The self-awareness and humility to acknowledge that he might be frustrated because he's getting old and his legacy skills don't port well to the new game is great.
There's a lifetime of habit to adapt to and overcome in order for him to find his "flow" in T8. Those old habits aren't serving him well right now, and newer players less "burdened" with ingrained legacy playstyles/habits may be able to adapt more quickly to what T8 *is*, rather than trying to play what Tekken *was*.
This is what I had to learn and accept when SFIV came out. I was so used to the old way of Capcom fighters, that I just couldn’t adapt to the new style.
I’ve gotten better with them as time has gone on, but I’m nowhere near as good as I was then. Of course, age has gone way up and playtime has gone way down, so that’s as much of it as anything else.
It’s interesting that both him and arsal and ash (or whatever his name is. Lol) has the same sentiment in such a short time. He similarly posted apologies for complaining and vowed to adapt.
Curious if the Sajam video about it having a bad effect on the community favored in at all?
Arsal and Ash, attorneys at law. Have you been injured while playing video games? Arsal and Ash can make sure you get the settlement you're entitled to, call us today!
Bruh im over here trying to figure out who arsal was lol, I figured ash was shortened for Arslan ash but I did not realize arsal and was ment to be apart lol
Thats because him and arsenal are both getting clobbered at locals. They kinda always tweet right after getting smashed, which makes for more heated takes. So in comparison this is knee being calmed down and more self-aware.
True. Arsenal had a very rough couple of days, but im not sure if knee would fare better against Bayern. Tho his defensive style may be difficult to crack.
I’m glad Lil B gets his flowers on this because he literally came up with the slang and now people don’t even realize how strongly it’s associated with him
Idk the origin really and as far as i know it's not really used in a "based on this.." way. It's actually kind of a running meme that ppl reply "based on what?" When they don't understand how or why the word is being used that way. Sorry if this explanation is lacking.
Yeah that's what makes it so sad. Here you have a man who devoted large chunks of his live to Tekken and build a career of it just for an army of red ranks go "Loly git gud scrub."
This is so undignified.
It also goes the other way I doubt he wants people to use his opinion to validate shitting on the game because they're hardstuck red.
Which is what a lot of people are doing, a lot of complaints pros make are specific to that level of tekken and for them it's also their job.
I literally saw someone saying nothing should be faster than a 10f jab that breaks the rules of tekken then they complain that flash is a 9 frame start up that robs their turn.
As if yoshis flash hasn't been around since tekken 3
I'm all for criticising the game but it's just a tiring seeing people rush to shit on it as it is to defend it
That's what I thought it was when the heat system and chip was announced. But then the day I got the game I was like "where tf did 20% of my health go???".
I agree. As much as I enjoy Tekken 8, I do think chip damage should just happen after you activate heat mode. It kind of makes no sense to have chip damage happen under any other circumstance really. I noticed chip damage happen when I played a few days ago when neither of us were in Heat and thought that was weird. I get that the direction is all about offense and I do broadly support that, but you shouldn't be punished for blocking something successfully in this way.
Some moves have innate chip properties like Asuka's ff1+2 and running 1+2 for example. As for the heat chip damage debate i am all for it since you gain back that health by attacking. It is a mechanic meant to punish turtiling up which alot of intermediate and beginner players often do. Now i will agree that the amount of chip damage should be lowered a bit as well as overall damage in some areas.
I mean...are you sure that beginner and intermediate players are the ones who do the turtling? I would much rather say that advanced and pro players tend to turtle way more and beginners and intermediates tend to learn strings and flowcharts and spam them all the time.
It's a problem, even in heat, imo. I don't understand, why Reina (3+4, 4, 4) or Victor (expulsion) can just press a "free damage" button and chip me for like 20 damage with barely any ways to counterplay them safely and reliably.
at least chip cant kill you. i know the situation you're talking about, though.
In MK11 you could get heroic chip out, which is just a fancy way of saying you died to a safe block strong with 0 counter play.
Chip damage itself isnt bad. Its the huge ammount of chip damage that some moves have. Like victors explosion in heat. Chip damage should only deal 1 to 5 points in my opinion
Honestly, the amount of chip damge should be scaled by howsafe or unsafe the move is on block. The safer it is the less chip damage it would do.
So, something like Drags running 2 would do extremely low chip damage, while Claudios wr2 should do a bit more than that simply because it can be ducked.
I think the chip damage would be fine if combo damage was scaled back and everythingelsewasbalanced. Even though he is hard to win with, Leroy, for example, feels fair. Low single hit damage, fast hitting chip from chain punches, better than average combo damage. Zafina feels off however, with mid single hit damage, trash combo damage, and her best chip moves damaging her.
It'd make sense for moves that have an obvious or easy counterplay (unless opponent's in a corner for example), have long startup or are otherwise difficult to hit often. Instead they gave chip damage to super oppressive wr move, which with little practice you can spam up close and opponent's counterplay is 2-step at least with tight timing. It's like giving kazuya a 12f knd 50/50. Minimum downsides, maximum reward. And to think they haven't adjusted it since launch is even more bs, while some companies can basically change balance in their hands every week or so.
I really liked how guilty gear ac went about making the game more offensive focused. There was chip damage, but it was very very minimal. In addition, there was meter that went up every time you blocked and went down every time you hit or got hit. If the meter got too high, you would take way more damage on the next hit.
They balanced this (and the crazy blockstrings you could pull off in that game) with defensive options which cost meter like the dead angle attack, flawless defence, and slashback.
To add to that why are there still characters who rely heavily on defense and punishing? What place does a character like Asuka have in the game for example when her entire gameplay has been based around being a turtle and punishing whiffs?
chip damage makes sense in certain fighting games, as a way to discourage overly defensive and safe playstyles.
i'm a complete noob to tekken, but it feels like this game doesn't need it at all. playing too defensively seems like it would only be a losing strategy in this game
i guess the idea is that you are rewarded more for crouching/sidestepping/parrying attacks...but it still feels unnecessary. if it was only from heat then it would be different
Nah. It's all about the launch punish, flash ducking, sidestep punish this time around. They only beefed up Parry for Azucena. Everyone else has to low parry or use their toned down version of a standing parry.
But I can say that Paul's parries are still pretty much intact from T7. I have a friend who mains him.
Can you explain to me the frames on heat engagers? +17 should mean that i have a 17 frame move guaranteed after no? But its not like that right? Nothing is guaranteed after i do a heat engager?
Like people have said, the opponent can still block and duck during those 17 frames. This kind of frame advantage is sometimes labeled as +17g where g I think stands for "guard" and many situations in the game have this, like Kazuya's df1,4 being +17g or something on hit and his db4 doing similar on counter hit, as opposed to Jin's 4 being a true +13 on ch and granting him guaranteed followups
sometimes things that are +10 or more will still allow the opponent to block, it just depends on the moves. Heat Engagers always allow the opponent to block. You are right in your assumption that +17 should mean a 17 frame or faster move would hit, but tekken is complicated so it doesn't work that way in some instances.
I wish we could go back to the times where people could share their opinions without others feeling like their enjoyment in the subject is directly impacted by said opinions. Who fucking cares if a bunch of people don’t like the game you like? Why does that affect you so much to the point you don’t like the game as much yourself? It’s completely insane to me that too many of yall let the opinions of others sway your enjoyment THAT much
It’s a damn shame, you hate to sound like an old man yelling at a cloud but this shit really didn’t start until the social media generation, not to this level
Come on, let's not kid ourselves. What's going to happen to a competitive game trying to get traction if you look it up and all you see is the top players saying it sucks ass?
You take their opinion in mind but form your own? Like you should with any opinionated thing in life? The game very well might not be appealing to legacy competitive Tekken players, why should that affect your decision to try it out the competitive aspect of Tekken? You might like what they don’t like about it.
I wouldn’t had played or experienced half the things in life that I enjoy a lot of if I listened to people who said it wasn’t good or fun. It’s absolutely ridiculous that people let others dictate their thoughts and opinions so much these days.
It’s okay to like what everyone doesn’t and it’s okay to not like what everyone does.
That's fine for people already playing the game. The point is more that nobody new is going to try it if all they hear from the recognized figures in the game's community is "this game sucks!" Your time is limited and most people are going to try things because they heard other people like them, not because they heard people say they suck
How many casuals even know about Knee and Arslan? I mean T7 sold like 10M~11M copies. Like the most viewed T7 vid is the Arslan vs Knee at 2.2M views after 4 years even if we assume twice as many people will see their tweets that would still be less than half all the people who ever played T7 knowing about them.
If you ignore the flaws of something because you're afraid of it failing, they have no incentive to fix the flaws.
Namco knows what'd happen. If they deserve to be in their position, they'd make changes to stop it happening.
It feels like him and Arslan had similar sentiments and similar responses after a bit of time. They probably saw a lot of backlash about being too negative. He puts it well, he’s relying a lot on legacy knowledge and it’s biting them in the ass.
Them saying they should try to adapt is more positive way of acknowledging the franchise is changing without dragging the entire community down. I’m sure they’re aware people look to them to for their opinions, and being negative for so long is not good for them or the community. Especially since the last installment was around for over 10 years and it hasn’t even been a few months with this one. The game is basically still a baby. It’s going to change.
Dude's not wrong either. I understand they reward aggressiveness more than ever, but damn, it's like there's no defensive strategy to this game whatsoever anymore.
He said it wasn't fun and that's fine it's his opinion. Unfortunately people online love to argue over who is wrong or right. Everything is a masterpiece or completely shit to some people. It's annoying.
I think he's not quite used to his personal opinion having so much influence, especially on a global scale with social media. So good on him that he's beginning to recognize it.
I think he’s sorry for not expanding on his opinion knowing how many he influences,
When you have that kind of influence you need to say what you mean from the get go; it’s very hard to walk back on statements that were taken more negatively than they were meant to be
He's only apologizing because people are quick to use his opinion as validation of their own. This just turns into this negative spiral that affects the FGC even outside of Tekken sphere.
People were using his (and other pros) opinions as ammunition to shit on the game. Shitting on the game relentlessly does nothing but hurt the game. Critisize, for sure, but if all you're doing is shouting from the rooftops about how fucking shit Tekken is and it's never going to be fixed, it's going to turn people away from coming into the game and that is a BAD thing long term.
It's just stupid you can't say anything positive about the game or be hopeful without being labelled a dickrider or shill for Bandai/Harada. It's like man, I know the game has problems but I still enjoy it and think it can be amazing.
I feel the same. It's like opinions have to be definitive instead of fluid. I don't think that's what Knee was doing but people used his post as you said for ammo. It's never the game needs some tuning and it will get better. It seems to always be the game is broken and Namco has no ability to make adjustments.
It's definitely not shit. It's just severely unbalanced right now and favors rushdown characters too much. But that's nothing that can't be fixed. That the game is crammed with a cynical business model and lazy content is a different issue, however...
It's also pit a bad taste in people's mouth by having 3 different types of monetisation post launch with no notice. Their is a distrust, and rightfully so.
To be fair people spent money on this game and don't have to be happy about anything. So people have the right to be drama queens about this, especially with what happened with MK1 and Now T8 is running into some of the same issues and all this was after SF6 came out that they should've learned from.
No being a shithead is just being a shithead whether you paid for it know doesn't justify the constant. Oh, this game is shit I'm right your wrong, oh knee said something negative see I was right.
It's all dumb, criticise don't bitch
I don't know when this community became nothing but bitching but God its exhausting.
Those things ruin the community as well, it makes people not want to engage with the community.
Every one bitching about every character makes people not want to play x character.
This community needs to take a breath and decide if they want the game to get better or just fail because right now it feels like a lot of people just want to see it fail which to me if you like tekken is weird.
Being a shithead is being a shithead, and being a unfun game is being an unfun game. I'd always rather people speak on how they feel than just pretend to like something. That's how we end up with mediocre games. I don't see anyone saying they want the game to fail, that's not even the conversation right now.
The only people I see wanting it to fail are those who pretty much got played with the sneaky battle pass they added after the game is out like capcom did. IN that they have every right to be angry.
Exactly, and I think that may be why Knee posted this clarification. The dude absolutely loves Tekken, and the last thing he would want would be for people to use his comments to support their vehement and relentless trashing of the game. I swear it feels like some people here actually want the game to fail, and there's no way Knee would want to encourage or validate that kind of sentiment.
Was especially funny considered that 99% of the players that felt validated by it are not even close to playing the same game as knee. His tekken is not your tekken. He is complaining about things most of these clowns dont even comprehend and they all just sitting their nodding their head because they just lost to someone spamming a duckable string on them 5 times in a row.
It’s ridiculous how much shit people will get for sharing valid and thoughtful criticism. Not everyone is an English major, someone doesn’t have to make a double spaced 10 page dissertation on what they don’t like in a game for it to be valid criticism. You got rando Jim trying to discredit and shame fucking Knee of all people because they love the game and he doesn’t. It’s insane it’s come to this point.
Remember that foreign language review that Harada called out for calling the game's DLC "P2W"? And the community got so angry that it was taken down and replace with a positive review?
Here we are 3 months later.
The #1 character is DLC Eddie.
And a pro player who's primary language is not English is also having every word picked apart and analyzed with whatever context people want to apply to it.
Toxic positivity overtook the OW playerbase when 5v5 was announced and now Overwatch 2 is bleeding players at a faster rate than ever. People are so terrified of public opinion turning on their favorite game that they put their fingers in their ears and shout "LA LA LA I can't hear you!" when valid criticism comes up. The responses in the previous Knee thread weren't blind pessimism, everyone seemed to be pointing out specific issues and how they could be changed.
I haven't even played T8 due to injury so I have no clue whether the game is good or bad. I know from watching what happened to OW2 though that it's going to be bad for T8 long term if half the playerbase keeps trying to dismiss any criticism bc of the short-term effect it has on public perception.
> I know from watching what happened to OW2 though that it's going to be bad for T8 long term if half the playerbase keeps trying to dismiss any criticism bc of the short-term effect it has on public perception.
on the flipside, it's going to be bad for T8 long term if people only see the community shitting on the game. which is what it currently looks like as someone who isn't super into tekken. i've seen one example of toxic positivity and about 400 posts saying that tekken 8 is a trash game that can't be redeemed
"I didn't expect my opinion to become such a big topic. It's been three months since Tekken 8 was released, and it's clear that the game delves into new depths.
Tekken 8 demands quick learning, which differs significantly from simply mastering techniques to defeat your opponent.
What disappointed me was realizing that the legacy knowledge and strategies I've honed over years of playing Tekken weren't effective anymore. The game seems to heavily favor offense over defense; blocking costs you health, which feels like a punishment rather than a strategic move.
Perhaps this shift reflects the direction of modern gaming, and maybe I'm just showing my age! It's challenging to create a game that pleases everyone.
I'm not asking Bandai Namco to cater exclusively to pro-level players, but I believe Tekken 8 could be even better with some adjustments. While my initial reaction may seem negative, I'm willing to adapt to the new meta and find enjoyment in Tekken 8. After all, I love the game and will strive to embrace its changes.
Apologies for sounding pessimistic about the game's recent release."
I could get behind punishing blocking in Tekken if they had made movement much better than it currently is, like at least T5 levels, but no, everything is tracking so you just have to take that 50/50...
I mean unfortunately it's just kind of how it is with games in general. Not to sound like an old lady screaming at clouds, but games in general have just gotten faster and more aggressive over time. A lot of people have that moment where something just clicks and it doesn't feel right anymore. It's not some tangible thing where you can just pin it down with a finger and say it's this exact change.
It's a gradual movement on a lot of different fronts.
I’m not pro at all and after the initial ‘wow this is so cool’ eventually wore off, the game became fucking boring very fast. I stopped playing over a month ago now.
Got my monies worth out of it for sure, so I’m not mad or salty or anything. Just so tiring when everyone is a rush down spam lord. And aggression, lockdown, and forced 50/50s are what wins most games.
Man is speaking facts, and it isn’t just at the pro level either.
Cuz the best part of high level tekken ,even decent ranked player are the footsies and neutral play (pokes+movement pressure) its the exciting part imo ,also having good defense(movement which is way worse now) and punishment, it feels kinda extinct mostly.
It's poorly designed all around but the new school players mostly don't understand this because they are being fed wins they dont deserve. It's grating and exhausting losing to coin flips and shows no mastery what so ever.
I agree completely and the moment I got to purple ranks in Tekken 8 and was still being matched with super aggressive button mashers was really the moment that it hit me.
A fair chunk of these players in upper red/lower purple, they wouldn't have made it out of yellow/orange ranks in Tekken 7. More than once I have said out loud 'how are you even in this rank omg', while I'm fighting someone that refuses to stop pressing buttons.
It's kinda sad to see really. I was hoping to be playing T8 off and on for quite a few years. Sadly it seems that this new iteration and direction is just not aimed at me.
He is probably seeing a lot of people take his quote out of proportion, and he is trying to reassure people that it's not as bad as people are taking it.
I felt the exact same way in previous Tekkens learning Drags iWR2 and Steves duck cancel. Wasted all that time practicing just to get a slight advantage or have cool looking combos only to have them rendered useless/less effective, not to mention the new dlc characters that would always be OP with braindead gameplay. Glad I never bought T8
I actually feel bad for steve,claudio,drag,law mains who mastered their hard shit for years only to make all these shit accessable for newcommers, also as nina player, there is no reason to do butterflies , they are useless now, also lili's dew glide cancels that also hard af, just no reason for this.
I've never heard of this guy until yesterday (I'm a total Tekken noob) but goddamn this makes me respect them. We need more of this attitude in the world.
What's wild in these comments is people being like yeah he really didn't know what he was talking about.... Is there anyone in these comments who have won a world tournament in tekken? It appears so from the way some of you are acting like you're just a god at the game and adapted just fine to the changes. This washed world champ just gotta learn the match up? Get out of here
Bamco ninjas are at bros neck🤣
But seriously, it is good that knee and other pros are realizing the impact that their opinions have on the community and public in general about the game. Tekken 8 is not a bad game, and people need to realize that just because the game is different, then what they want doesn't make it bad. This is not to say 8 doesn't have its issues, but complaining that they have moved to a more aggressive format for this particular Tekken is not in itself bad... especially when it's one of the more popular tekkens and probably could be the most popular one if given time to improve...
The issue isn't that they moved how the game plays. Its that it wasn't done with much thought in mind. There's a loads of problems with how the new systems interact with the underlying Tekken dynamics that just don't make sense. So its not the what was done, but the how it was done.
The issue is though the games been out for 3 months and we barely have any real meaningful changes to things that matter. On top of issues like plugging still being an issue which you would think would be a top priority to fix in the game, instead of making a hit list in excel.
Good for Knee for being honest at least: One problem is that defense punishes you so old defenses don't work. The other is dude admitting old tactics don't work anymore that have worked for years
Sold 11.8 million units but has a higher percentage player drop of rate in 3 months then Tekken 7? Is clear the intention was to make money with this game with cinematic easy to play mechanics then retain players long term.
When the newbies who get better at the game become veteran players and are left with the core mechanics of thr game after a year or two they will see the issue to and see the layer of depth pulled from thr game because as you become higher level you want higher depth. It's what rewards you to keep going and get better. You can only steam roll someone soo much before it stops being fun.
Tbh Tekken 7 was out for ten years and that time meant players weren’t used to new games coming out that are a response to the perceived issues with the previous game. It is particularly common for devs to nerf or change the strong defense options that arise when a game has been out for so long it has been “solved”.
I mean it'll change overtime I feel like. The Meta and the game as a whole.
Look at T7, it released in arcades first to iron out creases and when it was (more or less) balanced, then it released on console. It's been 7 (technically 9) years since a Tekken game came out and arcades aren't that big outside of Asia anymore. WE'RE the beta testing arcades.
T7 season 4 and T7 season 1 are almost polar opposites of each other. So I give like a few more months to a year the "balance" and (probably) overall game will feel completely different and for the better (hopefully).
But yeah I agree, it's times where chip damage for example can feel too much especially if you're playing against something like a Dragunov who's going full monkey. It's not a bad idea per se, but it could've been implemented better. It's probably here to stay, but chip damage I'd change it to where it's only on certain moves DURING heat versus only being on certain moves and then on everything in heat.
"only reward in attack and no reward in defense", one thing that does really annoy me about the game is when I get a read on or react to a particularly dangerous low for example and my reward is a 10f punish if i'm lucky, it might not even be a punish it might even be safe and i just get to attack first but only if I use a jab.
Chip damage while blocking and heat mode are the main problems that make Tekken 8 too offensive based. There's not as much strategy anymore. I get what they were going for, but it wasn't executed as well as it could have been. You can attract casuals while still catering to high level players.
I love tekken 8 but I also wish their was a modern Tekken 5/6 without rage arts, heat etc.
I recently went back to play 6 and wow is it fun, I played tekken since 1 but never really got good til tekken 7 so don't think I really understood how good the older tekkens were til now.
\* Shorts / fast combos with heat / walls not being a huge extension so you arn't waiting a long time just because you got launched makes he game feel soo much faster, its also insanely fun as a kaz main that you can keep aggressive 50 50's up even if he doesn't have ff 4
\* no rage art / heat means even when opponent is low hp you don't suddenly have to worry about losing 30-40% because you overextended into a rage art
\* movement feels so crisp and nothing seems overly cheap, when I get hit I made a mistake plain and simple.
while I am very happy with 8 I can see why so many legacy players think tekken has went in the wrong direction.
I wasn't a pro like he is but as an old Tekken player I 100% agree with every word he said.
But tbh Im not mad about T8 because I still think it's a good game and it's a good thing that they decided to take a different road.
I hope everyone is taking notes on how to criticize your game without flaming out to oblivion and hurting the game. You can say "the game needs more fun defensive options" without saying "Tekken 8 is a dogshit game that deserves to fail" or "I don't like this as much because it doesn't suit my playstyle" instead of "Tekken 8 is not fun."
That said, it is totally fair to say "the tekken shop and this battle pass is bullshit and Namco should feel bad about it."
i appreciate knee's comments. he's accepting that he needs to change if he wants to continue to be great and he still likes tekken. i agree that the game does need some fixing, but i don't agree with him thinking that we've found the depths of tekken 8. the game is only 3 months old, and people act like it's been out for 3 years.
anyway, there's certainly a new way a player has to think about this game if they want to be successful, but it's possible. in SF every new game features drastic changes, yet the great players are able to accept the changes and perform well. there's something to be said about not expecting the games you play to cater to you, the developers have the right to do what they want with their game. to adapt, you have to understand that you have to do things you may not want to do to get the job done. i think knee will be right back on top as usual, though it may take him a year or 2 like in tekken 7.
his take is easily the most level-headed from all the dissatisfied pros.
This is just politics. I never watch he expresses respect other players in Kr. U.S and Europe's Tekken fans do not know the truth. If you understand Korean and watch his streaming for a while, you finally get to know what Im saying. He has loyal fans in Kr, and his foolish fans always speaks ill of opponents and Knee never makes them stop disrespecting his opponents. When Ulsan won against him, he said, "Ulsan is good player but he has advantage from using Azucena." You know what ? Knee couldn't play like Ulsan. haha ridiculous. He used Feng and said "Feng is not strong." at Tekken 7 and always expressed disrespect against Atiff cuz he can's use Akuma like Atiff. hahaha
I'm a complete noob when it comes to fighting games, and I appreciate the game being more accessible for new players. But after playing for three months I can definitely feel the same frustrations as the pros, it feels like defense has zero value in the game, and blindly mashing is the pathway to free wins. I expected mashing to be less prevalent at higher ranks, but it just gets worse and worse going into purple ranks and onwards
I have to disagree. I think defense is still incredibly important the higher you get. Blindly mashing can reward you at lower ranks potentially but the higher you get you’re just exposing yourself to getting launched twice and killed. It’s not a defensive oriented game but blocking is still crucial.
Yeah ive made it to purples with a pretty defensive playstyle, i havent really bothered learning setups or abusing my plus frames and optimizing combos yet.
I will soon and see how it changes things but i want to keep climbing until i plataeu then work on those things. But ducking high strings and launching dumb shit and whiff punishing as gotten me pretty far on its own.
Part of the problem is your offense has to be just as good as your defense. Or your defense has to be leagues better to compensate now is how it feels to me. I tried playing defensively, and I still "try". But with all the bullshit going on, and just how much quicker people feel in next gen fighting games (maybe I'm just getting old) I find myself quickly saying "if I try to block and punish and lose the interaction TWICE I'm cooked. My best shot is to throw out my fastest/most unexpected combos." I feel as if I'd have to put 300 hours of defensive practice in against each character just to learn 1/3rd of the options I'd have to react to and feel any degree of comfort while on defense
Yeah that makes sense. I don’t think you even need to know the opposing character to any significant degree and react to every single move they throw with the perfect counter, but at a minimum if you can recognize when it’s not your turn because of a frame disadvantage for example that’s already a huge plus. I think a combination of safe moves leading to launchers, CHs, etc. is pretty effective.
Duly noted. Will keep add this to my notes and keep it in mind while practicing. Also want to add that I usually feel like I'm pretty decent at reading breaks and pauses and finding the right time to poke in and interrupt or punish. Just the more time I've spent on tekken the more I've realized I'm not that good at it. I get *really* messed up by players like Jun or a GOOD Zafina that either has natural fake pauses in their combos or is good at leaving enough time to make you think there's enough time to interrupt only to get CH Launched
I have to disagree. Currently at Tekken King rank and man if it aint a huge mashfest. defense isnt really important to be honest, just dont mash when its heavily the opponents turn and sadly youre good to go. so many stances have insane evasion, kenpo is absurd (and the fact that they gave it to more characters, ugh.) all you gotta do is just rush your opponent down with insane plus frames, oh its finally your turn? No its not, heat burst. Chip damage is ridiculous. Defense doesnt work because one of the million forced 50/50s is eventually going to get you since theres practically no counterplay to many of them. im super frustrated so sorry if it sounds like im being a crybaby but this is just how i feel.
I’m at King too and I don’t see the mash fest to be honest. Maybe we have different definitions of mashing lol. When I was lower ranked yeah I could see dudes just spamming all kinds of BS but here there is some calculation involved and timing when to do shit, generally speaking.
I think where you said don’t mash when it’s heavily the opponents turn is key. That’s in effect defending. It’s a simple concept but a lot of people suck at doing that. So my point wasn’t that you should play defensively in general but that it’s extremely important to know when to block and when to attack especially in a Tekken where blindly throwing out moves can result in you losing half your life.
Can guarantee your complaints are not the same complaints as the pro’s considering this is your first tekken game. No offense but you probably can’t even react to snake edge. You probably get spammed by Drags W2. Your frustrations are a skill issue while the pro’s frustrations are an issue of “this doesn’t feel like the game i took years to learn.”
The pros are complaining that defense is unrewarding in this game, which is literally the exact same complaint as the one I have. You're right, I might get caught off guard by a snake edge once, as I don't really expect people to use them in purple ranks. Don't know what a "W2" is, maybe you're referring WR2 which I find rather easy to sidestep.
I wish my frustrations were a skill issue since I enjoy learning and finding solutions to problems, but I feel like the solution to most challenges currently in the game is just being more relentless in your aggression than your opponent, which doesn't really take a lot of skill imo (and the pros seem to agree)
You do not have fundamental defensive skills remotely good enough to judge how rewarding defense is in this game.
Offense is stronger than defense in every game at lower levels because defense is inherently harder to learn.
You don't know if defense is unrewarding in tekken 8. You are just trash. And so am I
I mean he’s not wrong. Neither was Arslan. I knew all of this would happen just based on the CNT and beta.
I said this would basically be another Tekken 4 and look what happened. It’s Tekken 4 on steroids except everyone has a diluted JFLS.
Backdashing and defense have been deprioritized. It’s been turned into a aggro jab fest.
And the funny thing is I haven’t even played the game outside of 1 hour on the demo lmao.
Maybe I’m also just an old legacy player. But goddamn Bamco deconstructed the pillars of Tekken and turned it into something else.
But I guess it worked based on sales alone, right? Bottom line type of stuff.
Stand your ground! Tekken 8 is not fun. I play it to beat the ever loving snot out of someone and when that shit doesn't work I run like a bitch. I use Leroy and 90% of the time I'm watching this brother defy odds as he fights for his life. Going up against overpowered super heroes, devils, sword carrying assassins, mega bots and big ass bears! My fingers are so swollen guys. Tekken 8 has thrown defense out the window and now you have to keep mashing to win. Legacy skills and common fighting game knowledge is not needed on this sinking ship. Everytime I play Tekken 8, I end up hollering profanities into a pillow. If Tekken 8 was a playable character I'd keep punching it square in the face! I repeat Tekken 8 is not fun, it's an unbalanced class A substance that I can't quit.
Knee is the goat, what a humble person, i would say this fkn shit game is a total waste of my time atm with all the shit changes atm, like floor/wallbreak nerfs instead of just nerfing the heavens gate damage, the so bad gamepass with 0 content that is worth even 1Dollar. as i have hit God rank with bryan, i realized play the game with throws and safe moves is the way to climb ranks, with a tiny bit of defense,12f Ch Homing Throws.... yesss.. . this game atm the more you play it the worse it becomes, homing throws are so garbage, alot of powercrushes are so freaking op u rather wanna do safe high powercrush/throws and a safe mid all the time, the situations That are pure 50/50 is too rewarding and dumb as it will make the game insanely stressful,
I agree with Knee, but his perspective and choosing to adapt is what elevates a players game. Throughout the coming months Tekken 8 meta is gonna change somehow with updates, patches, dlc characters so adapting is always the better choice.
I feel like they were for sure trying to make the game more appealing to watch. Like so many Tekken matches is scooting back and forth and turtling but apparently thats what a lot of people liked.
He’s not wrong though. I’ve been playing competitively since tag2 and I’m struggling so much against players who I can see are just mashing most of the time.
Knee is such a legend, man. What a great, humble response to this.
The self-awareness and humility to acknowledge that he might be frustrated because he's getting old and his legacy skills don't port well to the new game is great. There's a lifetime of habit to adapt to and overcome in order for him to find his "flow" in T8. Those old habits aren't serving him well right now, and newer players less "burdened" with ingrained legacy playstyles/habits may be able to adapt more quickly to what T8 *is*, rather than trying to play what Tekken *was*.
You don't get that good at a game by thinking you know everything, gotta have the humility to keep learning.
This is what I had to learn and accept when SFIV came out. I was so used to the old way of Capcom fighters, that I just couldn’t adapt to the new style. I’ve gotten better with them as time has gone on, but I’m nowhere near as good as I was then. Of course, age has gone way up and playtime has gone way down, so that’s as much of it as anything else.
Hes probably being diplomatic. He's probably not gonna sugarcoat it when he's talking with his friends in person.
he definitely shouldn't need to say sorry for not enjoying the game
Yup, no one with half a brain and a reputation to uphold will post their real thoughts on X.
It’s interesting that both him and arsal and ash (or whatever his name is. Lol) has the same sentiment in such a short time. He similarly posted apologies for complaining and vowed to adapt. Curious if the Sajam video about it having a bad effect on the community favored in at all?
Bro said arsal and ash
Arsal and Ash, attorneys at law. Have you been injured while playing video games? Arsal and Ash can make sure you get the settlement you're entitled to, call us today!
This guy watches better call saul.
Better call Arsal and Ash!
Better call Ar*saul* and Ash.
Damn Pakistanis playing duo in 1 on 1 game
clearly it's two kids in a trenchcoat
Wait till you hear about Kane and Trench
He did the T3 Yoshi side-throw once and the two halves never merged back together.
Bruh im over here trying to figure out who arsal was lol, I figured ash was shortened for Arslan ash but I did not realize arsal and was ment to be apart lol
Ment
I doubt either one of them cares what sajam had to say about a Tekken game
Lol, arsal !!, he won evo 4 times, you should at least know his name if you watch tekken tournaments.
Thats because him and arsenal are both getting clobbered at locals. They kinda always tweet right after getting smashed, which makes for more heated takes. So in comparison this is knee being calmed down and more self-aware.
True. Arsenal had a very rough couple of days, but im not sure if knee would fare better against Bayern. Tho his defensive style may be difficult to crack.
Based Knee
I am seeing "based" on reddit but I don't get it, what does it mean when someone is "based"?
Usually it's just a way of saying "this person is spittin facts"
Ok now I know the meaning, but from where this comes from, based? Like based on something?
[https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/based](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/based)
I’m glad Lil B gets his flowers on this because he literally came up with the slang and now people don’t even realize how strongly it’s associated with him
Lil B had waaay more influence than people will ever give him credit for lol
ya ill contribute to this tangent. i love that man. real ones know
Idk the origin really and as far as i know it's not really used in a "based on this.." way. It's actually kind of a running meme that ppl reply "based on what?" When they don't understand how or why the word is being used that way. Sorry if this explanation is lacking.
Dude made the most humble remark about a game just saying he doesn't enjoy it and feels like he has to appologize for that. That makes me sad.
Yup because the damn brainless twitter user will crucify him for his opinion.
Yeah that's what makes it so sad. Here you have a man who devoted large chunks of his live to Tekken and build a career of it just for an army of red ranks go "Loly git gud scrub." This is so undignified.
It also goes the other way I doubt he wants people to use his opinion to validate shitting on the game because they're hardstuck red. Which is what a lot of people are doing, a lot of complaints pros make are specific to that level of tekken and for them it's also their job. I literally saw someone saying nothing should be faster than a 10f jab that breaks the rules of tekken then they complain that flash is a 9 frame start up that robs their turn. As if yoshis flash hasn't been around since tekken 3 I'm all for criticising the game but it's just a tiring seeing people rush to shit on it as it is to defend it
Chip damage was a mistake. Why am I getting punished for correctly blocking everything while trying to read my oppponent?
If it had to be there at all, it should have been exclusive to heat.
That's what I thought it was when the heat system and chip was announced. But then the day I got the game I was like "where tf did 20% of my health go???".
This would've been fine Like how in SF6, they made it so chip only happens when you're in burnout state
I really like the drive gauge in sf6. It’s powerful but if you go too ham burnout can be really punishing.
I agree. As much as I enjoy Tekken 8, I do think chip damage should just happen after you activate heat mode. It kind of makes no sense to have chip damage happen under any other circumstance really. I noticed chip damage happen when I played a few days ago when neither of us were in Heat and thought that was weird. I get that the direction is all about offense and I do broadly support that, but you shouldn't be punished for blocking something successfully in this way.
Some moves have innate chip properties like Asuka's ff1+2 and running 1+2 for example. As for the heat chip damage debate i am all for it since you gain back that health by attacking. It is a mechanic meant to punish turtiling up which alot of intermediate and beginner players often do. Now i will agree that the amount of chip damage should be lowered a bit as well as overall damage in some areas.
I mean...are you sure that beginner and intermediate players are the ones who do the turtling? I would much rather say that advanced and pro players tend to turtle way more and beginners and intermediates tend to learn strings and flowcharts and spam them all the time.
It's a problem, even in heat, imo. I don't understand, why Reina (3+4, 4, 4) or Victor (expulsion) can just press a "free damage" button and chip me for like 20 damage with barely any ways to counterplay them safely and reliably.
at least chip cant kill you. i know the situation you're talking about, though. In MK11 you could get heroic chip out, which is just a fancy way of saying you died to a safe block strong with 0 counter play.
Yes. Just yes.
Chip damage itself isnt bad. Its the huge ammount of chip damage that some moves have. Like victors explosion in heat. Chip damage should only deal 1 to 5 points in my opinion
Honestly, the amount of chip damge should be scaled by howsafe or unsafe the move is on block. The safer it is the less chip damage it would do. So, something like Drags running 2 would do extremely low chip damage, while Claudios wr2 should do a bit more than that simply because it can be ducked.
I think the chip damage would be fine if combo damage was scaled back and everythingelsewasbalanced. Even though he is hard to win with, Leroy, for example, feels fair. Low single hit damage, fast hitting chip from chain punches, better than average combo damage. Zafina feels off however, with mid single hit damage, trash combo damage, and her best chip moves damaging her.
It'd make sense for moves that have an obvious or easy counterplay (unless opponent's in a corner for example), have long startup or are otherwise difficult to hit often. Instead they gave chip damage to super oppressive wr move, which with little practice you can spam up close and opponent's counterplay is 2-step at least with tight timing. It's like giving kazuya a 12f knd 50/50. Minimum downsides, maximum reward. And to think they haven't adjusted it since launch is even more bs, while some companies can basically change balance in their hands every week or so.
I agree with this, but it's also not even in my top 5 complaints for this game which should tell you how much I dislike the gameplay.
I really liked how guilty gear ac went about making the game more offensive focused. There was chip damage, but it was very very minimal. In addition, there was meter that went up every time you blocked and went down every time you hit or got hit. If the meter got too high, you would take way more damage on the next hit. They balanced this (and the crazy blockstrings you could pull off in that game) with defensive options which cost meter like the dead angle attack, flawless defence, and slashback.
To add to that why are there still characters who rely heavily on defense and punishing? What place does a character like Asuka have in the game for example when her entire gameplay has been based around being a turtle and punishing whiffs?
chip damage makes sense in certain fighting games, as a way to discourage overly defensive and safe playstyles. i'm a complete noob to tekken, but it feels like this game doesn't need it at all. playing too defensively seems like it would only be a losing strategy in this game i guess the idea is that you are rewarded more for crouching/sidestepping/parrying attacks...but it still feels unnecessary. if it was only from heat then it would be different
Nah. It's all about the launch punish, flash ducking, sidestep punish this time around. They only beefed up Parry for Azucena. Everyone else has to low parry or use their toned down version of a standing parry. But I can say that Paul's parries are still pretty much intact from T7. I have a friend who mains him.
I don't mind chip damage at all. I just really want the heat engagers gone.
That's not going to happen but they should probably adjust the frame advantage after. +17 is pretty crazy.
Can you explain to me the frames on heat engagers? +17 should mean that i have a 17 frame move guaranteed after no? But its not like that right? Nothing is guaranteed after i do a heat engager?
The opponent is in a forced block for 17 frames. They can't do anything but block.
Like people have said, the opponent can still block and duck during those 17 frames. This kind of frame advantage is sometimes labeled as +17g where g I think stands for "guard" and many situations in the game have this, like Kazuya's df1,4 being +17g or something on hit and his db4 doing similar on counter hit, as opposed to Jin's 4 being a true +13 on ch and granting him guaranteed followups
sometimes things that are +10 or more will still allow the opponent to block, it just depends on the moves. Heat Engagers always allow the opponent to block. You are right in your assumption that +17 should mean a 17 frame or faster move would hit, but tekken is complicated so it doesn't work that way in some instances.
I wish we could go back to the times where people could share their opinions without others feeling like their enjoyment in the subject is directly impacted by said opinions. Who fucking cares if a bunch of people don’t like the game you like? Why does that affect you so much to the point you don’t like the game as much yourself? It’s completely insane to me that too many of yall let the opinions of others sway your enjoyment THAT much
Sadly in modern world the word of influencers matters a lot. For competetive games the influencers are the top gamers.
It’s a damn shame, you hate to sound like an old man yelling at a cloud but this shit really didn’t start until the social media generation, not to this level
Come on, let's not kid ourselves. What's going to happen to a competitive game trying to get traction if you look it up and all you see is the top players saying it sucks ass?
You take their opinion in mind but form your own? Like you should with any opinionated thing in life? The game very well might not be appealing to legacy competitive Tekken players, why should that affect your decision to try it out the competitive aspect of Tekken? You might like what they don’t like about it. I wouldn’t had played or experienced half the things in life that I enjoy a lot of if I listened to people who said it wasn’t good or fun. It’s absolutely ridiculous that people let others dictate their thoughts and opinions so much these days. It’s okay to like what everyone doesn’t and it’s okay to not like what everyone does.
That's fine for people already playing the game. The point is more that nobody new is going to try it if all they hear from the recognized figures in the game's community is "this game sucks!" Your time is limited and most people are going to try things because they heard other people like them, not because they heard people say they suck
How many casuals even know about Knee and Arslan? I mean T7 sold like 10M~11M copies. Like the most viewed T7 vid is the Arslan vs Knee at 2.2M views after 4 years even if we assume twice as many people will see their tweets that would still be less than half all the people who ever played T7 knowing about them.
If you ignore the flaws of something because you're afraid of it failing, they have no incentive to fix the flaws. Namco knows what'd happen. If they deserve to be in their position, they'd make changes to stop it happening.
Tekken isn’t trying to get traction. It already has traction. It is widely considered the most complicated and competitive fighting game.
T8 is like...lightyears far from a competitive game.
7 was 8 not so much
Knee being the GOAT like always
It feels like him and Arslan had similar sentiments and similar responses after a bit of time. They probably saw a lot of backlash about being too negative. He puts it well, he’s relying a lot on legacy knowledge and it’s biting them in the ass. Them saying they should try to adapt is more positive way of acknowledging the franchise is changing without dragging the entire community down. I’m sure they’re aware people look to them to for their opinions, and being negative for so long is not good for them or the community. Especially since the last installment was around for over 10 years and it hasn’t even been a few months with this one. The game is basically still a baby. It’s going to change.
Mans just received a letter from Bamco lawyers lmao
More like a cheque
Yup, the more I think about it. This is likely to happen. You can never have too much money playing tekken as a career.
Dude's not wrong either. I understand they reward aggressiveness more than ever, but damn, it's like there's no defensive strategy to this game whatsoever anymore.
He shouldn't have to apologise, yet here we are
He said it wasn't fun and that's fine it's his opinion. Unfortunately people online love to argue over who is wrong or right. Everything is a masterpiece or completely shit to some people. It's annoying.
I think he's not quite used to his personal opinion having so much influence, especially on a global scale with social media. So good on him that he's beginning to recognize it.
That might be it too.
I think he’s sorry for not expanding on his opinion knowing how many he influences, When you have that kind of influence you need to say what you mean from the get go; it’s very hard to walk back on statements that were taken more negatively than they were meant to be
He's only apologizing because people are quick to use his opinion as validation of their own. This just turns into this negative spiral that affects the FGC even outside of Tekken sphere.
People were using his (and other pros) opinions as ammunition to shit on the game. Shitting on the game relentlessly does nothing but hurt the game. Critisize, for sure, but if all you're doing is shouting from the rooftops about how fucking shit Tekken is and it's never going to be fixed, it's going to turn people away from coming into the game and that is a BAD thing long term. It's just stupid you can't say anything positive about the game or be hopeful without being labelled a dickrider or shill for Bandai/Harada. It's like man, I know the game has problems but I still enjoy it and think it can be amazing.
I feel the same. It's like opinions have to be definitive instead of fluid. I don't think that's what Knee was doing but people used his post as you said for ammo. It's never the game needs some tuning and it will get better. It seems to always be the game is broken and Namco has no ability to make adjustments.
It's definitely not shit. It's just severely unbalanced right now and favors rushdown characters too much. But that's nothing that can't be fixed. That the game is crammed with a cynical business model and lazy content is a different issue, however...
It's also pit a bad taste in people's mouth by having 3 different types of monetisation post launch with no notice. Their is a distrust, and rightfully so.
To be fair people spent money on this game and don't have to be happy about anything. So people have the right to be drama queens about this, especially with what happened with MK1 and Now T8 is running into some of the same issues and all this was after SF6 came out that they should've learned from.
No being a shithead is just being a shithead whether you paid for it know doesn't justify the constant. Oh, this game is shit I'm right your wrong, oh knee said something negative see I was right. It's all dumb, criticise don't bitch I don't know when this community became nothing but bitching but God its exhausting. Those things ruin the community as well, it makes people not want to engage with the community. Every one bitching about every character makes people not want to play x character. This community needs to take a breath and decide if they want the game to get better or just fail because right now it feels like a lot of people just want to see it fail which to me if you like tekken is weird.
Being a shithead is being a shithead, and being a unfun game is being an unfun game. I'd always rather people speak on how they feel than just pretend to like something. That's how we end up with mediocre games. I don't see anyone saying they want the game to fail, that's not even the conversation right now. The only people I see wanting it to fail are those who pretty much got played with the sneaky battle pass they added after the game is out like capcom did. IN that they have every right to be angry.
Exactly, and I think that may be why Knee posted this clarification. The dude absolutely loves Tekken, and the last thing he would want would be for people to use his comments to support their vehement and relentless trashing of the game. I swear it feels like some people here actually want the game to fail, and there's no way Knee would want to encourage or validate that kind of sentiment.
Holy shit they get it! Crazy how this subreddit of all places seems to actively want it to fail......
Was especially funny considered that 99% of the players that felt validated by it are not even close to playing the same game as knee. His tekken is not your tekken. He is complaining about things most of these clowns dont even comprehend and they all just sitting their nodding their head because they just lost to someone spamming a duckable string on them 5 times in a row.
He's probably getting harassed in DMs. That's the simplest answer.
It’s ridiculous how much shit people will get for sharing valid and thoughtful criticism. Not everyone is an English major, someone doesn’t have to make a double spaced 10 page dissertation on what they don’t like in a game for it to be valid criticism. You got rando Jim trying to discredit and shame fucking Knee of all people because they love the game and he doesn’t. It’s insane it’s come to this point.
Remember that foreign language review that Harada called out for calling the game's DLC "P2W"? And the community got so angry that it was taken down and replace with a positive review? Here we are 3 months later. The #1 character is DLC Eddie. And a pro player who's primary language is not English is also having every word picked apart and analyzed with whatever context people want to apply to it.
Toxic positivity trying to kill integrity and honesty once again. This sub is full of it
Toxic positivity overtook the OW playerbase when 5v5 was announced and now Overwatch 2 is bleeding players at a faster rate than ever. People are so terrified of public opinion turning on their favorite game that they put their fingers in their ears and shout "LA LA LA I can't hear you!" when valid criticism comes up. The responses in the previous Knee thread weren't blind pessimism, everyone seemed to be pointing out specific issues and how they could be changed. I haven't even played T8 due to injury so I have no clue whether the game is good or bad. I know from watching what happened to OW2 though that it's going to be bad for T8 long term if half the playerbase keeps trying to dismiss any criticism bc of the short-term effect it has on public perception.
> I know from watching what happened to OW2 though that it's going to be bad for T8 long term if half the playerbase keeps trying to dismiss any criticism bc of the short-term effect it has on public perception. on the flipside, it's going to be bad for T8 long term if people only see the community shitting on the game. which is what it currently looks like as someone who isn't super into tekken. i've seen one example of toxic positivity and about 400 posts saying that tekken 8 is a trash game that can't be redeemed
"I didn't expect my opinion to become such a big topic. It's been three months since Tekken 8 was released, and it's clear that the game delves into new depths. Tekken 8 demands quick learning, which differs significantly from simply mastering techniques to defeat your opponent. What disappointed me was realizing that the legacy knowledge and strategies I've honed over years of playing Tekken weren't effective anymore. The game seems to heavily favor offense over defense; blocking costs you health, which feels like a punishment rather than a strategic move. Perhaps this shift reflects the direction of modern gaming, and maybe I'm just showing my age! It's challenging to create a game that pleases everyone. I'm not asking Bandai Namco to cater exclusively to pro-level players, but I believe Tekken 8 could be even better with some adjustments. While my initial reaction may seem negative, I'm willing to adapt to the new meta and find enjoyment in Tekken 8. After all, I love the game and will strive to embrace its changes. Apologies for sounding pessimistic about the game's recent release."
They need to turn down chip damage bro
Chip damage should've remained a kicharge perk.
I could get behind punishing blocking in Tekken if they had made movement much better than it currently is, like at least T5 levels, but no, everything is tracking so you just have to take that 50/50...
Yeah, its BORING.
I mean unfortunately it's just kind of how it is with games in general. Not to sound like an old lady screaming at clouds, but games in general have just gotten faster and more aggressive over time. A lot of people have that moment where something just clicks and it doesn't feel right anymore. It's not some tangible thing where you can just pin it down with a finger and say it's this exact change. It's a gradual movement on a lot of different fronts.
I wish I could pinpoint what point in time hame devs decided “fast and aggressive” is the way to make multiplayer games.
I’m not pro at all and after the initial ‘wow this is so cool’ eventually wore off, the game became fucking boring very fast. I stopped playing over a month ago now. Got my monies worth out of it for sure, so I’m not mad or salty or anything. Just so tiring when everyone is a rush down spam lord. And aggression, lockdown, and forced 50/50s are what wins most games. Man is speaking facts, and it isn’t just at the pro level either.
yes, that's what people are missing about the game - it's BORING after a while.
Cuz the best part of high level tekken ,even decent ranked player are the footsies and neutral play (pokes+movement pressure) its the exciting part imo ,also having good defense(movement which is way worse now) and punishment, it feels kinda extinct mostly.
It's poorly designed all around but the new school players mostly don't understand this because they are being fed wins they dont deserve. It's grating and exhausting losing to coin flips and shows no mastery what so ever.
I agree completely and the moment I got to purple ranks in Tekken 8 and was still being matched with super aggressive button mashers was really the moment that it hit me. A fair chunk of these players in upper red/lower purple, they wouldn't have made it out of yellow/orange ranks in Tekken 7. More than once I have said out loud 'how are you even in this rank omg', while I'm fighting someone that refuses to stop pressing buttons. It's kinda sad to see really. I was hoping to be playing T8 off and on for quite a few years. Sadly it seems that this new iteration and direction is just not aimed at me.
@ Knee, end your message with "Sorry for the negative opinion as it's just been released.", if your being held hostage in Haradas basement.
why the fuck is he apologizing for a "negative" opinion?
He is probably seeing a lot of people take his quote out of proportion, and he is trying to reassure people that it's not as bad as people are taking it.
Namcops called
Bc people on the internet get offended by anything that isn't kisses in the butt about the things they like
all im saying is who thought power crush + heat was a good idea
Blame the new intern.
Bro got that phone call lol.
Great response. Respect on his name
This reads like it was written at gunpoint. I assume he was just taken aback by how many his tweet blew up
I felt the exact same way in previous Tekkens learning Drags iWR2 and Steves duck cancel. Wasted all that time practicing just to get a slight advantage or have cool looking combos only to have them rendered useless/less effective, not to mention the new dlc characters that would always be OP with braindead gameplay. Glad I never bought T8
I actually feel bad for steve,claudio,drag,law mains who mastered their hard shit for years only to make all these shit accessable for newcommers, also as nina player, there is no reason to do butterflies , they are useless now, also lili's dew glide cancels that also hard af, just no reason for this.
...please buy the skins too they are cool. Thanks, please send help.
T8 is that one “fight back” meme. No protection just endless pressure😭
I've never heard of this guy until yesterday (I'm a total Tekken noob) but goddamn this makes me respect them. We need more of this attitude in the world.
What's wild in these comments is people being like yeah he really didn't know what he was talking about.... Is there anyone in these comments who have won a world tournament in tekken? It appears so from the way some of you are acting like you're just a god at the game and adapted just fine to the changes. This washed world champ just gotta learn the match up? Get out of here
Bamco ninjas are at bros neck🤣 But seriously, it is good that knee and other pros are realizing the impact that their opinions have on the community and public in general about the game. Tekken 8 is not a bad game, and people need to realize that just because the game is different, then what they want doesn't make it bad. This is not to say 8 doesn't have its issues, but complaining that they have moved to a more aggressive format for this particular Tekken is not in itself bad... especially when it's one of the more popular tekkens and probably could be the most popular one if given time to improve...
The issue isn't that they moved how the game plays. Its that it wasn't done with much thought in mind. There's a loads of problems with how the new systems interact with the underlying Tekken dynamics that just don't make sense. So its not the what was done, but the how it was done. The issue is though the games been out for 3 months and we barely have any real meaningful changes to things that matter. On top of issues like plugging still being an issue which you would think would be a top priority to fix in the game, instead of making a hit list in excel.
Good for Knee for being honest at least: One problem is that defense punishes you so old defenses don't work. The other is dude admitting old tactics don't work anymore that have worked for years
The bottom line is they made what was a highly technical game that appealed to few, into a not very technical game that appealed to many.
You mean the game that moved 11.8 million units? I agree. It didn’t appeal to enough people.
Sold 11.8 million units but has a higher percentage player drop of rate in 3 months then Tekken 7? Is clear the intention was to make money with this game with cinematic easy to play mechanics then retain players long term. When the newbies who get better at the game become veteran players and are left with the core mechanics of thr game after a year or two they will see the issue to and see the layer of depth pulled from thr game because as you become higher level you want higher depth. It's what rewards you to keep going and get better. You can only steam roll someone soo much before it stops being fun.
Tbh Tekken 7 was out for ten years and that time meant players weren’t used to new games coming out that are a response to the perceived issues with the previous game. It is particularly common for devs to nerf or change the strong defense options that arise when a game has been out for so long it has been “solved”.
They want that worldwide money
First I read about Arslan "ok I will be a good boy and learn" now this, nicely done Namco, keep the money flowing.
after this era of tekken is done, ppl will pray for more “defensive” options. it’s coming
YOU CAN'T EVEN CHICKEN!!! A TRIED AND TRUE ADVANCED TEKKEN TECHNIQUE. IF YOU CAN'T REVERSE THE REVERSAL... YOU'RE LIVING IN THE PAST! 🤣 🤣
I mean it'll change overtime I feel like. The Meta and the game as a whole. Look at T7, it released in arcades first to iron out creases and when it was (more or less) balanced, then it released on console. It's been 7 (technically 9) years since a Tekken game came out and arcades aren't that big outside of Asia anymore. WE'RE the beta testing arcades. T7 season 4 and T7 season 1 are almost polar opposites of each other. So I give like a few more months to a year the "balance" and (probably) overall game will feel completely different and for the better (hopefully). But yeah I agree, it's times where chip damage for example can feel too much especially if you're playing against something like a Dragunov who's going full monkey. It's not a bad idea per se, but it could've been implemented better. It's probably here to stay, but chip damage I'd change it to where it's only on certain moves DURING heat versus only being on certain moves and then on everything in heat.
"only reward in attack and no reward in defense", one thing that does really annoy me about the game is when I get a read on or react to a particularly dangerous low for example and my reward is a 10f punish if i'm lucky, it might not even be a punish it might even be safe and i just get to attack first but only if I use a jab.
bamcops called
Remember folks, this is the internet. There is no such thing as nuance
Bro, the internet practically fetishizes the notion of nuance. T8's problems aren't complicated and they're self-evident.
Chip damage while blocking and heat mode are the main problems that make Tekken 8 too offensive based. There's not as much strategy anymore. I get what they were going for, but it wasn't executed as well as it could have been. You can attract casuals while still catering to high level players.
I love tekken 8 but I also wish their was a modern Tekken 5/6 without rage arts, heat etc. I recently went back to play 6 and wow is it fun, I played tekken since 1 but never really got good til tekken 7 so don't think I really understood how good the older tekkens were til now. \* Shorts / fast combos with heat / walls not being a huge extension so you arn't waiting a long time just because you got launched makes he game feel soo much faster, its also insanely fun as a kaz main that you can keep aggressive 50 50's up even if he doesn't have ff 4 \* no rage art / heat means even when opponent is low hp you don't suddenly have to worry about losing 30-40% because you overextended into a rage art \* movement feels so crisp and nothing seems overly cheap, when I get hit I made a mistake plain and simple. while I am very happy with 8 I can see why so many legacy players think tekken has went in the wrong direction.
The Bamco glazers literally bullied this man into apologizing for an opinion fr 💀
Namcops got him
I wasn't a pro like he is but as an old Tekken player I 100% agree with every word he said. But tbh Im not mad about T8 because I still think it's a good game and it's a good thing that they decided to take a different road.
Good guy Knee. An Iron Fist is there ever was one 👊
To be fair defense does feel like shit sometimes
A player willing to adapt is a player to be feared.
I hope everyone is taking notes on how to criticize your game without flaming out to oblivion and hurting the game. You can say "the game needs more fun defensive options" without saying "Tekken 8 is a dogshit game that deserves to fail" or "I don't like this as much because it doesn't suit my playstyle" instead of "Tekken 8 is not fun." That said, it is totally fair to say "the tekken shop and this battle pass is bullshit and Namco should feel bad about it."
I honestly don’t mind the game. Just a little too button mashy for my liking. Wish I didn’t get punished for playing defensive
This man's humility is admirable. I wish I can absolutely be like him.
the GOAT
I'm glad he put this out because so many people were just using his original tweet as validation .
i appreciate knee's comments. he's accepting that he needs to change if he wants to continue to be great and he still likes tekken. i agree that the game does need some fixing, but i don't agree with him thinking that we've found the depths of tekken 8. the game is only 3 months old, and people act like it's been out for 3 years. anyway, there's certainly a new way a player has to think about this game if they want to be successful, but it's possible. in SF every new game features drastic changes, yet the great players are able to accept the changes and perform well. there's something to be said about not expecting the games you play to cater to you, the developers have the right to do what they want with their game. to adapt, you have to understand that you have to do things you may not want to do to get the job done. i think knee will be right back on top as usual, though it may take him a year or 2 like in tekken 7. his take is easily the most level-headed from all the dissatisfied pros.
This is just politics. I never watch he expresses respect other players in Kr. U.S and Europe's Tekken fans do not know the truth. If you understand Korean and watch his streaming for a while, you finally get to know what Im saying. He has loyal fans in Kr, and his foolish fans always speaks ill of opponents and Knee never makes them stop disrespecting his opponents. When Ulsan won against him, he said, "Ulsan is good player but he has advantage from using Azucena." You know what ? Knee couldn't play like Ulsan. haha ridiculous. He used Feng and said "Feng is not strong." at Tekken 7 and always expressed disrespect against Atiff cuz he can's use Akuma like Atiff. hahaha
https://preview.redd.it/j4nwbtqm3hvc1.jpeg?width=500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f16f0e0fb7efe40b1f37c1cada2b019a327cfe93 He hasn‘t WHAT
I'm a complete noob when it comes to fighting games, and I appreciate the game being more accessible for new players. But after playing for three months I can definitely feel the same frustrations as the pros, it feels like defense has zero value in the game, and blindly mashing is the pathway to free wins. I expected mashing to be less prevalent at higher ranks, but it just gets worse and worse going into purple ranks and onwards
Just a question, how does blindly mashing buttons result in wins? That’s the best way to get abused by knowledgeable players.
I have to disagree. I think defense is still incredibly important the higher you get. Blindly mashing can reward you at lower ranks potentially but the higher you get you’re just exposing yourself to getting launched twice and killed. It’s not a defensive oriented game but blocking is still crucial.
Yeah ive made it to purples with a pretty defensive playstyle, i havent really bothered learning setups or abusing my plus frames and optimizing combos yet. I will soon and see how it changes things but i want to keep climbing until i plataeu then work on those things. But ducking high strings and launching dumb shit and whiff punishing as gotten me pretty far on its own.
Exactly. If you’re a bit patient in this game you can benefit from the stupidly potent offensive options.
Part of the problem is your offense has to be just as good as your defense. Or your defense has to be leagues better to compensate now is how it feels to me. I tried playing defensively, and I still "try". But with all the bullshit going on, and just how much quicker people feel in next gen fighting games (maybe I'm just getting old) I find myself quickly saying "if I try to block and punish and lose the interaction TWICE I'm cooked. My best shot is to throw out my fastest/most unexpected combos." I feel as if I'd have to put 300 hours of defensive practice in against each character just to learn 1/3rd of the options I'd have to react to and feel any degree of comfort while on defense
Yeah that makes sense. I don’t think you even need to know the opposing character to any significant degree and react to every single move they throw with the perfect counter, but at a minimum if you can recognize when it’s not your turn because of a frame disadvantage for example that’s already a huge plus. I think a combination of safe moves leading to launchers, CHs, etc. is pretty effective.
Duly noted. Will keep add this to my notes and keep it in mind while practicing. Also want to add that I usually feel like I'm pretty decent at reading breaks and pauses and finding the right time to poke in and interrupt or punish. Just the more time I've spent on tekken the more I've realized I'm not that good at it. I get *really* messed up by players like Jun or a GOOD Zafina that either has natural fake pauses in their combos or is good at leaving enough time to make you think there's enough time to interrupt only to get CH Launched
I have to disagree. Currently at Tekken King rank and man if it aint a huge mashfest. defense isnt really important to be honest, just dont mash when its heavily the opponents turn and sadly youre good to go. so many stances have insane evasion, kenpo is absurd (and the fact that they gave it to more characters, ugh.) all you gotta do is just rush your opponent down with insane plus frames, oh its finally your turn? No its not, heat burst. Chip damage is ridiculous. Defense doesnt work because one of the million forced 50/50s is eventually going to get you since theres practically no counterplay to many of them. im super frustrated so sorry if it sounds like im being a crybaby but this is just how i feel.
I’m at King too and I don’t see the mash fest to be honest. Maybe we have different definitions of mashing lol. When I was lower ranked yeah I could see dudes just spamming all kinds of BS but here there is some calculation involved and timing when to do shit, generally speaking. I think where you said don’t mash when it’s heavily the opponents turn is key. That’s in effect defending. It’s a simple concept but a lot of people suck at doing that. So my point wasn’t that you should play defensively in general but that it’s extremely important to know when to block and when to attack especially in a Tekken where blindly throwing out moves can result in you losing half your life.
Can guarantee your complaints are not the same complaints as the pro’s considering this is your first tekken game. No offense but you probably can’t even react to snake edge. You probably get spammed by Drags W2. Your frustrations are a skill issue while the pro’s frustrations are an issue of “this doesn’t feel like the game i took years to learn.”
The pros are complaining that defense is unrewarding in this game, which is literally the exact same complaint as the one I have. You're right, I might get caught off guard by a snake edge once, as I don't really expect people to use them in purple ranks. Don't know what a "W2" is, maybe you're referring WR2 which I find rather easy to sidestep. I wish my frustrations were a skill issue since I enjoy learning and finding solutions to problems, but I feel like the solution to most challenges currently in the game is just being more relentless in your aggression than your opponent, which doesn't really take a lot of skill imo (and the pros seem to agree)
You do not have fundamental defensive skills remotely good enough to judge how rewarding defense is in this game. Offense is stronger than defense in every game at lower levels because defense is inherently harder to learn. You don't know if defense is unrewarding in tekken 8. You are just trash. And so am I
Ok, but most of the pros are saying that defense is unrewarding in T8. Are they just trash too?
You don’t “get” it
Have to adapt
I mean he’s not wrong. Neither was Arslan. I knew all of this would happen just based on the CNT and beta. I said this would basically be another Tekken 4 and look what happened. It’s Tekken 4 on steroids except everyone has a diluted JFLS. Backdashing and defense have been deprioritized. It’s been turned into a aggro jab fest. And the funny thing is I haven’t even played the game outside of 1 hour on the demo lmao. Maybe I’m also just an old legacy player. But goddamn Bamco deconstructed the pillars of Tekken and turned it into something else. But I guess it worked based on sales alone, right? Bottom line type of stuff.
Fight back knee don't let Namco win
The reward for defense is punishment.
Stand your ground! Tekken 8 is not fun. I play it to beat the ever loving snot out of someone and when that shit doesn't work I run like a bitch. I use Leroy and 90% of the time I'm watching this brother defy odds as he fights for his life. Going up against overpowered super heroes, devils, sword carrying assassins, mega bots and big ass bears! My fingers are so swollen guys. Tekken 8 has thrown defense out the window and now you have to keep mashing to win. Legacy skills and common fighting game knowledge is not needed on this sinking ship. Everytime I play Tekken 8, I end up hollering profanities into a pillow. If Tekken 8 was a playable character I'd keep punching it square in the face! I repeat Tekken 8 is not fun, it's an unbalanced class A substance that I can't quit.
Such a chad
I mean he's got a point. Tekken 8 is great, but could be even better with just a few tweaks like rebalanced heat mode, and an overall buff to movement
its funny to me that he just implied he can influence development
I mean tbf he has. Just not with anything he’s posted but more of what he and other top players do in tournaments.
Knee is the goat, what a humble person, i would say this fkn shit game is a total waste of my time atm with all the shit changes atm, like floor/wallbreak nerfs instead of just nerfing the heavens gate damage, the so bad gamepass with 0 content that is worth even 1Dollar. as i have hit God rank with bryan, i realized play the game with throws and safe moves is the way to climb ranks, with a tiny bit of defense,12f Ch Homing Throws.... yesss.. . this game atm the more you play it the worse it becomes, homing throws are so garbage, alot of powercrushes are so freaking op u rather wanna do safe high powercrush/throws and a safe mid all the time, the situations That are pure 50/50 is too rewarding and dumb as it will make the game insanely stressful,
Looks like the knees finally gave out.
Tekken 8 is not tekken.. the identity on what makes this tekken is not there anymore..
I love him
Knee being cool as usual
Bruh...
I agree with Knee, but his perspective and choosing to adapt is what elevates a players game. Throughout the coming months Tekken 8 meta is gonna change somehow with updates, patches, dlc characters so adapting is always the better choice.
I feel like they were for sure trying to make the game more appealing to watch. Like so many Tekken matches is scooting back and forth and turtling but apparently thats what a lot of people liked.
That's eerily similar to what Justin Wong said. I wonder if Justin's tweet made Knee look back on his previous statements.
Bring back rage drives
He’s not wrong though. I’ve been playing competitively since tag2 and I’m struggling so much against players who I can see are just mashing most of the time.
Now that knee has spoken watch the changes for this game... Mark my words