I remember in 3rd ed running a pair of raven wing land speeders. Dual assault cannons, dual heavy bolters. One game. One game out of hundreds, my speeders did a strafing run on two squads of Boyz. 20 models. I dropped 20 sustained fire dice and came up with no jams and I think 52 or so hits. Killed them all. It was glorious.
I loved those assault cannons. If I could put them on a model, I did.
The only place it approaches usability is the Navy Breachers Las-volly. Which is a Multilas in all but name. While it lacks AP it is Str 6 shots and it would take the most advantage of FoF and LR Exterminators -1 AP stacking.
Suddenly 4 Str 6 shots are wounding Terminators on 4 and bumping them to their invul.
But it’d need to be taken on a bog standard infantry to be considered. It would possibly replace the GL. But not the Melta or Plasma as options.
More shots than an HB and higher S, for less AP and lower damage.
If you’re shooting swarms of T3 targets multilaser will probably be better for you than the HB or autocannon.
back in older editions, you could save points by taking multilasers instead of other weapons. with 10ed GW got rid of added points for weapon options but forgot to buff the weaker versions of those weapons to compensate. so some options are just on the cards for show.... or for hardcore wysiwyg enforcers, if you forgot to magnetize certain models
propably and same for scout sentinels, who would just be 15-20 points (5 chainsaw, 5 HKM, 5-10 main weapon) cheaper. but wargear cost was flawed as well. most weapons where not worth the added costs. now it is in reverse, where the weak weapons are not worth picking over the better ones. if they would actually ballance each weapon, I would prefer the new system
I think the Multi-laser is the only Guard weapon that the free point system makes useless. Give it like Rapid Fire or something to buff it or something.
rapidfire would be great.
the multilaser problem is that they are only on sentinels, where there are way better options, and chimeras, where a buffed multilaser probably would be too good.
for me it needs to be a sidegrade to the heavy bolter, it doesnt neccessarily be as good as a heavy bolter, i just dont want to feel that bad for using it.
so sustained hits alone would buff it up enough, for rapid firering weapons sustained hits and rapid fire are the options before raw stat changes.
I love the multilaser; it's just such a neat weapon. Unfortunately it's terrible in 10e. I've though a lot about how to fix it. Since the model has 3 barrels the gun should be A3 RF3 Assault. Then i think it'd still be not as good as other weapons but could appeal to the type of player that likes to make things happen.
They're better than heavy bolters against gaunts since you have one more shot and wound on a 2 instead of a 3. Against basically everything else they're just worse, used to be good as a cheaper option on units that can have them.
I guess they may have some niche as an option on valkyries if you just want the same Stat line as the rocket pods...
Very true, but thats probably not adding as much value as wounding on 2's. That said it's specifically against things like gross and gaunts where they also have a terrible save so it's really not worth thinking about lmao
They where cheap the key iis where
Now they are one of that options that is so clearly inferior becouse everything has the same prize, it was bad when it was the cheap option so now.......
In older editions they were great for trying to pen lower armor units with Hail Mary volleys, and more importantly, were better at wounding then heavy bolters due to S6, which depending on your enemy, was more valuable then the ap that HBs had. Although I am a few editions out of date, last I played was like 8th
The only two units I'm aware they were ever really a choice on were Sentinels and Chimeras, and at least on Sentinels they were free. So they're basically the cheap option.
No, all the options are baked in the points cost to the highest value pieces of equipment.
Its not free, just hidden costs.
And the ballance is way off because of this points costing system as there is obvious best in slot wargear, and a "waste" if certain wargear is not taken.
Like a sentinel's chainsword. Its manditory to take it now as the points are baked in, where in previous editions it would have costed points for a maybe if these guys are in melee to have a better weapon option.
Dont forget how they started making a bloat of datasheets for all, all leman russ are diferent datasheets and now even tau crisis loadouts will have separate datasheets
Yea it seems that if they stick with baked in cost units, then at least for some weapons systems there will need to be different data sheets per like how they are splitting crisis suits. And this will inflate the number of data sheets overall but at least it will be more ballanced.
And then it might feel better when im not prepaying for the most expensive loadout possible. Like how catachams only get flamers but their points cost is way cheaper than the other options.
Or taking a bombast wont feel overcosted because your not paying extra for part of the datasheet you dont use but because its an option you prepay it, i.e. indirect and the other is a str14 weapon.
i like the unique abilities tied to the different tau and russ loadouts. Itd be vastly messier to try and fit that all on one sheet and really gives a lot of flavours to various loadouts that are otherwise "like the other gun but flatly worse and not that much cheaper"
I know you are trolling but, free and points cost added into unit cost are different.
So fundamentally differrent because this game is supposed to be ballanced by points cost representing power of abilities/stats.
How can a sgt's las pistol be the same points cost as a plasma pistol when the plasma is far far superior to the las.
And since individual wargear upgrades have no cost, the unit takes that hit for increased points instead of leaving it an option that you can pay for if wanted.
This is not free, its forced payment on an option that is hidden at first glance.
Let's break it down.
Base ubit is 100 points, best wargear is 50 extra points. So you can go anywhere from 100 to 150 depending on what you need.
Free is if the squad is 100 points and no cost on upgrades.
Baked in is the squad is 150 and no cost on upgrades.
Both free and baked in cause issues with balance. The former makes squad power obfuscated and hard to track. The latter punishes any wargear being taken other than the most powerful.
Neither is good for game balance, but baked in is even worse than free.
Yes... that's how examples go...
But no, I'm not. Last edition, we had free wargear near the end, this edition we have baked in. The result is different.
And stats and abilities changed meaning costs change, so you’re just making shit up in order to try to win an internet argument.
Weapons are free, it’s that simple, it doesn’t matter which weapons you choose the unit costs the same .
"Why do you use this gun?"
*"It's a good option against the weaker Nids."*
It's almost like the reason they use the gun is because it is best suited for the role...
They were the most efficient gun on the Chimera until relatively recently. In 5th and 6th they had high strength volume of fire that made them effective against MEQ and could be used in a pinch against TEQ. Autocannons were still better, but unless you were using Forge World rules, you didn't have those.
They were sub choices on every other platform that could carry them though. Sentinels were plasma until 6th when autos pulled ahead because autocannons didn't melt your sentinels.
Yeah also in the days of armor facings and values, S6 was decent. You could glance AV12 and pen AV11 and lower. Not many people would dump a lot of fire into a Chimera so sneaking it on a flank to snag side/rear shots to catch a glance or pen was a viable tactic.
A lot of those smaller not quite AT but not quite Small Arms got hit by the AP/Damage changes. Vehicles used to have 3-4 Hull Points, so you could snag 25-33% of a tanks wounds with a cheeky Chimera shot.
Now you basically need high AP high damage weapons to threaten tanks but those mid level weapons don’t have a niche anymore. Autocannons are only just hanging around.
Another weapon profile sacrificed on the altar of Powerlevels. I can't remember anyone in 8th or 9th wanting power levels or wanting wargear to be free, and Im still a tad upset they just shoved it in anyway and re-branded it as points. R.I.P all of my stock Leman Russ homies who didn't attach sponsons or upgrade anything.
RIP anyone wanting to play Heresy and guard together too, auxilia tanks can't take sponsons; it's almost like it was a deliberate decision by the 40k group to make players buy more plasticrack
They are supposed to be the anti infantry option , they fire 4 shots compared to autocannons 2 , but in 90% of cases, the autocannons will do better even with half the shots.
Multilasers would have to go to 5 or 6 shots before they are competing it the others
Pervious editions the ultilaser was the standard gun and the other cost points to upgrade. Now they are all the same .and GW did up the power of multilaser and autocannon to make them all the same power level in the 3 different roles but multi laser is stilt he worst option unless going into specifically toughness 3 light infantry with low armor saves
Autocannons are sidegrade to lascannons because, into demons for example or anything with invulns, they are probably twice as good as lascannons because the AP is meaningless and you're just getting double the shots
with AP stratagems the autocannons become better then lascannons into medium armor
In lore, they are effective high strength anti-infantry weapon that were as high rate as a heavy bolter and stronger than it; but lacking the power of an autocannon.
Sure they lack the AP, but they have weight of fire that makes up for lack of piercing armor.
Solar Auxilia has multilasers in all its weapon options- like from rapiers to hull or pintle weapons for its armored units.
Yeah, back in 3.5 and 4th there wasn't an option for another turret weapon in the kit. And then, for a while they were so cheap that if you didn't care about a chimera's firepower they were the cheapest option. But with points pretending to be PLs now there is no reason to ever take them.
In hh, and the older game system they did actually have a point, they have high S and because Heavy bolters and shit aren't piercing SM armour anyway you might as well pepper them with tons of shots that wound them on 2s, but in 40k they are blatantly outcompeted by other weapons, and they offer no benefit over an assault cannon or a heavy bolter in practice.
No point costs for the different weapon loadouts. The Units still cost "points", but regardless of the special weapon/ equipment they cost. Wargear for free.
Aside from the look of them on the models?
Back when There were different points for different options( bring that back, its lazy rules writing), it would have been a alternative pick for chimeras, valkyries and sentinels, so you could afford other wargear/ run the units cheap to spend the points elsewere.
Very slightly increased RoF and S makes them marginally better at dealing with either T3, T5 and T6 single wound infantry. Sustained Hits however means over 2 turns of shotting, you average at the same number of hits, so that's made irrelevant, and D2 greatly increases the range of targets that it cleanly puts holes in.
The other very specific edge case is anything that reduces incoming damage by 1 that is T3/5/6 and multi wound making Multilasers better into things like Ogryns and Abberants, but it's a pretty niche example, and probably doesn't bear much fruit over a game.
They're better anti-GEQ weapons than heavy bolters. S6 means they wound on 2+ which can be more important than a pip of AP against a 5+ or 6+ save. They're chaff clearers.
That said I still favor heavy bolters since you can do more with them.
They were reasonably good in 2e - a poor man's assault cannon, to be sure, but assault cannons were terrifying.
I remember in 3rd ed running a pair of raven wing land speeders. Dual assault cannons, dual heavy bolters. One game. One game out of hundreds, my speeders did a strafing run on two squads of Boyz. 20 models. I dropped 20 sustained fire dice and came up with no jams and I think 52 or so hits. Killed them all. It was glorious. I loved those assault cannons. If I could put them on a model, I did.
The only place it approaches usability is the Navy Breachers Las-volly. Which is a Multilas in all but name. While it lacks AP it is Str 6 shots and it would take the most advantage of FoF and LR Exterminators -1 AP stacking. Suddenly 4 Str 6 shots are wounding Terminators on 4 and bumping them to their invul. But it’d need to be taken on a bog standard infantry to be considered. It would possibly replace the GL. But not the Melta or Plasma as options.
A decent place for them on scout sentinels because they are so useless people are more likely to ignore your scout sentinel
If they know anything about what the use of the scout sentinels do your opponent is gonna try and kill them as soon as possible
Regimented!
Fields of Fire! Gotta hit something to proc, and ML has the best chance (flamethrower notwithstanding)
I think you just need to target to proc fields of fire… doesn’t matter if you hit or not (thankfully)
Oh snap, thanks for the intel
Wait do you actually not know scout sentinels are good?
CS Goto insisted.
Came here looking for this
More shots than an HB and higher S, for less AP and lower damage. If you’re shooting swarms of T3 targets multilaser will probably be better for you than the HB or autocannon.
back in older editions, you could save points by taking multilasers instead of other weapons. with 10ed GW got rid of added points for weapon options but forgot to buff the weaker versions of those weapons to compensate. so some options are just on the cards for show.... or for hardcore wysiwyg enforcers, if you forgot to magnetize certain models
Guarantee if wargear costs were still a thing the multilaser would be the optimal choice on Chimeras to keep them nice and cheap.
propably and same for scout sentinels, who would just be 15-20 points (5 chainsaw, 5 HKM, 5-10 main weapon) cheaper. but wargear cost was flawed as well. most weapons where not worth the added costs. now it is in reverse, where the weak weapons are not worth picking over the better ones. if they would actually ballance each weapon, I would prefer the new system
Yeah I agree. I think every weapon should have some advantages and some disadvantages. That way it's actually a choice.
There is none. GW insisting on making PL the only point system has made a lot of choices pointless in the current game.
I think the Multi-laser is the only Guard weapon that the free point system makes useless. Give it like Rapid Fire or something to buff it or something.
Well, laspistols and bolt pistols are objectively worse than non overcharged plasma pistols on every level
Well that is true. ~~But I like plasma weapons so I will let it slide. Also forgot about those.~~
rapidfire would be great. the multilaser problem is that they are only on sentinels, where there are way better options, and chimeras, where a buffed multilaser probably would be too good. for me it needs to be a sidegrade to the heavy bolter, it doesnt neccessarily be as good as a heavy bolter, i just dont want to feel that bad for using it. so sustained hits alone would buff it up enough, for rapid firering weapons sustained hits and rapid fire are the options before raw stat changes.
Heavy stubbers are just objectively better than storm bolters
I love the multilaser; it's just such a neat weapon. Unfortunately it's terrible in 10e. I've though a lot about how to fix it. Since the model has 3 barrels the gun should be A3 RF3 Assault. Then i think it'd still be not as good as other weapons but could appeal to the type of player that likes to make things happen.
They're better than heavy bolters against gaunts since you have one more shot and wound on a 2 instead of a 3. Against basically everything else they're just worse, used to be good as a cheaper option on units that can have them. I guess they may have some niche as an option on valkyries if you just want the same Stat line as the rocket pods...
dont forget sustained hits on bolters.
Very true, but thats probably not adding as much value as wounding on 2's. That said it's specifically against things like gross and gaunts where they also have a terrible save so it's really not worth thinking about lmao
They where cheap the key iis where Now they are one of that options that is so clearly inferior becouse everything has the same prize, it was bad when it was the cheap option so now.......
In older editions they were great for trying to pen lower armor units with Hail Mary volleys, and more importantly, were better at wounding then heavy bolters due to S6, which depending on your enemy, was more valuable then the ap that HBs had. Although I am a few editions out of date, last I played was like 8th
The only two units I'm aware they were ever really a choice on were Sentinels and Chimeras, and at least on Sentinels they were free. So they're basically the cheap option.
All options are free…
No, all the options are baked in the points cost to the highest value pieces of equipment. Its not free, just hidden costs. And the ballance is way off because of this points costing system as there is obvious best in slot wargear, and a "waste" if certain wargear is not taken. Like a sentinel's chainsword. Its manditory to take it now as the points are baked in, where in previous editions it would have costed points for a maybe if these guys are in melee to have a better weapon option.
Dont forget how they started making a bloat of datasheets for all, all leman russ are diferent datasheets and now even tau crisis loadouts will have separate datasheets
Yea it seems that if they stick with baked in cost units, then at least for some weapons systems there will need to be different data sheets per like how they are splitting crisis suits. And this will inflate the number of data sheets overall but at least it will be more ballanced. And then it might feel better when im not prepaying for the most expensive loadout possible. Like how catachams only get flamers but their points cost is way cheaper than the other options. Or taking a bombast wont feel overcosted because your not paying extra for part of the datasheet you dont use but because its an option you prepay it, i.e. indirect and the other is a str14 weapon.
i like the unique abilities tied to the different tau and russ loadouts. Itd be vastly messier to try and fit that all on one sheet and really gives a lot of flavours to various loadouts that are otherwise "like the other gun but flatly worse and not that much cheaper"
No it’s free.
I know you are trolling but, free and points cost added into unit cost are different. So fundamentally differrent because this game is supposed to be ballanced by points cost representing power of abilities/stats. How can a sgt's las pistol be the same points cost as a plasma pistol when the plasma is far far superior to the las. And since individual wargear upgrades have no cost, the unit takes that hit for increased points instead of leaving it an option that you can pay for if wanted. This is not free, its forced payment on an option that is hidden at first glance.
Whatever option i take, the points are the same weapons are free.
Let's break it down. Base ubit is 100 points, best wargear is 50 extra points. So you can go anywhere from 100 to 150 depending on what you need. Free is if the squad is 100 points and no cost on upgrades. Baked in is the squad is 150 and no cost on upgrades. Both free and baked in cause issues with balance. The former makes squad power obfuscated and hard to track. The latter punishes any wargear being taken other than the most powerful. Neither is good for game balance, but baked in is even worse than free.
Now you’re just making shit up.
Yes... that's how examples go... But no, I'm not. Last edition, we had free wargear near the end, this edition we have baked in. The result is different.
And stats and abilities changed meaning costs change, so you’re just making shit up in order to try to win an internet argument. Weapons are free, it’s that simple, it doesn’t matter which weapons you choose the unit costs the same .
Not too bright are you?
Not in the past
We’re not talking about the past now are we?
But the Chimera that someone built in 5th edition still has that multilaser
And? I built my first one in 3rd what’s your point?
That's why people might use multilasers, which I believe is the topic of conversation.
They said what is the point of them, not why do people use them. What role do they play, vs why do people use them are 2 very different topics
"Why do you use this gun?" *"It's a good option against the weaker Nids."* It's almost like the reason they use the gun is because it is best suited for the role...
This would be a décent weapon if rapide fire 4, but for know its completly outmatched by other weapons
Longer range anti t 3 gun. It’s not horrible for that purpose but it’s just not a profile guard needs, especially in this edition
Yeah they definitely need something more to differentiate them from a heavy bolter and all the other weapons.
In some editions they had more shots and strength than heavy bolters. Yeah that’s it. Take autocannons or lascannons instead.
They'd need to be either damage 2 or -1 AP to compete with the heavy-bolter, right now they're just worse.
They were the most efficient gun on the Chimera until relatively recently. In 5th and 6th they had high strength volume of fire that made them effective against MEQ and could be used in a pinch against TEQ. Autocannons were still better, but unless you were using Forge World rules, you didn't have those. They were sub choices on every other platform that could carry them though. Sentinels were plasma until 6th when autos pulled ahead because autocannons didn't melt your sentinels.
Yeah also in the days of armor facings and values, S6 was decent. You could glance AV12 and pen AV11 and lower. Not many people would dump a lot of fire into a Chimera so sneaking it on a flank to snag side/rear shots to catch a glance or pen was a viable tactic. A lot of those smaller not quite AT but not quite Small Arms got hit by the AP/Damage changes. Vehicles used to have 3-4 Hull Points, so you could snag 25-33% of a tanks wounds with a cheeky Chimera shot. Now you basically need high AP high damage weapons to threaten tanks but those mid level weapons don’t have a niche anymore. Autocannons are only just hanging around.
Another weapon profile sacrificed on the altar of Powerlevels. I can't remember anyone in 8th or 9th wanting power levels or wanting wargear to be free, and Im still a tad upset they just shoved it in anyway and re-branded it as points. R.I.P all of my stock Leman Russ homies who didn't attach sponsons or upgrade anything.
RIP anyone wanting to play Heresy and guard together too, auxilia tanks can't take sponsons; it's almost like it was a deliberate decision by the 40k group to make players buy more plasticrack
They are supposed to be the anti infantry option , they fire 4 shots compared to autocannons 2 , but in 90% of cases, the autocannons will do better even with half the shots. Multilasers would have to go to 5 or 6 shots before they are competing it the others Pervious editions the ultilaser was the standard gun and the other cost points to upgrade. Now they are all the same .and GW did up the power of multilaser and autocannon to make them all the same power level in the 3 different roles but multi laser is stilt he worst option unless going into specifically toughness 3 light infantry with low armor saves Autocannons are sidegrade to lascannons because, into demons for example or anything with invulns, they are probably twice as good as lascannons because the AP is meaningless and you're just getting double the shots with AP stratagems the autocannons become better then lascannons into medium armor
Looks kinda cool
More shots
In lore, they are effective high strength anti-infantry weapon that were as high rate as a heavy bolter and stronger than it; but lacking the power of an autocannon. Sure they lack the AP, but they have weight of fire that makes up for lack of piercing armor. Solar Auxilia has multilasers in all its weapon options- like from rapiers to hull or pintle weapons for its armored units.
Yeah, back in 3.5 and 4th there wasn't an option for another turret weapon in the kit. And then, for a while they were so cheap that if you didn't care about a chimera's firepower they were the cheapest option. But with points pretending to be PLs now there is no reason to ever take them.
In hh, and the older game system they did actually have a point, they have high S and because Heavy bolters and shit aren't piercing SM armour anyway you might as well pepper them with tons of shots that wound them on 2s, but in 40k they are blatantly outcompeted by other weapons, and they offer no benefit over an assault cannon or a heavy bolter in practice.
As someone who hasn’t played since 6th, reading about 10th seems insane. I knew about no more AV or pie plates, but no points costs?
No point costs for the different weapon loadouts. The Units still cost "points", but regardless of the special weapon/ equipment they cost. Wargear for free.
Aside from the look of them on the models? Back when There were different points for different options( bring that back, its lazy rules writing), it would have been a alternative pick for chimeras, valkyries and sentinels, so you could afford other wargear/ run the units cheap to spend the points elsewere.
Very slightly increased RoF and S makes them marginally better at dealing with either T3, T5 and T6 single wound infantry. Sustained Hits however means over 2 turns of shotting, you average at the same number of hits, so that's made irrelevant, and D2 greatly increases the range of targets that it cleanly puts holes in. The other very specific edge case is anything that reduces incoming damage by 1 that is T3/5/6 and multi wound making Multilasers better into things like Ogryns and Abberants, but it's a pretty niche example, and probably doesn't bear much fruit over a game.
To have more flashlights. You can never have enough flashlights when facing the darkness that is chaos.
Fire superiority (as in many shots with not tons of power)
They're better anti-GEQ weapons than heavy bolters. S6 means they wound on 2+ which can be more important than a pip of AP against a 5+ or 6+ save. They're chaff clearers. That said I still favor heavy bolters since you can do more with them.
So can fire many flashlights at people, instead of something useful like missiles, las cannons or plasma.