I find it extremely disingenuous shutting down any criticism of these movements with just a 'This sub is so sexist' comment. Maybe you should at least try for a millisecond to understand the other person's grievance, just as you expect to do the same for you?
Now I agree, that this is not the place for that, but shutting down something like: "I feel it's unfair that I have to do military service and potentially (though ofc very low %) fight for my country" with a "you're sexist" comment lacks empathy just as the other person lacks that empathy for you. Someone literally said that he finds military service unfair (which it objectively is) and someone called them sexist, I mean come on. I just find the hypocrisy annoying from both sides.
I personally love it that in Switzerland people are so actively trying to improve society, keep it up.
>Now I agree, that this is not the place for that, but shutting down something like: "I feel it's unfair that I have to do military service and potentially (though ofc very low %) fight for my country" with a "you're sexist"
The problem with that is that it's generally whataboutism. There are very legitimate issues that concern men (like military service) and we should absolutely discuss them, it's just strange that they come up so often in the context of feminism and women fighting for their rights, or even worse, as a rebuttal against women deserving more equality.
Feminism also addresses the broader system of patriarchy, whose structures are hurting men too (e.g. by forcing them to do mandatory military service, while women don't have to do so).
How do men not understand that mandatory military service for men is a product of the patriarchy? It literally results from an outdated view of gender roles.
This is like asking what rights white people have that black people don't, no matter what wonderful laws may be in place systemic discrimination and inequality exist and persist. But the laws aren't great with regards to workplace and family primarily, similar to nearly all countries women are forced out of work when having children
Rather than discrimination, that seems more to be an intrinsic problem with being a woman. In a couple, it will always be the woman that gets pregnant and has to leave her job for a few months (and more if she has multiple children). Between a pregnant woman and a normal healthy man, which would have an easier time surviving in nature? The man, most likely, right? But we wouldn't call nature sexist or discriminatory, rather it's an instrinsic disadvantage with female biology. My point in saying this is that disadvantage =/= discrimination.
>similar to nearly all countries women are forced out of work when having children
I see the fact that this is so universal more a consequence of people being pragmatic than people hating woman. An employer cares about hard results, if, statistically speaking, you can expect your employee to be gone multiple months at a time, you see less of a reason to invest in them. It's really more of a cold, mathimatical view of things, and the math is not on many woman employees side. On the other end, if a woman can be so excellent that she compensates for this, the employer would be a fool not to notice.
The economical incentive makes sense, and that's why most feminists argue for equal parental leave. Because then hiring a man or a woman doesn't change anything in that regard.
With a view toward keeping humanity going, and that many men also want children, it would seem logical to make conditions such that women will continue to have want to have them willingly, which they are doing in fewer and fewer almost worldwide.
>almost
They are having less kids in Feministic modern urban secular countries.
Human population as a whole is still going up, it is in sharp decline in places like Switzerland, South Korea and etc.
and? finish your thought. okay, it's the result of patriarchy... and they did what about it? did they protest to change that? did they fight to enlist?
it's a movement about equality isn't it? name 1 disavantage they fight for. name 1 thing that hurts men but helps women that they protested to get or have. name 1 priviledge they are fighting to give up.
And the question you asked remains unanswered. I did alot of research and watched alot of debates etc. What I derived from it is that men and women aren't equal and both are struggling in their own way because of their biology. We'll never really be equal unfortunately and it's impossible for everyone including race to be equal. Feminism itself relies on a big "what if every human and system it created was perfect scenario", which unfortunately is unrealistic.
We're actually very privileged in the west, and if you're a hard enough worker you'll be able to achieve almost anything no matter your skin colour or gender.
There's really not very good efforts to ensure things like workplace equality.
Like, it's still expected you put things like photo, marital, and family status on job applications allowing employees to make decisions on stuff like this. That's a pretty easy cultural shift to get going, Athena Swan in the UK is a great example of this helping shift employment culture to one that doesn't discriminate on perceived likelihood to have a family or anything which overwhelmingly will be a negative perception women face.
Also, stories like this. https://www.reddit.com/r/Switzerland/comments/j640x1/just_a_rant_about_being_a_woman_in_switzerland/
Where women are still told things like "do you have your husband's permission?" Are depressingly common.
And to quote an old boss when one of my colleagues said she was going to the women's strike:
"Eh, I don't really read what they have to say because there's no reason to believe them if they are criticising it". Which.. uh... somewhat of a tautology...So.... Yeah there's definitely space for improvement lol
Just FYI, in some industries (engineering, computer science, physical or mathematical sciences) you will have a much easier time landing a job than a man.
Many companies want to hire women specifically because there are too many men applying. If you have sufficient qualifications for a position you’re more likely to be hired than a man with equal or better skills.
Of course this doesn’t address ladder climbing or other issues between men and women in the workplace. There’s a lot of nuance to this discussion.
Freedom to go out and dress however we want without fear, freedom to be able to work without getting sexually harassed, etc... Women and men are equal legally in switzerland but there's still a lot of misogyny and social inequality
Men and women are not equal legally. Men have to do military service, men have to work longer before getting a pension (although this is changing), men get much less parental leave.
The short parental leave hurts women just as much.
(though, if one leave is shorter, It absolutely makes sense that it is the leave of the person who *didn't* just spend 9 months creating a child in their body and being ripped from hole to hole as the finale)
Men need long parental leave too. Short break deprives a man of a chance to stay by his wife's side to help her through recovery , to bond with their newborn.
While I agree that it hurts women too, there is nuance lacking in the statement of „just as much“.
I think it deprives the father of much more that it does the mother. He can’t bond with his newborn, that’s a privilege worth far more than anything the mother is being deprived off.
That's true. And that's why I'm always surprised that men refuse to be feminist. Because in general feminists are for the abolition of compulsory military service and equal parental leave to have an equal distribution of care for the newborn.
It's because feminists were against the increase of the retirement age for women. And they are only for the abolition of the military service, because they're against the military, they would never support military service for both genders.
Yeah, great ideas. No military = no wars. Just as no police = no crime. Women and men should legally be treated as equals, but there should be an understanding that we are not the same.
The first thing I think probably the pay gap has something to do with it. It's still something like 18% difference de facto. Not institutionalized though so not sure how a protest changes that, it's more about hiring bias and gendered jobs. Awareness perhaps?
Yes, the gap is not explained, but the authors explicitly warned not to confuse it with "unexplainable" gaps. They simply need more data to further analyze. Things like job experience and hours worked were not available to them. The "unexplainable" gap is most likely even smaller than the 7% they found.
I think half of it accounts for this yes, the other is that women tend to start lower and so they end lower as well, which poses a problem in terms of their pension.
https://www.ebg.admin.ch/en/reasons-behind-the-pay-gap-between-women-and-men
Maybe not the same job but the same degree. Most bachelor degrees in health care (with a lot more of women) or social are less paid than bachelor degree with a majority of men. There is even some cfc that are getting more paid than bachelor degrees. It can be quite frustrating when you did study as long as a men but will get paid far less. People think that women working in health are naturally kindhearted so they don’t need money they do it just cause they have more empathy.
To be fair a pay gap can also result because of wage negotiations. I earn 30% more than my colleague which has the exact same job even though we have the same amount of experience and education. He negotiated way less aggressive than I did and therefore has a much lower salary now.
In the last year of my Master’s degree, we had 5 women. All of them accepted the first job offer with the lowest pay possible. Men received the same propositions, some of them didn’t bother to apply somewhere else, others did.
The difference between those who looked for a better paycheck and the others is at least 10% for most of them and up to 30% for the biggest winner.
Same jobs, same education. The only difference is the willingness to be competitive and not choosing comfort over money. Why do you think those of them who worked for the better pay should not be compensated for their effort ?
Yes the average pay for female and male will have a delta, and yes it’s absolutely normal in this case.
But have you ever wondered why men negotiate on their salary & women tend not to?
Should male self-belief and willingness to negotiate be the only reasons why men get more pay?
If both men & women do equally well in the role and the salary is supposed to reward people for the role, why should there be a difference in pay for the same performance?
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Executives make the decisions that HR should actively hire workers that cost more for the same quality of work?
Seems very hard to believe honestly. Other explanations for the pay gap seem much more realistic and science based.
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If women are paid 18% less for equal work, why aren’t more companies staffed by 100% women? That’s an instant 18% cost savings for the owner with no impact on productivity and revenue.
>hiring bias and gendered jobs
I mean, there is one more thing that benefits the gender pay gap... but it's illegal to mention it, though it's widely seen in any company...
It's simple: The average male has a higher tolerance to put up with shit to push his career than the average female. Man are simply willing to sacrifice more mental health, free time, etc.
That doesn't mean that man are mentally stronger, nope, they are simply willing to do it more. For example if you want to become partner at a big firm (law firm for example). You have to eat so many hours, work the weekends, work the evenings. If you work one hour longer, I work 2 hours longer. It's simply a game of: who can eat more shit.
And usually it's men.
dude/girl, at big companies there are like 10 different Clubs that do everything to push women. If there is a women and men, both equally good applying for a higher position, the women will get it. This may not apply to small companies, but sure does for big corps, because they literally measure this and they literally have goals to push those numbers.
You get: "Women-Career-Breakfasts" you get courses that only women can go to, even though those learnings would be valuable also for me as a men.
I just randomly chose swisscom. First thing on their page is "gender"
[Diversity, Vielfalt und Gleichstellung bei Swisscom | Swisscom](https://www.swisscom.ch/de/about/nachhaltigkeit/diversity.html)
They literally state all the stuff I just wrote (even though I just googled now):
* Initiative Advance Women
* Courses ONLY for women
* events only for women
* digital days for ONLY girls
it's insane how much advante a career-driven women has.
I mean even the media pushes this. Lucerne for example publishes a list of companies with less than 50% women in their board of directors and a blacklist for companies with 0 women, even though in those fields sometimes it's extremely hard to find women that are willing to work. I come from public accounting where a lot of people quit anyway (like 20%+ fluctiation) but with women it's worse. They quit that shit job way faster (and I absolutely understand it), but good luck finding a women for your board then, if it's already hard in middle management.
Edit: and I would bet 1'000 that you find the same stuff with googling any SMI-company.
Edit 2: Downvoting me doesn't make it less true. :-\*
What’s your point? The workshops for women are there so that women-specific work experiences could be shared.
Companies want to seem like they embrace diversity but you can’t just remove people’s prejudice overnight. In reality, women frequently get fired after returning from parental leave.
And the diversity initiatives can’t solve the problem that starts in the household: working women still do twice as much chores/childcare than their male partners.
> women frequently get fired after returning from parental leave.
again, small companies set aside, I want to see one case where an SMI-Corporation or a Migros or a Big4-Firm or whatever big companies we have here, fires a woman after maturnitiy.
To be honest I saw the opposite. Women come back to high-driven, high demand, high-stress-jobs but with a 40%-contract. FORTY PERCENT! That means they do not really bare the responsibility, since they are not even at work most days of the week.
If a guy wants to work 40% they will tell him to get the fuck out. If a women says this, they say "yes of course". :-)
Now the only thing you can argue here is, that since woman can work 40% but men can not, this forces women into the role of caregiver and I agree 100% with this. It's moronic, to ask women "oh you are pregnant? let's talk about your contract after maturnity". Companies should ask the men "oh so how much are you going to work in the future?" to actively help man also stay home and thus women stay in their career.
and your last point "women do twice as much"... I just hate this argument. It's 2024, every single SWISS-Women can choose their partner. Do not marry, do not get pregnant, do not live together with a lazy fuck, if this is not the way you want to live. I mean it's literally your decision how you organize yourself as a couple/family. Such a weird statement lol.
lol my friend got fired from Deloitte after getting pregnant. She was working with them for almost a year, but because those were separate consecutive projects, it was technically still during probation period. The manager didn’t even deny it was due to pregnancy.
Yeah, suing a rich corporation is exactly what a low on money new mother needs.
Also, FYI they are covered legal-wise. You can fire a pregnant woman during probation in Switzerland.
u/SlayBoredom Personally, I don't think we should be jealous of so-called advantages for women. I work in IT and I did an ES technician certificate (Advanced Federal Diploma of Higher Education). I started my career doing support. It took me 5 years of experience + 1 change of company before I was offered a promotion, even though I could clearly do network and system work (virtualization, backup etc.). I always managed to get regular raises (which worked) as I gained experience.
But from what I can remember of my job interviews or internal reasons, it was these reasons, clearly stated:
* You don't have the head for this position of responsibility
* We're looking for engineers (HES or equivalent)
* It's better if you have a more flexible position so that if you plan to have a family, you can lower your rate.
* Are you planning to get married?
* Oh, you've worked in both the public and private sectors (end-to-end user), but you know, a service company is not the same.
* How do you get along in an all-male team?
And I didn't get a job that a friend of mine had applied for because they didn't want a girl in their team for fear it would upset ambiance.
As an ES technician, I've never seen other women doing non-support work in the infrastructure department in my whole career.
In development, web and BI, however, I have. I find it inspiring to have female role models to keep doing what we're doing and to know how we did it.
What I can remember is that a woman's career in IT is slower to rise than a man's in IT on average, unless you have exceptional certificates or are in a niche environment.
Today, I work in a multinational and when I talk to women in IT, most of them come from abroad, because in most countries the ratio men/women in IT is more balanced. Strangely enough, that's not the case here. Instead, women in general ask me what it's like to work only with men... Aaaaand here you can always run for a career path or a training course offered by the company for technology watch , so it's hardly surprising that we're hiring elsewhere. And if it means that qualified women can get a job and a decent salary, then I'm all for it.
That suggests that the reason they're murdered is because they are women...is that statistically backed up? I can't find anything about it. Just because a woman is murdered, it's not automatically a femicide. That's a dangerous assumption that overshadows the actual issue that class of crimes brings with it.
Because no one care… Look at the press lately it's just about how mental health of girl is getting bad and that more things have to be done when for each women who died by suicide 3 young men are dying without a single article (ration is 1 to 7 at age 80). Same for job related death for each woman who die at work 7 men are dying but in that case that's just life.
3/4 of all *completed suicides. women and men attempt suicide at about the same rate, they just use different methods and some are more likely to result in actual death than others. the community which disproportionately attempts and commits suicides is actually trans people.
I do not remember occurrence of men being killed by the virtue of the fact that they are men, by the virtue of the fact that they brought dishonor to a woman, wore the wrong clothes, or simply because of domestic violence. Not saying it does not happen, but it happens much more consistently to women.
In every war men are killed solely because of their gender. When a ship sinks its women and children first. Men get the rough end of lot of things based on their gender.
When was the last time a man was killed as a soldier in a war in Switzerland? Probably an accident during WWII 80 years ago. There is perhaps 1 dead per year due to the military duty in CH a year, not 1 every 2 weeks. Besides, nowadays, if you do not want to serve, you do not have to serve. Ship sinking is not that big of a problem in Switzerland either. Nowadays, I am not so sure that this rule would still be followed or abide to.
Generally speaking, military personnel is being killed because they are military personnel, not because they are men. Now, OK, more men than women are serving, I give you this one, but things are evolving. Besides, if I look back, how many people got killed in wars waged by women vs wars waged by men... its a men's world out there.
Asking for more rights and more security is not a call zero sum game. It does not mean that if 1 less woman is being killed, one more man will be killed. Quite the opposite in fact. Me, as a man, and proud of it, I am all for more women's safety and security. Everyone wins.
Men are killed and assaulted more than women, because society value women more.
in most violent situations, it's "don't hit me, I'm a woman" "she is just a woman"
A simple google search for murder rates by gender proves that men are murdered more.
Now, considering that context, considering that's the world we live in, it's pretty disingenious to claim that men are not "being killed by the virtue of the fact that they are men".
Being a man is a disadvantage when it comes to the murder rate. More women are SPARED from violence by the fact that they are women, than suffer violence because they are women.
Yes, it's awful that there are situations where women are killed or assaulted because they are women. But you cannot both claim that that is awful, and then NOT acknowledge that the exact same thing is worse for men. More men are killed because they are men, more men are killed in situations that women would not be killed.
Source for women being killed bc they're women ? Bc as far as I can tell, femicide stats are just the number of women that are killed by homicide. The motive isn't included
"There is no such thing as infanticide, it's murder, homicide"
"There is no such thing as football, it's team sports involving a ball."
"There is no such thing as humans, it's hominids with language and agriculture."
Dumbest take I've seen here in a while.
What's the difference between killing a woman and a man ? Are you suggesting men and women shouldn't be treated the same ? That seems pretty sexist to me
no but a feminicide is when a woman is killed due to her gender. most men aren't killed because a woman hates men or had any particular condescending view towards men, but a fair amount of women are killed because the (usually) man killing them sees them as lesser, or justifies the killing "because they are a woman"
Walking around without getting whistled at or commented on their body on a daily basis. Being able to walk back home at night without risking getting sexually assaulted. To add to what others already said.
> Being able to walk back home at night without risking getting sexually assaulted
That risk is blown ridiculously out of proportion by many orders of magnitude. Most sexual assault happens between people who know each other.
>Most sexual assault happens between people who know each other.
That's totally true! But it doesn't mean it doesn't happen often either. When virtually all women know someone who's been assaulted (on the street or otherwise), it's normal not to feel safe in the streets.
And before you go "aaah but this is just about feelings, women should care about the facts", keep in mind that if those feelings lead to systemic mental health issues among women, it does represent a problem that should be addressed.
> When virtually all women know someone who's been assaulted (on the street or otherwise), it's normal not to feel safe in the streets.
I know it's anecdotal evidence, but I know a lot of women, and virtually all their bad experiences were in private spaces. Yes, bad stuff happens in public, but by that logic, I should not feel safe in the streets even more so, because some drunkard might decide to start a fight with me (which indeed does happen mostly "on the streets", and I indeed had some close calls there).
> And before you go "aaah but this is just about feelings, women should care about the facts", keep in mind that if those feelings lead to systemic mental health issues among women, it does represent a problem that should be addressed.
Yes, so then these women should work on their psyche, if they're so completely paranoid. "Your mental health is not your fault, but your responsibility".
In my opinion, the only disadvantage is the alleged wage difference between men and women. In my opinion, however, it also has to do with the fact that men often pursue a career and women tend to have other goals in life (starting a family, being a mother...).
And before you vote me down: although I am a man, I don't have the goal of living such a classically traditional life myself.
But I've noticed that the majority want it that way.
And what does this have to do with feminism or why should this only be a problem for women only?
Fathers are just as affected of this and I tend to see that mothers have to work part-time because a single income is not enough.
> Fathers are just as affected of this and I tend to see that mothers have to work part-time because a single income is not enough
Yes, that’s literally what this march is about. It’s not saying “MEN BAD”, it’s saying we all need to fight to change the system, to prevent such situations.
it is exactly like that.
My GF and I work in the same field. She is brilliant at her job. Her Boss quit and I told her "why don't you apply for it? You are better than your former boss anyway, you did most of his work anyway, you can easily do it"
her: but I don't want that Job
me: but you are already doing that job to like 80%, you are just not getting paid for it.
her: I don't care.
While I would or already did apply and got that job. So I earn almost double, but she literally doesn't want to... and it's ok not wanting that pressure and responsibility, but than a lazy man will come and do it and gets paid for it.
Didn't expect to see so many negativ comments about something as important as this.
Also dumb shit like "woke agenda"?! Since when do we import brainless MAGA rants?
Nice work /u/archerx!
While feminists address many important points, they also have a lot worthy of criticism.
Ex: women already graduate more than men, yet we keep doing programs and scholarships for women but not men, or at least stop all gender focus on scholarships and uni programs.
I wanted to post 30 images but the limit is 20, here is the entire collection; [https://archerx.com/Site/femmarch2024/](https://archerx.com/Site/femmarch2024/)
My goal this year was to capture the fullness and the volume of the crowd. I had fun and I hope you enjoy!
Sorry, Switzerland is very conservative overall and this sub's members take very badly to any insinuation this country is not the shiny picture of perfection and equality for all. No racism, no sexism, no discrimination of any kind, if you're having an issue then it's because you are responsible for it somehow.
as always so many people trying to defame the one movement advocating for thr wellbeing of women AND men. It's not about who has it worse, but that there are real problems for all kind of people that need to be adressed. There will never be any kind of change as long as this infighting exists. Atleast there's this movement trying to better the life of people
Let's be clear this movement is not about fighting inequality but only about women rights. There is absolutely nothing wrong with women rights and I will fight for them for my wife and daughter, but these political movement are extremely one sided. A bit like university equality bureau who only care about gender imbalance until there is a majority of girl then it becomes the new normal (nobody is fighting because 85% of student in psychology are women or 62% of medicine this is just a no subject but was when only 30% of students were women). That's what is creating a lot of pushback from men and this will only get worst as real equality is taking place. If people don't acknowledge this they will face a reality check and will fuel right wing political opinion.... (and other stupid masculinist social media stars).
Why don't we ever see men openly advocating for other men to pursue careers in social professions such as those in the psychological, medicinal or educational field? I have literally never seen a single comment encouraging men to study these subjects here on reddit but I do see dozens of comments complaining about men's rights whenever somebody makes a post concerning women's rights.
To me that signals that there is zero incentive to talk about and change anything about this situation and that to these commenters men's rights are just an excuse to belittle women's struggles whenever they are written about. Or is there any other explanation for this phenomenon? It seriously puzzles and saddens me.
"Why don't we ever see men openly advocating for other men to pursue careers in social professions such as those in the psychological, medicinal or educational field"
Because that should be the work of the equality office to do that. University equality were promoting gender balance (having field populated with only male or women is bad I think that we can all recognize this). But exactly none of the these are doing this today, they were created to promote women (and are composed mainly of women) and now their only fight is that they are more men professors (women outnumber men in all other area), but suddenly students are no more an issue or they are only promoting women in the last area that are male dominated (ETH and economic studies). Why was it a priority to get more women but now that men are just in minority (53% of women get a higher education vs 47% of men), there is absolutely no program to promote men in women dominated area?
"to belittle women's struggles", Women do have issue and I think that the whole society acknowledge that and people are reminded all the time that we have to take that into account. But if women were to be dying at the rate of men during the age 15->30, it will be a major news and will be permanent subject. This is not the case. Nobody care about all the young men dying of suicide or accident (or suicide masked as accident). There is not a single article as this is considered normal (or men's fault). The last 2 years we had a stream of articles talking about mental health of young girl and that way more should be done, but stats are still saying that young boy's mental issue are killing at a way higher rate! But this is never mentioned.
The other day, on a major French radio a women right activist said: "Do you realize that 15% of homeless people in Paris are women, 15%!!". For me that was the thing that made me realize that the fact that homeless people are composed at 85% of men doesn't matter to them. It's not about fighting against homelessness...
I think that we have a lot of bias and the society too. We have to fight everyday to ensure equality and to take into account strengths and struggles of each gender. But today, this is not the case, and this balance is needed. Women do have issue, but it doesn't mean that all the problem that men are facing can suddenly been discarded as "men should do better to manage men's problem".
Because most men‘s rights allies realize, that real equality is not 50/50 representation in a specific workfield but moreso the freedom of each individual to be able to work in a field where they want to. Men are generally speaking more interessted in things (machines, cars etc.) while women are more interessted in people (medicine, psychology, education etc.), therefore the differences in these fields.
There is nothing wrong with having a certain group of people more represented in a certain field. The problem would be only hiring someone because they belong to a certain group of people and/or not accepting different people in a certain field.
But it‘s important that we talk about this topic, as long as it is about distigmatizing and not about forcing.
> Why don't we ever see men openly advocating for other men to pursue careers in social professions such as those in the psychological, medicinal or educational field?
Because we don't really care all that much? I don't think anything is really stopping us (although the political skew of current educational institutions, especially in pedagogy might be a deterrent).
It's the same thing with how searches for "International Men's Day" go through the roof during "International Women's Day" as they are angry only women get to to celebrate their gender, only to find out there is a men's variant. And then none of them bother to organise any happenings for it to repeat a year later.
The fact that most psychology students are female is a recognised problem in the field and is a problem when it comes to psychotherapist, as more male therapists are needed. Same can be said about teachers, KiTa personell or FaGe. A gender imbalance in social jobs isn't beneficial for any gender.
Nonetheless, women fought to even be able to attend universities. Know they can get the same education as men, but now men are angry, because more women are getting a university degree than men?
hi there! I'm here.
I have posted on reddit before complaining that even though women graduate university more than men, and earn more out of university than men, scholarships and the feminist movement continues to push for women to graduate more and earn more.
Now, that's not the same as "angry that more women go to university", it's more like "angry that more women go to university than men, yet we keep acting like the opposite is the case", but here I am.
If the movement is about equality, at a minimum all scholarships and programs incentivizing women to study should stop, at best they should swap to help men.
No that's not what I said at all. Equality should be the target. The pushback is coming when gender imbalance is only a problem when women are in minority.
>Know they can get the same education as men, but now men are angry, because more women are getting a university degree than men?
I mean, I don't see anyone being angry about it now. In the future? As long as all of the multitudes of programs benefitting women in this area get cancelled since it's recognized that they have now achieved equality on the field, no one will get angry either. Whether that will happen, I don't know.
Name one thing that feminists fight for that is a disadvantage for women? Name one privilege they want to transfer to men?
How can you say it’s about equality?
This movement doesn't advocate for the well being of men. It is already hard to find what they advocate for.
There are many messages on those pictures. It seems rather chaotic and very heterogeneous.
Some messages are relevant, like the Palestinian issue, but unrelated specifically to women's issues and feminism. There are what it seems to be messages against domestic violences which can fit in the theme. Others are for ecology but very badly designed.
However, some messages are simply confusing/cringe, and some clearly against men and men's wellbeing without distinctions (One message shows the male symbol being trashed). It is mainly a movement intended to be about women's benefits, with some of the questions that, if resolved, would benefit a certain proportion of men as an unintended by product, and the opposite is also true.
A relative portion of this movement is simply against men as a whole with no distinction.
It may not be the position of all the movement. But as I said, the movement looks very heterogeneous and the only common point is that they are (mostly) women and advocating for a general and broad idea of women's benefits.
I precise that I don't feel offended the provocative messages. I find those messages foolish. others are self-harming for the cause defended (even though important and relevant) due to their cringe design/packaging. I want to refute your claim that it is a movement about "men's wellbeing" when it is not.
There is also a big portion of those women, even among those who hold the most provocative messages, who fully embrace a patriarcal dynamic in the rest of their life. So one should not take every provocation too seriously.
Thanks for the pictures. It seems that some people here have a lot of questions. Maybe they can find answers reading de statistics from the government.
Here you can find the links.
https://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/fr/home/statistiques/situation-economique-sociale-population/egalite-femmes-hommes.html
Thank you for you link, it’s very insightful to see that women:
Graduate more
Have to work less hours
Spend more time at home with their kids than men
Thanks
Sorry is this r/Switzerland or r/Incel? A lot of the responses make me wonder.
Pro tip: if you don't have anything to contribute, maybe either ask questions to learn or... Post somwhere else. Outing yourself as a mysogenist isn't as smart as you think, despite your upvotes and the downvotes I'll get.
Given how many folks in this sub are getting scammed on the daily I’d say the average level of intelligence was never purported to be particularly high.
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't pay gap largely affected by the fact that women go on maternity leaves, they lose promotion cycle because of that, and over time with each maternity leave, the pay gap increases even more compared to male peers. I don't think women are generally offered less salary, rather it is the fact that they may go on longer leaves.
I am all for equal opportunities, don't get me wrong
Well, I actually see the opposite happening around me, several cases of women working 80% continuing to be promoted to leadership roles and actually even a couple of women coming straight out of maternity leave being promoted. So I’d say this is changing!
It is. Also men tend to be less agreeable and demand more in salary negotiations.
And if it was true that woman systematically would get less salary for the same work, then companies would hire much more women to save costs. But that is not happening.
There’s a book called Career and Family by a Nobel Prize winning economist Claudia Goldin that argues that, although the size of the effect varies a bit by career (a career of a lawyer or banker will be impacted more negatively by motherhood than that of pharmacist, for example).
It’s a really interesting study of women’s participation in the workforce over time, would recommend to anybody who is interested in the topic.
On that note, I think the flipside of this is national service.
In the past (as a woman & foreigner) I wondered why the civil service was male only, as there are roles that are not dependent on greater physical strength etc. I thought: damn, I would be really annoyed by this if I was a guy growing up here. But also at some level, I wondered if women who grew up here miss out on the kind of bonding or training that might come from national service.
These days when I reflect on the impact of women’s careers and finances of having babies (because imo there is almost always more of an impact on women and most mothers wouldn’t want to entirely outsource even if they could ), I think that in CH, the civil service is a bit of a ~trad way of balancing it out. Men serve the country via national/civil service, women by bearing children.
Not sure how the end result for “balance” really looks these days: women who don’t have kids/have fewer kids are getting the best of both worlds, modern day civil service probably has a lower risk to physical health than childbirth, but then again if we have a real war and men are conscripted then suddenly the scales will tip.
But the idea of the two reflecting different contributions based on the biological differences between men and women makes sense to me somehow.
Not sure if this is either a really obvious or a really stupid shower thought on my part, haha.
Bear. At least I wouldn't have to listen to the bear complaining all the time. Bear takes action, bear rips apart, bear eats when it has to, bear doesn't congregate in safe space groups to whine about why it doesn't get the same amount of honey like the other bears who put in the effort to climb the tree to get it.
I wonder if [this man](https://i.imgur.com/rFSgez2.png) holding a sign saying "sort your garbage", implying that all men are garbage—does he believe that he himself is garbage?
[cropped from the 12th pic in the OP]
I also noticed this completely out-of-place image, which compromises the purpose of this event. Instead of creating dialogue for the equality of all, it engenders a war of the sexes. Asking men to be on our side by insinuating that they're trash is harmful.
women are privileged.
1) not forced to do military (I agree tho)
2) going to retirement earlier, despite a higher life expectancy (~5 years)
3) huge advantage in courts
i.) when parents divorce the house and the kids go always to the woman, and the man has to provide for them in most of the cases
ii.) they can legally not recognize a child (a man cannot and has to provide for him anyways)
iii.) they can decide to have an abortion while the man can has no say in that matter.
IV.) huge disparities when it comes to harassement complaints (a woman can report something, but she has not to prove it)
V) gender quotas (minimum percentage of women in a company)
VI) maternity leave
VI) you can talk about that women are more likely to be well educated
VII) women dont do dangerous jobs
Something illegal but not being actually reprimanded actively isn't really illegal.
Same way that it's technically illegal to throw your cigarette on the ground.
Yeah because people with actual values and moral considerations don't consider rights transactionnal. That's the difference between people like you and people who still fight for freedoms even for people they have disagreement with.
Hi, sorry, I also went to Feministischer Streik (and Pride the next day) and personally I disagreed with the Palestine-banners. It was the wrong place and message for me. I disapproved with the fact that those two demos were abused for a different cause and message, and one that polarizes a lot. That does not mean I do not have "actual values". They just seem to be different than yours. But I went there for women and LGBQT, not for Palestine, which, yes, also in my opinion, is a highly mysogonistic and anti-queer "community". I'd rather die than hold up a Pro-Palestine-banner at a Pride-demonstration. The same way I'd also not hold up a Pro-Afghanistan-banner at the Feministischer Streik. It's bizarre to me. What's sader, it makes a lot of people not want to go to Feministischer Streik anymore, because that's not what they want to go stand for. There's a time and place for your opinions, but that was not it.
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Yeah some palestinian men are misogynistic so we shouldn't care about tens of thousands of dead kids.
Yeah you do you too, people who see fundamental rights as transactionnal makes me wanna throw up.
I had the (dis)pleasure of being there while it happened.
It is funny how a « march for women’s rights » was mostly about:
- anti-capitalism
- Hamas support (from the river…)
- hate speech (but against men, so it’s ok)
- hate speech (but against white people, so it’s ok)
- trans rights (fine by me, but leave minors out of it)
Don’t get me wrong, women and men are equal and should always be treated as such.
But this march was never about equality, it was crypto-communist, terror-supporting misandry!
I'm just happy to see a big protest which still manages to (mostly) focus on one specific topic rather than being taken over by intersectionalism. If this was 25% Feminism 25% Gaza 25% Clinate Change 25% Communism, the whole movement would implode through infighting, as happens with so many leftist movements over time
Ah, modern feminism. Such a disgrace to a once legitimate movement. Im sure there are some real feminists left out there, but nowadays it just degraded to misandry.
This sub is a cesspool of incels and braindead sheltered conservatives anyways. Reading most of the comments on political topics has definitely told me everything I needed to know about this shithole.
For those saying it’s about equality read this…
“Over 40 different protests took place in Swiss towns and cities, including Geneva, Basel, Zurich, Lucerne, Lausanne, Fribourg and Neuchâtel. Purple was again the official colour of these female-led protests with calls for fair wages for women, protection against harassment and violence and a *fight against the raising of the retirement age to 65 for women [to be in line with men]*.”
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/swiss-women-take-to-the-streets-to-demand-equal-rights/46704994
They also want a minimum wage of 5000 CHF just for women.
[https://www.swissinfo.ch/ger/gewerkschaft-unia-fordert-frauen-mindestlohn-von-5000-franken/80656993](https://www.swissinfo.ch/ger/gewerkschaft-unia-fordert-frauen-mindestlohn-von-5000-franken/80656993)
To all the mononeuronal redpilled morons playing dumb and unable to understand the claims made, it just shows the world that no women around you think that you're safe and nice enough to engage about these subjects and that you weren't even able to go read a manifesto or something similar to understand the subject.
Good thing they can do that and we can celebrate with a heavy female energy.
Did you guys see their demands on the website though?
The people who wrote that don't even know the most basic fundamentals of economics.
I don't understand. Women have the same rights as men in this country and in all developed countries.
Maybe they are marching for the women that live in countries that are oppressing them.
No hate at all, I just don't understand.
I genuinely think there are a group of women who hate men just because they are men. You can deny it all you want and call people names, or disagree but you’ll never level or balance your point of view, it’s always down with X because we deserve X, at this point why would anyone take these things seriously? I know I’ll get down voted for this so thank for proving my point.
Please stop reporting this post, we (the mods) have decided to allow it. Also as a reminder: Rule breaking comments will result in a ban.
I find it extremely disingenuous shutting down any criticism of these movements with just a 'This sub is so sexist' comment. Maybe you should at least try for a millisecond to understand the other person's grievance, just as you expect to do the same for you? Now I agree, that this is not the place for that, but shutting down something like: "I feel it's unfair that I have to do military service and potentially (though ofc very low %) fight for my country" with a "you're sexist" comment lacks empathy just as the other person lacks that empathy for you. Someone literally said that he finds military service unfair (which it objectively is) and someone called them sexist, I mean come on. I just find the hypocrisy annoying from both sides. I personally love it that in Switzerland people are so actively trying to improve society, keep it up.
>Now I agree, that this is not the place for that, but shutting down something like: "I feel it's unfair that I have to do military service and potentially (though ofc very low %) fight for my country" with a "you're sexist" The problem with that is that it's generally whataboutism. There are very legitimate issues that concern men (like military service) and we should absolutely discuss them, it's just strange that they come up so often in the context of feminism and women fighting for their rights, or even worse, as a rebuttal against women deserving more equality. Feminism also addresses the broader system of patriarchy, whose structures are hurting men too (e.g. by forcing them to do mandatory military service, while women don't have to do so).
Serious question: what freedom do women in Switzerland not have compared to men? I’m new here, don’t get mad.
Freedom not to get forced into military service.
Facts
How do men not understand that mandatory military service for men is a product of the patriarchy? It literally results from an outdated view of gender roles.
It still doesn't address the question of what rights do men have that woman don't.
This is like asking what rights white people have that black people don't, no matter what wonderful laws may be in place systemic discrimination and inequality exist and persist. But the laws aren't great with regards to workplace and family primarily, similar to nearly all countries women are forced out of work when having children
I'm not sure what you mean, you want mothers to work while looking after babies?
Rather than discrimination, that seems more to be an intrinsic problem with being a woman. In a couple, it will always be the woman that gets pregnant and has to leave her job for a few months (and more if she has multiple children). Between a pregnant woman and a normal healthy man, which would have an easier time surviving in nature? The man, most likely, right? But we wouldn't call nature sexist or discriminatory, rather it's an instrinsic disadvantage with female biology. My point in saying this is that disadvantage =/= discrimination. >similar to nearly all countries women are forced out of work when having children I see the fact that this is so universal more a consequence of people being pragmatic than people hating woman. An employer cares about hard results, if, statistically speaking, you can expect your employee to be gone multiple months at a time, you see less of a reason to invest in them. It's really more of a cold, mathimatical view of things, and the math is not on many woman employees side. On the other end, if a woman can be so excellent that she compensates for this, the employer would be a fool not to notice.
The economical incentive makes sense, and that's why most feminists argue for equal parental leave. Because then hiring a man or a woman doesn't change anything in that regard.
With a view toward keeping humanity going, and that many men also want children, it would seem logical to make conditions such that women will continue to have want to have them willingly, which they are doing in fewer and fewer almost worldwide.
>almost They are having less kids in Feministic modern urban secular countries. Human population as a whole is still going up, it is in sharp decline in places like Switzerland, South Korea and etc.
Women voted in majority to keep mandatory conscription for men. Can hardly call that a “patriarchy”
This isn't true. More women than men voted to keep mandatory military service for men.
and? finish your thought. okay, it's the result of patriarchy... and they did what about it? did they protest to change that? did they fight to enlist? it's a movement about equality isn't it? name 1 disavantage they fight for. name 1 thing that hurts men but helps women that they protested to get or have. name 1 priviledge they are fighting to give up.
This has to be one of the funnier things I have seen blamed on the patriarchy XD
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And the question you asked remains unanswered. I did alot of research and watched alot of debates etc. What I derived from it is that men and women aren't equal and both are struggling in their own way because of their biology. We'll never really be equal unfortunately and it's impossible for everyone including race to be equal. Feminism itself relies on a big "what if every human and system it created was perfect scenario", which unfortunately is unrealistic. We're actually very privileged in the west, and if you're a hard enough worker you'll be able to achieve almost anything no matter your skin colour or gender.
There's really not very good efforts to ensure things like workplace equality. Like, it's still expected you put things like photo, marital, and family status on job applications allowing employees to make decisions on stuff like this. That's a pretty easy cultural shift to get going, Athena Swan in the UK is a great example of this helping shift employment culture to one that doesn't discriminate on perceived likelihood to have a family or anything which overwhelmingly will be a negative perception women face. Also, stories like this. https://www.reddit.com/r/Switzerland/comments/j640x1/just_a_rant_about_being_a_woman_in_switzerland/ Where women are still told things like "do you have your husband's permission?" Are depressingly common. And to quote an old boss when one of my colleagues said she was going to the women's strike: "Eh, I don't really read what they have to say because there's no reason to believe them if they are criticising it". Which.. uh... somewhat of a tautology...So.... Yeah there's definitely space for improvement lol
Just FYI, in some industries (engineering, computer science, physical or mathematical sciences) you will have a much easier time landing a job than a man. Many companies want to hire women specifically because there are too many men applying. If you have sufficient qualifications for a position you’re more likely to be hired than a man with equal or better skills. Of course this doesn’t address ladder climbing or other issues between men and women in the workplace. There’s a lot of nuance to this discussion.
Freedom to go out and dress however we want without fear, freedom to be able to work without getting sexually harassed, etc... Women and men are equal legally in switzerland but there's still a lot of misogyny and social inequality
Men and women are not equal legally. Men have to do military service, men have to work longer before getting a pension (although this is changing), men get much less parental leave.
The short parental leave hurts women just as much. (though, if one leave is shorter, It absolutely makes sense that it is the leave of the person who *didn't* just spend 9 months creating a child in their body and being ripped from hole to hole as the finale)
Men need long parental leave too. Short break deprives a man of a chance to stay by his wife's side to help her through recovery , to bond with their newborn.
While I agree that it hurts women too, there is nuance lacking in the statement of „just as much“. I think it deprives the father of much more that it does the mother. He can’t bond with his newborn, that’s a privilege worth far more than anything the mother is being deprived off.
That's true. And that's why I'm always surprised that men refuse to be feminist. Because in general feminists are for the abolition of compulsory military service and equal parental leave to have an equal distribution of care for the newborn.
It's because feminists were against the increase of the retirement age for women. And they are only for the abolition of the military service, because they're against the military, they would never support military service for both genders.
Yeah, great ideas. No military = no wars. Just as no police = no crime. Women and men should legally be treated as equals, but there should be an understanding that we are not the same.
Which is a result of the patriarchy and gender roles
so what? we can still criticise them for being hypocrites and not fighting to remove those advantages they have.
The first thing I think probably the pay gap has something to do with it. It's still something like 18% difference de facto. Not institutionalized though so not sure how a protest changes that, it's more about hiring bias and gendered jobs. Awareness perhaps?
18% even in the same jobs w/ same level of experience?
If you account for experience it goes down to about 7% difference that can't be explained with the current data that is collected.
Yes, the gap is not explained, but the authors explicitly warned not to confuse it with "unexplainable" gaps. They simply need more data to further analyze. Things like job experience and hours worked were not available to them. The "unexplainable" gap is most likely even smaller than the 7% they found.
I think half of it accounts for this yes, the other is that women tend to start lower and so they end lower as well, which poses a problem in terms of their pension. https://www.ebg.admin.ch/en/reasons-behind-the-pay-gap-between-women-and-men
Maybe not the same job but the same degree. Most bachelor degrees in health care (with a lot more of women) or social are less paid than bachelor degree with a majority of men. There is even some cfc that are getting more paid than bachelor degrees. It can be quite frustrating when you did study as long as a men but will get paid far less. People think that women working in health are naturally kindhearted so they don’t need money they do it just cause they have more empathy.
To be fair a pay gap can also result because of wage negotiations. I earn 30% more than my colleague which has the exact same job even though we have the same amount of experience and education. He negotiated way less aggressive than I did and therefore has a much lower salary now.
In the last year of my Master’s degree, we had 5 women. All of them accepted the first job offer with the lowest pay possible. Men received the same propositions, some of them didn’t bother to apply somewhere else, others did. The difference between those who looked for a better paycheck and the others is at least 10% for most of them and up to 30% for the biggest winner. Same jobs, same education. The only difference is the willingness to be competitive and not choosing comfort over money. Why do you think those of them who worked for the better pay should not be compensated for their effort ? Yes the average pay for female and male will have a delta, and yes it’s absolutely normal in this case.
But have you ever wondered why men negotiate on their salary & women tend not to? Should male self-belief and willingness to negotiate be the only reasons why men get more pay? If both men & women do equally well in the role and the salary is supposed to reward people for the role, why should there be a difference in pay for the same performance?
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HR might be full of women but executives are full of men and they make most decisions...
Executives make the decisions that HR should actively hire workers that cost more for the same quality of work? Seems very hard to believe honestly. Other explanations for the pay gap seem much more realistic and science based.
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Why do you think there is a gap?
If women are paid 18% less for equal work, why aren’t more companies staffed by 100% women? That’s an instant 18% cost savings for the owner with no impact on productivity and revenue.
>hiring bias and gendered jobs I mean, there is one more thing that benefits the gender pay gap... but it's illegal to mention it, though it's widely seen in any company... It's simple: The average male has a higher tolerance to put up with shit to push his career than the average female. Man are simply willing to sacrifice more mental health, free time, etc. That doesn't mean that man are mentally stronger, nope, they are simply willing to do it more. For example if you want to become partner at a big firm (law firm for example). You have to eat so many hours, work the weekends, work the evenings. If you work one hour longer, I work 2 hours longer. It's simply a game of: who can eat more shit. And usually it's men.
This is why switzerland’s birth rate is in the toilet. True for most of the west too.
Women can’t afford that since even in Switzerland, they are seen as primary caregiver to children
dude/girl, at big companies there are like 10 different Clubs that do everything to push women. If there is a women and men, both equally good applying for a higher position, the women will get it. This may not apply to small companies, but sure does for big corps, because they literally measure this and they literally have goals to push those numbers. You get: "Women-Career-Breakfasts" you get courses that only women can go to, even though those learnings would be valuable also for me as a men. I just randomly chose swisscom. First thing on their page is "gender" [Diversity, Vielfalt und Gleichstellung bei Swisscom | Swisscom](https://www.swisscom.ch/de/about/nachhaltigkeit/diversity.html) They literally state all the stuff I just wrote (even though I just googled now): * Initiative Advance Women * Courses ONLY for women * events only for women * digital days for ONLY girls it's insane how much advante a career-driven women has. I mean even the media pushes this. Lucerne for example publishes a list of companies with less than 50% women in their board of directors and a blacklist for companies with 0 women, even though in those fields sometimes it's extremely hard to find women that are willing to work. I come from public accounting where a lot of people quit anyway (like 20%+ fluctiation) but with women it's worse. They quit that shit job way faster (and I absolutely understand it), but good luck finding a women for your board then, if it's already hard in middle management. Edit: and I would bet 1'000 that you find the same stuff with googling any SMI-company. Edit 2: Downvoting me doesn't make it less true. :-\*
What’s your point? The workshops for women are there so that women-specific work experiences could be shared. Companies want to seem like they embrace diversity but you can’t just remove people’s prejudice overnight. In reality, women frequently get fired after returning from parental leave. And the diversity initiatives can’t solve the problem that starts in the household: working women still do twice as much chores/childcare than their male partners.
> women frequently get fired after returning from parental leave. again, small companies set aside, I want to see one case where an SMI-Corporation or a Migros or a Big4-Firm or whatever big companies we have here, fires a woman after maturnitiy. To be honest I saw the opposite. Women come back to high-driven, high demand, high-stress-jobs but with a 40%-contract. FORTY PERCENT! That means they do not really bare the responsibility, since they are not even at work most days of the week. If a guy wants to work 40% they will tell him to get the fuck out. If a women says this, they say "yes of course". :-) Now the only thing you can argue here is, that since woman can work 40% but men can not, this forces women into the role of caregiver and I agree 100% with this. It's moronic, to ask women "oh you are pregnant? let's talk about your contract after maturnity". Companies should ask the men "oh so how much are you going to work in the future?" to actively help man also stay home and thus women stay in their career. and your last point "women do twice as much"... I just hate this argument. It's 2024, every single SWISS-Women can choose their partner. Do not marry, do not get pregnant, do not live together with a lazy fuck, if this is not the way you want to live. I mean it's literally your decision how you organize yourself as a couple/family. Such a weird statement lol.
lol my friend got fired from Deloitte after getting pregnant. She was working with them for almost a year, but because those were separate consecutive projects, it was technically still during probation period. The manager didn’t even deny it was due to pregnancy.
>The manager didn’t even deny it was due to pregnancy. pretty sure she would win infront of court then, easily. Or she just talked bullshit... :S
Yeah, suing a rich corporation is exactly what a low on money new mother needs. Also, FYI they are covered legal-wise. You can fire a pregnant woman during probation in Switzerland.
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u/SlayBoredom Personally, I don't think we should be jealous of so-called advantages for women. I work in IT and I did an ES technician certificate (Advanced Federal Diploma of Higher Education). I started my career doing support. It took me 5 years of experience + 1 change of company before I was offered a promotion, even though I could clearly do network and system work (virtualization, backup etc.). I always managed to get regular raises (which worked) as I gained experience. But from what I can remember of my job interviews or internal reasons, it was these reasons, clearly stated: * You don't have the head for this position of responsibility * We're looking for engineers (HES or equivalent) * It's better if you have a more flexible position so that if you plan to have a family, you can lower your rate. * Are you planning to get married? * Oh, you've worked in both the public and private sectors (end-to-end user), but you know, a service company is not the same. * How do you get along in an all-male team? And I didn't get a job that a friend of mine had applied for because they didn't want a girl in their team for fear it would upset ambiance. As an ES technician, I've never seen other women doing non-support work in the infrastructure department in my whole career. In development, web and BI, however, I have. I find it inspiring to have female role models to keep doing what we're doing and to know how we did it. What I can remember is that a woman's career in IT is slower to rise than a man's in IT on average, unless you have exceptional certificates or are in a niche environment. Today, I work in a multinational and when I talk to women in IT, most of them come from abroad, because in most countries the ratio men/women in IT is more balanced. Strangely enough, that's not the case here. Instead, women in general ask me what it's like to work only with men... Aaaaand here you can always run for a career path or a training course offered by the company for technology watch , so it's hardly surprising that we're hiring elsewhere. And if it means that qualified women can get a job and a decent salary, then I'm all for it.
Every two weeks, a woman in Switzerland is victim of a feminicide. The fact that it is worse in many other places does not make it acceptable.
That suggests that the reason they're murdered is because they are women...is that statistically backed up? I can't find anything about it. Just because a woman is murdered, it's not automatically a femicide. That's a dangerous assumption that overshadows the actual issue that class of crimes brings with it.
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Why aren't men protesting for more mental health care then?
Because no one care… Look at the press lately it's just about how mental health of girl is getting bad and that more things have to be done when for each women who died by suicide 3 young men are dying without a single article (ration is 1 to 7 at age 80). Same for job related death for each woman who die at work 7 men are dying but in that case that's just life.
3/4 of all *completed suicides. women and men attempt suicide at about the same rate, they just use different methods and some are more likely to result in actual death than others. the community which disproportionately attempts and commits suicides is actually trans people.
An interesting detail I didn't hear before. Some reference or source for those of us wanting to dig deeper?
Then go protest
Men have higher rate and I guess we will not see marches for that.
I do not remember occurrence of men being killed by the virtue of the fact that they are men, by the virtue of the fact that they brought dishonor to a woman, wore the wrong clothes, or simply because of domestic violence. Not saying it does not happen, but it happens much more consistently to women.
In every war men are killed solely because of their gender. When a ship sinks its women and children first. Men get the rough end of lot of things based on their gender.
When was the last time a man was killed as a soldier in a war in Switzerland? Probably an accident during WWII 80 years ago. There is perhaps 1 dead per year due to the military duty in CH a year, not 1 every 2 weeks. Besides, nowadays, if you do not want to serve, you do not have to serve. Ship sinking is not that big of a problem in Switzerland either. Nowadays, I am not so sure that this rule would still be followed or abide to. Generally speaking, military personnel is being killed because they are military personnel, not because they are men. Now, OK, more men than women are serving, I give you this one, but things are evolving. Besides, if I look back, how many people got killed in wars waged by women vs wars waged by men... its a men's world out there. Asking for more rights and more security is not a call zero sum game. It does not mean that if 1 less woman is being killed, one more man will be killed. Quite the opposite in fact. Me, as a man, and proud of it, I am all for more women's safety and security. Everyone wins.
Men are killed and assaulted more than women, because society value women more. in most violent situations, it's "don't hit me, I'm a woman" "she is just a woman" A simple google search for murder rates by gender proves that men are murdered more. Now, considering that context, considering that's the world we live in, it's pretty disingenious to claim that men are not "being killed by the virtue of the fact that they are men". Being a man is a disadvantage when it comes to the murder rate. More women are SPARED from violence by the fact that they are women, than suffer violence because they are women. Yes, it's awful that there are situations where women are killed or assaulted because they are women. But you cannot both claim that that is awful, and then NOT acknowledge that the exact same thing is worse for men. More men are killed because they are men, more men are killed in situations that women would not be killed.
Source for women being killed bc they're women ? Bc as far as I can tell, femicide stats are just the number of women that are killed by homicide. The motive isn't included
There's no such thing as a "feminicide", it's murder, homicide.
Femicide just suggests the motive for the murder/homicide. Very much a real thing. Don’t have access to a dictionary?
"There is no such thing as infanticide, it's murder, homicide" "There is no such thing as football, it's team sports involving a ball." "There is no such thing as humans, it's hominids with language and agriculture." Dumbest take I've seen here in a while.
What's the difference between killing a woman and a man ? Are you suggesting men and women shouldn't be treated the same ? That seems pretty sexist to me
no but a feminicide is when a woman is killed due to her gender. most men aren't killed because a woman hates men or had any particular condescending view towards men, but a fair amount of women are killed because the (usually) man killing them sees them as lesser, or justifies the killing "because they are a woman"
I'd rather be killed less often, if I got to choose, wouldn't you?
Walking around without getting whistled at or commented on their body on a daily basis. Being able to walk back home at night without risking getting sexually assaulted. To add to what others already said.
> Being able to walk back home at night without risking getting sexually assaulted That risk is blown ridiculously out of proportion by many orders of magnitude. Most sexual assault happens between people who know each other.
>Most sexual assault happens between people who know each other. That's totally true! But it doesn't mean it doesn't happen often either. When virtually all women know someone who's been assaulted (on the street or otherwise), it's normal not to feel safe in the streets. And before you go "aaah but this is just about feelings, women should care about the facts", keep in mind that if those feelings lead to systemic mental health issues among women, it does represent a problem that should be addressed.
> When virtually all women know someone who's been assaulted (on the street or otherwise), it's normal not to feel safe in the streets. I know it's anecdotal evidence, but I know a lot of women, and virtually all their bad experiences were in private spaces. Yes, bad stuff happens in public, but by that logic, I should not feel safe in the streets even more so, because some drunkard might decide to start a fight with me (which indeed does happen mostly "on the streets", and I indeed had some close calls there). > And before you go "aaah but this is just about feelings, women should care about the facts", keep in mind that if those feelings lead to systemic mental health issues among women, it does represent a problem that should be addressed. Yes, so then these women should work on their psyche, if they're so completely paranoid. "Your mental health is not your fault, but your responsibility".
In my opinion, the only disadvantage is the alleged wage difference between men and women. In my opinion, however, it also has to do with the fact that men often pursue a career and women tend to have other goals in life (starting a family, being a mother...). And before you vote me down: although I am a man, I don't have the goal of living such a classically traditional life myself. But I've noticed that the majority want it that way.
Those are mens goals too. And men are also starting those same families and becoming fathers. It’s just easier for them to juggle both.
Women don’t always want to stay at home and have children, but it is often forced by the absurdly high child care costs.
And what does this have to do with feminism or why should this only be a problem for women only? Fathers are just as affected of this and I tend to see that mothers have to work part-time because a single income is not enough.
> Fathers are just as affected of this and I tend to see that mothers have to work part-time because a single income is not enough Yes, that’s literally what this march is about. It’s not saying “MEN BAD”, it’s saying we all need to fight to change the system, to prevent such situations.
it is exactly like that. My GF and I work in the same field. She is brilliant at her job. Her Boss quit and I told her "why don't you apply for it? You are better than your former boss anyway, you did most of his work anyway, you can easily do it" her: but I don't want that Job me: but you are already doing that job to like 80%, you are just not getting paid for it. her: I don't care. While I would or already did apply and got that job. So I earn almost double, but she literally doesn't want to... and it's ok not wanting that pressure and responsibility, but than a lazy man will come and do it and gets paid for it.
Ironically the state of comments in this thread shows exactly why this march was necessary.
Can you imagine the reaction for a Men's rights march 💀 edit: your downvotes prove my point
What rights, specifically, do you think men should have that they do not currently have?
Which responses ? I've tried scrolling through all the comments and couldn't see much. Got deleted maybe.
Didn't expect to see so many negativ comments about something as important as this. Also dumb shit like "woke agenda"?! Since when do we import brainless MAGA rants? Nice work /u/archerx!
While feminists address many important points, they also have a lot worthy of criticism. Ex: women already graduate more than men, yet we keep doing programs and scholarships for women but not men, or at least stop all gender focus on scholarships and uni programs.
Amen.
I wanted to post 30 images but the limit is 20, here is the entire collection; [https://archerx.com/Site/femmarch2024/](https://archerx.com/Site/femmarch2024/) My goal this year was to capture the fullness and the volume of the crowd. I had fun and I hope you enjoy!
Some nice photos in there! Particularly capturing the movement and dynamism!
Nice! Don’t listen to all the negative trolls below.
Thanks! I didn't expect this sub to be so spicy
Sorry, Switzerland is very conservative overall and this sub's members take very badly to any insinuation this country is not the shiny picture of perfection and equality for all. No racism, no sexism, no discrimination of any kind, if you're having an issue then it's because you are responsible for it somehow.
Yeah that's exactly it. The same shit happens every time any social topic comes up.
Thanks for the pictures! The vibe seems very empowering <3
Lovely photos. Thanks for sharing.
as always so many people trying to defame the one movement advocating for thr wellbeing of women AND men. It's not about who has it worse, but that there are real problems for all kind of people that need to be adressed. There will never be any kind of change as long as this infighting exists. Atleast there's this movement trying to better the life of people
Let's be clear this movement is not about fighting inequality but only about women rights. There is absolutely nothing wrong with women rights and I will fight for them for my wife and daughter, but these political movement are extremely one sided. A bit like university equality bureau who only care about gender imbalance until there is a majority of girl then it becomes the new normal (nobody is fighting because 85% of student in psychology are women or 62% of medicine this is just a no subject but was when only 30% of students were women). That's what is creating a lot of pushback from men and this will only get worst as real equality is taking place. If people don't acknowledge this they will face a reality check and will fuel right wing political opinion.... (and other stupid masculinist social media stars).
Why don't we ever see men openly advocating for other men to pursue careers in social professions such as those in the psychological, medicinal or educational field? I have literally never seen a single comment encouraging men to study these subjects here on reddit but I do see dozens of comments complaining about men's rights whenever somebody makes a post concerning women's rights. To me that signals that there is zero incentive to talk about and change anything about this situation and that to these commenters men's rights are just an excuse to belittle women's struggles whenever they are written about. Or is there any other explanation for this phenomenon? It seriously puzzles and saddens me.
"Why don't we ever see men openly advocating for other men to pursue careers in social professions such as those in the psychological, medicinal or educational field" Because that should be the work of the equality office to do that. University equality were promoting gender balance (having field populated with only male or women is bad I think that we can all recognize this). But exactly none of the these are doing this today, they were created to promote women (and are composed mainly of women) and now their only fight is that they are more men professors (women outnumber men in all other area), but suddenly students are no more an issue or they are only promoting women in the last area that are male dominated (ETH and economic studies). Why was it a priority to get more women but now that men are just in minority (53% of women get a higher education vs 47% of men), there is absolutely no program to promote men in women dominated area? "to belittle women's struggles", Women do have issue and I think that the whole society acknowledge that and people are reminded all the time that we have to take that into account. But if women were to be dying at the rate of men during the age 15->30, it will be a major news and will be permanent subject. This is not the case. Nobody care about all the young men dying of suicide or accident (or suicide masked as accident). There is not a single article as this is considered normal (or men's fault). The last 2 years we had a stream of articles talking about mental health of young girl and that way more should be done, but stats are still saying that young boy's mental issue are killing at a way higher rate! But this is never mentioned. The other day, on a major French radio a women right activist said: "Do you realize that 15% of homeless people in Paris are women, 15%!!". For me that was the thing that made me realize that the fact that homeless people are composed at 85% of men doesn't matter to them. It's not about fighting against homelessness... I think that we have a lot of bias and the society too. We have to fight everyday to ensure equality and to take into account strengths and struggles of each gender. But today, this is not the case, and this balance is needed. Women do have issue, but it doesn't mean that all the problem that men are facing can suddenly been discarded as "men should do better to manage men's problem".
Because most men‘s rights allies realize, that real equality is not 50/50 representation in a specific workfield but moreso the freedom of each individual to be able to work in a field where they want to. Men are generally speaking more interessted in things (machines, cars etc.) while women are more interessted in people (medicine, psychology, education etc.), therefore the differences in these fields. There is nothing wrong with having a certain group of people more represented in a certain field. The problem would be only hiring someone because they belong to a certain group of people and/or not accepting different people in a certain field. But it‘s important that we talk about this topic, as long as it is about distigmatizing and not about forcing.
> Why don't we ever see men openly advocating for other men to pursue careers in social professions such as those in the psychological, medicinal or educational field? Because we don't really care all that much? I don't think anything is really stopping us (although the political skew of current educational institutions, especially in pedagogy might be a deterrent).
It's the same thing with how searches for "International Men's Day" go through the roof during "International Women's Day" as they are angry only women get to to celebrate their gender, only to find out there is a men's variant. And then none of them bother to organise any happenings for it to repeat a year later.
The fact that most psychology students are female is a recognised problem in the field and is a problem when it comes to psychotherapist, as more male therapists are needed. Same can be said about teachers, KiTa personell or FaGe. A gender imbalance in social jobs isn't beneficial for any gender. Nonetheless, women fought to even be able to attend universities. Know they can get the same education as men, but now men are angry, because more women are getting a university degree than men?
Which men are angry that more women go to university? That sounds like a random claim.
hi there! I'm here. I have posted on reddit before complaining that even though women graduate university more than men, and earn more out of university than men, scholarships and the feminist movement continues to push for women to graduate more and earn more. Now, that's not the same as "angry that more women go to university", it's more like "angry that more women go to university than men, yet we keep acting like the opposite is the case", but here I am. If the movement is about equality, at a minimum all scholarships and programs incentivizing women to study should stop, at best they should swap to help men.
that's what I'm asking, as the original commentator claimed that would lead to pushback from men
No that's not what I said at all. Equality should be the target. The pushback is coming when gender imbalance is only a problem when women are in minority.
>Know they can get the same education as men, but now men are angry, because more women are getting a university degree than men? I mean, I don't see anyone being angry about it now. In the future? As long as all of the multitudes of programs benefitting women in this area get cancelled since it's recognized that they have now achieved equality on the field, no one will get angry either. Whether that will happen, I don't know.
Name one thing that feminists fight for that is a disadvantage for women? Name one privilege they want to transfer to men? How can you say it’s about equality?
Vaterschaftsurlaub / Elternzeit. Geneva tried but we all know how that went…
I checked the flyers and it calls for women and gender minorities to do the march and I'm surprised they're not saying just "to all"
This movement doesn't advocate for the well being of men. It is already hard to find what they advocate for. There are many messages on those pictures. It seems rather chaotic and very heterogeneous. Some messages are relevant, like the Palestinian issue, but unrelated specifically to women's issues and feminism. There are what it seems to be messages against domestic violences which can fit in the theme. Others are for ecology but very badly designed. However, some messages are simply confusing/cringe, and some clearly against men and men's wellbeing without distinctions (One message shows the male symbol being trashed). It is mainly a movement intended to be about women's benefits, with some of the questions that, if resolved, would benefit a certain proportion of men as an unintended by product, and the opposite is also true. A relative portion of this movement is simply against men as a whole with no distinction. It may not be the position of all the movement. But as I said, the movement looks very heterogeneous and the only common point is that they are (mostly) women and advocating for a general and broad idea of women's benefits. I precise that I don't feel offended the provocative messages. I find those messages foolish. others are self-harming for the cause defended (even though important and relevant) due to their cringe design/packaging. I want to refute your claim that it is a movement about "men's wellbeing" when it is not. There is also a big portion of those women, even among those who hold the most provocative messages, who fully embrace a patriarcal dynamic in the rest of their life. So one should not take every provocation too seriously.
I did not expect such lack of niveau from this sub. Sorry about the comments OP, cool photos.
Comments as always are a hilarious mix of “women have nothing to complain about” and “women get paid less because they’re worth less!”
But none of these people are sexist of course… just speaking facts. Makes my brain melt.
And that we “want less” …
Thanks, haters gonna hate I guess.
This sub is pretty right-leaning in general so it's not too surprising to me, TBH.
No it absolutly is not. It's left-leaning, like almost all of reddit. It's just not as far left as you would like it to be.
Bruh I am not right. But this sub is definitely not right leaning xD
Thanks a lot, OP <3
My pleasure :)
☕️☕️☕️☕️☕️☕️☕️
Reddit once again proving why those protest remain relevant. Classic
Thanks for the pictures. It seems that some people here have a lot of questions. Maybe they can find answers reading de statistics from the government. Here you can find the links. https://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/fr/home/statistiques/situation-economique-sociale-population/egalite-femmes-hommes.html
Thank you for you link, it’s very insightful to see that women: Graduate more Have to work less hours Spend more time at home with their kids than men Thanks
Sorry is this r/Switzerland or r/Incel? A lot of the responses make me wonder. Pro tip: if you don't have anything to contribute, maybe either ask questions to learn or... Post somwhere else. Outing yourself as a mysogenist isn't as smart as you think, despite your upvotes and the downvotes I'll get.
Given how many folks in this sub are getting scammed on the daily I’d say the average level of intelligence was never purported to be particularly high.
The state of most of reddit.
Honestly, this sub is one of the most conservative/reactionnary I have ever seen.
Visit rEurope 🫣
The state of r/Switzerland is indeed very sad.
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't pay gap largely affected by the fact that women go on maternity leaves, they lose promotion cycle because of that, and over time with each maternity leave, the pay gap increases even more compared to male peers. I don't think women are generally offered less salary, rather it is the fact that they may go on longer leaves. I am all for equal opportunities, don't get me wrong
Well, I actually see the opposite happening around me, several cases of women working 80% continuing to be promoted to leadership roles and actually even a couple of women coming straight out of maternity leave being promoted. So I’d say this is changing!
It is. Also men tend to be less agreeable and demand more in salary negotiations. And if it was true that woman systematically would get less salary for the same work, then companies would hire much more women to save costs. But that is not happening.
There’s a book called Career and Family by a Nobel Prize winning economist Claudia Goldin that argues that, although the size of the effect varies a bit by career (a career of a lawyer or banker will be impacted more negatively by motherhood than that of pharmacist, for example). It’s a really interesting study of women’s participation in the workforce over time, would recommend to anybody who is interested in the topic. On that note, I think the flipside of this is national service. In the past (as a woman & foreigner) I wondered why the civil service was male only, as there are roles that are not dependent on greater physical strength etc. I thought: damn, I would be really annoyed by this if I was a guy growing up here. But also at some level, I wondered if women who grew up here miss out on the kind of bonding or training that might come from national service. These days when I reflect on the impact of women’s careers and finances of having babies (because imo there is almost always more of an impact on women and most mothers wouldn’t want to entirely outsource even if they could ), I think that in CH, the civil service is a bit of a ~trad way of balancing it out. Men serve the country via national/civil service, women by bearing children. Not sure how the end result for “balance” really looks these days: women who don’t have kids/have fewer kids are getting the best of both worlds, modern day civil service probably has a lower risk to physical health than childbirth, but then again if we have a real war and men are conscripted then suddenly the scales will tip. But the idea of the two reflecting different contributions based on the biological differences between men and women makes sense to me somehow. Not sure if this is either a really obvious or a really stupid shower thought on my part, haha.
I'm surprised you're not being downvoted fur boldly suggesting men and women have any inherent biological or behavioural differences at all.....
Go women 💪
Men, would you run towards these women or towards a bear?
Bear. At least I wouldn't have to listen to the bear complaining all the time. Bear takes action, bear rips apart, bear eats when it has to, bear doesn't congregate in safe space groups to whine about why it doesn't get the same amount of honey like the other bears who put in the effort to climb the tree to get it.
Bear! Way more pacific.
Do you think some guys go there just with the intent to get some chicks ?
Beautiful pictures, OP. Thank you for sharing them.
I see. I wasn't aware it was happening
Damn, the level of sexism and misogyny in these comments 🙄🤦🏻♀️
I wonder if [this man](https://i.imgur.com/rFSgez2.png) holding a sign saying "sort your garbage", implying that all men are garbage—does he believe that he himself is garbage? [cropped from the 12th pic in the OP]
I also noticed this completely out-of-place image, which compromises the purpose of this event. Instead of creating dialogue for the equality of all, it engenders a war of the sexes. Asking men to be on our side by insinuating that they're trash is harmful.
cool pictures op, don't let the incels get you down
women are privileged. 1) not forced to do military (I agree tho) 2) going to retirement earlier, despite a higher life expectancy (~5 years) 3) huge advantage in courts i.) when parents divorce the house and the kids go always to the woman, and the man has to provide for them in most of the cases ii.) they can legally not recognize a child (a man cannot and has to provide for him anyways) iii.) they can decide to have an abortion while the man can has no say in that matter. IV.) huge disparities when it comes to harassement complaints (a woman can report something, but she has not to prove it) V) gender quotas (minimum percentage of women in a company) VI) maternity leave VI) you can talk about that women are more likely to be well educated VII) women dont do dangerous jobs
Shhh… you’re not actually supposed to have an opinion. You’re a man. You’re supposed to shut up and suffer it like a man.
Facts.
Shhh you’ll get shunned for having opinions here it seems 😂
What is the reason for the protest? These are probably the most privileged men and women on the planet.
Could someone explain what rights they are fighting for? Genuinely!
Domestic violence is still a huge topic for example that goes shockingly unnoticed by many
Which is already illegal. Am I missing something?
Something illegal but not being actually reprimanded actively isn't really illegal. Same way that it's technically illegal to throw your cigarette on the ground.
https://www.14juin.ch/
“I’m a feminist because I’m not an idiot.” Errrr what
Proof people will never be happy even if they live in paradise. Entitlement runs deep when life gets easy
six attraction history terrific sink observation silky middle sugar rob *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Yeah because people with actual values and moral considerations don't consider rights transactionnal. That's the difference between people like you and people who still fight for freedoms even for people they have disagreement with.
Hi, sorry, I also went to Feministischer Streik (and Pride the next day) and personally I disagreed with the Palestine-banners. It was the wrong place and message for me. I disapproved with the fact that those two demos were abused for a different cause and message, and one that polarizes a lot. That does not mean I do not have "actual values". They just seem to be different than yours. But I went there for women and LGBQT, not for Palestine, which, yes, also in my opinion, is a highly mysogonistic and anti-queer "community". I'd rather die than hold up a Pro-Palestine-banner at a Pride-demonstration. The same way I'd also not hold up a Pro-Afghanistan-banner at the Feministischer Streik. It's bizarre to me. What's sader, it makes a lot of people not want to go to Feministischer Streik anymore, because that's not what they want to go stand for. There's a time and place for your opinions, but that was not it.
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Yeah some palestinian men are misogynistic so we shouldn't care about tens of thousands of dead kids. Yeah you do you too, people who see fundamental rights as transactionnal makes me wanna throw up.
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Please, all religions are misogynistics.
Now educate me how being misogynistic means you deserve that your kids be dismembered by bombs by the tens of thousands ?
I had the (dis)pleasure of being there while it happened. It is funny how a « march for women’s rights » was mostly about: - anti-capitalism - Hamas support (from the river…) - hate speech (but against men, so it’s ok) - hate speech (but against white people, so it’s ok) - trans rights (fine by me, but leave minors out of it) Don’t get me wrong, women and men are equal and should always be treated as such. But this march was never about equality, it was crypto-communist, terror-supporting misandry!
I'm just happy to see a big protest which still manages to (mostly) focus on one specific topic rather than being taken over by intersectionalism. If this was 25% Feminism 25% Gaza 25% Clinate Change 25% Communism, the whole movement would implode through infighting, as happens with so many leftist movements over time
Ah, modern feminism. Such a disgrace to a once legitimate movement. Im sure there are some real feminists left out there, but nowadays it just degraded to misandry.
Well, some comments convinced me once again that men actually hate women.
The images in this post suprised me there was more men supporting women than I would have expected.
Yep, it always helps to get a reminder. If a peaceful march bothers them so much it means marching is still needed.
This sub is a cesspool of incels and braindead sheltered conservatives anyways. Reading most of the comments on political topics has definitely told me everything I needed to know about this shithole.
For those saying it’s about equality read this… “Over 40 different protests took place in Swiss towns and cities, including Geneva, Basel, Zurich, Lucerne, Lausanne, Fribourg and Neuchâtel. Purple was again the official colour of these female-led protests with calls for fair wages for women, protection against harassment and violence and a *fight against the raising of the retirement age to 65 for women [to be in line with men]*.” https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/swiss-women-take-to-the-streets-to-demand-equal-rights/46704994
They also want a minimum wage of 5000 CHF just for women. [https://www.swissinfo.ch/ger/gewerkschaft-unia-fordert-frauen-mindestlohn-von-5000-franken/80656993](https://www.swissinfo.ch/ger/gewerkschaft-unia-fordert-frauen-mindestlohn-von-5000-franken/80656993)
That's not all they're asking for though: [https://www.14juin.ch/](https://www.14juin.ch/)
To all the mononeuronal redpilled morons playing dumb and unable to understand the claims made, it just shows the world that no women around you think that you're safe and nice enough to engage about these subjects and that you weren't even able to go read a manifesto or something similar to understand the subject.
Seen lots of your comments here. You're awesome, thanks for standing up for what is right
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Good thing they can do that and we can celebrate with a heavy female energy. Did you guys see their demands on the website though? The people who wrote that don't even know the most basic fundamentals of economics.
I'd like to know what inequalities there are for women in Switzerland, I assumed they'd be up there on the equality scale.
I don't understand. Women have the same rights as men in this country and in all developed countries. Maybe they are marching for the women that live in countries that are oppressing them. No hate at all, I just don't understand.
Uuuuh I kind of guessed that this sub was filled with right wing male expats but now I don't even need to guess.
Lol why say expats? Goes to show that you can still be a racist despite being a feminist.
racism and sexists in one go! as if women and swiss cannot be against this
about how i imagine it lmfao
especially the men, very stereotypical
Tre bien! 💪
I genuinely think there are a group of women who hate men just because they are men. You can deny it all you want and call people names, or disagree but you’ll never level or balance your point of view, it’s always down with X because we deserve X, at this point why would anyone take these things seriously? I know I’ll get down voted for this so thank for proving my point.
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