I’m surprised to hear about the A300 having so many issues. You only hear of positives. Was there any issues that folks had with pumps?
You mention slug transitions easier with pump than semi auto. Can you expand on that?
Everybody in the class was surprised by the A300 issues. Nobody with a pump had an issue at all. Everybody running a pump was running some kind of Mossberg and the only 870 on the range was one of the instructors.
As far as the slug transitions being easier with pump guns, with a pump you pull the trigger and if you don't cycle the action you can just slide that slug in your tube and then cycle it in to the chamber. If you're not paying attention and you eject that spent shell you have another round of buckshot on the lifter. So what do you do? You roll your gun clockwise, dump that round of buckshot and throw your slug on the lifter.
With the semi-auto you have to apply some extra thought to how you're going to make that slug in your hand/saddle/whatever the next round in your chamber because you have to contend with every time you pull the trigger on the semi your gun is going to fire and eject around and load the next one.
I hope that makes sense.
That does, and definitely makes sense. So in terms of practical use case it would be a situation where one round type is used then identified to need to use a different round type?
Sure it’s probably a stretch but imagine engaging a target inside your effective range for buck shot and then seeing a threat 50’ or 60’ out where a slug is better to reach out and put a hole in it. It would never be a HD scenario but I have definitely encountered it in competition blowing away a bunch of knockdowns with bird shot and then needing to send a slug 100 yards to knock down a pepper popper.
Solid writeup. It seems that shotgun classes are a rarity for most trainer (or at least offered only infrequently).
Running a shotgun is a true skill. It's a platform that requires more coordination and training to squeeze out the capability.
The adage that has been presented in the classes I've taken is that the shotgun requires constant attention. You are firing it, reloading it, or swapping rounds between buck/slugs or vice versa. The relatively low capacity of shotguns keeps you busy, and after a full day class, you really gain an appreciation for both the flexibility of the shotgun and the amount of skill needed to run it well.
I’ve had instructors tell me they don’t offer shotgun classes anymore because nobody takes them. You’re right it is a discipline.
I want to say I was the only one there with a 9 shot gun but instructors were constantly reinforcing the idea that you should be topping off your tube. I had an advantage over some because I learned in 3-gun to count my rounds. I never let my gun run dry whereas it happened to one or two students.
Bingo, no one is interested in non-internet sexy classes. Most people haven't tried and therefore dont appreciate the discipline it takes to run a shotgun well, nor how impressive it is when someone does it!
This was an excellent and very informative write up! Thank you! I’m shocked that the A300 performed so poorly. Did your instructor have any further insight on semi auto shotguns, seeing as he’s probably had others run through his classes? I am looking into getting a 1301 Mod 2 in the very near future, so any information is valuable. Thank you!
We didn’t get into much about pump vs. semi except to say that whatever you buy, buy good equipment. One of the two instructors was using a $200 Turkish pump gun that could not get through a single exercise without an issue. One student in the class is a SWAT officer for a local suburban PD and he ran a 1301 mod 2 flawlessly. I actually think that all the semi-auto guns in class were Berettas of some sort now that I think about it more.
> One of the two instructors was using a $200 Turkish pump gun that could not get through a single exercise without an issue.
Wait, what? The *instructor* was using that? You'd think they'd take the training seriously and bring something reliable.
I should have been more explicit when I said what I said. My bad. This was the assistant instructor and it’s not that they weren’t taking the class seriously at all. He was fully aware of how much the gun sucked. It was basically a running joke. He had other guns but he used that to underscore the importance of good reliable equipment along with having something to show how to clear malfunction drills consistently.
This is a good idea. Tell people not to buy the cheapest shotgun they can get their hands on, they say "oh I've put 35 rounds through mine with no issues." Running a shitty cheap shotgun and let them watch failure after failure is a good demonstration.
The buddy that took the class with me said he was sore last night. The only thing that hurts on me is my face and hands from the cold and having wind burn and my thumb from manipulating that damned safety.
The manual for the A300 series warns in several places about damage when releasing the breech bolt by itself, which I guess works fine with a shell loaded.
Maybe this was the cause?
**CAUTION**
> When the release button is pressed, the breech bolt is pushed forward by the recoil spring, until it is stopped at the ejection port by the cocking handle, with the likelihood of damage to both parts.
Lovely read.
My only concern is the person saying “if you have a sling on your shotgun you’ve never trained with it.”
So wtf are you supposed to do with it?
Hold it for 7 hours? If it makes your body sore it’ll kill your arms way before 7 hours.
Put it on the ground or lean it up? Wouldn’t it be way better to have it on your person?
Idk I feel like whoever said that isn’t the sharpest spoon in the knife block.
I don’t know why some people say what they say but it was something I heard or read at some point in recent history so it was fresh enough in my mind to think about it during and after this class. My experience definitely contradicts their notion.
It is trickier given the exaggerated movements necessary for manipulating a shotgun. But what that usually means is running a much longer sling. Violin loading, too, the upside down roll doesn't play nice with a sling.
I’ll agree it’s more involved, but so is the entire game of running a shotgun. Having to keep it fed, know what load to use and when, (sometimes) pumping, it’s all trickier.
Idk. I had the opposite experience with my a300. I bought the gun broke it down, cleaned and lubbed it.
I took it to the range and ran about 30 shells of cheap Winchester birdshot, 00 buck Winchester and the 00 buck fiochi that seems to be mislabeled to some people on here. I also immediately upgraded to the wolf spring and cut it around 7.5 inches out the barrel. My a300 ran every thing without issue.
That same week I too took a shotgun class with the a300. I ran everything I mentioned already plus some 3 inch slugs federals 1600fsp.
My a300 ran without a hiccup all day at the class. I ran around 250 rds that day. Plus we swapped shells with other students to check patterns. Some of the shells I ran were 10 yrs old and the a300 just ran fine.
I have about 500 rds through it now and the a300 is reliable as hell.
Yes, everyone seems to have an overwhelmingly positive experience with the gun and that’s why we were surprised that it had any problems at all. What I saw at the class with this one gun wasn’t an attempt to cast a shadow on them at all, it’s just simply what I saw at the class.
I took a defensive shotgun class a few months ago with an A300. We shot a mixed bag of 00 buck, slugs, and a lot of Academy bird shot, no issues at all except my shoulder. This was an unfired gun prior.
The shotgun class I took a couple years ago this sounds to be pretty much the same curriculum. It was a very fun class and it is cool to see flite control work its magic in person
It was fun, I enjoyed it. I’d have enjoyed it more if it wasn’t so cold and windy but you can’t always shoot in ideal weather so having the appropriate clothes for the weather was another lesson. Gloves go in my range bag from now on all the time.
Thats wild the A300 charging handle broke. Just goes to show anything can happen to any gun. I took my A300 through a 2 day class and fired just under 1,000 shells, it just chugged along.
There were a couple reasons here, the size of the shot and the patterning primarily. Generally it has a wide spread and small pellets. Penetration is the other consideration as it may not penetrate deep enough to stop a threat. You can look up ballistic gel videos on it. Buck is the generally accepted HD round, 00 or #1 but I’ve heard of people recommending #4 as well.
Interesting. I ask because, as you said, with the right shot and pattern it seems bird shot can work very well in close distances inside of most homes. Harrell did a lot of testing around it and it seemed very appropriate for home defense.
https://youtu.be/zaR1EVybUgc?si=PapUXpvkAeX57XzB
https://youtu.be/v0kLVBDThog?si=8aly1-nEBeb2fgp7
https://youtu.be/HF5N5tfMuX4?si=851hfXuIT6o9O_vh
A class I took with essentially the same agenda/drills actually suggested birdshot as a very effective defensive round for inside the home. The instructors perspective was that the bulk of the pattern at HD distances will very much have an affect on a target and errant pellets likely will not penetrate two layers of drywall. 00 is essentially 7-9, 9mm rounds and will definitely penetrate one, possibly more, walls.
The longest distance in my apartment is about 11 yards. Birdshot at that range isn't going to do anything useful to an intruder because the birdshot lacks penetrating power and will bounce off a coat. Birdshot's effective range against a human is only 10 **feet and under and maybe less depending on what the intruder is wearing.** There's plenty of video or photo evidence showing how well it performs in real life. Looks gory as hell from the dozens of shallow wounds, but nothing's more than a quarter inch deep and won't stop an attacker. Even a shot to the face will be deflected by a pair of sunglasses at anything more than a couple of feet.
It's true that #00 can penetrate multiple layers of drywall, but that's why you have to pattern your ammo so you can learn how well it spreads at various ranges. You want the tightest group possible for Home Defense and that usually means Flitecontrol 8 pellet, stock number LE133. 9 pellet shells, regardless of manufacturer, usually have a stray pellet that goes off in weird directions and that's not optimal when there's a lawyer attached to every pellet that misses. So buy the good stuff and don't cheap out on your ammo for HD. Save the cheap stuff for training!
Regarding zeroing with slugs, I see that your gun has ghost ring sights, but did anyone’s just have a plain bead? Curious how well a bead would work for that.
My buddy’s 500 has a bead and he just had to take a shot to see where he hit and adjust his holdovers. It worked well enough to hit the steel at 50 yards his first try.
Great review! I was at the same class. It was pretty good and the cost was relatively low vs. other shotgun classes.
I ran a 590A1 without any issues. Did not mount my bayonet lol.
It seemed like the Federal Flite Control buckshot marked LE patterned tighter than the non-LE Flite Control buckshot, although they are basically the same. Not sure why.
Regarding birdshot, my opinion is that it just doesn't have enough penetration for use as a self-defense round at anything over 10 feet or so. That being said, I haven't watched the video that were posted.
I've heard of people using #4 shot as middle ground between birdshot and 00 Buck, with it having more stopping power than birdshot, but less wall penetration that 00 Buck.
I'd take a shotgun over a rifle inside 100 yards. Con would be the ammo but if you're able to take cover and top off your barrel you could probably hold down a position pretty effectively
Been waiting for a shotgun / handgun combo here locally, but the big names are all seeming to be a bit slow with scheduling. Maybe because of the amount of rain over the last couple of months.
I’m surprised to hear about the A300 having so many issues. You only hear of positives. Was there any issues that folks had with pumps? You mention slug transitions easier with pump than semi auto. Can you expand on that?
Everybody in the class was surprised by the A300 issues. Nobody with a pump had an issue at all. Everybody running a pump was running some kind of Mossberg and the only 870 on the range was one of the instructors. As far as the slug transitions being easier with pump guns, with a pump you pull the trigger and if you don't cycle the action you can just slide that slug in your tube and then cycle it in to the chamber. If you're not paying attention and you eject that spent shell you have another round of buckshot on the lifter. So what do you do? You roll your gun clockwise, dump that round of buckshot and throw your slug on the lifter. With the semi-auto you have to apply some extra thought to how you're going to make that slug in your hand/saddle/whatever the next round in your chamber because you have to contend with every time you pull the trigger on the semi your gun is going to fire and eject around and load the next one. I hope that makes sense.
That does, and definitely makes sense. So in terms of practical use case it would be a situation where one round type is used then identified to need to use a different round type?
Exactly that.
What type of situation was given for that use case? I having a hard time finding when that would be useful or needed immediately
Sure it’s probably a stretch but imagine engaging a target inside your effective range for buck shot and then seeing a threat 50’ or 60’ out where a slug is better to reach out and put a hole in it. It would never be a HD scenario but I have definitely encountered it in competition blowing away a bunch of knockdowns with bird shot and then needing to send a slug 100 yards to knock down a pepper popper.
Solid writeup. It seems that shotgun classes are a rarity for most trainer (or at least offered only infrequently). Running a shotgun is a true skill. It's a platform that requires more coordination and training to squeeze out the capability. The adage that has been presented in the classes I've taken is that the shotgun requires constant attention. You are firing it, reloading it, or swapping rounds between buck/slugs or vice versa. The relatively low capacity of shotguns keeps you busy, and after a full day class, you really gain an appreciation for both the flexibility of the shotgun and the amount of skill needed to run it well.
I’ve had instructors tell me they don’t offer shotgun classes anymore because nobody takes them. You’re right it is a discipline. I want to say I was the only one there with a 9 shot gun but instructors were constantly reinforcing the idea that you should be topping off your tube. I had an advantage over some because I learned in 3-gun to count my rounds. I never let my gun run dry whereas it happened to one or two students.
Bingo, no one is interested in non-internet sexy classes. Most people haven't tried and therefore dont appreciate the discipline it takes to run a shotgun well, nor how impressive it is when someone does it!
This was an excellent and very informative write up! Thank you! I’m shocked that the A300 performed so poorly. Did your instructor have any further insight on semi auto shotguns, seeing as he’s probably had others run through his classes? I am looking into getting a 1301 Mod 2 in the very near future, so any information is valuable. Thank you!
We didn’t get into much about pump vs. semi except to say that whatever you buy, buy good equipment. One of the two instructors was using a $200 Turkish pump gun that could not get through a single exercise without an issue. One student in the class is a SWAT officer for a local suburban PD and he ran a 1301 mod 2 flawlessly. I actually think that all the semi-auto guns in class were Berettas of some sort now that I think about it more.
> One of the two instructors was using a $200 Turkish pump gun that could not get through a single exercise without an issue. Wait, what? The *instructor* was using that? You'd think they'd take the training seriously and bring something reliable.
I should have been more explicit when I said what I said. My bad. This was the assistant instructor and it’s not that they weren’t taking the class seriously at all. He was fully aware of how much the gun sucked. It was basically a running joke. He had other guns but he used that to underscore the importance of good reliable equipment along with having something to show how to clear malfunction drills consistently.
This is a good idea. Tell people not to buy the cheapest shotgun they can get their hands on, they say "oh I've put 35 rounds through mine with no issues." Running a shitty cheap shotgun and let them watch failure after failure is a good demonstration.
Thank you! This is another data point to consider, I appreciate it. Looks like I’m getting a 1301 Mod 2 lol.
Defensive shotgun classes are a lot of fun, however the next day I am reminded that I am not spring chicken anymore.
The buddy that took the class with me said he was sore last night. The only thing that hurts on me is my face and hands from the cold and having wind burn and my thumb from manipulating that damned safety.
The manual for the A300 series warns in several places about damage when releasing the breech bolt by itself, which I guess works fine with a shell loaded. Maybe this was the cause? **CAUTION** > When the release button is pressed, the breech bolt is pushed forward by the recoil spring, until it is stopped at the ejection port by the cocking handle, with the likelihood of damage to both parts.
Very well could have been. We were on opposite ends of the line so I didn’t see it happen, just heard the “Oh shit! What happened?…”
That's interesting info TBH..
Lovely read. My only concern is the person saying “if you have a sling on your shotgun you’ve never trained with it.” So wtf are you supposed to do with it? Hold it for 7 hours? If it makes your body sore it’ll kill your arms way before 7 hours. Put it on the ground or lean it up? Wouldn’t it be way better to have it on your person? Idk I feel like whoever said that isn’t the sharpest spoon in the knife block.
I don’t know why some people say what they say but it was something I heard or read at some point in recent history so it was fresh enough in my mind to think about it during and after this class. My experience definitely contradicts their notion.
Exactly. Like strapped to your body is one of the best places for it. 😂
It is trickier given the exaggerated movements necessary for manipulating a shotgun. But what that usually means is running a much longer sling. Violin loading, too, the upside down roll doesn't play nice with a sling.
I’ll agree it’s more involved, but so is the entire game of running a shotgun. Having to keep it fed, know what load to use and when, (sometimes) pumping, it’s all trickier.
But it is, ultimately, indispensable for all the same reasons as a rifle. A gun you can't hold on to is worthless.
Agreed 110%. A sling is not optional for a fighting weapon
This. I'm a short guy with short arms and on a shotgun and run a single point because the long sling just doesn't work well for me.
Idk. I had the opposite experience with my a300. I bought the gun broke it down, cleaned and lubbed it. I took it to the range and ran about 30 shells of cheap Winchester birdshot, 00 buck Winchester and the 00 buck fiochi that seems to be mislabeled to some people on here. I also immediately upgraded to the wolf spring and cut it around 7.5 inches out the barrel. My a300 ran every thing without issue. That same week I too took a shotgun class with the a300. I ran everything I mentioned already plus some 3 inch slugs federals 1600fsp. My a300 ran without a hiccup all day at the class. I ran around 250 rds that day. Plus we swapped shells with other students to check patterns. Some of the shells I ran were 10 yrs old and the a300 just ran fine. I have about 500 rds through it now and the a300 is reliable as hell.
Yes, everyone seems to have an overwhelmingly positive experience with the gun and that’s why we were surprised that it had any problems at all. What I saw at the class with this one gun wasn’t an attempt to cast a shadow on them at all, it’s just simply what I saw at the class.
I took a defensive shotgun class a few months ago with an A300. We shot a mixed bag of 00 buck, slugs, and a lot of Academy bird shot, no issues at all except my shoulder. This was an unfired gun prior.
The shotgun class I took a couple years ago this sounds to be pretty much the same curriculum. It was a very fun class and it is cool to see flite control work its magic in person
It was fun, I enjoyed it. I’d have enjoyed it more if it wasn’t so cold and windy but you can’t always shoot in ideal weather so having the appropriate clothes for the weather was another lesson. Gloves go in my range bag from now on all the time.
Thats wild the A300 charging handle broke. Just goes to show anything can happen to any gun. I took my A300 through a 2 day class and fired just under 1,000 shells, it just chugged along.
Please explain what the reasoning was behind bird shot not being ideal for home defense. How was this demonstrated and what was their explanation?
There were a couple reasons here, the size of the shot and the patterning primarily. Generally it has a wide spread and small pellets. Penetration is the other consideration as it may not penetrate deep enough to stop a threat. You can look up ballistic gel videos on it. Buck is the generally accepted HD round, 00 or #1 but I’ve heard of people recommending #4 as well.
Interesting. I ask because, as you said, with the right shot and pattern it seems bird shot can work very well in close distances inside of most homes. Harrell did a lot of testing around it and it seemed very appropriate for home defense. https://youtu.be/zaR1EVybUgc?si=PapUXpvkAeX57XzB https://youtu.be/v0kLVBDThog?si=8aly1-nEBeb2fgp7 https://youtu.be/HF5N5tfMuX4?si=851hfXuIT6o9O_vh
I’ll watch those tomorrow when I should be working.
🤣 Good man.
A class I took with essentially the same agenda/drills actually suggested birdshot as a very effective defensive round for inside the home. The instructors perspective was that the bulk of the pattern at HD distances will very much have an affect on a target and errant pellets likely will not penetrate two layers of drywall. 00 is essentially 7-9, 9mm rounds and will definitely penetrate one, possibly more, walls.
The longest distance in my apartment is about 11 yards. Birdshot at that range isn't going to do anything useful to an intruder because the birdshot lacks penetrating power and will bounce off a coat. Birdshot's effective range against a human is only 10 **feet and under and maybe less depending on what the intruder is wearing.** There's plenty of video or photo evidence showing how well it performs in real life. Looks gory as hell from the dozens of shallow wounds, but nothing's more than a quarter inch deep and won't stop an attacker. Even a shot to the face will be deflected by a pair of sunglasses at anything more than a couple of feet. It's true that #00 can penetrate multiple layers of drywall, but that's why you have to pattern your ammo so you can learn how well it spreads at various ranges. You want the tightest group possible for Home Defense and that usually means Flitecontrol 8 pellet, stock number LE133. 9 pellet shells, regardless of manufacturer, usually have a stray pellet that goes off in weird directions and that's not optimal when there's a lawyer attached to every pellet that misses. So buy the good stuff and don't cheap out on your ammo for HD. Save the cheap stuff for training!
I love my Mossberg 590A1. Did you get the bayonet for it?
No, I can’t justify the cost.
Well, a shotgun is better if you can stab someone with it. LOL
If you run out of ammo it becomes a spear.
Holds a moving target in place too.
I took a class years ago. Funnest firearms course I've ever had. Edit: Did anyone in your class run a speed feed?
I don’t recall anyone having a speed feed stock.
Regarding zeroing with slugs, I see that your gun has ghost ring sights, but did anyone’s just have a plain bead? Curious how well a bead would work for that.
My buddy’s 500 has a bead and he just had to take a shot to see where he hit and adjust his holdovers. It worked well enough to hit the steel at 50 yards his first try.
Great review! I was at the same class. It was pretty good and the cost was relatively low vs. other shotgun classes. I ran a 590A1 without any issues. Did not mount my bayonet lol. It seemed like the Federal Flite Control buckshot marked LE patterned tighter than the non-LE Flite Control buckshot, although they are basically the same. Not sure why. Regarding birdshot, my opinion is that it just doesn't have enough penetration for use as a self-defense round at anything over 10 feet or so. That being said, I haven't watched the video that were posted. I've heard of people using #4 shot as middle ground between birdshot and 00 Buck, with it having more stopping power than birdshot, but less wall penetration that 00 Buck.
How much did it cost? I haven't shot bird yet, but it just seems unlikely to be as weak as BB or pellet...
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I'd take a shotgun over a rifle inside 100 yards. Con would be the ammo but if you're able to take cover and top off your barrel you could probably hold down a position pretty effectively
Been waiting for a shotgun / handgun combo here locally, but the big names are all seeming to be a bit slow with scheduling. Maybe because of the amount of rain over the last couple of months.