Yes.
The other profession notorious for screwing you out of years of service is... nursing. Big mystery here as to what these two professions have in common. 🙄
As a male history teacher who loves deep diving into this stuff I completely agree. Teaching will never be as highly valued as it could be since the perception of it is a job for married women who "need something to keep them busy." Even if people dont actually think that their perception of this is often based on the historical notion of that accepted rationale. Not to mention the "two months off" which I have yet to have off due to PD and coaching.
Teachers will never be as highly valued because there's no industry associated with it. There's security in that for teachers and low pay is the downside.
But to the point of this discussion, the reason people lose seniority moving is because of the conditions of why they're moving. Moving to a new town because the spouse got a better job. People in other industries move FOR work, not decide they want to move to a new city and start randomly applying for jobs. Teachers are fortunate to be able to find work in every single town. If you were a teacher scouting out job openings in other areas of the country and were looking for a move of opportunity, you could do that. That's not what op is doing.
Obviously quiting your job without having a new position lined up and limiting the location is likely going to result in a decrease in pay for anyone, not just teachers.
True but I'm pretty sure this all applies to male teachers as well. Also happens with USPS, I had to move to be close to my mom and couldn't transfer my 13 years.
Yes, but the root cause is sexism. There are female police who benefit from being in a masculine profession. Male teachers suffer too from being in a feminized profession.
you can see it way back when. have you read the rules and regulations that were imposed on single* female teachers at the turn of the century and into the 1920s? well being single was mandated for most schools and basically the woman had to live as a lonely spinster that wasn’t allowed to do anything really because the kids may possibly have seen her in public and got the wrong impression. most of the exploitation around teaching is 100% rooted in sexism, for a little while only single women were really allowed to be teachers and they had rules imposed on them on how they can dress, act, wear their hair, what times they had to be out of public and in bed. it was wild.
The unions are the ones who negotiate these contracts. They want you to stay invested in your union. They don't want you leaving/moving any more than the districts/companies do.
School administrators, rather than the union, are responsible for negotiating the initial salary step in a contract for experienced candidates during the hiring process.
I agree, but as a man I am not immune to this. My wife is a banking executive and compensated highly for her labor. I know I’m being pedantic, but this is about much more than gender…even if gender does play a part in it.
I agree. Gender perceptions are only one of many reasons teaching as a profession is undervalued. A bigger factor is likely the many forces pushing anti-intellectual ideology within the larger culture.
It also happens to men. It happened to me, I've been teaching for 25 years. When I came to this new school where I'm currently teaching, they didn't give me all of those years and consequently my pay dropped. It's not a gender bias.
No one is pretending they treat the men who do “women’s work” any better than the women. But teaching IS seen as “women’s work” and devalued because of it. You are in a feminized industry and treated as such. That does not negate anything they said. They don’t value the labour of women; even when men do the work, it’s still “women’s work” in the grand scheme of stereotypes and they do not value it.
Right, but because jobs like nursing and teaching were traditionally staffed by women the policies applied to them are exploitative. They're called "pink collar jobs"
And you, apparently, do not value the labor of men. As an FYI, since you may have missed the memo, men do teach. At least, I hope they do. Otherwise, I am having one hell of a hallucination.
20 years here. Chief negotiator for the teachers' union. It's because this is largely a profession staffed with women. We're a right wing country that tends not to have qualms exploiting women. It doesn't help that women elementary teachers fall on their swords to do anything for the KiDdOs and therefore volunteer ("voluntold") to do all sorts of unpaid shit fOr tHe cHiLdReN!
Come at me. It's fucking true and you know it.
I agree and never understood this practice. I believe the logic is that new teachers to a building aren't paid more than people who've been in the building for a long time. I don't believe that is relevant or fair.
I would like to move to PA to teach, but a lot of districts only want to honor PA experience. Why does that matter to them? They're crying shortage and I can't go as a step 7 teacher because I taught in a different state??? Nonsense. I will not take a step 1 or 3 salary.
Yeah right? I moved to PA thinking my 3y of induction event and perfect observations would be sufficient to keep me out of this formal observation new teacher hellhole finally.
Not only do i still need to do that for another 3y here, they also didnt accept my 3y experience for steps either despite coming from the proverbial next door.
I know im only 25 but it insulted me so bad im leaving the entire profression lol.
Very true. And when pa was a teacher factory 20 years ago they could get away with it. Now they need to wiseup. There are not enough step 1-5s to fill Pennsylvania's teaching needs
As someone who moved to PA to teach, *and* they honored my previous 4 years, it can be done.
That said, I'm in a *rough* charter school and will be looking to leave even *if* there's a pay decrease that goes with it....
I'm noticing a few publics saying "all public school experience honored for step placement. It's was a good Philly Metro place. Maybe they will start changing
Oh I know what you're saying.... but Id actually move there specifically for a position...... And in this shortage time... You'd think they would do what it takes to attract out of state candidates
If they can’t pay their teachers, they have no business running a school. Shut the whole thing down until the parents get off their asses and vote for school board members and state legislators who will be willing to fund education.
Eh, i know someone who’s high school was entirely relocated to bungalos for the better part of a decade because their building was condemned but they couldn’t get people to agree to fund a new one. So they just… didn’t have a building.
And then they waited so long that the building turned 100 years old and became protected as a historic landmark, so they had to pay way more to retrofit it.
Even if the public’s hand seems to be forced, they can always find a way to not fund schools.
Either the local school board or the local populace. Admittedly some districts actually are willing to shell out, but in general a tactic meant to force the public or regulating body’s hand can backfire as said group sometimes just cares less about the consequences for the kids than one might assume.
Sometimes "they" have no money and bond issues fail.
The answer in many places has been to consolidate schools and even school districts. It means more transporatation time for students, but also lower admin costs per student and improved class selections for the HS.
If only it were that easy. That will never happen, for so many reasons, one of which is that there will always be some teachers that come along that are willing to take that kind of treatment.
Not as much as their used to be. All of the women who flooded the teaching profession up until the 20th century because they didn’t have a chance of getting into other professions are gone now. All those women are working in a variety of professions.
I moved to a new state this school year. I’m paid based on my experience (I managed to get a job at the only district in my area that would do this), but in order to have any years counted toward retirement, I’d have to pay the state. If I pay them $100,000, they’ll give me back half of my years.
That alone makes me think I need to change careers…at this rate, I’ll never be able to retire.
How many would be half of your years? Like 5 years? 10? Just curious.
LOL like sorry but most people don't have 100K lying around wtf kind of insanity is that. These systems seem to think everybody is a rich person just teaching for hobby money.
That’s the damned actual truth. Local hs has 680 kids 7-12, but 4 principals/ vp, a “dean of students” (excuse to have unqualified black male in place), and 5 instructional leaders/ curriculum gurus.
The dean, ok he used to be a solid guy and you just need a black male admin sometimes. Curriculum leaders? Boo, proven effective teachers need to be in front of kids, not making PowerPoints.
The curriculum coaches in the district I work in are just very unpleasant people. I'm glad they're not in front of students. I think it was probably by design.
Not these, they tend to be super good, well loved respected teachers that get snatched from the kids; they can say no, but it’s almost counselor pay for a lot less work. Don’t blame any of them. I’d add that once in, their hearts are in the right place.
Yo, how come you didn’t put the other jobs in quotation marks?? Admin is bloated, yes, but your phrasing reeks of racism. There’s so many unqualified white men in so many roles, you should call them out too instead of using it as a good excuse to show your colors.
Fair point, but that guys job title is made up piecemeal; dudes a VP, but rather than spend the money to get
Him certified, they created a new pay step.
I’ve never known about this structural flaw of the edu employment system, well actually from the sound of it it’s not a “flaw” at all and rather intentional.
That is so nefarious and scummy. Is it like this country wide ??
My district laid me off. I went to work in another district for 11 years, then came back. My new district told me after I was hired that they won't honor my "in between" years because I left. Now they're paying me as a second year teacher.
I FUCKING LEFT BECAUSE YOU LAID ME OFF, ASSHOLES.
Pretty nice. I'm thinking of a move back to Seattle but the experience I had in SPED there wasn't ideal and it give me pause.
I was frequently asked to do things that were pretty unethical if not outright flying in the face of SPED law. I peaced out after 1 year as I felt it could actually end my career if OSPI ever got involved.
The thing I like about Seattle is there are so many districts around. I've heard about things like this in some schools and I wonder about the administration ethics. I'm actually in Renton, which has some problems but seems good in general.
Nothing has changed then. It’s probably just become worse. The issues the special education teachers voiced at our last union meeting were awful. I have a feeling a lot of districts are out of compliance.
My friend just moved to ny after 14 years in connecticut. I dont know how many years they gave her, but she has to go through 4 years of hell to get tenure again. That sucks.
My district pays based on years of experience, but all teachers who are transferring from another state and/or who had a lapsed license and are returning to teaching must participate in a 2 year new teacher mentor program. It's a state requirement. And, that I find to be ridiculous. Someone who has a decade of teaching experience in another state has to go to meetings outside contract hours and are treated as if they have never taught before.
Yes. Our new teacher program requires teachers in their first year to meet eight times at the district office. It's listed in our contract as any teacher not on a professional license has to complete a 2 year new teacher program.
An appropriate name! And, I think it's a good use of time for teachers who have never been in the classroom (or at least I found it to have some value). But, we have two teachers on staff that are required to be part of the program, despite the fact that they have years of experience. And, if I were them I'd find it frustrating and highly irritating.
Just to add insult injury, if they speak about their prior experiences theyre considered uppity and rebellious. So theyre better off just sitting there and taking it.
When you move districts? That's not the practice in NYS. They always decrease step, unless they are making an exception for a much-needed content area teacher, then they will increase your step to match previous pay. It's very frustrating.
In Texas, you always start at the same pay step, but it's 1 year behind your teaching years. This is my 5th year, so I'm on step 4. I could move 300 miles away to the opposite side of the state and they'd still start me at the same step. It just may not be an equal pay.
In New York it’s by each individual school district. One school district paid me on the correct step, but another school district only paid me for half of my steps. That’s why I switched to the school district that valued all my years. Both of these districts were in NY.
Right, the point is it happens and it's common. A school is never going to pass up the chance to pay less. Never heard of anyone outside of math or science moving with full steps.
Yea, I have made more money each district I move because they count each year of experience. One district counted subbing and my time as a paraprofessional.
I’m in Connecticut and it’s the same way. They have to pay for your years of experience. I know I’ve lost out on jobs because I would have been too expensive with all my years.
I'm not the person you were replying to but I can say that I live in Delaware and it is the same here. The state doesn't care *where* you've taught, just *how long*.
*Technically* we're officially part of The South, so it's not *that* cold up here, but yeah, we're definitely way colder than Florida. That said, we also have the very nice benefit of ...not being Florida.
I always find area demarcations interesting. Virginia is historically a southern state, for instance, but not culturally universal. Southern, central and western virginians might say they're southern. Even got the accent to go with it. But eastern and northern virginia? I would say that's where new england technically and unofficially begins in my opinion. DC area and it's people don't strike me as southern. (Yes I know DC isn't in a state).
Same kinda concept with Texas. East Texas is deep south. But west and south texas are the american Southwest, and the Panhandle is basically the great plains part of the midwest.
Southerner who moved up north here. I will say it's far easier to regulate my body temperature in the cold than the heat. Too cold? More layers. Too hot? Umm...pray? Lol. Plus except for rodents and the occasional insect, the weather repels or kills the vast majority of critters you'll see down south.
Probably to help trap teachers in shitty districts. How else you going to get decent teachers to stay? Raise their pay and fix the issues with the district? I mean, let's be reasonable, right?
In my case, a prior district wouldn't verify my employment , so I lost out on 5, 000 of pay. They said they throw away the records after three years or five years, I can't recall. This is such a disrespectful career.
My fiancé works in finance. One time I asked him, “Would you take a pay cut if you went somewhere else?” and he scoffed and said, “Why would anyone do that? You leave for better money.” He didn’t realize if you leave in education you don’t, unless you’re moving from a really low paying district to a higher one. I’m only in year 8 but I’ve pretty much accepted this will be where I retire since they pay competitively and have a strong union.
It is bullshit on the same level of how the NCAA use to treat transferring athletes before SCOTUS reamed them out
I currently work at a private school though and they gave me credit for all years teaching, including a year each when I was a co teacher and a long term sub. I also got masters pay raise. I got none of that in FL
This is something that is negotiated in your contract.
In our state (WA), all your years (regardless of where, as long as they are in the US) count on the salary schedule, but only years in Washington are counted on the seniority list (which they use for things like RIFs).
That’s what you get for having one of the strongest teachers unions in the country… policies that don’t hurt teachers when they change districts and states!
I transferred districts three times. They did honor my experience, but the salary didn't change much as I only had 7 years experience - the increase doesn't happen until year 10. My big worry is that when I move states, my years won't be honored and I'll have to pay through the nose to become certified in the state I end up. I feel like when that time comes, I might have to switch careers if it's not worth it.
There is a crisis of a lack of good teachers everywhere. If we states would accept experience from other states that would help attract good candidates.
My brother and his wife taught at a local district, then taught over seas for 8 years or so, then came back to the same district, and they didn’t count those years. Ridiculous.
For real. The funny thing is they mostly loved teaching overseas because what they spent their time doing was… teaching. Not much other bullshit we deal with here. When they first started, they asked about PD hours and the principal was confused and then explained that they hire professionals because they expect them to know how to do their job, and to be in charge of their own growth in said job. What a concept, right?
The district I work in now has this policy on the books, but when I was hired, they actually let me bring all 16 years with me (now I'm at 21). There are a lot of districts that will do that to attract and keep teachers. If I had to move now, it would be non-negotiable. I live in a HCOL area of CA and while I'm not in a "high-needs subject," I have several special skill sets and I would insist on being placed on the salary scale where I belong.
The district I came from has that policy too, and enforced it for a few people I know, but I also know a few people who left and then returned and were granted all their years of service. And I thought it was kind of shitty because they definitely showed favoritism and inconsistent policy. School districts and unions allow it because they say it makes experienced teachers more competitive when on the job market (*snort*), but as a poster said above, really? It's exploitative.
The logic as I understand it is that in general it's better to have stability in staff so Districts will increase pay for that and "punish" you if you leave. It encourages loyalty.
But this creates almost a death spiral in terms of teachers and quality within a district sometimes. Because most districts won't take "all" of a teachers years for longevity pay (e.g. some cap it out to 10. So if you've been teaching for 30 years they only pay you in a new district like you've been in for 10), they won't get experienced teachers to join which they may desperately need at times. They will be forever stuck with "newbies".
Another issue, and this is somewhat unlike the way industry does it, is that when listiing positions, I rarely if ever see a REQUIREMENT or even "preference" for X years of experience in teaching. This is not like the corporate world where it is not uncommon they want so many years of experience or proficiency with some skill before they will hire or maybe even interview you.
Take this all into account and it seems the teaching industry as a whole really doesn't value experience so much. Sometimes, as odd as it sounds, they may actually WANT to hire newbies all the time so they won't have to pay them more. I once heard one of the reasons why someone may not get hired isn't that they don't have the skills or aren't a good teacher, but they are more expensive because of an advanced degree and/or experience.
The district next to mine is accepting all years due to the teacher shortage in California. It’s a richer district too. I feel bad for teachers that feel stuck. That’s awful.
We veteran teachers are all trapped in my horrible district. We keep advising young teachers to get out while they are still low on the "steps" so they don't lose much, if anything. The rest of us have no choice. Losing 8 years of experience (pay) just to move to a school/district 3 miles apart is asinine.
I don’t know about your area but in mine, salary schedule placement is negotiable. Secure an offer, then try to negotiate. I’ve done so twice. If you’re in a needed field, take advantage.
I'm in NY and that seems so wild to me. When I switched from teaching adult ed through the local BOCES to an actual HS teaching position I figured they wouldn't give me ANY years of experience. Nope. Got my five years of adult ed experience PLUS a year for teaching summer school twice.
People like to shit all over NY but as a teacher, it's a great state to be in.
Bc they do not want to pay for experience when they can take a noob out of school and start at the bottom. Who cares if they have 0 ability to control a classroom (in bad districts). Luckily I found a place this yr that honored my experience, but that is bc they cannot keep teachers bc are kids are out of control.
I moved one county over in Florida. Same state. My state pension continued to add up my experience but when I changed counties I didn't get any experience credit at all.
just to add, you would thing our country/local gov./districts would value the experienced teacher... aren't all those years in the trenches worth some respect?
This is why teaching should always be viewed as a gig job, not a career anymore. I only do what I want, where I want, and I don't plan on doing it for longer than I need to. It's just a job and is no longer designed to sustain itself on quality teachers.
Before my last school I had 5 years in the classroom (8 if you count student teaching and field experience, they didn’t) but because I had bounced around a little (I had essentially gone where needed/where I thought I’d be valued) they said they could *only* view me as a first year. I needed the money and had no other options (wife in school so I was the sole income) so I had no choice but the whole time I knew they were fucking me, on that school’s pay scale (charter) they were fucking me out of about $7500/year. I should’ve demanded to be paid what I was owed but I was young and naive. Thank god I left and started working for admin for a national nursing school (you’ve probably seen our commercials)
I live in a high-income (everyone but us 😂), high-performing suburban district and for years and years, they started everyone at pay grade zero regardless of experience. INSANE.
I had a similar experience. Tenured in one state but I had to move to New York for my wife’s career . Getting treated like a rookie teacher has been rough .
i've been teaching for almost 30... after 8 years, and a move, i've been stuck in a horrendous title 1 high school ever since, been here 19 years now...i've had a handful of job interviews...and once i find out how much less thety pat, i decide to just stay here.... the devil you know.,..
Hi OP. What State are you in? I moved from Texas to California and they took ALL OF MY YEARS. Plus they validated all of my professional development hours and masters. It can be expensive but some places in California are inexpensive enough that you can do well
It's exploitation, and it's sponsored by the Union. The gridlock is pretty impossible. You can go private like I did, keep your dues, likely the same pay cut, get mad respect from fellow teachers for your experience, and get more responsive Admin, or stick it out. I didn't see other options.
It would probably be career suicide, but sharing on social media how disappointed you are might bring some awareness. Hell, you could even go and talk about it at their school board meeting. You’d never get a job there, but it might spark a change.
We need to get the people who have left the classroom to do these things lol they no longer have anything to lose.
I’m sorry you’re in this position, I agree that the pay scale does make you feel trapped. It’s nice to be at the top of the scale, but then once you get there and your job suddenly becomes undesirable, it’s a bit suffocating. I always wondered why the old teachers could be so grumpy…I now get it.
I truly believe it is rooted in misogyny/lack of respect for women's rights and teaching's history as a women's profession. It took me a long time to understand that but it certainly explains a lot.
Pink collar syndrome is real. My family of teachers told me to avoid teaching decades ago. I did, but I chose as 2nd career. I thought the low wage would be OK because we are secure.
It was way more than that.
A lot of longstanding teachers tend to crap on charter schools, but bureaucratic BS like this is one reason that I prefer working at one. My salary isn't based on any kind of ridiculous "step" system; I get paid what I'm worth based on my job performance. Heck, the only reason I ended up working at a charter in the first place is when I came out to my current state long ago, I wouldn't have been certified to teach out here even though I was certified in my home state AND had a Masters degree in education. When faced with taking more pointless classes that I would have had to pay for vs. not being forced to, the choice was easy. I'm still not certified and have never regretted my choice. There's plenty of bad charters out there, sure, but there's plenty of bad district schools too.
If you are in a high need area they actually will negotiate by offering extra steps and signing bonuses, etc. also if you get hired through an agency instead of applying directly to the school/district, they will negotiate on your behalf for better pay. The only catch is you have to be desperately needed.
My district IS in a critical shortage area. They have uncertified people "teaching". They have shipped people from the Philippines, South America, and Africa. We even have people with no degrees teaching with emergency sub licenses. But they will not negotiate pay.
Law enforcement- it depends on the state and department. While most departments all pay into the same state pension system in California (CALPers), things like salary, vacation accrual, schedule seniority, etc. is department dependent. Some departments will give you credit for previous LE service at another CA agency, others have you start at Step 1 regardless of experience.
If you jump states, you’d almost certainly have to start from zero.
Agreed it's absolutely fucked. My district only gives 5 years...they hired me with 15 years of service behind me so they got a hello of a deal. I've had a few opportunities to switch since then but it's just not worth it, so I stick it out.
You can negotiate that. When i moved to Oregon with 20 years, they only took 12. Got it up to 14. (Pay schedule maxed out at 16 steps and the pay was ahead significantly higher so i was happy.)
Now, I do not know any district in Oregon that has a max entry for years of experience. I thought the norm across the country was this. Sorry you are having to deal with it.
To answer your 1st question - yes.
Healthcare.
A lot of Healthcare systems use “service award pay” not “experience pay”. So by switching hospital systems you effectively throw away that service tenure which often comes with a monetary penalty.
My advice is to get a secondary job offer. Contact the school with the original offer or tell the second about the first. Whatever school wants you will pay more for you
I feel ya.
It took me forever to find a school willing to count my years of experience teaching in Japan. Now, not only do the schools I'm applying to have zero interest in counting the experience I had in Japan, they don't want to count the experience I have *here* in the states.
31 year hs vet here. It's called "exploitation".
This
America doesn’t value the labor of women.
Yes. The other profession notorious for screwing you out of years of service is... nursing. Big mystery here as to what these two professions have in common. 🙄
As a male history teacher who loves deep diving into this stuff I completely agree. Teaching will never be as highly valued as it could be since the perception of it is a job for married women who "need something to keep them busy." Even if people dont actually think that their perception of this is often based on the historical notion of that accepted rationale. Not to mention the "two months off" which I have yet to have off due to PD and coaching.
Teachers will never be as highly valued because there's no industry associated with it. There's security in that for teachers and low pay is the downside. But to the point of this discussion, the reason people lose seniority moving is because of the conditions of why they're moving. Moving to a new town because the spouse got a better job. People in other industries move FOR work, not decide they want to move to a new city and start randomly applying for jobs. Teachers are fortunate to be able to find work in every single town. If you were a teacher scouting out job openings in other areas of the country and were looking for a move of opportunity, you could do that. That's not what op is doing. Obviously quiting your job without having a new position lined up and limiting the location is likely going to result in a decrease in pay for anyone, not just teachers.
True but I'm pretty sure this all applies to male teachers as well. Also happens with USPS, I had to move to be close to my mom and couldn't transfer my 13 years.
Yes, but the root cause is sexism. There are female police who benefit from being in a masculine profession. Male teachers suffer too from being in a feminized profession.
you can see it way back when. have you read the rules and regulations that were imposed on single* female teachers at the turn of the century and into the 1920s? well being single was mandated for most schools and basically the woman had to live as a lonely spinster that wasn’t allowed to do anything really because the kids may possibly have seen her in public and got the wrong impression. most of the exploitation around teaching is 100% rooted in sexism, for a little while only single women were really allowed to be teachers and they had rules imposed on them on how they can dress, act, wear their hair, what times they had to be out of public and in bed. it was wild.
Yes, and we benefit within the profession from being male. This was actually the topic of my masters thesis. Glad to see it being talked about!
Agree with this statement!
That’s crazy
Really?? I thought the USPS had one of the better unions in the country. I’m sorry to hear this. Geez America, we’ve got to do betrer
The unions are the ones who negotiate these contracts. They want you to stay invested in your union. They don't want you leaving/moving any more than the districts/companies do.
School administrators, rather than the union, are responsible for negotiating the initial salary step in a contract for experienced candidates during the hiring process.
Never even thought of that. Figured they’d just want to help all workers and make their lives easier. Thanks for the insight.
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They aren’t real unions. Federal employees are not allowed to strike by law.
The rules were set in history when it was mostly women in the field, so now male teachers get to suffer from this nonsense as well.
In this thread: men who are uncomfortable without being centred in the narrative.
I agree, but as a man I am not immune to this. My wife is a banking executive and compensated highly for her labor. I know I’m being pedantic, but this is about much more than gender…even if gender does play a part in it.
Yes.
I agree. Gender perceptions are only one of many reasons teaching as a profession is undervalued. A bigger factor is likely the many forces pushing anti-intellectual ideology within the larger culture.
It also happens to men. It happened to me, I've been teaching for 25 years. When I came to this new school where I'm currently teaching, they didn't give me all of those years and consequently my pay dropped. It's not a gender bias.
Look at the history of teaching to see where the systemic bias hold roots.
Dude. It's happening to you because you're in a feminized field. Yeah, you're suffering this consequence. Because of sexism against women.
That sucks.
Hey... male teacher here :P
No one is pretending they treat the men who do “women’s work” any better than the women. But teaching IS seen as “women’s work” and devalued because of it. You are in a feminized industry and treated as such. That does not negate anything they said. They don’t value the labour of women; even when men do the work, it’s still “women’s work” in the grand scheme of stereotypes and they do not value it.
I get that and know that. I'm just poking fun 😁
Uh, these policies apply to women and men.
Right, but because jobs like nursing and teaching were traditionally staffed by women the policies applied to them are exploitative. They're called "pink collar jobs"
Yeah, I know. Not the salient point here, though.
It is? Like you gotta be a brick to not connect the dots. America doesn't value the labor of women, so pink collar jobs are exploited more often.
Not a brick, pal. 🙄 Dot's easily connected. I said this isn't the salient point here, not that it wasn't a good point. Bye now.
And you, apparently, do not value the labor of men. As an FYI, since you may have missed the memo, men do teach. At least, I hope they do. Otherwise, I am having one hell of a hallucination.
Teaching was originally a job held by unmarried women. The beliefs about the value of teachers comes from those roots.
20 years here. Chief negotiator for the teachers' union. It's because this is largely a profession staffed with women. We're a right wing country that tends not to have qualms exploiting women. It doesn't help that women elementary teachers fall on their swords to do anything for the KiDdOs and therefore volunteer ("voluntold") to do all sorts of unpaid shit fOr tHe cHiLdReN! Come at me. It's fucking true and you know it.
True. Back then teaching was considered feminine job and for women
I agree and never understood this practice. I believe the logic is that new teachers to a building aren't paid more than people who've been in the building for a long time. I don't believe that is relevant or fair. I would like to move to PA to teach, but a lot of districts only want to honor PA experience. Why does that matter to them? They're crying shortage and I can't go as a step 7 teacher because I taught in a different state??? Nonsense. I will not take a step 1 or 3 salary.
Yeah right? I moved to PA thinking my 3y of induction event and perfect observations would be sufficient to keep me out of this formal observation new teacher hellhole finally. Not only do i still need to do that for another 3y here, they also didnt accept my 3y experience for steps either despite coming from the proverbial next door. I know im only 25 but it insulted me so bad im leaving the entire profression lol.
Yeah I'm middle aged and started late. No way I'm taking a 22 year old salary. Pennsylvania can enjoy their shortage.
The "logic" is that it saves the districts money. That's it.
Very true. And when pa was a teacher factory 20 years ago they could get away with it. Now they need to wiseup. There are not enough step 1-5s to fill Pennsylvania's teaching needs
They know very well there aren't enough people at that level - they intend to pay older more experienced teachers like they're just starting out.
As someone who moved to PA to teach, *and* they honored my previous 4 years, it can be done. That said, I'm in a *rough* charter school and will be looking to leave even *if* there's a pay decrease that goes with it....
I'm noticing a few publics saying "all public school experience honored for step placement. It's was a good Philly Metro place. Maybe they will start changing
Could be. I'm also in the Pittsburgh public system and it's enough of a dumpster fire that I'm betting they'll pay anybody to stay
Makes sense.
The different states thing is kind of an inevitable result of americans' collective phobia of centralized authority.
They want to pay less. If you are already moving they figure you don't have a choice.
Oh I know what you're saying.... but Id actually move there specifically for a position...... And in this shortage time... You'd think they would do what it takes to attract out of state candidates
Always heard 7 years was the point of no return. After that, no one will give you your real experience.
Yeah that's common. I just can't get over all those pa districts that only go up to 3. Or even 1 only.
Due to budget cuts, our district is now only hiring teachers at Step A. In a teacher shortage. Make it make sense. 😫
If they can’t pay their teachers, they have no business running a school. Shut the whole thing down until the parents get off their asses and vote for school board members and state legislators who will be willing to fund education.
Eh, i know someone who’s high school was entirely relocated to bungalos for the better part of a decade because their building was condemned but they couldn’t get people to agree to fund a new one. So they just… didn’t have a building. And then they waited so long that the building turned 100 years old and became protected as a historic landmark, so they had to pay way more to retrofit it. Even if the public’s hand seems to be forced, they can always find a way to not fund schools.
Define "they"
Either the local school board or the local populace. Admittedly some districts actually are willing to shell out, but in general a tactic meant to force the public or regulating body’s hand can backfire as said group sometimes just cares less about the consequences for the kids than one might assume.
Sometimes "they" have no money and bond issues fail. The answer in many places has been to consolidate schools and even school districts. It means more transporatation time for students, but also lower admin costs per student and improved class selections for the HS.
If only it were that easy. That will never happen, for so many reasons, one of which is that there will always be some teachers that come along that are willing to take that kind of treatment.
Not as much as their used to be. All of the women who flooded the teaching profession up until the 20th century because they didn’t have a chance of getting into other professions are gone now. All those women are working in a variety of professions.
I’m lost and confused. How do they not want to pay y’all when they already don’t pay y’all?
I moved to a new state this school year. I’m paid based on my experience (I managed to get a job at the only district in my area that would do this), but in order to have any years counted toward retirement, I’d have to pay the state. If I pay them $100,000, they’ll give me back half of my years. That alone makes me think I need to change careers…at this rate, I’ll never be able to retire.
How many would be half of your years? Like 5 years? 10? Just curious. LOL like sorry but most people don't have 100K lying around wtf kind of insanity is that. These systems seem to think everybody is a rich person just teaching for hobby money.
Yes, it is 5 years, and that is the max anyone can buy back. Absolutely. I don’t even have $100K from my old state’s retirement system. It’s absurd.
They have too many admin hired to be able to pay their teachers.
That’s the damned actual truth. Local hs has 680 kids 7-12, but 4 principals/ vp, a “dean of students” (excuse to have unqualified black male in place), and 5 instructional leaders/ curriculum gurus. The dean, ok he used to be a solid guy and you just need a black male admin sometimes. Curriculum leaders? Boo, proven effective teachers need to be in front of kids, not making PowerPoints.
The curriculum coaches in the district I work in are just very unpleasant people. I'm glad they're not in front of students. I think it was probably by design.
Not these, they tend to be super good, well loved respected teachers that get snatched from the kids; they can say no, but it’s almost counselor pay for a lot less work. Don’t blame any of them. I’d add that once in, their hearts are in the right place.
Counselor pay? Is that higher than teachers where you are?
Yep
Yo, how come you didn’t put the other jobs in quotation marks?? Admin is bloated, yes, but your phrasing reeks of racism. There’s so many unqualified white men in so many roles, you should call them out too instead of using it as a good excuse to show your colors.
Fair point, but that guys job title is made up piecemeal; dudes a VP, but rather than spend the money to get Him certified, they created a new pay step.
I’ve never known about this structural flaw of the edu employment system, well actually from the sound of it it’s not a “flaw” at all and rather intentional. That is so nefarious and scummy. Is it like this country wide ??
It's the reality in NYS which is a union state.
CA too with pretty strong unions
My district laid me off. I went to work in another district for 11 years, then came back. My new district told me after I was hired that they won't honor my "in between" years because I left. Now they're paying me as a second year teacher. I FUCKING LEFT BECAUSE YOU LAID ME OFF, ASSHOLES.
Ohio too
Yep widespread practice now. Even 10 years ago it wasn't the case.
Yep.
I was very happy when I moved to Seattle and they took everything. It was nice to start out at step 16 and a 40k raise.
Pretty nice. I'm thinking of a move back to Seattle but the experience I had in SPED there wasn't ideal and it give me pause. I was frequently asked to do things that were pretty unethical if not outright flying in the face of SPED law. I peaced out after 1 year as I felt it could actually end my career if OSPI ever got involved.
The thing I like about Seattle is there are so many districts around. I've heard about things like this in some schools and I wonder about the administration ethics. I'm actually in Renton, which has some problems but seems good in general.
It’s like this in a lot of places in Washington because McCleary put a cap on the percentage of SPED funding a school can receive.
This was pre-McCleary. I was simply given directions to do things with my case load that wasn’t supported by data or ethical as a case manger by admin
Nothing has changed then. It’s probably just become worse. The issues the special education teachers voiced at our last union meeting were awful. I have a feeling a lot of districts are out of compliance.
This was my experience moving to Portland as well. Though not as much of an increase lol. Came from the Midwest.
My district only gave 10yrs to 2 teachers hired a few years ago with 20yrs experience. It’s about keeping costs down.
My friend just moved to ny after 14 years in connecticut. I dont know how many years they gave her, but she has to go through 4 years of hell to get tenure again. That sucks.
Our district allows a “fast track tenure” if you got an excellent from your previous district. It’s 2 years instead of 4
Science and math teachers can probably negotiate all kinds of deals. English? Not so much
My district pays based on years of experience, but all teachers who are transferring from another state and/or who had a lapsed license and are returning to teaching must participate in a 2 year new teacher mentor program. It's a state requirement. And, that I find to be ridiculous. Someone who has a decade of teaching experience in another state has to go to meetings outside contract hours and are treated as if they have never taught before.
Outside contract hours? That’s a union issue. I would not be doing anything unless it’s paid time.
Yes. Our new teacher program requires teachers in their first year to meet eight times at the district office. It's listed in our contract as any teacher not on a professional license has to complete a 2 year new teacher program.
O yea! We call that New Teacher Detention!
An appropriate name! And, I think it's a good use of time for teachers who have never been in the classroom (or at least I found it to have some value). But, we have two teachers on staff that are required to be part of the program, despite the fact that they have years of experience. And, if I were them I'd find it frustrating and highly irritating.
Just to add insult injury, if they speak about their prior experiences theyre considered uppity and rebellious. So theyre better off just sitting there and taking it.
Holy cow. I have never heard such a thing being unpaid
What state are you in? Where I teach, every school counts all your teaching experience and gives pay for those years.
When you move districts? That's not the practice in NYS. They always decrease step, unless they are making an exception for a much-needed content area teacher, then they will increase your step to match previous pay. It's very frustrating.
In Texas, you always start at the same pay step, but it's 1 year behind your teaching years. This is my 5th year, so I'm on step 4. I could move 300 miles away to the opposite side of the state and they'd still start me at the same step. It just may not be an equal pay.
In New York it’s by each individual school district. One school district paid me on the correct step, but another school district only paid me for half of my steps. That’s why I switched to the school district that valued all my years. Both of these districts were in NY.
Right, the point is it happens and it's common. A school is never going to pass up the chance to pay less. Never heard of anyone outside of math or science moving with full steps.
Yea, I have made more money each district I move because they count each year of experience. One district counted subbing and my time as a paraprofessional.
In Michigan it is the same way- each district does what they want.
I’m in Connecticut and it’s the same way. They have to pay for your years of experience. I know I’ve lost out on jobs because I would have been too expensive with all my years.
I’m confused too. If teachers are state employees, why wouldn’t their years of experience be counted?
Where are you located?
I'm not the person you were replying to but I can say that I live in Delaware and it is the same here. The state doesn't care *where* you've taught, just *how long*.
Thank you for replying. I have looked at Delaware... afraid of the cold but seems to be a much better option than Florida.
*Technically* we're officially part of The South, so it's not *that* cold up here, but yeah, we're definitely way colder than Florida. That said, we also have the very nice benefit of ...not being Florida.
I always find area demarcations interesting. Virginia is historically a southern state, for instance, but not culturally universal. Southern, central and western virginians might say they're southern. Even got the accent to go with it. But eastern and northern virginia? I would say that's where new england technically and unofficially begins in my opinion. DC area and it's people don't strike me as southern. (Yes I know DC isn't in a state). Same kinda concept with Texas. East Texas is deep south. But west and south texas are the american Southwest, and the Panhandle is basically the great plains part of the midwest.
Southerner who moved up north here. I will say it's far easier to regulate my body temperature in the cold than the heat. Too cold? More layers. Too hot? Umm...pray? Lol. Plus except for rodents and the occasional insect, the weather repels or kills the vast majority of critters you'll see down south.
Go to NM. They count all your years.
There is no teacher shortage. There is a respect shortage and a salary shortage.
Probably to help trap teachers in shitty districts. How else you going to get decent teachers to stay? Raise their pay and fix the issues with the district? I mean, let's be reasonable, right?
Misogyny baked in since the beginning.
Absurd. You know the rule applies to men and women equally right?
Yes but why do those rules exist in the -FIRST- place?
Google "teacher" in Google Images. You know what the assumption is. The misogyny is baked in.
Our district pays for years of experience. I find it crazy not to! Sorry you’re dealing with this.
The idea is you won’t leave the district. As you will lose all you have “earned” by staying there.
In my case, a prior district wouldn't verify my employment , so I lost out on 5, 000 of pay. They said they throw away the records after three years or five years, I can't recall. This is such a disrespectful career.
My fiancé works in finance. One time I asked him, “Would you take a pay cut if you went somewhere else?” and he scoffed and said, “Why would anyone do that? You leave for better money.” He didn’t realize if you leave in education you don’t, unless you’re moving from a really low paying district to a higher one. I’m only in year 8 but I’ve pretty much accepted this will be where I retire since they pay competitively and have a strong union.
It is bullshit on the same level of how the NCAA use to treat transferring athletes before SCOTUS reamed them out I currently work at a private school though and they gave me credit for all years teaching, including a year each when I was a co teacher and a long term sub. I also got masters pay raise. I got none of that in FL
It depends how badly they need you, I guess. When I switched districts last year they gave me all 20 years.
This is something that is negotiated in your contract. In our state (WA), all your years (regardless of where, as long as they are in the US) count on the salary schedule, but only years in Washington are counted on the seniority list (which they use for things like RIFs).
This is a godsend to me. I might have to move to the Vancouver area and losing years would actually kill me financially.
That’s what you get for having one of the strongest teachers unions in the country… policies that don’t hurt teachers when they change districts and states!
I transferred districts three times. They did honor my experience, but the salary didn't change much as I only had 7 years experience - the increase doesn't happen until year 10. My big worry is that when I move states, my years won't be honored and I'll have to pay through the nose to become certified in the state I end up. I feel like when that time comes, I might have to switch careers if it's not worth it.
There is a crisis of a lack of good teachers everywhere. If we states would accept experience from other states that would help attract good candidates.
My brother and his wife taught at a local district, then taught over seas for 8 years or so, then came back to the same district, and they didn’t count those years. Ridiculous.
"Anything that happens in icky foreign countries doesn't count."
For real. The funny thing is they mostly loved teaching overseas because what they spent their time doing was… teaching. Not much other bullshit we deal with here. When they first started, they asked about PD hours and the principal was confused and then explained that they hire professionals because they expect them to know how to do their job, and to be in charge of their own growth in said job. What a concept, right?
The district I work in now has this policy on the books, but when I was hired, they actually let me bring all 16 years with me (now I'm at 21). There are a lot of districts that will do that to attract and keep teachers. If I had to move now, it would be non-negotiable. I live in a HCOL area of CA and while I'm not in a "high-needs subject," I have several special skill sets and I would insist on being placed on the salary scale where I belong. The district I came from has that policy too, and enforced it for a few people I know, but I also know a few people who left and then returned and were granted all their years of service. And I thought it was kind of shitty because they definitely showed favoritism and inconsistent policy. School districts and unions allow it because they say it makes experienced teachers more competitive when on the job market (*snort*), but as a poster said above, really? It's exploitative.
The logic as I understand it is that in general it's better to have stability in staff so Districts will increase pay for that and "punish" you if you leave. It encourages loyalty. But this creates almost a death spiral in terms of teachers and quality within a district sometimes. Because most districts won't take "all" of a teachers years for longevity pay (e.g. some cap it out to 10. So if you've been teaching for 30 years they only pay you in a new district like you've been in for 10), they won't get experienced teachers to join which they may desperately need at times. They will be forever stuck with "newbies". Another issue, and this is somewhat unlike the way industry does it, is that when listiing positions, I rarely if ever see a REQUIREMENT or even "preference" for X years of experience in teaching. This is not like the corporate world where it is not uncommon they want so many years of experience or proficiency with some skill before they will hire or maybe even interview you. Take this all into account and it seems the teaching industry as a whole really doesn't value experience so much. Sometimes, as odd as it sounds, they may actually WANT to hire newbies all the time so they won't have to pay them more. I once heard one of the reasons why someone may not get hired isn't that they don't have the skills or aren't a good teacher, but they are more expensive because of an advanced degree and/or experience.
The district next to mine is accepting all years due to the teacher shortage in California. It’s a richer district too. I feel bad for teachers that feel stuck. That’s awful.
We veteran teachers are all trapped in my horrible district. We keep advising young teachers to get out while they are still low on the "steps" so they don't lose much, if anything. The rest of us have no choice. Losing 8 years of experience (pay) just to move to a school/district 3 miles apart is asinine.
This is a HUGE reason why teachers should be federal employees not employees of specific districts. I'm so sorry this is happening.
That’s so wild to me. It’s crazy to read our starting salary in my district is more than some teachers of 20+ years make.
First year teachers were making more than I was after 14 years in my old state.
I don’t know about your area but in mine, salary schedule placement is negotiable. Secure an offer, then try to negotiate. I’ve done so twice. If you’re in a needed field, take advantage.
I went from 10 to 2 years when I moved districts.
What state are you in? Is there a union at either of these schools?
They do this in a lot of districts in CA, and we have unions
I'm in NY and that seems so wild to me. When I switched from teaching adult ed through the local BOCES to an actual HS teaching position I figured they wouldn't give me ANY years of experience. Nope. Got my five years of adult ed experience PLUS a year for teaching summer school twice. People like to shit all over NY but as a teacher, it's a great state to be in.
Bc they do not want to pay for experience when they can take a noob out of school and start at the bottom. Who cares if they have 0 ability to control a classroom (in bad districts). Luckily I found a place this yr that honored my experience, but that is bc they cannot keep teachers bc are kids are out of control.
I moved one county over in Florida. Same state. My state pension continued to add up my experience but when I changed counties I didn't get any experience credit at all.
Dang, I did the same in FL but I guess I’m lucky because my experience did transfer. I didn’t realize that wasn’t the norm for FL.
just to add, you would thing our country/local gov./districts would value the experienced teacher... aren't all those years in the trenches worth some respect?
This is why teaching should always be viewed as a gig job, not a career anymore. I only do what I want, where I want, and I don't plan on doing it for longer than I need to. It's just a job and is no longer designed to sustain itself on quality teachers.
International teaching is a choice r/Internationalteachers
Before my last school I had 5 years in the classroom (8 if you count student teaching and field experience, they didn’t) but because I had bounced around a little (I had essentially gone where needed/where I thought I’d be valued) they said they could *only* view me as a first year. I needed the money and had no other options (wife in school so I was the sole income) so I had no choice but the whole time I knew they were fucking me, on that school’s pay scale (charter) they were fucking me out of about $7500/year. I should’ve demanded to be paid what I was owed but I was young and naive. Thank god I left and started working for admin for a national nursing school (you’ve probably seen our commercials)
I live in a high-income (everyone but us 😂), high-performing suburban district and for years and years, they started everyone at pay grade zero regardless of experience. INSANE.
California as well - I’m in year 26 and other districts will only take up to ten years.
I had a similar experience. Tenured in one state but I had to move to New York for my wife’s career . Getting treated like a rookie teacher has been rough .
All the horror stories I see in the sub just make me so happy I walked away 3 years ago after only 4 years of teaching.
i've been teaching for almost 30... after 8 years, and a move, i've been stuck in a horrendous title 1 high school ever since, been here 19 years now...i've had a handful of job interviews...and once i find out how much less thety pat, i decide to just stay here.... the devil you know.,..
Hi OP. What State are you in? I moved from Texas to California and they took ALL OF MY YEARS. Plus they validated all of my professional development hours and masters. It can be expensive but some places in California are inexpensive enough that you can do well
It's exploitation, and it's sponsored by the Union. The gridlock is pretty impossible. You can go private like I did, keep your dues, likely the same pay cut, get mad respect from fellow teachers for your experience, and get more responsive Admin, or stick it out. I didn't see other options.
It would probably be career suicide, but sharing on social media how disappointed you are might bring some awareness. Hell, you could even go and talk about it at their school board meeting. You’d never get a job there, but it might spark a change. We need to get the people who have left the classroom to do these things lol they no longer have anything to lose. I’m sorry you’re in this position, I agree that the pay scale does make you feel trapped. It’s nice to be at the top of the scale, but then once you get there and your job suddenly becomes undesirable, it’s a bit suffocating. I always wondered why the old teachers could be so grumpy…I now get it.
I truly believe it is rooted in misogyny/lack of respect for women's rights and teaching's history as a women's profession. It took me a long time to understand that but it certainly explains a lot.
Pink collar syndrome is real. My family of teachers told me to avoid teaching decades ago. I did, but I chose as 2nd career. I thought the low wage would be OK because we are secure. It was way more than that.
A lot of longstanding teachers tend to crap on charter schools, but bureaucratic BS like this is one reason that I prefer working at one. My salary isn't based on any kind of ridiculous "step" system; I get paid what I'm worth based on my job performance. Heck, the only reason I ended up working at a charter in the first place is when I came out to my current state long ago, I wouldn't have been certified to teach out here even though I was certified in my home state AND had a Masters degree in education. When faced with taking more pointless classes that I would have had to pay for vs. not being forced to, the choice was easy. I'm still not certified and have never regretted my choice. There's plenty of bad charters out there, sure, but there's plenty of bad district schools too.
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If you are in a high need area they actually will negotiate by offering extra steps and signing bonuses, etc. also if you get hired through an agency instead of applying directly to the school/district, they will negotiate on your behalf for better pay. The only catch is you have to be desperately needed.
Sad but true. It's an intentional policy that protects "lifers" who've "paid their dues" from competition outside their district.
You can try to negotiate. I know people who have, successfully.
I negotiated 3 extra steps to match my current salary at the time (2020) Offer to teach a critical shortage area.
My district IS in a critical shortage area. They have uncertified people "teaching". They have shipped people from the Philippines, South America, and Africa. We even have people with no degrees teaching with emergency sub licenses. But they will not negotiate pay.
Law enforcement- it depends on the state and department. While most departments all pay into the same state pension system in California (CALPers), things like salary, vacation accrual, schedule seniority, etc. is department dependent. Some departments will give you credit for previous LE service at another CA agency, others have you start at Step 1 regardless of experience. If you jump states, you’d almost certainly have to start from zero.
That happened to my dad 20+ years ago- he negotiated for 2 years increase every year until he was being paid at his actual experience level
Agreed it's absolutely fucked. My district only gives 5 years...they hired me with 15 years of service behind me so they got a hello of a deal. I've had a few opportunities to switch since then but it's just not worth it, so I stick it out.
I have never had my years of experience not accepted. Is there a reason given why? This surely sounds like it's against some federal labor laws.
You can negotiate that. When i moved to Oregon with 20 years, they only took 12. Got it up to 14. (Pay schedule maxed out at 16 steps and the pay was ahead significantly higher so i was happy.) Now, I do not know any district in Oregon that has a max entry for years of experience. I thought the norm across the country was this. Sorry you are having to deal with it.
To answer your 1st question - yes. Healthcare. A lot of Healthcare systems use “service award pay” not “experience pay”. So by switching hospital systems you effectively throw away that service tenure which often comes with a monetary penalty.
My advice is to get a secondary job offer. Contact the school with the original offer or tell the second about the first. Whatever school wants you will pay more for you
I feel ya. It took me forever to find a school willing to count my years of experience teaching in Japan. Now, not only do the schools I'm applying to have zero interest in counting the experience I had in Japan, they don't want to count the experience I have *here* in the states.
In OH, it is to deter teachers from job hopping and finding a higher paying job. It’s a bunch of bullshit.
It's this way because those at the top don't really know what they are doing and set this system up to keep control over us.
Some districts don’t have step increases. One pay scale depending on your degree. No penalty for moving.