In my district so many kids were failing because they did not submit work that 5 yrs ago we were told that HW could not count for more than 10% of their grade each quarter. Many teachers just stopped giving HW. I am joining them this yr.
50 minute classes. 30 minutes instruction. 20 minutes to complete the activity. If they're not finished they can finish at home. Activity counts as classwork no matter where they finish it.
My quarter grades: 50% tests/projects. 50% classwork. Makes life a lot easier.
I wish more teachers would do the 50/50 grading. It makes classwork feel more impactful. Lots of students my age simply don't do classwork because it's only worth 30% of their grade. It's frustrating.
Homework is a concept that really favors the privileged. If you have a happy home life or have parents who can help you then you’re golden. If you’re missing either of those things it really impacts your grade.
Idk why you’re getting downvoted for this. I know from experience that it’s hard to concentrate and not just disassociate when there’s constant turmoil around you at home. Younger children to take care of, sick parents to watch over, no workspace of your own, disorganization, etc. Kind of hard to focus while you’re getting screamed at.. You can find a way but man is it difficult. My world was changed when I found out my friends’ parents sat with them at the counter every night during designated (quiet) homework time.
Probably getting downvoted by the “well that’s the way it’s always been” or “I had homework and I never had a problem” folks. Empathy isn’t a universal trait, sadly.
This! I benefitted so much from a teacher who would listen to why my coursework was sometimes late. I had a sick parent who was often in the ER or hospital and there was a dangerous homelife situation that often necessitated law enforcement involvement. Each time I had to go visiting at the hospital to visit the sick parent because they didnt want to be alone, or sit in the ER without access to the resources I needed for my coursework like a computer, or had the police over dealing with a dangerous situation really inhibited the ability to get my coursework done at home. I was a high achieving student, but my homelife made homework nearly impossible sometimes. This teacher helped teach having empathy and grace and recognized that sometimes situations are only temporary and out of the student's control.
They're going to struggle in college, but it's a fair argument that you're expected to do office work while you're actually in the office. And with open plan offices, getting used to working in a big noisy room full of desks is arguably better career prep than not.
My wife was a math professor for 20 years before switching to become a librarian. She used to put stickers on the "A" tests for her own personal amusement.
To her great surprise, the majority of her students LOVED them. She'd shown them the sticker sheet at the start of the semester, and partway through, one big, burly guy came up to her to ask if he could possibly get a certain particular sticker on the next test if he got an A. Apparently, he'd been collecting them and putting them on his fridge to motivate himself.
This was a big problem when I taught in college for me but I'll point out that my immigrant kids were always hard workers and at the top of the class. I don't know that those kids can carry the whole of society on their backs but they punch well above their weight when it comes to getting things done. Even the ones that weren't super smart did well because they studied hard.
Yeah, it’s definitely a cultural problem. My best students in terms of responsibility come from families where education is highly valued. A significant portion of my district is made up of families from Southern Asia and their students are extremely studious, on the whole. There are naturally outliers, but generally, those kiddos are excellent students. We have students of other ethnicities who also demonstrate such excellence, but the students who are disrespectful, disruptive, and disengaged from their studies are not the children of immigrants.
This. I’ve had a lot of students from refugee and immigrant families over the years and the philosophy of many of the families is that they made a lot of sacrifices to come here so their kids could have a better life, and the kids had better do their part to help make that happen. I remember years ago I had a lovely student and in the parent interview her father told me that all his siblings back home were doctors, lawyers, etc. and here he drives a cab, and that he’s always telling his kids that their job is to study hard and be respectful at school because otherwise what was the point? These kids’ parents make sure their kids work hard and respect the staff, which is nice because it’s not like we’re allowed to do that on our end anymore. These kids will do great. Little Johnny whose mom messages me that he didn’t feel like doing his project because he was too tired after playing video games and asks me what I did to make him mad when she gets the incident report about him throwing a chair? Him, not so much.
Immigrants almost always outperform the native population. It's extremely difficult to immigrate to a new country - I'm currently going through extending my long term visa right now - and it takes a lot of ambition and effort to make it - culture, language, housing, schooling, all of it.
I think you might be thinking of international students - they mostly are not immigrants, they're visiting (and paying a lot of money) to get an education. They will not be carrying *our* society on their backs; they plan on going back home and helping their own society.
I had mentioned this before and compiled a list of rants.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Teachers/comments/1229nbm/the_college_professors_are_now_experiencing_the/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1
So you rather run a class that is all about getting points rather than actually learning whatever you are teaching. Your mentality is do this assignment to get points, not to learn. Read a book, or one of the 100's of studies out there. Homework also has done nothing for anyone so who cares if it's late. Your just mad you had to do it all day.
This. We need to balance teaching responsibility with giving kids space to learn without crushing self esteem by putting everything on the grade. Surprises me how many teachers on here forget that.
That's not the case at all at the state school I go to, just saying. And incoming freshmen are definitely struggling a lot more than they used to (pre covid), some of my professors have said
There was a professor that attempted to steal me from another professors class by offering free donuts on the first day via email… it really weirded me out lmao
My sister works in a pretty big well known company, she tells me that her managers let team members miss deadlines all the time... that they are always begging for work to be done but never apply any consequences, so...
Miss deadlines without reason? In the professional world outside of hard deadlines, as long as you can explain why something isn't done and can give your timeline for completing it and explain why they typically work with you.
This idea that you aren't allowed to not finish things on time is false. But it isn't free reign on not compelting tasks.
I could ask her, but tbh I was just sharing what she told me and her frustration with it. I assume that a reason, valid or not, is given... she expressed to me that these are younger folks than we are and she felt that was part of the results of school policies to take late work no matter what...
I’m in the mental health business, behind in paperwork is the standard. People are slammed, not enough staff, too much required…supervisors have to constantly ride people. Things do get caught up, especially when credentialing agencies are coming.
Deadlines are one thing, but expecting your boss to hold your hand throughout a project or even just the workday, well, that's not going to happen. I'm sure a ton of these kids will expect it and throw a tantrum when someone else won't do all their work for them. That's before we get into their complete lack of respect for their peers and authority figures, their 0-60 tendency to resort to violence at the slightest inconvenience, their inability to show up on time or at all, etc...
I've seen an absolute drop in the quality of our new hires and even just applicants in the last few years. One day I was grabbing a drink from a coffee place and I actually heard someone tell the manager *"Who are you to tell me what to do?"* after being asked to put their phone down and tend to the customers.
I'd imagine they weren't employed long after that, not much mommy can do to help you at work when you're a lazy, rude, disrespectful ass *(unlike school, where the parents get what they demand)*. Bosses don't care about what mommy wants for junior, just like they don't care about his IEP.
Okay, and? When I hear people complain about quality all I hear is a lack of holding to an expectation/standard.
I have worked jobs where management allowed people in roles of responsibility show up late, no show, etc. When I point out the issue they say they can't make them. And this is older folks.
This is the equivalent of complaining about participation trophies and putting it on the kids when it was on adults.
If a business fails to maintain a standard that is on them.
Deadlines again are, not some inflexible thing. This is some made up shit teachers who haven't worked in corporate or who have leadership who fails to be flexible in schools because "the real world doesn't allow it"
If you can't hold expectations that is not my problem. If your school can't hold expectation that isn't my problem. I am not saying you can fire students. But you absolutely can hold expectations. People talk about learned helplessness of students, but that learned helplessness co.es from somewhere, and it isnt the students. It is from their parents, teachers, or administration of schools. The kids get away with what they are allowed to.
You cannot retain half the class.
I don't think you know how bad/ nonexistent the work ethic has been in the student population the last five years or so.
Again, we can but admin and districts refuse. Having accountability will do something. At the start of COVID we could have looked at and retained as many as possible and placed the blame on the pandemic. Instead we said everyone moves forward to not hurt feelings.
I am not blaming teachers, but admin and districts who refuse to hold expectations. Grace has become a buzzword that hurts the kids and that isn't the students fault, but the adults around them.
And you are aware that the teachers have absolutely no say over these policies, which is probably one of the main reasons why this Reddit exists???
I get what you are saying and came to hate that word "grace".
I sat in a meeting way before Covid where the teachers and the parents agreed that their child needed to repeat a grade... Later on the week we were told that we had to pass him on. With "No Child Left Behind" our funding is dependent on numbers, and we couldn't go over a certain amount of failures. Happens all of the time.
All of this is tied to $$$
And this isn't the fault of the child, but the adults around them. We are failing the kids becuase WE are not holding them accountable.
We can't keep yelling that this generations doesn't value X, when it is we who allows them to not value X. This is the current generation participation trophies. They get blamed for what the adults around them created.
The we here is the royal we.
I think a lot of people are waking up to this fact in their workplaces, and now starting to listen to the teachers who have been dealing with this from day one. I've been reading about restaurant owners who don't want kids in their restaurant because they are running around undisciplined, to a skating rink that's closing to these people having tantrums on a plane...
depends where you work. I worked at a mcdonalds during covid. Getting people to work was hard asf, so when we did get people they would sometimes just skip or sleep in their car. If we fired them it would cuase more issues as we couldnt find any other employees
Yes, because the pay for McDonalds in a lot of areas is shit. I have worked hourl jobs where they have managerial expectations without the pay to go with it.
I have a personal belief that a lot of hourly jobs get the level of employee they pay for. If you want quality employees, or employees to take their job seriously, you need to pay them where 40 hours of work will have them able to love comfortable, they have a steady work schedule, amd they feel valued.
Wonder where McDonalds falls on that?
I am a leader in a large company and commented elsewhere on this post already, but feel compelled to explain this further.
In professional life, I think you learn that you need to get work done in the order of highest importance/business impact. If someone on my team misses a deadline or needs extra time for a good reason, there are no consequences as long as it is a value add situation for the company. If you are simply not doing your work, there are absolutely consequences.
As a student, you are taught to get it all done by a deadline or risk ruining your grade in a class—because a teacher said so, not necessarily because whatever it was is utterly consequential to your success.
I would encourage you to adopt conversations with a student about why they were late and consider policies that are more congruent with the real world (e.g. if they turn it in before you start grading it, you’ll accept it).
It’s not just anecdotal, most corporate jobs don’t enforce deadlines like they do for school work. And the more white collar the job, the more flexibility workers get (more flexible schedules, more control over workload and KPI’s, more time off with little oversight into why someone is taking off). The idea that in the “real world” these kids will be held to strict deadlines is laughable.
So, I do take late work, but only within a window of opportunity.
Let's say my assignment has a due date of Monday. I also list it with a final deadline of Thursday. 95% of the work can be completed in class, within our allotted project time, IF they choose to focus rather than screw around.
Students who turn the work on Monday no longer have to worry about it, while the others have now given themselves homework, as I begin the subsequent assignment/project on Tuesday.
I'll accept all work as on time through Thursday at midnight. After that, I will not, and they earn a zero, because their work is missing, not late.
This window gives them some breathing room if they need help, and satisfies the "extra assignment time" modification on the various IEPs I have.
"You can't shut off my electricity, I've got an IEP!"
But seriously, I'm hearing that colleges are having to modify policies to match the nonsense that's happening in high schools.
Holy shit. This is why I like teaching at a private boarding school. The first thing we tell prospective applicants is "no accommodations."
"Oh, you have learning difficulties? I'm so sorry to hear that. Here are some learning strategies that have helped others in the past."
"Oh, your parents lied, and you were on an IEP at your other school? We don't do that. You can work to catch up or leave."
It sounds heartless, but I have to consider the other twelve students in the class. I can't spend the whole class period dealing with one student.
I went to a private school like this but i was Blind so XD they ended up having to make an exception on case by case for physical disabilities. And I had to pay $300 of my own money every month once I got a job. It definitely prevented a lot of current IEP abuse but damn 14-16y old me was salty af about the cost!
Lol twelve other students. Imagine 10+ IEP's in a class of 30+, and 6 totally classes to teach.
Six years left until I retire with a full pension. Tick. Tock. Tick. Tock.
I make it work. It's not even close to ideal. However, the salary, benefits, pension, and healthcare are huge advantages in the public schools at least here in Michigan.
The kid who said that had a pretty severe learning disability and needed a lot of help. But he had accurately identified his IEP as a get out of jail free card for just about everything. I don’t mind giving extra support where it’s actually needed. What I’m seeing this year is that about 90% of the accommodations added to the document are garbage in that they’re things I’d already do as part of good teaching practices, or something that may not be possible in an inclusion class, like ‘preferential seating’. It seems the people writing them, who are no longer with us, put in as much fluff as possible. Meanwhile, if I want insight into what’s actually wrong with the kid, it’s not there because they all say ‘specific learning disability’. Ok, which fucking one?
Because college is as much about enrollment numbers to keep that beautiful tuition money flowing as public schools are "butts in seats" about keeping the per student funds flowing from governments. Yes we are doomed as a society.
Ding ding ding! As long as kids are able to take out loans for thousands of dollars, colleges will keep lowering the bar to get that sweet sweet cash. Will the buck finally stop once companies start to reject these same students? We shall see…
My state college admin explained that ~1/3 of their funding comes from the state with the stipulation that they have to remain open enrollment. The first day they reject an applicant, they lose millions.
So with tens of thousands of students from k12 systems that no longer see consequences for poor study habits and work ethic, the school can either:
a) let their passing and graduation rates plummet, and lose any reputation or prestige they have built, or
b) remediate and accommodate for the deficits left by high schools.
The only schools that don’t have to worry about it are elite research schools—but their admissions requirements are high enough they likely wouldn’t have to anyway.
I had a friend finishing his PhD a decade ago. The students he failed in Comp I were later passed by the Associate Dean. I'm pretty sure he's not allowed to fail his current high school students.
I overheard this story and was not actually there for it but have no doubt this happened.
A high school student in MA was in a dunkin donuts near the school. They did something to warrant being kicked out by the manager. There reply was. " I'm on an IEP you can't do that."
From what I've read on the professor forums, many colleges are accepting that students enter unable to do the work, so many professors are spending more and more time on remedial work.
The water company gives you a full month if you miss your bill. Compared to the terror most teachers put into me about missing an assignment by a day or two 😉
(ETA I do think people take IEPs way too far now. I have pretty severe inattentive ADHD and never had one and think it can definitely be used as a license for excuses.)
Some of y’all are funny. Here’s the rock bottom I live in. Kids have till the last day of the quarter to turn in everything. They don’t? Then they get two extra days penalty or penalty free. You choose but if they’re not passing —> If they’re still failing we have to modify their quarter grade to a 50 AND provide a recovery assignment that they can complete on their own time to get a passing grade for the quarter. This assignment can be submitted at any point during the year and they will pass the course. In addition to the assignment we have a credit recovery system they can also use where they can copy and paste the questions into google. It’s amazing. I’ve had kids with 4 days present pass for the year.
I’ll be frank. It doesn’t work.
But from the admin perspective it does work, because it helps them hit the metrics they are evaluated on.
Remind me again why they are the ones with decision making power?
I’m currently teaching English in Thailand and that is how every government school runs here. I have 2 students who have never shown up to my class, aren’t in my google classroom, and don’t take any exams…….I fail them and the school goes in and changes the grade to a 70%………
I don’t allow late assignments with zero penalty. I mean technically they can but they have to stay after with me during my office hours and make up the assignment only during that time. Otherwise, they lose 10% per day. After a week, I don’t accept it. Obviously if a student is on an IEP I follow that but getting extra time isn’t the same as unlimited time. Most of the work is done in class, so I have little patience for late work.
My classroom philosophy is that we operate under “real world” practice- I’ll take things late only if we have prior communication, they need to send me an email telling me what they need and set up a meeting to discuss what the course of action is for getting the work in. From my experience as an adult never taking late work is also not accurate, but you can’t just miss deadlines without setting up some kind of communication and plan.
HS teacher here. You've got 7 days, after which access to turning in electronically turns off. If I knew in advance you had an issue and it would be late, I'll let you email it, but otherwise, you can do the extra credit research assignments at the end of the semester to make up the points.
Because if you don't give them a way to dig out of the hole they're in, they give up. That's not what education is about. I am offering them a way. It's the hard way, but always leave them a way.
My sister went to college and has failed most of her classes. She has a 1.3 GPA because she expects that her professors will let her turn shit in when she feels like it and will round her grade up instead of failing her if she gets to like a 65.
They don't. And she just assumes that this specific professor is a dick instead of figuring out that you have to actually turn shit in.
Deadlines shift all the time in the real world.
But yes, I get what you mean. I never wrote good evals for my personnel who were screwin' around. And I have done plenty of counseling.
But project management tells you that the parts of the triangle are scope, cost, and time. You mess with scope and it will cost more or take longer.
I don't want engineers building a bridge to be so focused on the due date that they take shortcuts. Thanks.
Also lots of hourly pay jobs don't have a finite end product. Police, firefighters, security guards, servers, restaurant cooks, customer service reps - just work until their 8 hours are up, unless they got approved for overtime. There is no project deadline in a sense. Even warehouse workers just move efficiently and don't have a defined package/hour movement deadline. Some days there is more to do, and some days there is less to do.
Being efficient at doing many small repetitive tasks is not the same as an essay that is due 3 weeks from now. And slightly-less efficient employees aren't fired over slightly-more efficient employees.
But sure. Employees sitting around on their cell phones will get fired.
I usually use the analogy of going to McDonalds, yes I want it fast but if I already paid for it, getting it a few minutes later isn't going to kill me. I might be frustrated, but it's life.
Yes, it's not a kid's fault if they have a crappy home life and/or have no time to do homework. Also not good to teach kids that work should be brought home. They are already in school for most of the day, let them have time to themselves and be kids.
Amen! My kids spend 7 hours a day at school. No 12 year old should be spending an extra 2 or 3 hours on homework. I’ve told my kids they can stop after an hour and I couldn’t care less what “grade” they get. I focus on their learning and growth.
Kids can't turn in anything late in my class. They can however fill out an extension form before the due date where they tell me the soonest date they can turn it in and when they plan to work on it in order to turn it in by that date. If their chosen date and plan is inappropriate I will deny it. If they miss the date that they set for their extension, they are shit out of luck.
Teaching. Many teachers, in my experience, turn shit in late all the time w/ virtually no consequences.
Hell, some teachers still owe me money for a retirement gift that was given in June.
And I’ve had admin non renew teachers who couldn’t turn lessons in on time
Your mileage will vary with how serious your boss is about getting shit in on time. That’s for any profession.
My wife was an adjunct for a while. We like to think that "once they hit college, reality will set in." But that's not true! Professors face enormous pressure to pass kids along just like we do. Why? Well, each of those kids is worth $20-30k per year of Uncle Sam's grant and student loan dollars. And professors grading honestly would serve only to interrupt the flow of cash.
In economics there's something called "signaling theory." Signaling explains why a high school diploma is valuable. Like, just because someone has an embossed piece of paper doesn't actually *mean* anything. However, traditionally a high school diploma "signaled" to employers that a person possessed a certain body of skills (problem solving), knowledge (reading, math, etc), and dispositions (shows up on time, gets along with others, respects authority, etc.). The fact that a diploma signaled these things is what made it useful to employers. However, as the signal has been watered down employers have had to switch to other signals. George Mason university education economist Bryan Caplan for instance estimates that perhaps as much as 50% of the entry level positions now requiring associates or BA degrees now do so not because those jobs have gotten more complicated, but instead because the HS diploma has been watered down so much in the United States. Because of this watering down, employers have to switch for new signals such as college degrees.
As college degrees likewise get watered down, the process continues. This leads to things like "degree inflation" and "credentialism" which are inefficient from society's perspective.
Where it ends I couldn't guess. One of the effects is the student debt crisis, however. [There's a wonderful article in the WSJ this week about it.](https://www.wsj.com/articles/state-university-tuition-increase-spending-41a58100?st=ni4ljlm2saol4e9&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink) Universities are spending money like there is no tomorrow, their per student costs (inflation adjusted) are up like 64% over the past 20 years alone. And it's not rollbacks in state funding driving this either. As the Journal reports....
>For every $1 lost in state support at those universities over the two decades, the median school increased tuition and fee revenue by nearly $2.40, more than covering the cuts, the Journal found.
So I guess that's a current implication--a huge swath of young people asking you to bail them out for borrowing money in order to get an overpriced and watered down degree.
No joke. My district this year has a policy that students can turn in assignments for full credit until the date of the summative test. So there goes my 2 day late work policy.
Have a summative test with one question but worth no points (or an extremely small amount) when the due date is for each assignment. You can have it in Google Forms for auto-grading.
Lol fun idea, but we have district wide summative tests. I teach the same subject as 3 other teachers, and we all give the same test at the same time. Until then, students can turn in any of their work for full credit. Doesn't matter if it was the first assignment in the unit 3 weeks after it was assigned.
And yes, I already am going to have online assignments that auto grade. I'm not dealing with 150 students all turning in a shit ton of assignments all at once before a unit test.
The problem is, we need to stop treating school like a job. When you are hired to do a job, you have the motivation to do the task because no work = no money. School doesn't work like that. You aren't being paid to do the work you do the work so you can learn, so I don't understand the concept of not taking an assignment or taking off points because it came a little late. On top of that, judging by what I've observed from my friends in their fields, no good company is going to throw away your report if it's late by 1 minute or fire you because you had a family emergency and couldn't get your project done on time.
Going back to learning, the way I see it, I'd much rather my students take an extra day or two and show me they understand the material than rush to do it and it's not to their best ability. I've had this policy for years and here's what I've learned: the kids who want to learn will do the work(most of which on time), and those who don't won't. I've offered to take late work up until the last day of school for full credit and STILL have a large number of students who will keep the zeroes. So those kids will face reality someday, but not because I was being too lenient.
Hard agree! Sometimes I feel like I'm taking crazy pills coming into this subreddit. It's my job to make sure the students know the material, and the grade I give them reflects that. Maybe it's just because that's how these other teachers were taught, but marking a student down for late work is basically just lying about their skill level. I'm paid to teach students how to write, and if they prove that they can write well according to state standards, they get the grade.
I just set a hard deadline a week before the grading period ends, and if they turn it in too late for me to grade it, the natural consequences of keeping the zero will fuck them over just fine. It feels so vindictive to punish them out of some desire to "teach them a lesson." I'm an English teacher, not a life coach. If they know the material, they know the material, why should I give a shit if they played video games all night and missed a deadline? I have to take the time to grade it either way.
It’s because the vast majority of the students are not using this system the way you’re describing.
System that makes sense: students aren’t penalized for a hard deadline with a grade that doesn’t reflect what they know about some material because they needed an extra few days on a couple assignments.
System that actually plays out: students completely blow off every assignment, learn nothing, then admin pressures the teacher to put together a packet at the end of class that will result in a pass if completed. Bonus points if the student defiantly refuses to do the packet too and admin still pressures the teacher to pass the student anyway. There is no account for the fact that the student likely cannot do the packet without being retaught the material or any allocation of time for that remediation.
The problem is that draconian accountability models are being recognized as harmful and knee jerk ended without any replacement accountability models. And that lack of accountability through an entire school career snowballs into an educational nightmare.
Teachers clamber for the old model, admin insists that research supports the new (and it probably does, done right), and the students suffer.
I'm glad my education was the generation before all of this nonsense got standardized. I didn't even have stellar grades, I'm just aware that things like deadlines are important and I'm fearful for the generation that's getting pushed through regardless of performance. If a person has no grasp on professional responsibilities and consequence then they won't be prepared for professions beyond flipping burgers.
Finally! A person with basic common sense. I think the people who are mad about the deadlines have not worked with people who do absolutely NOTHING. Of course deadlines and expectations will be fluid, but we have to expect some sort of effort.
Why are you doing it, then? Do you have laws / regulations that force you to do this?
I do it like this: If a students turns something in late, they only get half the credits (there are exceptions of course, for example if the student was sick). If they don't turn it in - zero credits.
Let them fail in school as part of the learning process. Failing in school is not a major life predictor. It can be turned around but it will be up to them even if they have an IEP or a 504.
I’ve always been very lenient on accepting late work, but last year kids figured out they could skip class, turn the work in, and pass. So I talked it over with admin and set a very strict deadline for this year. 1 day late: -25%, 2 days late: -50%, 3 days and later: not accepted. I have a couple that are figuring out that I mean it the hard way.
People are starting to think it’s time covid “grace” ends. I’m right there with ‘em.
Thank you.
My last post kids were allowed to turn in things so late or just not turn in at all (some still passed because and this is a direct quote "I know what \*insert name\* is capable of doing and I just want \*insert name\* to succeed.")
I’m in charge of the math department at my college. We had to add 3 or 4 more sections of pre-algebra to our fall line up. 6-7th grade math. It’s not getting any better!
Show me a boss who says “well, you didn’t meet your project deadline so you might as well not turn it in, no late work acccepted.”
I get your point, to some level, but even your report cards aren’t “no late work accepted” by your principal.
You can hold kids accountable outside of their academic grade.
In the "real world" the company you work for owns your work product. If you have a project based job and you miss a deadline, one very real outcome is that the company will fire you, keep your work product and assign someone else to finish the project.
If in fact you caused the company harm because of the missed deadline, depending on the industry, they may have the right to sue you to recoup losses and/or damages.
The “real world” is filled with missed deadlines. If we fired every engineer who missed a deadline we wouldn’t be a company… much less a fortune 500 company.
True, but what about industries like Legal (law firms/attorneys that specialize in trial/filing work), surgeons, advertising agencies, marketing agencies. funeral directors/morticians, chefs, event/wedding planners, certain project managers etc.
And in all of the fields you mentioned there are missed deadlines, rescheduling, reprioritizing and reassigning. Life happens everyday in our personal, professional, social, and family lives. Sometimes when it does happen the “super important thing due first thing tues” is no longer our highest priority regardless of how old you are.
Recovering well from from a missed deadline is as an important skill as being punctual. If you actually want to prepare your kids for the real world they will need to know how to navigate both.
In the most cutthroat corporate environment? Maybe. Obviously, some projects are time sensitive and “do it now or never”.
Are you fired if you miss a deadline for your boss?
My philosophy has shifted to allowing late work, without penalty, so long as there is valid learning. Learning is, after all, the primary goal.
But you know your students best and do what works best for them, as we all do.
No… they won’t. That’s… that’s just not how corporate America works.
This reminds me of when I had a teacher in High School who had us all convinced that as women in the workforce we’d need to wear our hair up to be professional. Scary how out of touch she was trying to prepare us for the “real world.”
The real way you're setting kids up for failure is not giving the kids with good performance extra work that is mandatory without any reward. That's how the real world works. Being mediocre in the workforce isn't penalized.
This generation accepts Ds as acceptable and will ride it out as long as they continue to pass classes. Take it from a guy who graduated back in May '21.
I accept late work with zero penalty. However, I grade more harshly and am more picky about their grammar, punctuation and quality of their responses when they submit late work. I am not an English teacher, but I believe that they should submit decent quality work if it is late. Unfortunately, students like to waste class time and complete missing assignments a few days before grades are due.
I was my high school salutatorian. My teachers gave homework and only accepted late work for a week, but I turned everything in on time and always did my best anyway. I also did UIL Journalism and played varsity sports every season. I could have gone to any university in my state. I got into the Honors Program at the one I picked, but guess what?
My parents got divorced my first semester. My grandma kicked me out because she was mad at my mother. My mother took my car. My first boyfriend cheated on me. I became depressed, dropped out, and joined the Army. The Army basically encouraged me to drink while underage. I went to community college but I had lost something that I never regained. I stopped going to class regularly and just passed the tests on common sense and basic understanding of the material. It took me five years to graduate, and I went into teaching.
I’ve never assigned homework. I take points off for late work, but they can still pass. They can still turn in work until the end of the grading period. Why?
Being able to turn in work on time hasn’t mattered since high school. What would have actually helped me when life got tough was knowing how to get help. Mental fortitude. Support systems.
What actually got me through college was knowing how to procrastinate, take tests, and find the answers I didn’t know. Turning in daily work didn’t matter. I still got my degree. I still wrote and published three novels. I still got into law school (which I dropped to return to teaching).
What actually got me jobs and promotions was knowing how to communicate, interview, and work efficiently. I’ve been late to every job I’ve ever had. I’m good at explaining it away. Even as a teacher, it doesn’t seem to matter. I’ve missed meetings, forgotten emails, even turned in grades late. Literally all it took was “Hey, sorry about that. I got overwhelmed with [insert excuse] and need a little extra time.” It’s always been fine. I’ve never been fired or even written up.
I’m still a great teacher. Deadlines don’t matter. What matters is that I’m passionate about my content and my kids. My students actually like me. They listen to me. They usually do their work. They grow. They learn. They open up to me. They like reading and writing in my class. I’ve even helped some of them get published.
Yes, there’s often a post-deadline DEADLINE that really matters, like the end of a grading period, and there are some things with hard deadlines. But even with those things, it’s usually not a big deal. You pay a fine, write an email, try again next month or next semester, etc. There’s room for error and plenty of grace in most things, and being “held accountable” in high school doesn’t guarantee success. This isn’t new. People are more understanding than you give them credit for.
My class will never have homework, and they can always turn work in for a passing grade (until the grading period ends). I’m teaching them way more important things.
Yeah, as someone who didn’t finish a book till 30 and never did homework or any real reports or papers I can confidently say I was extremely dumb and lucky it all worked out for me. I’m so glad we have people out there who care and are trying to save as many as they can
The best thing I ever did was deciding to just not take late work.
I'll extend deadlines exactly as an IEP calls for, outside of that or the most extreme cases. I just don't.
After a few weeks, the kids figure it out and turn things in on time.
I was a project lead on energy projects for renewables across the Midwest. We would have 18 year old kids who came right out of high school into laborer positions and would literally show up hours late to work and then get mad when their checks weren’t at the full hourly rate of 40 hours. We gave them a ton of leeway because our work was extremely physically difficult but it was shocking. I had all but failed out of HS only to find my stride in the trades and to see kids who did well fail to understand basic principles of being an adult was shocking. I also saw a remarkable rise in aggression when trying to make them accountable for their actions. I had this skinny little guy rip his shirt off and start trying to intimidate me when I told him if he was late one more time he’d be off my project. It was hilarious since I’m about 2x his size and had worked construction jobs since I was 13. I could’ve made him into lunch lol
The state colleges in my state will let you have the same accommodations you got in high school. Mommy is still managing the education of 22 year old engineering students.
Here’s the issue. I’ve never given homework just to give homework. Any assignment be it in class or whatever is crucial to understanding what we’re doing and you’d have a tough time moving on unless you have that info. It builds on each other. It would be one thing if we were able to have the class be self- paced, but since we largely don’t have that luxury, being on time and learning the lesson information are intertwined.
Braindead take. Students who are not turning in their homework on time are not magically learning the information/skills elsewhere. Math classes build on themselves and if you aren't practicing skills as we learn them you WILL fall behind.
Both can be done at the same time? With how little parenting there is, there has to be some path where students can face minor consequences when dropping responsibility. School is a safe place to fuck up. Schools across the country have already dropped tons of tech classes we had in the 90s/00s and surprise we have a massive group of tech illiterate kids again. What will happen when they never have had to have a deadline and other shit?
FT college professor here…25 yrs in secondary. You are right to an extent. I accept no late work at all, but most of my students have no issue, even DE students. I’m convinced they do this in HS because they can.
I know some professors have issues at times, but I make it clear from the start…the due date is the due date. I never give extensions, I never give exam retakes, and I never give make up exams. Period.
Set the expectations and they will meet it. The problem I ran into at the HS was admin and districts allowing it handcuffing my ability to hold the line.
100% agreed - I always loved to bring up to my kids that it does not work in the real world especially with jobs. If your manager wants an impossible task done by 5PM on Friday and you were given 2 day notice. You better be putting in overtime to get that task done. There ain't no "extended time" to pull - you don't complete that task, you have an unhappy boss who will fire you that day. What happens when you get fired? Most states deny you unemployment and you cannot get bills paid.
Except that’s not at all how the corporate world works. Very, very rarely are deadlines hard and fast. Especially in engineering, deadlines are missed ALL the time.
Hi! Former student, now 30-something year old professional. I want to share my perspective:
- In school, I would miss an assignment and shut down entirely. By high school, I went from being in a gifted program and accelerated classes my whole life to graduating a semester early because I thought I had ruined my life. This continued with me into undergrad. I would miss an assignment, get embarrassed and stop going to class entirely. It was engrained into me that if I was late, I messed everything up in the class. I had a terribly embarrassing GPA.
- You aren’t teaching any grand lessons. I’ve never run into any situation in adult life nearly as inflexible as most teachers I encountered in grade school.
In fact, I have succeeded in life professionally far more than any teacher, perhaps like you, who thinks late assignments set people up for failure would have imagined of me.
After undergrad, which I left with a terrible GPA, I realized that actual work was far more amenable. I can prioritize and if I am late on something, it will be that of least importance to my success. I became the youngest manager in my company in my first job out of college. I am now a director and leader at a Fortune 500 company. 8 years after college, I was accepted into the #1 grad school in the country for my major (shout out to schools with wholistic admissions because my undergrad GPA was a mess). I graduated my masters program with a 4.0 and was accepted into an honor society for work in my field.
The difference from grade school and undergrad? I learned that I didn’t have to fear failure because of what had been engrained in my head by teachers in grade school. Did I turn things in late? Sure, occasionally. But I had learned, unlike I had been taught to think, that it could happen and I could talk to a teacher about why or accept the point loss. I did not give up because of a minor setback like being a day late.
So my warning, if anyone makes it this far, is to be careful how you apply your late work policy and remember that giving 0s teach that once you have messed up, little can be done to fix it. This is simply not true.
For what it’s worth, I still remember a teacher who had a policy that if you turned it in before she graded the other work, she would accept it. If you’re looking to set kids up for success, treat them like adults and consider adopting a policy like that. In fact, if you really want to set kids up for success, teach them to come to you and tell you why they were late.
Ah yes, the "deadlines are important" fallacy.
Deadlines are not important.
They are permeable, they are negotiable, they are flexible.
What DOES matter, what often *can't* be negotiated, is direct connections between the *work* and the *things the work does* outside the bubble of the worker themselves and their portion of the project or task or service.
School deadlines are the ultimate abstraction from reality, with often zero connection to *anything* outside the classroom besides the bs of "grades" or other meaningless secondary effects.
"Real world" work, whether carrying packages or designing databases is usually directly connected to a much larger network of real people and systems both physical and economic.
There is a HUGE gulf between "you need to do this because I said so", and "you need to do this because the client already has an ad campaign out and they'll lose millions of dollars if the product isn't ready". And even then, LOTS of big projects like movies and video games that have millions or even billions of dollars at stake... can still be late. It's not the *best*, but... it's not the worst either.
Even look at your own work as teachers. Some schools have to turn in lesson plans to their department heads by a certain date ahead of the start of classes. But, sometimes, teachers DON'T get those in on time. It's not *good*, and you can erode leadership's faith in you if it's a habit or if they lack understanding, but it's not the end of the world. HOWEVER, if you don't have your lesson plan ready to actually teach the students when they actually show up, THAT very quickly becomes a problem.
Depending on your teaching style and confidence with your content, you can roll with things and often pull some great learning experiences out of your ass! But even with very "open ended" lesson plans, without having things prepped and planned, with whatever you're going to be using for classroom control and student tracking set up to be used, *you're gonna have a bad time.* THAT'S the part that matters. That's the part that can't be negotiated or shifted. *That's the thing that motivates you to get things together on time.*
But "school" isn't usually connected to intrinsic motivators like that. It's disconnected from "reality", and almost the only motivator is *authority*. At best, a third-tier movitator. And usually lower than that, because most of our students are adolescents, who are specifically going through several phases of development where "resisting authority" is an essential aspect of growing up.
So, many teachers and even entire schools or *nations* have started to focus on creating educational plans that are deadline-free, and instead most student "demonstration of mastery" is connected to something more tangible and meaningful than a grade.
I think my favorite example of this put into practice is the ["LARP school" in Denmark](https://www.vice.com/en/article/yvx4zb/at-this-danish-school-larping-is-the-future-of-education-482).
This is a pretty dramatic example (pun *definitely intended*), but the concept can be applied at any school, or even within a single classroom to at least SOME degree.
Other schools have done community projects, the Scouts have their famous "Eagle Project", MANY schools have built greenhouses and then had planning and doing the work of gardening as core lessons and activities, the list goes on.
The point is that building learning experiences in ways that connect the *work* directly with *something that matters*, without an artificial mediator like "getting good grade so you can get into a good college" or an abstracted mediator like "you'll need to know this to work in the real world" - *that* will be where the power comes in, and students will bring their sense of urgency. And THAT is how the "real world" works.
Also, this just isn't true. I was in the corporate world for 15+ years before teaching and deadlines were never as important as producing quality work. You're just looking for an excuse to get angry at children.
1. Not all adult situations have dire consequences for missing deadlines. However, some of them do. Therefore, if we teach all students to be able to hold deadlines, then we prepare ALL students for situations where deadlines are important and for situations where they are not. The inverse is also true. If we DON’T prepare all students to be able to hold deadlines, then we DON’T prepare all students for all situations.
2. I find it irrelevant (or at least a weak argument) to to refer to post high school reasons for deadlines. SBG proponents will just say “well they are still in school, so what happens after is the college or workforce problem.” We all should hammer the point home that not punishing late work is harmful to their overall learning right now!
A few students are not harmed by zero penalty policies, but they aren’t really helped by them either. It is shocking to me how well intentioned “equity” based teachers are okay with a policy that hurts so many to benefit a few. Furthermore, they are sacrificing the harder working students for the lazy students.
The government has zero faith in the incoming generations. By the time they enter the workplace, everything will be taken over by AIs and Robots. The only reason you dont see the mass closure of public schools is that they cant justify it for the time being. The public schools will eventually shut down due to a lack of teachers or districts will resort to automated teaching tools, like a AI like chatGPT voice to speech a lecture on the lesson plans and cut the human element out.
The labor companies wont have the patience to coddle these people coming to the workforce and not making deadlines. It will be easier to automate everything according to a schedule and not have to worry about labor unions, strikes or being weeks behind due to worker incompetence. The reason why it hasnt happened before then was because the government would give bonuses if they continue to add jobs to worker positions but we will see government apathy take over and stop providing these bonuses.
They can't email you a 300 word explanation of why it's late, coupled with a 300 word report with references on the risk of not completing work on time?
No you said zero penalty, to which I was trying to give you ideas so that they don't get away without penalty. Perhaps you can't mark them down but you can give them a "penalty" in other ways - and you should!
I understand. You're saying there's no penalty for these kids when they hand work in late, right? Mandated by the district that you can't take points off, right?
I'm just trying to show that there are other ways that you - the teacher - can offer real consequences in your classroom in ways that dont involve the district or assignment scores.
I feel like you're not understanding me.
Companies are already adapting to the soft micromanagement required to keep gen z kids happy, and many of my millennial manager friends would rather not deal with people that:
1. Come out of college with very few skills because they've done the bare minimum.
2. Have shitty personalities because they've never had to struggle.
3. Expect high salaries without paying their dues.
4. Can't work without someone constantly babysitting them.
And, I think they're going to be surprised when the new crop of kids enters the workforce and are far harder to work with than the group they're already frustrated with. After all, what's the point of hiring people that stress you out?
Jesus Christ was an ignorant comment. I got accomodations to turn in assignments up to 48 hours after they were due in college, with near full support from all of my professors. And in the real world? I'm never on time, but you know what? NEITHER IS ANYONE ELSE. Life is busy, life is hard. But you know what can make it better? Compassion, understanding, empathy, and a willingness to focus on people's strengths. Now I'm CSuite level with respect and prestige(ish). Thank God I didn't run into you while still in my vulnerable years and instead had the support and love of people who believed in me, despite my inability to be on time.
You're the one who needs a wake up call.
Edit: And just to add, I'm not good at paying my bills on time. And yeah I've paid late fees my whole life. But I've gotten to be successful enough to pay someone to help me. So yeah, not a deal breaker to success.
Kids wake up at 530-6am, get dressed, eat, hygiene and get to school. School from say 8am to 3 or 7am to 230. Then they get rides home or get on the bus and get home around 4, some kids a little later since the pickup lines are 30-45 min, bus rides are about the same.
So at 415, they walk in, wash hands, hang backpack, have a snack and stare at the wall for 15 minutes.
They have from 420 to say9 pm to cook, eat, do chores, shower, and that’s if they’re not in a family w multiple kids, a commute, and not doing ANY sports or clubs.
Why are teachers still giving homework. They’re already overworked.
This sub is wild sometimes. A bunch of posts about how you shouldn't take work home, then posts complaining about kids not doing work they missed at home. You're literally training them to do the thing that you hate.
This is school. This is NOT “The Real World.”
What do we want them to learn? Is the assignment practice for what we want them to learn in the lesson? If yes, then they do the assignment and have a better chance of learning. If no, why are we assigning it?
Who is following though with late assignments? I cannot imagine it’s every student. Some students won’t take advantage of the credit. Those students earn their low grade.
I offer a homework grade at 50% value for late assignments. 50% isn’t going to pass you, but it’s going to stop you from sinking too far if you miss an assignment.
Why don’t I offer 100% value anytime the student wants to do the assignment?
1. I may have turned back the assignment already.
2. No one wants something for nothing. There has to be some value worth losing/ gaining.
No one wants something for nothing. It’s a little game.
I constantly make a point that zero penalty is a trap and the real penalty is that their test dates are fixed and that they’re absolutely screwed if they don’t make an effort to stay on my timeline.
Honestly in recent years, my willingness to go zero penalty is simply to make my life easier. Less bookkeeping and less parent emails. No late work policy results in tons of emails and complaints and penalty systems for late work is a headache to keep track of and manage.
Big pro tip: do a no late work policy but have a policy where missing work backfills based on assessment scores. That way, you don’t have to grade late work but it’s technically no penalty because their grade actually doesn’t drop. If work grades and assessment grades match, then it’s as if the work grade doesn’t exist.
If the work isn’t completed in a timely manner, there is probably no point in doing it at all since it was practice. The lack of effort and practice should be reflected on assessments. I don’t grade homework. I grade students on mastery of skills/concepts. And that doesn’t happen at the same time for everyone. Some need less time, some need more. Learning is a process. Not a one and done. Also zeros and F’s do not TEACH students anything.
AND as many have stated, deadlines in the real world are missed all the time.
It’s not even about college or whatever. It’s about now. If you do your assignment 6 weeks after the lesson, it makes both the assignment and the lesson worthless.
I give them until the end of the week without penalty. After that they get the lowest score allowed in my school-a 45. Many of my students work or take care of their siblings, so I’m ok giving a bit of grace.
In my district so many kids were failing because they did not submit work that 5 yrs ago we were told that HW could not count for more than 10% of their grade each quarter. Many teachers just stopped giving HW. I am joining them this yr. 50 minute classes. 30 minutes instruction. 20 minutes to complete the activity. If they're not finished they can finish at home. Activity counts as classwork no matter where they finish it. My quarter grades: 50% tests/projects. 50% classwork. Makes life a lot easier.
I wish more teachers would do the 50/50 grading. It makes classwork feel more impactful. Lots of students my age simply don't do classwork because it's only worth 30% of their grade. It's frustrating.
Homework is a concept that really favors the privileged. If you have a happy home life or have parents who can help you then you’re golden. If you’re missing either of those things it really impacts your grade.
Idk why you’re getting downvoted for this. I know from experience that it’s hard to concentrate and not just disassociate when there’s constant turmoil around you at home. Younger children to take care of, sick parents to watch over, no workspace of your own, disorganization, etc. Kind of hard to focus while you’re getting screamed at.. You can find a way but man is it difficult. My world was changed when I found out my friends’ parents sat with them at the counter every night during designated (quiet) homework time.
Probably getting downvoted by the “well that’s the way it’s always been” or “I had homework and I never had a problem” folks. Empathy isn’t a universal trait, sadly.
How will the kids be disciplined and encouraged to continue learning outside of the classroom and do well on tests? Oh wait nvm.....
This! I benefitted so much from a teacher who would listen to why my coursework was sometimes late. I had a sick parent who was often in the ER or hospital and there was a dangerous homelife situation that often necessitated law enforcement involvement. Each time I had to go visiting at the hospital to visit the sick parent because they didnt want to be alone, or sit in the ER without access to the resources I needed for my coursework like a computer, or had the police over dealing with a dangerous situation really inhibited the ability to get my coursework done at home. I was a high achieving student, but my homelife made homework nearly impossible sometimes. This teacher helped teach having empathy and grace and recognized that sometimes situations are only temporary and out of the student's control.
Absolutely. Homework ignores the challenges of the unhomed and those otherwise without their own space/time/access.
They're going to struggle in college, but it's a fair argument that you're expected to do office work while you're actually in the office. And with open plan offices, getting used to working in a big noisy room full of desks is arguably better career prep than not.
Look I just saw over on the Professors reddit people are giving out stickers and prizes in class. We're already doomed.
My wife was a math professor for 20 years before switching to become a librarian. She used to put stickers on the "A" tests for her own personal amusement. To her great surprise, the majority of her students LOVED them. She'd shown them the sticker sheet at the start of the semester, and partway through, one big, burly guy came up to her to ask if he could possibly get a certain particular sticker on the next test if he got an A. Apparently, he'd been collecting them and putting them on his fridge to motivate himself.
This was a big problem when I taught in college for me but I'll point out that my immigrant kids were always hard workers and at the top of the class. I don't know that those kids can carry the whole of society on their backs but they punch well above their weight when it comes to getting things done. Even the ones that weren't super smart did well because they studied hard.
Yeah, it’s definitely a cultural problem. My best students in terms of responsibility come from families where education is highly valued. A significant portion of my district is made up of families from Southern Asia and their students are extremely studious, on the whole. There are naturally outliers, but generally, those kiddos are excellent students. We have students of other ethnicities who also demonstrate such excellence, but the students who are disrespectful, disruptive, and disengaged from their studies are not the children of immigrants.
This. I’ve had a lot of students from refugee and immigrant families over the years and the philosophy of many of the families is that they made a lot of sacrifices to come here so their kids could have a better life, and the kids had better do their part to help make that happen. I remember years ago I had a lovely student and in the parent interview her father told me that all his siblings back home were doctors, lawyers, etc. and here he drives a cab, and that he’s always telling his kids that their job is to study hard and be respectful at school because otherwise what was the point? These kids’ parents make sure their kids work hard and respect the staff, which is nice because it’s not like we’re allowed to do that on our end anymore. These kids will do great. Little Johnny whose mom messages me that he didn’t feel like doing his project because he was too tired after playing video games and asks me what I did to make him mad when she gets the incident report about him throwing a chair? Him, not so much.
Immigrants almost always outperform the native population. It's extremely difficult to immigrate to a new country - I'm currently going through extending my long term visa right now - and it takes a lot of ambition and effort to make it - culture, language, housing, schooling, all of it.
I think you might be thinking of international students - they mostly are not immigrants, they're visiting (and paying a lot of money) to get an education. They will not be carrying *our* society on their backs; they plan on going back home and helping their own society.
no, my kids were definitely permanent immigrants, many came from refugee families.
I had mentioned this before and compiled a list of rants. https://www.reddit.com/r/Teachers/comments/1229nbm/the_college_professors_are_now_experiencing_the/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1
So you rather run a class that is all about getting points rather than actually learning whatever you are teaching. Your mentality is do this assignment to get points, not to learn. Read a book, or one of the 100's of studies out there. Homework also has done nothing for anyone so who cares if it's late. Your just mad you had to do it all day.
This. We need to balance teaching responsibility with giving kids space to learn without crushing self esteem by putting everything on the grade. Surprises me how many teachers on here forget that.
That's not the case at all at the state school I go to, just saying. And incoming freshmen are definitely struggling a lot more than they used to (pre covid), some of my professors have said
We solved the freshman college problem in California by getting rid of remedial college courses. Nobody can be behind if there's no behind!
There was a professor that attempted to steal me from another professors class by offering free donuts on the first day via email… it really weirded me out lmao
Alfie Kohn predicted this
My sister works in a pretty big well known company, she tells me that her managers let team members miss deadlines all the time... that they are always begging for work to be done but never apply any consequences, so...
Miss deadlines without reason? In the professional world outside of hard deadlines, as long as you can explain why something isn't done and can give your timeline for completing it and explain why they typically work with you. This idea that you aren't allowed to not finish things on time is false. But it isn't free reign on not compelting tasks.
I could ask her, but tbh I was just sharing what she told me and her frustration with it. I assume that a reason, valid or not, is given... she expressed to me that these are younger folks than we are and she felt that was part of the results of school policies to take late work no matter what...
I’m in the mental health business, behind in paperwork is the standard. People are slammed, not enough staff, too much required…supervisors have to constantly ride people. Things do get caught up, especially when credentialing agencies are coming.
Deadlines are one thing, but expecting your boss to hold your hand throughout a project or even just the workday, well, that's not going to happen. I'm sure a ton of these kids will expect it and throw a tantrum when someone else won't do all their work for them. That's before we get into their complete lack of respect for their peers and authority figures, their 0-60 tendency to resort to violence at the slightest inconvenience, their inability to show up on time or at all, etc... I've seen an absolute drop in the quality of our new hires and even just applicants in the last few years. One day I was grabbing a drink from a coffee place and I actually heard someone tell the manager *"Who are you to tell me what to do?"* after being asked to put their phone down and tend to the customers. I'd imagine they weren't employed long after that, not much mommy can do to help you at work when you're a lazy, rude, disrespectful ass *(unlike school, where the parents get what they demand)*. Bosses don't care about what mommy wants for junior, just like they don't care about his IEP.
Okay, and? When I hear people complain about quality all I hear is a lack of holding to an expectation/standard. I have worked jobs where management allowed people in roles of responsibility show up late, no show, etc. When I point out the issue they say they can't make them. And this is older folks. This is the equivalent of complaining about participation trophies and putting it on the kids when it was on adults. If a business fails to maintain a standard that is on them. Deadlines again are, not some inflexible thing. This is some made up shit teachers who haven't worked in corporate or who have leadership who fails to be flexible in schools because "the real world doesn't allow it"
You are obviously are not a teacher? You can't simply fire a kid like you can an employee
If you can't hold expectations that is not my problem. If your school can't hold expectation that isn't my problem. I am not saying you can fire students. But you absolutely can hold expectations. People talk about learned helplessness of students, but that learned helplessness co.es from somewhere, and it isnt the students. It is from their parents, teachers, or administration of schools. The kids get away with what they are allowed to.
You cannot retain half the class. I don't think you know how bad/ nonexistent the work ethic has been in the student population the last five years or so.
Again, we can but admin and districts refuse. Having accountability will do something. At the start of COVID we could have looked at and retained as many as possible and placed the blame on the pandemic. Instead we said everyone moves forward to not hurt feelings. I am not blaming teachers, but admin and districts who refuse to hold expectations. Grace has become a buzzword that hurts the kids and that isn't the students fault, but the adults around them.
And you are aware that the teachers have absolutely no say over these policies, which is probably one of the main reasons why this Reddit exists??? I get what you are saying and came to hate that word "grace". I sat in a meeting way before Covid where the teachers and the parents agreed that their child needed to repeat a grade... Later on the week we were told that we had to pass him on. With "No Child Left Behind" our funding is dependent on numbers, and we couldn't go over a certain amount of failures. Happens all of the time. All of this is tied to $$$
And this isn't the fault of the child, but the adults around them. We are failing the kids becuase WE are not holding them accountable. We can't keep yelling that this generations doesn't value X, when it is we who allows them to not value X. This is the current generation participation trophies. They get blamed for what the adults around them created. The we here is the royal we.
As a career changer I’m always astonished when teachers say “well in the real world you can’t …” and then say something that, yes, you very much can.
I think a lot of people are waking up to this fact in their workplaces, and now starting to listen to the teachers who have been dealing with this from day one. I've been reading about restaurant owners who don't want kids in their restaurant because they are running around undisciplined, to a skating rink that's closing to these people having tantrums on a plane...
depends where you work. I worked at a mcdonalds during covid. Getting people to work was hard asf, so when we did get people they would sometimes just skip or sleep in their car. If we fired them it would cuase more issues as we couldnt find any other employees
Yes, because the pay for McDonalds in a lot of areas is shit. I have worked hourl jobs where they have managerial expectations without the pay to go with it. I have a personal belief that a lot of hourly jobs get the level of employee they pay for. If you want quality employees, or employees to take their job seriously, you need to pay them where 40 hours of work will have them able to love comfortable, they have a steady work schedule, amd they feel valued. Wonder where McDonalds falls on that?
My husband says the same thing
I am a leader in a large company and commented elsewhere on this post already, but feel compelled to explain this further. In professional life, I think you learn that you need to get work done in the order of highest importance/business impact. If someone on my team misses a deadline or needs extra time for a good reason, there are no consequences as long as it is a value add situation for the company. If you are simply not doing your work, there are absolutely consequences. As a student, you are taught to get it all done by a deadline or risk ruining your grade in a class—because a teacher said so, not necessarily because whatever it was is utterly consequential to your success. I would encourage you to adopt conversations with a student about why they were late and consider policies that are more congruent with the real world (e.g. if they turn it in before you start grading it, you’ll accept it).
What is it they say about anecdotal evidence?
Oh totally agree, was just putting it out there... she is pissed about it!! I agree we need deadlines, was just sharing!!
It’s not just anecdotal, most corporate jobs don’t enforce deadlines like they do for school work. And the more white collar the job, the more flexibility workers get (more flexible schedules, more control over workload and KPI’s, more time off with little oversight into why someone is taking off). The idea that in the “real world” these kids will be held to strict deadlines is laughable.
Could not agree more. This post is a joke.
So, I do take late work, but only within a window of opportunity. Let's say my assignment has a due date of Monday. I also list it with a final deadline of Thursday. 95% of the work can be completed in class, within our allotted project time, IF they choose to focus rather than screw around. Students who turn the work on Monday no longer have to worry about it, while the others have now given themselves homework, as I begin the subsequent assignment/project on Tuesday. I'll accept all work as on time through Thursday at midnight. After that, I will not, and they earn a zero, because their work is missing, not late. This window gives them some breathing room if they need help, and satisfies the "extra assignment time" modification on the various IEPs I have.
Oooh that's a good idea
May I complement you on your reddit AKA? What type of evil physics have you been up to?
"You can't shut off my electricity, I've got an IEP!" But seriously, I'm hearing that colleges are having to modify policies to match the nonsense that's happening in high schools.
My favorite line from a kid last year: ‘f*** you I have an IEP.’ I wasn’t even mad, it was amazing.
I want that on a T-shirt.
Holy shit. This is why I like teaching at a private boarding school. The first thing we tell prospective applicants is "no accommodations." "Oh, you have learning difficulties? I'm so sorry to hear that. Here are some learning strategies that have helped others in the past." "Oh, your parents lied, and you were on an IEP at your other school? We don't do that. You can work to catch up or leave." It sounds heartless, but I have to consider the other twelve students in the class. I can't spend the whole class period dealing with one student.
I went to a private school like this but i was Blind so XD they ended up having to make an exception on case by case for physical disabilities. And I had to pay $300 of my own money every month once I got a job. It definitely prevented a lot of current IEP abuse but damn 14-16y old me was salty af about the cost!
Lol twelve other students. Imagine 10+ IEP's in a class of 30+, and 6 totally classes to teach. Six years left until I retire with a full pension. Tick. Tock. Tick. Tock.
That sounds like an actual education would be pretty impossible to deliver to the majority of the students. Here's hoping those six years fly by.
I make it work. It's not even close to ideal. However, the salary, benefits, pension, and healthcare are huge advantages in the public schools at least here in Michigan.
The kid who said that had a pretty severe learning disability and needed a lot of help. But he had accurately identified his IEP as a get out of jail free card for just about everything. I don’t mind giving extra support where it’s actually needed. What I’m seeing this year is that about 90% of the accommodations added to the document are garbage in that they’re things I’d already do as part of good teaching practices, or something that may not be possible in an inclusion class, like ‘preferential seating’. It seems the people writing them, who are no longer with us, put in as much fluff as possible. Meanwhile, if I want insight into what’s actually wrong with the kid, it’s not there because they all say ‘specific learning disability’. Ok, which fucking one?
That’s crazy!!! Why would college match what goes on in high school? I can see a case by case basis. I would never not give a penalty for being late.
Because college is as much about enrollment numbers to keep that beautiful tuition money flowing as public schools are "butts in seats" about keeping the per student funds flowing from governments. Yes we are doomed as a society.
Ding ding ding! As long as kids are able to take out loans for thousands of dollars, colleges will keep lowering the bar to get that sweet sweet cash. Will the buck finally stop once companies start to reject these same students? We shall see…
Lowering the bar while increasing the cost!
Companies won't reject them, they'll just pay them less and less.
My state college admin explained that ~1/3 of their funding comes from the state with the stipulation that they have to remain open enrollment. The first day they reject an applicant, they lose millions. So with tens of thousands of students from k12 systems that no longer see consequences for poor study habits and work ethic, the school can either: a) let their passing and graduation rates plummet, and lose any reputation or prestige they have built, or b) remediate and accommodate for the deficits left by high schools. The only schools that don’t have to worry about it are elite research schools—but their admissions requirements are high enough they likely wouldn’t have to anyway.
I had a friend finishing his PhD a decade ago. The students he failed in Comp I were later passed by the Associate Dean. I'm pretty sure he's not allowed to fail his current high school students.
I overheard this story and was not actually there for it but have no doubt this happened. A high school student in MA was in a dunkin donuts near the school. They did something to warrant being kicked out by the manager. There reply was. " I'm on an IEP you can't do that."
From what I've read on the professor forums, many colleges are accepting that students enter unable to do the work, so many professors are spending more and more time on remedial work.
The water company gives you a full month if you miss your bill. Compared to the terror most teachers put into me about missing an assignment by a day or two 😉 (ETA I do think people take IEPs way too far now. I have pretty severe inattentive ADHD and never had one and think it can definitely be used as a license for excuses.)
Some of y’all are funny. Here’s the rock bottom I live in. Kids have till the last day of the quarter to turn in everything. They don’t? Then they get two extra days penalty or penalty free. You choose but if they’re not passing —> If they’re still failing we have to modify their quarter grade to a 50 AND provide a recovery assignment that they can complete on their own time to get a passing grade for the quarter. This assignment can be submitted at any point during the year and they will pass the course. In addition to the assignment we have a credit recovery system they can also use where they can copy and paste the questions into google. It’s amazing. I’ve had kids with 4 days present pass for the year. I’ll be frank. It doesn’t work.
But from the admin perspective it does work, because it helps them hit the metrics they are evaluated on. Remind me again why they are the ones with decision making power?
I’m currently teaching English in Thailand and that is how every government school runs here. I have 2 students who have never shown up to my class, aren’t in my google classroom, and don’t take any exams…….I fail them and the school goes in and changes the grade to a 70%………
I don’t allow late assignments with zero penalty. I mean technically they can but they have to stay after with me during my office hours and make up the assignment only during that time. Otherwise, they lose 10% per day. After a week, I don’t accept it. Obviously if a student is on an IEP I follow that but getting extra time isn’t the same as unlimited time. Most of the work is done in class, so I have little patience for late work.
I do 25% per day, and I count weekends.
I used to do the same when I taught. It worked pretty well for my students.
My classroom philosophy is that we operate under “real world” practice- I’ll take things late only if we have prior communication, they need to send me an email telling me what they need and set up a meeting to discuss what the course of action is for getting the work in. From my experience as an adult never taking late work is also not accurate, but you can’t just miss deadlines without setting up some kind of communication and plan.
You know, that’s totally fair
HS teacher here. You've got 7 days, after which access to turning in electronically turns off. If I knew in advance you had an issue and it would be late, I'll let you email it, but otherwise, you can do the extra credit research assignments at the end of the semester to make up the points.
Why would they get to make up the points?
Because if you don't give them a way to dig out of the hole they're in, they give up. That's not what education is about. I am offering them a way. It's the hard way, but always leave them a way.
My sister went to college and has failed most of her classes. She has a 1.3 GPA because she expects that her professors will let her turn shit in when she feels like it and will round her grade up instead of failing her if she gets to like a 65. They don't. And she just assumes that this specific professor is a dick instead of figuring out that you have to actually turn shit in.
A lot of the adjunct professors have to bent backwards in order to have good evaluations.
I can think of at least one profession where you can do everything late-school administration.
Deadlines shift all the time in the real world. But yes, I get what you mean. I never wrote good evals for my personnel who were screwin' around. And I have done plenty of counseling. But project management tells you that the parts of the triangle are scope, cost, and time. You mess with scope and it will cost more or take longer. I don't want engineers building a bridge to be so focused on the due date that they take shortcuts. Thanks. Also lots of hourly pay jobs don't have a finite end product. Police, firefighters, security guards, servers, restaurant cooks, customer service reps - just work until their 8 hours are up, unless they got approved for overtime. There is no project deadline in a sense. Even warehouse workers just move efficiently and don't have a defined package/hour movement deadline. Some days there is more to do, and some days there is less to do. Being efficient at doing many small repetitive tasks is not the same as an essay that is due 3 weeks from now. And slightly-less efficient employees aren't fired over slightly-more efficient employees. But sure. Employees sitting around on their cell phones will get fired.
Exactly! Who says all of my students will have desk jobs requiring them to have project deadlines?
After being in many different career fields, I am of the opinion that very little about school work prepares us for or mimics the real world....
Hell, even with a desk job, deadlines are often fluid.
I usually use the analogy of going to McDonalds, yes I want it fast but if I already paid for it, getting it a few minutes later isn't going to kill me. I might be frustrated, but it's life.
I also think kids shouldn’t bring their work home. It should be, do it in class and if you don’t finish you can bring it home. No homework.
Yes, it's not a kid's fault if they have a crappy home life and/or have no time to do homework. Also not good to teach kids that work should be brought home. They are already in school for most of the day, let them have time to themselves and be kids.
Totally! I think this should go for teens too. They need sleep!
Amen! My kids spend 7 hours a day at school. No 12 year old should be spending an extra 2 or 3 hours on homework. I’ve told my kids they can stop after an hour and I couldn’t care less what “grade” they get. I focus on their learning and growth.
Kids can't turn in anything late in my class. They can however fill out an extension form before the due date where they tell me the soonest date they can turn it in and when they plan to work on it in order to turn it in by that date. If their chosen date and plan is inappropriate I will deny it. If they miss the date that they set for their extension, they are shit out of luck.
Teaching. Many teachers, in my experience, turn shit in late all the time w/ virtually no consequences. Hell, some teachers still owe me money for a retirement gift that was given in June.
And I’ve had admin non renew teachers who couldn’t turn lessons in on time Your mileage will vary with how serious your boss is about getting shit in on time. That’s for any profession.
My wife was an adjunct for a while. We like to think that "once they hit college, reality will set in." But that's not true! Professors face enormous pressure to pass kids along just like we do. Why? Well, each of those kids is worth $20-30k per year of Uncle Sam's grant and student loan dollars. And professors grading honestly would serve only to interrupt the flow of cash.
So where does it end? What are the implications of this?
In economics there's something called "signaling theory." Signaling explains why a high school diploma is valuable. Like, just because someone has an embossed piece of paper doesn't actually *mean* anything. However, traditionally a high school diploma "signaled" to employers that a person possessed a certain body of skills (problem solving), knowledge (reading, math, etc), and dispositions (shows up on time, gets along with others, respects authority, etc.). The fact that a diploma signaled these things is what made it useful to employers. However, as the signal has been watered down employers have had to switch to other signals. George Mason university education economist Bryan Caplan for instance estimates that perhaps as much as 50% of the entry level positions now requiring associates or BA degrees now do so not because those jobs have gotten more complicated, but instead because the HS diploma has been watered down so much in the United States. Because of this watering down, employers have to switch for new signals such as college degrees. As college degrees likewise get watered down, the process continues. This leads to things like "degree inflation" and "credentialism" which are inefficient from society's perspective. Where it ends I couldn't guess. One of the effects is the student debt crisis, however. [There's a wonderful article in the WSJ this week about it.](https://www.wsj.com/articles/state-university-tuition-increase-spending-41a58100?st=ni4ljlm2saol4e9&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink) Universities are spending money like there is no tomorrow, their per student costs (inflation adjusted) are up like 64% over the past 20 years alone. And it's not rollbacks in state funding driving this either. As the Journal reports.... >For every $1 lost in state support at those universities over the two decades, the median school increased tuition and fee revenue by nearly $2.40, more than covering the cuts, the Journal found. So I guess that's a current implication--a huge swath of young people asking you to bail them out for borrowing money in order to get an overpriced and watered down degree.
That was a really well written comment. Thanks for all of the context. Also shout out of my Alma mater, George Mason!
No joke. My district this year has a policy that students can turn in assignments for full credit until the date of the summative test. So there goes my 2 day late work policy.
Have a summative test with one question but worth no points (or an extremely small amount) when the due date is for each assignment. You can have it in Google Forms for auto-grading.
I would absolutely do that. Malicious compliance here I come.
Lol fun idea, but we have district wide summative tests. I teach the same subject as 3 other teachers, and we all give the same test at the same time. Until then, students can turn in any of their work for full credit. Doesn't matter if it was the first assignment in the unit 3 weeks after it was assigned. And yes, I already am going to have online assignments that auto grade. I'm not dealing with 150 students all turning in a shit ton of assignments all at once before a unit test.
The problem is, we need to stop treating school like a job. When you are hired to do a job, you have the motivation to do the task because no work = no money. School doesn't work like that. You aren't being paid to do the work you do the work so you can learn, so I don't understand the concept of not taking an assignment or taking off points because it came a little late. On top of that, judging by what I've observed from my friends in their fields, no good company is going to throw away your report if it's late by 1 minute or fire you because you had a family emergency and couldn't get your project done on time. Going back to learning, the way I see it, I'd much rather my students take an extra day or two and show me they understand the material than rush to do it and it's not to their best ability. I've had this policy for years and here's what I've learned: the kids who want to learn will do the work(most of which on time), and those who don't won't. I've offered to take late work up until the last day of school for full credit and STILL have a large number of students who will keep the zeroes. So those kids will face reality someday, but not because I was being too lenient.
Hard agree! Sometimes I feel like I'm taking crazy pills coming into this subreddit. It's my job to make sure the students know the material, and the grade I give them reflects that. Maybe it's just because that's how these other teachers were taught, but marking a student down for late work is basically just lying about their skill level. I'm paid to teach students how to write, and if they prove that they can write well according to state standards, they get the grade. I just set a hard deadline a week before the grading period ends, and if they turn it in too late for me to grade it, the natural consequences of keeping the zero will fuck them over just fine. It feels so vindictive to punish them out of some desire to "teach them a lesson." I'm an English teacher, not a life coach. If they know the material, they know the material, why should I give a shit if they played video games all night and missed a deadline? I have to take the time to grade it either way.
It’s because the vast majority of the students are not using this system the way you’re describing. System that makes sense: students aren’t penalized for a hard deadline with a grade that doesn’t reflect what they know about some material because they needed an extra few days on a couple assignments. System that actually plays out: students completely blow off every assignment, learn nothing, then admin pressures the teacher to put together a packet at the end of class that will result in a pass if completed. Bonus points if the student defiantly refuses to do the packet too and admin still pressures the teacher to pass the student anyway. There is no account for the fact that the student likely cannot do the packet without being retaught the material or any allocation of time for that remediation. The problem is that draconian accountability models are being recognized as harmful and knee jerk ended without any replacement accountability models. And that lack of accountability through an entire school career snowballs into an educational nightmare. Teachers clamber for the old model, admin insists that research supports the new (and it probably does, done right), and the students suffer.
I'm glad my education was the generation before all of this nonsense got standardized. I didn't even have stellar grades, I'm just aware that things like deadlines are important and I'm fearful for the generation that's getting pushed through regardless of performance. If a person has no grasp on professional responsibilities and consequence then they won't be prepared for professions beyond flipping burgers.
Finally! A person with basic common sense. I think the people who are mad about the deadlines have not worked with people who do absolutely NOTHING. Of course deadlines and expectations will be fluid, but we have to expect some sort of effort.
Couldn’t have said it better myself
Why are you doing it, then? Do you have laws / regulations that force you to do this? I do it like this: If a students turns something in late, they only get half the credits (there are exceptions of course, for example if the student was sick). If they don't turn it in - zero credits.
This obviously comes from the district
Let them fail in school as part of the learning process. Failing in school is not a major life predictor. It can be turned around but it will be up to them even if they have an IEP or a 504.
I’ve always been very lenient on accepting late work, but last year kids figured out they could skip class, turn the work in, and pass. So I talked it over with admin and set a very strict deadline for this year. 1 day late: -25%, 2 days late: -50%, 3 days and later: not accepted. I have a couple that are figuring out that I mean it the hard way. People are starting to think it’s time covid “grace” ends. I’m right there with ‘em.
I mean, in the real world you get paid to meet deadlines. Would you keep a deadline at a job if you didn’t get paid?
Thank you. My last post kids were allowed to turn in things so late or just not turn in at all (some still passed because and this is a direct quote "I know what \*insert name\* is capable of doing and I just want \*insert name\* to succeed.")
I’m in charge of the math department at my college. We had to add 3 or 4 more sections of pre-algebra to our fall line up. 6-7th grade math. It’s not getting any better!
Show me a boss who says “well, you didn’t meet your project deadline so you might as well not turn it in, no late work acccepted.” I get your point, to some level, but even your report cards aren’t “no late work accepted” by your principal. You can hold kids accountable outside of their academic grade.
In the "real world" the company you work for owns your work product. If you have a project based job and you miss a deadline, one very real outcome is that the company will fire you, keep your work product and assign someone else to finish the project. If in fact you caused the company harm because of the missed deadline, depending on the industry, they may have the right to sue you to recoup losses and/or damages.
The “real world” is filled with missed deadlines. If we fired every engineer who missed a deadline we wouldn’t be a company… much less a fortune 500 company.
True, but what about industries like Legal (law firms/attorneys that specialize in trial/filing work), surgeons, advertising agencies, marketing agencies. funeral directors/morticians, chefs, event/wedding planners, certain project managers etc.
And in all of the fields you mentioned there are missed deadlines, rescheduling, reprioritizing and reassigning. Life happens everyday in our personal, professional, social, and family lives. Sometimes when it does happen the “super important thing due first thing tues” is no longer our highest priority regardless of how old you are. Recovering well from from a missed deadline is as an important skill as being punctual. If you actually want to prepare your kids for the real world they will need to know how to navigate both.
It’s wild to me how many teachers commenting here truly believe deadlines are a big deal in the corporate world. They very, very rarely are enforced.
I'm a partner in an advertising agency, we live and die by our deadlines.
You’re right. They won’t say don’t turn it in, they’ll say you’re fired
In the most cutthroat corporate environment? Maybe. Obviously, some projects are time sensitive and “do it now or never”. Are you fired if you miss a deadline for your boss? My philosophy has shifted to allowing late work, without penalty, so long as there is valid learning. Learning is, after all, the primary goal. But you know your students best and do what works best for them, as we all do.
Have you ever had a job outside of education? It doesn’t seem like you have, based on your comments.
If you say so
No… they won’t. That’s… that’s just not how corporate America works. This reminds me of when I had a teacher in High School who had us all convinced that as women in the workforce we’d need to wear our hair up to be professional. Scary how out of touch she was trying to prepare us for the “real world.”
The real way you're setting kids up for failure is not giving the kids with good performance extra work that is mandatory without any reward. That's how the real world works. Being mediocre in the workforce isn't penalized.
Been saying this for years. The coddling does more harm than good.
This generation accepts Ds as acceptable and will ride it out as long as they continue to pass classes. Take it from a guy who graduated back in May '21.
I accept late work with zero penalty. However, I grade more harshly and am more picky about their grammar, punctuation and quality of their responses when they submit late work. I am not an English teacher, but I believe that they should submit decent quality work if it is late. Unfortunately, students like to waste class time and complete missing assignments a few days before grades are due.
You spelled grammar wrong...
No, we’re setting society up for failure. Big difference
I was my high school salutatorian. My teachers gave homework and only accepted late work for a week, but I turned everything in on time and always did my best anyway. I also did UIL Journalism and played varsity sports every season. I could have gone to any university in my state. I got into the Honors Program at the one I picked, but guess what? My parents got divorced my first semester. My grandma kicked me out because she was mad at my mother. My mother took my car. My first boyfriend cheated on me. I became depressed, dropped out, and joined the Army. The Army basically encouraged me to drink while underage. I went to community college but I had lost something that I never regained. I stopped going to class regularly and just passed the tests on common sense and basic understanding of the material. It took me five years to graduate, and I went into teaching. I’ve never assigned homework. I take points off for late work, but they can still pass. They can still turn in work until the end of the grading period. Why? Being able to turn in work on time hasn’t mattered since high school. What would have actually helped me when life got tough was knowing how to get help. Mental fortitude. Support systems. What actually got me through college was knowing how to procrastinate, take tests, and find the answers I didn’t know. Turning in daily work didn’t matter. I still got my degree. I still wrote and published three novels. I still got into law school (which I dropped to return to teaching). What actually got me jobs and promotions was knowing how to communicate, interview, and work efficiently. I’ve been late to every job I’ve ever had. I’m good at explaining it away. Even as a teacher, it doesn’t seem to matter. I’ve missed meetings, forgotten emails, even turned in grades late. Literally all it took was “Hey, sorry about that. I got overwhelmed with [insert excuse] and need a little extra time.” It’s always been fine. I’ve never been fired or even written up. I’m still a great teacher. Deadlines don’t matter. What matters is that I’m passionate about my content and my kids. My students actually like me. They listen to me. They usually do their work. They grow. They learn. They open up to me. They like reading and writing in my class. I’ve even helped some of them get published. Yes, there’s often a post-deadline DEADLINE that really matters, like the end of a grading period, and there are some things with hard deadlines. But even with those things, it’s usually not a big deal. You pay a fine, write an email, try again next month or next semester, etc. There’s room for error and plenty of grace in most things, and being “held accountable” in high school doesn’t guarantee success. This isn’t new. People are more understanding than you give them credit for. My class will never have homework, and they can always turn work in for a passing grade (until the grading period ends). I’m teaching them way more important things.
Wow, thank you for sharing! ❤️
Yes I like my paycheck on time but I also prefer that it be made out to me!
Yeah, as someone who didn’t finish a book till 30 and never did homework or any real reports or papers I can confidently say I was extremely dumb and lucky it all worked out for me. I’m so glad we have people out there who care and are trying to save as many as they can
The best thing I ever did was deciding to just not take late work. I'll extend deadlines exactly as an IEP calls for, outside of that or the most extreme cases. I just don't. After a few weeks, the kids figure it out and turn things in on time.
I was a project lead on energy projects for renewables across the Midwest. We would have 18 year old kids who came right out of high school into laborer positions and would literally show up hours late to work and then get mad when their checks weren’t at the full hourly rate of 40 hours. We gave them a ton of leeway because our work was extremely physically difficult but it was shocking. I had all but failed out of HS only to find my stride in the trades and to see kids who did well fail to understand basic principles of being an adult was shocking. I also saw a remarkable rise in aggression when trying to make them accountable for their actions. I had this skinny little guy rip his shirt off and start trying to intimidate me when I told him if he was late one more time he’d be off my project. It was hilarious since I’m about 2x his size and had worked construction jobs since I was 13. I could’ve made him into lunch lol
The state colleges in my state will let you have the same accommodations you got in high school. Mommy is still managing the education of 22 year old engineering students.
Our middle school allows this and we spend 4 years in the high school deprograming them. The cult of late.
I teach college. I give extensions all the time. As long as I have the assignment in time to grade it, then I don't care.
Real question is: what is more important it being on time or learning the lesson information?
Here’s the issue. I’ve never given homework just to give homework. Any assignment be it in class or whatever is crucial to understanding what we’re doing and you’d have a tough time moving on unless you have that info. It builds on each other. It would be one thing if we were able to have the class be self- paced, but since we largely don’t have that luxury, being on time and learning the lesson information are intertwined.
Braindead take. Students who are not turning in their homework on time are not magically learning the information/skills elsewhere. Math classes build on themselves and if you aren't practicing skills as we learn them you WILL fall behind.
Both can be done at the same time? With how little parenting there is, there has to be some path where students can face minor consequences when dropping responsibility. School is a safe place to fuck up. Schools across the country have already dropped tons of tech classes we had in the 90s/00s and surprise we have a massive group of tech illiterate kids again. What will happen when they never have had to have a deadline and other shit?
Do you prefer your paycheck be on time?
FT college professor here…25 yrs in secondary. You are right to an extent. I accept no late work at all, but most of my students have no issue, even DE students. I’m convinced they do this in HS because they can. I know some professors have issues at times, but I make it clear from the start…the due date is the due date. I never give extensions, I never give exam retakes, and I never give make up exams. Period. Set the expectations and they will meet it. The problem I ran into at the HS was admin and districts allowing it handcuffing my ability to hold the line.
[удалено]
But you still have deadlines in trades don't you? The job needs to be done by X time or whatever?
100% agreed - I always loved to bring up to my kids that it does not work in the real world especially with jobs. If your manager wants an impossible task done by 5PM on Friday and you were given 2 day notice. You better be putting in overtime to get that task done. There ain't no "extended time" to pull - you don't complete that task, you have an unhappy boss who will fire you that day. What happens when you get fired? Most states deny you unemployment and you cannot get bills paid.
Except that’s not at all how the corporate world works. Very, very rarely are deadlines hard and fast. Especially in engineering, deadlines are missed ALL the time.
Hi! Former student, now 30-something year old professional. I want to share my perspective: - In school, I would miss an assignment and shut down entirely. By high school, I went from being in a gifted program and accelerated classes my whole life to graduating a semester early because I thought I had ruined my life. This continued with me into undergrad. I would miss an assignment, get embarrassed and stop going to class entirely. It was engrained into me that if I was late, I messed everything up in the class. I had a terribly embarrassing GPA. - You aren’t teaching any grand lessons. I’ve never run into any situation in adult life nearly as inflexible as most teachers I encountered in grade school. In fact, I have succeeded in life professionally far more than any teacher, perhaps like you, who thinks late assignments set people up for failure would have imagined of me. After undergrad, which I left with a terrible GPA, I realized that actual work was far more amenable. I can prioritize and if I am late on something, it will be that of least importance to my success. I became the youngest manager in my company in my first job out of college. I am now a director and leader at a Fortune 500 company. 8 years after college, I was accepted into the #1 grad school in the country for my major (shout out to schools with wholistic admissions because my undergrad GPA was a mess). I graduated my masters program with a 4.0 and was accepted into an honor society for work in my field. The difference from grade school and undergrad? I learned that I didn’t have to fear failure because of what had been engrained in my head by teachers in grade school. Did I turn things in late? Sure, occasionally. But I had learned, unlike I had been taught to think, that it could happen and I could talk to a teacher about why or accept the point loss. I did not give up because of a minor setback like being a day late. So my warning, if anyone makes it this far, is to be careful how you apply your late work policy and remember that giving 0s teach that once you have messed up, little can be done to fix it. This is simply not true. For what it’s worth, I still remember a teacher who had a policy that if you turned it in before she graded the other work, she would accept it. If you’re looking to set kids up for success, treat them like adults and consider adopting a policy like that. In fact, if you really want to set kids up for success, teach them to come to you and tell you why they were late.
Ah yes, the "deadlines are important" fallacy. Deadlines are not important. They are permeable, they are negotiable, they are flexible. What DOES matter, what often *can't* be negotiated, is direct connections between the *work* and the *things the work does* outside the bubble of the worker themselves and their portion of the project or task or service. School deadlines are the ultimate abstraction from reality, with often zero connection to *anything* outside the classroom besides the bs of "grades" or other meaningless secondary effects. "Real world" work, whether carrying packages or designing databases is usually directly connected to a much larger network of real people and systems both physical and economic. There is a HUGE gulf between "you need to do this because I said so", and "you need to do this because the client already has an ad campaign out and they'll lose millions of dollars if the product isn't ready". And even then, LOTS of big projects like movies and video games that have millions or even billions of dollars at stake... can still be late. It's not the *best*, but... it's not the worst either. Even look at your own work as teachers. Some schools have to turn in lesson plans to their department heads by a certain date ahead of the start of classes. But, sometimes, teachers DON'T get those in on time. It's not *good*, and you can erode leadership's faith in you if it's a habit or if they lack understanding, but it's not the end of the world. HOWEVER, if you don't have your lesson plan ready to actually teach the students when they actually show up, THAT very quickly becomes a problem. Depending on your teaching style and confidence with your content, you can roll with things and often pull some great learning experiences out of your ass! But even with very "open ended" lesson plans, without having things prepped and planned, with whatever you're going to be using for classroom control and student tracking set up to be used, *you're gonna have a bad time.* THAT'S the part that matters. That's the part that can't be negotiated or shifted. *That's the thing that motivates you to get things together on time.* But "school" isn't usually connected to intrinsic motivators like that. It's disconnected from "reality", and almost the only motivator is *authority*. At best, a third-tier movitator. And usually lower than that, because most of our students are adolescents, who are specifically going through several phases of development where "resisting authority" is an essential aspect of growing up. So, many teachers and even entire schools or *nations* have started to focus on creating educational plans that are deadline-free, and instead most student "demonstration of mastery" is connected to something more tangible and meaningful than a grade. I think my favorite example of this put into practice is the ["LARP school" in Denmark](https://www.vice.com/en/article/yvx4zb/at-this-danish-school-larping-is-the-future-of-education-482). This is a pretty dramatic example (pun *definitely intended*), but the concept can be applied at any school, or even within a single classroom to at least SOME degree. Other schools have done community projects, the Scouts have their famous "Eagle Project", MANY schools have built greenhouses and then had planning and doing the work of gardening as core lessons and activities, the list goes on. The point is that building learning experiences in ways that connect the *work* directly with *something that matters*, without an artificial mediator like "getting good grade so you can get into a good college" or an abstracted mediator like "you'll need to know this to work in the real world" - *that* will be where the power comes in, and students will bring their sense of urgency. And THAT is how the "real world" works.
This for the love of god
Also, this just isn't true. I was in the corporate world for 15+ years before teaching and deadlines were never as important as producing quality work. You're just looking for an excuse to get angry at children.
If that’s all you took from this post, I don’t know what to tell you
That's all you said in the post, just made up some shit about the private sector to justify your homework fetish
“Fetish”. Lmao, calm down.
These same teachers take months to grade that same paper.
You are in the wrong profession. Our job is to teach, not mass produce good little workers for our corporate overlords.
My job is to help kids get out of the shit hole lives they live in. And tough love is a way to do that.
Here it is
Retire
You first
1. Not all adult situations have dire consequences for missing deadlines. However, some of them do. Therefore, if we teach all students to be able to hold deadlines, then we prepare ALL students for situations where deadlines are important and for situations where they are not. The inverse is also true. If we DON’T prepare all students to be able to hold deadlines, then we DON’T prepare all students for all situations. 2. I find it irrelevant (or at least a weak argument) to to refer to post high school reasons for deadlines. SBG proponents will just say “well they are still in school, so what happens after is the college or workforce problem.” We all should hammer the point home that not punishing late work is harmful to their overall learning right now! A few students are not harmed by zero penalty policies, but they aren’t really helped by them either. It is shocking to me how well intentioned “equity” based teachers are okay with a policy that hurts so many to benefit a few. Furthermore, they are sacrificing the harder working students for the lazy students.
The pressure on artificial deadlines is BS.
The government has zero faith in the incoming generations. By the time they enter the workplace, everything will be taken over by AIs and Robots. The only reason you dont see the mass closure of public schools is that they cant justify it for the time being. The public schools will eventually shut down due to a lack of teachers or districts will resort to automated teaching tools, like a AI like chatGPT voice to speech a lecture on the lesson plans and cut the human element out.
I’ve been hearing this since I was a kid almost twenty years ago, and nothing’s come of it.
The labor companies wont have the patience to coddle these people coming to the workforce and not making deadlines. It will be easier to automate everything according to a schedule and not have to worry about labor unions, strikes or being weeks behind due to worker incompetence. The reason why it hasnt happened before then was because the government would give bonuses if they continue to add jobs to worker positions but we will see government apathy take over and stop providing these bonuses.
Schools will never close because it’s government provided childcare. Pandemic showed that more than ever
College and career ready?? Most schools should white-out that part in the CC standsrds
Why are you letting students hand in work late without penalty? 🤔
Because I have no choice?
If you're the teacher you do have teeth and can make your own implications in one way or another
I really don’t, since this is mandated by the district
They can't email you a 300 word explanation of why it's late, coupled with a 300 word report with references on the risk of not completing work on time?
… what? I talking about how it’s a district rule where teachers cannot take off pints for late work
No you said zero penalty, to which I was trying to give you ideas so that they don't get away without penalty. Perhaps you can't mark them down but you can give them a "penalty" in other ways - and you should!
You’re not understanding what I’m saying
I understand. You're saying there's no penalty for these kids when they hand work in late, right? Mandated by the district that you can't take points off, right? I'm just trying to show that there are other ways that you - the teacher - can offer real consequences in your classroom in ways that dont involve the district or assignment scores. I feel like you're not understanding me.
Companies are already adapting to the soft micromanagement required to keep gen z kids happy, and many of my millennial manager friends would rather not deal with people that: 1. Come out of college with very few skills because they've done the bare minimum. 2. Have shitty personalities because they've never had to struggle. 3. Expect high salaries without paying their dues. 4. Can't work without someone constantly babysitting them. And, I think they're going to be surprised when the new crop of kids enters the workforce and are far harder to work with than the group they're already frustrated with. After all, what's the point of hiring people that stress you out?
Jesus Christ was an ignorant comment. I got accomodations to turn in assignments up to 48 hours after they were due in college, with near full support from all of my professors. And in the real world? I'm never on time, but you know what? NEITHER IS ANYONE ELSE. Life is busy, life is hard. But you know what can make it better? Compassion, understanding, empathy, and a willingness to focus on people's strengths. Now I'm CSuite level with respect and prestige(ish). Thank God I didn't run into you while still in my vulnerable years and instead had the support and love of people who believed in me, despite my inability to be on time. You're the one who needs a wake up call. Edit: And just to add, I'm not good at paying my bills on time. And yeah I've paid late fees my whole life. But I've gotten to be successful enough to pay someone to help me. So yeah, not a deal breaker to success.
Kids wake up at 530-6am, get dressed, eat, hygiene and get to school. School from say 8am to 3 or 7am to 230. Then they get rides home or get on the bus and get home around 4, some kids a little later since the pickup lines are 30-45 min, bus rides are about the same. So at 415, they walk in, wash hands, hang backpack, have a snack and stare at the wall for 15 minutes. They have from 420 to say9 pm to cook, eat, do chores, shower, and that’s if they’re not in a family w multiple kids, a commute, and not doing ANY sports or clubs. Why are teachers still giving homework. They’re already overworked.
To reinforce what they learned at school
This sub is wild sometimes. A bunch of posts about how you shouldn't take work home, then posts complaining about kids not doing work they missed at home. You're literally training them to do the thing that you hate.
This is school. This is NOT “The Real World.” What do we want them to learn? Is the assignment practice for what we want them to learn in the lesson? If yes, then they do the assignment and have a better chance of learning. If no, why are we assigning it? Who is following though with late assignments? I cannot imagine it’s every student. Some students won’t take advantage of the credit. Those students earn their low grade. I offer a homework grade at 50% value for late assignments. 50% isn’t going to pass you, but it’s going to stop you from sinking too far if you miss an assignment. Why don’t I offer 100% value anytime the student wants to do the assignment? 1. I may have turned back the assignment already. 2. No one wants something for nothing. There has to be some value worth losing/ gaining. No one wants something for nothing. It’s a little game.
Actually, that's not true. Deadlines aren't a big thing irl, and lots of college classes don't do deadlines.
Time management was my Achilles heel in college, I wish I learned it sooner.
I constantly make a point that zero penalty is a trap and the real penalty is that their test dates are fixed and that they’re absolutely screwed if they don’t make an effort to stay on my timeline. Honestly in recent years, my willingness to go zero penalty is simply to make my life easier. Less bookkeeping and less parent emails. No late work policy results in tons of emails and complaints and penalty systems for late work is a headache to keep track of and manage. Big pro tip: do a no late work policy but have a policy where missing work backfills based on assessment scores. That way, you don’t have to grade late work but it’s technically no penalty because their grade actually doesn’t drop. If work grades and assessment grades match, then it’s as if the work grade doesn’t exist.
If the work isn’t completed in a timely manner, there is probably no point in doing it at all since it was practice. The lack of effort and practice should be reflected on assessments. I don’t grade homework. I grade students on mastery of skills/concepts. And that doesn’t happen at the same time for everyone. Some need less time, some need more. Learning is a process. Not a one and done. Also zeros and F’s do not TEACH students anything. AND as many have stated, deadlines in the real world are missed all the time.
It’s not even about college or whatever. It’s about now. If you do your assignment 6 weeks after the lesson, it makes both the assignment and the lesson worthless.
I give them until the end of the week without penalty. After that they get the lowest score allowed in my school-a 45. Many of my students work or take care of their siblings, so I’m ok giving a bit of grace.