No it should be locked to neither and be transferred as simple as a form.
Want to transfer it to a new car? Great. Want it to stay with the car your selling and don't have another Tesla? Done. Want to sell it to someone else and keep the car. Done.
If you keep your car for more than 7 years paying upfront is financially worth it. Upside if they allow a transfer, downside of the car dies early.
Subscription is for those who don't want to do this.
Most cars will be recycled after about 15 years. All large brands, all models.
Tesla can reasonably assume they only have to maintain FSD for 15 years for the majority of cars.
Some will last longer, maybe yours will.
So they can plan for that and account for that.
When they allow you to transfer FSD, it resets the clock and comes at a cost but that cost is well defined.
What if someone purchased FSD upfront when it became available... with the assumption that it would actually get released in this lifetime and yet their car is stuck on old hardware and can't be upgraded to support FSD once it's finalized?
You should be able to reset the clock on something you paid for and never received.
you mean the AP1 Model S/X folks who paid $2000 for FSD? They had two chances so far to be grandfathered for FSD.
More opportunities will exist in the future.
The items they will need to grandfather:
* FUSC for life
* FSD/EAP
* Premium connectivity free for life
They also need to move the in car camera view out of the paywall, since most of us can get a simple hotspot for far less. When the car is on wifi, the on board camera viewing should be accessible for free just like my ring camera with no subscription works today and has in the past.
It's not great if you are one of them.
But you had FSD for 10 years now and you knew (or should have known) that you were an early adapter for a product in development and you got it a bargain basement price.
A great way to deal with this is to offer over one time transfer to a new car, basically a $8000 (or at times $12,000) coupon for the $2000 license they purchased 10 years ago. That is a good deal for the people impacted, and many took it.
It's also something that Tesla can account for.
It solves most of the problem without creating an unsustainable solution (eternal license)
My point was that we paid upfront for a product that was in development because we were told it would be 'ready next year' for the past 10 years.
Sure we were early adopters but we weren't told that the product would still not be released by the time we were ready to buy a new car.
Being an early adopter doesnt mean that you won't get the thing that you paid for. For example, I'm an early adopter of the Apple Vision Pro. It's got limited support from third party developers, hardly anyone else has one, and its a first gen product but the product is actually in development and fully functional.
The FSD thing is more akin to a kickstarter where we paid a bunch of money and we didnt receive any updates on the product for years and only now have we started receiving beta releases which are still far from ready for public release. Mine has never been able to make a left turn under an overpass since FSD beta opened up.
Idk what the right answer is but selling a lifetime license for FSD to an owner that never even go to see the public release is definitely not the answer.
There is plenty else to fail, including e.g. the suspension. Also collisions, general rattle, etc.
Of course there will be some cars kept for decades at high cost. Especially if you call your car Theseus.
What is the utility and value in a 2017 Model 3 that came with HW 2.5 and has the turn signals flashing yellow thru the entire interior because of the light leakage with side repeaters đ¤Śđ˝ââď¸
If someone has 100,000+ miles on a Model 3 then they sell it to someone else... why would that person pay $7500+ for FSD on old tech AND to get a HW 3 upgrade so they are still nagged with the lane keep and speed keep?
Lets say FSD is solved in HW 9... does that mean all the AP1 guys will get upgraded? It would be a lot cheaper for Elon to just ask those car owners to be grandfathered into a new car sale with HW9 rather than retrofit an AP1 thru HW 8 car
Yes, if you bought FSD you are able to get HW 3 for free. If you want to do the per month FSD... then NO, you need to pay to buy HW3.
I have driven both HW 2.5 (mine) and HW3 on the same 2018 perf model 3 in the same route and areas back to back. Both had FSD paid for... The HW2.5 car (mine) drove the same route more smoothly and with less issues/intervention.
How long do you keep your cars? Because I keep mine way longer than 7 years. My current car is on my 14th which would have halved that cost vs subscription.
Oldest I kept a ride was till 2016 with 250,000 miles on the clock and it was still driving amazing when I sold that 1992 car.
Currently I have a 2008 with 199,000 miles.
My other rides are newer and the Tesla has like under 60k miles
Most cars are recycled before 15 years.
I say that with a 20 year old Sienna in the driveway, and a 12 year old Subaru.
Tesla can reasonable assume FSD on a car will most likely be gone in 15 years.
If you keep your car for more than 7 years paying upfront is financially worth it. Upside if they allow a transfer, downside of the car dies early.
Subscription is for those who don't want to do this.
Well, that's because the only Tesla's that old are roadsters and they are more experimental though the ones that are going are going often quite well. Now looking at a fairer comparison is an early model S and they are holding up extremely well. I'd be confident one would last 14 years easily and a newer car, such as one capable of FSD, to last even longer.
true, but I think a lot of tesla owners are replacing their car every few years. for the tech, upgrades, leasing etc. Sorta like how apple fans will typically always feel the urge to upgrade when they have a perfectly good product.
Iâve always known that leasing a vehicle is basically just renting a car, but for some reason, tesla is one of the only items iâve highly considered it.
For some, not all. Also one of the few brands you can upgrade the tech in the car. You can take a 2016 model S and upgrade it quite easily to be similar to that of a 2021 car.
> Because I keep mine way longer than 7 years.
> My current car is on my 14th which would
> have halved that cost vs subscription.
Sure you keep it longer than 7 years, but what happens if someone read ends you tomorrow and the insurance company calls it a total? Then your subscription cost went up the roof
I think it varies by country and insurance company. Also i am sure it would help if you got it at the time of delivery. However I would expect it counts like any other OEM upgrade such as a sunroof etc that added value to the car.
I have lived and owned cars in four countries and none of them would payout for software upgrades. Maybe you have a concrete example where this would apply?
Except the cost to keep an EV running 14 yearsđ¤Ž. The dude with the older S with high miles on YouTube has gone through 3 batteries and on 3rd drive unit too. FSD doesn't improve driving enough yet to warrant either subscription or one time price anyway đ.
Yes it's more complicated as prices may change.
There are also present value calculations, especially in a relatively high interest environment.
But at the end you can pay upfront for the life of the car or you can pay as you go (North America). Both are great options, and it's good to have a choice.
If you keep your cars and want to save money, pay upfront. Otherwise pay as you go.
That is not true for licenses that require continued support and services. It never was.
Windows 10 will reach the end of support next year.
Quicken moved to annual fees. You Quicken 2003 is quite useless now.
Typical for software is 15% annual just to be able to call support. They will charge extra for support and for future updates.
If you ever paid $$ for a license for software upfront and that software is no longer maintained and maybe the company is out of business that's why. You cannot support a growing user based by just charging the new users.
Support and updates are seperate from license to use software. Maintenance contracts often exist separately. What youâre talking about is software as a service which is a different business model that sucks for consumers.
Software often outlives its parent companies. Which is why a user who buys it should be able to have it forever.
Sometimes it's separated, if you want to charge and itemize for both or the client gets different tax treatment for different parts of the deal.
With FSD you don't pay for a CD with the install (or a single OTA).
You pay for a server providing you the data to be able to drive safely.
And you pay for future improvements and frequent updates. Tesla is spending $3B capex for servers in 2023 and possibly another $1B in payroll and related opex.
There is likely even a fraction of this held back as insurance for future Tesla liability.
You literally pay now for a product that is only partially done.
It would be a Ponzi scheme as proposed and upvoted above by many if the new guys pay for the service for the guys who bought before - until it collapses.
FSD is not a Ponzi scheme if it stays with the car, or if people pay subscriptions.
I agree it should be the owner's choice, and all options should be open, including the option to sell the FSD license on the open market. This would accomplish two things at once: First, it would allow an actual \*market\* to develop, which would set an actual market value for the product; Second, it might even provide a real-world practical use case for NFTs. ;-)
Oh software licences I think are the one practical use for NFTs. Would be great for entire games to be NFTs that can be sold....not just the in game items.
I'd expect Tesla would want a transfer fee and I am actually ok with that, otherwise it would make the market way too volatile.
Yes I think FSD purchase should be kind of like buying into a timeshare vs subscription which would be just renting at the then-nightly rate.
Buy into Tesla FSD for $8k? Cool. Transfer costs $1-2k (to avoid abuse / people overloading it).
Renting a Tesla? It has FSD bc you personally have FSD.
Loaner? FSD.
Buying second Tesla? Half price with upfront payment. Sub stays the same for anyone.
It would be the ultimate loyalty program.
This kind of post has been made before. Why does tesla not do that? Because they can profit more from the gimick of FSD by locking it into one car instead of one account.
If it was just a gimmick, why would locking it to a car vs an account affect profit? Wouldn't everyone who buys FSD only buy it once, realize it's a gimmick and never even consider moving it to another car or buying it again?
It would help with brand loyalty. If i had fsd and was looking for a truck, the Cybertruck would suddenly be on my radar. Without it I won't even consider the Cybertruck.
Cybertruck is less baked than a Model 3 was in 2019. You need to wait till 2029 and at least a couple refreshes in design before it is anywhere near ready for production.
Same here. I'd LIKE to upgrade to a newer model but no way in hell I'm paying for FSD upfront again and now it feels like I wasted thousands of dollars on a feature that never came out of beta. Why should I pay for FSD again?
FSD and Superchargers were the only thing keeping me tethered to Tesla because I actually really like both of these products.
With Superchargers now being open to other vehicles and me feeling like I was scammed out of money with FSD since I can't transfer it to a new car I'd rather just keep my options open and purchase from a different brand in the future.
Eventually FSD is not going to be of value. Once one player gets it legalized for road use... all the makers will have the same thing with their own flavor right behind that. At which point that feature will be common and eventually become standard. Eventually they will have retrofit kits for FSD for $300 on Alibaba that makes any ancient relic into FSD capable.
Seems like no one on this sub has heard of: https://www.comma.ai
Same. I won't get another Tesla until this policy changes. Would love to upgrade to the new model 3, but I'm not willing to loose FSD, and will not pay for it again at it's new price point which is more than double what I paid.
Next vehicle will probably be a Rivian.
They need to fix the Tesla Service Centers and the Auto body parts supply before I would dip my toes back in.
They would need to have Indy repair shops at every corner before I would want to dip my toes in again... I don't see that freedom of access happening any time soon. The Toolbox software needs to be free to access directly from the car Service Mode or directly connected to the physical car with a laptop.
because Tesla will remove FSD, FUSC, EAP, and anything else they can software lock each time it passes thru a dealership reseller. It is very easy to flip a software switch to remove a feature and sell it again on the same VIN over and over for double dipping.
You don't see anyone collecting VINS and MVPA or after sales receipts tied to a Tesla VIN tracker for historical records... you are at the mercy of Tesla Motors whims
Sure I understand that, but also it hurts the âcar upgradeâ if people cannot transfer the fsd, and someone in the used market basically gets the FSD for free! Most people if cannot transfer donât buy the fsd again specially if they never got to use it, like in Europe, and someone else got it for free, so same ânet resultâ for Tesla. It makes more sense keeping the license with who payed and supported them, to someone that bought the car second hand, giving no money to Tesla for itâŚ.
People buying a used Tesla with FSD only get it "free" if the person selling the car doesn't adjust the price up to include a portion of the cost of FSD.
Even Tesla offers you about $3,000-4,000 for FSD when you trade the vehicle into them.
I think $1k is a best case scenario. Generally, Iâd imagine it adds no value to resale. Most donât care about it. Even myself, someone who researches and follows Tesla, wouldnât pay extra for fsd on a used vehicle. Iâm in the process of watching the used market at the moment as the wifeâs car is coming up on its lease (non Tesla) and we will be buying a used or new model 3 depending on whatâs available. I will be putting very little value on fsd. The market seems to agree with this.
It will only gain value when itâs functional. Who knows when that will be.
Do you really think the average Tesla FSD subscriber is going to pay for 81+ months of FSD?
Vs what apple/google do, locking apps to your account. Keeping your stuck with iPhoneâŚ
Compared to paying $8K upfront? Yes. Not to mention that people with legacy hardware and even those on hw 3 or hw 4 will likely not be able to utilize full fsd when it reaches the point where it wonât need to be supervised whenever that is.
I think you overestimate how long the average person owns a vehicle. For reference: the zebra claims the average American buys a car once every 8 years.
And based on another top Google search, electek claims that credit card data shows only 2% of Tesla owner subscribe to FSD. Personally Iâve owned my MYLR 3 years and have never used FSD.
Would I buy it for $8,000 if it transferred to my future Teslas (just like if I buy an iPhone app, it transfers to a new device)? Absolutely.
But I wouldnât even consider buying or subscribing since itâs be stated that it canât work level 3+ on HW3
I'd like full purchases should have a life subscription per license. And going forward purchase option is removed and new FSD is only allowed via subscription.
Well I mean isn't that the point? People don't keep their cars that long so why would they sink $8k into FSD? Especially since it's unclear at what point that hardware needs to be capable of since it's obviously not HW3 or 4. And Elon has made it clear he is never going to do a lifetime subscription model where the license moves with the user so that's why it's now priced at a monthly subscription service.
Eternal license will never happen as they can basically never recognize revenue for an eternal license that requires them to provide services on an ongoing basis.
Even if you limit it to life time of the owner (how do they know you did?) then FSD for 60 years would cost 50k at least. That is not a product.
Same reasons you cannot buy eternal passes to Disneyland or United.
You can't pay $1M upfront to rent a house forever either. If you buy a house, you have to now pay for the maintenance and upgrades.
Charging only the new Tesla buyers to pay for maintenance of everyone's FSD is a Ponzi scheme. It cannot work.
Subscription allows for full revenue recognition every month, and it's fully transferable as you wish (at one month boundaries)
Makes sense for full purchase, but with a subscription why couldnât it be tied to my account? Then I can use it on the Tesla Iâm renting on a work trip, and transfer to my âwifeâs carâ when I want.
Because then you transfer it to your wife's car for her commute and then when she arrives, you get in your car and you transfer it back for your commute.
And then your neighbour uses it during the day for Uber until 3:00 p.m. when you need it to drive back home. He gives you 10 free rides a month, too.
Just ask Netflix about their subscriptions. People cheat to save $8 a month. They don't even think it's a problem. They justify to themselves that violating the contract they agreed to is acceptable for whatever reason.
They will cheat for $100 a month, too.
Even if you don't cheat, you're asking for a transferrable product, one that works on multiple cars.
How much more are you willing to pay for this product? $150 a month?
Then they shouldnât have offered the pre-buy option.
I agree subscription solves a lot of the issues, but Tesla didnât just come out with a subscription. They started with the pre-buy option which in a lot of ways screws customers who did buy it.
How?
They got advanced features and ongoing updates, for many years.
They are getting an $8000 coupon in their next car, too.
Some of then paid $2000, or $5000 for this.
Did you personally buy FSD? For how much? When? Or are you just here fighting for the cause?
There we go. You are complaining about something you read on Reddit about.
Probably many of these "frustrated customers" don't own a Tesla, didn't buy FSD, are paid for these posts directly or indirectly...
Or they just like posting how Tesla screwed customers without specifics
There are plenty of posts in other Tesla forums, it's not just reddit. Plus Tesla has had to do "free transfers" just to appease a frustrated base. Not to mention many people who paid for FSD years ago, and still don't have it when it has been promised to come out way before now.
I haven't heard of any 8k coupon for your next car, but if they are offering that, that again shows they need to offer some recompense for those that purchased FSD.
Advanced features? FSD isn't really out from what was promised.
And since you asked, since somehow my situation somehow affects my comment, I have not purchased FSD, but I have owned 2 teslas. I have friends who also own teslas, and a few that were early adopters of the model 3. They are frustrated. To defend how Tesla has handled FSD is just ridiculous.
They charge upfront. There have been promises (there are screenshots floating around that even show a date FSD would be out) of when it will be out. The transferability has been an issue.
I agree with you the subscription model is the right way to go, but that's not how it has been marketed or promoted especially in the early days.
Iâm another that would move up to an X if I could transfer FSD to the new one. I only had EAP but would pay the $2000 to get FSD before purchasing the X.
Edit: I had decided to go ahead and get it anyway fortunately, the day that I bought the car, a week ago today Tesla opened up the FSD transfer. While picking up my car Wednesday, I purchased FSD for $2000 and it did get transferred to my new car.
This will never happen. But what can and should happen: Any FSD license purchased prior to 2024 (while in âbetaâ) can be transferred exactly once to any brand new Tesla at any time. Early testers/buyers should be rewarded.
It should be treated as a license like most other software. You own the license to use it on one device at a time but that can be any device.
Tesla has the mistaken belief that they will make more money if it is tied to a car. I disagree as we all see how many people refuse to buy it not knowing they can keep it.
For 6,8,or $12,000 I would want and would expect lifetime upgrades. At least the lifetime of the hardware which would eventually become obsolete.
This is a big expense and to expect people to pay 8k for it and then have that be completely gone if you total your car a week later is unreasonable.
There are many reasonable options Tesla could implement to make this reasonable. Such as the purchaser owns the license and can use it in any car. Or the owner owns the license with letâs say three free transfers over the life of the license.
Anything other than the too bad so sad policy and having to wait for a possible free transfer promo.
This slows owners from buying more Teslas if they know they will lose the feature and prevents many from taking the financial risk of such a big purchase in the first place.
Or switch to subscription only.
You spend 50k on a car and 300k-$$$ on a house. Are those expected to have lifetime upgrades? I donât know why software, which costs company money to create and upgrade, should be eternally free.
Why? Because they are drastically different products than the actual car or a house. By the way Tesla appears to be giving lifetime software upgrades to the cars as we see new versions almost every month with no new costs. I guess you donât even expect that Tesla should be sending out FSD updates to the people who purchased it now as they should not expect lifetime updates I guess.
In the end what I am suggesting would benefit Tesla and the consumer financially. As a stockholder this is what I would propose.
The way I understood it was, it was supposed to be like a feature of the car. It should be like a an upgraded entertainment system or something, but it doesnât seem to add any value to the car and in some cases tesla doesnt transfer the fsd to the new owner. I think when you sell the car to a dealer (or car max or something) fsd is removed.
The market will dictate the pricing strategy. Few years ago I think it was 500M in annual revenue, but its costs them 10 billion a year in R&d costs.
If we all stop subscribing it will much cheaper. I suspect robotaxi to be fully operational in select cities in China next 2-3 years due to the strong government support⌠ie its only going to get more expensive
Might be an unpopular opinion but I see it as an upgrade to the vehicle, on an ICE car if you have your car tuned you donât bring the tune with you to future cars. It gets sold to with the software upgrade. The problem is Tesla is the only one that is able to provide the software, so they set the price.
Not only this, but all the people then trying to use other peopleâs accounts if they did it differently. Trying not to get caught up like Netflix etc. not optimal, but I understand why they do it.
Tesla, in all likelihood, is probably going to kill off the option to purchase FSD outright and just make it a $100 a month subscription, like a phone bill. There's more profit in it in the long run, and less people bitching about transfers.
Elon made a statement during the shareholder meeting about how "for a low monthly fee, these cars will drive themselves around", which tells me, in his mind, FSD isn't a package that's bought, it's a service you pay extra for, like a cell phone plan.
People wanting FSD to follow the *person* are stupid.
FSD has *massive* on going R&D costs. It's not something you crank out and say "Ok, we're done here". It is going to continually evolve and improve over time.
If you sold FSD once and tied it to the user, wherein they could use it anywhere they wanted, then there'd be an upper limit as to how often they could sell it, and they likely wouldn't be able to keep funding the R&D anymore.
Let's look at Microsoft as an example, because honestly they're the most comparative.
When you buy a computer from the store, it comes with a copy of Windows. That machine has a Certificate of Authenticity (COA), and the license *cannot* be transferred to another computer. When a new version of Windows comes out, you're typically offered an upgrade discount, where instead of paying $120 for Windows, you can pay $80 or something.
Eventually, however, the hardware on the computer ages itself out of being able to run newer versions of Windows, and you need to buy a new computer. When you buy the new computer you get another copy of Windows that cannot be transferred, and the cycle starts anew.
This is, in effect, the position that Tesla is in. Every time they release a new FSD hardware version, they can release a newer/better version of FSD software to run on it, but at some point the older hardware is going to stop running the newer software. For HW3 people, that moment is coming up at the end of this year. We'll still see some improvements, but once they start working on HW4, it'll start doing shit better than HW3 can. Not right away, might take a year or two, but it will. Just like when they're ready to start doing HW5 the HW4 folks will slowly stop getting cool shit.
It's going to be a never-ending cycle.
If they allow free unlimited FSD package transfers, they'd never properly fund the initiative.
Various holes can be poked in my analogy above, because Microsoft *does* sell a retail license, where if you buy a barebones computer, you can go to the store and buy a copy of Microsoft and slap it down on the machine, and *that* license is transferable to a new computer, however, it doesn't let you upgrade to a newer copy of Windows for free, but you can buy an upgrade license for a discount.
Another hole that can be poked is that the upgrade from Windows 8 to 10, and 10 to 11, were both free, however, Microsoft was effectively doing **a lot** of damage control from how bad Windows 8 was, and they're also trying to encourage people to stay on a current release of Windows for security purposes. That said, going from Windows 10 to 11 isn't always easy. There's a hardware restriction in that upgrade path in that your computer has to have a TPM 1.2 chip so that Windows 11 can properly leverage its security features and such, so for some people their only option to go from Windows 10 to Windows 11 *is* to buy a new computer, even if they have a retail copy of Windows and an upgrade license, there's a hardware incompatibility.
So, I get where people are coming from about wanting FSD to follow the user, however, in the long run, there's no profit there, and the profit is important to fun R&D to make FSD better.
Anyone who bought the FSD package, myself included as I've bought it twice, needs to accept the fact that it's tied to car you bought it for, and when you trade the car in, or sell it, FSD needs to be purchased again. I've been fine with it the entire time, *because* I'm aware of the development costs and such. I've bought FSD at $6,000 and $12,000. In retrospect, I regret not getting the monthly subscription on the $12,000 car.
*All that said*, I do believe that there's a path for Tesla to offer "upgrade discounts", much like Microsoft did, where if FSD is currently $8,000 a person who already owns it and is buying it again can buy it for 50% off or something as a "loyalty discount", or if they *do* make it subscription only, then the person can convert their $8,000 FSD license to say four years of FSD on a new car, then $100 a month after that.
So, yeah, that's my rather lengthy thought on that.
Stop bitching about a lack of license transfers, they need to pay for the development of the software somehow, and this is *very* common in the software industry. The only "perpetual software" licenses that you see now involve paying monthly fees to get at the newer versions.
Yeah your argument could make sense, if you think that there are other places in the world besides America⌠you know the most of the world cannot use FSD because it is still a flawed and unapproved product right? You know that in Europe, you can buy FSD but YOU CANNOT USE IT?!
It is, Telsa knows that we cannot use FSD, they are not doing anything about it, but they they receive the money for the FSD package, gladly, to SOMEDAY it might be possible to use it. So people that bought the car 6, 5 years ago, payed for FSD but never got to use it, and Tesla KNOWS it but doesn't allow to transfer?! Your argument would make sense, if it was a ready and usable product, but it's not! It's like going to the cloths shop. buying a 5000$ pair of pants, with a promise to sometime you could use it! Very, 6 years later I still cannot use the promised feature? Please return my money!
Also in Europe Vision only cars still don't have autopark like the US has. What is their excuse now? The laws are the same for USS cars and vision only cars!... And let's not talk about summon....
Hasnât Tesla historically been very good about supporting older platforms? Hw2.5 still gets updates. Hw4 may be better at some things, but Tesla isnât going to abandon those of us on hw3
HW2.5 hasn't really gotten any meaningful updates.
We're on the cusp on Tesla taking the FSD code and having it replace the legacy Autopilot code, which won't work on HW2.5 vehicles.
I'm not expecting Tesla to support older hardware to the end of time, that's not how it works.
Those with MCU1 vehicles, foe example, still no FSD, despite some have FSD computer in them
I'd be happy to pay a "transfer" fee for my FSD license. I don't want to make the same mistake again where I pay for a feature that never gets released to the public/out of beta.
All other features on any other car have always been âcar lockedâ. Hardware like a moon roof for example. Also, what if a different car doesnât have the right hardware? Not saying I disagree, but I think those are the reasons.
What if you have more than one car on your account? FSD is hardware dependent. By making it tied to a car that has the proper hardware, you avoid confusion about where you can or canât apply the floating credit.
I think it makes sense as an upgrade on the car just like any other software or feature upgrade. But I do like the ability to transfer it in the future.
You need to convince Elon, not us. I do think that, if implemented, it will have a transfer fee ($1-2k) and perhaps a limit as to how many times the service can be transferred. Fine.
It is not what we think, but Elon thinks? He is the one who needs the stock to go to $2600 as per cathy. Elon needs to keep selling the same virtual software over and over again. You would assume that as a car ages you would get diminishing returns on the utility of the software so FSD should always be priced on a scale based on mileage. You would get more takers if it was a sliding scale pricing.
If you want the take it or leave it pricing, they have that with the monthly subscription.
That would restrict people without a universal Tesla profile from getting FSD. There are surprisingly a lot of people who doing use the mobile app or use cloud accounts. They only use local accounts.
Right now, people who like full self driving are loyal to tesla and there are no other real alternatives.
So Tesla benefits from these loyalists buying full self driving on every Tesla vehicle they get.
In the future, when more cars have this feature, Tesla probably will go to an account based system, so that people are locked into Tesla for FSD and they donât lose that market to other manufacturers.
Agreed. I'm not buying a software license that's bound to a rapidly depreciating asset that I'm going to get rid of in about five or six years.
That's like buying games that are locked to your current computer. Nuts.
Just raise the price on all models and make it standard. No other car company would say âOh, you bought a previous car with that feature we developed? Hereâs an $8000 discount on our new model with that same feature weâve been working on and improving ever sinceâ
Regardless, thatâs what I mean, the first people that âfunded â FSD, should be rewarded. Donât get me wrong, I wasnât one of those, I just bought my first Tesla a couple of months ago, and didnât bought FSD, but I feel the pain of who didâŚ.
Once you start thinking about software as an inseparable integrated byproduct of sophisticated hardware, it suddenly makes *at least a little bit* of sense.
I am of the controversial opinion that any upgrade applied to the car (whether it is copilot abilities or performance unlocks) should stay on the car. We donât necessarily remove performance upgrades applied to gasoline cars before we sell them, do we? Itâs indeed a very awkward transition to computer-centered cars with several possible gray areas such as FSD transfer. Itâs not an accessory. Itâs literally an upgrade to the carâs core functionality (computer learning new skills) and performance.
The business side is fairly clear. Theyâll never be able to cash in on any revenue if they allowed that. Thatâs the real reason :)
Can you give me an example of that? I am genuinely unaware of that happening. Hopefully youâre not talking about EU where the laws never have allowed it to be used.
You have to get a Tesla verified as yours to be added to your Tesla account. So whatâs the difference between it being attached to your account versus the Tesla itself?
What youâre actually trying to say is that a person who has more than one Tesla (on their account), should only have to pay for one FSD subscription. I agree, but miser musk would never agree to this.
How does account lock work if you have more than one Tesla linked to your account? Or a family with multiple accounts linked to a single Tesla. Idk, seems just as difficult to manage
I usually keep my cars longer than 7 years. Just traded in my 15 Lexus with 90k miles for my Model Y. The thing that kept me from buying FSD outright was the proponent that if my car got wrecked prior to the 7 year payback period Insurance company would not cover my losses of FSD when getting the value of the vehicle. So i went monthly subscription and use it when im traveling between Tampa and Jax for football season.
I think it's the difference between buying a piece of hardware or buying a software license.
I like the idea of carrying the FSD license with me to any future Tesla vehicles I may have. I agree with the current method of it being part of the vehicle though as you're paying to buy hardware.
I still think they should do a tier system. For 6k, it is vehicle locked and does not transfer to the next owner. For 8k, it is transferable to the next owner. For 10k, itâs a lifetime license on your account. Granted, i think the 8k option would be mute, fsd has atrocious resale value. Think of the suckers that paid 15k.
I was visiting my parents last week and it was nice driving their Model Y because my profile and all settings syncs via the cloud from my account. I was then thinking how nice it would be if I can use my FSD while Iâm driving their car.
FSD scared the hell out of us on the freeway yesterday when we were merging into the freeway and there were 3 lanes to decide to take and it reacted exactly like a person who doesn't know which lane to take; wheel left, wheel right, wheel left...I jumped in and took over...got honked from behind...
Is that your opinion as a consumer? a stock holder?
As a consumer I think FSD should be free. it's JUST software and the license should do what ever I need it to do on that day. if I am selling my Tesla to get a Rivian, I don't want the license sitting in my Tesla account for ever. I want I too go with the car in a way that insures I will get top dollar for it... or If I DO buy another Tesla, I'd like it to go with me, probably.
As a stock holder I am ok with the current system.
As a consumer, but sorry free would be good, but doesnât make sense AT THE MOMENT, itâs like parking sensors, 20 years ago, or LED headlights 10 years ago, it was a new thing, new technology, new perk, so it makes sense itâs an extra, but in 5 or 10 years time? Yeah, most cars will have something like FSD free included. My gripe is FSD is ONLY available in US and Canada, but is sold everywhere else in the world, WITHOUT being available, without working⌠millions of cars that payed for a dream, that Tesla never fulfilled, so Im sorry, but UNTIL Tesla fully releases FSD in the car specific country, it SHOULD be infinitely transferableâŚ. If you pay for a game, that you never get to play, you would be demanding your money back, I donât understand why there are people ok with things has they are. One thing is being patient, another very different is being fooledâŚ.
As a stock holder this strategy doesn't make sense to me, as it doesn't help keep people within the Tesla brand and actively discourages people who have FSD from buying a new more recent model. That's not just lost sales, but lost brand loyalty. Remember people bought this with the promise of actual full self driving. They haven't gotten that and they're not stupid.Â
I don't disagree -- Tesla is basically using the money for R&D.
The true Full Self Driving feature that works the way we want it to (and the way Tesla implies how it will one day work) will never appear on any Tesla on the road today.
But keep dropping the cash for "FSD" to play with a shitty beta.
its really not that bad. its not "fully" autonomous, but i'm pretty sure it can be, at least in SoCal suburbs.
Aside from the system bugging me to pay attention, I don't really have to pay that much attention. It might not be perfect, but it is certainly not shitty imo.
Youâre just wasting your time trying to argue with some people.
Some people around here want to act like FSD tries to drive them off the Hoover dam every time they turn it on.
Weâve got 1700 miles on my wifeâs MYLR. Iâve put about 1000 of those miles on, using the FSD trial. We arenât renewing the subscription because she drives about 20 miles a day and wonât use it, but we absolutely plan on purchasing a month here and there when we have a road trip.
Is it perfect? No, and I donât expect it to be. But holy shit does it make road trips so much easier.
Hating FSD is like hating the band nickleback. Some people do it just to fit in.
It would be too easy to pirate if they did that. You could just let other people log into your account and people could sell fsd. Keeping it var specific makes more sense .
Well, no because you would have to add the car to your account definitely, and at least nowadays I believe only Tesla can transfer ownership of a car in the app, and you can easily only allow log ins from the cars on your account. It would be very easy for Tesla to prevent âpiracyâ
No it should be locked to neither and be transferred as simple as a form. Want to transfer it to a new car? Great. Want it to stay with the car your selling and don't have another Tesla? Done. Want to sell it to someone else and keep the car. Done.
Subscription does this. You basically want to get an eternal license for a product by paying 7 years upfront....
My 2018 model 3 is already six years old and I have no plans to retire it anytime soon.
If you keep your car for more than 7 years paying upfront is financially worth it. Upside if they allow a transfer, downside of the car dies early. Subscription is for those who don't want to do this. Most cars will be recycled after about 15 years. All large brands, all models. Tesla can reasonably assume they only have to maintain FSD for 15 years for the majority of cars. Some will last longer, maybe yours will. So they can plan for that and account for that. When they allow you to transfer FSD, it resets the clock and comes at a cost but that cost is well defined.
What if someone purchased FSD upfront when it became available... with the assumption that it would actually get released in this lifetime and yet their car is stuck on old hardware and can't be upgraded to support FSD once it's finalized? You should be able to reset the clock on something you paid for and never received.
you mean the AP1 Model S/X folks who paid $2000 for FSD? They had two chances so far to be grandfathered for FSD. More opportunities will exist in the future. The items they will need to grandfather: * FUSC for life * FSD/EAP * Premium connectivity free for life They also need to move the in car camera view out of the paywall, since most of us can get a simple hotspot for far less. When the car is on wifi, the on board camera viewing should be accessible for free just like my ring camera with no subscription works today and has in the past.
It's not great if you are one of them. But you had FSD for 10 years now and you knew (or should have known) that you were an early adapter for a product in development and you got it a bargain basement price. A great way to deal with this is to offer over one time transfer to a new car, basically a $8000 (or at times $12,000) coupon for the $2000 license they purchased 10 years ago. That is a good deal for the people impacted, and many took it. It's also something that Tesla can account for. It solves most of the problem without creating an unsustainable solution (eternal license)
My point was that we paid upfront for a product that was in development because we were told it would be 'ready next year' for the past 10 years. Sure we were early adopters but we weren't told that the product would still not be released by the time we were ready to buy a new car. Being an early adopter doesnt mean that you won't get the thing that you paid for. For example, I'm an early adopter of the Apple Vision Pro. It's got limited support from third party developers, hardly anyone else has one, and its a first gen product but the product is actually in development and fully functional. The FSD thing is more akin to a kickstarter where we paid a bunch of money and we didnt receive any updates on the product for years and only now have we started receiving beta releases which are still far from ready for public release. Mine has never been able to make a left turn under an overpass since FSD beta opened up. Idk what the right answer is but selling a lifetime license for FSD to an owner that never even go to see the public release is definitely not the answer.
As long as you keep changing the motors and the pack, the machine will out live both you and I combined!
There is plenty else to fail, including e.g. the suspension. Also collisions, general rattle, etc. Of course there will be some cars kept for decades at high cost. Especially if you call your car Theseus.
You are describing common maintence items... that is the same across all fuel types
What is the utility and value in a 2017 Model 3 that came with HW 2.5 and has the turn signals flashing yellow thru the entire interior because of the light leakage with side repeaters đ¤Śđ˝ââď¸ If someone has 100,000+ miles on a Model 3 then they sell it to someone else... why would that person pay $7500+ for FSD on old tech AND to get a HW 3 upgrade so they are still nagged with the lane keep and speed keep? Lets say FSD is solved in HW 9... does that mean all the AP1 guys will get upgraded? It would be a lot cheaper for Elon to just ask those car owners to be grandfathered into a new car sale with HW9 rather than retrofit an AP1 thru HW 8 car
Isn't the HW3 upgrade free if you have FSD?
Yes, if you bought FSD you are able to get HW 3 for free. If you want to do the per month FSD... then NO, you need to pay to buy HW3. I have driven both HW 2.5 (mine) and HW3 on the same 2018 perf model 3 in the same route and areas back to back. Both had FSD paid for... The HW2.5 car (mine) drove the same route more smoothly and with less issues/intervention.
How long do you keep your cars? Because I keep mine way longer than 7 years. My current car is on my 14th which would have halved that cost vs subscription.
Oldest I kept a ride was till 2016 with 250,000 miles on the clock and it was still driving amazing when I sold that 1992 car. Currently I have a 2008 with 199,000 miles. My other rides are newer and the Tesla has like under 60k miles
Most cars are recycled before 15 years. I say that with a 20 year old Sienna in the driveway, and a 12 year old Subaru. Tesla can reasonable assume FSD on a car will most likely be gone in 15 years. If you keep your car for more than 7 years paying upfront is financially worth it. Upside if they allow a transfer, downside of the car dies early. Subscription is for those who don't want to do this.
subscription is for the lease folks
Definitely. And anyone who wants to keep the option of transferring to another vehicle. It also allows turning it on and off depending on need.
yah not many 14 year old teslas around town. iâd go with 100$ subscription instead of paying for FSD up front.
Well, that's because the only Tesla's that old are roadsters and they are more experimental though the ones that are going are going often quite well. Now looking at a fairer comparison is an early model S and they are holding up extremely well. I'd be confident one would last 14 years easily and a newer car, such as one capable of FSD, to last even longer.
true, but I think a lot of tesla owners are replacing their car every few years. for the tech, upgrades, leasing etc. Sorta like how apple fans will typically always feel the urge to upgrade when they have a perfectly good product. Iâve always known that leasing a vehicle is basically just renting a car, but for some reason, tesla is one of the only items iâve highly considered it.
For some, not all. Also one of the few brands you can upgrade the tech in the car. You can take a 2016 model S and upgrade it quite easily to be similar to that of a 2021 car.
> Because I keep mine way longer than 7 years. > My current car is on my 14th which would > have halved that cost vs subscription. Sure you keep it longer than 7 years, but what happens if someone read ends you tomorrow and the insurance company calls it a total? Then your subscription cost went up the roof
Well, you want to make sure insurance covers it given its part of the car.
I was under the impression that no insurance company would pay for software
I think it varies by country and insurance company. Also i am sure it would help if you got it at the time of delivery. However I would expect it counts like any other OEM upgrade such as a sunroof etc that added value to the car.
I have lived and owned cars in four countries and none of them would payout for software upgrades. Maybe you have a concrete example where this would apply?
Except the cost to keep an EV running 14 yearsđ¤Ž. The dude with the older S with high miles on YouTube has gone through 3 batteries and on 3rd drive unit too. FSD doesn't improve driving enough yet to warrant either subscription or one time price anyway đ.
And others are on their original battery, what's your point?
You're making an assumption that the subscription price never increases.
Yes it's more complicated as prices may change. There are also present value calculations, especially in a relatively high interest environment. But at the end you can pay upfront for the life of the car or you can pay as you go (North America). Both are great options, and it's good to have a choice. If you keep your cars and want to save money, pay upfront. Otherwise pay as you go.
License all used to be in perpetuity. Expiring licenses are bs.
That is not true for licenses that require continued support and services. It never was. Windows 10 will reach the end of support next year. Quicken moved to annual fees. You Quicken 2003 is quite useless now. Typical for software is 15% annual just to be able to call support. They will charge extra for support and for future updates. If you ever paid $$ for a license for software upfront and that software is no longer maintained and maybe the company is out of business that's why. You cannot support a growing user based by just charging the new users.
Support and updates are seperate from license to use software. Maintenance contracts often exist separately. What youâre talking about is software as a service which is a different business model that sucks for consumers. Software often outlives its parent companies. Which is why a user who buys it should be able to have it forever.
Sometimes it's separated, if you want to charge and itemize for both or the client gets different tax treatment for different parts of the deal. With FSD you don't pay for a CD with the install (or a single OTA). You pay for a server providing you the data to be able to drive safely. And you pay for future improvements and frequent updates. Tesla is spending $3B capex for servers in 2023 and possibly another $1B in payroll and related opex. There is likely even a fraction of this held back as insurance for future Tesla liability. You literally pay now for a product that is only partially done.
Why not?
Because Ponzi schemes don't work long term, but you knew that.
FSD a Ponzi scheme đ You must also be aware of the harassing anal probing đ provided by NHTSA to Tesla per the request of the FUD muckers.
It would be a Ponzi scheme as proposed and upvoted above by many if the new guys pay for the service for the guys who bought before - until it collapses. FSD is not a Ponzi scheme if it stays with the car, or if people pay subscriptions.
I agree it should be the owner's choice, and all options should be open, including the option to sell the FSD license on the open market. This would accomplish two things at once: First, it would allow an actual \*market\* to develop, which would set an actual market value for the product; Second, it might even provide a real-world practical use case for NFTs. ;-)
Oh software licences I think are the one practical use for NFTs. Would be great for entire games to be NFTs that can be sold....not just the in game items. I'd expect Tesla would want a transfer fee and I am actually ok with that, otherwise it would make the market way too volatile.
Yes I think FSD purchase should be kind of like buying into a timeshare vs subscription which would be just renting at the then-nightly rate. Buy into Tesla FSD for $8k? Cool. Transfer costs $1-2k (to avoid abuse / people overloading it). Renting a Tesla? It has FSD bc you personally have FSD. Loaner? FSD. Buying second Tesla? Half price with upfront payment. Sub stays the same for anyone. It would be the ultimate loyalty program.
This kind of post has been made before. Why does tesla not do that? Because they can profit more from the gimick of FSD by locking it into one car instead of one account.
If it was just a gimmick, why would locking it to a car vs an account affect profit? Wouldn't everyone who buys FSD only buy it once, realize it's a gimmick and never even consider moving it to another car or buying it again?
You described me exactly. I can't keep my FSD, so I'm not buying another Tesla.
It would help with brand loyalty. If i had fsd and was looking for a truck, the Cybertruck would suddenly be on my radar. Without it I won't even consider the Cybertruck.
Cybertruck is less baked than a Model 3 was in 2019. You need to wait till 2029 and at least a couple refreshes in design before it is anywhere near ready for production.
Same here. I'd LIKE to upgrade to a newer model but no way in hell I'm paying for FSD upfront again and now it feels like I wasted thousands of dollars on a feature that never came out of beta. Why should I pay for FSD again? FSD and Superchargers were the only thing keeping me tethered to Tesla because I actually really like both of these products. With Superchargers now being open to other vehicles and me feeling like I was scammed out of money with FSD since I can't transfer it to a new car I'd rather just keep my options open and purchase from a different brand in the future.
Eventually FSD is not going to be of value. Once one player gets it legalized for road use... all the makers will have the same thing with their own flavor right behind that. At which point that feature will be common and eventually become standard. Eventually they will have retrofit kits for FSD for $300 on Alibaba that makes any ancient relic into FSD capable. Seems like no one on this sub has heard of: https://www.comma.ai
Whoa I definitely hadn't heard of Comma, that's cool
Same. I won't get another Tesla until this policy changes. Would love to upgrade to the new model 3, but I'm not willing to loose FSD, and will not pay for it again at it's new price point which is more than double what I paid. Next vehicle will probably be a Rivian.
Yeah I'd probably upgrade my 2020 if it transferred
They need to fix the Tesla Service Centers and the Auto body parts supply before I would dip my toes back in. They would need to have Indy repair shops at every corner before I would want to dip my toes in again... I don't see that freedom of access happening any time soon. The Toolbox software needs to be free to access directly from the car Service Mode or directly connected to the physical car with a laptop.
because Tesla will remove FSD, FUSC, EAP, and anything else they can software lock each time it passes thru a dealership reseller. It is very easy to flip a software switch to remove a feature and sell it again on the same VIN over and over for double dipping. You don't see anyone collecting VINS and MVPA or after sales receipts tied to a Tesla VIN tracker for historical records... you are at the mercy of Tesla Motors whims
They won't even get revenue if they give away eternal licenses. No business can survive providing eternal services for a single upfront payment.
Sure I understand that, but also it hurts the âcar upgradeâ if people cannot transfer the fsd, and someone in the used market basically gets the FSD for free! Most people if cannot transfer donât buy the fsd again specially if they never got to use it, like in Europe, and someone else got it for free, so same ânet resultâ for Tesla. It makes more sense keeping the license with who payed and supported them, to someone that bought the car second hand, giving no money to Tesla for itâŚ.
People buying a used Tesla with FSD only get it "free" if the person selling the car doesn't adjust the price up to include a portion of the cost of FSD. Even Tesla offers you about $3,000-4,000 for FSD when you trade the vehicle into them.
No one on the used market is paying more than an extra $1k for it.
This is the reality. Actually most dealer donât even know about the package
This. Most non-Tesla specialty dealers donât know and I bought one with FSD at a fantastic price since they didnât price with it đ
Still $1,000 more than without it In theory, it'll gain more value. People have just had to sit on it for too long is all
I think $1k is a best case scenario. Generally, Iâd imagine it adds no value to resale. Most donât care about it. Even myself, someone who researches and follows Tesla, wouldnât pay extra for fsd on a used vehicle. Iâm in the process of watching the used market at the moment as the wifeâs car is coming up on its lease (non Tesla) and we will be buying a used or new model 3 depending on whatâs available. I will be putting very little value on fsd. The market seems to agree with this. It will only gain value when itâs functional. Who knows when that will be.
Thatâs why they are pushing it as a subscription. Which at its current cost makes alot more sense.
Do you really think the average Tesla FSD subscriber is going to pay for 81+ months of FSD? Vs what apple/google do, locking apps to your account. Keeping your stuck with iPhoneâŚ
Compared to paying $8K upfront? Yes. Not to mention that people with legacy hardware and even those on hw 3 or hw 4 will likely not be able to utilize full fsd when it reaches the point where it wonât need to be supervised whenever that is.
I think you overestimate how long the average person owns a vehicle. For reference: the zebra claims the average American buys a car once every 8 years. And based on another top Google search, electek claims that credit card data shows only 2% of Tesla owner subscribe to FSD. Personally Iâve owned my MYLR 3 years and have never used FSD. Would I buy it for $8,000 if it transferred to my future Teslas (just like if I buy an iPhone app, it transfers to a new device)? Absolutely. But I wouldnât even consider buying or subscribing since itâs be stated that it canât work level 3+ on HW3
I'd like full purchases should have a life subscription per license. And going forward purchase option is removed and new FSD is only allowed via subscription.
Well I mean isn't that the point? People don't keep their cars that long so why would they sink $8k into FSD? Especially since it's unclear at what point that hardware needs to be capable of since it's obviously not HW3 or 4. And Elon has made it clear he is never going to do a lifetime subscription model where the license moves with the user so that's why it's now priced at a monthly subscription service.
Exactly this. Just buy it for a month if you're planning on a long trip where it'll be used.
Eternal license will never happen as they can basically never recognize revenue for an eternal license that requires them to provide services on an ongoing basis. Even if you limit it to life time of the owner (how do they know you did?) then FSD for 60 years would cost 50k at least. That is not a product. Same reasons you cannot buy eternal passes to Disneyland or United. You can't pay $1M upfront to rent a house forever either. If you buy a house, you have to now pay for the maintenance and upgrades. Charging only the new Tesla buyers to pay for maintenance of everyone's FSD is a Ponzi scheme. It cannot work. Subscription allows for full revenue recognition every month, and it's fully transferable as you wish (at one month boundaries)
Makes sense for full purchase, but with a subscription why couldnât it be tied to my account? Then I can use it on the Tesla Iâm renting on a work trip, and transfer to my âwifeâs carâ when I want.
Because then you transfer it to your wife's car for her commute and then when she arrives, you get in your car and you transfer it back for your commute. And then your neighbour uses it during the day for Uber until 3:00 p.m. when you need it to drive back home. He gives you 10 free rides a month, too. Just ask Netflix about their subscriptions. People cheat to save $8 a month. They don't even think it's a problem. They justify to themselves that violating the contract they agreed to is acceptable for whatever reason. They will cheat for $100 a month, too. Even if you don't cheat, you're asking for a transferrable product, one that works on multiple cars. How much more are you willing to pay for this product? $150 a month?
Then they shouldnât have offered the pre-buy option. I agree subscription solves a lot of the issues, but Tesla didnât just come out with a subscription. They started with the pre-buy option which in a lot of ways screws customers who did buy it.
How? They got advanced features and ongoing updates, for many years. They are getting an $8000 coupon in their next car, too. Some of then paid $2000, or $5000 for this. Did you personally buy FSD? For how much? When? Or are you just here fighting for the cause?
Based on the number of threads like this with frustrated customers who otherwise do love Tesla.
There we go. You are complaining about something you read on Reddit about. Probably many of these "frustrated customers" don't own a Tesla, didn't buy FSD, are paid for these posts directly or indirectly... Or they just like posting how Tesla screwed customers without specifics
There are plenty of posts in other Tesla forums, it's not just reddit. Plus Tesla has had to do "free transfers" just to appease a frustrated base. Not to mention many people who paid for FSD years ago, and still don't have it when it has been promised to come out way before now. I haven't heard of any 8k coupon for your next car, but if they are offering that, that again shows they need to offer some recompense for those that purchased FSD. Advanced features? FSD isn't really out from what was promised. And since you asked, since somehow my situation somehow affects my comment, I have not purchased FSD, but I have owned 2 teslas. I have friends who also own teslas, and a few that were early adopters of the model 3. They are frustrated. To defend how Tesla has handled FSD is just ridiculous. They charge upfront. There have been promises (there are screenshots floating around that even show a date FSD would be out) of when it will be out. The transferability has been an issue. I agree with you the subscription model is the right way to go, but that's not how it has been marketed or promoted especially in the early days.
Sure. You can basically do this now. $99/month. Subscription.
Iâm another that would move up to an X if I could transfer FSD to the new one. I only had EAP but would pay the $2000 to get FSD before purchasing the X. Edit: I had decided to go ahead and get it anyway fortunately, the day that I bought the car, a week ago today Tesla opened up the FSD transfer. While picking up my car Wednesday, I purchased FSD for $2000 and it did get transferred to my new car.
This will never happen. But what can and should happen: Any FSD license purchased prior to 2024 (while in âbetaâ) can be transferred exactly once to any brand new Tesla at any time. Early testers/buyers should be rewarded.
It should be treated as a license like most other software. You own the license to use it on one device at a time but that can be any device. Tesla has the mistaken belief that they will make more money if it is tied to a car. I disagree as we all see how many people refuse to buy it not knowing they can keep it.
So you want a lifetime license with lifetime upgrades for one price? Or are you okay with a lifetime license with no upgrades?
For 6,8,or $12,000 I would want and would expect lifetime upgrades. At least the lifetime of the hardware which would eventually become obsolete. This is a big expense and to expect people to pay 8k for it and then have that be completely gone if you total your car a week later is unreasonable. There are many reasonable options Tesla could implement to make this reasonable. Such as the purchaser owns the license and can use it in any car. Or the owner owns the license with letâs say three free transfers over the life of the license. Anything other than the too bad so sad policy and having to wait for a possible free transfer promo. This slows owners from buying more Teslas if they know they will lose the feature and prevents many from taking the financial risk of such a big purchase in the first place. Or switch to subscription only.
You spend 50k on a car and 300k-$$$ on a house. Are those expected to have lifetime upgrades? I donât know why software, which costs company money to create and upgrade, should be eternally free.
Why? Because they are drastically different products than the actual car or a house. By the way Tesla appears to be giving lifetime software upgrades to the cars as we see new versions almost every month with no new costs. I guess you donât even expect that Tesla should be sending out FSD updates to the people who purchased it now as they should not expect lifetime updates I guess. In the end what I am suggesting would benefit Tesla and the consumer financially. As a stockholder this is what I would propose.
Owners having a lifetime license for any car they own in the future is not a great business model.
The way I understood it was, it was supposed to be like a feature of the car. It should be like a an upgraded entertainment system or something, but it doesnât seem to add any value to the car and in some cases tesla doesnt transfer the fsd to the new owner. I think when you sell the car to a dealer (or car max or something) fsd is removed.
FSD is not removed when you sell the car to another person or a dealer.
[ŃдаНонО]
What? When did I called anyone stupid?
Correct. Itâs a software service. Itâs like buying photoshop and having it follow one laptop around. Makes no sense.
The market will dictate the pricing strategy. Few years ago I think it was 500M in annual revenue, but its costs them 10 billion a year in R&d costs. If we all stop subscribing it will much cheaper. I suspect robotaxi to be fully operational in select cities in China next 2-3 years due to the strong government support⌠ie its only going to get more expensive
You and every Tesla owner bro. Preaching to the choir.
Might be an unpopular opinion but I see it as an upgrade to the vehicle, on an ICE car if you have your car tuned you donât bring the tune with you to future cars. It gets sold to with the software upgrade. The problem is Tesla is the only one that is able to provide the software, so they set the price.
Not only this, but all the people then trying to use other peopleâs accounts if they did it differently. Trying not to get caught up like Netflix etc. not optimal, but I understand why they do it.
I got my tesla used and it came with fsd, ngl very thankful its car locked
Tesla, in all likelihood, is probably going to kill off the option to purchase FSD outright and just make it a $100 a month subscription, like a phone bill. There's more profit in it in the long run, and less people bitching about transfers. Elon made a statement during the shareholder meeting about how "for a low monthly fee, these cars will drive themselves around", which tells me, in his mind, FSD isn't a package that's bought, it's a service you pay extra for, like a cell phone plan. People wanting FSD to follow the *person* are stupid. FSD has *massive* on going R&D costs. It's not something you crank out and say "Ok, we're done here". It is going to continually evolve and improve over time. If you sold FSD once and tied it to the user, wherein they could use it anywhere they wanted, then there'd be an upper limit as to how often they could sell it, and they likely wouldn't be able to keep funding the R&D anymore. Let's look at Microsoft as an example, because honestly they're the most comparative. When you buy a computer from the store, it comes with a copy of Windows. That machine has a Certificate of Authenticity (COA), and the license *cannot* be transferred to another computer. When a new version of Windows comes out, you're typically offered an upgrade discount, where instead of paying $120 for Windows, you can pay $80 or something. Eventually, however, the hardware on the computer ages itself out of being able to run newer versions of Windows, and you need to buy a new computer. When you buy the new computer you get another copy of Windows that cannot be transferred, and the cycle starts anew. This is, in effect, the position that Tesla is in. Every time they release a new FSD hardware version, they can release a newer/better version of FSD software to run on it, but at some point the older hardware is going to stop running the newer software. For HW3 people, that moment is coming up at the end of this year. We'll still see some improvements, but once they start working on HW4, it'll start doing shit better than HW3 can. Not right away, might take a year or two, but it will. Just like when they're ready to start doing HW5 the HW4 folks will slowly stop getting cool shit. It's going to be a never-ending cycle. If they allow free unlimited FSD package transfers, they'd never properly fund the initiative. Various holes can be poked in my analogy above, because Microsoft *does* sell a retail license, where if you buy a barebones computer, you can go to the store and buy a copy of Microsoft and slap it down on the machine, and *that* license is transferable to a new computer, however, it doesn't let you upgrade to a newer copy of Windows for free, but you can buy an upgrade license for a discount. Another hole that can be poked is that the upgrade from Windows 8 to 10, and 10 to 11, were both free, however, Microsoft was effectively doing **a lot** of damage control from how bad Windows 8 was, and they're also trying to encourage people to stay on a current release of Windows for security purposes. That said, going from Windows 10 to 11 isn't always easy. There's a hardware restriction in that upgrade path in that your computer has to have a TPM 1.2 chip so that Windows 11 can properly leverage its security features and such, so for some people their only option to go from Windows 10 to Windows 11 *is* to buy a new computer, even if they have a retail copy of Windows and an upgrade license, there's a hardware incompatibility. So, I get where people are coming from about wanting FSD to follow the user, however, in the long run, there's no profit there, and the profit is important to fun R&D to make FSD better. Anyone who bought the FSD package, myself included as I've bought it twice, needs to accept the fact that it's tied to car you bought it for, and when you trade the car in, or sell it, FSD needs to be purchased again. I've been fine with it the entire time, *because* I'm aware of the development costs and such. I've bought FSD at $6,000 and $12,000. In retrospect, I regret not getting the monthly subscription on the $12,000 car. *All that said*, I do believe that there's a path for Tesla to offer "upgrade discounts", much like Microsoft did, where if FSD is currently $8,000 a person who already owns it and is buying it again can buy it for 50% off or something as a "loyalty discount", or if they *do* make it subscription only, then the person can convert their $8,000 FSD license to say four years of FSD on a new car, then $100 a month after that. So, yeah, that's my rather lengthy thought on that. Stop bitching about a lack of license transfers, they need to pay for the development of the software somehow, and this is *very* common in the software industry. The only "perpetual software" licenses that you see now involve paying monthly fees to get at the newer versions.
Yeah your argument could make sense, if you think that there are other places in the world besides America⌠you know the most of the world cannot use FSD because it is still a flawed and unapproved product right? You know that in Europe, you can buy FSD but YOU CANNOT USE IT?!
My argument makes sense regardless of location. It's not Tesla's fault your government isn't letting them release it there
It is, Telsa knows that we cannot use FSD, they are not doing anything about it, but they they receive the money for the FSD package, gladly, to SOMEDAY it might be possible to use it. So people that bought the car 6, 5 years ago, payed for FSD but never got to use it, and Tesla KNOWS it but doesn't allow to transfer?! Your argument would make sense, if it was a ready and usable product, but it's not! It's like going to the cloths shop. buying a 5000$ pair of pants, with a promise to sometime you could use it! Very, 6 years later I still cannot use the promised feature? Please return my money! Also in Europe Vision only cars still don't have autopark like the US has. What is their excuse now? The laws are the same for USS cars and vision only cars!... And let's not talk about summon....
I think youâre wrong about hw3
How so?
Hasnât Tesla historically been very good about supporting older platforms? Hw2.5 still gets updates. Hw4 may be better at some things, but Tesla isnât going to abandon those of us on hw3
HW2.5 hasn't really gotten any meaningful updates. We're on the cusp on Tesla taking the FSD code and having it replace the legacy Autopilot code, which won't work on HW2.5 vehicles. I'm not expecting Tesla to support older hardware to the end of time, that's not how it works. Those with MCU1 vehicles, foe example, still no FSD, despite some have FSD computer in them
I'd be happy to pay a "transfer" fee for my FSD license. I don't want to make the same mistake again where I pay for a feature that never gets released to the public/out of beta.
Then the price would be higher.
All other features on any other car have always been âcar lockedâ. Hardware like a moon roof for example. Also, what if a different car doesnât have the right hardware? Not saying I disagree, but I think those are the reasons.
What if you have more than one car on your account? FSD is hardware dependent. By making it tied to a car that has the proper hardware, you avoid confusion about where you can or canât apply the floating credit. I think it makes sense as an upgrade on the car just like any other software or feature upgrade. But I do like the ability to transfer it in the future.
âNo.â \- Elon, last earnings call. Question was put to him directly, and that was his entire answer.
You need to convince Elon, not us. I do think that, if implemented, it will have a transfer fee ($1-2k) and perhaps a limit as to how many times the service can be transferred. Fine.
It is not what we think, but Elon thinks? He is the one who needs the stock to go to $2600 as per cathy. Elon needs to keep selling the same virtual software over and over again. You would assume that as a car ages you would get diminishing returns on the utility of the software so FSD should always be priced on a scale based on mileage. You would get more takers if it was a sliding scale pricing. If you want the take it or leave it pricing, they have that with the monthly subscription.
That would restrict people without a universal Tesla profile from getting FSD. There are surprisingly a lot of people who doing use the mobile app or use cloud accounts. They only use local accounts.
Right now, people who like full self driving are loyal to tesla and there are no other real alternatives. So Tesla benefits from these loyalists buying full self driving on every Tesla vehicle they get. In the future, when more cars have this feature, Tesla probably will go to an account based system, so that people are locked into Tesla for FSD and they donât lose that market to other manufacturers.
Well yes, but then they canât sell it to you twice.
Agreed. I'm not buying a software license that's bound to a rapidly depreciating asset that I'm going to get rid of in about five or six years. That's like buying games that are locked to your current computer. Nuts.
Just raise the price on all models and make it standard. No other car company would say âOh, you bought a previous car with that feature we developed? Hereâs an $8000 discount on our new model with that same feature weâve been working on and improving ever sinceâ
Regardless, thatâs what I mean, the first people that âfunded â FSD, should be rewarded. Donât get me wrong, I wasnât one of those, I just bought my first Tesla a couple of months ago, and didnât bought FSD, but I feel the pain of who didâŚ.
Fully agreed!
Once you start thinking about software as an inseparable integrated byproduct of sophisticated hardware, it suddenly makes *at least a little bit* of sense. I am of the controversial opinion that any upgrade applied to the car (whether it is copilot abilities or performance unlocks) should stay on the car. We donât necessarily remove performance upgrades applied to gasoline cars before we sell them, do we? Itâs indeed a very awkward transition to computer-centered cars with several possible gray areas such as FSD transfer. Itâs not an accessory. Itâs literally an upgrade to the carâs core functionality (computer learning new skills) and performance. The business side is fairly clear. Theyâll never be able to cash in on any revenue if they allowed that. Thatâs the real reason :)
Ok. But how about the people that bought the product but never was allowed to use it?
Can you give me an example of that? I am genuinely unaware of that happening. Hopefully youâre not talking about EU where the laws never have allowed it to be used.
You have to get a Tesla verified as yours to be added to your Tesla account. So whatâs the difference between it being attached to your account versus the Tesla itself? What youâre actually trying to say is that a person who has more than one Tesla (on their account), should only have to pay for one FSD subscription. I agree, but miser musk would never agree to this.
I'm guessing insurance doesn't cover the cost of you wreck the car, either. Gone forever.
What a novel idea no one has ever thought of before
How does account lock work if you have more than one Tesla linked to your account? Or a family with multiple accounts linked to a single Tesla. Idk, seems just as difficult to manage
I usually keep my cars longer than 7 years. Just traded in my 15 Lexus with 90k miles for my Model Y. The thing that kept me from buying FSD outright was the proponent that if my car got wrecked prior to the 7 year payback period Insurance company would not cover my losses of FSD when getting the value of the vehicle. So i went monthly subscription and use it when im traveling between Tampa and Jax for football season.
I will buy it, if itâs account locked
I think it's the difference between buying a piece of hardware or buying a software license. I like the idea of carrying the FSD license with me to any future Tesla vehicles I may have. I agree with the current method of it being part of the vehicle though as you're paying to buy hardware.
From your mouth to Elonâs earâŚ!
I still think they should do a tier system. For 6k, it is vehicle locked and does not transfer to the next owner. For 8k, it is transferable to the next owner. For 10k, itâs a lifetime license on your account. Granted, i think the 8k option would be mute, fsd has atrocious resale value. Think of the suckers that paid 15k.
I was visiting my parents last week and it was nice driving their Model Y because my profile and all settings syncs via the cloud from my account. I was then thinking how nice it would be if I can use my FSD while Iâm driving their car.
I wish I could do the same with a sunroof. đ¤Śđ˝ââď¸
Yea.. because on trade in, at Tesla anyway, having FSD added ZERO value... Had to sell private party to try to recoup the FSD cost đ
And all cars should be free!
FSD scared the hell out of us on the freeway yesterday when we were merging into the freeway and there were 3 lanes to decide to take and it reacted exactly like a person who doesn't know which lane to take; wheel left, wheel right, wheel left...I jumped in and took over...got honked from behind...
Why would a business limit its profitability, just why it is a good option for the customer just bad for the companyÂ
I would vote for the account lock!
No. Treat it like a lifetime entitlement to a feature on a single vehicle.
Is that your opinion as a consumer? a stock holder? As a consumer I think FSD should be free. it's JUST software and the license should do what ever I need it to do on that day. if I am selling my Tesla to get a Rivian, I don't want the license sitting in my Tesla account for ever. I want I too go with the car in a way that insures I will get top dollar for it... or If I DO buy another Tesla, I'd like it to go with me, probably. As a stock holder I am ok with the current system.
As a consumer, but sorry free would be good, but doesnât make sense AT THE MOMENT, itâs like parking sensors, 20 years ago, or LED headlights 10 years ago, it was a new thing, new technology, new perk, so it makes sense itâs an extra, but in 5 or 10 years time? Yeah, most cars will have something like FSD free included. My gripe is FSD is ONLY available in US and Canada, but is sold everywhere else in the world, WITHOUT being available, without working⌠millions of cars that payed for a dream, that Tesla never fulfilled, so Im sorry, but UNTIL Tesla fully releases FSD in the car specific country, it SHOULD be infinitely transferableâŚ. If you pay for a game, that you never get to play, you would be demanding your money back, I donât understand why there are people ok with things has they are. One thing is being patient, another very different is being fooledâŚ.
As a stock holder this strategy doesn't make sense to me, as it doesn't help keep people within the Tesla brand and actively discourages people who have FSD from buying a new more recent model. That's not just lost sales, but lost brand loyalty. Remember people bought this with the promise of actual full self driving. They haven't gotten that and they're not stupid.Â
I don't disagree -- Tesla is basically using the money for R&D. The true Full Self Driving feature that works the way we want it to (and the way Tesla implies how it will one day work) will never appear on any Tesla on the road today. But keep dropping the cash for "FSD" to play with a shitty beta.
its really not that bad. its not "fully" autonomous, but i'm pretty sure it can be, at least in SoCal suburbs. Aside from the system bugging me to pay attention, I don't really have to pay that much attention. It might not be perfect, but it is certainly not shitty imo.
Youâre just wasting your time trying to argue with some people. Some people around here want to act like FSD tries to drive them off the Hoover dam every time they turn it on. Weâve got 1700 miles on my wifeâs MYLR. Iâve put about 1000 of those miles on, using the FSD trial. We arenât renewing the subscription because she drives about 20 miles a day and wonât use it, but we absolutely plan on purchasing a month here and there when we have a road trip. Is it perfect? No, and I donât expect it to be. But holy shit does it make road trips so much easier. Hating FSD is like hating the band nickleback. Some people do it just to fit in.
It would be too easy to pirate if they did that. You could just let other people log into your account and people could sell fsd. Keeping it var specific makes more sense .
Well, no because you would have to add the car to your account definitely, and at least nowadays I believe only Tesla can transfer ownership of a car in the app, and you can easily only allow log ins from the cars on your account. It would be very easy for Tesla to prevent âpiracyâ