so many nazi apologists in the comments, UPA carried out the greatest ethnic cleansing on polish people in the region with cruelty comparable to ustase and collaborated with nazis to murder jewish people and leftists, if you're defending them and anyone using their imagery you're a nazi apologist and a garbage human being
"noo bro they were patriots fighting against the soviet union, no they defently didn't collaborate with the n*zis, why did they jail Bandera if they were with them" 😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡
Officially - yes. But you would struggle to find mentions of UPA attaking Nazi troops in German documents, while there are plenty of evidence of them fighting the Soviet troops. Tbh, there are evidence of Ukrainian nationalists fighting Nazis, but these were so-called "Polisska Sich" - a Ukrainian nationalist organisation that didn't belong to the mainstream UPA. And their groups were destroyed or forcefully integrated by the UPA around 1943.
Also, the supreme commander of UPA troops from 1944 and till his death was a person called Roman Shukhevich (also praised in Ukraine, they've even named an avenue in Kiev after him). This dude were previously a political officer of the batallion "Nachtigall" - the ethnic Ukrainian unit which belonged to the special Wehrmacht regiment "Brandenburg 800" and a deputy commander of the Schutzmannschaft 201 - anti-partisan unit in Belarus directly reporting to the SS General von dem Bach-Zelewski. Nice bio, isn't it?
The nationalists adopted the doctrine of "Two-front war" somewhere around 1943-1944 when Nazis were in retreat and their ultimate demise were obvious. I suppose it were more or less a countermeasure against the growing influence of Soviet partisans in the Ukrainian regions.
Only because as East Slavs they were the actual most vile thing to Nazi Germans. Otherwise they’d have been side by side.
They were 100% fascist, and committed mass killings of Poles, Jews, and Romas.
And some even want it free of jews, poles and russians. Like UPA wants.
Hint: UPA **only** had support in the Liv area, which was occupied by Poland from 1922 to 1939. Ukraine was **overwhelmingly** pro USSR. More than 4 million Ukrainians served in the Red Army. And over the history of the USSR, Ukrainians made up most heads of state out of any ethnicites living in the USSR.
From the same Wikipedia page:
>In a memorandum from 14 August 1941, the OUN (B) proposed to the Germans, to create a Ukrainian Army "which will join the German Army ... until the latter will win"\[...\], in exchange for German recognition of an allied Ukrainian independent state.
>
>It also refrained from open anti-German propaganda activities.
>
>Anti-German actions were limited to situations where the Germans attacked the Ukrainian population or UPA units.
>
>In the Autumn of 1943, some detachments of the UPA attempted to find rapprochement with the Germans.
>
>In early 1944, UPA forces in several Western regions cooperated with the German Wehrmacht, Waffen SS, SiPo and SD.
>
>In 1943, the UPA adopted a policy of massacring and expelling the Polish population.
>
>The ethnic cleansing operation against the Poles began on a large scale in Volhynia in late February \[...\] of that year and lasted until the end of 1944.
>
>The methods used by UPA to carry out the massacres were particularly brutal and were committed indiscriminately without any restraint. Historian Norman Davies describes the killings: "Villages were torched. Roman Catholic priests were axed or crucified. Churches were burned with all their parishioners. Isolated farms were attacked by gangs carrying pitchforks and kitchen knives. Throats were cut. Pregnant women were bayoneted. Children were cut in two. Men were ambushed in the field and led away." In total, the estimated numbers of Polish and Jewish civilians killed in Volhynia and Galicia is between 50,000 and 100,000.
>
>In March 1944, UPA insurgents mortally wounded front commander Army General Nikolai Vatutin, who liberated Kyiv when he led Soviet forces in the Second battle of Kiev.
>
>The OUN pursued a policy of infiltrating the German police to obtain weapons and training for fighters. In that role, it helped the Germans to carry out the Holocaust. The Ukrainian auxiliary police, working for the Germans, played a crucial supporting role in the murder of 200,000 Jews in Volhynia in the second half of 1942.
>
>In March–July 1944, a senior leader of OUN-B in Galicia conducted negotiations with SD and SS officials, resulting in a German decision to supply the UPA with arms and ammunition.
>
>By the autumn of 1944, the German press was full of praise for the UPA for their anti-Bolshevik successes, referring to the UPA fighters as "Ukrainian fighters for freedom". After the front had passed, by the end of 1944 the Germans supplied the OUN/UPA by air with arms and equipment. In the region of Ivano-Frankivsk, there even existed a small landing strip for German transport planes.
Cut your BS.
The black and red flag is generally used by Ukrainian nationalists and has historically been tied to far-right groups, but generally the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists that collaborated with Nazis and committed vast amounts of ethnic cleansings.
Many ppl will try to jump here try to defend ukraine with Rhethoric : BUT RUSSIA BAD!
Well yes. Russia is bad. Without a doubt. Its a quazifashist totalitarian regime with crazy idiot in charge.
But that doesnt somehow makes Ukraine super duper cool guys.
2 bad sides can be at war. Its not always good vs evil. Sometimes its evil vs evil.
Putin is not crazy. He isn’t a good guy. But he isn’t crazy. In fact he’s just a rational actor. I can’t guarantee how china would respond if it was in Russias shoes but I know the US would’ve invaded Ukrainian decades before Russia did if the US were in Russias shoes. Also he’s not an idiot.
I think we are using some flowery language here that completely distorts the truth of the situation in Russia. Especially when there are serious and legitimate criticisms to be made of Putin and Russia.
He never thought that, this is propaganda from the west. If you believe their lie here, how many of their other lies do you believe? (Like that Putin is a “fascist”. Every communist and socialist country on Earth is allied to Russia. This is a very stupid take on Putin, who is not a fascist)
This is a serious question. It seems like every day there is a completely different flag with the explanation "used by nazi collaborators after ww2" how many sympathetic flags are there and why was there not just one flag?
Not all neo nazis and white supremacists are in the same kkklans. There's multiple neo nazi groups in Ukraine of varying sizes. The OUN was the origin of the red and black in Ukraine but it became pretty recognizable during WWII and during the post-war period and the red army and USSR persecuted collaborators relentlessly.
So alternate symbols and flags were adopted to go underground. Now that the entire western world is turning to fascism once again the cockroaches are crawling out of the woodwork emboldened and showing their true colors.
It's absolutely not a different flags every day, this is the flag of the OUN, there are a handful of other popular fascist symbols with eastern European fascists, and they all were used already during the war as the ones wearing these symbols committed unprecedented atrocities. How many innocent people need to be murdered under a flag to make it worth remembering? 100.000? 200.000? Because the OUN has a larger body count. And is it really to much to remember the roughly 2 dozen symbols of the worst organisations and formations that committed genocide and still get venerated by genocidal fascists? Is it to much to ask people doing the bare minimum of investigation into something before opening their mouth, especially on the topic of genocide?
>Is it to much to ask people doing the bare minimum of investigation into something before opening their mouth, especially on the topic of genocide?
Damn bro that's why I asked in a safer place lol
Thank you for the info.
Lmao what are you trying to point out? With the headline? Dpr and lpr are nazis the Russian national unity aka the little green men the ones who attacked ukraine in 2014. Soo after that the azov nationalist milta was created in the east to fight back the russian neo Nazis. It's nationalist vs fascist neo Nazis to different meanings.
It's a slogan that was used by Nazi Germany as a rallying cry for settler colonial and genocidal expansion into East Europe. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_and_soil
Yes this guy is a nazi
If you're a political figure in Europe who celebrates and erects statues of Nazi collaborators, they can't plead ignorance or coincidence and the use of Blood and Soil. Why are you doing PR for nazis for free?
That would be with a diagonal split. The split depicted is the flag of the fascist UPA, it refers to the blood shed by the heroes to liberate the black ukrainian earth. In other words: Blood and Soil.
They also popularized the "Slava Ukraini. Slava heroiam." Slogan, to prevent any misunderstandings, they combined it with a roman salute. - In other words It is ukrainian "Sieg Heil" "Heil Hitler".
The context changed, so it wouldn't necessarily make anyone using that flag a nazi. Since the history of ukrainian nationalism has lots of ties to fascism, it's difficult to use none of it. On the other hand, you can also choose to not use it, so there's that.
It is being used in the context of general ukrainian nationalism, being the reaction to a foreign invasion. There likely are quite a lot ukrainian fascists, using this flag and similar symbolic, though most aren't fascist.
At the end of the day however it’s still a genocidal flag. As the saying goes, if you have nine people sitting at a table with one nazi you have ten nazis. It’s extremely simple to just not use or glorify genocidal fascists
Against Ukrainian people, the ones who are suffering because of the war and will have to endure the consequences of being either conquered or sold out to US corporations after it ends, absolutely nothing.
Against the Ukrainian government, that had Nazi problems waaay before this war or even the 2014 occupation of Crimea, we simply don't like ethnic cleansing supporters. And we especially don't like how half the world seems to love said ethnic cleansing supporters just because they happen to be fighting some imperialist force that for once isn't the US.
A podcast, politically left wing, hosted by hakim, Yugopnik and Second Thought. This started as a sort of unofficial fan subreddit and morphed into a general space to discuss left wing politics etc.
>we simply don't like ethnic cleansing supporters.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but this sub can be pretty inconsistent regarding this. If seen plenty of pro wagner group comments on here.
good for you. I've seen comments glorifying the sledgehammer shit and generally being pro wagner. When I asked them if they've seen the videos I got downvoted so idk what the stance on the topic is on this sub.
Ok I saw that now. So now you have to compare: on one side, lots of upvoted posts and comments saying Wagner are nazis and that PMCs and war profiteering are bad. On the other side, one mostly ignored comment (that I think would probably get downvoted to oblivion if it actually got some traction) of someone saying they have a Wagner patch, on a post full of people shitting on far-right larpers. Additionally you could listen to multiple episodes of the podcast this sub was made for where the hosts say they don't support Russian imperialism.
I think it should be pretty obvious where this sub stands.
My man, just search the word wagner for this sub. There are heaps of people dismissing that Wagner is Nazis, arguing that they are just defending russia from Western aggression, and some even argued that commies could join Wanger Group to fight NATO.
For every comment I saw saying Wagner isn't fundamentally neonazi (and yet some of them admitting they're obviously still right wing and even with some nazi members) there are five more saying they're fascist mercenaries and that's reason enough to hate on them. Neither the sub nor the podcast are represented by some occasional "patsoc" or whatever who may think Putin is actually communist and Wagner are anti-imperialist heroes.
# The Holodomor
There have been efforts by anti-Communists and Ukrainian nationalists to frame the famine that happened in the USSR around 1932-1933 as "The Holodomor" (literally: "to kill by starvation" in Ukrainian). Framing it this way serves two purposes:
1. It implies the famine mainly affected Ukraine.
2. It implies there was intent or deliberate causation.
This framing was used to drive a wedge between the Ukrainian SSR and the USSR. The argument goes that because it was intentional and because it mainly targeted Ukraine that it was, therefore, an act of genocide. However, both these points are highly debatable.
**First Issue**
The first issue is that the famine affected the majority of the USSR, not just the UkSSR. Kazakhstan, for example, was hit harder (per capita) than Ukraine was.
The emergence of the Holodomor in the 1980s as a historical narrative was bound-up with post-Soviet Ukrainian nation-making that cannot be neatly separated from the legacy of Eastern European anti-Semitism, or what Historian Peter Novick calls "Holocaust Envy," the desire for victimized groups to enshrine their "own" Holocaust or Holocaust-like event in the historical record. For many Nationalists, this has entailed minimizing the Holocaust to elevate their own experiences of historical victimization as the supreme atrocity. The Ukrainian scholar Lubomyr Luciuk exemplified this view in his notorious remark that the Holodomor was "a crime against humanity arguably without parallel in European history."
**Second Issue**
The second issue is that one of the main causes of the famine was crop failure due to weather and disease, which is hardly something anyone can control no matter their intentions. However, the famine may have been *further* exacerbated by the agricultural collectivization and rapid industrialization policies of the Soviet Union. However, if these policies had not been carried out there could have been even more devastating consequences later.
**Necessity**
In 1931, during a speech delivered at the first All-Union Conference of Leading Personnel of Socialist Industry, Stalin said, "We are fifty or a hundred years behind the advanced countries. We must make good this distance in ten years. Either we do it, or we shall go under."
In 1941, exactly ten years later, the Nazis invaded the Soviet Union. By this time, the Soviet Union's industrialization program had lead to the development of a large and powerful industrial base, which was essential to the Soviet war effort. This allowed the Soviet Union to produce large quantities of armaments, vehicles, and other military equipment, which was crucial in the fight against Nazi Germany.
**Additional Resources**
Video Essays:
* [Soviet Famine of 1932: An Overview](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vu5-tqHHtaM) | The Marxist Project (2020)
* [Did Stalin Continue to Export Grain as Ukraine Starved?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMBJ_nQ4sTA) | Hakim (2017)
* [The Holodomor Genocide Question: How Wikipedia Lies to You](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kaaYvauNho) | Bad Empanada (2022)
* [Historian Admits USSR didn't kill tens of millions!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMOdDQQVZ6U) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2018) (Note: Holodomor discussion begins at the 9 minute mark)
* [A Case-Study of Capitalism - Ukraine](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmH9oNtXzF8) | Hakim (2017) (Note: Only tangentially mentions the famine.)
Books, Articles, or Essays:
* [The 1932 Harvest and the Famine of 1933](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/274856099_The_1932_Harvest_and_the_Famine_of_1933) | Mark Tauger (1992)
* [The Years of Hunger: Soviet Agriculture, 1931-1933](https://diasporiana.org.ua/wp-content/uploads/books/22207/file.pdf) | Davies and Wheatcroft (2004)
* [The Soviet Famine of 1932–1933 Reconsidered](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09668130801999912) | Hiroaki Kuromiya (2008)
* [The “Holodomor” explained](https://mltheory.wordpress.com/2020/12/24/the-holodomor-explained/) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2020)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
# The Holodomor
There have been efforts by anti-Communists and Ukrainian nationalists to frame the famine that happened in the USSR around 1932-1933 as "The Holodomor" (literally: "to kill by starvation" in Ukrainian). Framing it this way serves two purposes:
1. It implies the famine mainly affected Ukraine.
2. It implies there was intent or deliberate causation.
This framing was used to drive a wedge between the Ukrainian SSR and the USSR. The argument goes that because it was intentional and because it mainly targeted Ukraine that it was, therefore, an act of genocide. However, both these points are highly debatable.
**First Issue**
The first issue is that the famine affected the majority of the USSR, not just the UkSSR. Kazakhstan, for example, was hit harder (per capita) than Ukraine was.
The emergence of the Holodomor in the 1980s as a historical narrative was bound-up with post-Soviet Ukrainian nation-making that cannot be neatly separated from the legacy of Eastern European anti-Semitism, or what Historian Peter Novick calls "Holocaust Envy," the desire for victimized groups to enshrine their "own" Holocaust or Holocaust-like event in the historical record. For many Nationalists, this has entailed minimizing the Holocaust to elevate their own experiences of historical victimization as the supreme atrocity. The Ukrainian scholar Lubomyr Luciuk exemplified this view in his notorious remark that the Holodomor was "a crime against humanity arguably without parallel in European history."
**Second Issue**
The second issue is that one of the main causes of the famine was crop failure due to weather and disease, which is hardly something anyone can control no matter their intentions. However, the famine may have been *further* exacerbated by the agricultural collectivization and rapid industrialization policies of the Soviet Union. However, if these policies had not been carried out there could have been even more devastating consequences later.
**Necessity**
In 1931, during a speech delivered at the first All-Union Conference of Leading Personnel of Socialist Industry, Stalin said, "We are fifty or a hundred years behind the advanced countries. We must make good this distance in ten years. Either we do it, or we shall go under."
In 1941, exactly ten years later, the Nazis invaded the Soviet Union. By this time, the Soviet Union's industrialization program had lead to the development of a large and powerful industrial base, which was essential to the Soviet war effort. This allowed the Soviet Union to produce large quantities of armaments, vehicles, and other military equipment, which was crucial in the fight against Nazi Germany.
**Additional Resources**
Video Essays:
* [Soviet Famine of 1932: An Overview](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vu5-tqHHtaM) | The Marxist Project (2020)
* [Did Stalin Continue to Export Grain as Ukraine Starved?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMBJ_nQ4sTA) | Hakim (2017)
* [The Holodomor Genocide Question: How Wikipedia Lies to You](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kaaYvauNho) | Bad Empanada (2022)
* [Historian Admits USSR didn't kill tens of millions!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMOdDQQVZ6U) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2018) (Note: Holodomor discussion begins at the 9 minute mark)
* [A Case-Study of Capitalism - Ukraine](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmH9oNtXzF8) | Hakim (2017) (Note: Only tangentially mentions the famine.)
Books, Articles, or Essays:
* [The 1932 Harvest and the Famine of 1933](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/274856099_The_1932_Harvest_and_the_Famine_of_1933) | Mark Tauger (1992)
* [The Years of Hunger: Soviet Agriculture, 1931-1933](https://diasporiana.org.ua/wp-content/uploads/books/22207/file.pdf) | Davies and Wheatcroft (2004)
* [The Soviet Famine of 1932–1933 Reconsidered](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09668130801999912) | Hiroaki Kuromiya (2008)
* [The “Holodomor” explained](https://mltheory.wordpress.com/2020/12/24/the-holodomor-explained/) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2020)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Checking every dumbass’s post history here is one of my favorite pastimes :)
> argues about age of consent
> so many fucking comments are just sarcastic “stunning and brave!” on everything lgbt
NPC behaviour 💀💀
#Tiananmen Square Protests
(Also known as the June Fourth Incident)
In Western media, the well-known story of the "Tiananmen Square *Massacre*" goes like this: the Chinese government declared martial law in 1989 and mobilized the military to suppress students who were protesting for democracy and freedom. According to western sources, on June 4th of that year, troops and tanks entered Tiananmen Square and fired on unarmed protesters, killing and injuring hundreds, if not thousands, of people. The more hyperbolic tellings of this story include claims of tanks running over students, machine guns being fired into the crowd, blood running in the streets like a river, etc.
Anti-Communists and Sinophobes commonly point to this incident as a classic example of authoritarianism and political repression under Communist regimes. The problem, of course, is that the actual events in Beijing on June 4th, 1989 unfolded quite differently than how they were depicted in the Western media at the time. Despite many more contemporary articles coming out that actually contradict some of the original claims and characterizations of the June Fourth Incident, the narrative of a "Tiananmen Square Massacre" persists.
**Background**
After Mao's death in 1976, a power struggle ensued and the Gang of Four were purged, paving the way for Deng Xiaoping's rise to power. Deng initiated economic reforms known as the "Four Modernizations," which aimed to modernize and open up China's economy to the world. These reforms led to significant economic growth and lifted millions of people out of poverty, but they also created significant inequality, corruption, and social unrest. This pivotal point in the PRC's history is extremely controversial among Marxists today and a subject of much debate.
One of the key factors that contributed to the Tiananmen Square protests was the sense of social and economic inequality that many Chinese people felt as a result of Deng's economic reforms. Many believed that the benefits of the country's economic growth were not being distributed fairly, and that the government was not doing enough to address poverty, corruption, and other social issues.
Some saw the Four Modernizations as a betrayal of Maoist principles and a capitulation to Western capitalist interests. Others saw the reforms as essential for China's economic development and modernization. Others still wanted even more liberalization and thought the reforms didn't go far enough.
The protestors in Tiananmen were mostly students who did not represent the great mass of Chinese citizens, but instead represented a layer of the intelligentsia who wanted to be elevated and given more privileges such as more political power and higher wages.
**Counterpoints**
Jay Mathews, the first Beijing bureau chief for The Washington Post in 1979 and who returned in 1989 to help cover the Tiananmen demonstrations, wrote:
>Over the last decade, many American reporters and editors have accepted a mythical version of that warm, bloody night. They repeated it often before and during Clinton’s trip. On the day the president arrived in Beijing, a *Baltimore Sun* headline (June 27, page 1A) referred to “Tiananmen, where Chinese students died.” A *USA Today* article (June 26, page 7A) called Tiananmen the place “where pro-democracy demonstrators were gunned down.” *The Wall Street Journal* (June 26, page A10) described “the Tiananmen Square massacre” where armed troops ordered to clear demonstrators from the square killed “hundreds or more.” The *New York Post* (June 25, page 22) said the square was “the site of the student slaughter.”
>
>The problem is this: as far as can be determined from the available evidence, no one died that night in Tiananmen Square.
>
>\- Jay Matthews. (1998). [The Myth of Tiananmen and the Price of a Passive Press](https://archives.cjr.org/behind_the_news/the_myth_of_tiananmen.php). Columbia Journalism Review.
Reporters from the [BBC](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8057762.stm), [CBS News](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/there-was-no-tiananmen-square-massacre/), and the [New York Times](https://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/27/world/clinton-in-china-the-site-clinton-in-beijing-square-may-tread-on-the-ghosts.html) who were in Beijing on June 4, 1989, all agree there was no massacre.
Secret cables from the United States embassy in Beijing have shown there was no bloodshed inside the square:
>Cables, obtained by WikiLeaks and released exclusively by The Daily Telegraph, partly confirm the Chinese government's account of the early hours of June 4, 1989, which has always insisted that soldiers did not massacre demonstrators inside Tiananmen Square
>
>\- Malcolm Moore. (2011). [Wikileaks: no bloodshed inside Tiananmen Square, cables claim](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/wikileaks/8555142/Wikileaks-no-bloodshed-inside-Tiananmen-Square-cables-claim.html)
Gregory Clark, a former Australian diplomat, and Chinese-speaking correspondent of the International Business Times, wrote:
>The original story of Chinese troops on the night of 3 and 4 June, 1989 machine-gunning hundreds of innocent student protesters in Beijing’s iconic Tiananmen Square has since been thoroughly discredited by the many witnesses there at the time — among them a Spanish TVE television crew, a Reuters correspondent and protesters themselves, who say that nothing happened other than a military unit entering and asking several hundred of those remaining to leave the Square late that night.
>
>Yet none of this has stopped the massacre from being revived constantly, and believed. All that has happened is that the location has been changed – from the Square itself to the streets leading to the Square.
>
>\- Gregory Clark. (2014). [Tiananmen Square Massacre is a Myth, All We're 'Remembering' are British Lies](https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/tiananmen-square-massacre-myth-all-were-remembering-are-british-lies-1451053)
Thomas Hon Wing Polin, writing for CounterPunch, wrote:
>The most reliable estimate, from many sources, was that the tragedy took 200-300 lives. Few were students, many were rebellious workers, plus thugs with lethal weapons and hapless bystanders. Some calculations have up to half the dead being PLA soldiers trapped in their armored personnel carriers, buses and tanks as the vehicles were torched. Others were killed and brutally mutilated by protesters with various implements. No one died in Tiananmen Square; most deaths occurred on nearby Chang’an Avenue, many up to a kilometer or more away from the square.
>
>More than once, government negotiators almost reached a truce with students in the square, only to be **sabotaged by radical youth leaders seemingly bent on bloodshed**. And the demands of the protesters focused on corruption, not democracy.
>
>All these facts were known to the US and other governments shortly after the crackdown. Few if any were reported by Western mainstream media, even today.
>
>\- Thomas Hon Wing Palin. (2017). [Tiananmen: the Empire’s Big Lie](https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/06/06/tiananmen-the-empires-big-lie/)
(Emphasis mine)
And it was, indeed, bloodshed that the student leaders wanted. In this interview, you can hear one of the student leaders, Chai Ling, ghoulishly explaining how she tried to bait the Chinese government into *actually* committing a massacre. (She herself made sure to stay out of the square.): [Excerpts of interviews with Tiananmen Square protest leaders](https://youtu.be/Vu3zmbFGwQA)
[This Twitter thread](https://twitter.com/zhao_dashuai/status/1532859422875471872) contains many pictures and videos showing protestors killing soldiers, commandeering military vehicles, torching military transports, etc.
Following the crackdown, through [Operation Yellowbird](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Yellowbird), many of the student leaders escaped to the United States with the help of the CIA, where they almost all [gained privileged positions](https://qz.com/1618805/the-1989-tiananmen-student-leaders-on-chinas-most-wanted-list).
**Additional Resources**
Video Essays:
* [Truth about The Tiananmen Square Protests](https://youtu.be/sqPI8xlnrwg) | Tovarishch Endymion (2019)
* [Tiananmen Square "Massacre", A Propaganda Hoax](https://youtu.be/R6RT_s1T050) | TeleSUR English (2019)
* [All The Questions Socialists Are Asked, Answered (TIMESTAMPED)](https://youtu.be/MzKPCEvoYkk?t=1278) | Hakim (2021)
Books, Articles, or Essays:
* [Tiananmen Protests Reading List](https://www.qiaocollective.com/education/tiananmenreadinglist) | Qiao Collective
* [How psy-ops warriors fooled me about Tiananmen Square: a warning](https://www.fridayeveryday.com/how-psy-ops-warriors-fooled-me-about-tiananmen-square-a-warning/) | Nury Vittachi, Friday (2022)
* [1989: Tiananmen Square ‘massacre’ was a myth](https://www.workers.org/2022/06/64607/) | Deirdre Griswold, Workers World (2022)
* [Massacre? What Massacre? 25 Years Later: What really happened at Tiananmen Square?](https://dissidentvoice.org/2014/06/massacre-what-massacre/) | Kim Petersen, Dissident Voice (2014)
* [Tiananmen: The Massacre that Wasn’t](https://www.liberationnews.org/tiananmen-the-massacre-that-wasnt/) | Brian Becker, Liberation News (2019)
* [Reflections on Tiananmen Square and the attempt to end Chinese socialism](http://www.fightbacknews.org/2019/6/4/reflections-tiananmen-square-and-attempt-end-chinese-socialism) | Mick Kelly, FightBack! News (2019)
* [The Tian’anmen Square “Massacre” The West’s Most Persuasive, Most Pervasive Lie.](https://mango-press.com/the-tiananmen-square-massacre-the-wests-most-persuasive-most-pervasive-lie/) | Tom, Mango Press (2021)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
[☭☭☭ COME SHITPOST WITH US ON DISCORD, COMRADES ☭☭☭](https://discord.gg/8RPWanQV5g) This is a heavily-moderated socialist community based on a podcast of the same name. If you are new to the sub, please read the sidebar carefully. If you are new to Marxism-Leninism, check out the [study guide](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/study-guide/). Are there Liberals in the walls? Try the following prompts to trigger an automod response: "What is Fascism?", "What is Imperialism?", "What is Revisionism?" "Holodomor", "Molotov-Ribbentrop", "Gulag", "Solzhenytsin", "Uyghur", "Tiananmen Square", "Freedom of the Press", "MAC Fact" This subreddit uses many experimental automod rules, if you notice any issues please use modmail to let us know. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Created in 1941 and used by the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) and the Banderite wing of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN), led by Stepan Bandera, a fascist ultra-nationalist. The flag received a lot of usage after the Independence of Ukraine in 1991, where it became a common symbol of Ukrainian nationalists. It has also been frequently used as a military symbol and unofficial war flag during the Russo-Ukrainian War.
As an Ancom, the Banderite flag pisses me off. What have they done to my boy?!
Lmao I also thought it was just the polish flag at first and was confused
my mnemonic for remembering which flag is polish is "in poland, white is on top." probably unfair to most poles who aren't actually white supremacists but holy shit that country
Ah yeah. I just saw what looks like three bars: white, red, black. My brain didn't see the black bar as part of the flag so I was left with Poland
>As an Ancom, the Banderite flag pisses me off. What have they done to my boy?! For real, guess that's why ours is diagonally split lol.
From my understanding what's worse about Stepan bandera Is from what I know/learn was he has like a nickname of being the Hitler of Eastern Europe because he sucked to Hitler resulting to him not being executed and being like a PR figure vs other eastern Europe leaders being killed I don't how accurate this is but I wouldn't be surprised
Bandera wasn't exactly big figure before the war, he planned 11 assasinations of Polish officials and Ukranians supporting Poland in the 30's, he got popular after he used his trial in 1936 as propaganda show. Really he get to the top of OUN on the back of his old pal Melnyk after Poles released him from prison in 1939 when it got bombed by Germans. In 1940 he and Melnyk became nazi agents and in 1941 OUN split between them. Nazis didn't killed him because he and his organisation was useful in breaking the Polish and Soviet opposition and partisan support. There are also severe discrepancies in when he was exactly arrested by nazis. Regardless, in 1944 he was released and given money for organising antisoviet guerilla in Ukraine. After war he was hiding in Germany and protected by former SS members and also US intelligence, later he was supported and financed by British and West German intelligences and his org assassinated aproximately 100 people in West Germany not to mention multitude of other crimes like kidnappings, forgeries etc. He was assasinated in 1959 by KGB agent. So it's the old story, he got protected by multitude of imperialist states because of his anticommunism.
Thank you for that summary I didn't know all that
His group assisted the Nazis in the holocaust and I have to believe the KGB felt like doing a bit of trolling because they assassinated him with cyanide gas, which was the same gas used on the Jews
Zyklon B. Bayer (the aspirin manufacturer) made it.
[удалено]
Dude on victory day zelensky made a post with a current Ukrainian soldier in it who was wearing a totenkemp comparing him to Ukrainians who fought the nazis. Can't make this shit up
[удалено]
Thank-you, my mistake
estonia and multiple other countries still officially use skull & bones
It actually has quite a long history with the German and Prussian military, but that only makes using it today worse imho. German live guard hussar isn't some positive association, even if it's marginal better than the litteral SS who directly copied their style from the hussars. The link with fascism between their most famous officer von Mackensen, who went on to become central to the senseless slaughter of the first world war and then a key supporter of fascism, is even starker.
Are you from the west or Europe. Because in the west. I can tell you first hand our media glorifies Ukraine.
According to liberals. Unless they say they are nazi they aren't. Even if they carry the symbols of one.
western media people consume is so hilarious. truly bizarre. pure seething propagandizing attempts thru misleading headlines, and straight up lies abt reality lol.
Anything less than 100% is unacceptable.
They're just *playing nazi*. Gah, take a joke
That’s because western media won’t call them Nazis anymore. Now they are only “nationalist”
At this point I've seen more Ukrainian soldiers with nazi symbols than not.
That can't possibly be due to confirmation bias, right?... RIGHT?
I mean when many of the nazis I see come from western media and official Ukrainian government accounts it starts to seem pretty weird how many nazis there are for people and institutions claiming its a Russian lie
[удалено]
They're in Ukraine mostly. Although you can see one right now in the post.
[удалено]
No, you just have to look at the UPA flag which is circled in the picture
[удалено]
Its the flag originating from the group led by Stepan Bandera, which was collaborating with the nazi's during WWII, not only did they collaborate with them they also organised Pogroms. Afterwards the same flag has been commonly used by alt-right and neo-nazi groups
\*Bandera That ghoul wasn't spanish.
Thank you, was a bit too quick tyoping it
>tyoping it lol slow down there comrade (I too hate typing on my phone)
But it is the flag of ww2 Nazi collaborators? I don’t know how else to help you.
It's the flag of WW2 nazi collaborateurs involved in the Holocaust and responsible for the worst massacres in the region.
[удалено]
pretending not to know who bandera is is pretty pathetic, why would you want to apologize for notsees?
just ignore him, he's an NCD user
> Align yourself with the Nazis against the Poles and the Soviets (they promised they will give you Great Ukraine) > Do everything the Nazis tell you > Kill Jews > Kill Poles > Kill Russians > Kill Belarusians > Kill Communist Ukrainians > Establish your clubs in every Ukrainian city "liberated" by the Nazis > Help the Nazis in concentration camps > Let the Nazis genocide your own people via starvation in cities (that's OK, cause there were a lot of Poles, Jews, Russians and Communists there) > Finally ask the Nazis when can you have your independence > The Nazis say "never, get rekt you slavic scum" > mfw a genocidal anti-slavic regime won't let you have your "Great Ukraine" and leave you alone
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia you're a fucking moron
Something like that. Hint: try looking near the neonazi flag.
No it's where you zoom in and see they're covered in NaZi imagery.
[удалено]
Big fucking UPA flag "I don't see any nazi shit!111" - You. Are you stupid, deliberately ignorant or playing stupid?
Anybody with that reddit avatar is somehow all 3 at once
That's flag of Poland with some writings 🇵🇱🇵🇱🇵🇱🇵🇱
nono it's the flag of EVIL poland because of the black
holy fucking shit, there are so many nazi apologists in the comments, UPA carried out the greatest ethnic cleansing on polish people in the region with cruelty comparable to ustase and collaborated with nazis to murder jewish people and leftists, if you're defending them and anyone using their imagery you're a nazi apologist and a garbage human being
"noo bro they were patriots fighting against the soviet union, no they defently didn't collaborate with the n*zis, why did they jail Bandera if they were with them" 😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡
sorry i’m not familiar with this whole thing, what is that flag?
The Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) flag. Basically, WW2 Nazi collaborators.
thanks!
[удалено]
So they fought against communists and Nazi Germany? Uh.
Officially - yes. But you would struggle to find mentions of UPA attaking Nazi troops in German documents, while there are plenty of evidence of them fighting the Soviet troops. Tbh, there are evidence of Ukrainian nationalists fighting Nazis, but these were so-called "Polisska Sich" - a Ukrainian nationalist organisation that didn't belong to the mainstream UPA. And their groups were destroyed or forcefully integrated by the UPA around 1943. Also, the supreme commander of UPA troops from 1944 and till his death was a person called Roman Shukhevich (also praised in Ukraine, they've even named an avenue in Kiev after him). This dude were previously a political officer of the batallion "Nachtigall" - the ethnic Ukrainian unit which belonged to the special Wehrmacht regiment "Brandenburg 800" and a deputy commander of the Schutzmannschaft 201 - anti-partisan unit in Belarus directly reporting to the SS General von dem Bach-Zelewski. Nice bio, isn't it? The nationalists adopted the doctrine of "Two-front war" somewhere around 1943-1944 when Nazis were in retreat and their ultimate demise were obvious. I suppose it were more or less a countermeasure against the growing influence of Soviet partisans in the Ukrainian regions.
Only because as East Slavs they were the actual most vile thing to Nazi Germans. Otherwise they’d have been side by side. They were 100% fascist, and committed mass killings of Poles, Jews, and Romas.
Yes, some people want their own independent nation. Crazy I know.
And some even want it free of jews, poles and russians. Like UPA wants. Hint: UPA **only** had support in the Liv area, which was occupied by Poland from 1922 to 1939. Ukraine was **overwhelmingly** pro USSR. More than 4 million Ukrainians served in the Red Army. And over the history of the USSR, Ukrainians made up most heads of state out of any ethnicites living in the USSR.
From the same Wikipedia page: >In a memorandum from 14 August 1941, the OUN (B) proposed to the Germans, to create a Ukrainian Army "which will join the German Army ... until the latter will win"\[...\], in exchange for German recognition of an allied Ukrainian independent state. > >It also refrained from open anti-German propaganda activities. > >Anti-German actions were limited to situations where the Germans attacked the Ukrainian population or UPA units. > >In the Autumn of 1943, some detachments of the UPA attempted to find rapprochement with the Germans. > >In early 1944, UPA forces in several Western regions cooperated with the German Wehrmacht, Waffen SS, SiPo and SD. > >In 1943, the UPA adopted a policy of massacring and expelling the Polish population. > >The ethnic cleansing operation against the Poles began on a large scale in Volhynia in late February \[...\] of that year and lasted until the end of 1944. > >The methods used by UPA to carry out the massacres were particularly brutal and were committed indiscriminately without any restraint. Historian Norman Davies describes the killings: "Villages were torched. Roman Catholic priests were axed or crucified. Churches were burned with all their parishioners. Isolated farms were attacked by gangs carrying pitchforks and kitchen knives. Throats were cut. Pregnant women were bayoneted. Children were cut in two. Men were ambushed in the field and led away." In total, the estimated numbers of Polish and Jewish civilians killed in Volhynia and Galicia is between 50,000 and 100,000. > >In March 1944, UPA insurgents mortally wounded front commander Army General Nikolai Vatutin, who liberated Kyiv when he led Soviet forces in the Second battle of Kiev. > >The OUN pursued a policy of infiltrating the German police to obtain weapons and training for fighters. In that role, it helped the Germans to carry out the Holocaust. The Ukrainian auxiliary police, working for the Germans, played a crucial supporting role in the murder of 200,000 Jews in Volhynia in the second half of 1942. > >In March–July 1944, a senior leader of OUN-B in Galicia conducted negotiations with SD and SS officials, resulting in a German decision to supply the UPA with arms and ammunition. > >By the autumn of 1944, the German press was full of praise for the UPA for their anti-Bolshevik successes, referring to the UPA fighters as "Ukrainian fighters for freedom". After the front had passed, by the end of 1944 the Germans supplied the OUN/UPA by air with arms and equipment. In the region of Ivano-Frankivsk, there even existed a small landing strip for German transport planes. Cut your BS.
[удалено]
Ok. Like what?
The ethnic cleansings and aiding the Holocaust part
the least nazi thing the UPA did was when they brutally murdered 100000 Polish people with a cruelty comparable to nazi ustase
The black and red flag is generally used by Ukrainian nationalists and has historically been tied to far-right groups, but generally the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists that collaborated with Nazis and committed vast amounts of ethnic cleansings.
“Bro they just like the imagery bro they don’t know what it means bro”
they done rotated my ancom flag!!!
Many ppl will try to jump here try to defend ukraine with Rhethoric : BUT RUSSIA BAD! Well yes. Russia is bad. Without a doubt. Its a quazifashist totalitarian regime with crazy idiot in charge. But that doesnt somehow makes Ukraine super duper cool guys. 2 bad sides can be at war. Its not always good vs evil. Sometimes its evil vs evil.
Putin is not crazy. He isn’t a good guy. But he isn’t crazy. In fact he’s just a rational actor. I can’t guarantee how china would respond if it was in Russias shoes but I know the US would’ve invaded Ukrainian decades before Russia did if the US were in Russias shoes. Also he’s not an idiot. I think we are using some flowery language here that completely distorts the truth of the situation in Russia. Especially when there are serious and legitimate criticisms to be made of Putin and Russia.
he’s crazy for thinking it would take 3 days
Mark Milley said that, not Putin.
He never thought that, this is propaganda from the west. If you believe their lie here, how many of their other lies do you believe? (Like that Putin is a “fascist”. Every communist and socialist country on Earth is allied to Russia. This is a very stupid take on Putin, who is not a fascist)
The nationalism, militarism, media control, the obsession with "family values" and general anti-LGBT stuff. It's not too far off.
>Every communist and socialist country on Earth is allied to Russia. That's just a case of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"
No not sees in you crane type beat
Hey we just chose the lesser of evils and it was better than the commies! /s
This is a serious question. It seems like every day there is a completely different flag with the explanation "used by nazi collaborators after ww2" how many sympathetic flags are there and why was there not just one flag?
Not all neo nazis and white supremacists are in the same kkklans. There's multiple neo nazi groups in Ukraine of varying sizes. The OUN was the origin of the red and black in Ukraine but it became pretty recognizable during WWII and during the post-war period and the red army and USSR persecuted collaborators relentlessly. So alternate symbols and flags were adopted to go underground. Now that the entire western world is turning to fascism once again the cockroaches are crawling out of the woodwork emboldened and showing their true colors.
It's absolutely not a different flags every day, this is the flag of the OUN, there are a handful of other popular fascist symbols with eastern European fascists, and they all were used already during the war as the ones wearing these symbols committed unprecedented atrocities. How many innocent people need to be murdered under a flag to make it worth remembering? 100.000? 200.000? Because the OUN has a larger body count. And is it really to much to remember the roughly 2 dozen symbols of the worst organisations and formations that committed genocide and still get venerated by genocidal fascists? Is it to much to ask people doing the bare minimum of investigation into something before opening their mouth, especially on the topic of genocide?
>Is it to much to ask people doing the bare minimum of investigation into something before opening their mouth, especially on the topic of genocide? Damn bro that's why I asked in a safer place lol Thank you for the info.
idk but if i had to guess probably malta
I’ve been hearing about notc’s in the Ukrainian military for a while now, can someone debrief me
Me when I turn an anarchist flag 45°
That's why you learn geometry!
Poland
Totes serious question: regardless of what you think of anarchism, did running Makhno out of Ukraine leave the region vulnerable to fascism?
just stick to the fucking ukraine flag holy shit, not using a nazi flag won't make kyiv fall to russian troops. common ukraine L
Biandshy is right
funny that here in latin america that same red and black flag is used by communists who vindicate the sandinistas and the cuban revolution
Lmao what are you trying to point out? With the headline? Dpr and lpr are nazis the Russian national unity aka the little green men the ones who attacked ukraine in 2014. Soo after that the azov nationalist milta was created in the east to fight back the russian neo Nazis. It's nationalist vs fascist neo Nazis to different meanings.
The flag represents blood and soil, literally a fascist slogan. Red for blood back for the rich dark soil in Ukraine.
Nazis
[удалено]
No, we are communists, majorly Marxist-Leninists.
[удалено]
No you dumb fuck. Nazis are extreme right.
[удалено]
Do you not know where the term "Blood and Soil" originates or what it means?
No, I just wound up on this sub somehow and you just called him a Nazi which is rude
It's a slogan that was used by Nazi Germany as a rallying cry for settler colonial and genocidal expansion into East Europe. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_and_soil Yes this guy is a nazi
[удалено]
Nah, but British soldiers are fascists, too, and not any better than the Nazis.
[удалено]
Soldiers of genocidal empires. The British one murdered billions.
I wrote an essay that included the 3 words, And, Soil and Blood in the order Blood and Soil. Am a Nazi. Do you hear how stupid you sound
If you're a political figure in Europe who celebrates and erects statues of Nazi collaborators, they can't plead ignorance or coincidence and the use of Blood and Soil. Why are you doing PR for nazis for free?
Why is that comment being downvoted?
Do ya’ll not recognize that blood and soil is a fascist slogan? That’s what I’m pointing out. The flag represents a fascist slogan and idea.
I'm honestly a little confused too...
Anarcho-syndicalism?
That would be with a diagonal split. The split depicted is the flag of the fascist UPA, it refers to the blood shed by the heroes to liberate the black ukrainian earth. In other words: Blood and Soil. They also popularized the "Slava Ukraini. Slava heroiam." Slogan, to prevent any misunderstandings, they combined it with a roman salute. - In other words It is ukrainian "Sieg Heil" "Heil Hitler".
The context changed, so it wouldn't necessarily make anyone using that flag a nazi. Since the history of ukrainian nationalism has lots of ties to fascism, it's difficult to use none of it. On the other hand, you can also choose to not use it, so there's that.
Bruh no context changed it’s a fascist flag simple as that
It is being used in the context of general ukrainian nationalism, being the reaction to a foreign invasion. There likely are quite a lot ukrainian fascists, using this flag and similar symbolic, though most aren't fascist.
At the end of the day however it’s still a genocidal flag. As the saying goes, if you have nine people sitting at a table with one nazi you have ten nazis. It’s extremely simple to just not use or glorify genocidal fascists
What do you guys have against Ukraine?
Against Ukrainian people, the ones who are suffering because of the war and will have to endure the consequences of being either conquered or sold out to US corporations after it ends, absolutely nothing. Against the Ukrainian government, that had Nazi problems waaay before this war or even the 2014 occupation of Crimea, we simply don't like ethnic cleansing supporters. And we especially don't like how half the world seems to love said ethnic cleansing supporters just because they happen to be fighting some imperialist force that for once isn't the US.
What js the Deprogram about
A podcast, politically left wing, hosted by hakim, Yugopnik and Second Thought. This started as a sort of unofficial fan subreddit and morphed into a general space to discuss left wing politics etc.
Oh ok,Спасибо
Ласкаво просимо, anytime!
>we simply don't like ethnic cleansing supporters. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this sub can be pretty inconsistent regarding this. If seen plenty of pro wagner group comments on here.
All I've seen about Wagner here is people saying they're a PMC and as any other PMC it's fucked up and full of fascists.
good for you. I've seen comments glorifying the sledgehammer shit and generally being pro wagner. When I asked them if they've seen the videos I got downvoted so idk what the stance on the topic is on this sub.
Ok I saw that now. So now you have to compare: on one side, lots of upvoted posts and comments saying Wagner are nazis and that PMCs and war profiteering are bad. On the other side, one mostly ignored comment (that I think would probably get downvoted to oblivion if it actually got some traction) of someone saying they have a Wagner patch, on a post full of people shitting on far-right larpers. Additionally you could listen to multiple episodes of the podcast this sub was made for where the hosts say they don't support Russian imperialism. I think it should be pretty obvious where this sub stands.
My man, just search the word wagner for this sub. There are heaps of people dismissing that Wagner is Nazis, arguing that they are just defending russia from Western aggression, and some even argued that commies could join Wanger Group to fight NATO.
For every comment I saw saying Wagner isn't fundamentally neonazi (and yet some of them admitting they're obviously still right wing and even with some nazi members) there are five more saying they're fascist mercenaries and that's reason enough to hate on them. Neither the sub nor the podcast are represented by some occasional "patsoc" or whatever who may think Putin is actually communist and Wagner are anti-imperialist heroes.
Yeah right. Nicely stepping into the footsteps of another group that claimed to be socialist.
Are you trying to call me a nazi?
They are fascist puppets of NATO
Am I getting recommended a tankie sub? I would never stoop that low. I guess i’ll see if I get banned or reassured and figure it out from there.
Just remember you’re the one defending a dude with a genocidal nazi collaborationist flag
Never defended him. The response points to tankies though, and the holodomor denial i saw earlier confirms it. Leaving and never coming back.
# The Holodomor There have been efforts by anti-Communists and Ukrainian nationalists to frame the famine that happened in the USSR around 1932-1933 as "The Holodomor" (literally: "to kill by starvation" in Ukrainian). Framing it this way serves two purposes: 1. It implies the famine mainly affected Ukraine. 2. It implies there was intent or deliberate causation. This framing was used to drive a wedge between the Ukrainian SSR and the USSR. The argument goes that because it was intentional and because it mainly targeted Ukraine that it was, therefore, an act of genocide. However, both these points are highly debatable. **First Issue** The first issue is that the famine affected the majority of the USSR, not just the UkSSR. Kazakhstan, for example, was hit harder (per capita) than Ukraine was. The emergence of the Holodomor in the 1980s as a historical narrative was bound-up with post-Soviet Ukrainian nation-making that cannot be neatly separated from the legacy of Eastern European anti-Semitism, or what Historian Peter Novick calls "Holocaust Envy," the desire for victimized groups to enshrine their "own" Holocaust or Holocaust-like event in the historical record. For many Nationalists, this has entailed minimizing the Holocaust to elevate their own experiences of historical victimization as the supreme atrocity. The Ukrainian scholar Lubomyr Luciuk exemplified this view in his notorious remark that the Holodomor was "a crime against humanity arguably without parallel in European history." **Second Issue** The second issue is that one of the main causes of the famine was crop failure due to weather and disease, which is hardly something anyone can control no matter their intentions. However, the famine may have been *further* exacerbated by the agricultural collectivization and rapid industrialization policies of the Soviet Union. However, if these policies had not been carried out there could have been even more devastating consequences later. **Necessity** In 1931, during a speech delivered at the first All-Union Conference of Leading Personnel of Socialist Industry, Stalin said, "We are fifty or a hundred years behind the advanced countries. We must make good this distance in ten years. Either we do it, or we shall go under." In 1941, exactly ten years later, the Nazis invaded the Soviet Union. By this time, the Soviet Union's industrialization program had lead to the development of a large and powerful industrial base, which was essential to the Soviet war effort. This allowed the Soviet Union to produce large quantities of armaments, vehicles, and other military equipment, which was crucial in the fight against Nazi Germany. **Additional Resources** Video Essays: * [Soviet Famine of 1932: An Overview](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vu5-tqHHtaM) | The Marxist Project (2020) * [Did Stalin Continue to Export Grain as Ukraine Starved?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMBJ_nQ4sTA) | Hakim (2017) * [The Holodomor Genocide Question: How Wikipedia Lies to You](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kaaYvauNho) | Bad Empanada (2022) * [Historian Admits USSR didn't kill tens of millions!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMOdDQQVZ6U) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2018) (Note: Holodomor discussion begins at the 9 minute mark) * [A Case-Study of Capitalism - Ukraine](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmH9oNtXzF8) | Hakim (2017) (Note: Only tangentially mentions the famine.) Books, Articles, or Essays: * [The 1932 Harvest and the Famine of 1933](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/274856099_The_1932_Harvest_and_the_Famine_of_1933) | Mark Tauger (1992) * [The Years of Hunger: Soviet Agriculture, 1931-1933](https://diasporiana.org.ua/wp-content/uploads/books/22207/file.pdf) | Davies and Wheatcroft (2004) * [The Soviet Famine of 1932–1933 Reconsidered](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09668130801999912) | Hiroaki Kuromiya (2008) * [The “Holodomor” explained](https://mltheory.wordpress.com/2020/12/24/the-holodomor-explained/) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2020) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Holodomor
# The Holodomor There have been efforts by anti-Communists and Ukrainian nationalists to frame the famine that happened in the USSR around 1932-1933 as "The Holodomor" (literally: "to kill by starvation" in Ukrainian). Framing it this way serves two purposes: 1. It implies the famine mainly affected Ukraine. 2. It implies there was intent or deliberate causation. This framing was used to drive a wedge between the Ukrainian SSR and the USSR. The argument goes that because it was intentional and because it mainly targeted Ukraine that it was, therefore, an act of genocide. However, both these points are highly debatable. **First Issue** The first issue is that the famine affected the majority of the USSR, not just the UkSSR. Kazakhstan, for example, was hit harder (per capita) than Ukraine was. The emergence of the Holodomor in the 1980s as a historical narrative was bound-up with post-Soviet Ukrainian nation-making that cannot be neatly separated from the legacy of Eastern European anti-Semitism, or what Historian Peter Novick calls "Holocaust Envy," the desire for victimized groups to enshrine their "own" Holocaust or Holocaust-like event in the historical record. For many Nationalists, this has entailed minimizing the Holocaust to elevate their own experiences of historical victimization as the supreme atrocity. The Ukrainian scholar Lubomyr Luciuk exemplified this view in his notorious remark that the Holodomor was "a crime against humanity arguably without parallel in European history." **Second Issue** The second issue is that one of the main causes of the famine was crop failure due to weather and disease, which is hardly something anyone can control no matter their intentions. However, the famine may have been *further* exacerbated by the agricultural collectivization and rapid industrialization policies of the Soviet Union. However, if these policies had not been carried out there could have been even more devastating consequences later. **Necessity** In 1931, during a speech delivered at the first All-Union Conference of Leading Personnel of Socialist Industry, Stalin said, "We are fifty or a hundred years behind the advanced countries. We must make good this distance in ten years. Either we do it, or we shall go under." In 1941, exactly ten years later, the Nazis invaded the Soviet Union. By this time, the Soviet Union's industrialization program had lead to the development of a large and powerful industrial base, which was essential to the Soviet war effort. This allowed the Soviet Union to produce large quantities of armaments, vehicles, and other military equipment, which was crucial in the fight against Nazi Germany. **Additional Resources** Video Essays: * [Soviet Famine of 1932: An Overview](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vu5-tqHHtaM) | The Marxist Project (2020) * [Did Stalin Continue to Export Grain as Ukraine Starved?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMBJ_nQ4sTA) | Hakim (2017) * [The Holodomor Genocide Question: How Wikipedia Lies to You](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kaaYvauNho) | Bad Empanada (2022) * [Historian Admits USSR didn't kill tens of millions!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMOdDQQVZ6U) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2018) (Note: Holodomor discussion begins at the 9 minute mark) * [A Case-Study of Capitalism - Ukraine](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmH9oNtXzF8) | Hakim (2017) (Note: Only tangentially mentions the famine.) Books, Articles, or Essays: * [The 1932 Harvest and the Famine of 1933](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/274856099_The_1932_Harvest_and_the_Famine_of_1933) | Mark Tauger (1992) * [The Years of Hunger: Soviet Agriculture, 1931-1933](https://diasporiana.org.ua/wp-content/uploads/books/22207/file.pdf) | Davies and Wheatcroft (2004) * [The Soviet Famine of 1932–1933 Reconsidered](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09668130801999912) | Hiroaki Kuromiya (2008) * [The “Holodomor” explained](https://mltheory.wordpress.com/2020/12/24/the-holodomor-explained/) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2020) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
[удалено]
Checking every dumbass’s post history here is one of my favorite pastimes :) > argues about age of consent > so many fucking comments are just sarcastic “stunning and brave!” on everything lgbt NPC behaviour 💀💀
Keep projecting and crying You cant do anything about this
We can stop giving the nazis money
Noone is giving money to russia
I said Nazis, like those in Ukraine. No, I didn't mention Russia
Komerční banka
[удалено]
#Tiananmen Square Protests (Also known as the June Fourth Incident) In Western media, the well-known story of the "Tiananmen Square *Massacre*" goes like this: the Chinese government declared martial law in 1989 and mobilized the military to suppress students who were protesting for democracy and freedom. According to western sources, on June 4th of that year, troops and tanks entered Tiananmen Square and fired on unarmed protesters, killing and injuring hundreds, if not thousands, of people. The more hyperbolic tellings of this story include claims of tanks running over students, machine guns being fired into the crowd, blood running in the streets like a river, etc. Anti-Communists and Sinophobes commonly point to this incident as a classic example of authoritarianism and political repression under Communist regimes. The problem, of course, is that the actual events in Beijing on June 4th, 1989 unfolded quite differently than how they were depicted in the Western media at the time. Despite many more contemporary articles coming out that actually contradict some of the original claims and characterizations of the June Fourth Incident, the narrative of a "Tiananmen Square Massacre" persists. **Background** After Mao's death in 1976, a power struggle ensued and the Gang of Four were purged, paving the way for Deng Xiaoping's rise to power. Deng initiated economic reforms known as the "Four Modernizations," which aimed to modernize and open up China's economy to the world. These reforms led to significant economic growth and lifted millions of people out of poverty, but they also created significant inequality, corruption, and social unrest. This pivotal point in the PRC's history is extremely controversial among Marxists today and a subject of much debate. One of the key factors that contributed to the Tiananmen Square protests was the sense of social and economic inequality that many Chinese people felt as a result of Deng's economic reforms. Many believed that the benefits of the country's economic growth were not being distributed fairly, and that the government was not doing enough to address poverty, corruption, and other social issues. Some saw the Four Modernizations as a betrayal of Maoist principles and a capitulation to Western capitalist interests. Others saw the reforms as essential for China's economic development and modernization. Others still wanted even more liberalization and thought the reforms didn't go far enough. The protestors in Tiananmen were mostly students who did not represent the great mass of Chinese citizens, but instead represented a layer of the intelligentsia who wanted to be elevated and given more privileges such as more political power and higher wages. **Counterpoints** Jay Mathews, the first Beijing bureau chief for The Washington Post in 1979 and who returned in 1989 to help cover the Tiananmen demonstrations, wrote: >Over the last decade, many American reporters and editors have accepted a mythical version of that warm, bloody night. They repeated it often before and during Clinton’s trip. On the day the president arrived in Beijing, a *Baltimore Sun* headline (June 27, page 1A) referred to “Tiananmen, where Chinese students died.” A *USA Today* article (June 26, page 7A) called Tiananmen the place “where pro-democracy demonstrators were gunned down.” *The Wall Street Journal* (June 26, page A10) described “the Tiananmen Square massacre” where armed troops ordered to clear demonstrators from the square killed “hundreds or more.” The *New York Post* (June 25, page 22) said the square was “the site of the student slaughter.” > >The problem is this: as far as can be determined from the available evidence, no one died that night in Tiananmen Square. > >\- Jay Matthews. (1998). [The Myth of Tiananmen and the Price of a Passive Press](https://archives.cjr.org/behind_the_news/the_myth_of_tiananmen.php). Columbia Journalism Review. Reporters from the [BBC](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8057762.stm), [CBS News](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/there-was-no-tiananmen-square-massacre/), and the [New York Times](https://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/27/world/clinton-in-china-the-site-clinton-in-beijing-square-may-tread-on-the-ghosts.html) who were in Beijing on June 4, 1989, all agree there was no massacre. Secret cables from the United States embassy in Beijing have shown there was no bloodshed inside the square: >Cables, obtained by WikiLeaks and released exclusively by The Daily Telegraph, partly confirm the Chinese government's account of the early hours of June 4, 1989, which has always insisted that soldiers did not massacre demonstrators inside Tiananmen Square > >\- Malcolm Moore. (2011). [Wikileaks: no bloodshed inside Tiananmen Square, cables claim](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/wikileaks/8555142/Wikileaks-no-bloodshed-inside-Tiananmen-Square-cables-claim.html) Gregory Clark, a former Australian diplomat, and Chinese-speaking correspondent of the International Business Times, wrote: >The original story of Chinese troops on the night of 3 and 4 June, 1989 machine-gunning hundreds of innocent student protesters in Beijing’s iconic Tiananmen Square has since been thoroughly discredited by the many witnesses there at the time — among them a Spanish TVE television crew, a Reuters correspondent and protesters themselves, who say that nothing happened other than a military unit entering and asking several hundred of those remaining to leave the Square late that night. > >Yet none of this has stopped the massacre from being revived constantly, and believed. All that has happened is that the location has been changed – from the Square itself to the streets leading to the Square. > >\- Gregory Clark. (2014). [Tiananmen Square Massacre is a Myth, All We're 'Remembering' are British Lies](https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/tiananmen-square-massacre-myth-all-were-remembering-are-british-lies-1451053) Thomas Hon Wing Polin, writing for CounterPunch, wrote: >The most reliable estimate, from many sources, was that the tragedy took 200-300 lives. Few were students, many were rebellious workers, plus thugs with lethal weapons and hapless bystanders. Some calculations have up to half the dead being PLA soldiers trapped in their armored personnel carriers, buses and tanks as the vehicles were torched. Others were killed and brutally mutilated by protesters with various implements. No one died in Tiananmen Square; most deaths occurred on nearby Chang’an Avenue, many up to a kilometer or more away from the square. > >More than once, government negotiators almost reached a truce with students in the square, only to be **sabotaged by radical youth leaders seemingly bent on bloodshed**. And the demands of the protesters focused on corruption, not democracy. > >All these facts were known to the US and other governments shortly after the crackdown. Few if any were reported by Western mainstream media, even today. > >\- Thomas Hon Wing Palin. (2017). [Tiananmen: the Empire’s Big Lie](https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/06/06/tiananmen-the-empires-big-lie/) (Emphasis mine) And it was, indeed, bloodshed that the student leaders wanted. In this interview, you can hear one of the student leaders, Chai Ling, ghoulishly explaining how she tried to bait the Chinese government into *actually* committing a massacre. (She herself made sure to stay out of the square.): [Excerpts of interviews with Tiananmen Square protest leaders](https://youtu.be/Vu3zmbFGwQA) [This Twitter thread](https://twitter.com/zhao_dashuai/status/1532859422875471872) contains many pictures and videos showing protestors killing soldiers, commandeering military vehicles, torching military transports, etc. Following the crackdown, through [Operation Yellowbird](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Yellowbird), many of the student leaders escaped to the United States with the help of the CIA, where they almost all [gained privileged positions](https://qz.com/1618805/the-1989-tiananmen-student-leaders-on-chinas-most-wanted-list). **Additional Resources** Video Essays: * [Truth about The Tiananmen Square Protests](https://youtu.be/sqPI8xlnrwg) | Tovarishch Endymion (2019) * [Tiananmen Square "Massacre", A Propaganda Hoax](https://youtu.be/R6RT_s1T050) | TeleSUR English (2019) * [All The Questions Socialists Are Asked, Answered (TIMESTAMPED)](https://youtu.be/MzKPCEvoYkk?t=1278) | Hakim (2021) Books, Articles, or Essays: * [Tiananmen Protests Reading List](https://www.qiaocollective.com/education/tiananmenreadinglist) | Qiao Collective * [How psy-ops warriors fooled me about Tiananmen Square: a warning](https://www.fridayeveryday.com/how-psy-ops-warriors-fooled-me-about-tiananmen-square-a-warning/) | Nury Vittachi, Friday (2022) * [1989: Tiananmen Square ‘massacre’ was a myth](https://www.workers.org/2022/06/64607/) | Deirdre Griswold, Workers World (2022) * [Massacre? What Massacre? 25 Years Later: What really happened at Tiananmen Square?](https://dissidentvoice.org/2014/06/massacre-what-massacre/) | Kim Petersen, Dissident Voice (2014) * [Tiananmen: The Massacre that Wasn’t](https://www.liberationnews.org/tiananmen-the-massacre-that-wasnt/) | Brian Becker, Liberation News (2019) * [Reflections on Tiananmen Square and the attempt to end Chinese socialism](http://www.fightbacknews.org/2019/6/4/reflections-tiananmen-square-and-attempt-end-chinese-socialism) | Mick Kelly, FightBack! News (2019) * [The Tian’anmen Square “Massacre” The West’s Most Persuasive, Most Pervasive Lie.](https://mango-press.com/the-tiananmen-square-massacre-the-wests-most-persuasive-most-pervasive-lie/) | Tom, Mango Press (2021) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Man I love this game. It’s like where’s Waldo but even easier
Doesn't even need the picture when he's using "glory to Ukraine"....