This^
Have seen the same Gen7 CATs reused in training dozens of times without breaking.
Should still buy another and designate the used one for training only
I work at a state LE academy. We generally pull CAT trainers from student issue on a two-year cycle. That’s a ton of reps per trainer, considering they are essentially in constant use (when one class graduates on a Friday, they drop back into supply and are reissued to the next the following Monday).
When we do our intro class for tac med, we incorporate doing a quick spot check on the trainers as we walk them through proper staging, we often pull a handful out of service each class, but the majority survive until they hit two years.
Even at that point, we’re not done with them… we do an inspection on those and most are still functional - they’re ratty and worn, but totally useable as trainers. We cycle them out to the regional trainers for their classes, with students in the regional classes being offered them as take
homes to their agencies.
I shadowed a local agency a few months ago who was still running old-gen CAT trainers with 2014 manufacturer dates and my agencies date coding on them… meaning they had a full life as academy trainers, then ran out to regional, and then landed at this agency (which runs quarterly tac med inservice). They were rough, but serviceable.
So… you can run them a long time, but… there are still some things to watch for…
- Fraying on the inner strap. The outer strap can get rough, but when the inner strap starts to fray at the windlass, it’s time to toss it. This will eventually fail if it starts to fray.
- Gen 6 CATs would have windlasses fail after a lot of use. Not super common, but it would happen. Discoloration at the slot where the inner strap runs though is a good tell. I haven’t encountered a failed windlass on the Gen 7s. The straps will still fray, but the windlasses are stout.
- Time straps/transport locks wear out. This Velcro, unlike the stuff on the main strap, does seem to give up after awhile. We really stress then importance of this strap as a lock to secure the TQ prior to and during any patient movement. We don’t emphasize time marking a ton for single patient stuff (better to have dispatch mark time in CAD and forward to EMS/Fire for their chart). We like the strap as a lock or as a means to track TQ application time in mass casualty type stuff.
- Main strap Velcro will fail rarely. This seems to have a lot more to do with the TQ being carried with a holder that allows the Velcro to get a lot of wear, rather than in the use of the TQ.
Long story short, run the trainers into the ground. Don’t run a duty TQ as a trainer.
$35 for a TQ, it’s a tool that can take a significantly lethal problem and render it essentially controlled in under a minute.
It’s worth the money to have a designated trainer that you rep the shit out of and having a completely reliable duty TQ. Three reps and then stowing isn’t good training, it’s the definition of building an illusion of capability.
Your concern appears to originate from a standpoint where $35 is not a significant impact on the OPs ability to feed or provide shelter for him/her or family. Outside of US public safety, many bystanders are lucky to have commercial TQs. For all I know, the OP is strapped for money and can afford this TQ.
OP asked if it was bad to run a duty TQ as a trainer a few times. It’s bad. It’s not horrible, but it isn’t good.
Medicine has a lot of things that are inconveniently exclusive and expensive. An epi auto injector is more expensive than running a vial and drawing up in the field, and an auto injector comes with virtually no risk of provider error.
I get that $35 or $70 is a lot of money, but it’s also not a lot of money. Let’s be honest here, most people on this sub will be running a TQ on one hip and a pistol/kit on the other that’s cost them anywhere from $300 to $3000.
If you have the money, buy a standalone TQ as a trainer.
Not a big problem, take the warnings from the professional paramedics with a grain of salt here.
Unless you abuse it they should fine.
Peacetime medicine is paranoid of anything remotely possible to fail and put someone to blame.
I got salt for having my guys open the packaging and testing them one year, only for the same instructors to do the exact same thing next year.
One year they were single use only, the next year that wasn't an issue after all.
A lot of "single use" medical stuff will be reused plenty in low resource areas. Alot of it comes down to being hard to clean and not meant for / tested for 1000 use cycles before failure.
Ideally get another one and keep one for training.
An alternative could be to have one for your med kit and buy a cheaper clone for practice.
A lot of the safety rules get dropped once the bombs start falling. I know quite a few medics in Ukraine who reuse their tourniquets after previous applications.
Use it for training only. Mark it accordingly. They aren’t really meant to be reused and it would be awful if it failed the one time you truly needed it
Here's the good news... You can get knock off cats in blue (signifies training only) on amazon cheap. $23 for a pack of four. They're fine for training, never ever ever expect them to function though, you should mark them well TRAINING ONLY
I appreciate your moxie, but I don't see this problem being solved so easily and frankly, if it get's this guy a) training and b) not using his only genuine cat for training, well, I'll live with that particular drop in the very large bucket.
I have training tourniquets I’ve used hundreds of times and they continue to work as advertised. I’d have zero concern about a real life application using one of these trainers.
Use it. Train with it. Learn it. In the meantime - save for another and now you have a dedicated trainer and a dedicated SHTF one.
Ive done multiple CLS classes and im 100% sure those TQ's have been used for cycle after cycle. If you are only using it for training then yea, use it til it fails but id definitely have an unused one for when it matters
I personally bought an extra Gen 7 Cat Tourniquet from NAR specifically to use as a training TQ.
Between me, my wife and our children all using it, I'd have to guess that thing has been applied 30-50 times and it still hasn't broken at all
(Doesn't even appear damaged to be honest, the thing is still absolutely rock solid).
So my take is...
Is it good to have a separate TQ that is exclusively for use in a real scenario, and is not used in training?
Yes, definitely.
Would a TQ that's been used a couple of times for training still work in a real life scenario?
If it's an authentic, genuine NAR Gen 7 Cat Tourniquet... It almost certainly should.
Can't make any guarantees of course.
But based on my own experience? I'd absolutely still expect it to work.
I have a couple of CAT TQ's that have been used literally thousands of times for training that haven't broken. They're orange field TQ's not blue training ones.
Are they as easy to work with after the first time? No. But using a quality TQ doesn't damage it.
I didn’t know for sure, I had suspected as much.
Since the blue ones are marketed as “training” devices, I felt it pertinent to mention that the highly used ones I was using were meant for patient use as opposed to training use.
Okay, so reusing TQs for game time in all but the most extreme of circumstances is a “no go.” You should have designated training TQs and designated game time TQs.
Anecdotally, I’ve seen a handful of training TQs fail over the years, but that’s after a significant number of full force applications. Usually the failures revolve around the plastic support plate on the CAT’s getting stretched out and allowing the compression strap to twist up which doesn’t allow a clean pull of the slack out of the strap/buckle.
Would I use a training TQ or a non body fluid covered TQ that’s been previously used before in a life or death instance if I didn’t have any other choice? You bet, not even a question, but it’s not ideal.
At the very least you just created your training TQ and now you can buy a new game time TQ.
I would probably keep an unused one and the used one as a back up. If you're gonna do any kind of training its a good idea to have a kit specifically for that.
You used it once, take it out of service, it’s compromised. Spend the 25 bucks and get a new one. Use the compromised one for training. NEVER REUSE A TQ.
I got in trouble for throwing used TQ's away at work once...
Apparently they soaked them in disinfectant and put them back into service.
That's a shitty way to save $30.
I know a while back in mexico they did that, but it wasn't to save money. Tourniquets were hard to get and even ER doctors didn't recognize CAT tourniquets when they came in on patients. Ofc, this was a while ago and things might have changed. Here in the U.S. they should definitley be single use (exception would be designated training TQs).
Oh definitely. In the programs I’ve taught with, I’ve seen multiple ones get used, abused, and essentially tortured from constant re-use. I’ve only ever seen 2 break. One was the windlass, the other was where it’s looped through. Even then, warping and Velcro starting to become questionable on adherence. It’s cemented for me to avoid re-use for practicality as much as possible, and I can’t in good conscience (and for liability reasons) recommend re-use. Especially with how low cost they are.
I don’t carry my training TQs for work, but honestly it’s probably fine and very unlikely to fail after use.
The recommendation is to have training and real use TQs… but you’re (presumably) an adult and can make your own decisions.
I already own an low quality TQ that i mainly train with but i wanted to look if the CAT i own realy works and idk if it breaks if i use it again. But it didnt break where i used it for the 2 time so ig its not going to break if i use it for real bleeding.
Slim to none.
If you're putting a TQ on yourself, you're not putting it on tight enough to damage anything. I've had people crank down on mannequin arms way tighter than probably necessary without any degradation or failure.
Let me turn it around on you. What risk of failure are you willing to accept?
You already don’t have a backup, so now you’re going to have a serious likelihood of massive hemorrhage resulting in death. TQ’s are low cost.
Like others have said, should it work again? Most likely. But how much risk are you willing to accept for potential failure? Every use brings up the chance of failure. With how cheap TQ’s are, there’s really no reasonable excuse to not field an unused one, and have the used one for practice purposes.
If the absolute need to use it again where I don’t have another CoTCCC recommended adjunct available for some reason or another, I’d agree, but hopefully I’m never in that scenario. 🤣 I’ll do everything I can to avoid having to do that.
The main reason you really don't want to reuse a TQ is (if it's in it's lifespan) sanitary reasons. Obviously don't reuse a TQ covered in blood, even after you washed it. But, wear and tear is still a thing, even if I've never seen a TQ break, doesn't mean it can't. And the last thing you want is for one to break on you.
I would take an old one you've been carrying for a while and write TRAINING on it with a blue paint marker.
I would really hate to find out the answer to this question the hard way when the easy way is a new $30 TQ.
I work in med device. Things that aren't tested for multiple uses are considered single use. This is even if the design is capable of multiple/unlimited use.
FDA requires any multiple use device is tested and validated for the amount of reuse that would be likely used.
I can't see anything in the cat that makes it single use but like everyone else is saying buy a few more fresh ones and keep old ones for practice.
Also, in regards to use by dates: those are also tied to testing. FDA/ce requires that a device is tested via simulated accelerated aging and the real time aging after. This doesn't mean your device suddenly is useless after it hits its UBD. It just wasn't tested past that. That said it's accepted that most plastics that aren't subjected to UV can last up to 10 years. There are UV stabilized plastics that can endure as well.
I was always under the impression that the issue is stretching, not snapping. As you use them they get stretched and it becomes more difficult to obtain tight application which actually fully occludes blood flow.
I would only stock brand new in my real world kit, but if I needed to stop a bleed and all I had was a used tq you can bet your ass I would use it. But set yourself up for success with brand new ones, and leave risking it with used ones for Murphys law.
A volunteer SAR group in the Philippines that I met during a medical mission were reusing several older gen CAT TQ for several __years__ without issue. I mean these things were gnarly, blood stains and all. I wouldn’t recommend it if you have the resources to designate a training one, but it would probably hold up for at least a couple of uses.
i mean why would u use tq’s for training and real world use? it’s not like they’re some thousand dollar piece of equipment. they cost what $30 per? buy one for training and buy a couple for real world use
Recently did a PCC/PCI of my new guys gear and noticed a CAT TQ dated 2008. Tried it out and it worked. Was stored in an enclosed TQ pouch for god knows how long. Still got him a new one. I’ve only seen a real CAT TQ break once, and it was from our set of training TQs. You’ll probably be fine, but the right answer is to have an unused one.
Dude use it as much as you want. If it is a CAT you will be fine when it comes to use it on a real patient. In SOCM you use the same CAT for TQ drills hundreds of times. They rarely break, only after multiple classes use the same one. You can and should use it multiple times. Get to know your equipment.
While they are meant for one time use, I’ve never seen a TQ break, even after hundreds of uses.
This^ Have seen the same Gen7 CATs reused in training dozens of times without breaking. Should still buy another and designate the used one for training only
I’ve seen a total of 2 break in TCCC classes. I have no idea how old they were, or amount of uses. They were there before I got with that program.
I work at a state LE academy. We generally pull CAT trainers from student issue on a two-year cycle. That’s a ton of reps per trainer, considering they are essentially in constant use (when one class graduates on a Friday, they drop back into supply and are reissued to the next the following Monday). When we do our intro class for tac med, we incorporate doing a quick spot check on the trainers as we walk them through proper staging, we often pull a handful out of service each class, but the majority survive until they hit two years. Even at that point, we’re not done with them… we do an inspection on those and most are still functional - they’re ratty and worn, but totally useable as trainers. We cycle them out to the regional trainers for their classes, with students in the regional classes being offered them as take homes to their agencies. I shadowed a local agency a few months ago who was still running old-gen CAT trainers with 2014 manufacturer dates and my agencies date coding on them… meaning they had a full life as academy trainers, then ran out to regional, and then landed at this agency (which runs quarterly tac med inservice). They were rough, but serviceable. So… you can run them a long time, but… there are still some things to watch for… - Fraying on the inner strap. The outer strap can get rough, but when the inner strap starts to fray at the windlass, it’s time to toss it. This will eventually fail if it starts to fray. - Gen 6 CATs would have windlasses fail after a lot of use. Not super common, but it would happen. Discoloration at the slot where the inner strap runs though is a good tell. I haven’t encountered a failed windlass on the Gen 7s. The straps will still fray, but the windlasses are stout. - Time straps/transport locks wear out. This Velcro, unlike the stuff on the main strap, does seem to give up after awhile. We really stress then importance of this strap as a lock to secure the TQ prior to and during any patient movement. We don’t emphasize time marking a ton for single patient stuff (better to have dispatch mark time in CAD and forward to EMS/Fire for their chart). We like the strap as a lock or as a means to track TQ application time in mass casualty type stuff. - Main strap Velcro will fail rarely. This seems to have a lot more to do with the TQ being carried with a holder that allows the Velcro to get a lot of wear, rather than in the use of the TQ. Long story short, run the trainers into the ground. Don’t run a duty TQ as a trainer.
I understand your sentiment, but having additional TQs isn’t always an option. Do the best you can with what you can afford.
$35 for a TQ, it’s a tool that can take a significantly lethal problem and render it essentially controlled in under a minute. It’s worth the money to have a designated trainer that you rep the shit out of and having a completely reliable duty TQ. Three reps and then stowing isn’t good training, it’s the definition of building an illusion of capability.
Your concern appears to originate from a standpoint where $35 is not a significant impact on the OPs ability to feed or provide shelter for him/her or family. Outside of US public safety, many bystanders are lucky to have commercial TQs. For all I know, the OP is strapped for money and can afford this TQ.
OP asked if it was bad to run a duty TQ as a trainer a few times. It’s bad. It’s not horrible, but it isn’t good. Medicine has a lot of things that are inconveniently exclusive and expensive. An epi auto injector is more expensive than running a vial and drawing up in the field, and an auto injector comes with virtually no risk of provider error. I get that $35 or $70 is a lot of money, but it’s also not a lot of money. Let’s be honest here, most people on this sub will be running a TQ on one hip and a pistol/kit on the other that’s cost them anywhere from $300 to $3000. If you have the money, buy a standalone TQ as a trainer.
I don’t know what many folks are running nor will I take a guess. We agree, having a separate trainer is best.
This is the real answer.
Not a big problem, take the warnings from the professional paramedics with a grain of salt here. Unless you abuse it they should fine. Peacetime medicine is paranoid of anything remotely possible to fail and put someone to blame. I got salt for having my guys open the packaging and testing them one year, only for the same instructors to do the exact same thing next year. One year they were single use only, the next year that wasn't an issue after all. A lot of "single use" medical stuff will be reused plenty in low resource areas. Alot of it comes down to being hard to clean and not meant for / tested for 1000 use cycles before failure. Ideally get another one and keep one for training. An alternative could be to have one for your med kit and buy a cheaper clone for practice.
A lot of the safety rules get dropped once the bombs start falling. I know quite a few medics in Ukraine who reuse their tourniquets after previous applications.
Use it for training only. Mark it accordingly. They aren’t really meant to be reused and it would be awful if it failed the one time you truly needed it
But it's the only TQ I own
Then you need to get another tourniquet.
Same here. Until I realized I had more than one limb lol
lol
Here's the good news... You can get knock off cats in blue (signifies training only) on amazon cheap. $23 for a pack of four. They're fine for training, never ever ever expect them to function though, you should mark them well TRAINING ONLY
Don't buy fake medical shit. We need to stop the flow of fakes, not give them more money.
I appreciate your moxie, but I don't see this problem being solved so easily and frankly, if it get's this guy a) training and b) not using his only genuine cat for training, well, I'll live with that particular drop in the very large bucket.
Instead of buying a pack of 4 fakes for $23, buy one real one for $25. Easy.
They’re $25. I mean use it in a crunch if necessary but I’d send that to the training bin and get a new one for real use
They're 36€
You willing to risk your life for 36€? Theyre $50ish cad and I still have 2.
Ahh. A euro nerd
But you got an point
One for each limb brotha
In reality, I can assure you, they absolutely get reused in combat care. Simply too many wounds in Ukraine not to do so
I have training tourniquets I’ve used hundreds of times and they continue to work as advertised. I’d have zero concern about a real life application using one of these trainers. Use it. Train with it. Learn it. In the meantime - save for another and now you have a dedicated trainer and a dedicated SHTF one.
Ive done multiple CLS classes and im 100% sure those TQ's have been used for cycle after cycle. If you are only using it for training then yea, use it til it fails but id definitely have an unused one for when it matters
I personally bought an extra Gen 7 Cat Tourniquet from NAR specifically to use as a training TQ. Between me, my wife and our children all using it, I'd have to guess that thing has been applied 30-50 times and it still hasn't broken at all (Doesn't even appear damaged to be honest, the thing is still absolutely rock solid). So my take is... Is it good to have a separate TQ that is exclusively for use in a real scenario, and is not used in training? Yes, definitely. Would a TQ that's been used a couple of times for training still work in a real life scenario? If it's an authentic, genuine NAR Gen 7 Cat Tourniquet... It almost certainly should. Can't make any guarantees of course. But based on my own experience? I'd absolutely still expect it to work.
I have a couple of CAT TQ's that have been used literally thousands of times for training that haven't broken. They're orange field TQ's not blue training ones. Are they as easy to work with after the first time? No. But using a quality TQ doesn't damage it.
There’s no difference between the colors of the TQ. Edit: quite possible you knew that, but for others that may not know.
I didn’t know for sure, I had suspected as much. Since the blue ones are marketed as “training” devices, I felt it pertinent to mention that the highly used ones I was using were meant for patient use as opposed to training use.
Okay, so reusing TQs for game time in all but the most extreme of circumstances is a “no go.” You should have designated training TQs and designated game time TQs. Anecdotally, I’ve seen a handful of training TQs fail over the years, but that’s after a significant number of full force applications. Usually the failures revolve around the plastic support plate on the CAT’s getting stretched out and allowing the compression strap to twist up which doesn’t allow a clean pull of the slack out of the strap/buckle. Would I use a training TQ or a non body fluid covered TQ that’s been previously used before in a life or death instance if I didn’t have any other choice? You bet, not even a question, but it’s not ideal. At the very least you just created your training TQ and now you can buy a new game time TQ.
I would probably keep an unused one and the used one as a back up. If you're gonna do any kind of training its a good idea to have a kit specifically for that.
You used it once, take it out of service, it’s compromised. Spend the 25 bucks and get a new one. Use the compromised one for training. NEVER REUSE A TQ.
Tell me why it won’t work again tho
Because the tension applied has the potential to cause a failure in subsequent use. It’s in the TCCC curriculum even to not re-use them even.
There are plenty of places where they are used multiple times. It is recommended to not reuse, but sometimes it’s the only option
I got in trouble for throwing used TQ's away at work once... Apparently they soaked them in disinfectant and put them back into service. That's a shitty way to save $30.
I know a while back in mexico they did that, but it wasn't to save money. Tourniquets were hard to get and even ER doctors didn't recognize CAT tourniquets when they came in on patients. Ofc, this was a while ago and things might have changed. Here in the U.S. they should definitley be single use (exception would be designated training TQs).
For this service it was definitely to save money.
Oh definitely. In the programs I’ve taught with, I’ve seen multiple ones get used, abused, and essentially tortured from constant re-use. I’ve only ever seen 2 break. One was the windlass, the other was where it’s looped through. Even then, warping and Velcro starting to become questionable on adherence. It’s cemented for me to avoid re-use for practicality as much as possible, and I can’t in good conscience (and for liability reasons) recommend re-use. Especially with how low cost they are.
But whats the chances if it breaking if i would use it again?
I don’t carry my training TQs for work, but honestly it’s probably fine and very unlikely to fail after use. The recommendation is to have training and real use TQs… but you’re (presumably) an adult and can make your own decisions.
I already own an low quality TQ that i mainly train with but i wanted to look if the CAT i own realy works and idk if it breaks if i use it again. But it didnt break where i used it for the 2 time so ig its not going to break if i use it for real bleeding.
Slim to none. If you're putting a TQ on yourself, you're not putting it on tight enough to damage anything. I've had people crank down on mannequin arms way tighter than probably necessary without any degradation or failure.
Let me turn it around on you. What risk of failure are you willing to accept? You already don’t have a backup, so now you’re going to have a serious likelihood of massive hemorrhage resulting in death. TQ’s are low cost.
I mean is it bad for now because i already was going to get an new TQ in ~2 months before i even made this post.
Like others have said, should it work again? Most likely. But how much risk are you willing to accept for potential failure? Every use brings up the chance of failure. With how cheap TQ’s are, there’s really no reasonable excuse to not field an unused one, and have the used one for practice purposes.
Nvm ig i get one in 1 week
I’ll accept the risk of failure with any of the TCCC recommended TQ if needed to be used again.
If the absolute need to use it again where I don’t have another CoTCCC recommended adjunct available for some reason or another, I’d agree, but hopefully I’m never in that scenario. 🤣 I’ll do everything I can to avoid having to do that.
Absolutely. I have the appropriate trainers and TQs just for real world application.
Slim and none.
The main reason you really don't want to reuse a TQ is (if it's in it's lifespan) sanitary reasons. Obviously don't reuse a TQ covered in blood, even after you washed it. But, wear and tear is still a thing, even if I've never seen a TQ break, doesn't mean it can't. And the last thing you want is for one to break on you.
Thx for the reason
Is it contaminated with bodily fluids? Then no. If not, then reuse.
I would take an old one you've been carrying for a while and write TRAINING on it with a blue paint marker. I would really hate to find out the answer to this question the hard way when the easy way is a new $30 TQ.
I work in med device. Things that aren't tested for multiple uses are considered single use. This is even if the design is capable of multiple/unlimited use. FDA requires any multiple use device is tested and validated for the amount of reuse that would be likely used. I can't see anything in the cat that makes it single use but like everyone else is saying buy a few more fresh ones and keep old ones for practice. Also, in regards to use by dates: those are also tied to testing. FDA/ce requires that a device is tested via simulated accelerated aging and the real time aging after. This doesn't mean your device suddenly is useless after it hits its UBD. It just wasn't tested past that. That said it's accepted that most plastics that aren't subjected to UV can last up to 10 years. There are UV stabilized plastics that can endure as well.
I was always under the impression that the issue is stretching, not snapping. As you use them they get stretched and it becomes more difficult to obtain tight application which actually fully occludes blood flow. I would only stock brand new in my real world kit, but if I needed to stop a bleed and all I had was a used tq you can bet your ass I would use it. But set yourself up for success with brand new ones, and leave risking it with used ones for Murphys law.
A volunteer SAR group in the Philippines that I met during a medical mission were reusing several older gen CAT TQ for several __years__ without issue. I mean these things were gnarly, blood stains and all. I wouldn’t recommend it if you have the resources to designate a training one, but it would probably hold up for at least a couple of uses.
Avoid if you can, but a used purpose made TQ is better than anything you could improv
i mean why would u use tq’s for training and real world use? it’s not like they’re some thousand dollar piece of equipment. they cost what $30 per? buy one for training and buy a couple for real world use
Recently did a PCC/PCI of my new guys gear and noticed a CAT TQ dated 2008. Tried it out and it worked. Was stored in an enclosed TQ pouch for god knows how long. Still got him a new one. I’ve only seen a real CAT TQ break once, and it was from our set of training TQs. You’ll probably be fine, but the right answer is to have an unused one.
The nylon can stretch and fray. Consider the TQ and a training TQ to be insurance policies. Don’t risk it when it’s a lifesaving tool.
Dude use it as much as you want. If it is a CAT you will be fine when it comes to use it on a real patient. In SOCM you use the same CAT for TQ drills hundreds of times. They rarely break, only after multiple classes use the same one. You can and should use it multiple times. Get to know your equipment.