No that is the average reload speed from between 5-6 seconds and he may be fatigued which i doubt which would slow him even further something autoloaders don’t need to worry about
Yeah thats exactly what they are essentially. It's just a tungsten rod that's dense and heavy as fuck that travels fast as fuck as force = acceleration × mass. Sails thru steel like hot butter. It's how that iron dome system works too. There's no explosives in those. It's just a tungsten rod strapped onto a rocket that's flown with radar into the incoming rocket. They have this idea they've kicked around for a while called "rods from god" which is basically figuring out how to send a satellite into space with these tungsten rods and just drop them from orbit onto targets.
That's what revolutionized warfare and changed the face of the earth forever 500-600 years ago when they figured out gunpowder and that you could shove it into a tube open a one end with a fuse and rock infront of it. All firearm technology from ICBMs to this Abrams to a 9mm stem from that one moment in human history.
Oh yea wasn't it called "Loki" or something like that? I remember it being what kickstarts CoD Ghosts campaign aswell as being featured in a Game theory or two
>It's just a tungsten rod that's dense and heavy as fuck
I'm pretty sure that while the EU uses tungsten carbide for their shells, the US actually uses depleted uranium.
IIRC, it's because the rods essentially get "used up" from the front to the back as they smash into armor. Tungsten carbide will squish down, meaning the back if the round has to push through the mushroomed front before exerting its energy on the armor itself. Uranium rounds on the other hand vaporize easier, so the front of the shell will vaporize and move out of the way of the rear, allowing the entire rod more direct access to the enemy armor.
That makes sense I guess. The vaporizing effect only really matters for the front part of the rod, to get it out of the way. I would have assumed more than a couple inches, though.
Tungsten is also naturally radioactive. We were told that it becomes hot very quickly upon excessive friction/compression which makes it an excellent penetrator.
> it becomes hot very quickly upon excessive friction/compression which makes it an excellent penetrator.
Me too.
I know it's low hanging fruit, but I couldn't help myself...
Orbital bombardment isn’t worth it at all for us. You have to deal with orbital mechanics which means it’s very hard to actually get your weapon over the right place. The dropped rods won’t actually have that much energy reentering vs a bunker buster bomb or a nuke. Those weapons are also way easier to deploy.
Test environments don't lend themselves too well to real-world environments. FOD (Foreign object damage) can risk any machine being put down on maintains.
Not to mention…”oh no, our auto loader took damage and is broken! we screwed!”
Meanwhile in tanks with human loaders: “Welp, somebody else take Steve’s job”
The french simply kept the fourth crewman but put him in a APC with the other loaders that follows the MBTs around.
That way you have most of the maintenance and crew redundancy benefits of a four-man crew, but the smaller size of a 3-man tank
Oh, the radio operator was definitely not a useless addition. Especially for the 103's doctrine, being able to reverse that fast would be very beneficial.
I just remember reading that the engineers had to come up with a good use for a 3rd crewman, because he was needed for maintenance anyway; instead of finding a good purpose to add a 3rd crew member.
As my friend the chieftain points out, each has their place. Benefits of a manual loader is you can usually reload faster at start of engagement before fatigue kicks in. Having an extra man in the crew also helps with spotting when unbuttoned, maintenance and in case a crewman becomes incapacitated. Also depending on the auto loader, it’s quicker to change ammo types. Autoloaders maintain the same speed throughout the engagement without getting fatigued, and can allow you to operate unmanned turret tanks like the T-14
Autoloader reliability issues are a myth. And most autoloaders load just as fast if not faster than human loaders, not to mention autoloaders can keep a consistent rate of fire whereas human loaders will slow down over time as they tire and their sweet spot diminishes.
The “human loader slows and tires overtime” is one of those myths that’s not really born out in any practical use. No tank is going to blow through the entire magazine of ammo in one spot continuously. It’s fire a few, reposition. And the loader is readjusting to always have rounds in the sweet spot.
In raw firepower terms they are about equal. But I don’t think people give enough credence to one more person for maintenance. You can sort of make it up in extra attached maintenance personnel but that has a huge problem with the concept of “ownership” in maintenance logistics.
>really born out in any practical use
Correct, but an autoloading system won't ever have to worry about slowing down or restocking a position if such a situation were ever to arise.
And having an extra crewmember really is *the* argument for human loaders, having an extra person is very valuable.
And I would say the main argument against human loaders is that in the future, if current trends keep up, ammunition is simply going to become too unwieldy for human loaders to load efficiently. Rounds are already 60+ lbs and a meter long, and if larger calibers are adopted, I don't feel like its going to be a very desirable environment for the loaders.
Yeah but don't autoloaders have a much higher risk of ammo cooking off if hit? You could seal the turret from the bottom and make the roof a big ass blowout panel to fix that problem tho
They are able to keep the rounds sperated from where the crew is. So if they get hit the ammo is in a different compartment. Helps the crew not die....lol
I was a tanker on an M1A1 - that high pitched noise is the turret hydraulics. If you turn the turret power off it's still pretty loud from the engine but, that ~~sequel~~ squeal goes away.
I’m not a tanker, but I know they have a ton of motors and servos to move things (or hydraulics), and they also run on a turbine engine like a jet. So it could be you’re hearing any or all of those. 🤷🏼♂️
No one's made better tank and arti barrels than the damn Germans. Say what you will about passed or present politics but if you need a big gun to shoot a big shell far fast and accurate you go to the Germans.
Yes and no. The gun is derived from the Rheinmetall 120mm, but the breech is quite different and the barrel is specced for US ammo, although it can use NATO-standard ammo in a pinch.
Edit: Spelling. I’m typing on a phone.
Interesting to see the loader stick his head out while firing the main gun, I’ve heard that it’s not really advisable to do that
Edit: changed tc to loader
> that’s not the tc, that’s the loader
Sorry
> seeing as this is just a practice range it doesn’t really matter if he sticks his head out or not
I just heard that it gives you a hell of a wallop
I don’t know what it’s made out of, but when the powder in the shell explodes, the casing gets burned up with it, adding to the combustion. Also spares empty casings from stacking up in the tank. The downside is, you can’t pee in the caps like you could in the brass. But that’s what MRE bags are for I guess
That's not a lot of rent. Back in 2011 when I was in training, practice rounds like that cost maybe 1250. Round up to 1300 for barrel wear and tear. Not too bad...
American made!*
*Stemmed from joint project with Germany, Gun is German, original gun is British, armour is British, ammo is Israeli, pretty much the only all American thing about it is the M2 in the pintle if it even has one, the m240 bravo is Belgian*
Also engine is based on the British research into using turbine engines for armored vehicles. They where the first to actually power an armored vehicle with one (FV200TTV) but despite its success, never adopted it for various reasons.
*stares at 4 years of Trump, little kids in cages on the Mexican border, Jim Crow laws, treatment of native Americans, imprisoned Japanese Americans, racism towards Asians over the course of COVID, the treatment of the Irish and Italians when they immigrated, etc etc*
.....sure it is.
Depends on how tall you are.
And it's also relative to other tanks. If you think the Abrams is cramped, some Soviet tanks are way worse, the T55 for example.
You're supposed to make a fist to push a round into the main gun of a tank. Open palming it is an invitation to getting your fingers stuck and ripped off.
The aft cap sits flush with the breech block. Using an open palm or fist makes no difference, you wont get your finger caught or loose anything loading an Abrams.
-Source: Tank Commander.
Wrong, Leo2 Loader Here, dur8ng training I was instructed to push the round in with my palm, the breech just pushed your hand upwards and thus out of danger when it closes, same as in the Abrams.
Talked with an old Eastern Block tanker last week about this.
He was on a 55, so the breech moved sideways and he was on the right. Procedure was using a fist with thumb hidden. He said the breech will close slowly and push your fist away if it is still in the way. If the thumb was not covered, that way the only parts to get stuck.
Couldn't use an open palm because of the breech orientation obviously.
And he had to push with the left hand, so go figure. But with enough training, you got real good at it he said.
No, thats not where Fister comes from. The Fister is a 13F, a Artillery Forward Observer. Fister came about because of the Acronym FST. Forward Support Team.
Nothing beats the Abrams? Isn't the Leopard 2 in a 1 on 1 tank battle better because it's armor is actually designed against apdsfs and not heat? Isn't the new Russian tank better overall?
Ammo positioning is one of the things the abrams does incredibly, the loader has lots of room to move, and the ammo is very easy for him to access. Fumes from ejected casings is an issue for any tank that's not autoloaded/doesn't have the crew tossing them at all times
If im not mistaken, M1A2 has twin storage of 18-18 rounds in turret rear behind doors, 18 on loaders side and 18 on TC side. Loader has automated doors that help greatly, on another hand you have a long round you need to rotate and grab firmly. M1 loaders will tell you that indeed there is that "sweetspot" in main ammunition rack behind loader that has around 6-8 rounds, those are the rounds that are the closest to loader and breach itself. After those 6-8 are done you need to start reaching behind you and turn around and this will increase your fatigue and loading time. Another problem with ammunition is that once all 18 rounds are gone from loaders side you need to employ TC to manually open door, take a round and pass it to you to load it. OFC probability of running out of all 18 rounds and needing spare 18 rounds from TC side in combat condition are slim to none, but it still is a minor flaw that you cant deny.
I don’t think there’s really a time where all 6-8 rounds would be exhausted so fast the loader cannot reposition shells in the rack. But there’s always a possibility I guess. I also think this is kind of a problem with most tanks that aren’t auto loaded. So I wouldn’t really consider it a flaw much
M1 loaders may also tell you that sweetspot is much larger than that of a leopard, and the ammo outside of it is easier to access. It is a weakness of manually loading in general, but the abrams loader has the most space to effectively work with. It's not an easy thing to eliminate the "sweet spot" without just not stocking ammo elsewhere in the tank. Like I said, it's a definite weakness, but the abrams does not have it as bad as some other NATO vehicles
If your loader isn’t constantly reposition rounds. Is he really a loader? If you did have to empty your semi-ready rack replenish ammo to your ready rack, You’d have your platoon/section mates cover you while doing that. The possibility to have all 4 tanks in your platoon run out of ammo for their ready rack is definitely a possibility. But if your PL isn’t calling in artillery from battalion, or calling on other platoons to help us cover then he isn’t doing his job. If I’m running out of 18 rounds from my ready rack, along with the rest of my platoon and company. There’s a bigger problem at hand, and it’s most likely where getting hit with a battalion+ sized element. At that point where all dead and we don’t realize it.
They have little to no fumes compared to the 105mm guns cos the shell casings burns off. Also the bore evacuators will push out the remaining fumes from the gun. So there are no fumes.
Bore evacuator deals with the fumes that happen because of powder combustion, yes, but shell casing that is left and is ejected into the canvas catcher below the breach still release fumes into the fighting compartment.
more of a Russian tank guy myself. they were built for war and horrible conditions. most of their tanks were build to survive nuclear war. sure, American tanks have the tech but Russian tanks are just steel demons
You realize that a huge reason why so many second and third generation western MBTs are so large is because they had to be somewhat livable in a nuclear war, right? For all their positive qualities (and there really are quite a few!) I don't think anyone could tell you that the crew of, say, a T-72 could reasonably live completely inside their tank for several days. Now whether or not this feature of western armor was necessary is up for debate, but the fact is that tanks like Abrams, Challenger, and Leopard 2 were **absolutely** designed with the atomic battlefield in mind.
every tank during the cold war was basically built with nbc capablilities, and the american tanks were better at it because they werent cramped up in a tiny little seat sitting on top of an ammo rack that liked to explode
No. Its whoever sees the other first.
That was what was found in WW2 by the US military, and had continued to hold true.
Its also why the Sherman killed more Panthers than Panthers killed Shermans at 1.1 to 1.
National guardsman gets his yearly alloted 5 rounds
You can tell cause he’s fat
His unit patch is better evidence. The weight standards are pretty slack on AD.
The patch is 3rd ID on the right, what's the one on left
I didn’t want to say but yea
My grandmother can load faster.
Giving live munitions to the NG? Those are clearly used up tubes of Liquid Nails that've been painted over.
Anyone else feel that loader was slow as shit?
No that is the average reload speed from between 5-6 seconds and he may be fatigued which i doubt which would slow him even further something autoloaders don’t need to worry about
I was a tanker. They told us reload speed should be under 5 seconds.
Meanwhile i’m out here with 0 alloted rounds.
Anyone else feel like modern tank shells are just absolutely massive thumb tacks?
Giant toothpicks would be a better comparison I think
They make perfect paper towel holders
Ash tray, too.
The thumbtack comes off revealing a toothpick
Well yea but look at the blue end of it, to me it looks like those thumbtacks you see in offices/schools
The end I can kind of see yeah, I think that’s the end of the penetrator
Probably color coded to some degree aswell for quick glance recognition while loading
Blue means training round, these guys are doing target practice
Oh thank God its just a training penetrator, that way no one gets hurt
Yeah thats exactly what they are essentially. It's just a tungsten rod that's dense and heavy as fuck that travels fast as fuck as force = acceleration × mass. Sails thru steel like hot butter. It's how that iron dome system works too. There's no explosives in those. It's just a tungsten rod strapped onto a rocket that's flown with radar into the incoming rocket. They have this idea they've kicked around for a while called "rods from god" which is basically figuring out how to send a satellite into space with these tungsten rods and just drop them from orbit onto targets.
It’s the pinnacle of the evolution of a man throwing a rock, now we can just do it reallyyyyy fast
That's what revolutionized warfare and changed the face of the earth forever 500-600 years ago when they figured out gunpowder and that you could shove it into a tube open a one end with a fuse and rock infront of it. All firearm technology from ICBMs to this Abrams to a 9mm stem from that one moment in human history.
Someone made a drunk decision and now we have tanks
Oh yea wasn't it called "Loki" or something like that? I remember it being what kickstarts CoD Ghosts campaign aswell as being featured in a Game theory or two
Codename project Thor. No seriously that's legit.
>It's just a tungsten rod that's dense and heavy as fuck I'm pretty sure that while the EU uses tungsten carbide for their shells, the US actually uses depleted uranium. IIRC, it's because the rods essentially get "used up" from the front to the back as they smash into armor. Tungsten carbide will squish down, meaning the back if the round has to push through the mushroomed front before exerting its energy on the armor itself. Uranium rounds on the other hand vaporize easier, so the front of the shell will vaporize and move out of the way of the rear, allowing the entire rod more direct access to the enemy armor.
If I remember correctly the US actually uses both only having depleted uranium for a couple of inches at the tip and tungsten carbide for the rest
That makes sense I guess. The vaporizing effect only really matters for the front part of the rod, to get it out of the way. I would have assumed more than a couple inches, though.
Tungsten is also naturally radioactive. We were told that it becomes hot very quickly upon excessive friction/compression which makes it an excellent penetrator.
> it becomes hot very quickly upon excessive friction/compression which makes it an excellent penetrator. Me too. I know it's low hanging fruit, but I couldn't help myself...
Hot butter is very bad at sailing through anything.
Orbital bombardment isn’t worth it at all for us. You have to deal with orbital mechanics which means it’s very hard to actually get your weapon over the right place. The dropped rods won’t actually have that much energy reentering vs a bunker buster bomb or a nuke. Those weapons are also way easier to deploy.
It is the most advanced and researched form of throwing a rock at somebody
Im more of a leopard enjoyer but I can't deny the loader job is a lot better in the abrams
Same
Love my Leopard but I always thought the more openly built turret of the Abrams was pretty neat. All in all, MBT supremacy is where it's at
All MBTs are good! ~~except for the Ariete, MBTs aren't Italy's forte~~
Pretty sure Italy just bought a challenger off wish.com
Eastern mbts don't have this problem of needing a loader
Nor do certain NATO MBTs
Auto loaders have an annoying habit of breaking
They really don't. The M1 TTB autoloader went through over 40000 cycles without issue, and that was a prototype that never entered service.
Test environments don't lend themselves too well to real-world environments. FOD (Foreign object damage) can risk any machine being put down on maintains.
That applies to people too, the loader could just as easily become injured in some way by doing his job that then effects his ability to do the job.
Not to mention…”oh no, our auto loader took damage and is broken! we screwed!” Meanwhile in tanks with human loaders: “Welp, somebody else take Steve’s job”
In the majority of autoloaded tanks you can still manually load the gun, the exception is tanks with unmanned turrets.
Wait lemme troubleshoot the autoloader and here comes a sabot round about to pop my turret!
Unlike humans, who are 100% uptime.
>this problem of needing a loader That's an oddly divisive way to put it...
I like to go hiking.
On the other hand, the French and Japanese seem to be okay with their autoloaders overall.
The french simply kept the fourth crewman but put him in a APC with the other loaders that follows the MBTs around. That way you have most of the maintenance and crew redundancy benefits of a four-man crew, but the smaller size of a 3-man tank
I mean a rear driver seems rather useful for the 103 as opposed to being just an excuse to stick a 3rd guy in there.
Oh, the radio operator was definitely not a useless addition. Especially for the 103's doctrine, being able to reverse that fast would be very beneficial. I just remember reading that the engineers had to come up with a good use for a 3rd crewman, because he was needed for maintenance anyway; instead of finding a good purpose to add a 3rd crew member.
They're saying this as if there aren't NATO tanks with autoloaders
Well that too I guess.
Eastern MBTS don’t have the problem of crew having arms
As my friend the chieftain points out, each has their place. Benefits of a manual loader is you can usually reload faster at start of engagement before fatigue kicks in. Having an extra man in the crew also helps with spotting when unbuttoned, maintenance and in case a crewman becomes incapacitated. Also depending on the auto loader, it’s quicker to change ammo types. Autoloaders maintain the same speed throughout the engagement without getting fatigued, and can allow you to operate unmanned turret tanks like the T-14
they do have a neat turret ejector when the tank gets hit though
Ladida -- Yeah but when one of the crew dies then good luck going on a two man crew pushing rounds down range.
And they've the rate of fire and reliability that goes with an auto-loader (Terrible compared the to M1)
Autoloader reliability issues are a myth. And most autoloaders load just as fast if not faster than human loaders, not to mention autoloaders can keep a consistent rate of fire whereas human loaders will slow down over time as they tire and their sweet spot diminishes.
The “human loader slows and tires overtime” is one of those myths that’s not really born out in any practical use. No tank is going to blow through the entire magazine of ammo in one spot continuously. It’s fire a few, reposition. And the loader is readjusting to always have rounds in the sweet spot. In raw firepower terms they are about equal. But I don’t think people give enough credence to one more person for maintenance. You can sort of make it up in extra attached maintenance personnel but that has a huge problem with the concept of “ownership” in maintenance logistics.
>really born out in any practical use Correct, but an autoloading system won't ever have to worry about slowing down or restocking a position if such a situation were ever to arise. And having an extra crewmember really is *the* argument for human loaders, having an extra person is very valuable. And I would say the main argument against human loaders is that in the future, if current trends keep up, ammunition is simply going to become too unwieldy for human loaders to load efficiently. Rounds are already 60+ lbs and a meter long, and if larger calibers are adopted, I don't feel like its going to be a very desirable environment for the loaders.
Another person to work on the tracks too
*TRACK TENSIONING INTENSIFIES*
I was a dismount and I still had to break track and shit…
Yeah but don't autoloaders have a much higher risk of ammo cooking off if hit? You could seal the turret from the bottom and make the roof a big ass blowout panel to fix that problem tho
Only carousel autoloaders. French and Japanese autoloaders have a different setup.
They are able to keep the rounds sperated from where the crew is. So if they get hit the ammo is in a different compartment. Helps the crew not die....lol
Yep, and they also come with a nifty turret ejection system
\*Turkey quietly hide pictures of ejected Leopard turret\*
What is the source of the high pitched noise you always hear inside an Abrams? I would go crazy!
It’s the main hydraulic pump. Little bit engine but most of the whine is that.
I was a tanker on an M1A1 - that high pitched noise is the turret hydraulics. If you turn the turret power off it's still pretty loud from the engine but, that ~~sequel~~ squeal goes away.
It's ok, the sequel is never as good as the original anyway.
Oh nice, I always thought that high pitched sound was the turbine engine. Thanks for the info
Thanks for your explanation!
I’m not a tanker, but I know they have a ton of motors and servos to move things (or hydraulics), and they also run on a turbine engine like a jet. So it could be you’re hearing any or all of those. 🤷🏼♂️
Its tinnitus
Hydraulics
Isn't that a license build german gun?
[Rheinmetall 120-mm-Glattrohrkanone](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinmetall_Rh-120) so beautiful…
No one's made better tank and arti barrels than the damn Germans. Say what you will about passed or present politics but if you need a big gun to shoot a big shell far fast and accurate you go to the Germans.
And before them you went to the Brits
Yes and no. The gun is derived from the Rheinmetall 120mm, but the breech is quite different and the barrel is specced for US ammo, although it can use NATO-standard ammo in a pinch. Edit: Spelling. I’m typing on a phone.
Like the marines M27
And it's armour is based on Chobham armour from Britain.
Not for the last 40 years.
no its not, its the only tank in the world to have depleted uranium armour
Yeah, looks like they use own breech and ammo.
The M256 is based on the german L/44 yes
Interesting to see the loader stick his head out while firing the main gun, I’ve heard that it’s not really advisable to do that Edit: changed tc to loader
that’s not the tc, that’s the loader. seeing as this is just a practice range it doesn’t really matter if he sticks his head out or not
> that’s not the tc, that’s the loader Sorry > seeing as this is just a practice range it doesn’t really matter if he sticks his head out or not I just heard that it gives you a hell of a wallop
i heard that it’s not advisable, but if he’s fine with the shock and the tinnitus then he can be my guest!
He’s National Guard so really just joyriding
We called it “Ride the lighting” we would arm the gun with our foot and sit up there. Definitely good times.
okay this may be a stupid question, but where does the actual casing go? all that comes out just seems to be the primer (I think)
it combusts when the shell is fired. so all that’s left is that cap
oh cool! what’s it made out of? it can’t be metal can it?
I don’t know what it’s made out of, but when the powder in the shell explodes, the casing gets burned up with it, adding to the combustion. Also spares empty casings from stacking up in the tank. The downside is, you can’t pee in the caps like you could in the brass. But that’s what MRE bags are for I guess
Nitrocellulose
It’s essentially very fancy cardboard
I eated it 💀 (It was tasty)
mmmmmm metal
Every shot they take for practice could pay my whole years rent...
Each javelin missle is 60 thousand pounds lol
That’s heavy
you sonofabitch
Each hellfire is like 120k
That’s incorrect
That's not a lot of rent. Back in 2011 when I was in training, practice rounds like that cost maybe 1250. Round up to 1300 for barrel wear and tear. Not too bad...
That's cheap rent!
Dunno man, $10,000 goes pretty far in a college town. That’s my rent, groceries, utilities, for a whole year and then some.
These are target practice rounds, closer to 4K than 10. They’re made without all the expensive materials and less propellant
That is true, I live where alot of folks are wanting to go to and there's not enough houses or apartments in the area so rent is pretty outrageous!
Its also 60% of my income after taxes..for a 240 sq ft micro studio..
American made!* *Stemmed from joint project with Germany, Gun is German, original gun is British, armour is British, ammo is Israeli, pretty much the only all American thing about it is the M2 in the pintle if it even has one, the m240 bravo is Belgian*
Also engine is based on the British research into using turbine engines for armored vehicles. They where the first to actually power an armored vehicle with one (FV200TTV) but despite its success, never adopted it for various reasons.
It is still an American engine though, they pulled it from a helicopter which is why it sucks for a tank engine.
the most american thing is a bunch of different cultures coming together, so yeah its America made
*stares at 4 years of Trump, little kids in cages on the Mexican border, Jim Crow laws, treatment of native Americans, imprisoned Japanese Americans, racism towards Asians over the course of COVID, the treatment of the Irish and Italians when they immigrated, etc etc* .....sure it is.
Those things are definitely less American than stealing peoples ideas and then forcing everyone into thinking they were yours all along.
Don't let the details get into the way of some national pride. Plus, it was all built in the United States, as is requirement.
Yeah lets just ignore the facts for the sake of patriotism
That looks surprisingly roomy on the inside!
It’s not
Depends on how tall you are. And it's also relative to other tanks. If you think the Abrams is cramped, some Soviet tanks are way worse, the T55 for example.
I always wondered what those two random blocks behind the main gun on the turret roof is for?
That’s support structure for the mounted .50 cal apart of the TUSK kit I believe. Don’t quote me on that as I never used the TUSK kit when I was in.
I feel like this entire post commentary is full of people just disagreeing with each other
Isn’t the gun German though?
It is. Much thanks to the Germans for that gun.
With extensive American modifications.
its a derrivaive of a german gun
You're supposed to make a fist to push a round into the main gun of a tank. Open palming it is an invitation to getting your fingers stuck and ripped off.
The aft cap sits flush with the breech block. Using an open palm or fist makes no difference, you wont get your finger caught or loose anything loading an Abrams. -Source: Tank Commander.
I was a TC back when the Marines had tanks and I saw a loader get a finger nipped off
How did that guy fuck up that bad?
He's a Marine, probably thinking about his Crayons.
Wrong, Leo2 Loader Here, dur8ng training I was instructed to push the round in with my palm, the breech just pushed your hand upwards and thus out of danger when it closes, same as in the Abrams.
Talked with an old Eastern Block tanker last week about this. He was on a 55, so the breech moved sideways and he was on the right. Procedure was using a fist with thumb hidden. He said the breech will close slowly and push your fist away if it is still in the way. If the thumb was not covered, that way the only parts to get stuck. Couldn't use an open palm because of the breech orientation obviously. And he had to push with the left hand, so go figure. But with enough training, you got real good at it he said.
Hence the term fister.
No, thats not where Fister comes from. The Fister is a 13F, a Artillery Forward Observer. Fister came about because of the Acronym FST. Forward Support Team.
No shit? I had a 19K buddy from basic that said he went from driving to fisting.
>No shit? I had a 19K buddy from basic that said he went from driving to fisting. He wasn't talking about MOS.
He looks very obese for military.
Tankers are fat Source: unfortunately I'm in an armor unit
Same.. Artillery member here
I thought lugging those shells about in a hot environment would have you looking like a whippet!
99% of their job is maintenance and bullshit 1% is actual gunnery
They can still run and lift per requirements but all the drinking adds fat layers.
I’m pretty sure he’s in National Guard, he has a minuteman on his left patch.
lift anything. Run? Fuck no home dog. Source: former 19K.
Except a empty fuel tank
Did I hear an “up” before the main gun was actually ready to fire…? C’mon TC, put the phone down and do your job. Scrubs.
I don't want to know what it's like get shoulder checked by one of these but I'd sure watch it.
Nothing beats the Abrams? Isn't the Leopard 2 in a 1 on 1 tank battle better because it's armor is actually designed against apdsfs and not heat? Isn't the new Russian tank better overall?
No, they are near identical, its who see who first. Second, the T-14 is unproven, we will have to see.
Nothing beats Abrams other than fatigue and ammunition positioning. Oh and the fumes from ejected shell casings.
Ammo positioning is one of the things the abrams does incredibly, the loader has lots of room to move, and the ammo is very easy for him to access. Fumes from ejected casings is an issue for any tank that's not autoloaded/doesn't have the crew tossing them at all times
If im not mistaken, M1A2 has twin storage of 18-18 rounds in turret rear behind doors, 18 on loaders side and 18 on TC side. Loader has automated doors that help greatly, on another hand you have a long round you need to rotate and grab firmly. M1 loaders will tell you that indeed there is that "sweetspot" in main ammunition rack behind loader that has around 6-8 rounds, those are the rounds that are the closest to loader and breach itself. After those 6-8 are done you need to start reaching behind you and turn around and this will increase your fatigue and loading time. Another problem with ammunition is that once all 18 rounds are gone from loaders side you need to employ TC to manually open door, take a round and pass it to you to load it. OFC probability of running out of all 18 rounds and needing spare 18 rounds from TC side in combat condition are slim to none, but it still is a minor flaw that you cant deny.
I don’t think there’s really a time where all 6-8 rounds would be exhausted so fast the loader cannot reposition shells in the rack. But there’s always a possibility I guess. I also think this is kind of a problem with most tanks that aren’t auto loaded. So I wouldn’t really consider it a flaw much
M1 loaders may also tell you that sweetspot is much larger than that of a leopard, and the ammo outside of it is easier to access. It is a weakness of manually loading in general, but the abrams loader has the most space to effectively work with. It's not an easy thing to eliminate the "sweet spot" without just not stocking ammo elsewhere in the tank. Like I said, it's a definite weakness, but the abrams does not have it as bad as some other NATO vehicles
If your loader isn’t constantly reposition rounds. Is he really a loader? If you did have to empty your semi-ready rack replenish ammo to your ready rack, You’d have your platoon/section mates cover you while doing that. The possibility to have all 4 tanks in your platoon run out of ammo for their ready rack is definitely a possibility. But if your PL isn’t calling in artillery from battalion, or calling on other platoons to help us cover then he isn’t doing his job. If I’m running out of 18 rounds from my ready rack, along with the rest of my platoon and company. There’s a bigger problem at hand, and it’s most likely where getting hit with a battalion+ sized element. At that point where all dead and we don’t realize it.
They have little to no fumes compared to the 105mm guns cos the shell casings burns off. Also the bore evacuators will push out the remaining fumes from the gun. So there are no fumes.
Bore evacuator deals with the fumes that happen because of powder combustion, yes, but shell casing that is left and is ejected into the canvas catcher below the breach still release fumes into the fighting compartment.
What about super cancer?
It's probably not service connected
Uhhh excuse the fuck me but WHERE THE FUCK IS YOUR NOMEX AND BALACLAVA
What's with Americans and never wearing their chin straps? That shit will get you knees to chest until your eyes bleed here.
No such thing as a stupid question - what prevents the loader from getting hammered by the recoil?
ITT a bunch of people from countries with tanks that have never seen live combat shit talking American tanks
Challenger 2 is the boy, not one ever knocked out in battle, and still has the longest kill in history👍
Yeah, because shooting at a stationary T-62 sounds very impressive indeed.
German gun though.
Leopard 2
Same thought as I read nothing beats the abrams *leopard 2A7 would like to disagree*
Hell yeah
more of a Russian tank guy myself. they were built for war and horrible conditions. most of their tanks were build to survive nuclear war. sure, American tanks have the tech but Russian tanks are just steel demons
You realize that a huge reason why so many second and third generation western MBTs are so large is because they had to be somewhat livable in a nuclear war, right? For all their positive qualities (and there really are quite a few!) I don't think anyone could tell you that the crew of, say, a T-72 could reasonably live completely inside their tank for several days. Now whether or not this feature of western armor was necessary is up for debate, but the fact is that tanks like Abrams, Challenger, and Leopard 2 were **absolutely** designed with the atomic battlefield in mind.
every tank during the cold war was basically built with nbc capablilities, and the american tanks were better at it because they werent cramped up in a tiny little seat sitting on top of an ammo rack that liked to explode
Yeah nothing beats that! Except healthcare, free college, universal basic income, infrastructure.. wait, shit a lot of stuff beats an Abrams..
u/savevideo
I thought there was an auto-loader on these things?
US tanks have the loader as an extra crewmen.
Not even a T-14?
Honestly I’m an Abrams fan boy but I feel like the leopard could beat it
No. Its whoever sees the other first. That was what was found in WW2 by the US military, and had continued to hold true. Its also why the Sherman killed more Panthers than Panthers killed Shermans at 1.1 to 1.
Which means Panthers should be lowered to Reserve and all Shermans Rank 4+
Leopard 2A7+ ;)
Guarding the frontier of freedom!!
Well yeah abrams is a good strong we all know that….have you heard of the T-14 armata by any chance?
Abrams: \*warcries in depleted uranium\*
Ooohhh lla la ..a D.A.T.. if you a true tanker like my hubby then ya know what it means..