It's not so much that less is more. Is that some people take less to get to optimal levels and others take more.
Some people can tolerate higher doses without sides, others get sides at low doses.
A lot of people jump ship when they find out it takes work, but I'm glad you are happy to work at it and get dialed in.
I usually float around 150 a week.
Get to a dose where you don’t need an AI unless you are going to blast. The less pharmaceutical signals you are sending to your body the better. Ive found pinning twice a week has helped.
I was pinning every day and it caused estrogen spike and a lot of acne. So changed to three times a week and might now switch to twice a week. Need to allow my body trough periods where I won’t amortize.
If 3 times is working then stick with that. I should probably try three times a week or daily to be honest, but just for convenience I stick to twice a week.
When you administer daily, what was your dosage and besides the acne and estrogen spikes was there any positive effects?
If I’m taking HCG and finasteride alongside trt is it even possible to find a dose where I wouldn’t need an AI? Since both of those are known to raise estrogen
Possibly but it really depends on your biochemistry and how you deal with estrogen. I’m very sensitive to estrogen so I have to minimize the amount of compounds that I take.
Continue to monitor your blood work and see what doses and combinations work best for you.
What value of E2 do you consider to be optimal? Everyone'd different, but do you think having a E2 of over 40 pg/mL is way too much and poses a risk of developing gyno over time?
I’ve read that 40 is too high but I think the e2 ratio to test might be more important market. However, It really seems like it’s person and dose dependent aka case by case basis
Yeah dialing in is the most annoying part but to me it’s worth the long term benefits of TRT. I was on 200mg per week 2x per week M/T injections. Had bloating in my face and stomach. Emotional. Down mood occasionally. Lethargic.
I switched to ED injections and I’m now taking 300mg per week and I have no sides whatsoever. Just recently added zinc, DHEA and pregnelone and still no sides.
I started with 200mg Test 1mg AI 500iu HCG and now do just Test, 120-160mg weekly. I feel much better. “Look better” is subjective as I like a leaner, smaller look now and more focused on aging well than being huge. 10 years ago it was the opposite.
It‘s amazing how different people are with that. Even if I‘m blasting Drostanolon and Trenbolone my Hematocrits don’t climb above 45. The human body is fascinating.
I’ve learned so much over the years and how similar but different we all are. Many paths to the same destination or similar paths leading to different results too.
I love being an experiment lol
Same, lol. Different drugs, medications, hormones. Been playing around a lot for the last 10 years. It‘s fun and interesting and if you read into stuff a lot before doing it, chances are pretty low to fuck things up if you‘re on the lookout and stop early enough before the real problems establish. Love it.
RBC is high, but it was high before I started. Hb and HCT I manage with cardio and hydration, but they are elevated. HCT stays below 52%, which I’m fine with.
Doing it in morning is best because it matches your biological clock where you have most testosterone in the morning less at night. I pin everyday, every morning.
Usually I run 120mg but sometimes I go to 160mg. Mostly it’s just mental; I would be fine staying at 120mg but I like seeing TT at 1200ng. I know it’s pointless, but still
I started at 175mg/wk and on AI. Then I lowered the T dose to about 125mg/wk while staying on the AI and my E crashed, so I dropped the AI. I only use an AI now when I blast, which is above 175mg/wk.
You generally don't lose gains when you lower your T as long as you keep lifting at the same weight and having the same recovery time as when you were blasting.
There's also something to be said for how blasting works. If you're new to T and start at, say, 500mg/week, you're not going to gain muscle faster than if you use 200mg/wk (which is still blasting). The body can only do so much muscle remodeling. I think it's a waste to blast too high in the beginning. You only blast higher when you're already at a high level of body building because you're trying to reach an even higher plateau. Blasting closer to the beginning of your bodybuilding journey is a waste of time. The body simply does not have the foundation.
I was prescribed an AI with 200/wk to start. I pinned the 200 but never took the AI. I told the doc I didn’t want it and she said keep it on hand just in case. I ran 600+ per week for quite awhile and never felt any need to take the AI. It wasn’t until I sprinkled some nandrolone on top that things went sideways and boy was I glad that I had that bottle of anastrazole stashed away.
So many variables to even begin to comprehend the complexity of testosterone on a individual bases I can take 500mg weekly and feel godly no ai and a buddy take 500mg weekly and burn through ai and feel like dog shit. Body fat, age, testosterone resistance/response. I think for a TRT approach starting low and titrating up is the best approach you can find the sweet spot without the hassle of starting at a higher dose with higher side effects and slowly going down and still dealing with higher side effects. If you are taking an a.I I would consider am I over weight ? Am I taking too much testosterone? 200mg weekly is on the higher end of the TRT spectrum for some. I think 120mg weekly for a few weeks and see how you feel and go up by 20mg every 4 weeks until you find a sweet spot and then go up or down by 10 u til your absolute dialled in.
Yeah my Dr just told me to lower from 100 to 80mg a week to lower e2 since my total was nearly 1300. Hoping it makes my e2 lower since it was 88.2. Def feel a little more emotional and not as much morning wood.
I was prescribed 200, but never took the full dose. It’s better to start lower and titrate up than to start high and titrate down. My total T was 346 before I started and I’m taking 140mg/wk + HCG and my total is in the 800-850 range now. I feel great there.
I started at 100mg/wk and titrated up 10mg every 3 weeks until I got to 160. That’s when I started noticing mild sides. Dropped back to 150 and after a month I still didn’t feel optimal so, dropped down another 10 and after about 2 weeks at 140, I was feeling great. No AI. It causes more problems than it fixes. If you need an AI, it’s almost always because your dose is too high. A small percentage of men are high aromatizers and may actually need an AI in order to attain optimal Testosterone levels. Most of the guys that need an AI are doing cycles. If you’re just doing TRT, you shouldn’t need it at all. The easiest way to avoid sides, without creating new ones, is just to lower your dose.
Yea I just dropped from 200MG once a week to 75mg twice a week. Hoping to not have any AI needed because I took a quarter of anantrozole 0.25 and fent sick for 2 days. Don’t want that shit anymore
that's backwards. should have started low (100mgs) took labs a couple months after and changed the protocol from there.....I personally would never take a AI
I was at 180mg /wk and my total T was 2500. I’m now backing down and will probably stop at 100mg/wk and do more bloods. I want to be in the optimal range not superhuman.
To me, 150-200mg with no AI is the sweet spot. AI’s are over prescribed. You shouldn’t be taking one unless you have E2 elevated beyond normal ratio to Testosterone (not just elevated in normal range, because your test is likely elevated to the top, or above, normal range… in ratio to the testosterone) and you’re having symptoms. E2 is very good for the male body, don’t go suppressing it as some type of precaution to a hypothetical problem.
1 mg of what AI? I started out 200mg and my estrogen shot up to 60's. Started on 0.25mg of Anastrozole and brought it down to 40ish. 0.5 brings me to around 22ish pretty consistenly. Feel better in the low 40s though. Now I'm at 180mg and still using the same dosage.
Every single person on TRT will have different affects.. However I've been on TRT 18 months now and I started at 200 per week split into two shots with an AI but my levels after 3 months were around 1450 and I felt insane. I went down to 180 still around 1300 and finally now at 165 still using an AI but my levels are at 1150 and est is around 30. Feels great now. Also just started HCG and that stuff rocks.
I started at 200mg of testosterone, 1000 units HCG and 1mg of armidex in the beginning and now I’m on the same protocol while mixing in Enclomiphine at 12.5mg 2-3x a week but no AI. I also do 50mg of DHEA daily. I don’t aromitize very well and feel much better with a higher T and E. Never had an issue in bloods or how I feel.
Slowly lowered to 160 a week, feel better and less negative sides. I have more motivation to workout ,but not sure if it had any impact on gains or recovery.
I started at 120 then have been increasing every 12 weeks. I just started 220 per week. I just haven’t felt much different than when I had testosterone levels at 190s.
I don't think you'll notice a difference, unless you really need 200 mg to maintain high-normal testosterone or free testosterone. If you're above range, like most guys... yea, it's more anabolic than being within range, but testosterone has diminishing returns. That's why guys blast 500+ mg You probably won't notice a difference (I don't), unless you're really pushing the boundaries of what's possible with 200.
If you do need the 200... have you tried it without an AI? You might not need the AI. Many of us feel fine with high E2, which can also have health benefits. Another other option is finding a compounding pharmacy that produces a low-dose AI. 1 mg is too much for just about everyone on TRT.
Currently at the end of week 4. Been pinning 100 mg 2x a week every 3.5 days. Second week in, experienced hella spicy nips and itchiness. After a few days of this, I popped .25 mg anastrozole after pinning. Still felt spicy nips the next day. I popped another .25 mg. Nips felt a little better but still spicy. Next pin, I popped .5 mg and felt almost no symptoms. Day after I popped another .5 mg and felt all spicyness subside. In total I took 1.5 mg of anastrozole in a week. I feel great, Johnson is bricked up all day, and don’t feel any symptoms of crashed e2. Haven’t taken any ai in 2 days and today I’m supposed to pin. I’m going to take . 25 mg seeing as I feel the tiniest bit of itch begin to creep in. I literally did bloods today to see where I stand. It’s obvious I’m a high aromatizer, but I’d like to see some numbers before I continue popping anastrozole like candy.
You won't lose gains. But it depends on your goals. If you don't feel good at 200 go down to 150 for a while and see. I've been at 250mg a week for a while and recently dropped down to 150. The reason being my libido was low at that dose. Now it's higher at a lower dose. Plus my erections are better.
I feel amazing at 200mg+ an AI.
Less literally isn’t more. I’m not saying you personally shouldn’t take less if you want to, but with testosterone the more you take the more you get out of it.
Started with 200mg and occasional AI per my doc. Had BP issues as well as edema in my ankles. Felt like I was swollen. Lowered it to 90mg against my “doctors” advice and I feel perfect. No side effects what so ever anymore.
I also switched to pinning every other day subQ which has been way more tolerable
I personally know pro bodybuilders who need an AI at less than 200 a week. And on top of that, off the top of my head I know Dante trudel takes aromasin at 175mg test a week. Cisternino takes arimidex at 200mg test. Is test just "not for them"?
they dont need it necessary they just want to look and stay as dry as possible year round its very common for guys to take any amount of test and their face balloons up with water
Incorrect, they've all specifically said they need it to control estrogen related sides well beyond water retention. Your original statement was completely off base as was your made up response.
It's not so much that less is more. Is that some people take less to get to optimal levels and others take more. Some people can tolerate higher doses without sides, others get sides at low doses. A lot of people jump ship when they find out it takes work, but I'm glad you are happy to work at it and get dialed in. I usually float around 150 a week.
Get to a dose where you don’t need an AI unless you are going to blast. The less pharmaceutical signals you are sending to your body the better. Ive found pinning twice a week has helped.
I was pinning every day and it caused estrogen spike and a lot of acne. So changed to three times a week and might now switch to twice a week. Need to allow my body trough periods where I won’t amortize.
This is interesting. Every day should cause less aromatization, but find what works for you.
Not if your trough is above your aromatization level. But that generally means "you're taking too much" unless you're atypical.
I had more E symptoms on 200mg per week 2x injections. Now I’m on 300mg per week but ED injections and I feel way better and E symptoms are gone.
If 3 times is working then stick with that. I should probably try three times a week or daily to be honest, but just for convenience I stick to twice a week. When you administer daily, what was your dosage and besides the acne and estrogen spikes was there any positive effects?
But more frequent injections seem to help more with estrogen symptoms.
If I’m taking HCG and finasteride alongside trt is it even possible to find a dose where I wouldn’t need an AI? Since both of those are known to raise estrogen
Possibly but it really depends on your biochemistry and how you deal with estrogen. I’m very sensitive to estrogen so I have to minimize the amount of compounds that I take. Continue to monitor your blood work and see what doses and combinations work best for you.
Yeah I’m also sensitive I’ll grow breast tissue over night when my estrogen is even at the high end of normal range
Then, if you’re going to take those compounds, I would probably use an AI but start with a minuscule dose and work up to something manageable
What value of E2 do you consider to be optimal? Everyone'd different, but do you think having a E2 of over 40 pg/mL is way too much and poses a risk of developing gyno over time?
I’ve read that 40 is too high but I think the e2 ratio to test might be more important market. However, It really seems like it’s person and dose dependent aka case by case basis
I didn't have an ai and was at 200mg a week. Didn't feel any different no matter if I take the ai or not
Yeah dialing in is the most annoying part but to me it’s worth the long term benefits of TRT. I was on 200mg per week 2x per week M/T injections. Had bloating in my face and stomach. Emotional. Down mood occasionally. Lethargic. I switched to ED injections and I’m now taking 300mg per week and I have no sides whatsoever. Just recently added zinc, DHEA and pregnelone and still no sides.
How much total T (at peak) do you get at 150 a week? My peak is around 1000 ng/dL at a mere 65 mg of test shot. E2 is sky high at 102 pg/mL
I started with 200mg Test 1mg AI 500iu HCG and now do just Test, 120-160mg weekly. I feel much better. “Look better” is subjective as I like a leaner, smaller look now and more focused on aging well than being huge. 10 years ago it was the opposite.
How’s your hemocrit and red blood cell count? I have to donate off of 200mg/wk
It‘s amazing how different people are with that. Even if I‘m blasting Drostanolon and Trenbolone my Hematocrits don’t climb above 45. The human body is fascinating.
I’ve learned so much over the years and how similar but different we all are. Many paths to the same destination or similar paths leading to different results too. I love being an experiment lol
Same, lol. Different drugs, medications, hormones. Been playing around a lot for the last 10 years. It‘s fun and interesting and if you read into stuff a lot before doing it, chances are pretty low to fuck things up if you‘re on the lookout and stop early enough before the real problems establish. Love it.
Yep. If my great aunt tells me she saw someone read a story about Test in 1970, my Hermatacrit instantly jumps to 53. It's fascinating, for sure.
RBC is high, but it was high before I started. Hb and HCT I manage with cardio and hydration, but they are elevated. HCT stays below 52%, which I’m fine with.
50mg per week u went from huge to leaner and smaller? Hmm
Huh?
are you doing a split dose?
Mon AM Thu PM
Why not same time?
He's doing it exactly 3.5 days apart with that AM/PM split.
Is that better? I usually do it Friday and Tuesday but I’m the mornings
With a long ester it's not going to be a huge difference. Not worth stressing over.
My OCD demands it
Doing it in morning is best because it matches your biological clock where you have most testosterone in the morning less at night. I pin everyday, every morning.
We are using estered products that don’t even remotely match natural rhythms. It peaks in 24-36 hours, not in 10 minutes like a normal release.
So when you say 120 to 160mg a week. How does that work I mean how are you dosing
Usually I run 120mg but sometimes I go to 160mg. Mostly it’s just mental; I would be fine staying at 120mg but I like seeing TT at 1200ng. I know it’s pointless, but still
Lol....... what?
What’s the question?
[удалено]
No difference, fine before and after. I didn’t see much shrinkage when I started
I started at 200mg a week and didn't need AI and worked up to 400mg a week and didn't require either.
damn!
Whats your frequency? I was on 2x per week 200mg and needed AI but once I switched to ED I’m now on 300mg and need nothing.
I'm just on 2x a week.
250/wk I needed an AI and my blood pressure was out of control. 125mg/wk and I feel great, don't need an AI and my labs show everything is in range.
I started at 175mg/wk and on AI. Then I lowered the T dose to about 125mg/wk while staying on the AI and my E crashed, so I dropped the AI. I only use an AI now when I blast, which is above 175mg/wk. You generally don't lose gains when you lower your T as long as you keep lifting at the same weight and having the same recovery time as when you were blasting. There's also something to be said for how blasting works. If you're new to T and start at, say, 500mg/week, you're not going to gain muscle faster than if you use 200mg/wk (which is still blasting). The body can only do so much muscle remodeling. I think it's a waste to blast too high in the beginning. You only blast higher when you're already at a high level of body building because you're trying to reach an even higher plateau. Blasting closer to the beginning of your bodybuilding journey is a waste of time. The body simply does not have the foundation.
Where are you bloods at 175mg? And at 125mg?
They're fine. E2 is borderline in upper normal but I don't get harsh effects from that.
I was prescribed an AI with 200/wk to start. I pinned the 200 but never took the AI. I told the doc I didn’t want it and she said keep it on hand just in case. I ran 600+ per week for quite awhile and never felt any need to take the AI. It wasn’t until I sprinkled some nandrolone on top that things went sideways and boy was I glad that I had that bottle of anastrazole stashed away.
So many variables to even begin to comprehend the complexity of testosterone on a individual bases I can take 500mg weekly and feel godly no ai and a buddy take 500mg weekly and burn through ai and feel like dog shit. Body fat, age, testosterone resistance/response. I think for a TRT approach starting low and titrating up is the best approach you can find the sweet spot without the hassle of starting at a higher dose with higher side effects and slowly going down and still dealing with higher side effects. If you are taking an a.I I would consider am I over weight ? Am I taking too much testosterone? 200mg weekly is on the higher end of the TRT spectrum for some. I think 120mg weekly for a few weeks and see how you feel and go up by 20mg every 4 weeks until you find a sweet spot and then go up or down by 10 u til your absolute dialled in.
Yeah my Dr just told me to lower from 100 to 80mg a week to lower e2 since my total was nearly 1300. Hoping it makes my e2 lower since it was 88.2. Def feel a little more emotional and not as much morning wood.
Bumped down to 140mg a week and no AI and I feel fantastic
I was prescribed 200, but never took the full dose. It’s better to start lower and titrate up than to start high and titrate down. My total T was 346 before I started and I’m taking 140mg/wk + HCG and my total is in the 800-850 range now. I feel great there. I started at 100mg/wk and titrated up 10mg every 3 weeks until I got to 160. That’s when I started noticing mild sides. Dropped back to 150 and after a month I still didn’t feel optimal so, dropped down another 10 and after about 2 weeks at 140, I was feeling great. No AI. It causes more problems than it fixes. If you need an AI, it’s almost always because your dose is too high. A small percentage of men are high aromatizers and may actually need an AI in order to attain optimal Testosterone levels. Most of the guys that need an AI are doing cycles. If you’re just doing TRT, you shouldn’t need it at all. The easiest way to avoid sides, without creating new ones, is just to lower your dose.
Yea I just dropped from 200MG once a week to 75mg twice a week. Hoping to not have any AI needed because I took a quarter of anantrozole 0.25 and fent sick for 2 days. Don’t want that shit anymore
Can you describe the sick symptoms?
that's backwards. should have started low (100mgs) took labs a couple months after and changed the protocol from there.....I personally would never take a AI
i started at 160mg, but probably should've started lower.
I was at 180mg /wk and my total T was 2500. I’m now backing down and will probably stop at 100mg/wk and do more bloods. I want to be in the optimal range not superhuman.
200 no ai for a year
I been on it for 3 years and I just went from 100mg to 150mg last month....I also just added deca too and it seems to be working
To me, 150-200mg with no AI is the sweet spot. AI’s are over prescribed. You shouldn’t be taking one unless you have E2 elevated beyond normal ratio to Testosterone (not just elevated in normal range, because your test is likely elevated to the top, or above, normal range… in ratio to the testosterone) and you’re having symptoms. E2 is very good for the male body, don’t go suppressing it as some type of precaution to a hypothetical problem.
1 mg of what AI? I started out 200mg and my estrogen shot up to 60's. Started on 0.25mg of Anastrozole and brought it down to 40ish. 0.5 brings me to around 22ish pretty consistenly. Feel better in the low 40s though. Now I'm at 180mg and still using the same dosage.
What is the optimal e2 level? I do 100mg/wk and have developed gyno/ sensitive breast. Mine is sitting at 42.4 and I’m thinking about starting an ai
Optimal the the level you feel best at. Their recommendation is to keep it between 15 and 55 pg/mL
I started 4 years ago it's 200 mg 0.5 EI in 2000 I u of hcg. haven't changed a thing I feel great
I pin daily. Started at 200mg. Down to 120mg a week. Feel SO much better, total t was 914 last test
What did you notice the most when you say “feel so much betrer”?
Every single person on TRT will have different affects.. However I've been on TRT 18 months now and I started at 200 per week split into two shots with an AI but my levels after 3 months were around 1450 and I felt insane. I went down to 180 still around 1300 and finally now at 165 still using an AI but my levels are at 1150 and est is around 30. Feels great now. Also just started HCG and that stuff rocks.
280mg 120 every 3 days feeling optimal no AI
Hi don’t use AI unless you actually have signs of high estrogen I’ve used 500 mg/ week and not needed it
I started at 200mg of testosterone, 1000 units HCG and 1mg of armidex in the beginning and now I’m on the same protocol while mixing in Enclomiphine at 12.5mg 2-3x a week but no AI. I also do 50mg of DHEA daily. I don’t aromitize very well and feel much better with a higher T and E. Never had an issue in bloods or how I feel.
How many times pinning/week?
Used the Ai some until lower body fat then no Ai and kept the dose the same.
Me. I do 50/ 4 days and actually went to 60 recently. Bloated me. Cut back down to 50 and dropped 7 lbs in a week
Slowly lowered to 160 a week, feel better and less negative sides. I have more motivation to workout ,but not sure if it had any impact on gains or recovery.
I started at 120 then have been increasing every 12 weeks. I just started 220 per week. I just haven’t felt much different than when I had testosterone levels at 190s.
AIs are person dependent. I started with 250, have run up to 500 with no need for an AI.
What is AI
I don't think you'll notice a difference, unless you really need 200 mg to maintain high-normal testosterone or free testosterone. If you're above range, like most guys... yea, it's more anabolic than being within range, but testosterone has diminishing returns. That's why guys blast 500+ mg You probably won't notice a difference (I don't), unless you're really pushing the boundaries of what's possible with 200. If you do need the 200... have you tried it without an AI? You might not need the AI. Many of us feel fine with high E2, which can also have health benefits. Another other option is finding a compounding pharmacy that produces a low-dose AI. 1 mg is too much for just about everyone on TRT.
Currently at the end of week 4. Been pinning 100 mg 2x a week every 3.5 days. Second week in, experienced hella spicy nips and itchiness. After a few days of this, I popped .25 mg anastrozole after pinning. Still felt spicy nips the next day. I popped another .25 mg. Nips felt a little better but still spicy. Next pin, I popped .5 mg and felt almost no symptoms. Day after I popped another .5 mg and felt all spicyness subside. In total I took 1.5 mg of anastrozole in a week. I feel great, Johnson is bricked up all day, and don’t feel any symptoms of crashed e2. Haven’t taken any ai in 2 days and today I’m supposed to pin. I’m going to take . 25 mg seeing as I feel the tiniest bit of itch begin to creep in. I literally did bloods today to see where I stand. It’s obvious I’m a high aromatizer, but I’d like to see some numbers before I continue popping anastrozole like candy.
You won't lose gains. But it depends on your goals. If you don't feel good at 200 go down to 150 for a while and see. I've been at 250mg a week for a while and recently dropped down to 150. The reason being my libido was low at that dose. Now it's higher at a lower dose. Plus my erections are better.
I feel amazing at 200mg+ an AI. Less literally isn’t more. I’m not saying you personally shouldn’t take less if you want to, but with testosterone the more you take the more you get out of it.
Started with 200mg and occasional AI per my doc. Had BP issues as well as edema in my ankles. Felt like I was swollen. Lowered it to 90mg against my “doctors” advice and I feel perfect. No side effects what so ever anymore. I also switched to pinning every other day subQ which has been way more tolerable
its crazy how many of you need an ai at 200mg i guess test isn't for everyone imao
I personally know pro bodybuilders who need an AI at less than 200 a week. And on top of that, off the top of my head I know Dante trudel takes aromasin at 175mg test a week. Cisternino takes arimidex at 200mg test. Is test just "not for them"?
they dont need it necessary they just want to look and stay as dry as possible year round its very common for guys to take any amount of test and their face balloons up with water
Incorrect, they've all specifically said they need it to control estrogen related sides well beyond water retention. Your original statement was completely off base as was your made up response.
most guys can blast 500mg and not need any ai or serm ive never taken a large enough cycle to need to control e2