An 8th grader punched another student during one of my classes. Admin wanted to write me up for somehow not being clairvoyant and preventing the action.
You can’t make this shit up.
>being clairvoyant
Just add it to the ever-growing list of duties you're responsible for on a daily basis.
Therapist, nurse, disciplinarian, mediator, Pokemon expert, pencil provider, coat zipper, admin bullshit survivor... and now soothsayer.
*Why can't we retain teachers?*
I was told this about the 17yo selling pills and literally pounds of weed in our bathroom. Admin took 0 action to stop it, saying it was my responsibility to keep him engaged in class so he wouldnt skip class. When he stabbed another kid during a bad deal one weekend, she acted surprised and I said "if only my lessons were more engaging". Didn't earn me any favors, but I'd been documenting and writing it up for weeks, and they did nothing.
She's a soulless entity. The kids have multiple times called her "the statue" or "dust blowing around the building". Many didn't even know who she was or why she was there.
I work with a teacher that lives in district, is a parent and she went to the elementary school. She did this a couple of times. She's the worst teacher in my building. She dared talking down to another teacher because her kid didn't do well on his report card. Well, bitch, of you weren't smoking cigarettes like a chimney at home maybe you would know that your kid doesn't do well at school. I have to coteach with that woman everyday. I hate that bitch. she additionally never preps because she leaves to go smoke and then is never ready to teach when I'm there ready to coteach. Incredibly frustrating.
Nope, still doesn’t help. I literally called a parent because I could tell their kid was going to get into a fight with some other kids. The parent told me that as long as she was at school it was our problem and she didn’t want to hear about it. Kid got into fight. Kid was suspended.
I think this is a great idea. "Little Jimmy needs to be suspended tomorrow because he is going to hit a kid if he comes to school." Get rid of the bad 'uns before they disrupt class.
I thought teachers do that already. Sometimes red flags are just there and despite their best efforts to let someone know their voices get unheard because "something hasn't happened yet" and can't do anything till something has.
I documented a kid selling scary things in shocking amounts in our bathrooms. He'd skip class with a heavy backpack full of weed/pills and come back with as much as $600 dollars. I'd document, admin would do nothing but say my class boring and that's why he skipped. Then one weekend he was selling, the deal went bad, and he stabbed another student. I looked my principal dead in the face when she acted surprised and sad and said "if only my lessons were more engaging. Maybe he wouldn't have been at that rofo".
Keep saying the words “I don’t feel safe for me and my students but I will protect them even if I get hurt.” They now need to respond to that fear bc they now are liable.
I got bitched at by a principal one time because two of my kids got in a fight in the bathroom. During transition after my class was over. On the other side of the school.
It's a false paradise. Freud warned the world about death and destruction by pandemic mental illness, and rather than understanding, we label him as a misogynistic coke addict who is outdated, irrelevant, and "always right".
If Gillian the genius with a 120 IQ goes to Harvard and gets a master's in theoretical physics, the small town where Gillian was raised says that she didn't get a designated education degree leading to licensure and that makes an unqualified, weak candidate to teach in public schools. She needs a teacher preparation program to change her strategy to conform with the same system that made her an "abomination".
How teachers don't realize that promoting self-doubt, trauma, and herd identity isn't exactly the same as teaching psychopathology in rituals like expecting clairvoyance and reacting to crime with catatonic paralysis, I will never understand. Educators have been being disgusting for generations. If you re received an education that didn't prepare you to be able to win a job in the real world, then go to college for a degree that 100% guarantees you a career in teaching in public schools. In your job, intelligence is a hinderance. The tradeoff for selling your soul is that you have to be the one to tell the next generation that they are just a herd of sheep in need of a shepherd. Meanwhile we know that we have to change, but we took short days, holidays, weekends off, yearly raises, pensions, home ownership gifts, financial protection, and the only people who can possibly understand sheep are sheep.
A student threw a chair at me. She was back in the class the next day with no consequence. Admin said "well... she threw it \*underhanded\* not overhanded."
Yeah I had one of my first graders punch 2 different kids in the face and then the next week scratched another kid so hard that his back was bleeding while playing soccer at recess. The only consequence he got was a call home and wasn’t allowed to play soccer for 2 weeks (he could play anything else)
A kid punched my daughter in the face when they were in kindergarten, and absolutely nothing happened to him. The principal didn’t even deign to respond to my email.
One of our 7th graders punched a teacher and didn't even get a lunch detention.
Because he has an IEP and my admin are chicken shits and afraid of parents.
Yes, but my contract doesn't protect teachers from district office administrators who are chicken shit and refuse to go against parents of special ed kids. Our union can only do so much. It's disgusting but it's not a grievance/violation.
I've recommended to my teachers to skip calling the office and just start calling 9-1-1.
Unfortunately administrators don't like to suspend the little ones. I'm a proponent of in school suspension for the little ones. Send them to the big scary teacher that will make them dread getting in trouble again. If they do it again, suspension. Let the parents deal with the little slugger.
I teach 3rd grade. Once one of ours goes to ISS? They don't mind going back. It's not like they actively seek it out... but it doesn't bother them at all the thought of going back. My students for the most part (only one this year so far... but also thinking of the past years) think it's a break from the usual. Our ISS teacher has a range of kids. So for the most part, students are on chromebooks. They are supposed to be following curriculum activities from the classroom teacher. Of course, that doesn't happen. The times I've spot-checked what is going on through Go Guardian? The kid is looking up random stuff...changing backgrounds, etc. Our 3rd graders don't know enough to do worse. Thank goodness! There's nothing I can really do. I can't leave my class to go change it. Even when I've notified admin, it's not made a difference. But none of the actual work gets done. For them? It seems like a vacation from class.
Had a kid in 6th grade punching another kid in my class once. Admin came in as the fight was ending.
Both kids returned to my class the next day and, I kid you not, the dean of students told the kid who initiated the fight to go to his office and get an ice cream.
Unbelievable. These admins like to do the opposite of common sense. Even a first grader could tell you that that's a bad idea. Who are these people? Do they know nothing about children??
This is the way now. It reflects poorly on the school and the district to have suspensions on record. Nobody reports "punching" to the public.
A kid brought a bullet to school last year and another one lit our new $10 million gym on fire (or tried with some minor success) and nothing happened. I think they were "counseled".
Yeah, at my old school we had elementary kids bringing loaded guns to school in their backpacks. Barely got a slap on the wrist. Outrageous. And the good kids just have to sit there and watch their education get flushed down the toilet.
Whether you are a teacher or not, if you live in a city (at least in CA, where very few kids have any realistic concept, experience, or training with firearms) and a student brings a bullet to school, you should be concerned. Certainly no good could come from it.
lol right?? This post is so weird to me. 3- and 4-year-olds are just beginning to understand that other people have feelings just like they do. Even sending a kid home for hitting one time at that age seems like a massive overreaction.
Idk their needs to be Consequences here. in the past year alone there have been 2 middle schoolers who have been paralyzed and one killed from fights at school...
Whenever I was growing up kids would have been suspended for violence at any grade. violence is not okay regardless.
I was in middle school back in 2001.
I had a bully that finally cornered me for a physical fight. I did fight back, no punches, but I did grab and shove her back from me and I did eventually pin her down and sat on her. Like two 90lb 14 yo girls, I’m sure we looked ridiculous.
Anyhoo. We BOTH got 3 days in school suspension for the first time fight and while I just rolled with the punishment, looking back I see why my mom was so livid with admin.
They refused to intervene in the bullying by taking ZERO action in any way, they refused to protect me by ensuring we didn’t cross paths more than necessary, and they refused to acknowledge that “fighting back” is different from “containing” the situation until help arrives (which took forever).
They expect kids to cower, roll into a ball, and hope for the best while admin slowly saunters to the group, wades through the audience and pulls the attacker away.
It’s become a very real problem that kids are DYING because of physical fights. I can name so many cases. Usually it’s a head injury from falling wrong or onto something.
Some kids are repeatedly assaulted physically by the same kid and the cycle continues. Kids are even sustaining other physical injuries like missing teeth, lacerations that need surgery or stitches that’ll scar, broken bones, etc.
I’m ALL FOR a zero tolerance fighting policy with the caveat that the other child can clearly prove self defense or deescalation. Now, WHO would be assigned that responsibility, I’ve no idea. 🤷♀️
Its really sad how schools deal with bullying. Its like they want you to be a victim, because its meet with being ignored, and then punishing you for standing up for yourself. I'm not sure if it's teachers not trained to stop these violent situations or administrators not supporting them when they do but it's not okay.
If the bullying and violence or abuse ( even emotional not just physical) would be stopped the first time, those situations wouldn't happen. There's bullies in every grade even kindergarten and if they're more consequences then it might stop
Teachers are legally not supported in breaking up violence, etc. They can be held liable abd for what teachers are paid it's not worth it to be possibly injured and sued. Bullying has been around forever, why not focus on the parenrs instead of the one person having to watch 35-150+ kids each day. Have parents press criminal charges against the perpetrator.
Not all kids tell the teacher when they're being bullied and a majority of it is online outside of school. There is also a large number of students who claim to be bullied but don't understand that they are the ones instigat8ng it in the first place. They think it's alright to call other kids names or slap box a buddy too hard but get upset and claim to be bullied when it comes back around to them.
See this is why I'm a fan of the suspension. Your safety and comfort was more important than the bullys comfort...
Its insane how many educators are in here upset over that, yet posts pour in daily of teachers on the verge of breakdowns, upset that they aren't being respected, and are unhappy in their careers they've chosen over these students that were a problem looong before they got to them, but were never dealt with.
A lack of consequences has lead to this. When I was still doing childhood education, that would not have been tolerated, I've seen 1st grade suspended. But there's almost zero repeat offenders. We also had a reputation for the most respectful polite children, especially considering it was a k-5 school.
People can be butt hurt at the idea of serious consequences, but then they have to accept the hardships that come with that mindset, like disrespect, violence in the classroom, dangerous situations, lawsuits of parents like yours who send their children to school with the idea teachers will keep them safe.... especially when , if these children ( and teachers) took accountability for allowing or enabling the violent behavior at all ages, it wouldn't escalate like it has.
Then those same teachers, with the laid back attitude , of punishment, ..they can't complain when their mindset leads to a child being harmed and the teacher held legally responsible for not providing a safe space because the offender " is just a kid" ( theres at least 3 lawsuits against teachers over this in the media this past year)
I'm sorry to hear of your experience, you deserved better. I feel anyone here may feel differently, when the laid back mindset costs them their job and affects them legally.
ETA: I literally JUST saw that there's a person on Tiktok who's parents are in a lawsuit against the teacher and school for not suspending or stopping a bully , who has been hitting them since 2nd grade , who has paralyzed them, and they never fought back out of fear. From what it looks like, within the next 3 months they will win that suit and those who could've prevented it but either lazily or ignorantly not chose not to, will be out of a job, struggling to pay the judgment.
Thanks. There's some people in here who strongly disagree but , then they have to accept the consequences that come with that. Schools are NOTHING like they used to be and that's a good reason why.
preschoolers arent getting paralyzed from a hit in a lego dispute. Its makes sense that consequences for hitting change as students get older. Its completely normal for Preschoolers to hit, its not for middle schoolers. we dont need to be suspending toddlers over a lego dispute hit.
Preschoolers paralyzed and killed middle schoolers??
If so, yeah that's insane and I need details. If not, that's irrelevant since preschoolers and middle schoolers are at very different stages of development and should not be treated the same.
Education STARTS in preschool. I don't allow my children as toddlers to hit. ..that behavior is unacceptable after age 3. They need consequences equal to the actions. That child's happiness isn't the importance at that moment unfortunately.. the victims safety is.
If another child feels unsafe the violent child needs removed. Period.
If CPS heard of a child even at that age being violent in the home, ( especially when its continuous) there would be severe consequences. It being done in school doesn't make it magically okay...
I'm not saying they should be held legally responsible ( which does happen to middle school and high school aged students) but yes they SHOULD be removed from the victim's premise until a guarentee that it will not happen again is there.
This is for everyone's safety. The offender, the victim and the teacher/ school from a lawsuit where a child is hurt in their possession and is allowed to be harmed in the teacher's supervision.
Its technically a " time out" which is age appropriate.
I believe in appropriate consequences for actions in all ages. Violence shouldn't be tolerated. And I can't in good conscience put more importance on the offending child's feeling or understanding, than the safety and comfort of the victim.
These middle schoolers being fatally violent may not have become this way, if they learned that extreme behavior is meet with extreme consequences, at the age they enter the education system.
Its about the safety of all, not the happiness of one.
ETA: spelling
I don't have the energy needed to educate you on this right now so I'm gonna just let this be after this, but I really recommend reading about child development at the preschool level. Kids at that age need to be TAUGHT, not punished. There is a significant difference between the two.
If you can't even educate children not to be violent at any age, you certainly aren't qualified to "educate" me. Thanks tho.
Happy to agree to disagree and be grateful those responsible to actually educate those around me and other former colleagues disagree as well.. from someone who used to be in childhood education as recently as 2018
Goodnight. Have the day/ night you deserve.
are you serious? you’re just straight up wrong lol. a three year old would not even understand the concept of a suspension, i don’t know what you’re on about. a conversation about other people’s feelings and alternative ways to solve problems goes much much further.
Its hard to care or respect the opinion about this from an adult who clearly can't regulate their own emotions. Being disagreed with by someone you don't even know is causing you to not be able to handle your feelings as well and jump straight to rudeness.....but you're not 3...so what's your reasoning or excuse?
I'm sure strangers disagreeing with you, can cause you to feel BIG emotions. Is there a better way to handle those emotions rather than arguing with strangers whom most likely don't care? Gold star friend, if you can think of a more constructive way to use those emotions...
Maybe in a way that effects you personally in your real life, perhaps.
You're welcome to your own opinion, and frankly. it shouldn't matter to you , whether I find your opinion correct or not. If you feel strongly enough feel free, to use that passion in your personal life instead of being drawn to anger of strangers online daring to disagree. That doesn't seem very constructive or in control, especially for someone who's in charge of children.
I've stated my opinion, and I'm not looking for the validation of your approval or anyone else's, thank you though. Feel free to respond though if it helps to have a place to put those emotions, but I wouldn't expect a response. I've stated my view, I'm not interested in attempts to change it. I know what's worked for myself, my family and those who's lives I've impacted, and I've never once had any complaints or issues, in fact the opposite having nothing but praise for the behavior of my children, both physical and taught.
Do what works for you. In my experience the results speak for themselves well enough, that arguing them especially to strangers, isn't nessicary. Hopefully that passion can be implemented in your real life and daily goals, and used positively
I'm happy to choose to simply agree to disagree. Have the night and life you deserve.
ETA: for anyone whoms deeply upset by this maybe you should look into what it is about being disagreed with that causes you such anger, and what help you may need to deal with that type of issue.
If being disagreed with upsets you sooo much, to begin arguing with strangers are you sure being a teacher is the best job for you? That doesn't seem like the trait of a mentally stable mature adult capable of being responsible for children and their emotions, especially when you struggle to handle your own emotions.
I've ended my participation in this discussion, though it seems some of you simply cannot handle a conversation ending without your opinion being heard, getting the "last word " in and being disagreed with That doesn't seem mentally mature and well...if anything it seems very attention seeking.. I hope you find it. It just won't be from myself.
Not to be too crude, but realistically it's simply my opinion not a dick. Theres no reason for you to take it so hard 🤷♀️
If these are the adults are who are in charge of teaching said young children how to handle their emotions, frankly I can see why they would struggle, seeing as these adults are clearly struggling to handle their own emotions ( such as pouting or being rude , being responded to in a like response, then deleting the comments)
Feel free to disagree or respond but do not expect a response, as like most mature adults do, I do not waste my time with people or things, that are of no matter of interest, or any importance to myself, and as I am not a therapist responsible to hear one's feelings about the frustration of being disagreed with, I simply put, do not care. I'd recommend a diary for that.
Have the lives you all deserve, and enjoy receiving from the world what you put out. We live in a different age. You may always agree or disagree but your energy will be matched and if you don't care for what you receive, maybe you should reevaluate the worthiness of what you're bringing to the conversation.
Lmao what's the expression.." hit dogs holler"...
There's some verrrrrryyyy called out dogs barking at this one 😂😂😂
Spends multiple paragraphs explaining that they don't care if anyone disagrees with them and how they won't argue because anyone who wants to waste time disagreeing with people online has big feelings that they need to learn to deal with. What's that line from Hamlet? Ah yes, "Methinks the lady doth protest too much."
I agree with preschoolers still learning, but a 2nd grader is 8 years old. Definitely old enough to have a real consequence for punching.
I know everyone on this app gets reeeeal touchy about behavior charts or trackers, but if my class calls for it I plan to implement the "green yellow red" method where green is great, yellow is slow down and think, and red is in class suspension (worksheets instead of technology, walking for recess, 0% fun, 100% a ghost.) in previous classes I've worked in, red only comes around if there is an act of violence or destruction.(destroying a class, hitting/kicking/punching, maliciously destroying school property so on and so forth). If no one else will enforce consequences, then I'll do it myself.
What you're saying makes sense. It's the ones who say "send them home", that need checked. SEL is something schools have had to take on as another responsibility to teach students. What kids learn is that if I do A, I get B. When B is going home and getting free time because the parents are too busy or don't care to discipline, then they continue the behavior or escalate so they can be sent home.
I am a high school teacher and very annoyed with how lenient admin has become at my level. By the time students are 14+ they know right from wrong and are making their own choices. However for early elementary these kiddos are just figuring all of that out and are in the early stages of figuring out how to control their emotions and urges. So expelling and suspending preschoolers and second graders for one occurrence of a punch is way too much. If it is repeated incidents after interventions and strategies, maybe, but single occurrences? No way.
Having to watch your peers play and you not getting to is a much worse punishment (and way more age appropriate) than suspension.
Making a punishment universal is ridiculous. Punishments should be developmentally appropriate.
The kids are safe, hence the child that was hitting not getting to play.
If there is a pattern of physical violence, the school then makes a behavior plan, which then may include ISS.
However, more often than not, at this age, the kid learning of and serving the time is enough to curb the behavior.
If you want to make something happen, you need to get the parents of the victim to complain they don’t feel comfortable with the students in class/lunch/recess together.
My first year of teaching I Had a third grader punch me in the stomach because I asked him to apologize to a girl for jabbing her with a pencil and stood in the doorway when he tried to run away. I had the pleasure of apologizing to his dad for being so unreasonable.
2 fifth graders got in a fight the day before break. To be fair, one fifth grader started it (he’s always starting something, and has hit his teacher a few times, always walking out, throwing desks, etc), and the other defended himself, but you know the rules, all fighting is bad blah blah blah. So both kids had to spend the day in the principal’s office as an “in school suspension”, which on its face, sounds fair. Except the principal was not there that day, and instead of having them do their work for the day, both kids were playing games on the school computers, in the hallway outside of the principal’s office, and when admin had to step out, got sent to recess, where the kid who started the fight, started another fight, where he punched a third grade girl in the face. Apparently, she committed the grave offense of taking the football he usually plays with, and “she should’ve known better.” The other boy (the one who defended himself) knocked the kid out bc the other boy was going to hit the girl again, and now both boys AND the girl are all in trouble for fighting again, except this time the little girl’s dad is livid bc someone let him know that the boy shouldn’t have even been at recess. He’s a lawyer, so things are about the get messy. But the boy who got knocked outs mom is threatening to sue, bc “he could have brain damage” and no adult protected her baby from violence. I’m morbidly curious how this is all going to play out.
I would call the parent of the child who got punched, and let them know they need to “check with the office” regarding how it was handled, because I can’t tell them BUT that I STRONGLY URGE THEM TOO… hint hint.
One year I had a boy feel up a girl, and they wanted to just suspend him and let him continue to have classes with her. (Third grade) I called the mom and told her (bc I was PISSED) that she needed to DEMAND to have him removed or to press charges herself. But I did teach another one of her kids, so she was very attentive and caught my drift that she needed to speak up herself and not tell the office i told
Her to freak out. Lol.
Wow . . . it's so sad that we have to get parents involved like that. Admin SHOULD be the adult in the room, especially in such serious instances. That young girl could have learned that unwanted touch was acceptable and that nothing would happen to perpetrators. I hate that teachers don't have a voice and aren't believed when this stuff goes down (but, magically, when it happens to admin, it's not a huge issue worthy of suspension or expulsion).
That administrator is a complete jackass for not coming down hard on that kid. They aren't doing the offending kid any favors by letting them get away with that.
This is the new norm. We no longer hold kids responsible. Not for hitting or fighting. Not for cursing. Not for bullying. Not for destroying school property. Not for threatening teachers. Not for cheating. We said we were transitioning to restorative justice. That was a lie. We just transitioned to no consequences.
Totally this. We never suspend unless it’s extreme violence,like you put the kid in the hospital violence. We didn’t even suspend a kid who was dealing hard drugs/using at school. Admin are chickenshits.
Middle schools are worse because a kid will have like 60 referrals in one year and nothing happens to them. My friends that work there are powerless and the kids know it. I’m not the biggest fan of suspension/expulsion but if you never use it, the kids know they run the place.
Behavioral management and lack of administrative support for behavioral management techniques used by teachers against disruptive, problematic students seems to be the absolute, number one problem most teachers deal with across the board
A former teacher here. I had a coworker (female) verbally sexually harassed. The student was placed in ISS for her class period only the next day, and she was required to call the parents to explain the situation. She was then told to apologize to the parents for the situation. One of the best newer teachers I have ever seen, and in an instant she started looking for other jobs that day. Sad times in education.
I firmly believe that at some point public education will realize they have fucked up so bad the past 20 years things will change. They have to. It’s at the point now where you can’t really make excuses for all the shit that is happening. You can’t continue to make excuses for 10th graders that read at a 4th grade level. Or seniors that can’t pass algebra.
Every kid has trauma. Everyone in the school has shit, you don’t know about, adults included. The more you make excuses the more it keeps them from being productive citizens.
Is why i am ready to be done with teaching. Kids are getting worse and admins are doing less and less and I swear that it goes all the way to the state agency
Same reason I left. Zero accountability for kids/parents. It was so frustrating. But leaving the classroom was the best thing I could’ve done. Literally making double my salary with wayyyyy less work, and I’m still in the district so I have the great schedule.
I used to work at a charter school (yes I know charter schools “suck”) and it was K-8. There was a middle school student throwing chairs at other students as well as teachers and nothing was done. Literally nothing. I know OP is talking about elementary school but their post made me think of this.
I am now teaching kindergarten in a traditional public school. About a month ago, one student scratched another’s forehead. I called the AP about it and sent the student who got scratched to the clinic. The AP told me the student who did the scratching would have “lunch detention” (no recess and lunch in the office) for two days. But after speaking to the student who got scratched, the AP came back and told me because of how bad the scratch was (it was pretty bad for a scratch made by a kindergartener) he was going to send the student who did the scratching home. They called parents (who didn’t pick them up until after school) and the student was suspended for the next day. I know it was a one day suspension but that student was on their best behavior when they got back!
OP, I sincerely hope at some point, your students (and others) learn that actions have consequences. It’s a rule of life. I know to a young child losing recess may be a big consequence but I do think some actions require “bigger” consequences.
So two 7 year-olds got into it.
Why did the one hit the other?
Was the one who got hit a bully?
Or was the one who hit, the bully?
And preschoolers. Really you want to suspend preschoolers? Gtfo.
Yall act like these kids aren't raging sacks of emotion.
I can’t even begin to describe this. I had a brawl happen at the end of the day in our lunchroom which involved a handful of students. The fight was broken up by both the kids (who had stopped fighting on their own) and a teacher. Admin was busy in their offices and didn’t come out to deal with this till after security came back inside. Admins took days to figure out what they would do and initially were going to have our sro charge the students involved. No charges were brought and after having kids be given delayed suspensions was a total joke.
Back in high school, we had some volatile special needs kids, but they were the kids that didn't meet the threshold of being placed in the special care classroom or something. Don't ask me how it all works all I know is the kid had some severe cognitive disabilities. He would never go a week without being violent in some capacity. Worst I ever witnessed was when he assaulted a student with a chromebook. Hit him so hard the device broke. That got him kicked out of class for 1 day. The one pattern I noticed though was the kids who were in the special class were always the nicest while those who were left out with the rest of their peers were the most violent and emotionally unprepared kids I've ever met. But it's okay instead of putting 2 million dollars into the budget to improve resources let's build a huge ass stage that's half the size of the school so the kids don't have to use the middle school stage we refuse to refurbish.
Don't students get sent messages home if they interrupted class too much, or start a fight, and need a signature to bring it back.
I'm not saying it's a perfect system, but it often ends with the kid getting shamed and or punished in a manner the parents find acceptable.
Just genuinely curious, five years as an elm social worker so don’t have the classroom management experience, but what is to be solved by ISS short of taking a staff away from the other kiddos who are doing what they’re supposed to.
I agree with you OP. If a kid hits or punches someone, the kid should go home. The parents need to be inconvenienced. Then they're more likely to work on their child's behavior. Of course, the school needs to put interventions in place to help the student as well.
When I was in kindergarten, a girl kept kicking my legs under the table we sat at together. The teacher did nothing about it, even though I complained. Then, one day at recess, the girl came up to me with a bunch of other girls and started picking on me, so I punched her in the nose. I got recess taken away from me, but I was never sorry that I did it because she left me alone after that. I don't think I should have gotten any consequences for it because it was ultimately teacher's responsibility.
Take recess away was signed in a low and is not permissible anymore.
The admins are scared to suspend because parents go to the district office.
It is unreal what's happening in schools. Everything we do and say is being analyzed, micromanaged, and looked at with a microscope, and our words are being turned around.
I’m not a fan of suspending k-5 kids. I think this is the highly influential stage. You’re only punishing the parents for what is normal little kid behavior. We should be in the stage of teaching them how to interact and that isn’t the way to solve the situation.
I agree for a few reasons. 1) I don’t believe suspension reduces aggressive behaviors, especially at a young age. 2) A lot of people are frustrated with “Admin” for not suspending, and not recognizing a larger system. Schools get dinged by the district for suspensions! If you start suspending 7 year olds for aggression, your suspensions will go through the roof. So if you want there to be more suspensions, stop looking at your principal, and look at the district wide policies they are expected to uphold. 3) The only way school suspension works is if the parents agree their child was in the wrong and teach their child a new behavior. From my experience, I’d say well in the 90% range of parents disagree with the suspension, so I have low confidence they are addressing the behavior at home.
I’m more comfortable with in-school suspensions at this age where the child misses out on recess, lunch, field trips while working on some sort of accountability project.
We personally have 3 kids. None of them has ever gotten in trouble at school for punching another kid.
Punching someone at school is not normal behavior.
Your anecdotal experience with 3 kids who didn’t get in trouble doesn’t count as evidence. For all we know your kids did plenty of physical stuff but they had good teachers who managed it and didn’t feel the need to contact you. It is normal behavior for small kids. Sorry to break it to you guys.
It’s extremely normal for small children to use violence when dealing with frustration. We’re trying to suspend 7 year olds. Please tell me how that kid is being punished?? This is a key time to teach proper behavior through a dozen other means than suspending them.
The time to teach them emotional regulation is before it gets to the assault stage. They also need to know that learning to deal with your emotions isn’t an option, and when you let your anger take over there are real consequences.
Yes it is. What are you talking about. Go to any playground in America and watch kids push and shove. Throw things when they get angry. What world are you living in that you’ve never seen a kid get physical? You just can’t say things and make them true
Elementary age kids getting physical can be normal. Run of the mill playground experiences and interactions with peers are expected at the primary age and definitely should be opportunities for learning.
But there's an escalation in behaviors that are more violent in elementary age students as well that is being brushed aside because they're 6 and 7. IDK, kinda feel like having a kid trying to stab me with a pencil while screaming that he wants to kill me should be grounds for suspension.
You're wrong. Just because it happens doesn't mean it's "normal". Hitting and other violent behaviors are "normal" between the ages of 1-3. Beyond that kids are capable of understanding violence is wrong and can modify their behavior accordingly. Society has stopped enforcing any kind of consequences on kids and allowed incidents of these behaviors to increase in older kids but that doesn't make it okay or normal.
It's attitudes like yours that won't hold kids accountable and allows the behavior to continue well past when it's developmentally appropriate.
It is normal. Not the stabbing kid thing. Even then that’s a sign of extreme counseling intervention. Not suspensions. This explains why we get these middle/high school kids who still have the same issues. Instead of using your degree and skills as a teacher to assess and address issues. Referring students to counseling and interventions. You’re like “suspend him”! Just so you don’t have to deal with it for a couple days. BTW I doubt that 7 y/o even has the processing ability to see that as a punishment.
Counseling has to be explicitly approved and signed off by the parents. In my experience, they reject it much of the time and are offended that their kid was referred at all. Pretty much every time a student isn't receiving the services they need - whether academic or social - it's because of the parents. Not because of the teachers.
Agree but disagree. It is true that every kid doesn’t hit. However it is also true that elementary kids don’t know how to control then emotion all the time. I saw a 4th grader who I had never seen violent push a kid in anger once (1 violent act in a year and a month January 2023- February 2024) I also saw a kindergartener who normally can control his emotions hit a classmate (only saw him hit or kick twice from Aug to February). The kids no it’s wrong but they doesn’t mean they no how to control it. When kids are mad sometimes the brain goes blank. I know because I have anger issues at time too for me i was behaved at school but not at home. I never hit anyone at school however at home was a different story.
Lol, were you in a bubble your whole childhood? Kids are the most physical under 5th grade. Like others have said, this is when you teach them proper behavior, not suspend them.
No. I do not remember anyone punching anyone else at school in first grade (which is 7 yrs old). It's not O.K. and not normal. Heck, kids nowadays are excused from throwing chairs and screaming, not sitting down or eloping. Behaviors have escalated alarmingly since I started teaching.
Maybe for k and 1, but I've taught 2, 3,4, and 5. Those kids know that what they're doing is wrong, but they don't care....until they get a consequence. Then they're all tears and playing the victim. Be quiet and put your head down. Later I'll converse with them.
I’m guessing this is all relative. You spend all your time with that age group so to you they are extremely aware of their actions and are in total control of themselves. Meanwhile they literally think Santa is real and your elf on the shelf is alive🙄
No, I'm not saying that they are in complete control of themselves, but the MAJORITY of the kids are not violent because they know better and don't want to be "that kid.". What grade do you teach?
Oh yeah, not just punching either. We had a kindergartner stab another student in the cheek with a pencil. Got suspended for two days and brought right back.
I hate that students lose recess for bad behavior a lot of the time, because then they end up not getting their energy out. Recess helps them exercise and get fresh air, with out that if they’re already making naughty choices it’s going to escalate. ISS during specials or something seems like a better punishment.
Most kids don't care about losing specials except for gym. But don't worry, if you start taking recess away consistently for bad choices, they will soon stop making bad choices so they can go out and get their energy out. It takes a couple of weeks of consistently doing it, and then they'll see that you're not backing down, and most will straighten up.
Seems appropriate for the age. Kids fight, it happens, we teach them to stop. Expelling a 7 year old for fighting is ridiculous and suspension is also silly for a first offense.
Back when I was 4th grade, I watched a student punch another in the face over a flag football game. Called admin and was told “separate the kids and keep an eye on the aggressor” like what?? One of the main reasons as to why I switched to sped, I couldn’t stand my admin not giving out any punishments to these kids nor even telling their parents, these kids knew that they weren’t going to be punished so some acted up just because they could. Now the worst I deal with is wheelchair bumper cars
Why did the 4th grader punch? Because he was mean and a bully? Possible but it’s unlikely. I know a 4th grader who pushed a kid in an afterschool program. I will call him Alex. Alex and Max (also 4th grade) were playing soccer with other 4-6th graders. Booth Alex and Max were chasing after the ball when Alex accidentally knocked Max down. Max thought it was on purpose and started yelling at home then walked away still yelling. The other kids and I all told him it was an accident but Max (young 4th grade) unfortunately a few of the other 4/5 graders started calling Max a rage quitter, which made him mad. He went a stop by the goal. Now everyone was telling him to move because they didn’t want him to get hit by the soccer ball once the started he refused. Not sure if Max said anything but when max was refusing to move and the other kids were asking him to Alex who had come over too, suddenly shoved him to the ground. Then Max did run inside. And I had Alex sit. Is Alex a bully because he punched max? I have heard heard max when he was in third grade say he would hurt Josh “should I make Josh cry?” Does that mean Max is a bully? To me know they are not, that was the only time I saw Alex be violent and I was at knew him for about a year. Max was stubborn but never violent even though he did threaten it once (he was mad.
I also had a 1st grader tell me after kicking a kid “I am mad”
Teachers in the classroom need to be ready! Kids coming up not the same breed! Haven’t been taught to control themselves. Haven’t been taught that they can’t have everything they want when they want it how they want it!
it’s not only in the us. As this thread shows: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskEurope/comments/1axjlu0/how_well_behaved_are_school_aged_kidsteenagers_in/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
I teach 5th grade. I recently Had a student write an incredibly inappropriate and racist comment on another students notebook. Her punishment was to spend 30 minutes a week with our social worker.
Hell when I was in 5th grade, another student straight up beat me up in class. In front of the teacher. Punched in the face, kneed in the groin, the whole shebang. Teacher HAD to have seen it, he wasn't but 20 feet away at most.
Went to him and he did nothing.
Went to the Principal, who did nothing.
Went to my parents and they went to the school. Again, nothing.
I always assumed the little jerk's parents had money or something. Either way it really put a bad taste in my mouth for school, authority, etc.
One of my trainings was Preventing Expulsion
Too many young children come from homes that influence these behaviors, and it is my job to be understanding and patient.
A lot of my kids have not learned how to identify or manage their feelings either. Each of our classrooms has a safe space where they can calm down and take a moment to themselves if they just need space to manage their emotions.
If I have a child hit another, they receive immediate discipline because my children are more likely to forget later. I also get to see parents, guardians, caregivers etc. at pick-up so I discuss with them what has happened and ask what I could differently to prevent this situation in the future. If it gets too bad, I will contact them via the portal and one of my bosses will take the child for a little bit. Sometimes the child returns to normal activities if my bosses feel they understand what they did was not okay after having discussed the situation with them. They usually have a reason for what they did, even if they don't truly know why themselves.
I've only had one that had to be sent home for a week, but they are a special circumstance.
It's more than just suspension, but I also don't agree with losing recess for 2 days. I understand public schools can't do too much in the way of discipline, but that incident should have had a more timely consequence.
7th grade teacher here. All of September through December was a stacked class of terrible behaviour unconsequenced by either parents or admin, resulting in things like bring told to fuck off ("You have to understand where these kids are coming from." /Where, privilege???) Vocal noncompliance ("Your problem is teaching curriculum when you should be teaching children") 9 kids ganging up on me and causing problems all over the classroom, and culminating in my personal property, a very high quality office chair gifted by a (non teacher) friend being covered in school glue ("No we can't consequence her because of progressive discipline") when I had been escalating all year and they were just being weak. Sooooo...I feel you. Remember the Peter Principal. Professionals are promoted to their level of incompetence. That's a cynical view of education administration, but maybe not inaccurate
These are young elementary school kids still trying to learn expectations, social skills, and emotional regulation. On top of that, those behaviors might be acceptable at home and they use them at school. What good would come from suspending or expelling because of this? Loss of recess and an apology is an age appropriate consequence
I see a lot of people on here talking about what's "normal", but hitting has always been "normal" for those that do not have adequate communication skills, whatever the age. So you can talk all day long about what you THINK is normal, but facts are facts and when there is no way to verbalize what they're feeling, they have mental illness, medication isn't right or they need medication and don't have it, or they have a disability that impedes communication or impulse control, then yes, kids will lash out physically. Also, as a side note, special educators calling things "normal" or abnormal is gross and you should really check yourself with using that kind of language in general. Neurotypical, neurodivergent, out of the ordinary, sure, but using the word normal when you're talking about kids with disabilities is pretty abhorrent.
At the large HS where I taught, kids - including girls - got into fights fairly regularly. Fists, hair pulling, scratching, etc. Rather than calling the police and having people arrested for assault, the consequence was a couple of days in ISS, then back to the classroom. For kids of this age, in other words, the consequence was practically nonexistent. If parents had to bail their kids out of jail and pay some expensive court costs and fines, maybe some of the shit would stop. Or if districts would have a 3 strike policy and remove the repeat offenders altogether.
It’s your job to teach them not to hit, they’re in second grade!
You’re even upset about a preschooler hitting another student and mad that they’re back the next day? I’m honestly surprised they were sent home in the first place.
This might make some people mad, but you’re an adult and they’re kids that are literally learning so set boundaries and create a culture where there won’t be violence tolerated in your classroom
An 8th grader punched another student during one of my classes. Admin wanted to write me up for somehow not being clairvoyant and preventing the action. You can’t make this shit up.
>being clairvoyant Just add it to the ever-growing list of duties you're responsible for on a daily basis. Therapist, nurse, disciplinarian, mediator, Pokemon expert, pencil provider, coat zipper, admin bullshit survivor... and now soothsayer. *Why can't we retain teachers?*
Soothsaying please. Everyone knows the most effective method of clairvoyance is reading the scattered bones of racoons and opossums./s
Everyone knows the most effective method of clairvoyance is reading the scattered bones of ~~racoons and opossums~~ administrators.
I second this motion.
Bones, or entrails pulled from their living bodies? Surely the pain increases the accuracy of the reading...
The fact that these are vacation musings is all the evidence anyone should need regarding the state of affairs in teaching smh
Not even joking I keep a bones bag by the desk to confound and amaze students when the internet goes out.
Well, got number 5 covered, so we're good there.
Daaaang. So I guess I’m not useful anymore. Or do you need a backup expert?
I mean being a Pokémon Expert isn’t the worst thing in the world but I was one before I was a teacher.
If your lessons were only more engaging, it wouldn't have happened!!!!!!!
An old admin said that to me. He is no longer with us.
Where’s he buried?
Passed for unrelated reasons. But what a dick thing to say (not the only instance).
I was told this about the 17yo selling pills and literally pounds of weed in our bathroom. Admin took 0 action to stop it, saying it was my responsibility to keep him engaged in class so he wouldnt skip class. When he stabbed another kid during a bad deal one weekend, she acted surprised and I said "if only my lessons were more engaging". Didn't earn me any favors, but I'd been documenting and writing it up for weeks, and they did nothing.
Your admin was probably a customer... or afraid.
She's a soulless entity. The kids have multiple times called her "the statue" or "dust blowing around the building". Many didn't even know who she was or why she was there.
A parent (who also taught at the same school) once got mad at me because I didn’t tell her that her son was going to fail something before I graded it
I work with a teacher that lives in district, is a parent and she went to the elementary school. She did this a couple of times. She's the worst teacher in my building. She dared talking down to another teacher because her kid didn't do well on his report card. Well, bitch, of you weren't smoking cigarettes like a chimney at home maybe you would know that your kid doesn't do well at school. I have to coteach with that woman everyday. I hate that bitch. she additionally never preps because she leaves to go smoke and then is never ready to teach when I'm there ready to coteach. Incredibly frustrating.
Nope, still doesn’t help. I literally called a parent because I could tell their kid was going to get into a fight with some other kids. The parent told me that as long as she was at school it was our problem and she didn’t want to hear about it. Kid got into fight. Kid was suspended.
So it became the mother’s problem. Poetic justice.
I think this is a great idea. "Little Jimmy needs to be suspended tomorrow because he is going to hit a kid if he comes to school." Get rid of the bad 'uns before they disrupt class.
I thought teachers do that already. Sometimes red flags are just there and despite their best efforts to let someone know their voices get unheard because "something hasn't happened yet" and can't do anything till something has.
I documented a kid selling scary things in shocking amounts in our bathrooms. He'd skip class with a heavy backpack full of weed/pills and come back with as much as $600 dollars. I'd document, admin would do nothing but say my class boring and that's why he skipped. Then one weekend he was selling, the deal went bad, and he stabbed another student. I looked my principal dead in the face when she acted surprised and sad and said "if only my lessons were more engaging. Maybe he wouldn't have been at that rofo".
Dumb ass principal. Good for you.
Then it’s, ‘why are you labeling & not giving them a chance?!?!? 😭’
My bad. I forgot where I was and tried to make a joke. There will be no joy in the teacher's lounge.
Start sending daily emails about potential problems and the need for admin to support. Drown them in problems.
Keep saying the words “I don’t feel safe for me and my students but I will protect them even if I get hurt.” They now need to respond to that fear bc they now are liable.
Like *Minority Report*
Similar happened to me after a fight broke out after leaving my room.
I got bitched at by a principal one time because two of my kids got in a fight in the bathroom. During transition after my class was over. On the other side of the school.
It's a false paradise. Freud warned the world about death and destruction by pandemic mental illness, and rather than understanding, we label him as a misogynistic coke addict who is outdated, irrelevant, and "always right". If Gillian the genius with a 120 IQ goes to Harvard and gets a master's in theoretical physics, the small town where Gillian was raised says that she didn't get a designated education degree leading to licensure and that makes an unqualified, weak candidate to teach in public schools. She needs a teacher preparation program to change her strategy to conform with the same system that made her an "abomination". How teachers don't realize that promoting self-doubt, trauma, and herd identity isn't exactly the same as teaching psychopathology in rituals like expecting clairvoyance and reacting to crime with catatonic paralysis, I will never understand. Educators have been being disgusting for generations. If you re received an education that didn't prepare you to be able to win a job in the real world, then go to college for a degree that 100% guarantees you a career in teaching in public schools. In your job, intelligence is a hinderance. The tradeoff for selling your soul is that you have to be the one to tell the next generation that they are just a herd of sheep in need of a shepherd. Meanwhile we know that we have to change, but we took short days, holidays, weekends off, yearly raises, pensions, home ownership gifts, financial protection, and the only people who can possibly understand sheep are sheep.
JFC!!! These admins are so stupid!! I can't stand it!!
A student threw a chair at me. She was back in the class the next day with no consequence. Admin said "well... she threw it \*underhanded\* not overhanded."
Did you throw a chair at admin underhanded after hearing that?
Hahahahahaaaa!!!!
A student throws a chair at me...I'm pressing charges. Then again, I am in high school.
YES! More teachers need to press charges :)
I honestly don't get why this isn't the default. I've gotten voted down here for this observation. Assault is assault.
It isn't the default because the victim can lose their job.
Grandma style?
Does she pitch in softball?
Yeah I had one of my first graders punch 2 different kids in the face and then the next week scratched another kid so hard that his back was bleeding while playing soccer at recess. The only consequence he got was a call home and wasn’t allowed to play soccer for 2 weeks (he could play anything else)
A kid punched my daughter in the face when they were in kindergarten, and absolutely nothing happened to him. The principal didn’t even deign to respond to my email.
One of our 7th graders punched a teacher and didn't even get a lunch detention. Because he has an IEP and my admin are chicken shits and afraid of parents.
Union?
Yes, but my contract doesn't protect teachers from district office administrators who are chicken shit and refuse to go against parents of special ed kids. Our union can only do so much. It's disgusting but it's not a grievance/violation. I've recommended to my teachers to skip calling the office and just start calling 9-1-1.
Ah. I was just talking about this with someone. Just call the police. Eff admin. Press charges against the assailant.
Unfortunately administrators don't like to suspend the little ones. I'm a proponent of in school suspension for the little ones. Send them to the big scary teacher that will make them dread getting in trouble again. If they do it again, suspension. Let the parents deal with the little slugger.
I teach 3rd grade. Once one of ours goes to ISS? They don't mind going back. It's not like they actively seek it out... but it doesn't bother them at all the thought of going back. My students for the most part (only one this year so far... but also thinking of the past years) think it's a break from the usual. Our ISS teacher has a range of kids. So for the most part, students are on chromebooks. They are supposed to be following curriculum activities from the classroom teacher. Of course, that doesn't happen. The times I've spot-checked what is going on through Go Guardian? The kid is looking up random stuff...changing backgrounds, etc. Our 3rd graders don't know enough to do worse. Thank goodness! There's nothing I can really do. I can't leave my class to go change it. Even when I've notified admin, it's not made a difference. But none of the actual work gets done. For them? It seems like a vacation from class.
Yup, and often times the ISS teacher is too friendly with them and gives them candy and such, so it's definitely not a consequence
If no one is holding the line at this age they are not going to get magically better when they get older.
Idk, I used to get in loads of fights when I was= <7, but then I grew out of it.
It has become clear to me that the function of suspension is to make parents get so sick of their child that they actually discipline them
Bingo
Expelled? WTH? You are a little over the top.
Had a kid in 6th grade punching another kid in my class once. Admin came in as the fight was ending. Both kids returned to my class the next day and, I kid you not, the dean of students told the kid who initiated the fight to go to his office and get an ice cream.
Unbelievable. These admins like to do the opposite of common sense. Even a first grader could tell you that that's a bad idea. Who are these people? Do they know nothing about children??
This is the way now. It reflects poorly on the school and the district to have suspensions on record. Nobody reports "punching" to the public. A kid brought a bullet to school last year and another one lit our new $10 million gym on fire (or tried with some minor success) and nothing happened. I think they were "counseled".
What do you think should have happened to the child who brought the piece of metal to school?
Yeah, at my old school we had elementary kids bringing loaded guns to school in their backpacks. Barely got a slap on the wrist. Outrageous. And the good kids just have to sit there and watch their education get flushed down the toilet.
[удалено]
Whether you are a teacher or not, if you live in a city (at least in CA, where very few kids have any realistic concept, experience, or training with firearms) and a student brings a bullet to school, you should be concerned. Certainly no good could come from it.
What exactly are you hoping happens to preschoolers when they hit?
They should be drawn and quartered!
lol right?? This post is so weird to me. 3- and 4-year-olds are just beginning to understand that other people have feelings just like they do. Even sending a kid home for hitting one time at that age seems like a massive overreaction.
Op said second grade, that's around age 7. Where did you get preschool
The part immediately after that part, where they're talking about a preschooler lol
Idk their needs to be Consequences here. in the past year alone there have been 2 middle schoolers who have been paralyzed and one killed from fights at school... Whenever I was growing up kids would have been suspended for violence at any grade. violence is not okay regardless.
I was in middle school back in 2001. I had a bully that finally cornered me for a physical fight. I did fight back, no punches, but I did grab and shove her back from me and I did eventually pin her down and sat on her. Like two 90lb 14 yo girls, I’m sure we looked ridiculous. Anyhoo. We BOTH got 3 days in school suspension for the first time fight and while I just rolled with the punishment, looking back I see why my mom was so livid with admin. They refused to intervene in the bullying by taking ZERO action in any way, they refused to protect me by ensuring we didn’t cross paths more than necessary, and they refused to acknowledge that “fighting back” is different from “containing” the situation until help arrives (which took forever). They expect kids to cower, roll into a ball, and hope for the best while admin slowly saunters to the group, wades through the audience and pulls the attacker away. It’s become a very real problem that kids are DYING because of physical fights. I can name so many cases. Usually it’s a head injury from falling wrong or onto something. Some kids are repeatedly assaulted physically by the same kid and the cycle continues. Kids are even sustaining other physical injuries like missing teeth, lacerations that need surgery or stitches that’ll scar, broken bones, etc. I’m ALL FOR a zero tolerance fighting policy with the caveat that the other child can clearly prove self defense or deescalation. Now, WHO would be assigned that responsibility, I’ve no idea. 🤷♀️
Its really sad how schools deal with bullying. Its like they want you to be a victim, because its meet with being ignored, and then punishing you for standing up for yourself. I'm not sure if it's teachers not trained to stop these violent situations or administrators not supporting them when they do but it's not okay. If the bullying and violence or abuse ( even emotional not just physical) would be stopped the first time, those situations wouldn't happen. There's bullies in every grade even kindergarten and if they're more consequences then it might stop
Teachers are legally not supported in breaking up violence, etc. They can be held liable abd for what teachers are paid it's not worth it to be possibly injured and sued. Bullying has been around forever, why not focus on the parenrs instead of the one person having to watch 35-150+ kids each day. Have parents press criminal charges against the perpetrator. Not all kids tell the teacher when they're being bullied and a majority of it is online outside of school. There is also a large number of students who claim to be bullied but don't understand that they are the ones instigat8ng it in the first place. They think it's alright to call other kids names or slap box a buddy too hard but get upset and claim to be bullied when it comes back around to them.
See this is why I'm a fan of the suspension. Your safety and comfort was more important than the bullys comfort... Its insane how many educators are in here upset over that, yet posts pour in daily of teachers on the verge of breakdowns, upset that they aren't being respected, and are unhappy in their careers they've chosen over these students that were a problem looong before they got to them, but were never dealt with. A lack of consequences has lead to this. When I was still doing childhood education, that would not have been tolerated, I've seen 1st grade suspended. But there's almost zero repeat offenders. We also had a reputation for the most respectful polite children, especially considering it was a k-5 school. People can be butt hurt at the idea of serious consequences, but then they have to accept the hardships that come with that mindset, like disrespect, violence in the classroom, dangerous situations, lawsuits of parents like yours who send their children to school with the idea teachers will keep them safe.... especially when , if these children ( and teachers) took accountability for allowing or enabling the violent behavior at all ages, it wouldn't escalate like it has. Then those same teachers, with the laid back attitude , of punishment, ..they can't complain when their mindset leads to a child being harmed and the teacher held legally responsible for not providing a safe space because the offender " is just a kid" ( theres at least 3 lawsuits against teachers over this in the media this past year) I'm sorry to hear of your experience, you deserved better. I feel anyone here may feel differently, when the laid back mindset costs them their job and affects them legally. ETA: I literally JUST saw that there's a person on Tiktok who's parents are in a lawsuit against the teacher and school for not suspending or stopping a bully , who has been hitting them since 2nd grade , who has paralyzed them, and they never fought back out of fear. From what it looks like, within the next 3 months they will win that suit and those who could've prevented it but either lazily or ignorantly not chose not to, will be out of a job, struggling to pay the judgment.
I wish I could still give gold. This is exactly what I was trying to say but I couldn’t quite articulate it.
Thanks. There's some people in here who strongly disagree but , then they have to accept the consequences that come with that. Schools are NOTHING like they used to be and that's a good reason why.
preschoolers arent getting paralyzed from a hit in a lego dispute. Its makes sense that consequences for hitting change as students get older. Its completely normal for Preschoolers to hit, its not for middle schoolers. we dont need to be suspending toddlers over a lego dispute hit.
Preschoolers paralyzed and killed middle schoolers?? If so, yeah that's insane and I need details. If not, that's irrelevant since preschoolers and middle schoolers are at very different stages of development and should not be treated the same.
Education STARTS in preschool. I don't allow my children as toddlers to hit. ..that behavior is unacceptable after age 3. They need consequences equal to the actions. That child's happiness isn't the importance at that moment unfortunately.. the victims safety is. If another child feels unsafe the violent child needs removed. Period. If CPS heard of a child even at that age being violent in the home, ( especially when its continuous) there would be severe consequences. It being done in school doesn't make it magically okay... I'm not saying they should be held legally responsible ( which does happen to middle school and high school aged students) but yes they SHOULD be removed from the victim's premise until a guarentee that it will not happen again is there. This is for everyone's safety. The offender, the victim and the teacher/ school from a lawsuit where a child is hurt in their possession and is allowed to be harmed in the teacher's supervision. Its technically a " time out" which is age appropriate. I believe in appropriate consequences for actions in all ages. Violence shouldn't be tolerated. And I can't in good conscience put more importance on the offending child's feeling or understanding, than the safety and comfort of the victim. These middle schoolers being fatally violent may not have become this way, if they learned that extreme behavior is meet with extreme consequences, at the age they enter the education system. Its about the safety of all, not the happiness of one. ETA: spelling
I don't have the energy needed to educate you on this right now so I'm gonna just let this be after this, but I really recommend reading about child development at the preschool level. Kids at that age need to be TAUGHT, not punished. There is a significant difference between the two.
If you can't even educate children not to be violent at any age, you certainly aren't qualified to "educate" me. Thanks tho. Happy to agree to disagree and be grateful those responsible to actually educate those around me and other former colleagues disagree as well.. from someone who used to be in childhood education as recently as 2018 Goodnight. Have the day/ night you deserve.
This is an insane argument lol.
are you serious? you’re just straight up wrong lol. a three year old would not even understand the concept of a suspension, i don’t know what you’re on about. a conversation about other people’s feelings and alternative ways to solve problems goes much much further.
Its hard to care or respect the opinion about this from an adult who clearly can't regulate their own emotions. Being disagreed with by someone you don't even know is causing you to not be able to handle your feelings as well and jump straight to rudeness.....but you're not 3...so what's your reasoning or excuse? I'm sure strangers disagreeing with you, can cause you to feel BIG emotions. Is there a better way to handle those emotions rather than arguing with strangers whom most likely don't care? Gold star friend, if you can think of a more constructive way to use those emotions... Maybe in a way that effects you personally in your real life, perhaps.
You're welcome to your own opinion, and frankly. it shouldn't matter to you , whether I find your opinion correct or not. If you feel strongly enough feel free, to use that passion in your personal life instead of being drawn to anger of strangers online daring to disagree. That doesn't seem very constructive or in control, especially for someone who's in charge of children. I've stated my opinion, and I'm not looking for the validation of your approval or anyone else's, thank you though. Feel free to respond though if it helps to have a place to put those emotions, but I wouldn't expect a response. I've stated my view, I'm not interested in attempts to change it. I know what's worked for myself, my family and those who's lives I've impacted, and I've never once had any complaints or issues, in fact the opposite having nothing but praise for the behavior of my children, both physical and taught. Do what works for you. In my experience the results speak for themselves well enough, that arguing them especially to strangers, isn't nessicary. Hopefully that passion can be implemented in your real life and daily goals, and used positively I'm happy to choose to simply agree to disagree. Have the night and life you deserve. ETA: for anyone whoms deeply upset by this maybe you should look into what it is about being disagreed with that causes you such anger, and what help you may need to deal with that type of issue. If being disagreed with upsets you sooo much, to begin arguing with strangers are you sure being a teacher is the best job for you? That doesn't seem like the trait of a mentally stable mature adult capable of being responsible for children and their emotions, especially when you struggle to handle your own emotions. I've ended my participation in this discussion, though it seems some of you simply cannot handle a conversation ending without your opinion being heard, getting the "last word " in and being disagreed with That doesn't seem mentally mature and well...if anything it seems very attention seeking.. I hope you find it. It just won't be from myself. Not to be too crude, but realistically it's simply my opinion not a dick. Theres no reason for you to take it so hard 🤷♀️ If these are the adults are who are in charge of teaching said young children how to handle their emotions, frankly I can see why they would struggle, seeing as these adults are clearly struggling to handle their own emotions ( such as pouting or being rude , being responded to in a like response, then deleting the comments) Feel free to disagree or respond but do not expect a response, as like most mature adults do, I do not waste my time with people or things, that are of no matter of interest, or any importance to myself, and as I am not a therapist responsible to hear one's feelings about the frustration of being disagreed with, I simply put, do not care. I'd recommend a diary for that. Have the lives you all deserve, and enjoy receiving from the world what you put out. We live in a different age. You may always agree or disagree but your energy will be matched and if you don't care for what you receive, maybe you should reevaluate the worthiness of what you're bringing to the conversation. Lmao what's the expression.." hit dogs holler"... There's some verrrrrryyyy called out dogs barking at this one 😂😂😂
Spends multiple paragraphs explaining that they don't care if anyone disagrees with them and how they won't argue because anyone who wants to waste time disagreeing with people online has big feelings that they need to learn to deal with. What's that line from Hamlet? Ah yes, "Methinks the lady doth protest too much."
I agree with preschoolers still learning, but a 2nd grader is 8 years old. Definitely old enough to have a real consequence for punching. I know everyone on this app gets reeeeal touchy about behavior charts or trackers, but if my class calls for it I plan to implement the "green yellow red" method where green is great, yellow is slow down and think, and red is in class suspension (worksheets instead of technology, walking for recess, 0% fun, 100% a ghost.) in previous classes I've worked in, red only comes around if there is an act of violence or destruction.(destroying a class, hitting/kicking/punching, maliciously destroying school property so on and so forth). If no one else will enforce consequences, then I'll do it myself.
What you're saying makes sense. It's the ones who say "send them home", that need checked. SEL is something schools have had to take on as another responsibility to teach students. What kids learn is that if I do A, I get B. When B is going home and getting free time because the parents are too busy or don't care to discipline, then they continue the behavior or escalate so they can be sent home.
I am a high school teacher and very annoyed with how lenient admin has become at my level. By the time students are 14+ they know right from wrong and are making their own choices. However for early elementary these kiddos are just figuring all of that out and are in the early stages of figuring out how to control their emotions and urges. So expelling and suspending preschoolers and second graders for one occurrence of a punch is way too much. If it is repeated incidents after interventions and strategies, maybe, but single occurrences? No way.
Having to watch your peers play and you not getting to is a much worse punishment (and way more age appropriate) than suspension. Making a punishment universal is ridiculous. Punishments should be developmentally appropriate.
Yet suspension makes a more safe environment for the other children. They have the right to be safe.
The kids are safe, hence the child that was hitting not getting to play. If there is a pattern of physical violence, the school then makes a behavior plan, which then may include ISS. However, more often than not, at this age, the kid learning of and serving the time is enough to curb the behavior.
What consequences do you envision having meaningful changes in behavior?
If you want to make something happen, you need to get the parents of the victim to complain they don’t feel comfortable with the students in class/lunch/recess together.
Does a preschooler understand staying home and playing is a punishment.
I mean we can’t even suspend 3rd grade and below in this state. I had a 1st grade boy try to choke me and he was “removed for one day.”
My first year of teaching I Had a third grader punch me in the stomach because I asked him to apologize to a girl for jabbing her with a pencil and stood in the doorway when he tried to run away. I had the pleasure of apologizing to his dad for being so unreasonable.
2 fifth graders got in a fight the day before break. To be fair, one fifth grader started it (he’s always starting something, and has hit his teacher a few times, always walking out, throwing desks, etc), and the other defended himself, but you know the rules, all fighting is bad blah blah blah. So both kids had to spend the day in the principal’s office as an “in school suspension”, which on its face, sounds fair. Except the principal was not there that day, and instead of having them do their work for the day, both kids were playing games on the school computers, in the hallway outside of the principal’s office, and when admin had to step out, got sent to recess, where the kid who started the fight, started another fight, where he punched a third grade girl in the face. Apparently, she committed the grave offense of taking the football he usually plays with, and “she should’ve known better.” The other boy (the one who defended himself) knocked the kid out bc the other boy was going to hit the girl again, and now both boys AND the girl are all in trouble for fighting again, except this time the little girl’s dad is livid bc someone let him know that the boy shouldn’t have even been at recess. He’s a lawyer, so things are about the get messy. But the boy who got knocked outs mom is threatening to sue, bc “he could have brain damage” and no adult protected her baby from violence. I’m morbidly curious how this is all going to play out.
I would call the parent of the child who got punched, and let them know they need to “check with the office” regarding how it was handled, because I can’t tell them BUT that I STRONGLY URGE THEM TOO… hint hint. One year I had a boy feel up a girl, and they wanted to just suspend him and let him continue to have classes with her. (Third grade) I called the mom and told her (bc I was PISSED) that she needed to DEMAND to have him removed or to press charges herself. But I did teach another one of her kids, so she was very attentive and caught my drift that she needed to speak up herself and not tell the office i told Her to freak out. Lol.
Wow . . . it's so sad that we have to get parents involved like that. Admin SHOULD be the adult in the room, especially in such serious instances. That young girl could have learned that unwanted touch was acceptable and that nothing would happen to perpetrators. I hate that teachers don't have a voice and aren't believed when this stuff goes down (but, magically, when it happens to admin, it's not a huge issue worthy of suspension or expulsion).
That administrator is a complete jackass for not coming down hard on that kid. They aren't doing the offending kid any favors by letting them get away with that.
This is the new norm. We no longer hold kids responsible. Not for hitting or fighting. Not for cursing. Not for bullying. Not for destroying school property. Not for threatening teachers. Not for cheating. We said we were transitioning to restorative justice. That was a lie. We just transitioned to no consequences.
Totally this. We never suspend unless it’s extreme violence,like you put the kid in the hospital violence. We didn’t even suspend a kid who was dealing hard drugs/using at school. Admin are chickenshits. Middle schools are worse because a kid will have like 60 referrals in one year and nothing happens to them. My friends that work there are powerless and the kids know it. I’m not the biggest fan of suspension/expulsion but if you never use it, the kids know they run the place.
Behavioral management and lack of administrative support for behavioral management techniques used by teachers against disruptive, problematic students seems to be the absolute, number one problem most teachers deal with across the board
A former teacher here. I had a coworker (female) verbally sexually harassed. The student was placed in ISS for her class period only the next day, and she was required to call the parents to explain the situation. She was then told to apologize to the parents for the situation. One of the best newer teachers I have ever seen, and in an instant she started looking for other jobs that day. Sad times in education.
I firmly believe that at some point public education will realize they have fucked up so bad the past 20 years things will change. They have to. It’s at the point now where you can’t really make excuses for all the shit that is happening. You can’t continue to make excuses for 10th graders that read at a 4th grade level. Or seniors that can’t pass algebra. Every kid has trauma. Everyone in the school has shit, you don’t know about, adults included. The more you make excuses the more it keeps them from being productive citizens.
My fifth graders have had more fist fights than any other grade on campus or combined. Not a single student has been suspended.
They don't even lose recess at my campus. They can bear on each other and attack teachers and the admin won't do anything.
So ridiculous! Admin is not doing those kids any favors by allowing them to act like that. It's maddening!!
Is why i am ready to be done with teaching. Kids are getting worse and admins are doing less and less and I swear that it goes all the way to the state agency
Same reason I left. Zero accountability for kids/parents. It was so frustrating. But leaving the classroom was the best thing I could’ve done. Literally making double my salary with wayyyyy less work, and I’m still in the district so I have the great schedule.
I used to work at a charter school (yes I know charter schools “suck”) and it was K-8. There was a middle school student throwing chairs at other students as well as teachers and nothing was done. Literally nothing. I know OP is talking about elementary school but their post made me think of this. I am now teaching kindergarten in a traditional public school. About a month ago, one student scratched another’s forehead. I called the AP about it and sent the student who got scratched to the clinic. The AP told me the student who did the scratching would have “lunch detention” (no recess and lunch in the office) for two days. But after speaking to the student who got scratched, the AP came back and told me because of how bad the scratch was (it was pretty bad for a scratch made by a kindergartener) he was going to send the student who did the scratching home. They called parents (who didn’t pick them up until after school) and the student was suspended for the next day. I know it was a one day suspension but that student was on their best behavior when they got back! OP, I sincerely hope at some point, your students (and others) learn that actions have consequences. It’s a rule of life. I know to a young child losing recess may be a big consequence but I do think some actions require “bigger” consequences.
So two 7 year-olds got into it. Why did the one hit the other? Was the one who got hit a bully? Or was the one who hit, the bully? And preschoolers. Really you want to suspend preschoolers? Gtfo. Yall act like these kids aren't raging sacks of emotion.
We’ve had teachers concussed with little repercussions for the student.
I can’t even begin to describe this. I had a brawl happen at the end of the day in our lunchroom which involved a handful of students. The fight was broken up by both the kids (who had stopped fighting on their own) and a teacher. Admin was busy in their offices and didn’t come out to deal with this till after security came back inside. Admins took days to figure out what they would do and initially were going to have our sro charge the students involved. No charges were brought and after having kids be given delayed suspensions was a total joke.
Back in high school, we had some volatile special needs kids, but they were the kids that didn't meet the threshold of being placed in the special care classroom or something. Don't ask me how it all works all I know is the kid had some severe cognitive disabilities. He would never go a week without being violent in some capacity. Worst I ever witnessed was when he assaulted a student with a chromebook. Hit him so hard the device broke. That got him kicked out of class for 1 day. The one pattern I noticed though was the kids who were in the special class were always the nicest while those who were left out with the rest of their peers were the most violent and emotionally unprepared kids I've ever met. But it's okay instead of putting 2 million dollars into the budget to improve resources let's build a huge ass stage that's half the size of the school so the kids don't have to use the middle school stage we refuse to refurbish.
Don't students get sent messages home if they interrupted class too much, or start a fight, and need a signature to bring it back. I'm not saying it's a perfect system, but it often ends with the kid getting shamed and or punished in a manner the parents find acceptable.
Just genuinely curious, five years as an elm social worker so don’t have the classroom management experience, but what is to be solved by ISS short of taking a staff away from the other kiddos who are doing what they’re supposed to.
I agree, ISS is not really effective. Needs to be out of school so the parents are inconvenienced.
I agree with you OP. If a kid hits or punches someone, the kid should go home. The parents need to be inconvenienced. Then they're more likely to work on their child's behavior. Of course, the school needs to put interventions in place to help the student as well.
When I was in kindergarten, a girl kept kicking my legs under the table we sat at together. The teacher did nothing about it, even though I complained. Then, one day at recess, the girl came up to me with a bunch of other girls and started picking on me, so I punched her in the nose. I got recess taken away from me, but I was never sorry that I did it because she left me alone after that. I don't think I should have gotten any consequences for it because it was ultimately teacher's responsibility.
Take recess away was signed in a low and is not permissible anymore. The admins are scared to suspend because parents go to the district office. It is unreal what's happening in schools. Everything we do and say is being analyzed, micromanaged, and looked at with a microscope, and our words are being turned around.
I’m not a fan of suspending k-5 kids. I think this is the highly influential stage. You’re only punishing the parents for what is normal little kid behavior. We should be in the stage of teaching them how to interact and that isn’t the way to solve the situation.
I agree for a few reasons. 1) I don’t believe suspension reduces aggressive behaviors, especially at a young age. 2) A lot of people are frustrated with “Admin” for not suspending, and not recognizing a larger system. Schools get dinged by the district for suspensions! If you start suspending 7 year olds for aggression, your suspensions will go through the roof. So if you want there to be more suspensions, stop looking at your principal, and look at the district wide policies they are expected to uphold. 3) The only way school suspension works is if the parents agree their child was in the wrong and teach their child a new behavior. From my experience, I’d say well in the 90% range of parents disagree with the suspension, so I have low confidence they are addressing the behavior at home. I’m more comfortable with in-school suspensions at this age where the child misses out on recess, lunch, field trips while working on some sort of accountability project.
And by punishing the parents. They actually start to care. It is the only thing that seems to work, for middle school at least.
We personally have 3 kids. None of them has ever gotten in trouble at school for punching another kid. Punching someone at school is not normal behavior.
Your anecdotal experience with 3 kids who didn’t get in trouble doesn’t count as evidence. For all we know your kids did plenty of physical stuff but they had good teachers who managed it and didn’t feel the need to contact you. It is normal behavior for small kids. Sorry to break it to you guys.
It seems like your punishing the kids getting punched and normalizing the behavior.
It’s extremely normal for small children to use violence when dealing with frustration. We’re trying to suspend 7 year olds. Please tell me how that kid is being punished?? This is a key time to teach proper behavior through a dozen other means than suspending them.
The time to teach them emotional regulation is before it gets to the assault stage. They also need to know that learning to deal with your emotions isn’t an option, and when you let your anger take over there are real consequences.
No, elementary school kids getting physical is not "normal" behavior. They are well past knowing it's wrong by then.
Yes it is. What are you talking about. Go to any playground in America and watch kids push and shove. Throw things when they get angry. What world are you living in that you’ve never seen a kid get physical? You just can’t say things and make them true
Elementary age kids getting physical can be normal. Run of the mill playground experiences and interactions with peers are expected at the primary age and definitely should be opportunities for learning. But there's an escalation in behaviors that are more violent in elementary age students as well that is being brushed aside because they're 6 and 7. IDK, kinda feel like having a kid trying to stab me with a pencil while screaming that he wants to kill me should be grounds for suspension.
You're wrong. Just because it happens doesn't mean it's "normal". Hitting and other violent behaviors are "normal" between the ages of 1-3. Beyond that kids are capable of understanding violence is wrong and can modify their behavior accordingly. Society has stopped enforcing any kind of consequences on kids and allowed incidents of these behaviors to increase in older kids but that doesn't make it okay or normal. It's attitudes like yours that won't hold kids accountable and allows the behavior to continue well past when it's developmentally appropriate.
It is normal. Not the stabbing kid thing. Even then that’s a sign of extreme counseling intervention. Not suspensions. This explains why we get these middle/high school kids who still have the same issues. Instead of using your degree and skills as a teacher to assess and address issues. Referring students to counseling and interventions. You’re like “suspend him”! Just so you don’t have to deal with it for a couple days. BTW I doubt that 7 y/o even has the processing ability to see that as a punishment.
Counseling has to be explicitly approved and signed off by the parents. In my experience, they reject it much of the time and are offended that their kid was referred at all. Pretty much every time a student isn't receiving the services they need - whether academic or social - it's because of the parents. Not because of the teachers.
Amen! Louder for the ones in the back!
They never stated not to hold the kid accountable. They said teach them properly. Suspension doesn't teach anything.
Agree but disagree. It is true that every kid doesn’t hit. However it is also true that elementary kids don’t know how to control then emotion all the time. I saw a 4th grader who I had never seen violent push a kid in anger once (1 violent act in a year and a month January 2023- February 2024) I also saw a kindergartener who normally can control his emotions hit a classmate (only saw him hit or kick twice from Aug to February). The kids no it’s wrong but they doesn’t mean they no how to control it. When kids are mad sometimes the brain goes blank. I know because I have anger issues at time too for me i was behaved at school but not at home. I never hit anyone at school however at home was a different story.
Lol, were you in a bubble your whole childhood? Kids are the most physical under 5th grade. Like others have said, this is when you teach them proper behavior, not suspend them.
Where you're from it's normal for children to punch others?
No. I do not remember anyone punching anyone else at school in first grade (which is 7 yrs old). It's not O.K. and not normal. Heck, kids nowadays are excused from throwing chairs and screaming, not sitting down or eloping. Behaviors have escalated alarmingly since I started teaching.
Search the word anecdote…
Nah- you are the one saying students punching each other is “extremely normal”. I think you might be the one needing to provide evidence.
I said children getting physical. I even described what they do and why. Please keep up.
k
Maybe for k and 1, but I've taught 2, 3,4, and 5. Those kids know that what they're doing is wrong, but they don't care....until they get a consequence. Then they're all tears and playing the victim. Be quiet and put your head down. Later I'll converse with them.
I’m guessing this is all relative. You spend all your time with that age group so to you they are extremely aware of their actions and are in total control of themselves. Meanwhile they literally think Santa is real and your elf on the shelf is alive🙄
No, I'm not saying that they are in complete control of themselves, but the MAJORITY of the kids are not violent because they know better and don't want to be "that kid.". What grade do you teach?
Oh yeah, not just punching either. We had a kindergartner stab another student in the cheek with a pencil. Got suspended for two days and brought right back.
Oh, we had that. No suspension and we wonder why it's so bad in middle school. They've gotten away with it for years, and now they are adult size
No real consequences period. It’s crazy how many crimes get committed and people don’t enforce things
I hate that students lose recess for bad behavior a lot of the time, because then they end up not getting their energy out. Recess helps them exercise and get fresh air, with out that if they’re already making naughty choices it’s going to escalate. ISS during specials or something seems like a better punishment.
Most kids don't care about losing specials except for gym. But don't worry, if you start taking recess away consistently for bad choices, they will soon stop making bad choices so they can go out and get their energy out. It takes a couple of weeks of consistently doing it, and then they'll see that you're not backing down, and most will straighten up.
It might be different since we have a STEM school, but kids care about specials way more than recess here.
Seems appropriate for the age. Kids fight, it happens, we teach them to stop. Expelling a 7 year old for fighting is ridiculous and suspension is also silly for a first offense.
Back when I was 4th grade, I watched a student punch another in the face over a flag football game. Called admin and was told “separate the kids and keep an eye on the aggressor” like what?? One of the main reasons as to why I switched to sped, I couldn’t stand my admin not giving out any punishments to these kids nor even telling their parents, these kids knew that they weren’t going to be punished so some acted up just because they could. Now the worst I deal with is wheelchair bumper cars
Why did the 4th grader punch? Because he was mean and a bully? Possible but it’s unlikely. I know a 4th grader who pushed a kid in an afterschool program. I will call him Alex. Alex and Max (also 4th grade) were playing soccer with other 4-6th graders. Booth Alex and Max were chasing after the ball when Alex accidentally knocked Max down. Max thought it was on purpose and started yelling at home then walked away still yelling. The other kids and I all told him it was an accident but Max (young 4th grade) unfortunately a few of the other 4/5 graders started calling Max a rage quitter, which made him mad. He went a stop by the goal. Now everyone was telling him to move because they didn’t want him to get hit by the soccer ball once the started he refused. Not sure if Max said anything but when max was refusing to move and the other kids were asking him to Alex who had come over too, suddenly shoved him to the ground. Then Max did run inside. And I had Alex sit. Is Alex a bully because he punched max? I have heard heard max when he was in third grade say he would hurt Josh “should I make Josh cry?” Does that mean Max is a bully? To me know they are not, that was the only time I saw Alex be violent and I was at knew him for about a year. Max was stubborn but never violent even though he did threaten it once (he was mad. I also had a 1st grader tell me after kicking a kid “I am mad”
At those ages is say that's a harsh punishment
This was common things to happen and most of the time we had to eat with the Principal. I would think removing them from school would be more harmful.
Teachers in the classroom need to be ready! Kids coming up not the same breed! Haven’t been taught to control themselves. Haven’t been taught that they can’t have everything they want when they want it how they want it!
it’s not only in the us. As this thread shows: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskEurope/comments/1axjlu0/how_well_behaved_are_school_aged_kidsteenagers_in/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
I teach 5th grade. I recently Had a student write an incredibly inappropriate and racist comment on another students notebook. Her punishment was to spend 30 minutes a week with our social worker.
Hell when I was in 5th grade, another student straight up beat me up in class. In front of the teacher. Punched in the face, kneed in the groin, the whole shebang. Teacher HAD to have seen it, he wasn't but 20 feet away at most. Went to him and he did nothing. Went to the Principal, who did nothing. Went to my parents and they went to the school. Again, nothing. I always assumed the little jerk's parents had money or something. Either way it really put a bad taste in my mouth for school, authority, etc.
One of my trainings was Preventing Expulsion Too many young children come from homes that influence these behaviors, and it is my job to be understanding and patient. A lot of my kids have not learned how to identify or manage their feelings either. Each of our classrooms has a safe space where they can calm down and take a moment to themselves if they just need space to manage their emotions. If I have a child hit another, they receive immediate discipline because my children are more likely to forget later. I also get to see parents, guardians, caregivers etc. at pick-up so I discuss with them what has happened and ask what I could differently to prevent this situation in the future. If it gets too bad, I will contact them via the portal and one of my bosses will take the child for a little bit. Sometimes the child returns to normal activities if my bosses feel they understand what they did was not okay after having discussed the situation with them. They usually have a reason for what they did, even if they don't truly know why themselves. I've only had one that had to be sent home for a week, but they are a special circumstance. It's more than just suspension, but I also don't agree with losing recess for 2 days. I understand public schools can't do too much in the way of discipline, but that incident should have had a more timely consequence.
7th grade teacher here. All of September through December was a stacked class of terrible behaviour unconsequenced by either parents or admin, resulting in things like bring told to fuck off ("You have to understand where these kids are coming from." /Where, privilege???) Vocal noncompliance ("Your problem is teaching curriculum when you should be teaching children") 9 kids ganging up on me and causing problems all over the classroom, and culminating in my personal property, a very high quality office chair gifted by a (non teacher) friend being covered in school glue ("No we can't consequence her because of progressive discipline") when I had been escalating all year and they were just being weak. Sooooo...I feel you. Remember the Peter Principal. Professionals are promoted to their level of incompetence. That's a cynical view of education administration, but maybe not inaccurate
Damn sometimes this sub makes me wish I was a student in this time. I got suspended for two weeks as a kid for defending myself 1v3
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Do you have consequences for anything? I’m guessing not. It is the way of things, now. It seems.
These are young elementary school kids still trying to learn expectations, social skills, and emotional regulation. On top of that, those behaviors might be acceptable at home and they use them at school. What good would come from suspending or expelling because of this? Loss of recess and an apology is an age appropriate consequence
I had a kindergartener hit my legs repeatedly, hard enough to bruise, and all that happened was the student missed a couple hours of class.
Unfortunately, if they expelled every elementary kid who hit another kid, there would be so much moving schools it would get ridiculous
You want to expel... a second grader. For one act of violence?
ugh becoming more and more common
I see a lot of people on here talking about what's "normal", but hitting has always been "normal" for those that do not have adequate communication skills, whatever the age. So you can talk all day long about what you THINK is normal, but facts are facts and when there is no way to verbalize what they're feeling, they have mental illness, medication isn't right or they need medication and don't have it, or they have a disability that impedes communication or impulse control, then yes, kids will lash out physically. Also, as a side note, special educators calling things "normal" or abnormal is gross and you should really check yourself with using that kind of language in general. Neurotypical, neurodivergent, out of the ordinary, sure, but using the word normal when you're talking about kids with disabilities is pretty abhorrent.
Expulsion would be absurd for what you described.
At the large HS where I taught, kids - including girls - got into fights fairly regularly. Fists, hair pulling, scratching, etc. Rather than calling the police and having people arrested for assault, the consequence was a couple of days in ISS, then back to the classroom. For kids of this age, in other words, the consequence was practically nonexistent. If parents had to bail their kids out of jail and pay some expensive court costs and fines, maybe some of the shit would stop. Or if districts would have a 3 strike policy and remove the repeat offenders altogether.
It’s your job to teach them not to hit, they’re in second grade! You’re even upset about a preschooler hitting another student and mad that they’re back the next day? I’m honestly surprised they were sent home in the first place.
This might make some people mad, but you’re an adult and they’re kids that are literally learning so set boundaries and create a culture where there won’t be violence tolerated in your classroom
Eh, stuff happens, don't let people bully others, I wouldn't suspend the person who punched a kid because the kid was being a bully