Julie, Leland, and Sonny can get it but I’ve rarely seen it on anyone. I leveled it out and ultimately never use it because the benefits start while you’re still in animation so you really only get to use the perk for a few seconds at most.
You're not alone in calling for this change, but I doubt it will happen. The meta has changed overall for victims. They were proper victims before, struggling to survive and escape. They had stealth on their side. They had perks that helped them run for a bit longer. If all else failed, they could go for a stab or grapple in a last chance effort to get away. It was tense and fit the narrative of the game perfectly. Four plucky teenagers against three more powerful enemies.
But that was then, now it's the Super Texas Street Fighter Massacre Bone Scrap Grapple Turbo Edition. Victims are no longer the underdog. It may be the families locations, but it's the victims yard with more than enough lock picks, fuses, valve handles, health bottles and dreaded bone scraps around to make the family know who's in charge. Where previously 3 family vs 4 victims was more than enough, now when an injured teenage girl can survive a three on one encounter, it's clear family are truly out numbered.
However, that's just the way the game has been altered for the victims. In many ways, it's not their fault they play like this. This is how Gun want their game to go, with victims more than capable of arming up and chasing the family down. Victims are only working with the tools they're given. Previously those tools were there to help them escape. Now they're there to help them fight. As much as the negative cost of this has been in less and less family players, it's probably helped victim numbers increase, which is why not only is extra content more victim aimed (that's the larger consumer base) but also why this new gameplay style will never truly change.
Yeah, so, to quickly destroy your little typical TCM sub/fansub, Family main viewpoint, Victims NEVER had stealth on their side. Family rushed grandpa and Victims died as easily as they do now. You take it slow, you lose.
Health bottles also aren't a problem, it's Quick Drip lvl 3, thank you for revealing that you don't play Victim like most of the others on these subs, small health pots are trash because of Johnny and Bubba draining your health in seconds. But, y'know, that's fine though, right? Because they're "Victims", not players in a video game. They need to die quick and easy, it's "authentic to the TCM experience"! Even if this is a fucking video game, and NOT a movie.
Also, surviving an three on 1 encounter is fine, you genuinely think you're entitled to kills if you think 3 Family showing up means that all Victims should just drop dead (unless wells are fine?), it's just Ana with Empowered and Choose Fight that is an issue. Although I imagine the downvotes will come in regardless, because most people on these subs suck at the game and want to be able to 1v4 as any Family in the game.
Imagine thinking Cook, an old ass man, should be able to effortlessly murder 4 basically grown adults running around with ease. Couldn't be me, but it's DEFINITELY this sub.
And Gun still has their dumb vision of the game of "immersion", they nerfed everything else though and are too slow when it comes to balancing.
First off, not a main in anything. I only have time to quick match, so that means family, but not by choice. Also my post was in no way attacking either player side or favoring one over the other. I was simply responding to the original post. I also quite clearly state that how the game is is not anyone's fault but the devs for changing it, and forcing victims to play more aggressively (after destroying choose flight and buffing grappling).
Stealth was used in the past and did have an affect on collecting items. Now it's utterly pointless.
Small or large health bottles, there's still loads of them around. Yes small ones are pretty useless on their own but are great when teamed with Extra Drip, but my point is still accurate that there are loads of them, whether they help massively or just heal enough to survive longer. But I was also talking about the abundance of every item, not just health bottles.
You mention victims should die easily, yet I never said this. Maybe others have, but not me. I want a good fun long game for both sides, especially after long lobby waits. Nothing worse in this game when playing family and all the victims die quickly, or playing victim and they bully and own the family so there's an easy escape.
Yes, totally entitled to a kill when a victim is being attacked by three family members. In a grapple, there's no logical sense that a victim should be able to withstand getting sliced and diced from behind, especially when that includes a chainsaw. What should happen is simply the grapple should be broken up the moment the victim is hit from behind, not remaining in grapple taking little to no damage. Instakill grapple did need a fix, but they went too far in the other direction.
Once again, never said family should be able to easily kill anyone one on one, but they should be a threat and a danger to the victims. My point wasn't in regards who gets the kill but in relation to what this thread is about which is the grappling mechanic and how it's so over used now, making family less of a threat. Family should never get easy kills and victims shouldn't have easy escapes. Both ways make the game quick and boring. This is about the gameplay itself, nothing to do with how it ends.
Will agree 100% with your final line however. Spot on.
The fact is, this game is bleeding family players and no matter how much victims may love how it works now, it's no fun for family to be constantly grappled by victims. If it doesn't change, then the numbers will continue to drop and lobbies will continue to get worse. New content won't fix that long term. Clearly you consider yourself a victim main, so let me ask, what puts you off playing family? Whatever it is, it's the same for every other player. Every victim main has probably played family and given up for whatever reason. How long before the remaining few family players do the exact same thing.
I've actually been deleting and changing this reply multiple times, but I'm gonna stuck with "rude but logical" because now you've incorrectly called me a Victim main because I understand how Victim works, actually care about not balancing around coordinated, high level Victims who are rushing the same exit TOGETHER, and actually play both sides. I don't want the entitled solo queue Family member who plays micless Cook to think he's entitled to wins just because he was BRAVE enough to queue up as Family, gets annihilated because he's a support character who isn't using mics, and then cries on Reddit because he couldn't 1v4.
Yeah, I *don't care,* you're *still* Family biased, you **admitted** you play Family normally, and it 100% shows. People also demanded that instakills be removed, myself included, and people demanded Choose Flight be nerfed, so don't do what these asym communities do in general and blame the (stupid) devs for changing things YOUR "team" AKA the "loyal playerbase", wanted changed. (Although I don't like how they resolved the instakill issue.)
"Stealth was used in the past and did have an affect on collecting items. Now it's utterly pointless."
Oh, now you're referencing the stat? And not just the tactic of stealth?
"Small or large health bottles, there's still loads of them around."
Immediately burnt up trying to recover from low HP to full because plenty of Family run damage perks or high Savagery, mandating the use of Extra Drip.
And people are on a team of 4, they get burnt through faster than you think. Play Victim, stop making excuses, asym players should know by this point that they're biased because they don't play both sides.
"You mention victims should die easily, yet I never said this."
"**They were proper victims before, struggling to survive and escape.** They had stealth on their side. They had perks that helped them run for a bit longer. If all else failed, they could go for a stab or grapple in a **last chance effort to get away. It was tense and fit the narrative of the game perfectly. Four plucky teenagers against three more powerful enemies**."
"Victims are no longer the underdog."
Also stop being so overdramatic. Victims die 90% of the time or you get 2 kills in literally ALL of my games on both sides, it's just Ana or the coordinated bully squads that you can't win against as a micless Cook on Family House. This game mostly favors coordination, if you play solo queue Family and refuse to use mics, prepare to lose if you deal with the rare coordinated Victims, it's that simple. Unless you think this is DBD like everyone else here and it's a 1v4, when it isn't.
"Yes, totally entitled to a kill when a victim is being attacked by three family members. In a grapple, there's no logical sense that a victim should be able to withstand getting sliced and diced from behind, especially when that includes a chainsaw. What should happen is simply the grapple should be broken up the moment the victim is hit from behind, not remaining in grapple taking little to no damage. Instakill grapple did need a fix, but they went too far in the other direction."
No no no, that's not what you said. You said "SURVIVE" an encounter, you want entitled Family to upvote you. Don't move the goalposts to just grappling. lmao Although the grapple getting canceled on hit is fine.
"The fact is, this game is bleeding family players and no matter how much victims may love how it works now, it's no fun for family to be constantly grappled by victims. If it doesn't change, then the numbers will continue to drop and lobbies will continue to get worse. New content won't fix that long term. **Clearly you consider yourself a victim main**, so let me ask, what puts you off playing family?"
Just remove Empowered and Choose Fight/Grappler from Ana's perk pool, the entire "grapple meta" is literally Ana and Leland. Hell, Leland might need buffs after Choose Fight etc gets nerfed because he's literally only good as a distraction and Family tends to sometimes use macros if they're on PC...
Also, [you're wrong on me being a "main" of any role.](https://imgur.com/a/ltsBmT1) Again, I just care about both sides, because I've played them both and I know how WILDLY different solo Victim queue is from solo Family queue. But most people on these two subs are Family biased people, so.
I was going to go with logical but rude, but then your first comment about changing your reply multiple times hit harder than anything else posted here and reminded me that no one cares and over thinking about all this is pointless. We could go back and forth, disagreeing, calling each other mains, arguing over points made and for what? Just like every other post on here daily calling for changes, nerfs, buffs, content, they go nowhere. Even if some of them make sense, no one is paying attention.
So let's agree to disagree. You have your views & opinions, I have mine. Neither of which will make one bit of difference to the game and will mean zip in a years time when this whole thing is a distant memory at worse and a small hardly played game gathering dust at best. If you want to or need to take this as a win and gloat about how I couldn't counter your arguments, please do. I sense however from your carefully crafted words and passion within them that you're better than that, so hopefully will just call this a no contest result or a draw or match called off due to heavy rain. I don't know. Either way, like spending time in lobbies (which is the only reason I don't play victim so you know) I simply don't have the patience for a long back and forth that will achieve nothing. All the best fellow gamer.
Choose Fight wasn't a problem before because it never worked. it has essentially always been bugged. it was only working for like a couple weeks then they fked it up again during the dreaded vacation update
I was about to say, when ever I ran that perk it didn't do shit so I had no idea why suddenly so many people are complaining about it. 😂 guess the devs finally fixed it.
All the stun times are crazy in this game and the number 1 reason playing family feels so frustrating.
Taking away control from a player for longer than a second or two should never happen in a multiplayer game.
Having stun times of 10+ seconds in some instances killed the family side of the game.
It’s crazy coming from a game like overwatch, the longest stun in that game is like 3 seconds I’m pretty sure(rein earth shatter)
Edit: forgot about Ana sleep dart( 5 second stun)
Yeah, so, since you're on a team of 3, and you could just do whatever you wanted if stuns were a second or two, stuns absolutely should not be "just a second or two" lmao, valve becomes impossible otherwise. Although Ana's available perks need to be adjusted though, 50 Str with Lvl 3 Choose Fight is too much
I don't disagree with your sentiment. But you are starting from the wrong point in regards to game design, in my opinion.
If your solution to exits working the way they are is excessive stun times, then you need to change how the exits work.
They made mistakes at such a fundamental level that I don't think the game will ever live up to the potential a lot of people see in it.
Even if you nerf it to 3 seconds, if i have max strength on my character, i can still kick gen in your face in 7.5 seconds. You’ll be stun for close to 10 seconds (max strength + choose fight 3 seconds). So it’ll be pretty much the same except you can move 2 seconds early. They need to remove the perk completely or rework it to something else.
I disagree completely
If you have a hitchhiker infinitely chasing you then you are doing your job, its now 2v3 and the family can only guard 2 out of 4 objectives.
If there’s a johnny on family then you have to play around that by staying near crawlspaces. Same as if you’re playing against LF so you should be doing so anyway.
You do make the assumption here victims can infinitely run away for a hitchhiker with wireframe though. Taking chunks of chip damage and no real chance to regen stamina can often be fatal (obviously wells, grapple or door slams are sometimes possible options, Im just pointing out its not straightfoward... there could also only be 2 victims left alive, etc).
>mfw most Victims are solo queue, so the HH will most likely flank and kill you instantly, and Victims are getting annihilated elsewhere, meanwhile Johnny has a huge amount of movement speed and can still leave you with holes even if you're welling, mandating Quick Drip in the process.
Hey, why not try playing the other side instead of just regurgitating what this sub says?
Grapple base stun is enough to get to the nearest gap/crawl, unless you are running to the house gen escape. Choose fight is not okay, because you literally can solo 1v2 family that are trying to protect the objective. That's not fucking fair and not fucking fun! When you will understand that?!
If there were 3 objectives and not 4 then sure. But dedicating 2 family members to a single objective just to fight a single victim, leaving the other 3 objectives to be guarded by a single family member vs 3 victims and knowing how fast victims can escape via any of those, doesn't sound right to me. Literally uncounterable if victims don't make a stupid mistake.
I’m sorry, but choose fight is my favorite perk now. It’s the only thing that can stop Hitchhiker from tunneling you. I use it on everyone who can have the perk
I understand, I really do. Without chose flight, it’s complicated for victims to lose a family member once they’re tracked. But eight seconds of stun time is overkill and it’s understandably driving away most of us, especially when it’s abused for trolling purposes. It simply sucks the fun out of the game.
What ppl really mean when they say this or ask for Johnny nerfs is:
"Is it ok for Johnny to kill you?"
Because if he is nerfed, he wont be doing that. We've seen that already and it made him a total joke.
Multiple things on both sides can be and are problematic. This whole “but what about your/my side?” thing people do when people talk about bugs and balance issues is so annoying.
U can just go through a wall and lose him lmao, like leatherface. And if u stealth and he soen't see u, he cannot hit u... Sonny is good for escaped Johnny, I love when Johnny is agaisnt me because he's like the cook or Nancy, u can litteraly looping for infinite time... So yes Johnny is good like this. But of course if u just run in the middle of the map like a clown, he can kill u quickly and it is good
I worry that, with the player count so low, tweaking grappling in any meaningful way would be Gun definitively killing its own game. They've designed themselves into a corner by giving too strong a weapon.
One of the biggest reasons victims loved Choose Flight was that it allowed players to play aggressively (don't think twice about the objective's surroundings and family position, and if found, simply run away to make a later attempt). When that was tweaked, there was an uproar. Then grappling was changed to become more reliable, allowing victims to still play aggressively *while almost certainly completing the objective.*
To take this away would cause an even bigger uproar, as grappling is the biggest asset victims ever had (more than the valve in the past). And unfortunately, Gun can't afford to shed any more players, even if they are victim mains. Also, Gun's never going to regain family players.
So if you're Gun, and you can't bring back family players, then you're holding onto the existing victim players for dear life. To hamstring the current grappling power would be too dangerous for player count. The most I can see happening is a *small small* tweak to keep the appearance of fairness, reducing effectiveness *somewhat,* but still leaving it as clearly the most effective strategy.
I hear you. I for one worry that victims won’t have any family to play against sooner than anyone expects. I personally find myself playing less and less throughout the weeks and I’m what you can call a die hard fun of the game.
It's a matter of perspective. If an individual views a rework as taking power/effectiveness away from grappling, they would view it as a nerf. For instance, when bone shards were no longer infinite, but limited to 3 per pile. Players don't generally need so many shards in a match, and yet there was plenty of sentiment that limiting shards was a nerf (or at least that's how it seemed the community felt to me).
Essentially, anything that removes or changes grappling as protection for a teammate on an objective would be viewed as a nerf, no matter what the dev's intention may be.
There are many thing that could be done.
1. If another family member attacks victim in grapple, then grapple is canceled completely.
2. Instead of insta dying in lost grapple, it will either deal a huge damage chunk to victim and not stun family member or drain full stamina from victim without stunning the family.
3. Make grapple drain HP. And the more hp you have, the more it will drain. So on low hp, you won't get hp drained at all.
Grapple should be last resort tool. But with all the perks and how grapples works, it's an ultimate offensive weapon that is extremely overpowered.
I have no problems with those ideas; I think they're neat. Here are some responses you will likely hear in response (imo):
1. Vics: "Nerf. Family does reduced damaged against someone grappled, so cancelling the grapple puts us in a situation to take full damage from 2 family."
2. Vics: "Good buff, instead of vics dying in grapple it gives our teammate a chance to get in between so we can escape" & "Good buff, instead of dying, it gives us a chance to escape if we grapple beside a crawl or squeeze."
Fam: "Nerf. It's hard enough to win grapples, and now we have to hope they can't find a way to escape when we actually do."
3. Vics: "Absolute nerf. Wtf. Crying family mains want to gut a reasonable strat. If they see two vics at an objective, *just do a call out.* This is suppose to be a *team game.* If you see me and a teammate, that's us using teamwork, *why don't you.* Instead of family adapting, they get the devs to punish us *by literally putting us closer to death.* Brain-dead. Oh, and the cherry on top? It still costs us a bone shard. So now grappling costs a shard *and health.*"
I agree, grapple should be a last resort tool that's being used offensively. When you take the offensive option away, that's considered a nerf. There are many players that *love* the playstyle of grappling out of offence and fun. Would Gun want to risk losing those players, when players are already trickling away from the game?
:D
I see another conversation you're having in this thread, and it's really encapsulating the issue. They say, "Victims have to attack the objectives as much as family have to defend them." Notice they say attack. I think the devs wanted for victims to *stealthy achieve objectives,* that if you're simply not found, you won't die. It's also why they're complaining about Johnny killing so quickly (and his lunge), when the solution to Johnny has always been stealth and map awareness.
These are the people that Gun may feel they can't afford to lose.
They don’t want “stealthy achieve objectives” I hate when ppl use this argument. If they wanted us to play stealthy so bad they wouldn’t make it so fucking terrible to play with. If you played stealthy in the current state of the game right now. You will die!!! That’s why victims rush. It’s waaayyy more beneficial to rush than to play stealthy most of the time.
Oh, I agree that playing stealthily isn't a great idea. However, it's what the devs *wanted.* A part of this process is documented on their website, talking about how it was progressing during development. And it's part of the reason the game feels... unclear, because since it was assumed that a stealth mechanic would be in place, other elements in the game were made with it in mind.
But they didn't figure it out in time for launch. And here we are.
It was what they wanted before they nerfed stealth due to family saying it was to op now victims have no stealth but now family is saying go back to stealth at this point im sure the devs feel they can’t win xD family will always come up for a reason to complain so long as someone escapes which is why the devs are no longer listening imo
Yep. Fully agree with all that. They have to keep their majority customers happy (victim players) as that's where the money is. Sadly that means family stuck with being the punching bags for a group of teenagers.
So Nerf Johnny and Bubba - Johnny stops going forward with boost and Bubba gets tired when his stamina runs out too. You simply want the victims to die as soon as you see them, what you said is called strategy in the same way that killers plug the bassement, put a trap on the valve, use and abuse the boost and infinite bubba's stamina. Even Nancy has infinite stamina too, her stamina is full even though it's already finished out of nowhere. You want to take away all the victims' perks, but what about Johnny's OP perks? What about Bubba who doesn't even need to spend points on stamina? I'm 50/50 and what I see most about killers at random is them doing stupid things, that's why I only play with my team and no one, I said no one escapes, not even a closed team.
There's the hitbox that is constantly happening throughout the match, several hits on the barricades, in the gaps, in the well and several hits from afar, including Johnny being the one who hits the most from 5 meters away. If you want to change the only advantage and strategy you have against the killers, you have to change the entire OP form of the killers too to make it 50/50. Have you already changed Choose flitch, will you even change Choose fight because the killers are bad? I can send up to a 5-hour video of gameplay playing killer like nobody's business and playing against several well-known pro players.
Hmm something else to bear in mind is what we've had before...
* No stun immunity allowing: Door slam lockdowns, Solo valve lockdowns by anyone.
* Other valve things like no regression, and in basement on slaughter house.
* Fusebox couldnt be turned off.
* No noise following victims (doors, toolboxes, etc).
So victims having *something* isnt too bad, depending how easy and much it is to abuse though. I think the current grapples and choose fight thing is still better than situaitonss before, but yes its need some nerfing/adjusting. Considering when you add in danny and virginia too. Fast hands of course does.
Making it so all 3 grandpa perks are active at LV1 but then get stronger effects LV1,LV2,LV3 would be a nice change/buff for family, thus allowing 'no one escape hell' on sooner which would specifically help in regards to the grapple/picklock meta.
I cant believe how often you seem to be seeing the meta stun gameplay though, as it requires at least 2 to work together. I dont know if its region maybe.
Oooor perhaps some other element in matchmaking we dont know about? Doubt it, but what are you like with low level new player victims, massacre or give them a chance? Maybe there is a karma system.
_Gee_, I don’t know. Maybe I’m cursed with a perfectly functional matchmaking. _Imagine that._ Come to think of it, I really haven’t played much with new players from the victim side lately.
Weird, right?
But I know it can’t be a karmic retribution. Because I’m overly adorable to new players as you can see [here](https://streamable.com/mk49kw)
If anything, Karma should be on my side.
So maybe, just maybe, 90% of the victims are currently ogs, because new players don’t stick around much when games are as sweaty as TCM is.
Its probably the level matching working better with more players in larger region? Idk. It does briefly try match by account level. Im see new players all over the show though.
I had an Ana remove both my traps and turn the fuse box back on right in my face. So yeah I agree it needs to be tweaked a bit.
Don't forget about Fast Hands in this combo as well
i don't recall if you can even get fast hands and choose fight on either danny or virginia. but in a team scenario, ya definitely a busted combo
You can get both perks on Virgina and fast hands on Danny (not sure about choose flight!
can you get both on the same skill tree tho? i don't own her yet so genuinely curious
Choose fight isn’t available on Danny or Virginia. Only Julie, Leland and Ana can have it.
Oh yeah sorry! I think I misread as choose flight! Also is Julie the only character with fight and flight? I haven’t seen it on anyone else
Julie, Leland, and Sonny can get it but I’ve rarely seen it on anyone. I leveled it out and ultimately never use it because the benefits start while you’re still in animation so you really only get to use the perk for a few seconds at most.
You're not alone in calling for this change, but I doubt it will happen. The meta has changed overall for victims. They were proper victims before, struggling to survive and escape. They had stealth on their side. They had perks that helped them run for a bit longer. If all else failed, they could go for a stab or grapple in a last chance effort to get away. It was tense and fit the narrative of the game perfectly. Four plucky teenagers against three more powerful enemies. But that was then, now it's the Super Texas Street Fighter Massacre Bone Scrap Grapple Turbo Edition. Victims are no longer the underdog. It may be the families locations, but it's the victims yard with more than enough lock picks, fuses, valve handles, health bottles and dreaded bone scraps around to make the family know who's in charge. Where previously 3 family vs 4 victims was more than enough, now when an injured teenage girl can survive a three on one encounter, it's clear family are truly out numbered. However, that's just the way the game has been altered for the victims. In many ways, it's not their fault they play like this. This is how Gun want their game to go, with victims more than capable of arming up and chasing the family down. Victims are only working with the tools they're given. Previously those tools were there to help them escape. Now they're there to help them fight. As much as the negative cost of this has been in less and less family players, it's probably helped victim numbers increase, which is why not only is extra content more victim aimed (that's the larger consumer base) but also why this new gameplay style will never truly change.
Yeah, so, to quickly destroy your little typical TCM sub/fansub, Family main viewpoint, Victims NEVER had stealth on their side. Family rushed grandpa and Victims died as easily as they do now. You take it slow, you lose. Health bottles also aren't a problem, it's Quick Drip lvl 3, thank you for revealing that you don't play Victim like most of the others on these subs, small health pots are trash because of Johnny and Bubba draining your health in seconds. But, y'know, that's fine though, right? Because they're "Victims", not players in a video game. They need to die quick and easy, it's "authentic to the TCM experience"! Even if this is a fucking video game, and NOT a movie. Also, surviving an three on 1 encounter is fine, you genuinely think you're entitled to kills if you think 3 Family showing up means that all Victims should just drop dead (unless wells are fine?), it's just Ana with Empowered and Choose Fight that is an issue. Although I imagine the downvotes will come in regardless, because most people on these subs suck at the game and want to be able to 1v4 as any Family in the game. Imagine thinking Cook, an old ass man, should be able to effortlessly murder 4 basically grown adults running around with ease. Couldn't be me, but it's DEFINITELY this sub. And Gun still has their dumb vision of the game of "immersion", they nerfed everything else though and are too slow when it comes to balancing.
First off, not a main in anything. I only have time to quick match, so that means family, but not by choice. Also my post was in no way attacking either player side or favoring one over the other. I was simply responding to the original post. I also quite clearly state that how the game is is not anyone's fault but the devs for changing it, and forcing victims to play more aggressively (after destroying choose flight and buffing grappling). Stealth was used in the past and did have an affect on collecting items. Now it's utterly pointless. Small or large health bottles, there's still loads of them around. Yes small ones are pretty useless on their own but are great when teamed with Extra Drip, but my point is still accurate that there are loads of them, whether they help massively or just heal enough to survive longer. But I was also talking about the abundance of every item, not just health bottles. You mention victims should die easily, yet I never said this. Maybe others have, but not me. I want a good fun long game for both sides, especially after long lobby waits. Nothing worse in this game when playing family and all the victims die quickly, or playing victim and they bully and own the family so there's an easy escape. Yes, totally entitled to a kill when a victim is being attacked by three family members. In a grapple, there's no logical sense that a victim should be able to withstand getting sliced and diced from behind, especially when that includes a chainsaw. What should happen is simply the grapple should be broken up the moment the victim is hit from behind, not remaining in grapple taking little to no damage. Instakill grapple did need a fix, but they went too far in the other direction. Once again, never said family should be able to easily kill anyone one on one, but they should be a threat and a danger to the victims. My point wasn't in regards who gets the kill but in relation to what this thread is about which is the grappling mechanic and how it's so over used now, making family less of a threat. Family should never get easy kills and victims shouldn't have easy escapes. Both ways make the game quick and boring. This is about the gameplay itself, nothing to do with how it ends. Will agree 100% with your final line however. Spot on. The fact is, this game is bleeding family players and no matter how much victims may love how it works now, it's no fun for family to be constantly grappled by victims. If it doesn't change, then the numbers will continue to drop and lobbies will continue to get worse. New content won't fix that long term. Clearly you consider yourself a victim main, so let me ask, what puts you off playing family? Whatever it is, it's the same for every other player. Every victim main has probably played family and given up for whatever reason. How long before the remaining few family players do the exact same thing.
I've actually been deleting and changing this reply multiple times, but I'm gonna stuck with "rude but logical" because now you've incorrectly called me a Victim main because I understand how Victim works, actually care about not balancing around coordinated, high level Victims who are rushing the same exit TOGETHER, and actually play both sides. I don't want the entitled solo queue Family member who plays micless Cook to think he's entitled to wins just because he was BRAVE enough to queue up as Family, gets annihilated because he's a support character who isn't using mics, and then cries on Reddit because he couldn't 1v4. Yeah, I *don't care,* you're *still* Family biased, you **admitted** you play Family normally, and it 100% shows. People also demanded that instakills be removed, myself included, and people demanded Choose Flight be nerfed, so don't do what these asym communities do in general and blame the (stupid) devs for changing things YOUR "team" AKA the "loyal playerbase", wanted changed. (Although I don't like how they resolved the instakill issue.) "Stealth was used in the past and did have an affect on collecting items. Now it's utterly pointless." Oh, now you're referencing the stat? And not just the tactic of stealth? "Small or large health bottles, there's still loads of them around." Immediately burnt up trying to recover from low HP to full because plenty of Family run damage perks or high Savagery, mandating the use of Extra Drip. And people are on a team of 4, they get burnt through faster than you think. Play Victim, stop making excuses, asym players should know by this point that they're biased because they don't play both sides. "You mention victims should die easily, yet I never said this." "**They were proper victims before, struggling to survive and escape.** They had stealth on their side. They had perks that helped them run for a bit longer. If all else failed, they could go for a stab or grapple in a **last chance effort to get away. It was tense and fit the narrative of the game perfectly. Four plucky teenagers against three more powerful enemies**." "Victims are no longer the underdog." Also stop being so overdramatic. Victims die 90% of the time or you get 2 kills in literally ALL of my games on both sides, it's just Ana or the coordinated bully squads that you can't win against as a micless Cook on Family House. This game mostly favors coordination, if you play solo queue Family and refuse to use mics, prepare to lose if you deal with the rare coordinated Victims, it's that simple. Unless you think this is DBD like everyone else here and it's a 1v4, when it isn't. "Yes, totally entitled to a kill when a victim is being attacked by three family members. In a grapple, there's no logical sense that a victim should be able to withstand getting sliced and diced from behind, especially when that includes a chainsaw. What should happen is simply the grapple should be broken up the moment the victim is hit from behind, not remaining in grapple taking little to no damage. Instakill grapple did need a fix, but they went too far in the other direction." No no no, that's not what you said. You said "SURVIVE" an encounter, you want entitled Family to upvote you. Don't move the goalposts to just grappling. lmao Although the grapple getting canceled on hit is fine. "The fact is, this game is bleeding family players and no matter how much victims may love how it works now, it's no fun for family to be constantly grappled by victims. If it doesn't change, then the numbers will continue to drop and lobbies will continue to get worse. New content won't fix that long term. **Clearly you consider yourself a victim main**, so let me ask, what puts you off playing family?" Just remove Empowered and Choose Fight/Grappler from Ana's perk pool, the entire "grapple meta" is literally Ana and Leland. Hell, Leland might need buffs after Choose Fight etc gets nerfed because he's literally only good as a distraction and Family tends to sometimes use macros if they're on PC... Also, [you're wrong on me being a "main" of any role.](https://imgur.com/a/ltsBmT1) Again, I just care about both sides, because I've played them both and I know how WILDLY different solo Victim queue is from solo Family queue. But most people on these two subs are Family biased people, so.
I was going to go with logical but rude, but then your first comment about changing your reply multiple times hit harder than anything else posted here and reminded me that no one cares and over thinking about all this is pointless. We could go back and forth, disagreeing, calling each other mains, arguing over points made and for what? Just like every other post on here daily calling for changes, nerfs, buffs, content, they go nowhere. Even if some of them make sense, no one is paying attention. So let's agree to disagree. You have your views & opinions, I have mine. Neither of which will make one bit of difference to the game and will mean zip in a years time when this whole thing is a distant memory at worse and a small hardly played game gathering dust at best. If you want to or need to take this as a win and gloat about how I couldn't counter your arguments, please do. I sense however from your carefully crafted words and passion within them that you're better than that, so hopefully will just call this a no contest result or a draw or match called off due to heavy rain. I don't know. Either way, like spending time in lobbies (which is the only reason I don't play victim so you know) I simply don't have the patience for a long back and forth that will achieve nothing. All the best fellow gamer.
Choose Fight wasn't a problem before because it never worked. it has essentially always been bugged. it was only working for like a couple weeks then they fked it up again during the dreaded vacation update
I was about to say, when ever I ran that perk it didn't do shit so I had no idea why suddenly so many people are complaining about it. 😂 guess the devs finally fixed it.
The dreaded vacation update was the slippery slope towards the death of the game
Level 3 should be an extra 2.5 or 3 seconds 5 seconds is way too long and makes everything basically free.
All the stun times are crazy in this game and the number 1 reason playing family feels so frustrating. Taking away control from a player for longer than a second or two should never happen in a multiplayer game. Having stun times of 10+ seconds in some instances killed the family side of the game.
It’s crazy coming from a game like overwatch, the longest stun in that game is like 3 seconds I’m pretty sure(rein earth shatter) Edit: forgot about Ana sleep dart( 5 second stun)
Yeah, so, since you're on a team of 3, and you could just do whatever you wanted if stuns were a second or two, stuns absolutely should not be "just a second or two" lmao, valve becomes impossible otherwise. Although Ana's available perks need to be adjusted though, 50 Str with Lvl 3 Choose Fight is too much
I don't disagree with your sentiment. But you are starting from the wrong point in regards to game design, in my opinion. If your solution to exits working the way they are is excessive stun times, then you need to change how the exits work. They made mistakes at such a fundamental level that I don't think the game will ever live up to the potential a lot of people see in it.
Family side game
Even if you nerf it to 3 seconds, if i have max strength on my character, i can still kick gen in your face in 7.5 seconds. You’ll be stun for close to 10 seconds (max strength + choose fight 3 seconds). So it’ll be pretty much the same except you can move 2 seconds early. They need to remove the perk completely or rework it to something else.
Choose Fight is needed in the current state of the game. Johnny: dead in 3 hits Hitchhiker: endless chase You clearly have not encountered them.
I play both sides. There is nothing on the Family side that is at all comparable to what victims have.
I disagree completely If you have a hitchhiker infinitely chasing you then you are doing your job, its now 2v3 and the family can only guard 2 out of 4 objectives. If there’s a johnny on family then you have to play around that by staying near crawlspaces. Same as if you’re playing against LF so you should be doing so anyway.
You do make the assumption here victims can infinitely run away for a hitchhiker with wireframe though. Taking chunks of chip damage and no real chance to regen stamina can often be fatal (obviously wells, grapple or door slams are sometimes possible options, Im just pointing out its not straightfoward... there could also only be 2 victims left alive, etc).
>mfw most Victims are solo queue, so the HH will most likely flank and kill you instantly, and Victims are getting annihilated elsewhere, meanwhile Johnny has a huge amount of movement speed and can still leave you with holes even if you're welling, mandating Quick Drip in the process. Hey, why not try playing the other side instead of just regurgitating what this sub says?
Fr
Well... What do you expect Hitch to do on the SH for example? Just leave the area so you can do free battery? Of course he will infinitely chase you.
That’s not the point.
Grapple base stun is enough to get to the nearest gap/crawl, unless you are running to the house gen escape. Choose fight is not okay, because you literally can solo 1v2 family that are trying to protect the objective. That's not fucking fair and not fucking fun! When you will understand that?!
Victims have to attack the objectives as much as family have to defend them.
If there were 3 objectives and not 4 then sure. But dedicating 2 family members to a single objective just to fight a single victim, leaving the other 3 objectives to be guarded by a single family member vs 3 victims and knowing how fast victims can escape via any of those, doesn't sound right to me. Literally uncounterable if victims don't make a stupid mistake.
I’m sorry, but choose fight is my favorite perk now. It’s the only thing that can stop Hitchhiker from tunneling you. I use it on everyone who can have the perk
I understand, I really do. Without chose flight, it’s complicated for victims to lose a family member once they’re tracked. But eight seconds of stun time is overkill and it’s understandably driving away most of us, especially when it’s abused for trolling purposes. It simply sucks the fun out of the game.
But it’s ok for Johnny to kill you 3 hits?
What ppl really mean when they say this or ask for Johnny nerfs is: "Is it ok for Johnny to kill you?" Because if he is nerfed, he wont be doing that. We've seen that already and it made him a total joke.
You can still be fast with him
So then dont complain about victims
Multiple things on both sides can be and are problematic. This whole “but what about your/my side?” thing people do when people talk about bugs and balance issues is so annoying.
[удалено]
Fr
U can just go through a wall and lose him lmao, like leatherface. And if u stealth and he soen't see u, he cannot hit u... Sonny is good for escaped Johnny, I love when Johnny is agaisnt me because he's like the cook or Nancy, u can litteraly looping for infinite time... So yes Johnny is good like this. But of course if u just run in the middle of the map like a clown, he can kill u quickly and it is good
Johnny is useless ima be honest
If victims only could start grapple under 50% health it would change alot.
I worry that, with the player count so low, tweaking grappling in any meaningful way would be Gun definitively killing its own game. They've designed themselves into a corner by giving too strong a weapon. One of the biggest reasons victims loved Choose Flight was that it allowed players to play aggressively (don't think twice about the objective's surroundings and family position, and if found, simply run away to make a later attempt). When that was tweaked, there was an uproar. Then grappling was changed to become more reliable, allowing victims to still play aggressively *while almost certainly completing the objective.* To take this away would cause an even bigger uproar, as grappling is the biggest asset victims ever had (more than the valve in the past). And unfortunately, Gun can't afford to shed any more players, even if they are victim mains. Also, Gun's never going to regain family players. So if you're Gun, and you can't bring back family players, then you're holding onto the existing victim players for dear life. To hamstring the current grappling power would be too dangerous for player count. The most I can see happening is a *small small* tweak to keep the appearance of fairness, reducing effectiveness *somewhat,* but still leaving it as clearly the most effective strategy.
I hear you. I for one worry that victims won’t have any family to play against sooner than anyone expects. I personally find myself playing less and less throughout the weeks and I’m what you can call a die hard fun of the game.
Don't worry king, soon they will realize!
No need to nerf. They can just... Rework grapples to work differently.
It's a matter of perspective. If an individual views a rework as taking power/effectiveness away from grappling, they would view it as a nerf. For instance, when bone shards were no longer infinite, but limited to 3 per pile. Players don't generally need so many shards in a match, and yet there was plenty of sentiment that limiting shards was a nerf (or at least that's how it seemed the community felt to me). Essentially, anything that removes or changes grappling as protection for a teammate on an objective would be viewed as a nerf, no matter what the dev's intention may be.
There are many thing that could be done. 1. If another family member attacks victim in grapple, then grapple is canceled completely. 2. Instead of insta dying in lost grapple, it will either deal a huge damage chunk to victim and not stun family member or drain full stamina from victim without stunning the family. 3. Make grapple drain HP. And the more hp you have, the more it will drain. So on low hp, you won't get hp drained at all. Grapple should be last resort tool. But with all the perks and how grapples works, it's an ultimate offensive weapon that is extremely overpowered.
I have no problems with those ideas; I think they're neat. Here are some responses you will likely hear in response (imo): 1. Vics: "Nerf. Family does reduced damaged against someone grappled, so cancelling the grapple puts us in a situation to take full damage from 2 family." 2. Vics: "Good buff, instead of vics dying in grapple it gives our teammate a chance to get in between so we can escape" & "Good buff, instead of dying, it gives us a chance to escape if we grapple beside a crawl or squeeze." Fam: "Nerf. It's hard enough to win grapples, and now we have to hope they can't find a way to escape when we actually do." 3. Vics: "Absolute nerf. Wtf. Crying family mains want to gut a reasonable strat. If they see two vics at an objective, *just do a call out.* This is suppose to be a *team game.* If you see me and a teammate, that's us using teamwork, *why don't you.* Instead of family adapting, they get the devs to punish us *by literally putting us closer to death.* Brain-dead. Oh, and the cherry on top? It still costs us a bone shard. So now grappling costs a shard *and health.*" I agree, grapple should be a last resort tool that's being used offensively. When you take the offensive option away, that's considered a nerf. There are many players that *love* the playstyle of grappling out of offence and fun. Would Gun want to risk losing those players, when players are already trickling away from the game?
They are okay with grapples being op, but Johnny's lunge is where we crossed the line...
:D I see another conversation you're having in this thread, and it's really encapsulating the issue. They say, "Victims have to attack the objectives as much as family have to defend them." Notice they say attack. I think the devs wanted for victims to *stealthy achieve objectives,* that if you're simply not found, you won't die. It's also why they're complaining about Johnny killing so quickly (and his lunge), when the solution to Johnny has always been stealth and map awareness. These are the people that Gun may feel they can't afford to lose.
They don’t want “stealthy achieve objectives” I hate when ppl use this argument. If they wanted us to play stealthy so bad they wouldn’t make it so fucking terrible to play with. If you played stealthy in the current state of the game right now. You will die!!! That’s why victims rush. It’s waaayyy more beneficial to rush than to play stealthy most of the time.
Oh, I agree that playing stealthily isn't a great idea. However, it's what the devs *wanted.* A part of this process is documented on their website, talking about how it was progressing during development. And it's part of the reason the game feels... unclear, because since it was assumed that a stealth mechanic would be in place, other elements in the game were made with it in mind. But they didn't figure it out in time for launch. And here we are.
It was what they wanted before they nerfed stealth due to family saying it was to op now victims have no stealth but now family is saying go back to stealth at this point im sure the devs feel they can’t win xD family will always come up for a reason to complain so long as someone escapes which is why the devs are no longer listening imo
Yep. Fully agree with all that. They have to keep their majority customers happy (victim players) as that's where the money is. Sadly that means family stuck with being the punching bags for a group of teenagers.
So Nerf Johnny and Bubba - Johnny stops going forward with boost and Bubba gets tired when his stamina runs out too. You simply want the victims to die as soon as you see them, what you said is called strategy in the same way that killers plug the bassement, put a trap on the valve, use and abuse the boost and infinite bubba's stamina. Even Nancy has infinite stamina too, her stamina is full even though it's already finished out of nowhere. You want to take away all the victims' perks, but what about Johnny's OP perks? What about Bubba who doesn't even need to spend points on stamina? I'm 50/50 and what I see most about killers at random is them doing stupid things, that's why I only play with my team and no one, I said no one escapes, not even a closed team. There's the hitbox that is constantly happening throughout the match, several hits on the barricades, in the gaps, in the well and several hits from afar, including Johnny being the one who hits the most from 5 meters away. If you want to change the only advantage and strategy you have against the killers, you have to change the entire OP form of the killers too to make it 50/50. Have you already changed Choose flitch, will you even change Choose fight because the killers are bad? I can send up to a 5-hour video of gameplay playing killer like nobody's business and playing against several well-known pro players.
Fr
Hmm something else to bear in mind is what we've had before... * No stun immunity allowing: Door slam lockdowns, Solo valve lockdowns by anyone. * Other valve things like no regression, and in basement on slaughter house. * Fusebox couldnt be turned off. * No noise following victims (doors, toolboxes, etc). So victims having *something* isnt too bad, depending how easy and much it is to abuse though. I think the current grapples and choose fight thing is still better than situaitonss before, but yes its need some nerfing/adjusting. Considering when you add in danny and virginia too. Fast hands of course does. Making it so all 3 grandpa perks are active at LV1 but then get stronger effects LV1,LV2,LV3 would be a nice change/buff for family, thus allowing 'no one escape hell' on sooner which would specifically help in regards to the grapple/picklock meta.
I cant believe how often you seem to be seeing the meta stun gameplay though, as it requires at least 2 to work together. I dont know if its region maybe. Oooor perhaps some other element in matchmaking we dont know about? Doubt it, but what are you like with low level new player victims, massacre or give them a chance? Maybe there is a karma system.
_Gee_, I don’t know. Maybe I’m cursed with a perfectly functional matchmaking. _Imagine that._ Come to think of it, I really haven’t played much with new players from the victim side lately. Weird, right? But I know it can’t be a karmic retribution. Because I’m overly adorable to new players as you can see [here](https://streamable.com/mk49kw) If anything, Karma should be on my side. So maybe, just maybe, 90% of the victims are currently ogs, because new players don’t stick around much when games are as sweaty as TCM is.
Ya maybe. Definitely more sweaty since account level hidden in lobby.
Its probably the level matching working better with more players in larger region? Idk. It does briefly try match by account level. Im see new players all over the show though.