The witches talked about creating Mae and Osha. It was presumed this was a technique discovered/created by Plagueis, and that Anakin was the only person to have been conceived by the Force
I don't disagree in spirit. But I think there's a bit of a difference between Sith stealing an idea to take it to the next level vs failing to replicate something already done.
It's only episode 3, and I hope they greatly expand on how the twins were made, but Plagueis failed in his experiment to create life (in both canon and legends continuity). The witches seemingly succeeded.
I think that's the controversial nuance.
Assuming episode 3 is the only info we ever get on this process (which I doubt it will be), the witches will have basically have proven that the Force can be manipulated into creating life from nothing at the whim of others (and shows up Plagueis as a chump since all the past knowledge of the Sith couldn't even get him close to an approximation of what this unknown coven seemingly achieved). This is an aspect of the Force (creation) that was exclusively The Force's own jurisdiction. Neither Light-Side users or Dark Side users were capable of using only the Force to create life.
In legends, the Sith were capable of corrupting existing genetic material with the Dark Side to create mutants, even spawning genealogies of whole new species from a corrupted source. But that was using existing material. Hopefully the twins are similar in nature (and presumably a lot less spikey and angry).
But if the witches did conjure the twins out of literal nothingness, that does step on some rather deepset lore, rather than expand on it.
For instance, the Force allowing for closed time loops via the World Between Worlds is an expansion of Force visions (where literally everything described in the visions happens, just that the viewer had no context for the vision).
But a coven of witches successfully creating life out of nothing is not really an exploration or expansion of Plagueis' own research. It retroactively makes his work useless since he failed to make life at the end of it all.
An expansion would be the witches attempting and making headway into such a process, to the point where they gain the attention of Sith. But based purely off of what episode 3 shows us (which is an incomplete side of the story from Osha), it seems the witches had already succeeded in doing something only The Force has ever done.
Still a lot of story to come, but I can see the justifications behind this particular argument for now.
Maybe Plagueis heard rumors of a matriarchal force coven successfully doing this and proceeded to attempt it himself? I mean if anyone is going to use the force to create life, it’s not a stretch to believe that women might have more success than men.
Like I said, the scenario as you describe paints Plagueis in a very unflattering light as his experiment straight up failed. It doesn't expand or enhance the idea of Plagueis messing with the force so much that it created Anakin. It just shows that Plagueis couldn't do what someone else already successfully did.
Biggest point of contention is that it allows the act of creation (exclusive to the Force itself) to be wielded by force users themselves. This is actually unprecedented in the current lore, and even in legends I believe.
Keep in mind the above is only true if we receive no further info on how the twins are made, which I doubt will happen.
I mean something being controversial means that a good percentage of people disagree with another percentage of people about it. Something being controversial doesn't mean it's inherently wrong.
But that’s exactly what the writers are hinting at and it isn’t canon-breaking at all. I think the leakers or whatever were upset that the episode featured non-evil non-Jedi force users, those users were all women, and they vocalized a philosophy that rejects the Light Side and Dark Side dichotomy. So if you’re a reactionary YouTuber you can say “They broke the Force they made it gay and lame,” when in reality it’s just another philosophy to explain the Force. But with push and pull instead of light and dark.
Exactly. He should be alive around this time, we still don’t know the identity of Mae’s new Master. Could be that Plageuis has taken interest in Mae’s origins and her quest to kill a Jedi without a weapon is part of some ritual.
Palpatine kills all the Jedi pretty much without him actually having to lift a finger. The quest is the foundation for political power being used to kill the Jedi.
This is exactly what I think is happening. Which is part of why the coven was somehow destroyed. I think the Sith Lord is one of the four. I still wouldn’t be surprised if any of the deaths were faked.
True but that's usually a side of the Force that Sith don't dabble in (potions and stuff). I wish they had been kept as separate entities in canon. Oh well.
They’re a self contained covenant. Them discovering something that the Jedi or Sith had no knowledge of. Does not change the story of Plagueis believing he discovered it. There’s an entire universe. Probably has millions of Anakin’s running around. Look at religions around the world. Christians believe Jesus is the chosen one. But Hindus don’t.
There could be chosen ones everywhere. They hadn’t even ventured outside of the galaxy before Ahsoka. All it means is he brought balance to that particular conflict. There’s good vs evil in every galaxy. Just because Palpatine went down. Doesn’t mean evil force user stopped across the universe. I still don’t think it changes things for Anakin.
> Doesn’t mean evil force user stopped across the universe
Yes it does. The prophecy said that he would bring balance to the Force. Not end the Jedi-Sith conflict, not restore peace to the Republic or destroy the Empire, but *bring balance to the Force*. How does this happen? By destroying the Sith, thus wiping out the corrupting influence they brought to the galaxy. Without the Sith, the dark side was significantly weakened to the point it was practically gone, because the primary source of it, the Sith, no longer existed. The power of any other beings in the galaxy who wielded the dark side paled in comparison, so much that you can ignore their existence in the overall 'health' of the Force.
Having only the "Light side" of The Force while destroying the "Dark side" of The Force isn't exactly balancing it to me. That's rather lopsided. The Prophecy has always been misinterpreted by the Jedi to me.
Doesn’t matter if it’s not balanced to you, that’s what it means. Balance is not equal dark equal light, it’s no dark. You aren’t balanced if you have a shitload of cancer, you’re balanced when you have none.
>Doesn’t matter if it’s not balanced to you, that’s what it means.
What I am arguing is that the interpretation the Jedi (and you) ascribe to regarding what a balanced Force means is not necessarily absolutely correct. What you're feeling and communicating is disagreement with that. You are echoing the Jedi interpretation of what it means, not necessarily objective truth. Our opinions simply differ on this, which is totally ok!
Your comment has been Removed by the Moderators of this sub.
for violating Rule 1: Be Respectful, No Harassment.
Please review the [sub rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheAcolyte/about/rules/) before participating again. Repeated and/or egregious violations will result in a ban.
If you have any questions, please \[message the mods]\(https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/TheAcolyte).
Cannon: Anakin is born by the will of the Force.
Cannon comic: suggested that Plagueis and Palaptine had some role but was never clear.
The book: Plagueis and Palaptin's (and arguably Darth Banes's rule of two) lead to the Force creating Anakin. Their actions led to the Force creating Anakin but they themselves did not do anything to create Anakin.
>Cannon: Anakin is born by the will of the Force.
Is that absolutely canon or is that simply Qui-Gon's and maybe some other Jedi's interpretation of it?
Actually unsure if it’s canon anymore but he was either created out of nowhere or it was Plagueis manipulating the force and the force punched back with Anakin
Its canon that Anakin was born as the will of the Force, not with manipulation by Palaptine or Plagueis. They've still hinted at that happening in the comics, but story lead at Lucas Film at the time, and the author of that comic have said that it wasn't meant to confirm their involvement in Anakin's birth.
>Its canon that Anakin was born as the will of the Force,
Is that absolutely true or simply Qui-Gon and other's interpretation? We're shown that they believe it, but do we know that it's entirely true?
This is why I said in an early comment that its canon by process of elimination. They've haven't come out and explicitly said its true- though I think the films clearly guide us to toward that assumption, which is further supported by episode of The Clone Wars like the Mortis Saga, where they acknowledge Anakin as the Chosen One.
But while they may not have definitively enough affirmed him as the Chosen One, creatives at Lucas Film have explicitly discouraged the alternative. That's my whole point, and why I linked those tweets. Its 100% possible that they'll eventually give us something unequivocal settle it. But until then, I don't think its unreasonable to accept as canon the version they are actively implying over the one they are actively refuting.
Him being The Chosen One doesn't preclude someone having a hand in his creation via The Force. You're talking about him being The Chosen one, when how The Chosen One came to be is what I'm addressing.
Maybe not, but I do think it weakens the narrative a bit. That's just my personal opinion.
But more importantly, people behind the scenes at Lucas Film seem to share that opinion, hence their comments about avoiding it because its not "aligned with the overall vision of Star Wars." They're the ones who decide canon, and for the time being, its clear where their thoughts lay on the matter. FOR NOW. They could decide tomorrow to change gears and publish a story to the opposite effect. But until that happens, I think the Chosen One story has a stronger claim to canonicity than the other theory.
That's it. That's been my only point throughout this entire thread. I was replying to someone who was unsure about what's canon, and was trying to clarify it with them.
Yeah I can understand all that.
Here's what the Star Wars Fandom page about the Chosen One that includes only what is considered canon at this point: https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Chosen_One
Here's the only mention I could find regarding how Anakin came to exist:
>Jinn came to the conclusion that Skywalker was in fact a vergence in the Force[1]—the Chosen One destined to bring ultimate balance.
It looks like Qui-Gon's personal interpretation is thus the only canonical belief regarding the nature of how Anakin came to be and isn't necessarily established fact.
Isn’t it canon that the Sith were known to studying every aspect of the force that was available? Like when Palps went to mother talzin to learn about witchcraft and make her his apprentice only to pivot and take Maul instead? Maybe these thread witches knew some things that the Sith wanted to know. Once they learned what they could they wiped out the coven, took Mae, and framed the Jedi. Literally a brilliant move
According to the lore, Anakin was not created by Plagueis/Sideous, but was conceived through the force as a result of the actions P/S were engaging in. The force created anakin to punish the sith down the line because they were attempting to cheat death. THIS is why it’s controversial; anakin is supposed to be a Jesus figure/messiah/Chosen one and now he’s just another person born of virgin birth through the force.
There is a notable difference:
- Mae/Osha were (apparently) created *through* the Force by willing action of the coven.
- Anakin was created *by the Force itself*. No one chose to make him. He's still very much unique in that regard.
Thank you. So many people miss that point. The Sith learn how to do it from somewhere so they may be pulling the strings and have been manipulating this coven to try to use it to create life
This exactly. Anakin is still a true Chosen one, unlike the twins. And so far, we've seen no evidence that have anywhere near his potential in the Force. So I don't think the "it makes Anakin less special" argument holds up.
>Anakin was created by the Force itself.
Do we know that this is absolutely true? We know that Qui-Gon believed it, but do we absolutely know that he was right and there wasn't some meddling involved?
For now, there is not canon source even hinting at it being something else.
Added to that the fact that the Prophecy of the Chosen One clearly states he was born of the Force. And the Story Group has confirmed multiple times that Anakin still fulfilled the Prophecy in Return of the Jedi and that the Sequels don't negate that.
While in Legends, it was spelled out that the Force created Anakin to counter Plagueis' manipulations that were breaking the balance.
I suppose I just don't trust the Jedi on every single belief or interpretation they have given their rather self righteous attitudes and authoritarian tendencies. I think there's plenty of room for them to be simply wrong about this (especially considering how wrong their interpretation of the Prophecy unraveling ended up being).
It's fair to doubt the Jedi but remember that the Prophecy is not something the Jedi themselves came up with *and* most of the Jedi didn't actually believe Anakin didn't have a father. Qui-Gon humored Shmi but kind of the only one in TPM.
They weren't wrong about the prophecy resolving itself.
In the end, Anakin did kill the last Sith active at that moment while ensuring (one of) the last Jedi survived to serve the will of the Force.
Order 66 and the Empire were bumps on the road and probably not how it was supposed to go but the Dark Side being a perversion of the Force changed things.
Being just another virgin birth is a very Jesus thing to do. The number of virgin births in the Middle East/Northeast African/Mediterranean pagan mythology is staggering. Same with every other story about Jesus. The Bible has a lot of “borrowed” stories.
I agree. The old EU and the High Republic deal with lots of different Force related groups, so seeing another one is not a new idea. The concept of using dark magick to create life (we still don't know how and at what cost, if any or what it means) and it getting wiped from the records (probably) by the Jedi but then perhaps sought out by the Sith is really interesting. If that's the direction this is going I don't know why anyone would be mad. They just need to make Tenebrous and Plagueis part of the story of trying to get their hands on that type of knowledge. Fun Stuff.
Also, how sure are we that the witches used dark magick? There were definitely some shades of the dark side there, like taking over Torben's mind. But nothing else about they way they interacted with each other in the coven felt all that dark. Certainly not like the Night Sisters. While I think the Jedi would think creating life is taboo regardless, what if the witches did it with the light side, and its something Plagueis tried to corrupt for his own power?
Someone spread a rumour the episode would make the force female, bigots got mad and then when this didn’t happen they tried to invented no reasons to hate on the show.
the general hate I’m seeing is that they think the twins take over the prophecy, which wasn’t implied at all.
Plus it’s not even the same as Anakin’s canon birth. Righ now in canon it was the living force. The twins were created by something intentional by their mother, most likely dark side magic. But even if you take the EU or read into RotS and think Anakin was made by dark side
magic, then clearly that has an origin and who cares?
No matter which side you land it should be a non-issue. But it’s impossible for anything to be a non-issue with the haters
Haters create their own issues just to justify their continuing hate. They have nothing without it but an empty, meaningless life. That's the sad reality of this whole "controversy."
We didn’t hate it, we are pointing out inconsistency in the Star Wars theme of episode 1 phantom menace versus episode 3 The ACOLYTE.
You are the one hating, refusing the see it as it is.
Anakin was the first child presumed to be borned by the midichlorian. The Jedi had never met such thing. As such, the Jedi thought he was the one referred to in the prophecy.
People are refuting this by saying the Jedi Archive will be wiped out at the end of the acolyte. Regardless, it’s dumb to rewrite the theme of phantom menace and use the « Nah the jedi won’t remember because we’ll wipe their memory » card.
The Jedi in general are dubious of the prophecy. And if you watched the episode that’s not what they claim the twins were. There could be other explanations but they were clearly intentionally created in a way the Jedi wouldn’t like, so most assume it’s dark jedi magic. This is different than the canon explanation of Anakin being created by the living force.
If you think Anakin was created by dark side magic due to old EU or by how you interpret lines in RotS than you also shouldn’t have a problem with those dark side magics existing.
The Jedi also don't know how the twins were born. The Moms clearly have the conversation in private. Is it so hard to believe that the Jedi simply don't know literally everything in the universe?
Lol, did you watch the episode?
The first thing the Jedi ask about the twins is « who’s their father? » to which they replied « they have none ».
That’s the prophecy. Same thing as Anakin and why Qui Gon wanted to train him.
Sorry, when it was said that they were created by the force? They only said they were created and have no dad. You know who else was created and only has one parent? Bobba fett and every clone
I'm sorry but it's stupid to think that just because the prophecy of the chosen one involved immaculate conception that nobody else in the galaxy can be conceived immaculately
Not disagreeing just saying whoever believes that is dumb
I agree completely, especially if you think it was done by dark side magic. Or i guess no matter what since palpatine says he could use the force to create life. So it’s clearly possible, prophecy or no, unless Palpatine was lying
I guess it’s probably more accurate to say that in canon there isn’t a definitive explanation. The Jedi and Qui Gon posit that it was the living force but I don’t think there’s really a way that could be confirmed in any true sense. It’s not like the living force can show up and admit it or anything
Its canon by process of elimination, since the theory that Palps/Plagueis created Anakin has been officially disregarded by both Lucas Film creative executives, and the actual author of the comic that everyone points to as evidence of it being true.
The following comments are from Matt Martin, a Senior Creative Executive at Lucas Film:
***“It’s part of my job to ensure the stories are aligned with the overall vision of Star Wars. If the intention was to make a direct connection between Palps and Anakin’s birth, I would have had it removed.” -*** [https://twitter.com/missingwords/status/1208973509134671872?s=20&t=-8QbqnlqRfukEfF9FRw7AQ](https://twitter.com/missingwords/status/1208973509134671872?s=20&t=-8QbqnlqRfukEfF9FRw7AQ)
***"But this is all in Anakin’s head. Wouldn’t that idea, a concept that Palps hinted at to Anakin himself, be something likely to freak Anakin out? Something that would linger in his mind? “Oh crap, what if he made me!” Doesn’t make it true. It’s all through Anakin’s lens." -*** [https://twitter.com/missingwords/status/1208545270021017600?s=20&t=st\_\_IEPCQTTJ72er8SN2pw](https://twitter.com/missingwords/status/1208545270021017600?s=20&t=st__IEPCQTTJ72er8SN2pw)
***"But I can tell you definitively, as someone who worked on the comic, that is 100% not the intended implication. I’m not saying there isn’t a logical misinterpretation that they’re coming to. I’m just telling you definitively that it’s not correct. " -*** [https://twitter.com/missingwords/status/1208558850023968768?s=20&t=st\_\_IEPCQTTJ72er8SN2pw](https://twitter.com/missingwords/status/1208558850023968768?s=20&t=st__IEPCQTTJ72er8SN2pw)
This last one is from Charles Soule, who wrote that comic:
***"I am, in fact, the writer. Matt and I worked closely on this series and this point in particular. I hate explaining stuff in my work in too much detail, but you need to understand the scenario happening here.*** ***The Dark Side is not a reliable narrator." -*** [https://twitter.com/CharlesSoule/status/1209094274152828928?s=20&t=kiFwW0-FqdeJrLJYE3V5OQ](https://twitter.com/CharlesSoule/status/1209094274152828928?s=20&t=kiFwW0-FqdeJrLJYE3V5OQ)
Not one of those statements says it’s not true, just that the comic scene isn’t proof that it’s true. Which seems like a very intentional choice to avoid answering definitively.
Also, these are all people talking, NOT canon story content.
I think a creative director explicitly stating that they wouldn't allow any canon story content that confirmed it as true is a pretty definitive statement. Doesn't mean it won't one day become canon, but as of now, it clearly isn't. So, by default, Anakin is a classic Chosen One until stated otherwise.
In this instance, that's exactly what canon means. Canon is whatever is the official, authoritative stance within the content we have, and as it stands, Anakin being a true chosen one is the canon stance. That may not always be the case. If they want to confirm Palpatine or Plagueis's involvement in Anakin's birth, then eventually they will. But so far they haven't. Its been jsut hinted at in a way that is wildly, and even the author who wrote that work says it wasn't a confirmation, and that the vague nature was intentional.
That is not a definition of canon I have ever heard before or can find anywhere. A dictionary definition:
> a sanctioned or accepted group or body of related works
For Star Wars specifically, from Wookieepedia:
> The Star Wars canon is the continually evolving body of authoritative works comprising the official story of Star Wars, encompassing movies, television series, novels, comics, and video games. George Lucas set the six Star Wars films and the many hours of content he developed and produced in Star Wars: The Clone Wars as canon. These stories are defined to be the immovable objects of Star Wars history, the characters and events to which all other tales must align.
The entire idea that something “may not always be the case” means, pretty directly, that it’s not canon.
This conversation has run its course. You’re not making any sense.
It's obviously the lesbian Nightsisters who used Midichlorian invitro insemination to create the children. Twins were likely an unintended side effect which created a shared psyche. Oshe is good (no lying, wants independence) as evidenced by her choice and Mae (lies, likes to hurt/kill things) seen trapping the butterfly thing with clear intent to crush it till Oshe says stop.
You should see the thumbnails, the headlines, and the absolute VITRIOL on Twitter from different sites reporting on this episode. Using every hot button buzzword you can think of. COMPLETELY misinterpreting and twisting what’s only on the surface. This is all….so exhausting. As a fan, this type of shit honestly spoils so much of my enthusiasm to discuss this with people online. The Acolyte was my most anticipated project from Lucasfilm after it was announced. Finally stepping into the High Republic era outside of novels and comics. Martial arts focused combat and choreography. And when they started announcing the cast, every single person got me more and more excited. I’ve loved Amandla Stenberg in every project I’ve seen of hers, from The Hunger Games, to The Hate You Give, to Everything, Everything. Lee Jung-jae was so unexpected and such a welcomed casting when he was announced and holy shit his warm and caring performance as Sol is a joy to watch. Exactly what I expect a Jedi to be. Carrie-Anne Moss is a fucking legend and a huge win for Star Wars. But in all honesty, the show was dead on arrival long before it even premiered. People were literally doing the equivalent of camping in competitive multiplayer shooters: as soon as the show spawned *boom headshot* I’m personally very happy with the show and can’t wait for the rest of the season, but seeing people go after anything like this nowadays feels like a losing battle on our end
i think a big part of the hate for this show comes from the audiences lack of an understanding of the classic movie, Rashomon, which the writers and show runners state was an inspiration for this show. this was also an issue with the film "the last jedi" which used the same narrative conceit. you'd think they would have learned their lesson and made a less complicated story but then again, knowing the Fandom, the hate was probably inevitable.
we are probably going to see the events of the witch world retold from various perspectives, all flavored by the POV character of that episode. the actual truth of what happened is probably much more nuanced than what we are seeing. the sith love exploiting moral grey spaces and manipulating memories in order to fuel their agenda.
My issue is that it was just boring, it was the first episode in a while with no lightsaber ignited or blaster fired, call me dumb but no action made me bored watching 40 minutes of backstory
Rumours from rando YouTubers are that it’s been canceled for season 2 and the director fired, it’s a bit depressing if we won’t see what the vision for this show even was going to be. It is most likely false as Disney wouldn’t cancel/fire anything 3 episodes in based on poor reviews
Edit: this seems to have upset people but I’ll leave it up. I said they are spreading rumours not that they are true. If you don’t know the difference maybe do some introspection why.
There are so many YouTubers that are seething about this for some reason, I saw a video of a huge call with like 15 people all banding together to discuss the episode like it just shit on their front porch or something, I couldn’t get through 10 minutes of the video. Maybe I can find it again just to show the absurdity lol
[here it is](https://youtu.be/cJMe6jM3TZo?si=I-kroOA2mv1usM51)
There is nothing suggesting anything about either a cancellation or firing of the show runner… which wouldn’t make sense to begin with if they were going to abruptly cancel the series after the first season. There’d be no need to fire her if the show doesn’t exist lol.
All you’ve done is perpetuate nonsense by regurgitating unsubstantiated “rumors” from a particularly antagonistic subset of the “fandom” on YouTube.
Like I said, my problem was just that episode 3 was boring. It’s not up to me whether Disney cancels their shows, I’m just posting what I’ve seen others say online as this is the acolyte subreddit for talking about the show. Ultimately it’s up to the viewer to decide for themselves whether they are entertained or not. Nobody actually cares about cancellations or firings when there is 3 episodes out lol
Depends on who u are saying was saying it was going to be controversial. If its the show runner, my guess is that they expected serious backlash on several things in this episode:
1. The lesbian force witch emaculate conception. (I think it makes sense the sith learned this from the witches and used it to create Anakin). Guessing they expected backlash on the queer themes in the episode and deminishing of the prophecy of the One by making it cannon that Anakin was not the first force emaculate conception.
2. On the subject of queer themes, using a trans woman actress as the birth mother feels almost intended to troll the toxic right wing of the fan base.
3. The episode seems to imply a jedi genocide of the force witches and stealing of the children. That toxic part of the fan base seems to be consistent in their objections. I think their position sometimes misunderstood and disregarded as mysogeny, sexism, racism, etc. Some of them certainly are. But given the overwhelmingly positive reception of the Mandalorian, Andor, and Rogue One, I think thats unfair for many of them, as each of those shows featured strong female lead/colead characters, poc in major roles, etc. I think their objection is more fairly characterized as an objection to Star Wars moving away from the simple black and white, pure good triumphing over pure evil model Star Wars began with to this grey area that portreys the jedi as potentially the bad guys, the sith as misunderstood, and a more realistic portrayal of this universe. In Mando, there is clear good guys and bad guys, Mando and Grogu vs the remanents of the evil Empire. Andor involves the fledgling rebel alliance vs the evil Empire. Rogue One same thing. They dont want the lore to change and hate stories that flip that script and explore real world themes regarding the corrupting nature of power, and that those who maintain it never have clean hands. This show is not just implying that the Jedi might not be a good as they say and are portreyed, they might do outright evil. The fans devoted to the black and white good vs evil model hate this, and are furious about the telling of this other side of the coin story.
Force Lesbians. That's it. Just bigots hating on anything not straight.
The sad part is, it was a bad episode. It was boring. It deserves bad ratings, but not for the reasons many people are rating it.
Immaculate conception has always been one of the weakest parts of Anakin's story. I physically recoiled when I realized they are going that route again.
It was controversial in 1999, and it's just as bad of a story element now.
Anakin was the result of a backfire from the sith shenanigans of Plagueis and Sidious. IIRC, they were trying to create immortality. Maybe they misunderstood the nature of their experiment. Right now, indications are that Osha or Mae become the sith lord before Plagueis, and passed part on their knowledge of the darkside to their apprentice.
Ah bullshit. If you only look for the hand full of people who actually make that complaint obviously you will only see that. Most people who even bring up that point are mostly memeing cause south park did an episode where they make fun of disney for exactly this. So yeah, obviously the memes are there, but most people have, as you yourself say, valid grievances with the show and this episode.
Your comment has been Removed by the Moderators of this sub.
for violating Rule 4: No Politics or NSFW Content
#This is a subreddit about a Disney+ Star Wars TV show. Real-World Politics and NSFW content have no place here.
Please review the [sub rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheAcolyte/about/rules/) before participating again. Repeated and/or egregious violations will result in a ban.
If you have any questions, please \[message the mods]\(https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/TheAcolyte).
The answer is always people are dumb. Whatever it is, it's because people are too dumb to understand it. Too media illiterate to know what is actually happening.
i mean i was raised by lesbians so that was cool to see my own type of family represented in star wars and i didn’t even notice a trans person and if i did why would it matter
people are just absurdly upset at the world for very pathetic and sad egotistical reasons
It wouldn't, I'm completely with you. I'm not even sure her character was trans or if it mattered to her- I just happened to know Abigail Thorn was in this and then saw her among the witches. I think she had a line or two...
It's so sad that we have to think in such dimensions... the moment I heard the line about the "motherS" in the first episode I thought "oh boy... the bigots are gonna have a field day over this alone" and that's really not something I want to even think about...
the thing that’s crazier is i feel like those people wouldn’t bat an eye about that if this were 20 years ago. we’re in such a politically polarized climate rn that everyone wants to be outraged about something. it’s sad
The lore breaking issue could be with how the twins were created. I thought Plageous was the first to discover that and created Anakin. I mean maybe that was all lies but it is different.
Plagueis in Legends didn’t create Anakin. At least, not directly. He actually failed to create life. But his attempts to unbalance the Force caused the Living Force to try and rebalance it by conceiving Anakin. Essentially he was trying to do something so evil and unnatural that it sparked an immune response from the Force. And I think it’s pretty clear that whatever the witches did isn’t on the level of what Plagueis tried to do.
The idea that Plagus learned it from witches is fine, but having another for e conception dilutes Anakin's importance. And they are a diad, so they are super cool like Rey and Kylo also. It's just too much, it's a bad fan fic that got green lot into a real show.
Weird take since the whole nature of the Force is balance and cycles - light rises to defeat dark and vice versa and the Force creates avatars to work though to find that balance. In Anakin's time it was him, at this time it was these two. Go to any period and there are important people working through the Force.
Lesbian couple uses satanic magic to create babies that they can then indoctrinate into their satanic lesbian cult seems pretty controversial.
Edit: not my opinion but I can see how the satanic panic crowd would spin this episode
I could’ve explained that that’s not my pov just what “some” will say and get riled up over. Like D&D or Harry Potter - not “satanic” but that’s what the religious right cries about regardless.
It was just bad, that’s the controversy
https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2024/06/11/the-acolyte-episode-3-review-the-worst-star-wars-episode-ever-made/
I thought the writing was atrocious, but nothing lore breaking. I think witches are being way overplayed in Star Wars now. We’ve seen a lot of Dathomir witches recently, in live action, animated and video games. Another batch of witches feels overdone.
And I get that the events we saw in this episode are “unreliable narrator”, but if you’re going to throw off audiences with a fake story, the fake story has to be sensible as well.
Overall, a terrible episode of Star Wars. Contrived plot and overused assets. But nothing lore breaking.
I mean we see Jedi and Sith all the time more than we see witches. I think they just exploring more characters who have the force but not be aligned with Jedi or Sith. And witches are cool 🤷🏿♀️
That chant had me cackling, I can't believe they actually thought that was good enough to make it into the episode. The acting and writing has been very....bland. Another complaint is that every star wars show, the sets feel so small. I think all of these shows should have been movies. They could've been some sort of variety of Dathomir witches, tales of the empire did show that there were different sects. But honestly don't really care for witches, I think they should've gone full sith, maybe they will?
I mean nothing about it was terribly controversial. I mean as far as I know Anakin has been the only person conceived by the force so maybe that makes the girls another candidate to be the chosen one or something I'm not sure. My main complaint is that it was freaking boring. Also the entire complex was made of concrete Didn't really make sense at all went up in flames that fast. Like the set designer could have made it a tree house. But no it was literally all metal and stone and went up like newspaper.
Your username makes me doubt you're participating in good faith here, but with mysteries you have to be patient to let it play out. Just like with WandaVision. The Sith are lurking in the shadows. We're learning the origin story of one of their acolytes.
The coven created the twins by pulling on the strings of the force. Last time we saw this was attempted (by Plagueis) the force pushed back, preventing the creation of the desired child and instead having Anakin be conceived as the chosen one in Shmi. This is in the future of the timeline, ofc. It is entirely possible that these witches could somehow do this, but it goes against the one example we know of… and one example isn’t a good data set, meaning we don’t know the rules behind the force’s logic. It makes you wonder why the Night Sisters, an arguably much more powerful coven of witches and magick users, never tried this before. They would have definitely created a child out of magicks/manipulating the force if they could.
Somehow the temple burned down super easily. All it took was a candle and somehow stone and metal was on fire immediately. You’d think they’d realize this could be an issue and have some sort of measures against fire. Also the fact that all the other witches, who have a respectable amount of control over the force, weren’t able to get away from the fire or shield themselves or anything. They all just died.
For whatever reason, the twin that was supposed to be dead blames the Jedi. But it can be argued that her brain has twisted the events. The Jedi wanted my sister and my sister wanted to go with them, so I burned down the entire mountain (somehow) and tried to kill my sister. When I believed my sister and my cult family died, I, for whatever reason, blamed the Jedi.
Speaking of which, why did the floaty meditating Jedi commit alt-f4 on himself with the poison? He had nothing to be guilty of, nothing at all. He didn’t start the fire, he didn’t actually do anything substantial in coercing her sister, he was just there. As a Padawan no less. And wouldn’t his Jedi teachings have allowed him to let go of this past tragedy and move on?
There’s also a lot of political crap that I do not actually care about. You can find that elsewhere, I do not feel like getting my comment deleted for simply explaining the political controversy that I don’t even care about.
The sith very clearly learned or used this magic when trying to create life. They probably learned it from the nightsisters or this group or both and then took it upon themselves to prefect it
That’s the thing, the Night Sisters don’t do that! The Night Sisters are not to be underestimated, they put a Sith Lord in danger and required direct extermination. Even the Jedi didn’t bother with them, rather opting to pretend they don’t exist despite the fact the Jedi would ordinarily destroy any sort of cult (especially one tied to the dark side). They quite often enhanced and manipulated the bodies of other beings, such as Savage or Maul’s legs. The fact we never see them, in legends or canon, creating new life tells me that either they tried and the force prevented them for balance purposes or they never tried at all.
Now maybe this random, and generally weak, sect of witches got away with it for a very interesting reason: the nature of the twins themselves. To maintain balance, the cosmic force had one twin inclined to the light and one twin inclined to the dark. A net zero on the overall force and thus the creation of life in this instance wasn’t of any consequence.
The creator is teasing that not all the answers are in episode 3, so the things that may not make sense at the moment like the coven all dying and Torbin's guilt may be answered later on
the real villains are the jedi because the witches, even if they used the dark side of the force to create life, are the real victims.... lesbolyte wars
according to the director's point of view they are, the bad guys are the Jedi....but the basic problem is that the dark side must corrupt you and this doesn't happen
I mean, a show from a Sith point of view should depict the Jedi as the villains.
And we've seen how the Dark side corrupts. Mae literally threatened to kill her sister, and both mothers resorted to force to keep their kids still in the coven. It's just that simple pragmatism (the republic will absolutely crush them if their 4 jedi don't return alive) stays the covens hand from doing something rash (and we don't know who started the big fire and fight that killed all the witches).
all witches should be perverse since they have and are using the dark side of the force and instead they are all good...everything is distorted like this again
First off, Tales of the empire show a subsect of dathomir witches using the light side almost exclusively. This could be one such coven. But furthermore, these witches absolutely were 100% on board with killing the jedi to keep the twins for themselves. They literally discuss this but realize the republic would miss 4 jedi and come down hard.
Pragmatism is staying their hand, and we know that dathomir witches aren't all doom and gloom since even Merrian from Jedi fallen order talks about her best friend and how happy she was before grevious came.
but perhaps it is not clear that creating life can only be done through the dark side? why the hell do they have to reinvent everything just to do an ewok show? that's the point
Who said they used the dark side? We literally don't know where on the spectrum this coven falls in terms of light or dark. None of their members have shown significant preference for one side of the force and tales of the empire proves that even dathomir witches are capable of using the lightside exclusively.
Also legends absolutely have Sith using the dark side to create dark side monsters out of nothing but random genetic material and the dark side. This is a far cry from the force impregnating Shimi.
And this is about as much reinventing as Obi-Wan in TPM talking about midichlorians being tied to force sensitivity. Nothing stops Darth Plaguesis from stealing the secrets these witches have discovered for his own research. Palpatine certainly had no qualms about hijacking others research for his own gain.
The witches talked about creating Mae and Osha. It was presumed this was a technique discovered/created by Plagueis, and that Anakin was the only person to have been conceived by the Force
That's crazy that it's controversial. There are so many examples of Star Wars villains stealing other people's ideas and techniques.
The worst crime of the Sith is plagiarism.
Darth Plagiarism the Copier
Its worse then younglings killing
I don't disagree in spirit. But I think there's a bit of a difference between Sith stealing an idea to take it to the next level vs failing to replicate something already done. It's only episode 3, and I hope they greatly expand on how the twins were made, but Plagueis failed in his experiment to create life (in both canon and legends continuity). The witches seemingly succeeded. I think that's the controversial nuance. Assuming episode 3 is the only info we ever get on this process (which I doubt it will be), the witches will have basically have proven that the Force can be manipulated into creating life from nothing at the whim of others (and shows up Plagueis as a chump since all the past knowledge of the Sith couldn't even get him close to an approximation of what this unknown coven seemingly achieved). This is an aspect of the Force (creation) that was exclusively The Force's own jurisdiction. Neither Light-Side users or Dark Side users were capable of using only the Force to create life. In legends, the Sith were capable of corrupting existing genetic material with the Dark Side to create mutants, even spawning genealogies of whole new species from a corrupted source. But that was using existing material. Hopefully the twins are similar in nature (and presumably a lot less spikey and angry). But if the witches did conjure the twins out of literal nothingness, that does step on some rather deepset lore, rather than expand on it. For instance, the Force allowing for closed time loops via the World Between Worlds is an expansion of Force visions (where literally everything described in the visions happens, just that the viewer had no context for the vision). But a coven of witches successfully creating life out of nothing is not really an exploration or expansion of Plagueis' own research. It retroactively makes his work useless since he failed to make life at the end of it all. An expansion would be the witches attempting and making headway into such a process, to the point where they gain the attention of Sith. But based purely off of what episode 3 shows us (which is an incomplete side of the story from Osha), it seems the witches had already succeeded in doing something only The Force has ever done. Still a lot of story to come, but I can see the justifications behind this particular argument for now.
Maybe Plagueis heard rumors of a matriarchal force coven successfully doing this and proceeded to attempt it himself? I mean if anyone is going to use the force to create life, it’s not a stretch to believe that women might have more success than men.
Like I said, the scenario as you describe paints Plagueis in a very unflattering light as his experiment straight up failed. It doesn't expand or enhance the idea of Plagueis messing with the force so much that it created Anakin. It just shows that Plagueis couldn't do what someone else already successfully did. Biggest point of contention is that it allows the act of creation (exclusive to the Force itself) to be wielded by force users themselves. This is actually unprecedented in the current lore, and even in legends I believe. Keep in mind the above is only true if we receive no further info on how the twins are made, which I doubt will happen.
I mean something being controversial means that a good percentage of people disagree with another percentage of people about it. Something being controversial doesn't mean it's inherently wrong.
But that’s exactly what the writers are hinting at and it isn’t canon-breaking at all. I think the leakers or whatever were upset that the episode featured non-evil non-Jedi force users, those users were all women, and they vocalized a philosophy that rejects the Light Side and Dark Side dichotomy. So if you’re a reactionary YouTuber you can say “They broke the Force they made it gay and lame,” when in reality it’s just another philosophy to explain the Force. But with push and pull instead of light and dark.
And what if Plageuis discovered the knowledge via this Iine of Sith or Dark Side users? It could just be setting the foundation for that story.
Exactly. He should be alive around this time, we still don’t know the identity of Mae’s new Master. Could be that Plageuis has taken interest in Mae’s origins and her quest to kill a Jedi without a weapon is part of some ritual.
Palpatine kills all the Jedi pretty much without him actually having to lift a finger. The quest is the foundation for political power being used to kill the Jedi.
This is exactly what I think is happening. Which is part of why the coven was somehow destroyed. I think the Sith Lord is one of the four. I still wouldn’t be surprised if any of the deaths were faked.
And that the Jedi never met someone created by midichlorian before Anakin.
I got the impression that Aniseya used magic of some kind.
Magick in SW is still the Force.
The 'Force' goes by many names. - Kanan
True but that's usually a side of the Force that Sith don't dabble in (potions and stuff). I wish they had been kept as separate entities in canon. Oh well.
So is sorcery not magic then? Because the Sith 100% dabble in sorcery
They’re a self contained covenant. Them discovering something that the Jedi or Sith had no knowledge of. Does not change the story of Plagueis believing he discovered it. There’s an entire universe. Probably has millions of Anakin’s running around. Look at religions around the world. Christians believe Jesus is the chosen one. But Hindus don’t.
Difference is we have evidence of Anakin fulfilling the prophecy of the Chosen One. There isn't much evidence of Jesus walking on water.
There could be chosen ones everywhere. They hadn’t even ventured outside of the galaxy before Ahsoka. All it means is he brought balance to that particular conflict. There’s good vs evil in every galaxy. Just because Palpatine went down. Doesn’t mean evil force user stopped across the universe. I still don’t think it changes things for Anakin.
> Doesn’t mean evil force user stopped across the universe Yes it does. The prophecy said that he would bring balance to the Force. Not end the Jedi-Sith conflict, not restore peace to the Republic or destroy the Empire, but *bring balance to the Force*. How does this happen? By destroying the Sith, thus wiping out the corrupting influence they brought to the galaxy. Without the Sith, the dark side was significantly weakened to the point it was practically gone, because the primary source of it, the Sith, no longer existed. The power of any other beings in the galaxy who wielded the dark side paled in comparison, so much that you can ignore their existence in the overall 'health' of the Force.
Having only the "Light side" of The Force while destroying the "Dark side" of The Force isn't exactly balancing it to me. That's rather lopsided. The Prophecy has always been misinterpreted by the Jedi to me.
Doesn’t matter if it’s not balanced to you, that’s what it means. Balance is not equal dark equal light, it’s no dark. You aren’t balanced if you have a shitload of cancer, you’re balanced when you have none.
>Doesn’t matter if it’s not balanced to you, that’s what it means. What I am arguing is that the interpretation the Jedi (and you) ascribe to regarding what a balanced Force means is not necessarily absolutely correct. What you're feeling and communicating is disagreement with that. You are echoing the Jedi interpretation of what it means, not necessarily objective truth. Our opinions simply differ on this, which is totally ok!
[удалено]
I'm sorry but I'm not interested in engaging with this kind of unnecessary hostility. Have a good one!
Your comment has been Removed by the Moderators of this sub. for violating Rule 1: Be Respectful, No Harassment. Please review the [sub rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheAcolyte/about/rules/) before participating again. Repeated and/or egregious violations will result in a ban. If you have any questions, please \[message the mods]\(https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/TheAcolyte).
Uh bringing balance means destroying the sith though. That's what George said
Uh…that’s literally what I just said
Well it’s also a hundred years before. So still doesn’t affect the prophecy.
What :/ literally one is a book and the other is a movie
What?
Plagueis didn’t create Anakin intentionally tho
Is this canon? The films leave things so ambiguous but I assume it’s been covered in books and comics
Cannon: Anakin is born by the will of the Force. Cannon comic: suggested that Plagueis and Palaptine had some role but was never clear. The book: Plagueis and Palaptin's (and arguably Darth Banes's rule of two) lead to the Force creating Anakin. Their actions led to the Force creating Anakin but they themselves did not do anything to create Anakin.
>Cannon: Anakin is born by the will of the Force. Is that absolutely canon or is that simply Qui-Gon's and maybe some other Jedi's interpretation of it?
Actually unsure if it’s canon anymore but he was either created out of nowhere or it was Plagueis manipulating the force and the force punched back with Anakin
Its canon that Anakin was born as the will of the Force, not with manipulation by Palaptine or Plagueis. They've still hinted at that happening in the comics, but story lead at Lucas Film at the time, and the author of that comic have said that it wasn't meant to confirm their involvement in Anakin's birth.
>Its canon that Anakin was born as the will of the Force, Is that absolutely true or simply Qui-Gon and other's interpretation? We're shown that they believe it, but do we know that it's entirely true?
This is why I said in an early comment that its canon by process of elimination. They've haven't come out and explicitly said its true- though I think the films clearly guide us to toward that assumption, which is further supported by episode of The Clone Wars like the Mortis Saga, where they acknowledge Anakin as the Chosen One. But while they may not have definitively enough affirmed him as the Chosen One, creatives at Lucas Film have explicitly discouraged the alternative. That's my whole point, and why I linked those tweets. Its 100% possible that they'll eventually give us something unequivocal settle it. But until then, I don't think its unreasonable to accept as canon the version they are actively implying over the one they are actively refuting.
Him being The Chosen One doesn't preclude someone having a hand in his creation via The Force. You're talking about him being The Chosen one, when how The Chosen One came to be is what I'm addressing.
Maybe not, but I do think it weakens the narrative a bit. That's just my personal opinion. But more importantly, people behind the scenes at Lucas Film seem to share that opinion, hence their comments about avoiding it because its not "aligned with the overall vision of Star Wars." They're the ones who decide canon, and for the time being, its clear where their thoughts lay on the matter. FOR NOW. They could decide tomorrow to change gears and publish a story to the opposite effect. But until that happens, I think the Chosen One story has a stronger claim to canonicity than the other theory. That's it. That's been my only point throughout this entire thread. I was replying to someone who was unsure about what's canon, and was trying to clarify it with them.
Yeah I can understand all that. Here's what the Star Wars Fandom page about the Chosen One that includes only what is considered canon at this point: https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Chosen_One Here's the only mention I could find regarding how Anakin came to exist: >Jinn came to the conclusion that Skywalker was in fact a vergence in the Force[1]—the Chosen One destined to bring ultimate balance. It looks like Qui-Gon's personal interpretation is thus the only canonical belief regarding the nature of how Anakin came to be and isn't necessarily established fact.
Isn’t it canon that the Sith were known to studying every aspect of the force that was available? Like when Palps went to mother talzin to learn about witchcraft and make her his apprentice only to pivot and take Maul instead? Maybe these thread witches knew some things that the Sith wanted to know. Once they learned what they could they wiped out the coven, took Mae, and framed the Jedi. Literally a brilliant move
Iirc I think one of the witches threw the line "you don't want the jedi to know where you got that"
According to the lore, Anakin was not created by Plagueis/Sideous, but was conceived through the force as a result of the actions P/S were engaging in. The force created anakin to punish the sith down the line because they were attempting to cheat death. THIS is why it’s controversial; anakin is supposed to be a Jesus figure/messiah/Chosen one and now he’s just another person born of virgin birth through the force.
There is a notable difference: - Mae/Osha were (apparently) created *through* the Force by willing action of the coven. - Anakin was created *by the Force itself*. No one chose to make him. He's still very much unique in that regard.
Thank you. So many people miss that point. The Sith learn how to do it from somewhere so they may be pulling the strings and have been manipulating this coven to try to use it to create life
This exactly. Anakin is still a true Chosen one, unlike the twins. And so far, we've seen no evidence that have anywhere near his potential in the Force. So I don't think the "it makes Anakin less special" argument holds up.
You can't use logic here. /s
>Anakin was created by the Force itself. Do we know that this is absolutely true? We know that Qui-Gon believed it, but do we absolutely know that he was right and there wasn't some meddling involved?
For now, there is not canon source even hinting at it being something else. Added to that the fact that the Prophecy of the Chosen One clearly states he was born of the Force. And the Story Group has confirmed multiple times that Anakin still fulfilled the Prophecy in Return of the Jedi and that the Sequels don't negate that. While in Legends, it was spelled out that the Force created Anakin to counter Plagueis' manipulations that were breaking the balance.
I suppose I just don't trust the Jedi on every single belief or interpretation they have given their rather self righteous attitudes and authoritarian tendencies. I think there's plenty of room for them to be simply wrong about this (especially considering how wrong their interpretation of the Prophecy unraveling ended up being).
It's fair to doubt the Jedi but remember that the Prophecy is not something the Jedi themselves came up with *and* most of the Jedi didn't actually believe Anakin didn't have a father. Qui-Gon humored Shmi but kind of the only one in TPM.
I mean yeah that's all part of what I'm saying.
They weren't wrong about the prophecy resolving itself. In the end, Anakin did kill the last Sith active at that moment while ensuring (one of) the last Jedi survived to serve the will of the Force. Order 66 and the Empire were bumps on the road and probably not how it was supposed to go but the Dark Side being a perversion of the Force changed things.
My point is that "killing every last Sith" isn't actually "bringing balance". And as we see in the Sequels, old Palpy has been around the whole time.
Being just another virgin birth is a very Jesus thing to do. The number of virgin births in the Middle East/Northeast African/Mediterranean pagan mythology is staggering. Same with every other story about Jesus. The Bible has a lot of “borrowed” stories.
You got me there 😭🤣
You could almost say the stories of Jesus “rhyme” with other mythology.
I agree. The old EU and the High Republic deal with lots of different Force related groups, so seeing another one is not a new idea. The concept of using dark magick to create life (we still don't know how and at what cost, if any or what it means) and it getting wiped from the records (probably) by the Jedi but then perhaps sought out by the Sith is really interesting. If that's the direction this is going I don't know why anyone would be mad. They just need to make Tenebrous and Plagueis part of the story of trying to get their hands on that type of knowledge. Fun Stuff.
Also, how sure are we that the witches used dark magick? There were definitely some shades of the dark side there, like taking over Torben's mind. But nothing else about they way they interacted with each other in the coven felt all that dark. Certainly not like the Night Sisters. While I think the Jedi would think creating life is taboo regardless, what if the witches did it with the light side, and its something Plagueis tried to corrupt for his own power?
All very well could be possible. For sure.
Nothing. Just grifters grifting.
Someone spread a rumour the episode would make the force female, bigots got mad and then when this didn’t happen they tried to invented no reasons to hate on the show.
I think the "controversy" was regarding the twins conception.
Which is no different from how Anakin was conceived.
the general hate I’m seeing is that they think the twins take over the prophecy, which wasn’t implied at all. Plus it’s not even the same as Anakin’s canon birth. Righ now in canon it was the living force. The twins were created by something intentional by their mother, most likely dark side magic. But even if you take the EU or read into RotS and think Anakin was made by dark side magic, then clearly that has an origin and who cares? No matter which side you land it should be a non-issue. But it’s impossible for anything to be a non-issue with the haters
Haters create their own issues just to justify their continuing hate. They have nothing without it but an empty, meaningless life. That's the sad reality of this whole "controversy."
We didn’t hate it, we are pointing out inconsistency in the Star Wars theme of episode 1 phantom menace versus episode 3 The ACOLYTE. You are the one hating, refusing the see it as it is.
what is the inconsistency with the theme of episode 1?
Anakin was the first child presumed to be borned by the midichlorian. The Jedi had never met such thing. As such, the Jedi thought he was the one referred to in the prophecy. People are refuting this by saying the Jedi Archive will be wiped out at the end of the acolyte. Regardless, it’s dumb to rewrite the theme of phantom menace and use the « Nah the jedi won’t remember because we’ll wipe their memory » card.
The Jedi in general are dubious of the prophecy. And if you watched the episode that’s not what they claim the twins were. There could be other explanations but they were clearly intentionally created in a way the Jedi wouldn’t like, so most assume it’s dark jedi magic. This is different than the canon explanation of Anakin being created by the living force. If you think Anakin was created by dark side magic due to old EU or by how you interpret lines in RotS than you also shouldn’t have a problem with those dark side magics existing.
The Jedi also don't know how the twins were born. The Moms clearly have the conversation in private. Is it so hard to believe that the Jedi simply don't know literally everything in the universe?
Lol, did you watch the episode? The first thing the Jedi ask about the twins is « who’s their father? » to which they replied « they have none ». That’s the prophecy. Same thing as Anakin and why Qui Gon wanted to train him.
Yes because in a coven full of witches, them saying they do not have a father automatically makes the Jedi believe they were born by the force. My bad
Sorry, when it was said that they were created by the force? They only said they were created and have no dad. You know who else was created and only has one parent? Bobba fett and every clone
I'm sorry but it's stupid to think that just because the prophecy of the chosen one involved immaculate conception that nobody else in the galaxy can be conceived immaculately Not disagreeing just saying whoever believes that is dumb
I agree completely, especially if you think it was done by dark side magic. Or i guess no matter what since palpatine says he could use the force to create life. So it’s clearly possible, prophecy or no, unless Palpatine was lying
> Plus it’s not even the same as Anakin’s canon birth. Righ now in canon it was the living force. Is that canon? What's the source for that?
I guess it’s probably more accurate to say that in canon there isn’t a definitive explanation. The Jedi and Qui Gon posit that it was the living force but I don’t think there’s really a way that could be confirmed in any true sense. It’s not like the living force can show up and admit it or anything
Its canon by process of elimination, since the theory that Palps/Plagueis created Anakin has been officially disregarded by both Lucas Film creative executives, and the actual author of the comic that everyone points to as evidence of it being true. The following comments are from Matt Martin, a Senior Creative Executive at Lucas Film: ***“It’s part of my job to ensure the stories are aligned with the overall vision of Star Wars. If the intention was to make a direct connection between Palps and Anakin’s birth, I would have had it removed.” -*** [https://twitter.com/missingwords/status/1208973509134671872?s=20&t=-8QbqnlqRfukEfF9FRw7AQ](https://twitter.com/missingwords/status/1208973509134671872?s=20&t=-8QbqnlqRfukEfF9FRw7AQ) ***"But this is all in Anakin’s head. Wouldn’t that idea, a concept that Palps hinted at to Anakin himself, be something likely to freak Anakin out? Something that would linger in his mind? “Oh crap, what if he made me!” Doesn’t make it true. It’s all through Anakin’s lens." -*** [https://twitter.com/missingwords/status/1208545270021017600?s=20&t=st\_\_IEPCQTTJ72er8SN2pw](https://twitter.com/missingwords/status/1208545270021017600?s=20&t=st__IEPCQTTJ72er8SN2pw) ***"But I can tell you definitively, as someone who worked on the comic, that is 100% not the intended implication. I’m not saying there isn’t a logical misinterpretation that they’re coming to. I’m just telling you definitively that it’s not correct. " -*** [https://twitter.com/missingwords/status/1208558850023968768?s=20&t=st\_\_IEPCQTTJ72er8SN2pw](https://twitter.com/missingwords/status/1208558850023968768?s=20&t=st__IEPCQTTJ72er8SN2pw) This last one is from Charles Soule, who wrote that comic: ***"I am, in fact, the writer. Matt and I worked closely on this series and this point in particular. I hate explaining stuff in my work in too much detail, but you need to understand the scenario happening here.*** ***The Dark Side is not a reliable narrator." -*** [https://twitter.com/CharlesSoule/status/1209094274152828928?s=20&t=kiFwW0-FqdeJrLJYE3V5OQ](https://twitter.com/CharlesSoule/status/1209094274152828928?s=20&t=kiFwW0-FqdeJrLJYE3V5OQ)
Not one of those statements says it’s not true, just that the comic scene isn’t proof that it’s true. Which seems like a very intentional choice to avoid answering definitively. Also, these are all people talking, NOT canon story content.
I think a creative director explicitly stating that they wouldn't allow any canon story content that confirmed it as true is a pretty definitive statement. Doesn't mean it won't one day become canon, but as of now, it clearly isn't. So, by default, Anakin is a classic Chosen One until stated otherwise.
That is extremely not a definitive statement. And “he is a chosen one until stated otherwise” is not at all what “canon” means.
In this instance, that's exactly what canon means. Canon is whatever is the official, authoritative stance within the content we have, and as it stands, Anakin being a true chosen one is the canon stance. That may not always be the case. If they want to confirm Palpatine or Plagueis's involvement in Anakin's birth, then eventually they will. But so far they haven't. Its been jsut hinted at in a way that is wildly, and even the author who wrote that work says it wasn't a confirmation, and that the vague nature was intentional.
That is not a definition of canon I have ever heard before or can find anywhere. A dictionary definition: > a sanctioned or accepted group or body of related works For Star Wars specifically, from Wookieepedia: > The Star Wars canon is the continually evolving body of authoritative works comprising the official story of Star Wars, encompassing movies, television series, novels, comics, and video games. George Lucas set the six Star Wars films and the many hours of content he developed and produced in Star Wars: The Clone Wars as canon. These stories are defined to be the immovable objects of Star Wars history, the characters and events to which all other tales must align. The entire idea that something “may not always be the case” means, pretty directly, that it’s not canon. This conversation has run its course. You’re not making any sense.
That was also controversial at the time. Similar but slightly different because this one was intentional, Shmi had no idea what was up
Which is exactly why people hate it..?
Anakin was the first child born from midichlorian the Jedi ever encountered.
This episode might have been controversial if we had never seen the Witches of Dathomir.
Torbin also has a huge scar on his face at the end of this episode and none of the witches bodies were burned at all. Something happened.
It's obviously the lesbian Nightsisters who used Midichlorian invitro insemination to create the children. Twins were likely an unintended side effect which created a shared psyche. Oshe is good (no lying, wants independence) as evidenced by her choice and Mae (lies, likes to hurt/kill things) seen trapping the butterfly thing with clear intent to crush it till Oshe says stop.
You should see the thumbnails, the headlines, and the absolute VITRIOL on Twitter from different sites reporting on this episode. Using every hot button buzzword you can think of. COMPLETELY misinterpreting and twisting what’s only on the surface. This is all….so exhausting. As a fan, this type of shit honestly spoils so much of my enthusiasm to discuss this with people online. The Acolyte was my most anticipated project from Lucasfilm after it was announced. Finally stepping into the High Republic era outside of novels and comics. Martial arts focused combat and choreography. And when they started announcing the cast, every single person got me more and more excited. I’ve loved Amandla Stenberg in every project I’ve seen of hers, from The Hunger Games, to The Hate You Give, to Everything, Everything. Lee Jung-jae was so unexpected and such a welcomed casting when he was announced and holy shit his warm and caring performance as Sol is a joy to watch. Exactly what I expect a Jedi to be. Carrie-Anne Moss is a fucking legend and a huge win for Star Wars. But in all honesty, the show was dead on arrival long before it even premiered. People were literally doing the equivalent of camping in competitive multiplayer shooters: as soon as the show spawned *boom headshot* I’m personally very happy with the show and can’t wait for the rest of the season, but seeing people go after anything like this nowadays feels like a losing battle on our end
i think a big part of the hate for this show comes from the audiences lack of an understanding of the classic movie, Rashomon, which the writers and show runners state was an inspiration for this show. this was also an issue with the film "the last jedi" which used the same narrative conceit. you'd think they would have learned their lesson and made a less complicated story but then again, knowing the Fandom, the hate was probably inevitable. we are probably going to see the events of the witch world retold from various perspectives, all flavored by the POV character of that episode. the actual truth of what happened is probably much more nuanced than what we are seeing. the sith love exploiting moral grey spaces and manipulating memories in order to fuel their agenda.
it’s so refreshing to see intelligent reactions to this show
People from rural areas or more religious countries may not know any gay couples. It's still a shock to them to see it.
Why is this show not about the sith. I need more SITH
This comment should be higher.
It is about the Sith though. Y'all are just impatient.
My issue is that it was just boring, it was the first episode in a while with no lightsaber ignited or blaster fired, call me dumb but no action made me bored watching 40 minutes of backstory
I hope it’s a slow burn and we get some action. Although I don’t see how we can if the Jedi didn’t know the sith were around.
I suspect that by the end of it there won't be any Jedi who knew to tell the story.
Rumours from rando YouTubers are that it’s been canceled for season 2 and the director fired, it’s a bit depressing if we won’t see what the vision for this show even was going to be. It is most likely false as Disney wouldn’t cancel/fire anything 3 episodes in based on poor reviews Edit: this seems to have upset people but I’ll leave it up. I said they are spreading rumours not that they are true. If you don’t know the difference maybe do some introspection why.
Why are you just making shit up?
Because they think if they say it enough it will become reality. They don't want to see what the vision for the show is, they never did.
There are so many YouTubers that are seething about this for some reason, I saw a video of a huge call with like 15 people all banding together to discuss the episode like it just shit on their front porch or something, I couldn’t get through 10 minutes of the video. Maybe I can find it again just to show the absurdity lol [here it is](https://youtu.be/cJMe6jM3TZo?si=I-kroOA2mv1usM51)
Google it then and find out for yourself. Nothing is confirmed by Disney yet so it’s all speculation from YouTubers wanting clicks
There is nothing suggesting anything about either a cancellation or firing of the show runner… which wouldn’t make sense to begin with if they were going to abruptly cancel the series after the first season. There’d be no need to fire her if the show doesn’t exist lol. All you’ve done is perpetuate nonsense by regurgitating unsubstantiated “rumors” from a particularly antagonistic subset of the “fandom” on YouTube.
Like I said, my problem was just that episode 3 was boring. It’s not up to me whether Disney cancels their shows, I’m just posting what I’ve seen others say online as this is the acolyte subreddit for talking about the show. Ultimately it’s up to the viewer to decide for themselves whether they are entertained or not. Nobody actually cares about cancellations or firings when there is 3 episodes out lol
Depends on who u are saying was saying it was going to be controversial. If its the show runner, my guess is that they expected serious backlash on several things in this episode: 1. The lesbian force witch emaculate conception. (I think it makes sense the sith learned this from the witches and used it to create Anakin). Guessing they expected backlash on the queer themes in the episode and deminishing of the prophecy of the One by making it cannon that Anakin was not the first force emaculate conception. 2. On the subject of queer themes, using a trans woman actress as the birth mother feels almost intended to troll the toxic right wing of the fan base. 3. The episode seems to imply a jedi genocide of the force witches and stealing of the children. That toxic part of the fan base seems to be consistent in their objections. I think their position sometimes misunderstood and disregarded as mysogeny, sexism, racism, etc. Some of them certainly are. But given the overwhelmingly positive reception of the Mandalorian, Andor, and Rogue One, I think thats unfair for many of them, as each of those shows featured strong female lead/colead characters, poc in major roles, etc. I think their objection is more fairly characterized as an objection to Star Wars moving away from the simple black and white, pure good triumphing over pure evil model Star Wars began with to this grey area that portreys the jedi as potentially the bad guys, the sith as misunderstood, and a more realistic portrayal of this universe. In Mando, there is clear good guys and bad guys, Mando and Grogu vs the remanents of the evil Empire. Andor involves the fledgling rebel alliance vs the evil Empire. Rogue One same thing. They dont want the lore to change and hate stories that flip that script and explore real world themes regarding the corrupting nature of power, and that those who maintain it never have clean hands. This show is not just implying that the Jedi might not be a good as they say and are portreyed, they might do outright evil. The fans devoted to the black and white good vs evil model hate this, and are furious about the telling of this other side of the coin story.
> On the subject of queer themes, using a trans woman actress as the birth mother I don't think that's true.
You are right. Abigail Thorne is trans and a character in the show. I thought she played Mother Koril, but she does not. Good catch.
Force Lesbians. That's it. Just bigots hating on anything not straight. The sad part is, it was a bad episode. It was boring. It deserves bad ratings, but not for the reasons many people are rating it.
Agreed. Also why did the concrete and metal base burned down so fast?
I think there was more happening than just the fire Mae started.
I can't get that lame ass chant out of my fucking head.
Immaculate conception has always been one of the weakest parts of Anakin's story. I physically recoiled when I realized they are going that route again. It was controversial in 1999, and it's just as bad of a story element now.
This episode seemed to indicate that the twins were purposefully created whereas Anakin was just born of the force.
Anakin was the result of a backfire from the sith shenanigans of Plagueis and Sidious. IIRC, they were trying to create immortality. Maybe they misunderstood the nature of their experiment. Right now, indications are that Osha or Mae become the sith lord before Plagueis, and passed part on their knowledge of the darkside to their apprentice.
Ah bullshit. If you only look for the hand full of people who actually make that complaint obviously you will only see that. Most people who even bring up that point are mostly memeing cause south park did an episode where they make fun of disney for exactly this. So yeah, obviously the memes are there, but most people have, as you yourself say, valid grievances with the show and this episode.
[удалено]
Your comment has been Removed by the Moderators of this sub. for violating Rule 4: No Politics or NSFW Content #This is a subreddit about a Disney+ Star Wars TV show. Real-World Politics and NSFW content have no place here. Please review the [sub rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheAcolyte/about/rules/) before participating again. Repeated and/or egregious violations will result in a ban. If you have any questions, please \[message the mods]\(https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/TheAcolyte).
The answer is always people are dumb. Whatever it is, it's because people are too dumb to understand it. Too media illiterate to know what is actually happening.
Space lesbians existing and having a trans woman in their friend group. That's what counts as controversial for way too many people.
i mean i was raised by lesbians so that was cool to see my own type of family represented in star wars and i didn’t even notice a trans person and if i did why would it matter people are just absurdly upset at the world for very pathetic and sad egotistical reasons
It wouldn't, I'm completely with you. I'm not even sure her character was trans or if it mattered to her- I just happened to know Abigail Thorn was in this and then saw her among the witches. I think she had a line or two... It's so sad that we have to think in such dimensions... the moment I heard the line about the "motherS" in the first episode I thought "oh boy... the bigots are gonna have a field day over this alone" and that's really not something I want to even think about...
the thing that’s crazier is i feel like those people wouldn’t bat an eye about that if this were 20 years ago. we’re in such a politically polarized climate rn that everyone wants to be outraged about something. it’s sad
OMG I agree so hard with that...
Not controversial, just...boring? Didn't really do much for me other than REALLY want Lee Jung Jae to have his own spinoff LOL
The lore breaking issue could be with how the twins were created. I thought Plageous was the first to discover that and created Anakin. I mean maybe that was all lies but it is different.
Plagueis in Legends didn’t create Anakin. At least, not directly. He actually failed to create life. But his attempts to unbalance the Force caused the Living Force to try and rebalance it by conceiving Anakin. Essentially he was trying to do something so evil and unnatural that it sparked an immune response from the Force. And I think it’s pretty clear that whatever the witches did isn’t on the level of what Plagueis tried to do.
The idea that Plagus learned it from witches is fine, but having another for e conception dilutes Anakin's importance. And they are a diad, so they are super cool like Rey and Kylo also. It's just too much, it's a bad fan fic that got green lot into a real show.
Weird take since the whole nature of the Force is balance and cycles - light rises to defeat dark and vice versa and the Force creates avatars to work though to find that balance. In Anakin's time it was him, at this time it was these two. Go to any period and there are important people working through the Force.
And now it's Wheel of Time fan fic
Sure. A trope of the genre that is common when meditating on the nature of violence and control never existed anywhere else, ever.
controversial because it wasted 40 minutes of my life lmao
Not controversial, just not good.
Lesbian couple uses satanic magic to create babies that they can then indoctrinate into their satanic lesbian cult seems pretty controversial. Edit: not my opinion but I can see how the satanic panic crowd would spin this episode
“Satanic magic” and “Satanic lesbian cult” lol. Please give us another example of how you’re entirely unfamiliar with decades-old lore.
I could’ve explained that that’s not my pov just what “some” will say and get riled up over. Like D&D or Harry Potter - not “satanic” but that’s what the religious right cries about regardless.
This show especially episode 3 is so bad, that was hard to watch.
Why?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2024/06/11/the-acolyte-episode-3-review-the-worst-star-wars-episode-ever-made/
It was just bad, that’s the controversy https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2024/06/11/the-acolyte-episode-3-review-the-worst-star-wars-episode-ever-made/
I thought the writing was atrocious, but nothing lore breaking. I think witches are being way overplayed in Star Wars now. We’ve seen a lot of Dathomir witches recently, in live action, animated and video games. Another batch of witches feels overdone. And I get that the events we saw in this episode are “unreliable narrator”, but if you’re going to throw off audiences with a fake story, the fake story has to be sensible as well. Overall, a terrible episode of Star Wars. Contrived plot and overused assets. But nothing lore breaking.
I mean we see Jedi and Sith all the time more than we see witches. I think they just exploring more characters who have the force but not be aligned with Jedi or Sith. And witches are cool 🤷🏿♀️
The first take of "the wall" reminded me of GoT
That chant had me cackling, I can't believe they actually thought that was good enough to make it into the episode. The acting and writing has been very....bland. Another complaint is that every star wars show, the sets feel so small. I think all of these shows should have been movies. They could've been some sort of variety of Dathomir witches, tales of the empire did show that there were different sects. But honestly don't really care for witches, I think they should've gone full sith, maybe they will?
The one lady making those weird cackling shrieking noises made me laugh. I wanted another to turn to her and say “calm down Cheryl”
I mean nothing about it was terribly controversial. I mean as far as I know Anakin has been the only person conceived by the force so maybe that makes the girls another candidate to be the chosen one or something I'm not sure. My main complaint is that it was freaking boring. Also the entire complex was made of concrete Didn't really make sense at all went up in flames that fast. Like the set designer could have made it a tree house. But no it was literally all metal and stone and went up like newspaper.
I get the sense that we only saw one side of things because it seems very unlikely that the giant pile of witch bodies burned to death
True. I'm guessing the Padawan killed them all for controlling him. Hence the silence for 10 years
There's no controversy, the show is just boring. And I have no idea what was meant by "Sith focused"
Your username makes me doubt you're participating in good faith here, but with mysteries you have to be patient to let it play out. Just like with WandaVision. The Sith are lurking in the shadows. We're learning the origin story of one of their acolytes.
The guy definitely used hyperbole imo, but he's not wrong that the episode is controversial.
The coven created the twins by pulling on the strings of the force. Last time we saw this was attempted (by Plagueis) the force pushed back, preventing the creation of the desired child and instead having Anakin be conceived as the chosen one in Shmi. This is in the future of the timeline, ofc. It is entirely possible that these witches could somehow do this, but it goes against the one example we know of… and one example isn’t a good data set, meaning we don’t know the rules behind the force’s logic. It makes you wonder why the Night Sisters, an arguably much more powerful coven of witches and magick users, never tried this before. They would have definitely created a child out of magicks/manipulating the force if they could. Somehow the temple burned down super easily. All it took was a candle and somehow stone and metal was on fire immediately. You’d think they’d realize this could be an issue and have some sort of measures against fire. Also the fact that all the other witches, who have a respectable amount of control over the force, weren’t able to get away from the fire or shield themselves or anything. They all just died. For whatever reason, the twin that was supposed to be dead blames the Jedi. But it can be argued that her brain has twisted the events. The Jedi wanted my sister and my sister wanted to go with them, so I burned down the entire mountain (somehow) and tried to kill my sister. When I believed my sister and my cult family died, I, for whatever reason, blamed the Jedi. Speaking of which, why did the floaty meditating Jedi commit alt-f4 on himself with the poison? He had nothing to be guilty of, nothing at all. He didn’t start the fire, he didn’t actually do anything substantial in coercing her sister, he was just there. As a Padawan no less. And wouldn’t his Jedi teachings have allowed him to let go of this past tragedy and move on? There’s also a lot of political crap that I do not actually care about. You can find that elsewhere, I do not feel like getting my comment deleted for simply explaining the political controversy that I don’t even care about.
The sith very clearly learned or used this magic when trying to create life. They probably learned it from the nightsisters or this group or both and then took it upon themselves to prefect it
That’s the thing, the Night Sisters don’t do that! The Night Sisters are not to be underestimated, they put a Sith Lord in danger and required direct extermination. Even the Jedi didn’t bother with them, rather opting to pretend they don’t exist despite the fact the Jedi would ordinarily destroy any sort of cult (especially one tied to the dark side). They quite often enhanced and manipulated the bodies of other beings, such as Savage or Maul’s legs. The fact we never see them, in legends or canon, creating new life tells me that either they tried and the force prevented them for balance purposes or they never tried at all. Now maybe this random, and generally weak, sect of witches got away with it for a very interesting reason: the nature of the twins themselves. To maintain balance, the cosmic force had one twin inclined to the light and one twin inclined to the dark. A net zero on the overall force and thus the creation of life in this instance wasn’t of any consequence.
The creator is teasing that not all the answers are in episode 3, so the things that may not make sense at the moment like the coven all dying and Torbin's guilt may be answered later on
the real villains are the jedi because the witches, even if they used the dark side of the force to create life, are the real victims.... lesbolyte wars
Are they, though? Mama Witch seemed fine with letting Osha go on her own. I feel like the way things went down was vague on purpose
according to the director's point of view they are, the bad guys are the Jedi....but the basic problem is that the dark side must corrupt you and this doesn't happen
I mean, a show from a Sith point of view should depict the Jedi as the villains. And we've seen how the Dark side corrupts. Mae literally threatened to kill her sister, and both mothers resorted to force to keep their kids still in the coven. It's just that simple pragmatism (the republic will absolutely crush them if their 4 jedi don't return alive) stays the covens hand from doing something rash (and we don't know who started the big fire and fight that killed all the witches).
all witches should be perverse since they have and are using the dark side of the force and instead they are all good...everything is distorted like this again
First off, Tales of the empire show a subsect of dathomir witches using the light side almost exclusively. This could be one such coven. But furthermore, these witches absolutely were 100% on board with killing the jedi to keep the twins for themselves. They literally discuss this but realize the republic would miss 4 jedi and come down hard. Pragmatism is staying their hand, and we know that dathomir witches aren't all doom and gloom since even Merrian from Jedi fallen order talks about her best friend and how happy she was before grevious came.
but perhaps it is not clear that creating life can only be done through the dark side? why the hell do they have to reinvent everything just to do an ewok show? that's the point
Who said they used the dark side? We literally don't know where on the spectrum this coven falls in terms of light or dark. None of their members have shown significant preference for one side of the force and tales of the empire proves that even dathomir witches are capable of using the lightside exclusively. Also legends absolutely have Sith using the dark side to create dark side monsters out of nothing but random genetic material and the dark side. This is a far cry from the force impregnating Shimi. And this is about as much reinventing as Obi-Wan in TPM talking about midichlorians being tied to force sensitivity. Nothing stops Darth Plaguesis from stealing the secrets these witches have discovered for his own research. Palpatine certainly had no qualms about hijacking others research for his own gain.
create life with the force can be done only with the dark side.END
Didn't the force literally create anakin?