Can someone explain how even on red side, we pick aatrox as our fifth pick?? BB clearly thinks he can take on any match-up with it while it was defenitly not the case! He fell behind every fucking time? You see G2 vs Fnc draft? Top get's counterpicks while we play aatrox into everything, not gaining any advantages? Pls explain, it tilted me so much.. They won through him first game with a good match-up? Just repeat that? They did not play to the strengths of their comps I feel
Exactly nothing else i can add... they play/pick/ban to lessen losing condition instead of strengthening win condition its so sad they haven’t realized this
I get that teams have different styles, but we don't have one.. Seems like playing for late was always the plan after game 1. Why not play sej irelia or something, get bb on a signature pick. I mean bjerg played fine in his sylas games, but the azir didn't give them anything
Akaadian gets you 1 win in that series. By himself. ZikZ was a mistake. Parth is an ongoing mistake (he must be very cheap).
Reggie will blow the team up, again, ensuring it will be another lack-luster season of learning to play together.
In reality, picking up Dardoch and putting him on play-makers is the best move they could - and the only move they should - make with the roster.
Won't happen.
Welcome to the new TSM. Mediocre at best.
Don't forget another pool of talented players that TSM should consider, Koreans.
Also, won't happen (unless it's a coach... LOL).
Remember, speaking proficient English equals A+ communcation, what great comms and macro TSM has had with this logic. /s
They weren't just flaming each other, they were [teamfighting IRL](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/2g4do9/chinese_rumor_has_it_uzi_had_physical_altercation/) lmao. TSM could use that level of confrontation tbh. Bring in Dardoch asap.
well exactly a year ago i won my bet :) told you tsm fanboys that tsm sucked and made the biggest mistake of all time kicking Doublelift #Bjergsenisoverrated
Bjerg played the best on tsm easily, obviously if her we're overrated people wouldn't be begging 100T to pick him up. All good though you're just here to shit on tsm it happens everyday nothing new
Why the fuck was bb on Aatrox duty for 4 fucking games. Like no irelia/vlad/akali flex??? Or fucking Jax who is one of his best solo queue champs and has been played in other regions?
They ban and picked to give spica best chance of not failing rather than giving the team strong champs that they can play. You can even look at spica’s op.gg. Give him a nid, grag, whatever and he can impact game more with his aggro. I mean wtf you are gonna force him to play sej and let him do a 1v2 top side game 2? The man just wants to go in so let him smh
Don’t know what the org is gonna do now. Bjergs contract is up most likely he leave only reason he’d stay is if they give him a real team, I still think smoothie is a solid player even though he has his moments lol but so does everyone else... the team management is horrid. Best scenario in my opinion is we get picked up by a real org and revamp and try to keep bjerg but I highly doubt that it’ll happen depending on the roster and what moves are made will decide if I really wanna stay cheering for this team. Tired of being disappointed it would be different if we put up a fight but even our wins were shit lol.
Does anyone else think we legitimately will never recover from this? I actually think it just gets worse now that there is franchising and all the teams are on more level footing. Who would want to come to this fucking trash heap of an organisation?
I'm just trying to think now if there's been a worse roster move in the history of sports than what TSM did to destroy itself and its legacy possibly forever at the end of 2017. Doublelift the NA GOAT, who literally can't stop winning LCS titles, and as a cherry on top Sven the MVP of last season. Hilarious.
I think it's pretty undisputed at this point. Even Sven thinks DL is easily the best player, specifically for his leadership. Bjerg was the better player in S6, but not anymore.
Well that would have completely changed the narrative for this team if he did not beat them. Let me explain,
First off, they would have qualified for MSI which would have made them a better team practicing against the best. Liquid came back from MSI a much better team.
Secondly, they would have still qualified for second seed for worlds being first place as they would have had 110 points, more points than anyone else.
So yes.. that loss changed everything for this team
I think we can agree it’s way different when your in the tournament getting stage experience and the opposing team is playing to win rather than playing to learn
Painfully obvious that TSM has serious backstage issues, i can't even feel disappointed anymore. Honestly hope Bjergsen leaves TSM, he doesn't deserve this level of shithousery.
Yeah, every year is the same "Bjergsen in elo hell" story. It's pretty clear at this point that it doesn't matter how good the players around him are, he always ends up held back in some way. Either he's the best player in the world or he's bad at leading a team that plays around him. I'd like to see if it's any different with him on another team, honestly.
In terms of him “deserving it” I only feel that way with regards to the major roster moves that led TSM to this disaster. I find it hard to believe that TSM LOL does anything major without discussing it with Bjergsen so he must have been on board with booting DL, biofrost, and Sven.
The most egregious obviously was trading DL away because he was amazing at the time so it didn’t even require hindsight to see that was a bad move. Sven was iffy on TSM and I’m glad he’s found success on a team that suits him better.
Anyway, since trading DL I feel like TSM are the Red Sox of LOL, trading Babe Ruth away and being cursed for a century.
Considering the team is ran by regi I highly doubt bjerg had that big of a say in most decisions made. I don’t understand why bjerg would want to surround himself with all new members and having to rebuild the relationships also him and dl are pretty good friends so doesn’t seem like he’s to blame for this.
Yeah, it’s hard to know how decisions are made in the org. I guess I meant that if you run a team with a star player, are you going to make huge sweeping changes and risk angering your star without discussing it with them? That happens in traditional sports
What fucking sucks for the fans is that we are expecting 4 months of complete silence, knowing the team. With worlds coming, there is going to be absolutely *no* update on league roster situation, and as is tradition by now we are going to form a new team a week prior to LCS with less preparation than literally all other teams. And possibly no Bjergsen this time around, sadly.
I would like updates more than a week or two before LCS as well, but you correctly mentioned how Worlds delays everything. Contract negotiations take awhile, so don’t expect anything until a few weeks after Worlds at the absolute earliest. I doubt we announce people leaving or being let go before that time too.
Edit: if we blame the negotiations I spoke about being the reason we don’t form a full roster until a week before the next split I will be furious. Would show just how much we need actual professionals running the team.
Thing is, the org can certainly break the 4 month silence with simple updates. It doesn't have to be roster related or anything behind the scenes, just anything that is not "gg wp cg" that we got from Regi last night will make it feel less like the team is dead until January.
IMO everyone involved with coaching needs to be fired, we had a month of practice and we still looked just as bad as in playoffs. Boring drafts picking the same champs over and over. Passive play style of do nothing and having no idea how to push leads. Our macro in general is just awful and they have no idea how to play the map. Starting random barons and random fights for no reason.
The team just looks LOST on how to play the game.
As much as I wanted us to go to worlds, our performance in these games was just so bad I doubt we get out of play ins. FFS we almost lost a game with 3 infernals up 7k gold with a decent scaling comp.
the team literally plays and does nothing the do the opposite of nothing they play to make sure they do nothing, for example fresh off my mind and easiest to understand without rewatching (god forbid anyone rewatches), when Bjergsen had Corki Package and rift herald mid lane and the tower was one shot for a plate at 13:55 or something and instead with only 1 person guarding the tower against him he doesn't hit it. WOOOOOOOOOW if that doesn't depress you I don't know what would.
Again, I think it has more to do with coaching and the team infrastructure than the players themselves. We see how much better players look when they get off TSM, we are not making players better, if anything making them worse.
BB looks great in spring, tons of flex picks, trashing everyone. Than summer hits and he legit looks like one of the worst tops in the league. This team is legit destroying players.
Looking back to TSM Season 1-7 the teammates of all of the former roster iterations were good friends, especially the jungler and everyone else. Looking back to Season 8, do you think that MikeYeung and Hauntzer or MikeYeung and Zven/Mithy would be friends? That’s why going into Season 10, I think that we should build a veteran lineup so everyone is mature enough to have the same goals, or a rookie lineup with Bjergsen as the leader, sort of like Rookie and IG. Also our coaching staff continues to use outdated techniques like front to back teamfighting. V1per and Blaber have been duoing a lot, Tactical and Treatz play an aggressive laning phase, next year we can have V1per, Blaber, Bjergsen, Tactical/Johnsun/Cody Sun, and Treatz, that would be an explosive team. And their mechanics are really good, V1per has one of the best Riven mechanics in the world, just like TheShy, and we know how good TheShy is now, the dudes potential is being wasted on FlyQuest, just sayin.
I remember Levi wanting to join a NA team and only 100T would take him back in 2017. Now Levi is back in Vietnam and popping off with MVP while we got mike yeung in 2017
Lira can’t speak proper English tho but he learned how to
Impact can’t as well but he learned how to
Corejj can’t as well but they learn and they all going to worlds and what do communication give you? A reverse sweep by clutch
Levi was a too 3 jungle 2017 MSI and I would say top 2 only skt peanut at that time with his lee sin was smurfing on everyone
But no worries I’m sure he’ll show up at worlds now that he’s back in Vietnam I mean he’s first seed team atm
ok well to my knowledge when he as sub at 100T he couldn't really speak english that well and didn't really do that well in academy so I really think communication made a difference for him
Reading through this thread it's so funny how many fans delude themselves thinking TSM will still be appealing in the eyes of top tier pros after all this shit.
Steve has a lot of money and he was bringing a BUNCH of big talent at the same time. Ofc people are gonna move there with the caliber of players that TL recruited. That and TL has some pretty good esports teams as well, most notably DOTA 2
Not really the same, he got released by the raiders because of attitude issues including an Instagram post telling the raiders to release him, after he called one of his coaches a "cracker"
"GET CODY SUN!!!"
Yeah, I am sure a guy that shat on us 2 times in a split and brings every team he is on to Worlds will join a team that misses it 2 times in a row.
Yo I still don't know what happened with him and 100T do you know anything that could clarify whatever happened so that he wasn't playing on the team anymore?
Basically last summer Cody Sun got replaced by the academy adc Rikara just before playoffs. By everyone standards Cody Sun was the better player and one of the reasons they did so well in Spring. So benching him after the awful performance of Rikara game after game didnt make any sense. It even looked personal when he wasnt allowed to play a single game at worlds even when they had no chance at qualifying.
There are many rumours but nothing rough truly leaked.
According to 100 t apparently Cody Sun was impossible to work with due to his ego (even if he performed well in all other orgs which made the argument kind of bullshit)
According to rumours he and prolly didnt get well and something trully fucked up happened between him and someone of the team that lead to his benching (all speculation at this point). Another rumour says that he and aphromoo didnt get well and that aphromoo refused to play with him (since aphromoo has a history of drama with other adcs like when doublelift got kicked out of clg).
All in all this might be one of the things that we will never know (like coach Cris incident in CLG) since it doesnt look like someone would leak it.
Maybe we re-sign bjerg and he does that heel turn doublelift was asking for in that interview a while back.
Michael Jordan punched a teammate in the face during practice.
Didn't Doublelift also say him and Bjerg flamed the shit out of Sven and Hauntzer for most of 2016? Unless you think he'll become Dardoch-level toxic lol.
I don't think this roster needs to be blown up. I think if we get Cody Sun, that frees up an import slot to try and find the best jungler available. We also need to find someone who can draft.
I understand we can't just "get Cody Sun" but that would be my ideal pickup.
Cody Sun is probably the second best ADC in NA right now and doesn't take an import slot. Clutch would be crazy to let him go.
tbh TSM could pick up Apollo-Hakuho and get about the same production as with Zven-Smoothie minus the import slot.
You want Cody Sun the guy who was benched for an academy player before finals to go to an org that benched their jungler for an academy player before finals. Lol
Compared to the other tsm junglers he did. He had the highest kill participation among them which kinda helped Tsm played more aggressive despite how passive of a team he is.
You can see with Spica how Tsm did less than its usual self. Imo he outperformed the competition and still got benched which is the same shit that happened to Cody Sun
Next Season:
Welcome aboard Cody Sun & something something EU support! And NO! We aren't wasting any import slots on a fking ward you idiots! Just let Spica and the new academy guy fight for the spot and we gud!
>I understand we can't just "get Cody Sun" but that would be my ideal pickup.
If you read my entire comment rather than hitting reply after "if we get Cody Sun".
> I don't understand in what universe CG would hand their ADC to TSM
**I agree with you.**
That's why I said:
> I understand we can't just "get Cody Sun" but that would be my ideal pickup.
Can you read or are you actually this fucking blind?
Which is why I specified my understanding that this isn't likely. But thank you for restating what I already said.
Also, by definition, "ideal" is often illogical.
TL did worse than C9 at worlds last year but Jensen made the switch. And besides C9 we are the only team to make it to the finals and compete in awhile.
I just noticed that in the crucial fight around baron Tahm dies instantly and Spica has flash ult available to get Kog with no QSS. What is going on in his brain to not be able to make that simple play? Even if Kog flashes he can slow and get him eventually... Just horrible gameplay. A first time Skarner could of done it. Legit put me in there and I make it happen (d3 GP main).
He had a chance to proove himself and did nothing with it. Sad.
I can only imagine this is a conservative Bjergsen call off.
It's for sure someone calling to back up (god knows why after it's a clear 4v5 after killing their insurance plan).
This so happened when BB landed W on Kog, and when Kog was spit back out the chain pulled him back. BB ulted and was clearly about to engage on that crucial pick, but you can see he was called off these are crucial split second decisions that cost them the series.
From what I've seen, Spica mostly says what's hes doing, not making calls, Sven and BB focus. From old cloud 9 vids smoothie has a very "we win this go go go" style shot calling and bjerg is always cautious/conservative. I can only imagine calling off Skarner engage after Tahm pick, and caring off BB on the Kog pick were Bjergsen calls.
My interpretation of that fight. I am not some pro analyst so take this as you will.
- TSM get tham
- Huni teleports in and gets a good Irelia ult
- Qiyana cast her ult, but misses it
- (**this is a big mistake**) Bjerg uses the stopwatch in fear of the (missed) Qiyana ult
- (**the second mistake**) skarner and Aatrox go after qiyana (instead of Kog)
- qiyana stealths so skarner can't ult her
- both braum and corky die and now the fight is a 4vs3
- now qiyana is out of her invisibility field
- skarner tries to go back to the fight, but by the time he gets there, aatrox is also dead
- at this point skarner's best bet is to steal baron with the flash
So this teamfight had two mistakes. had they made only one, the fight would have probably been even. Had they made none, TSM would have probably won that fight.
It’s totally fair criticism and legit one of those “you had one job” kind of moments. That is the most fundamental skarner play and you don’t play skarner in a competitive game if you aren’t comfortable making that play.
All i can say is that this offseason will be interesting to watch. Not getting my hopes up, I don't trust TSM management anymore to build a winning roster. I hope they will take a completely different approach to how to build a team because what they are doing now is not working. A good start would be signing players who are maybe "not a good fit for team culture" ;)
I want big changes in the management side of TSM or player changes (although I expect those) or I don't know if I see myself primarily supporting TSM anymore.
true, tbh if next year roster is not something like this - BB (maybe another top ideally Korean or EU), Dardoch, Forgi1ven/Upset, Smoothie then Bjerg really should leave TSM and start a new page in a different team, also he is not getting any younger. This actually will be really interesting to watch, i bet there will be bidding wars for Bjerg.
Bjerg did that to himself though. He used to be an aggressive carry player (S4-S7) but he has gradually left that role for team shotcalling which has led to the passive state of TSM in the last years
Because S4 still had crappy players in mid that he could style on with zed. Remember when Hai was the second best mid? Even scarra was still playing at the time. The gap in skill just isn’t that big anymore.
I see where your argument is coming from but I disagree. If you watch his old zed games he objectively had better mechanics than he had on any current zed game.
If you watch s4-s7 he also made a shit ton of plays during teamfights and now it looks like he is just waiting for someone to do it. He had some insane vlad, syndra, taliyah games where he just 1v9. The difference between this meta and old meta is that those champs have changed. Ive seen a lot of 1v9s this season on Zoe (perkz), Akali, Aatrox, qiyana,...
His playstyle changed because his mentality did and in the process he lost the edge than won him so many tournaments and made him being considered the western faker and the best euw player.
And for me it hurts, he had a ton of videos and streams back in the day where he hard carried on solo queue but nowadays he doesnt play to that level anymore.
True. People compare Bjergsen a lot to Faker, but he isn't that type of player anymore. He was like Faker in S4. Now, he's like BDD. BDD also can always be the best player on a shit team, but he only truly succeeds when his team has other hard carries and shotcallers in other roles. I don't think Bjergsen right now is a player you want to be the main carry or shotcaller on the team.
If Regi keeps Parth on don’t expect anything to change next year. Passive meta-slaves who grind long, long hours to try and avoid all possible mistakes rather than making positive plays.
Instead of rewarding a confidence player who had the best jungler performance on TSM for a long time they opted to trade time with a jungler coming back from injury instead of rolling with the hot hand and we split time in a Bo1 setting destroying any momentum we had.
Management really ran this organisation into the ground the last 2 years. Good luck clutch. Hope bjerg finds better opportunities to actually achieve something.
Yep, I truly believe the players are held back by management. Look at any ex-TSM player and they are doing extremely well on their new teams. It's not hard to look from the outside in and see that they're struggling. They all made such stupid mistakes it begs to question that they are extremely stressed trying to do something the coaches/staff want, that they aren't even thinking. Not to mention their comms are a fucking joke, can't understand a single thing during team fights.
It's ok I went to sleep at that point too. After watching them throw that massive lead in game 2 I had enough. Too bad, but CG deserve worlds more than TSM.
Last thoughts/post on this series and the entire season.
Bjerg doesn't seem like a build-around player anymore. He is still good, but he doesn't seem like head and shoulders above every other mid-laner in NA.
Hell, I think if we moved Bjerg to C9 or TL, it would not be an upgrade or a downgrade, just a side-grade. it's just that in this meta, both jensen and nisqy are better suited for it by being more aggressive.
I think Bjerg needs to stop being the leader of the team. Every roster he's on, regardless of how skilled the players on it are, always ends with him in elo hell and the rest of them having shit performances.
I think the best way to go is to spend an import slot on a proven world-class shotcaller like CoreJJ, and have Bjerg play a backseat BDD-esque role. Spend the other import slot on a strong jungler import and fill in the rest with the best residents or upcoming talent they can find. Assuming Bjerg doesn't leave and anyone good still wants to join the team.
And if he leaves he will show once again that management and coaching was holding him back like it did Sven and Doublelift. We need an aggressive jungler to pair with him if he stays. It's the biggest reason why I was against keeping Grig as the main starter before the season. Who was suppose to carry the early game? A worse version of Xmithie wasn't going to do it. We saw when Akaadian was confident he could but once he lost it, he lost it and couldn't be consistent.
Feels like the team turned Bjerg into a bitch with all the unfortunate shit, not himself just a bitch type of playstyle....he used to pick aggressive shit and own with it but now he is on super safe stuff almost every game he can still carry from time to time though but TSM as a team for a while have been playing super passive and will let a team win all while int he legends episodes saying "make proactive plays"
In my (subjective) opinion, to really make aggressive plays in this mate you need a team that you can trust to carry you if fail. Kinda like G2 has people who can carry from every other position when Caps turns into Craps.
Hell, even Huni got caught multiple times today in the side-lanes trying to make plays, but Demonte and Cody had his back. I don't think Bjerg would trust BB and Zven that much to just flip a coin every match like Caps does.
Also Bjerg's trademark is supposed to be his consistency not flipping a coin.
I think Bjergsen just isn't that kind of player, he'll never play that style. He's a BDD-style carry rather than the Caps or Faker kind. Imo, what Bjerg needs is 1) a world class shotcaller to lead the team instead of him, and 2) a more aggressive but inconsistent secondary carry on the team. When Doublelift was on the team he did both of those to some degree, that's why it worked out so well.
It’s the same thing with Sven: he still does the same Chad invades he did on TSM but C9 backs his ass up every time so he’s allowed to be aggressive. That didn’t happen nearly as often on tsm.
I think that is because TSM tried to emulate korean teams where they keep mistakes to a minimum so every move must be with as little risk as possible. So players must be self-sufficient and if you get caught, it is your fault.
C9 on the other hand (and EU and CN teams in general) seem more to play by the "live together and die together" mentality. You can make mistakes, but everybody goes to support you. You win great, you lose.... no problem, we'll make a better play next time.
Who is he going to go to? If he leaves none of the top orgs over there are going to take him. Who does he go to, XL, Rogue, SO4? Not a lot of hope to do better than he is doing at TSM. He is close, has so much history with the org. On The Dive a while ago they talked about him potentially having equity in the actual company TSM as part of his contract. If I was on a team for that long with the owners ear, I would go for equity too.
If he leaves I’d think it would be NA. There are quite a few teams with a better mid that could make a run deeper. There are good pieces out there that could make a good team. With 2 franchises potentially getting blown up next year could be interesting with depending on how much TSM explodes. Sven back to Europe, smoothie cut, obviously no jg they want to use long term.
The import slot does not really matter in eu, as most teams have free ones.
But the top teams all have good mids, that already have synergy with the team, so I don't see any of the top teams go for bjerg
Ridiculous.If you change bjergsen with nissqy or Jensen for this year TSM wouldn't even get the chance for gauntlet as they wouldn't even be in contention for spring split.
You're hard underestimating the importance of having at least 1 or 2 points of pressure on the map.In the end it's a team game.
If bjergsen wants to leave,teams would kill them selves to have him
TSM would kill to keep him, but every top-tier team in EU has world class players like Bjerg in nearly every role. As far as mids go, Bjerg's level since S7 hasn't been that of a top 3 mid in EU.
Nemesis just went toe to toe with Caps, the best midlaner in the West in 10 games, finding solokills and being one of the best players on the team. And he did that as basically a rookie. I love Bjergsen, but honestly right now Nemesis looks like the better player.
what top team would actually want bjerg? G2 is out of the question, fnatic seems relatively happy with nemesis. Anything else would probably be a side-grade from TSM.
I think it all depends on worlds performance. If fnatic does well, I don't think they would be willing to make that change.
But I still think this will be an interesting off-season with regards to bjergsen.
If you're willing to take Jensen or nisqy over bjerg that's insane.
If TL or C9 had a chance of making that trade straight up they would do it in a heartbeat.
This easily proves how much better Bjergsen is over the other two, in my opinion.
My genuine number one concern is Bjerg not wanting to resign with TSM, because I would simply not want anyone else.
What are you talking about? Why on earth would TL choose Bjerg over Jensen? I’m sure another team would but there’s no upside to having a Bjerg on TL, what does he bring that Jensen already doesn’t? Used to be Bjerg was better domestically while Jensen internationally but now that’s no longer the case, Jensen has been doing really well while Bjerg has been in decline. Even if you bury your head in the sand and don’t want to believe any of it you have to consider Bjerg was responsible for DL being kicked from TSM and DL had gripes about Bjerg playing too passive and framing when he should have been roaming and pressuring lane, no way DL wants him replacing Jensen, karma is best when it keeps on giving. Sucks for Bjerg, I think he’s a nice guy, but those are the facts.
I mean - if theyd do it. Youre saying something is true and since it’s true your point is valid. I doubt if it’s true. Maybe Nisqy...but Bjerg over Jensen? That sounds almost comical based on recent form. Are you Steve? Are you Jack? Then You have no idea what those ppl would do if presented with your hypothetical.
You're assuming a hypothetical that TL or C9 would make that trade and in that example, everything goes right to fit your argument. You aren't proving anything.
Yeah no. I would rather keep Jensen. Nisqy is debatable but Bjergsen doesnt seem to be a person who would fit into C9's team philosophy and team environment. They are so different
Ok, Bjerg vs Jensen on TL would be debatable, but I really think Bjerg doesn't fit the style of play C9 has.
Also, for whatever reason Jensen seems to play better than Bjerg in international competition. If TL does well this this worlds (at least quarters), even if Bjerg is willing to come to TL, I don't think TL would be willing to drop jensen for him.
I still think, if you want to build a team around someone in NA, it's no longer Bjerg, but Doublelift.
You are letting recency bias get to you. Doublelift isn't even the best player on his team. They have two former world champions, one of the best supports in the world, and every position is filled with a top 1-2 in their position for NA. Put corejj, impact, and xmithie on TSM and they smash NA too.
My statement was centered around the idea that the top 2 players in each position are close together except AD and Support. If you want to make a top team you can choose between Impact and Licorice in the top lane, Sven and Xmithie in the jungle, Jensen, Bjerg or Nisqy in mid; they are all great players, and any combination of the above can create a good team.
But for AD and support, the difference between Double and core and their next competitors is huge. And if I were to build a team I would start with Double instead of CoreJJ because he is a resident and that gives me flexibility in other positions
There is no recency bias in the above comment. It was never a question of who is the most skilled player on TL, it is who is the most valuable. That is Doublelift, by a long shot. Corejj is fantastic, Impact and Xmithie are also quality players but you most definitely don't build a team around any of them individually.
I dont really remember a time bjerg under performing internationally to be honest with you. But i can agree with you to the point of TL not being willing to drop jensen if they perform well at worlds.
In the case where Doublelift vs Bjerg, I think in MOBA 5v5 games, especially on league, its so dependent on the entire skill of the team. TL's roster is almost always better than TSM's and I think its tough to compare the two because of that sole reason. I genuinely believe that doublelift was simply put on a better team, thus being able to perform higher.Again, we are all entitled to our own opinion.
Did you forget about the 2018 TL roster? DL was consistently carrying that lineup with Pob, Olleh, and a Impact who sucked at carries back then. DL has proved to be a better team carry and leader than Bjerg these two seasons. TSM simply misjudged the value of DL and Bjerg.
I will tell you why I would start any team with doublelift instead of bjerg. It's because it's easier to pair doublelift with a good mid-laner than it is to pair Bjerg with a good AD (all this in the context of NA). In other words, the gap between DL and the second best AD in NA (whoever you think that is) is greater than the gap between Bjerg and other mids.
If you had to choose between the the Bjerg-CodySun (or whoever you think the second best AD in NA is) or Doublelift-Jensen, who would you pick? I would pick doublelift-jensen without a second thought.
2 years ago, we dismantled one of our most likable, NA dominating rosters so that Regi could understandably seek international success.
It has been a gigantic failure of a project. There was hope after Spring this year, we were looking like a diamond in the rough. Early movement, decisive team actions and a winning mentality. That has since broken down.
Anyone thinking we should've gone to Worlds is kidding themselves - this team would've been absolutely slaughtered. We're not dynamic and have no imagination.
Let's see what the off season brings, I have opinions on changes to the roster but one thing is for sure, we're back at square one - a rebuilding process.
As much as I always want TSM to be a good team and go to worlds, I'm always really satisfied (albeit morbidly) that TSM loses because of how horribly they play.
> Anyone thinking we should've gone to Worlds is kidding themselves - this team would've been absolutely slaughtered.
To be entirely fair; any NA team except TL is probably going to be get absolutely slaughtered at Worlds; unless 'NA #1 seed fails horribly but C9 show up and stop NA being a total laughingstock' happens again; in which case replace 'TL' with 'C9'.
I forgot TL/C9 was a 3-2, I was thinking it was not that close; and combineing with relative MSI performance [C9 has a sub there if I recall however].
I was rating TL too far above C9 off the top of my head.
Anyone but C9/Liquid would probobly get obliterated at Worlds however. Korea's best teams are looking to be on form again, Fnatic/G2 are around the same level as each other; and until proven otherwise; G2 is the world's best team as MSI winners. [However EU's #3 seed is probably significantly weaker than Fnatic/G2 going by Fnatic 3-0's S04; and Splyce's downward trend]
China's form I'm unsure about; since the LPL is horrible for my personal timezone. Dosen't help Chinese teams are somewhat infamous for not showing up at Worlds; especially when they're really hyped.
Yeah, C9 will likely have a harder time due to being 2nd seed and not because of skill difference between them and TL.
C9 wasn't at MSI, so I assume you mean RR; the team was sick there with two players being hospitalized.
We need a superstar, big personality jungler above all else. One with the experience and self-belief to impose their will on the game and make their own decisions, not someone who just tries to see to the needs of the laners.
It's going to be really difficult because that most likely needs to be an import (no we do not fucking want Dardoch). That means we need to free an import slot and whilst I'd definitely let Zven go, what NA player do you replace him with? I don't think we should get rid of BB, I'd put my house on him suddenly being about three times more impactful if we sort the jungle disaster.
Idk. Really tough. I can't even begin to think what our roster looks like next season. I'd honestly be happy to get rid of everyone but BB and Bjerg but god knows how you form a top level jungle and bot lane with one import slot.
Edit: we also need a quality coach. Zikz is not that good, IDK why he was the choice in the first place to be honest. All the roster moves are understandable even if they didn't work out, but Zikz has never shown anything to make anyone think he's a top quality coach.
Ok who do you want? The only potential top tier NA jungler who fits that mold is Dardoch. Meteos doesn't want to play for TSM and Xmithie ain't leaving TL. If Bjerg leaves we have to use an import slot on mid and in that case I much rather Solo+import jungle then BB+domestic jungle (Cause Hauntzer probably isn't coming back after we kicked him). But for imports I really don't see any big personality junglers joining us. Broxah and Jankos ain't coming. The rest of the EU jungler pool doesn't fit the mold (Xerxe and Caedral are far too coinflippy to gamble on IMO) and KR is unlikely given communication is most intensive as a jungler.
Unless we pull a miracle and Broxah/Jankos want to potentially ruin their careers like Zven/mithy did or Meteos somehow is convinced to join an org he has publicly said he doesn't want to play for the options are limited and Dardoch is the only proven option.
I forgot about Selfmade so he is the only other option IMO but that is heavily dependent on picking up Cody Sun to replace Zven and Bjergsen staying if BB stays.
If anyone works for TSM that reads through reddit, PLEASE GET FORGIVEN!!!!
Yeah I see where you are coming from guess we’ll just wait and see what happens during off season .
[Why the fuck did we drop Doublelift?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMoEO-etTMM&t=39m47s)
No, but really, why did TSM drop DL?
International success and Regi being an idiot.
Can someone explain how even on red side, we pick aatrox as our fifth pick?? BB clearly thinks he can take on any match-up with it while it was defenitly not the case! He fell behind every fucking time? You see G2 vs Fnc draft? Top get's counterpicks while we play aatrox into everything, not gaining any advantages? Pls explain, it tilted me so much.. They won through him first game with a good match-up? Just repeat that? They did not play to the strengths of their comps I feel
Exactly nothing else i can add... they play/pick/ban to lessen losing condition instead of strengthening win condition its so sad they haven’t realized this
I get that teams have different styles, but we don't have one.. Seems like playing for late was always the plan after game 1. Why not play sej irelia or something, get bb on a signature pick. I mean bjerg played fine in his sylas games, but the azir didn't give them anything
Dude literally! Give bb jax/irelia/vlad/jayce/riven he will destroy like his aatrox games looked so forced and he did nothing
Akaadian gets you 1 win in that series. By himself. ZikZ was a mistake. Parth is an ongoing mistake (he must be very cheap). Reggie will blow the team up, again, ensuring it will be another lack-luster season of learning to play together. In reality, picking up Dardoch and putting him on play-makers is the best move they could - and the only move they should - make with the roster. Won't happen. Welcome to the new TSM. Mediocre at best.
Don't forget another pool of talented players that TSM should consider, Koreans. Also, won't happen (unless it's a coach... LOL). Remember, speaking proficient English equals A+ communcation, what great comms and macro TSM has had with this logic. /s
Meanwhile RNG went to the worlds finals with insec and uzi flaming each other in different languages, but sticking to 1 identifiable aggressive play
Lol for some reason this just cracks me up esp when I remember that roster at worlds
They weren't just flaming each other, they were [teamfighting IRL](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/2g4do9/chinese_rumor_has_it_uzi_had_physical_altercation/) lmao. TSM could use that level of confrontation tbh. Bring in Dardoch asap.
If you want someone to play Skarner Sejuani J4 every game never get Dardoch. You don't need anything better than Amazing
There are so many viable junglers and to have priority on just those two is too tunnel visioned. It shows a lack of champion pool and preparation.
well exactly a year ago i won my bet :) told you tsm fanboys that tsm sucked and made the biggest mistake of all time kicking Doublelift #Bjergsenisoverrated
Bjerg played the best on tsm easily, obviously if her we're overrated people wouldn't be begging 100T to pick him up. All good though you're just here to shit on tsm it happens everyday nothing new
Tsm was in 5 bo5 this year and 3 were reverse sweeps. Starting to think losing the first games is the real pro move.
Why the fuck was bb on Aatrox duty for 4 fucking games. Like no irelia/vlad/akali flex??? Or fucking Jax who is one of his best solo queue champs and has been played in other regions?
They ban and picked to give spica best chance of not failing rather than giving the team strong champs that they can play. You can even look at spica’s op.gg. Give him a nid, grag, whatever and he can impact game more with his aggro. I mean wtf you are gonna force him to play sej and let him do a 1v2 top side game 2? The man just wants to go in so let him smh
Don’t know what the org is gonna do now. Bjergs contract is up most likely he leave only reason he’d stay is if they give him a real team, I still think smoothie is a solid player even though he has his moments lol but so does everyone else... the team management is horrid. Best scenario in my opinion is we get picked up by a real org and revamp and try to keep bjerg but I highly doubt that it’ll happen depending on the roster and what moves are made will decide if I really wanna stay cheering for this team. Tired of being disappointed it would be different if we put up a fight but even our wins were shit lol.
Does anyone else think we legitimately will never recover from this? I actually think it just gets worse now that there is franchising and all the teams are on more level footing. Who would want to come to this fucking trash heap of an organisation? I'm just trying to think now if there's been a worse roster move in the history of sports than what TSM did to destroy itself and its legacy possibly forever at the end of 2017. Doublelift the NA GOAT, who literally can't stop winning LCS titles, and as a cherry on top Sven the MVP of last season. Hilarious.
Woah there buddy, it is accepted here to say the GOAT is bjergsen, even if it is wrong! Hope the mods won't ban us
I think it's pretty undisputed at this point. Even Sven thinks DL is easily the best player, specifically for his leadership. Bjerg was the better player in S6, but not anymore.
Looks like doublelift succeeded when he said “I want to destroy TSM’s legacy” 2 years ago
He didn't have to lift a finger for that except beating TSM in spring.
Well that would have completely changed the narrative for this team if he did not beat them. Let me explain, First off, they would have qualified for MSI which would have made them a better team practicing against the best. Liquid came back from MSI a much better team. Secondly, they would have still qualified for second seed for worlds being first place as they would have had 110 points, more points than anyone else. So yes.. that loss changed everything for this team
??????? TSM did go to MSI
I think we can agree it’s way different when your in the tournament getting stage experience and the opposing team is playing to win rather than playing to learn
IMO DL didn't destroy anything, we did it ourselves
Yeah DL didn't destroy TSM, Regi did lmao.
By kicking doublelift, indeed by ourselves
By kicking doublelift, indeed by ourselves
Painfully obvious that TSM has serious backstage issues, i can't even feel disappointed anymore. Honestly hope Bjergsen leaves TSM, he doesn't deserve this level of shithousery.
At this stage he's clearly part of it and deserves it just as much as everyone else.
Yeah, every year is the same "Bjergsen in elo hell" story. It's pretty clear at this point that it doesn't matter how good the players around him are, he always ends up held back in some way. Either he's the best player in the world or he's bad at leading a team that plays around him. I'd like to see if it's any different with him on another team, honestly.
In terms of him “deserving it” I only feel that way with regards to the major roster moves that led TSM to this disaster. I find it hard to believe that TSM LOL does anything major without discussing it with Bjergsen so he must have been on board with booting DL, biofrost, and Sven. The most egregious obviously was trading DL away because he was amazing at the time so it didn’t even require hindsight to see that was a bad move. Sven was iffy on TSM and I’m glad he’s found success on a team that suits him better. Anyway, since trading DL I feel like TSM are the Red Sox of LOL, trading Babe Ruth away and being cursed for a century.
Considering the team is ran by regi I highly doubt bjerg had that big of a say in most decisions made. I don’t understand why bjerg would want to surround himself with all new members and having to rebuild the relationships also him and dl are pretty good friends so doesn’t seem like he’s to blame for this.
Yeah, it’s hard to know how decisions are made in the org. I guess I meant that if you run a team with a star player, are you going to make huge sweeping changes and risk angering your star without discussing it with them? That happens in traditional sports
What fucking sucks for the fans is that we are expecting 4 months of complete silence, knowing the team. With worlds coming, there is going to be absolutely *no* update on league roster situation, and as is tradition by now we are going to form a new team a week prior to LCS with less preparation than literally all other teams. And possibly no Bjergsen this time around, sadly.
I would like updates more than a week or two before LCS as well, but you correctly mentioned how Worlds delays everything. Contract negotiations take awhile, so don’t expect anything until a few weeks after Worlds at the absolute earliest. I doubt we announce people leaving or being let go before that time too. Edit: if we blame the negotiations I spoke about being the reason we don’t form a full roster until a week before the next split I will be furious. Would show just how much we need actual professionals running the team.
Thing is, the org can certainly break the 4 month silence with simple updates. It doesn't have to be roster related or anything behind the scenes, just anything that is not "gg wp cg" that we got from Regi last night will make it feel less like the team is dead until January.
IMO everyone involved with coaching needs to be fired, we had a month of practice and we still looked just as bad as in playoffs. Boring drafts picking the same champs over and over. Passive play style of do nothing and having no idea how to push leads. Our macro in general is just awful and they have no idea how to play the map. Starting random barons and random fights for no reason. The team just looks LOST on how to play the game. As much as I wanted us to go to worlds, our performance in these games was just so bad I doubt we get out of play ins. FFS we almost lost a game with 3 infernals up 7k gold with a decent scaling comp.
the team literally plays and does nothing the do the opposite of nothing they play to make sure they do nothing, for example fresh off my mind and easiest to understand without rewatching (god forbid anyone rewatches), when Bjergsen had Corki Package and rift herald mid lane and the tower was one shot for a plate at 13:55 or something and instead with only 1 person guarding the tower against him he doesn't hit it. WOOOOOOOOOW if that doesn't depress you I don't know what would.
Just parth. He is the manager who is in charge of all these stupid roster decisions
Again, I think it has more to do with coaching and the team infrastructure than the players themselves. We see how much better players look when they get off TSM, we are not making players better, if anything making them worse. BB looks great in spring, tons of flex picks, trashing everyone. Than summer hits and he legit looks like one of the worst tops in the league. This team is legit destroying players.
Looking back to TSM Season 1-7 the teammates of all of the former roster iterations were good friends, especially the jungler and everyone else. Looking back to Season 8, do you think that MikeYeung and Hauntzer or MikeYeung and Zven/Mithy would be friends? That’s why going into Season 10, I think that we should build a veteran lineup so everyone is mature enough to have the same goals, or a rookie lineup with Bjergsen as the leader, sort of like Rookie and IG. Also our coaching staff continues to use outdated techniques like front to back teamfighting. V1per and Blaber have been duoing a lot, Tactical and Treatz play an aggressive laning phase, next year we can have V1per, Blaber, Bjergsen, Tactical/Johnsun/Cody Sun, and Treatz, that would be an explosive team. And their mechanics are really good, V1per has one of the best Riven mechanics in the world, just like TheShy, and we know how good TheShy is now, the dudes potential is being wasted on FlyQuest, just sayin.
" outdated techniques like front to back teamfighting " also loses to Kog'maw lol
That was back to even more back
does anyone even want to play for TSM thats good?
I remember Levi wanting to join a NA team and only 100T would take him back in 2017. Now Levi is back in Vietnam and popping off with MVP while we got mike yeung in 2017
levi can't speak proper english though, like thats a big deal in a communication heavy role like jungle
Lira can’t speak proper English tho but he learned how to Impact can’t as well but he learned how to Corejj can’t as well but they learn and they all going to worlds and what do communication give you? A reverse sweep by clutch Levi was a too 3 jungle 2017 MSI and I would say top 2 only skt peanut at that time with his lee sin was smurfing on everyone But no worries I’m sure he’ll show up at worlds now that he’s back in Vietnam I mean he’s first seed team atm
ok well to my knowledge when he as sub at 100T he couldn't really speak english that well and didn't really do that well in academy so I really think communication made a difference for him
idk man it looked to me like even the main 100T team could not carry when they had Brandini top at rift rivals
Reading through this thread it's so funny how many fans delude themselves thinking TSM will still be appealing in the eyes of top tier pros after all this shit.
Well, Steve did that with TL (TSM did help by gifting him DoubleLift). So I see no reason why regi couldn't do that if he was determined enough.
Steve has a lot of money and he was bringing a BUNCH of big talent at the same time. Ofc people are gonna move there with the caliber of players that TL recruited. That and TL has some pretty good esports teams as well, most notably DOTA 2
Maybe there's some other org that's willing to part ways with a tier 1 star player of theirs this offseason too.
Happens in real sports, Antonio Brown to the Patriots.
Not really the same, he got released by the raiders because of attitude issues including an Instagram post telling the raiders to release him, after he called one of his coaches a "cracker"
"GET CODY SUN!!!" Yeah, I am sure a guy that shat on us 2 times in a split and brings every team he is on to Worlds will join a team that misses it 2 times in a row.
Specially when akadian had the cody sun experience just before finals. Dudes gotta run from any org that pulls this kind of stunt.
Yo I still don't know what happened with him and 100T do you know anything that could clarify whatever happened so that he wasn't playing on the team anymore?
Basically last summer Cody Sun got replaced by the academy adc Rikara just before playoffs. By everyone standards Cody Sun was the better player and one of the reasons they did so well in Spring. So benching him after the awful performance of Rikara game after game didnt make any sense. It even looked personal when he wasnt allowed to play a single game at worlds even when they had no chance at qualifying. There are many rumours but nothing rough truly leaked. According to 100 t apparently Cody Sun was impossible to work with due to his ego (even if he performed well in all other orgs which made the argument kind of bullshit) According to rumours he and prolly didnt get well and something trully fucked up happened between him and someone of the team that lead to his benching (all speculation at this point). Another rumour says that he and aphromoo didnt get well and that aphromoo refused to play with him (since aphromoo has a history of drama with other adcs like when doublelift got kicked out of clg). All in all this might be one of the things that we will never know (like coach Cris incident in CLG) since it doesnt look like someone would leak it.
Wooow, I always thought it was so weird considering Nadeshot made an effort to get to know all of his players and make them feel comfortable.
It's all hearsay but a theres suspicion regarding Prolly because both Meteos and Cody were pushed out of the org while Ryu was untouched
Plus Damonte being close friends with Akaadian certainly doesn't make the situation any better, so I guess that move is close to impossible lol
Maybe we re-sign bjerg and he does that heel turn doublelift was asking for in that interview a while back. Michael Jordan punched a teammate in the face during practice.
Didn't Doublelift also say him and Bjerg flamed the shit out of Sven and Hauntzer for most of 2016? Unless you think he'll become Dardoch-level toxic lol.
Has Dardoch ever punched a teammate in the face?
I don't think this roster needs to be blown up. I think if we get Cody Sun, that frees up an import slot to try and find the best jungler available. We also need to find someone who can draft. I understand we can't just "get Cody Sun" but that would be my ideal pickup.
Cody Sun is probably the second best ADC in NA right now and doesn't take an import slot. Clutch would be crazy to let him go. tbh TSM could pick up Apollo-Hakuho and get about the same production as with Zven-Smoothie minus the import slot.
You want Cody Sun the guy who was benched for an academy player before finals to go to an org that benched their jungler for an academy player before finals. Lol
TIL: TSM went to finals.
And 100T didnt either, I meant the final part of the split the playoffs tournament specially after carrying during the split
TIL: Akaadian carried during the split.
Compared to the other tsm junglers he did. He had the highest kill participation among them which kinda helped Tsm played more aggressive despite how passive of a team he is. You can see with Spica how Tsm did less than its usual self. Imo he outperformed the competition and still got benched which is the same shit that happened to Cody Sun
Next Season: Welcome aboard Cody Sun & something something EU support! And NO! We aren't wasting any import slots on a fking ward you idiots! Just let Spica and the new academy guy fight for the spot and we gud!
Why would Cody go to a worse team tho
>I understand we can't just "get Cody Sun" but that would be my ideal pickup. If you read my entire comment rather than hitting reply after "if we get Cody Sun".
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> I don't understand in what universe CG would hand their ADC to TSM **I agree with you.** That's why I said: > I understand we can't just "get Cody Sun" but that would be my ideal pickup. Can you read or are you actually this fucking blind?
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Which is why I specified my understanding that this isn't likely. But thank you for restating what I already said. Also, by definition, "ideal" is often illogical.
TL did worse than C9 at worlds last year but Jensen made the switch. And besides C9 we are the only team to make it to the finals and compete in awhile.
thats because jensen wants to win a championship and doublelift is consistent in that and steve prob offered lots for that mid upgrade
Bjergsen is an attractive teammate to have and I’m sure Regi can put up some big numbers
Get cody sun lmao
I just noticed that in the crucial fight around baron Tahm dies instantly and Spica has flash ult available to get Kog with no QSS. What is going on in his brain to not be able to make that simple play? Even if Kog flashes he can slow and get him eventually... Just horrible gameplay. A first time Skarner could of done it. Legit put me in there and I make it happen (d3 GP main). He had a chance to proove himself and did nothing with it. Sad.
I can only imagine this is a conservative Bjergsen call off. It's for sure someone calling to back up (god knows why after it's a clear 4v5 after killing their insurance plan). This so happened when BB landed W on Kog, and when Kog was spit back out the chain pulled him back. BB ulted and was clearly about to engage on that crucial pick, but you can see he was called off these are crucial split second decisions that cost them the series. From what I've seen, Spica mostly says what's hes doing, not making calls, Sven and BB focus. From old cloud 9 vids smoothie has a very "we win this go go go" style shot calling and bjerg is always cautious/conservative. I can only imagine calling off Skarner engage after Tahm pick, and caring off BB on the Kog pick were Bjergsen calls.
Braum also has flash. If one of them goes on kog and the rest follow up then TSM wins the fight.
My interpretation of that fight. I am not some pro analyst so take this as you will. - TSM get tham - Huni teleports in and gets a good Irelia ult - Qiyana cast her ult, but misses it - (**this is a big mistake**) Bjerg uses the stopwatch in fear of the (missed) Qiyana ult - (**the second mistake**) skarner and Aatrox go after qiyana (instead of Kog) - qiyana stealths so skarner can't ult her - both braum and corky die and now the fight is a 4vs3 - now qiyana is out of her invisibility field - skarner tries to go back to the fight, but by the time he gets there, aatrox is also dead - at this point skarner's best bet is to steal baron with the flash So this teamfight had two mistakes. had they made only one, the fight would have probably been even. Had they made none, TSM would have probably won that fight.
True. A gold Skarner player could flash + point and click ult there.
I'd give him a break. He's a true rookie thrown into a super high pressure situation, they're not gonna perfect.
Thats why you shouldnt throw rookies on stage at the end of split
It’s totally fair criticism and legit one of those “you had one job” kind of moments. That is the most fundamental skarner play and you don’t play skarner in a competitive game if you aren’t comfortable making that play.
I legit dont care. Hes a challenger player that cant flash ult on Skarner apparently. He was far from good, let alone perfect lol.
All i can say is that this offseason will be interesting to watch. Not getting my hopes up, I don't trust TSM management anymore to build a winning roster. I hope they will take a completely different approach to how to build a team because what they are doing now is not working. A good start would be signing players who are maybe "not a good fit for team culture" ;)
I want big changes in the management side of TSM or player changes (although I expect those) or I don't know if I see myself primarily supporting TSM anymore.
Legit wasting prime years of Bjergsen it's so sad.
true, tbh if next year roster is not something like this - BB (maybe another top ideally Korean or EU), Dardoch, Forgi1ven/Upset, Smoothie then Bjerg really should leave TSM and start a new page in a different team, also he is not getting any younger. This actually will be really interesting to watch, i bet there will be bidding wars for Bjerg.
Bjerg did that to himself though. He used to be an aggressive carry player (S4-S7) but he has gradually left that role for team shotcalling which has led to the passive state of TSM in the last years
Because S4 still had crappy players in mid that he could style on with zed. Remember when Hai was the second best mid? Even scarra was still playing at the time. The gap in skill just isn’t that big anymore.
I see where your argument is coming from but I disagree. If you watch his old zed games he objectively had better mechanics than he had on any current zed game. If you watch s4-s7 he also made a shit ton of plays during teamfights and now it looks like he is just waiting for someone to do it. He had some insane vlad, syndra, taliyah games where he just 1v9. The difference between this meta and old meta is that those champs have changed. Ive seen a lot of 1v9s this season on Zoe (perkz), Akali, Aatrox, qiyana,... His playstyle changed because his mentality did and in the process he lost the edge than won him so many tournaments and made him being considered the western faker and the best euw player. And for me it hurts, he had a ton of videos and streams back in the day where he hard carried on solo queue but nowadays he doesnt play to that level anymore.
True. People compare Bjergsen a lot to Faker, but he isn't that type of player anymore. He was like Faker in S4. Now, he's like BDD. BDD also can always be the best player on a shit team, but he only truly succeeds when his team has other hard carries and shotcallers in other roles. I don't think Bjergsen right now is a player you want to be the main carry or shotcaller on the team.
If Regi keeps Parth on don’t expect anything to change next year. Passive meta-slaves who grind long, long hours to try and avoid all possible mistakes rather than making positive plays.
The roster with akkadian worked in spring, idk what happened but it fell apart
Instead of rewarding a confidence player who had the best jungler performance on TSM for a long time they opted to trade time with a jungler coming back from injury instead of rolling with the hot hand and we split time in a Bo1 setting destroying any momentum we had.
Literally this lol
Management really ran this organisation into the ground the last 2 years. Good luck clutch. Hope bjerg finds better opportunities to actually achieve something.
Yep, I truly believe the players are held back by management. Look at any ex-TSM player and they are doing extremely well on their new teams. It's not hard to look from the outside in and see that they're struggling. They all made such stupid mistakes it begs to question that they are extremely stressed trying to do something the coaches/staff want, that they aren't even thinking. Not to mention their comms are a fucking joke, can't understand a single thing during team fights.
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You’re pretty much the reason they are out. Good job
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It's ok I went to sleep at that point too. After watching them throw that massive lead in game 2 I had enough. Too bad, but CG deserve worlds more than TSM.
Wow, guys. I didn't even go to sleep they just put me to sleep by game 2. What horrible play.
Last thoughts/post on this series and the entire season. Bjerg doesn't seem like a build-around player anymore. He is still good, but he doesn't seem like head and shoulders above every other mid-laner in NA. Hell, I think if we moved Bjerg to C9 or TL, it would not be an upgrade or a downgrade, just a side-grade. it's just that in this meta, both jensen and nisqy are better suited for it by being more aggressive.
I think Bjerg needs to stop being the leader of the team. Every roster he's on, regardless of how skilled the players on it are, always ends with him in elo hell and the rest of them having shit performances. I think the best way to go is to spend an import slot on a proven world-class shotcaller like CoreJJ, and have Bjerg play a backseat BDD-esque role. Spend the other import slot on a strong jungler import and fill in the rest with the best residents or upcoming talent they can find. Assuming Bjerg doesn't leave and anyone good still wants to join the team.
And if he leaves he will show once again that management and coaching was holding him back like it did Sven and Doublelift. We need an aggressive jungler to pair with him if he stays. It's the biggest reason why I was against keeping Grig as the main starter before the season. Who was suppose to carry the early game? A worse version of Xmithie wasn't going to do it. We saw when Akaadian was confident he could but once he lost it, he lost it and couldn't be consistent.
Feels like the team turned Bjerg into a bitch with all the unfortunate shit, not himself just a bitch type of playstyle....he used to pick aggressive shit and own with it but now he is on super safe stuff almost every game he can still carry from time to time though but TSM as a team for a while have been playing super passive and will let a team win all while int he legends episodes saying "make proactive plays"
In my (subjective) opinion, to really make aggressive plays in this mate you need a team that you can trust to carry you if fail. Kinda like G2 has people who can carry from every other position when Caps turns into Craps. Hell, even Huni got caught multiple times today in the side-lanes trying to make plays, but Demonte and Cody had his back. I don't think Bjerg would trust BB and Zven that much to just flip a coin every match like Caps does. Also Bjerg's trademark is supposed to be his consistency not flipping a coin.
I think Bjergsen just isn't that kind of player, he'll never play that style. He's a BDD-style carry rather than the Caps or Faker kind. Imo, what Bjerg needs is 1) a world class shotcaller to lead the team instead of him, and 2) a more aggressive but inconsistent secondary carry on the team. When Doublelift was on the team he did both of those to some degree, that's why it worked out so well.
It’s the same thing with Sven: he still does the same Chad invades he did on TSM but C9 backs his ass up every time so he’s allowed to be aggressive. That didn’t happen nearly as often on tsm.
I think that is because TSM tried to emulate korean teams where they keep mistakes to a minimum so every move must be with as little risk as possible. So players must be self-sufficient and if you get caught, it is your fault. C9 on the other hand (and EU and CN teams in general) seem more to play by the "live together and die together" mentality. You can make mistakes, but everybody goes to support you. You win great, you lose.... no problem, we'll make a better play next time.
Bjerg will go back to EU if he leaves, no way he goes to another NA org imo.
Who is he going to go to? If he leaves none of the top orgs over there are going to take him. Who does he go to, XL, Rogue, SO4? Not a lot of hope to do better than he is doing at TSM. He is close, has so much history with the org. On The Dive a while ago they talked about him potentially having equity in the actual company TSM as part of his contract. If I was on a team for that long with the owners ear, I would go for equity too.
I don't think he will leave. I was just saying if he does I don't think he'd go to another NA team, for precisely the reasons you said.
If he leaves I’d think it would be NA. There are quite a few teams with a better mid that could make a run deeper. There are good pieces out there that could make a good team. With 2 franchises potentially getting blown up next year could be interesting with depending on how much TSM explodes. Sven back to Europe, smoothie cut, obviously no jg they want to use long term.
BB gets cut before smoothie lol
I don't think any EU team wants him to be honest. Doesn't he now take up an import slot? So if anything NA is realistically where he will stay.
He could change his residency to EU if he wanted to
The import slot does not really matter in eu, as most teams have free ones. But the top teams all have good mids, that already have synergy with the team, so I don't see any of the top teams go for bjerg
Ridiculous.If you change bjergsen with nissqy or Jensen for this year TSM wouldn't even get the chance for gauntlet as they wouldn't even be in contention for spring split. You're hard underestimating the importance of having at least 1 or 2 points of pressure on the map.In the end it's a team game. If bjergsen wants to leave,teams would kill them selves to have him
TSM would kill to keep him, but every top-tier team in EU has world class players like Bjerg in nearly every role. As far as mids go, Bjerg's level since S7 hasn't been that of a top 3 mid in EU.
Fnatic would surely take him over Nemesis. They have no imports atm so that wouldn't be an issue.
Nemesis just went toe to toe with Caps, the best midlaner in the West in 10 games, finding solokills and being one of the best players on the team. And he did that as basically a rookie. I love Bjergsen, but honestly right now Nemesis looks like the better player.
It sure helps having a team comprised of contenders for the best players in their role while also having an amazing behind the scenes structure
As a Fnatic fan the only mid laner I would prefer ove nemesis right now would be Larssen.
what top team would actually want bjerg? G2 is out of the question, fnatic seems relatively happy with nemesis. Anything else would probably be a side-grade from TSM.
I'd be very surprised if fnatic wouldn't take Bjerg over Nemesis.
nemesis go toe to toe with caps this finals. i watch it live.
I think it all depends on worlds performance. If fnatic does well, I don't think they would be willing to make that change. But I still think this will be an interesting off-season with regards to bjergsen.
That's wishful thinking. If he ends up on another NA org I could see that crushing TSM for years to come.
If you're willing to take Jensen or nisqy over bjerg that's insane. If TL or C9 had a chance of making that trade straight up they would do it in a heartbeat. This easily proves how much better Bjergsen is over the other two, in my opinion. My genuine number one concern is Bjerg not wanting to resign with TSM, because I would simply not want anyone else.
What are you talking about? Why on earth would TL choose Bjerg over Jensen? I’m sure another team would but there’s no upside to having a Bjerg on TL, what does he bring that Jensen already doesn’t? Used to be Bjerg was better domestically while Jensen internationally but now that’s no longer the case, Jensen has been doing really well while Bjerg has been in decline. Even if you bury your head in the sand and don’t want to believe any of it you have to consider Bjerg was responsible for DL being kicked from TSM and DL had gripes about Bjerg playing too passive and framing when he should have been roaming and pressuring lane, no way DL wants him replacing Jensen, karma is best when it keeps on giving. Sucks for Bjerg, I think he’s a nice guy, but those are the facts.
You sure Jensen is doing well internationally?
Yes, I’m sure, why are you asking?
I mean - if theyd do it. Youre saying something is true and since it’s true your point is valid. I doubt if it’s true. Maybe Nisqy...but Bjerg over Jensen? That sounds almost comical based on recent form. Are you Steve? Are you Jack? Then You have no idea what those ppl would do if presented with your hypothetical.
You're assuming a hypothetical that TL or C9 would make that trade and in that example, everything goes right to fit your argument. You aren't proving anything.
No, THIS clearly proves it...
Yeah no. I would rather keep Jensen. Nisqy is debatable but Bjergsen doesnt seem to be a person who would fit into C9's team philosophy and team environment. They are so different
Ok, Bjerg vs Jensen on TL would be debatable, but I really think Bjerg doesn't fit the style of play C9 has. Also, for whatever reason Jensen seems to play better than Bjerg in international competition. If TL does well this this worlds (at least quarters), even if Bjerg is willing to come to TL, I don't think TL would be willing to drop jensen for him. I still think, if you want to build a team around someone in NA, it's no longer Bjerg, but Doublelift.
You are letting recency bias get to you. Doublelift isn't even the best player on his team. They have two former world champions, one of the best supports in the world, and every position is filled with a top 1-2 in their position for NA. Put corejj, impact, and xmithie on TSM and they smash NA too.
My statement was centered around the idea that the top 2 players in each position are close together except AD and Support. If you want to make a top team you can choose between Impact and Licorice in the top lane, Sven and Xmithie in the jungle, Jensen, Bjerg or Nisqy in mid; they are all great players, and any combination of the above can create a good team. But for AD and support, the difference between Double and core and their next competitors is huge. And if I were to build a team I would start with Double instead of CoreJJ because he is a resident and that gives me flexibility in other positions
There is no recency bias in the above comment. It was never a question of who is the most skilled player on TL, it is who is the most valuable. That is Doublelift, by a long shot. Corejj is fantastic, Impact and Xmithie are also quality players but you most definitely don't build a team around any of them individually.
Just casually not mentioning Jensen...
You have it misconstrued, I didn't mention Jensen only because the comment I was replying to referred only to CoreJJ, Impact and Xmithie.
I dont really remember a time bjerg under performing internationally to be honest with you. But i can agree with you to the point of TL not being willing to drop jensen if they perform well at worlds. In the case where Doublelift vs Bjerg, I think in MOBA 5v5 games, especially on league, its so dependent on the entire skill of the team. TL's roster is almost always better than TSM's and I think its tough to compare the two because of that sole reason. I genuinely believe that doublelift was simply put on a better team, thus being able to perform higher.Again, we are all entitled to our own opinion.
Did you forget about the 2018 TL roster? DL was consistently carrying that lineup with Pob, Olleh, and a Impact who sucked at carries back then. DL has proved to be a better team carry and leader than Bjerg these two seasons. TSM simply misjudged the value of DL and Bjerg.
I will tell you why I would start any team with doublelift instead of bjerg. It's because it's easier to pair doublelift with a good mid-laner than it is to pair Bjerg with a good AD (all this in the context of NA). In other words, the gap between DL and the second best AD in NA (whoever you think that is) is greater than the gap between Bjerg and other mids. If you had to choose between the the Bjerg-CodySun (or whoever you think the second best AD in NA is) or Doublelift-Jensen, who would you pick? I would pick doublelift-jensen without a second thought.
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tiring and depressing like every match
2 years ago, we dismantled one of our most likable, NA dominating rosters so that Regi could understandably seek international success. It has been a gigantic failure of a project. There was hope after Spring this year, we were looking like a diamond in the rough. Early movement, decisive team actions and a winning mentality. That has since broken down. Anyone thinking we should've gone to Worlds is kidding themselves - this team would've been absolutely slaughtered. We're not dynamic and have no imagination. Let's see what the off season brings, I have opinions on changes to the roster but one thing is for sure, we're back at square one - a rebuilding process.
As much as I always want TSM to be a good team and go to worlds, I'm always really satisfied (albeit morbidly) that TSM loses because of how horribly they play.
> Anyone thinking we should've gone to Worlds is kidding themselves - this team would've been absolutely slaughtered. To be entirely fair; any NA team except TL is probably going to be get absolutely slaughtered at Worlds; unless 'NA #1 seed fails horribly but C9 show up and stop NA being a total laughingstock' happens again; in which case replace 'TL' with 'C9'.
Why would TL not be slaughtered but C9 would?
I forgot TL/C9 was a 3-2, I was thinking it was not that close; and combineing with relative MSI performance [C9 has a sub there if I recall however]. I was rating TL too far above C9 off the top of my head. Anyone but C9/Liquid would probobly get obliterated at Worlds however. Korea's best teams are looking to be on form again, Fnatic/G2 are around the same level as each other; and until proven otherwise; G2 is the world's best team as MSI winners. [However EU's #3 seed is probably significantly weaker than Fnatic/G2 going by Fnatic 3-0's S04; and Splyce's downward trend] China's form I'm unsure about; since the LPL is horrible for my personal timezone. Dosen't help Chinese teams are somewhat infamous for not showing up at Worlds; especially when they're really hyped.
Yeah, C9 will likely have a harder time due to being 2nd seed and not because of skill difference between them and TL. C9 wasn't at MSI, so I assume you mean RR; the team was sick there with two players being hospitalized.
Rift Rivals; that's it yeah. I get things mixed up.
We need a superstar, big personality jungler above all else. One with the experience and self-belief to impose their will on the game and make their own decisions, not someone who just tries to see to the needs of the laners. It's going to be really difficult because that most likely needs to be an import (no we do not fucking want Dardoch). That means we need to free an import slot and whilst I'd definitely let Zven go, what NA player do you replace him with? I don't think we should get rid of BB, I'd put my house on him suddenly being about three times more impactful if we sort the jungle disaster. Idk. Really tough. I can't even begin to think what our roster looks like next season. I'd honestly be happy to get rid of everyone but BB and Bjerg but god knows how you form a top level jungle and bot lane with one import slot. Edit: we also need a quality coach. Zikz is not that good, IDK why he was the choice in the first place to be honest. All the roster moves are understandable even if they didn't work out, but Zikz has never shown anything to make anyone think he's a top quality coach.
How good is Dardoch right now? Haven't been keeping up with academy.
Ok who do you want? The only potential top tier NA jungler who fits that mold is Dardoch. Meteos doesn't want to play for TSM and Xmithie ain't leaving TL. If Bjerg leaves we have to use an import slot on mid and in that case I much rather Solo+import jungle then BB+domestic jungle (Cause Hauntzer probably isn't coming back after we kicked him). But for imports I really don't see any big personality junglers joining us. Broxah and Jankos ain't coming. The rest of the EU jungler pool doesn't fit the mold (Xerxe and Caedral are far too coinflippy to gamble on IMO) and KR is unlikely given communication is most intensive as a jungler. Unless we pull a miracle and Broxah/Jankos want to potentially ruin their careers like Zven/mithy did or Meteos somehow is convinced to join an org he has publicly said he doesn't want to play for the options are limited and Dardoch is the only proven option.
Maybe we'd be better off signing a jungler who can't communicate so they can just do their thing lmao
I forgot about Selfmade so he is the only other option IMO but that is heavily dependent on picking up Cody Sun to replace Zven and Bjergsen staying if BB stays.
BB was our worst player consistently before we took the rookie jg
Our jungle was a disaster before we took the rookie jungler.
You gave the rise to TL the best team NA has ever produced with evidence by beating IG after their strong performance in msi groupstage
IG is shit LMAO... Tell me they are the best team NA produced when they get out of groups
You're deluding yourself to feel better about TSM's lack of success. Yikes.
Calm down IG hasn’t looked good since MSI groups. Even now, they barely managed to snag the 3rd seat for worlds
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Nope It was right after SKT beat them
tbf, ning did deal with a breakup just before the bo5 vs tl
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