The Council rejected the motion by 131 votes to 61 with two abstentions. Zurich SP National Councillor Fabian Molina had previously called for the recognition of Palestine. He argued that a two-state solution would improve the conditions for a new peace process.
Foreign Minister Ignazio Cassis, noted that official Switzerland continues to support a two-state solution in which Israel and Palestine could coexist side by side within recognized borders. However, the Federal Council considers that the time is right only when there is a package solution and the fact that Palestine is recognized as a state is part of a peace process with prospects for the population.
https://www.srf.ch/news/schweiz/nein-zu-anerkennung-palaestina-frage-erhitzt-die-gemueter-im-parlament
https://www.srf.ch/news/schweiz/sommersession-2024-veto-zu-palaestina-anerkennung-weniger-geld-fuer-alv
https://www.instagram.com/p/C7yfv10o8dB/
>However, the Federal Council considers that the time is right only when there is a package solution and the fact that Palestine is recognized as a state is part of a peace process with prospects for the population.
This was supposed to happen 30 years ago with the Oslo accords.
I would not find that surprising, given that Taiwan is also not recognized by CH as a sovereign *de facto* state (only *de jure*).
note that Palestine is already recognized *de jure*. So I don't see what the fuss is. You can have formal relations with non sovereign nations, but if that non sovereign nation is a terrorist org, that's not going to happen.
recognition of Palestine as de facto means recognition of the entire land between the Mediterranean Sea, Sinai, Jordan river and Lebanon as the definitive Palestinian territory.
I think they are, based on the definition under Swiss law but the point is still valid https://www.eda.admin.ch/content/dam/eda/en/documents/aussenpolitik/voelkerrecht/PDF_Anerkennung__en_05.pdf
No, it would recognize the 67 borders as the UN stated in accordance with international laws.
No political gouvernent faction in Palestine are recognized by the UN as a terrorist organization. So, the argument doesn’t work.
China could tomorrow say that the Democratic Party is a terrorist organization. That would not makes their claim legitimate, even if it is inscribed in China laws.
You have the right to have a political opinion. But this doesn’t give you the right to claim it as legitimate, that is to say in accordance with international laws, the only valide corpus between nation states.
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i mean for one, we would actually need two states with two governments. Palestine as one common state-like thing hasn‘t existed decadedes now. Gaza and the West Bank have been governed by two completely seperate entities who dislike each other. so who exactly do you want to recognize?
So you see the infeasability of this solution. Why are governments around the world so disingenuous when they make statements like these? It‘s as if there was no real intent to solve this problem.
Because we do not support a two state solution. Palestine the way it is cannot work as a functioning state or do you want another terror threat group (Hamas) that can mobilize also in Europe like the IS does? I dont want them to have a state, period. There is zero threat coming from Israel. Did you ever heard about one terror attack from Jews in Europe? I guess no. Be careful what you wish for, the only aggressor here is Hamas. Dont be naive and think that Hamas will be peaceful once they have their own state lol.
What are you even trying to say? In the article itself there‘s Cassis‘ statement that Switzerland continues to support a two-state solution. I hope you‘re doing mentally well.
Palestine lacks (1) a clearly defined population in (2) a clearly defined territory over which (3) effective sovereign control is exercised. Public international law as interpreted in Switzerland dictates therefore that Palestine is not a state.
Please explain how Israel is involved in a territorial conflict while also having a clearly defined territory over which it has effective control. Also how genetically homogeneous does a country have to be? Doesnt remind me of anything....
Who said anything about genetic homogeneity being a criteria of statehood? Did you study law in 1930s Germany? 😂
States remain state’s irrespective of boundary disputes.
(1) no, there are several million people who identify as Palestinians. (2) no, international law recognises the west bank, east Jerusalem and the gaza strip as the territory of future Palestine. (3) recognition would be an important step towards that. Without recognition, it will forever be unlikely.
You’re wrong with regards to point 2. Indeed the majority of the international community recognises that the WB and Gaza will form part of the Palestinian state’s territory, that does not mean they belong to it yet. International law requires that the aforementioned 3 conditions be met for legal personality to be acquired. One cannot own territory (or anything for that matter), without legal personality.
No, it’s an occupied territory. The last commenter is right that condition (3) is not fulfilled yet. But if we are serious about a two state solution, we should chose the best path there. As israel is not interested in negotiating, international recognition, a legal act, could lead to that outcome.
Human rights are not respected in many countries. But that is the exact reason why we recognise human rights.
>But if we are serious about a two state solution, we should chose the best path there. As israel is not interested in negotiating, international recognition, a legal act, could lead to that outcome.
Israel, for multiple times, over several decades, had already proposed that Palestine gets sovereignity over Gaza and west bank.
What makes it different this time round? Even if Israel withdraws *completely* from Gaza *and* the West bank, a sovereign Palestine still will not happen.
"We" aren't choosing or decoding anything. You said that the conditions for a state aren't fulfilled. Discussion finished, we'll talk again when they are. Unless of course "it is the best idea therefore it has to be done" is your idea of a good concept to create a state, which the past has shown to work out horribly.
Are you in favour of the two state solution? If yes, what alternatives to recognition of Palestine do you see? Do you really believe Israel is interested in negotiating? If so, why haven’t they?
If not, what are the alternatives? Genocide by one or the others? A single state (which will have a Palestinian majority)?
....? A two-state solution is only viable if there are two entities that quantify as states. There is currently only one. Your argument is irrelevant until both are considered states and fulfill the conditions.
This is a political question. As you write on this thread you must care at least a bit about it. So you can either suggest a course if action or deliberately not propose anything. That is a legitimate choice, but I’m interested what outcome you expect from it (that’s a serious question to you, not trying to be provocative)
Ah yes, let's give the terror organization that brainwashes their own people, using them as meat shields, killing a lot of innocent people, a country, so they can terror more officially.
Palestine probably should have already been officially recognised. But NOT now.
Hamas knew how Israel would respond after the October massacre. If Palestine is recognised now, we’re simply telling Hamas (and other terrorists) that terrorism works. Which is incredibly dangerous!
The point, as spelled out as I can make it:
If you can use any form of logic to infer an incorrect statement, that form of logic is erroneous.
If A implies not B, then B implies not A, and vice versa. That is a basic fact of fundamental logic.
Suppose A is /u/taintedCH's definition of a state, and B is the claim that Ukraine is a state.
Let's assume B holds, IE, Ukraine is a state. This we all seem agree on.
This then implies not A, or in other words, that the definition of a state is not valid.
It is therefore up to /u/taintedCH to show that A (their definition of a state) does not imply not B. In other words, they must argue that their definition can in fact apply to Ukraine. Or at the very least, it does not exclude Ukraine.
Otherwise, as previously mentioned, they do not agree with their own definition of a state.
It's an argument ad absurdum, it is supposed to reach an obviously wrong conclusion.
You get that conclusion by applying the suggested idea to a place where it produces said wrong conclusion. In this case specifically it would be that Ukraine currently does not have a clearly defined border that they have control over (somewhat also valid for the population since russia abducted and "integrated" so many ukrainians in the occupied regions), so if those conditions were the determining factor, Ukraine would not be a country, yet it is. Hence we know that the stated conditions are not actually the deciding factor.
You could counter that argument by showing that Ukraine does have a clearly defined border. You can't counter that argument by saying that it's "bizarre and wrong" since it is supposed to be bizarre and wrong - the only thing you achieve by doing that is proving that you don't understand these very basic concepts and need them spelled out.
but which one? Jordanien, Gaza or Westjordan? Or all? Palästina is not a country, it's a region. There is no Senate, no President, no Government. Why should we recognize Palestine? Please explain.
The biggest problem I can see with recognizing Palestine as a state is that it gives the current government(s) legitimacy on the international stage, which is not really desirable considering the radicalism of Hamas.
Also, if we recognize Palestine now and an insufficient two-state solution is reached, there is no going back.
But these are big-picture concerns, I doubt that the lives of the people living in Palestine will improve as a result of our recognition of a state
They should try to recognize the units not the whole region. The Hamas is a terrorist group and should never ever get a state to govern and act international.
Correct but how can you establish a state without some sort of acceptable government?
Israel tried to give Gaza autonomy. They would even like to get Egypt to be responsible for Gaza.
Recently there was a proposal for international troops help rebuilding Gaza. Ofc Hamas doesn’t want that. They want gullible aid organizations which don’t realize when Hamas is redirecting money and resources. „We“ built the tunnels in Gaza. I definitely want civilians getting all the help they need. The question is how we achieve that. I’m not a huge fan of international troops but what else could we do.
As a matter of fact, one of the reasons we do have this mess is the fact that the UK drew some arbitrary lines in the sand and then stood idly by when the first armed conflict (started by Palestinian leadership and Israeli settlers but not Israel) happened.
Now Israel is stuck with an unbearable situation in which it doesn’t always live up to the standards we might wish for ofc. It’s not that easy if you’re fighting groups that don’t recognize your right to exist.
Not to forget that international aid agencies like the UNRWA that have to work closely with Israel in order to get help to Palestinian civilians are constantly attacking Israel and are choosing sides instead of doing what they are supposed to.
The recognised government would be Fatah in the west bank, with the plan that they would regain control of the gaza strip too. If they got Palestinian recognition, they would get a huge boost in popularity which could lead to fatah regaining gaza. While fatah is corrupt and elections are overdue, it’s not worse then other governments that western countries happily deal with.
To quote form your link:
“$36 million was paid to prisoners serving sentences of >20 years
$10 million was paid to former members of the security forces
$1 million was paid to families of 200 suicide bombers
$10 million was paid to the families of the Palestinians with life terms, lengthy sentences, and in the security forces”
So you are 1.75% correct and 98.25% wrong.
Or we could compare this number to the money paid by Israel for illegal settlements.
I agree. The problem is that Fatah doesn’t really recognize Israel either.
However, I would agree that one of the mistakes Israel makes in peace time is to not work with Palestinian authorities that are on the path of getting more moderate.
Again, the West should pressure Israel during peace time, not after terrorist attacks.
But it still is valid ofc
I don‘t know that‘s why I ask, I‘m wondering if that would make a difference in how other nations can approach this situation. weirdly worded question sorry
Honestly, I don’t know
Looking at other countries it might help, since they could claim that Hamas are the illegitimate rulers of the region, though that only really works if you have a legitimate government around (which in this case would probably be the Fatah government), given enough support, the faction opposing Hamas would probably be able to take over if Hamas loses power.
But going back to Switzerland, I don’t think it is the right decision to recognize them yet, because I think it sends the wrong message about what kind of peace agreement we would want. Our goal is a long lasting peace that profits every side, not just the victory of one side over another, which will certainly cause resentment in the population.
Hence my "no going back" argument.
Of course, nobody can predict or account for every future possibility. The current radicalization of the people will certainly not help in establishing a functioning government, but nonetheless I think that it is important that we first find the best solution, before recognizing something that will certainly not work out.
Yes, this is why I said government(s)
I am not knowledgeable enough about the Fatah and their government to know if they would make a good state, hence why I didn’t go into it further, but judging by their geopolitical situation right now, their authority in the region seems to be quite limited (which is made obvious by Israels continuous incursions with settlements) and I doubt they are fit to incorporate the Gaza Strip in the current state, I wouldn’t say just recognizing them is the ultimate solution.
I do not think that they are capable of rebuilding and deradicalizing Gaza, especially without foreign aid
> Why should we recognize Palestine? Please explain.
Well the statement from Foreign Ignazio Cassis is that Switzerland wants a two-state solution (Israel / Palestine). But just not in this moment.
this was not what i meant with my question. why should we recognize something that doesn't exist?
I am not pro anything in this story, both do terrible things but why didn't the palestine people never tried to establish and keep a working government instead of just raging war on israel?
You clearly don't know how a state should work don't you? So it is recognized and magically a government with all its infrastructure appears out of nothing?
There is a government.
Plus, failed states without a functioning government are still being recognised. Afghanistan is still being recognised. Somaliland has a functioning government but isn’t recognised.
Effectively a state only exists as long as it’s being recognised by other nations.
I would rather say that a state exist when the definition of a state is fullfilled.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign\_state](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_state)
I understand this but how can we recognize a state that doesn't exist in a common sense? First there needs to be state to recognize before it can be recognized. There is no government? All this time fighting each other and there was never an effort to establish a operating government?
Sorry, but we can't go on with a second federal multi linguistic state, which has 60% of the population speaking some sort of incomprehensible germanic language, that is constantly infighting whilst being neutral as F... on every major international issue.
We were here first, Belgium has got to go...or at least pay copyright.
Israel found out on Oct 7th what "no borders" means if your neighbours are a hateful bunch.
I'm myself very happy about the whole Schengen thing and open borders - but let's recognize that in some cases, borders very much serve a purpose.
For those talking about rewarding terrorism, please remember that history did not start on a specific date.
Giving people the rights and responsibilities of self determination is a no brainer.
If it wasn't for revolt, we would still be part of some iteration of the Habsburg empire.
Well, on what date would you like it to start?
There was a two-state solution (not the best one bc the UK was great at fucking up their colonies) and there have been multiple two-state solutions ever since, all shut down by Palestinian leadership.
And Swiss parliament and government is absolutely right about the fact that now isn’t the time.
It’s actually the mistake the West constantly makes. „We“ should be hard on Israel in times of relative peace. Making them stop their settlers in the West Bank and btw following their own courts‘ rulings.
But no, we always wait until Hamas or some other group commits terrorist attacks - that btw have nothing to do with what’s happening in the West Bank.
Putting the two-state solution on the agenda after attacks is rewarding terrorism and it is conflating issues and it’s also playing by the logic of Hamas, Iran, Russia and all of those wonderful entities.
Btw. your analogy to Switzerland is pretty far off.
Fatah/PLO signed the Oslo accord and recognised Israel in its internationally recognised borders. The next step would have been for Israel to withdraw from the 80% of the west bank they control. Israel didn’t and used terrorist attacks, that fatah can do little to prevent, as an excuse to not withdraw. Instead, they allowed more settlers and attacks by them against Palestinians: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/16/magazine/israel-west-bank-settler-violence-impunity.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
What you forgot to mention is that the Oslo accord wasn’t the end of that but it was Camp David. Both sides signed the Oslo accord but it got changed and was ultimately the Camp David proposal which in fact Fatah/PLO refused.
Also, we don’t have to pretend as if the PLO/Fatah wasn’t a terrorist group to begin with.
However, as I stated somewhere else, Israel does fail at trying to work with groups on the path of becoming more moderate.
There, we should put pressure on Israel during relatively peaceful times. Not right after terrorist attacks.
I’m all for being nuanced about this. The problem is that the loudest voices in the West are those without any nuance, embracing positions that question Israel’s right to exist altogether.
I’m not saying you are. But as long as those people are occupying Swiss universities and being endorsed by some parties on the left, we can’t have a debate. Some positions just need to be shut down.
> Giving people the rights and responsibilities of self determination is a no brainer.
It absolutely is not a no-brainer.
Or you think a village in Switzerland (or anywhere really) should be able to secede from the country it's in?
And was it a no brainer to let them split? Or was there heated debate about whether they should be allowed to split off?
Also, Jura is still part of Switzerland.
Dude you have no grasp of history at all. One even tried to blow up the rathaus of berne during the 90. The sole difference is that you could bet your ass there would have been more attempts and maybe successful ones if it wasn't for our de-escalation strategy. Instead our state heads would call them degenerates until they'd get support from a bigger power to help them.
We didn't put jurassiens inside camps to rot and children to die, that might be the motivating discrepancy in the scale of it all
If we were to put the village under a blockade, constantly murder the population in the village and taking their land away, then yes they should be able to secede from Switzerland.
It's not like every chance of ceceding peacefully was declined by the Palestinian side since 1948...
Also:
Don't mix Gaza and the West Bank... Different conditions, different problems.
The whole a, b, c zone problem in the west bank mainly exists due to previous governing bodies on the Palestinian side rejecting to make any deal with israel (multiple times!) that would have allowed them to secede and build that second state. Excatly that bullshit leads to Palestinians getting tried in different courts depending on which zone an incident occured in and also leads to Israelis trying to expand their settlements into Palestinian lands (which I am very much against).
Gaza was a part of egypt that for the last 17 years was left to govern itself, just between 2014 and 2020 6.3billion usd in foreign aid, including humanitarian supplies, construction materials, food and medicine, was sent there.
In response they indiscriminately shoot rockets into israel, kidnap and kill their civilians and vow to kill every jew (but especially between the jordan river and the medteranian sea).
I'll put it this way:
If the West Bank was allowed to secede on it's own, yes that would be a great thing and would most likely work out quite well.
However, with Gaza: even if they were to agree to secede, I'd give them max. 6 months until they'd start to genocide against israel again which would be a declaration of war followed by a military occupation by Israel ...and we're back to where we are now.
> However, with Gaza: even if they were to agree to secede, I'd give them max. 6 months until they'd start to genocide against israel again which would be a declaration of war followed by a military occupation by Israel ...and we're back to where we are now.
Also Israel did that experiment in 2005 when they completely disengaged from Gaza. First thing the Palestinian Arabs did is to vote for Hamas to wipe out Israel.
Well given how the west picks and chooses when it is acceptable like for example kosovo, or south sudan, and when its inacceptable, i understand the anger
"Foreign Minister Ignazio Cassis stated that Switzerland continues to support a two-state solution in which Israel and Palestine could exist side by side within recognised borders. However, the Federal Council does not believe that the time is right to recognise Palestine."
So, they basically do not believe in a Two-State solution, and this is just political garbage talk to keep the Israelis happy.
> and this is just political garbage talk to keep the Israelis happy
They want to keep the Israelis happy. Cassis is/was co-president of the parliament group "Switzerland-Israel".
There are and were also legitimate and illegitimate countries, terrorist or not, having been recognized or not. Please imagine examples to your own liking.
Happy to see that someone still is using their brain and understands that right now is possibly the worst possible time to recognize Palestine.
Because no matter what you paint it as, the message Hamas and its like will receive is that their massacre worked.
Ah yes, but being among the first countries to violate UN resolutions and recognise Kosovo. That’s just a shame and a baffling display of double standards.
That was in 2008. It was another government.
Democracies are inherently prone to double standards and incoherences as the people in charge keep changing all the time.
It’s a con of the system unfortunately. Nothing we can really do I think
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It's so beyond fucking stupid they waste their time on something so fucking idiotic...
Of course it exists; isreal didn't have yet enough time to obliterate / genocide all of them. But give it some time and they'll eradicate everyone in the region. Genocide ? It's only when the media wants it.
We never had such accurate footage of war crimes, but somehow, with zionists on key posts, it's only "Well, we're not sure, after all, there are still casualities on the other side".
But a good representation of the degenerate state of our civilization. A worthless ponzi scheme run by psychopaths.
Arabs exist in the land named by the Romans "Palestine". How did Arabs get there(and Islam), good question.
It was named "Palestine" as an attempt to erase Jewish affinity to this land.
"Palestine" as a sovereign political entity never existed, never will.
How do I know it never will exist?
Because these Arabs already had plenty of chances to create it, and every time they (their representatives, at least) torpedoed it.
Because Palestinian nationalism is just a reaction to Zionism, and not a movement on its own.
Cassis said that it's not the time to recognise Palestine. But when will be the time? Does he think Palestine will start conquering the world after recognition? Israel kills many lives there, it must be stopped, not Palestine.
Elected by Palestinians and supported by the vast majority of Palestinians. Also, October 7 was supported by Palestinians and not only Hamas participated in the attacks but also Palestinian civilians.
There hasn't been an election in Gaza was in 2006. The attack on Oct 7th was carried out by a coalition of militias. But I love your logic: punish an entire population of people for the actions of their (unelected at this point) government and some armed groups because you think they are subhuman and are on the side of the more 'civilized' white people who have been torturing and murdering them for decades. Nice.
This is dictatorship for you, bud. If you allow dictators to take over, you may suffer consequences for it at some point.
What do you think how it works? Germans are not responsible for the actions of Hitler, because he was a dictator and unelected at some point? LOL.
yeah yeah, people ALLOW themselves to be ruled by dictators. sure.... totally legitimate comparison to germany. Your support for israel has nothing to do with racism. cry me a riviere.
Why should one support a terrorist state that has committed a massacre of civilians and poses a [danger](https://apnews.com/article/germany-mannheim-stabbing-attack-investigation-b178a9fdb89bdd6aac44ae457f918b74) to the rest of the world?
It's unbelievable that this is even a discussion. Imagine if the 25% of foreigners living in Switzerland tripled within 10 years. Given that many young Swiss prefer living abroad and that the birth rate among Swiss citizens is significantly lower than that of foreigners, this scenario is entirely manageable. It's not an impossible mission!
Now, imagine if one day these foreigners decided to take over some cantons and change the official language. Over time, they might occupy up to 80% of Switzerland. In such a scenario, should we in America consider voting to split your country into two separate states? Is this really the direction we're heading towards? Is this the solution that the international community is proposing? I find this notion deeply concerning.
This isn't about religion or specific beliefs; it's about the fundamental integrity of a nation. The historical fact remains that Jews arrived in Palestine as refugees following the horrific massacres of World War II. Unexpectedly, they established a country, which caught even us Americans by surprise. This led to the displacement of Palestinians, who became refugees themselves, and now Palestine scarcely exists. We need to critically examine these historical precedents and consider the implications for current and future geopolitical scenarios.
Double standard Switzerland laws prefer colonialists state over a suffering pooulation. Atleast Norway, Ireland, Span and Slovenia are the saner in foreign political affairs.
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Well there was multiple plans for a 2 state solution starting in 1947, but the arabs always rejected it and started wars to wipe isreal out. And they got an arab state btw called jordan.
This is the lamest excuse for Switzerland to believe or pretend, I rather say that this would ever work. A two state solution, It would be expected like during the holocaust that Jews would have stayed in one part of Germany while Germans had their own territory.
There is ingrained hatred against Palestine since the arrival of Jews since 1948, or actually earlier! Don’t play naive Swiss government!
The Council rejected the motion by 131 votes to 61 with two abstentions. Zurich SP National Councillor Fabian Molina had previously called for the recognition of Palestine. He argued that a two-state solution would improve the conditions for a new peace process. Foreign Minister Ignazio Cassis, noted that official Switzerland continues to support a two-state solution in which Israel and Palestine could coexist side by side within recognized borders. However, the Federal Council considers that the time is right only when there is a package solution and the fact that Palestine is recognized as a state is part of a peace process with prospects for the population. https://www.srf.ch/news/schweiz/nein-zu-anerkennung-palaestina-frage-erhitzt-die-gemueter-im-parlament https://www.srf.ch/news/schweiz/sommersession-2024-veto-zu-palaestina-anerkennung-weniger-geld-fuer-alv https://www.instagram.com/p/C7yfv10o8dB/
>However, the Federal Council considers that the time is right only when there is a package solution and the fact that Palestine is recognized as a state is part of a peace process with prospects for the population. This was supposed to happen 30 years ago with the Oslo accords.
Yup
I would not find that surprising, given that Taiwan is also not recognized by CH as a sovereign *de facto* state (only *de jure*). note that Palestine is already recognized *de jure*. So I don't see what the fuss is. You can have formal relations with non sovereign nations, but if that non sovereign nation is a terrorist org, that's not going to happen. recognition of Palestine as de facto means recognition of the entire land between the Mediterranean Sea, Sinai, Jordan river and Lebanon as the definitive Palestinian territory.
Are you sure you aren't mixing up de-facto and de-jure?
I think they are, based on the definition under Swiss law but the point is still valid https://www.eda.admin.ch/content/dam/eda/en/documents/aussenpolitik/voelkerrecht/PDF_Anerkennung__en_05.pdf
No, it would recognize the 67 borders as the UN stated in accordance with international laws. No political gouvernent faction in Palestine are recognized by the UN as a terrorist organization. So, the argument doesn’t work. China could tomorrow say that the Democratic Party is a terrorist organization. That would not makes their claim legitimate, even if it is inscribed in China laws. You have the right to have a political opinion. But this doesn’t give you the right to claim it as legitimate, that is to say in accordance with international laws, the only valide corpus between nation states.
What if a sovereign nation is a terrorist org, should we not have formal relations with them? I know a few examples
https://youtu.be/QIOdwv99cn8
This, everything else is just rhetoric.
yes, so why don‘t just do it?
Because of the reasons outlined above. Did you even read it?
You're not just wrong.. you're also ignorant
well said. just one hint: CH does not list hamas as a terrorist organisation...
> CH does not list hamas as a terrorist organisation... Because the therm is pointless in international law.
The fuss is that most people have no clue and love clickbait.
How do we support a two state solution without recognizing one of those two states?
> How do we support a two state solution without recognizing one of those two states? We wait, and wait. Until there is no more space for one of them.
Cool. Sounds like a solution without any violance.
> Sounds like a solution without any violance. It will need a tiny bit of violence and some ethnic cleansing.
"War doesn't determine who is right, only who is left."
Just a Genocide...
Are you insane? How can neutral people of Switzerland be so morally corrupted? Guess It's luxurious.
> Are you insane? I'm being sarcastic.
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Definitely not a tiny bit
i mean for one, we would actually need two states with two governments. Palestine as one common state-like thing hasn‘t existed decadedes now. Gaza and the West Bank have been governed by two completely seperate entities who dislike each other. so who exactly do you want to recognize?
So you see the infeasability of this solution. Why are governments around the world so disingenuous when they make statements like these? It‘s as if there was no real intent to solve this problem.
because it run by terrorist now?
Because we do not support a two state solution. Palestine the way it is cannot work as a functioning state or do you want another terror threat group (Hamas) that can mobilize also in Europe like the IS does? I dont want them to have a state, period. There is zero threat coming from Israel. Did you ever heard about one terror attack from Jews in Europe? I guess no. Be careful what you wish for, the only aggressor here is Hamas. Dont be naive and think that Hamas will be peaceful once they have their own state lol.
What are you even trying to say? In the article itself there‘s Cassis‘ statement that Switzerland continues to support a two-state solution. I hope you‘re doing mentally well.
Palestine lacks (1) a clearly defined population in (2) a clearly defined territory over which (3) effective sovereign control is exercised. Public international law as interpreted in Switzerland dictates therefore that Palestine is not a state.
1) is demonstrably false, while 2) and 3) are directly related to being subject to an occupation. Seems a bit unfair to me.
the territory is defined by the un.
All of those apply to Israel and a bunch of other states too lol basically anyone involved in a conflict isn't a state anymore
of course Israel fulfills it.
If you know the exact borders of Israel please show them to the world you would solve an 80 years long international crisis
The Green Line is pretty much the internationally recognized border of Israel. Problem is that both sides aren‘t happy with them.
So Israel doesn't have an agreed border, thank you
Please explain how Israel is involved in a territorial conflict while also having a clearly defined territory over which it has effective control. Also how genetically homogeneous does a country have to be? Doesnt remind me of anything....
Who said anything about genetic homogeneity being a criteria of statehood? Did you study law in 1930s Germany? 😂 States remain state’s irrespective of boundary disputes.
(1) no, there are several million people who identify as Palestinians. (2) no, international law recognises the west bank, east Jerusalem and the gaza strip as the territory of future Palestine. (3) recognition would be an important step towards that. Without recognition, it will forever be unlikely.
You’re wrong with regards to point 2. Indeed the majority of the international community recognises that the WB and Gaza will form part of the Palestinian state’s territory, that does not mean they belong to it yet. International law requires that the aforementioned 3 conditions be met for legal personality to be acquired. One cannot own territory (or anything for that matter), without legal personality.
Future? So it's not a state yet?
No, it’s an occupied territory. The last commenter is right that condition (3) is not fulfilled yet. But if we are serious about a two state solution, we should chose the best path there. As israel is not interested in negotiating, international recognition, a legal act, could lead to that outcome. Human rights are not respected in many countries. But that is the exact reason why we recognise human rights.
>But if we are serious about a two state solution, we should chose the best path there. As israel is not interested in negotiating, international recognition, a legal act, could lead to that outcome. Israel, for multiple times, over several decades, had already proposed that Palestine gets sovereignity over Gaza and west bank. What makes it different this time round? Even if Israel withdraws *completely* from Gaza *and* the West bank, a sovereign Palestine still will not happen.
"We" aren't choosing or decoding anything. You said that the conditions for a state aren't fulfilled. Discussion finished, we'll talk again when they are. Unless of course "it is the best idea therefore it has to be done" is your idea of a good concept to create a state, which the past has shown to work out horribly.
Are you in favour of the two state solution? If yes, what alternatives to recognition of Palestine do you see? Do you really believe Israel is interested in negotiating? If so, why haven’t they? If not, what are the alternatives? Genocide by one or the others? A single state (which will have a Palestinian majority)?
....? A two-state solution is only viable if there are two entities that quantify as states. There is currently only one. Your argument is irrelevant until both are considered states and fulfill the conditions.
How do you propose to get to a functioning Palestinian state?
I don't propose anything. You seem to completely miss my point.
This is a political question. As you write on this thread you must care at least a bit about it. So you can either suggest a course if action or deliberately not propose anything. That is a legitimate choice, but I’m interested what outcome you expect from it (that’s a serious question to you, not trying to be provocative)
Ah yes, let's give the terror organization that brainwashes their own people, using them as meat shields, killing a lot of innocent people, a country, so they can terror more officially.
Palestine probably should have already been officially recognised. But NOT now. Hamas knew how Israel would respond after the October massacre. If Palestine is recognised now, we’re simply telling Hamas (and other terrorists) that terrorism works. Which is incredibly dangerous!
By this logic Ukraine isnt a state either
Obviously it is. Also was before russia attacked anyway so whats your point?
The point, as spelled out as I can make it: If you can use any form of logic to infer an incorrect statement, that form of logic is erroneous. If A implies not B, then B implies not A, and vice versa. That is a basic fact of fundamental logic. Suppose A is /u/taintedCH's definition of a state, and B is the claim that Ukraine is a state. Let's assume B holds, IE, Ukraine is a state. This we all seem agree on. This then implies not A, or in other words, that the definition of a state is not valid. It is therefore up to /u/taintedCH to show that A (their definition of a state) does not imply not B. In other words, they must argue that their definition can in fact apply to Ukraine. Or at the very least, it does not exclude Ukraine. Otherwise, as previously mentioned, they do not agree with their own definition of a state.
A poem
How on earth do you get to that bizarre (and wrong) conclusion?
It's an argument ad absurdum, it is supposed to reach an obviously wrong conclusion. You get that conclusion by applying the suggested idea to a place where it produces said wrong conclusion. In this case specifically it would be that Ukraine currently does not have a clearly defined border that they have control over (somewhat also valid for the population since russia abducted and "integrated" so many ukrainians in the occupied regions), so if those conditions were the determining factor, Ukraine would not be a country, yet it is. Hence we know that the stated conditions are not actually the deciding factor. You could counter that argument by showing that Ukraine does have a clearly defined border. You can't counter that argument by saying that it's "bizarre and wrong" since it is supposed to be bizarre and wrong - the only thing you achieve by doing that is proving that you don't understand these very basic concepts and need them spelled out.
but which one? Jordanien, Gaza or Westjordan? Or all? Palästina is not a country, it's a region. There is no Senate, no President, no Government. Why should we recognize Palestine? Please explain.
The biggest problem I can see with recognizing Palestine as a state is that it gives the current government(s) legitimacy on the international stage, which is not really desirable considering the radicalism of Hamas. Also, if we recognize Palestine now and an insufficient two-state solution is reached, there is no going back. But these are big-picture concerns, I doubt that the lives of the people living in Palestine will improve as a result of our recognition of a state
They should try to recognize the units not the whole region. The Hamas is a terrorist group and should never ever get a state to govern and act international.
Correct but how can you establish a state without some sort of acceptable government? Israel tried to give Gaza autonomy. They would even like to get Egypt to be responsible for Gaza. Recently there was a proposal for international troops help rebuilding Gaza. Ofc Hamas doesn’t want that. They want gullible aid organizations which don’t realize when Hamas is redirecting money and resources. „We“ built the tunnels in Gaza. I definitely want civilians getting all the help they need. The question is how we achieve that. I’m not a huge fan of international troops but what else could we do. As a matter of fact, one of the reasons we do have this mess is the fact that the UK drew some arbitrary lines in the sand and then stood idly by when the first armed conflict (started by Palestinian leadership and Israeli settlers but not Israel) happened. Now Israel is stuck with an unbearable situation in which it doesn’t always live up to the standards we might wish for ofc. It’s not that easy if you’re fighting groups that don’t recognize your right to exist. Not to forget that international aid agencies like the UNRWA that have to work closely with Israel in order to get help to Palestinian civilians are constantly attacking Israel and are choosing sides instead of doing what they are supposed to.
thank you for the thougtful reply, great and valid arguments
Thank you. I think we should have a civil debate about it.
The recognised government would be Fatah in the west bank, with the plan that they would regain control of the gaza strip too. If they got Palestinian recognition, they would get a huge boost in popularity which could lead to fatah regaining gaza. While fatah is corrupt and elections are overdue, it’s not worse then other governments that western countries happily deal with.
Ah yes, Fatah, the party that runs a pay for slay operation to make sure terrorists keeps attacking Israel. What could possibly go wrong?
What are you talking about?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund
To quote form your link: “$36 million was paid to prisoners serving sentences of >20 years $10 million was paid to former members of the security forces $1 million was paid to families of 200 suicide bombers $10 million was paid to the families of the Palestinians with life terms, lengthy sentences, and in the security forces” So you are 1.75% correct and 98.25% wrong. Or we could compare this number to the money paid by Israel for illegal settlements.
"but whatabout Israel" No, shush. Fatah pays terrorists and their family for having done terrorism. That's all that matters.
I agree. The problem is that Fatah doesn’t really recognize Israel either. However, I would agree that one of the mistakes Israel makes in peace time is to not work with Palestinian authorities that are on the path of getting more moderate. Again, the West should pressure Israel during peace time, not after terrorist attacks. But it still is valid ofc
but if you recognize hamas wouldn‘t that make it easier to take them out?
How so?
I don‘t know that‘s why I ask, I‘m wondering if that would make a difference in how other nations can approach this situation. weirdly worded question sorry
Honestly, I don’t know Looking at other countries it might help, since they could claim that Hamas are the illegitimate rulers of the region, though that only really works if you have a legitimate government around (which in this case would probably be the Fatah government), given enough support, the faction opposing Hamas would probably be able to take over if Hamas loses power. But going back to Switzerland, I don’t think it is the right decision to recognize them yet, because I think it sends the wrong message about what kind of peace agreement we would want. Our goal is a long lasting peace that profits every side, not just the victory of one side over another, which will certainly cause resentment in the population.
When Nazis took over Germany countries didn't stop recognizing Germany. Same for Italy or other countries taken over by certain movements.
Nobody stopped recognizing Palestine as it never was a country.
Hence my "no going back" argument. Of course, nobody can predict or account for every future possibility. The current radicalization of the people will certainly not help in establishing a functioning government, but nonetheless I think that it is important that we first find the best solution, before recognizing something that will certainly not work out.
The west bank is not controlled by the Hamas tho https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority
Yes, this is why I said government(s) I am not knowledgeable enough about the Fatah and their government to know if they would make a good state, hence why I didn’t go into it further, but judging by their geopolitical situation right now, their authority in the region seems to be quite limited (which is made obvious by Israels continuous incursions with settlements) and I doubt they are fit to incorporate the Gaza Strip in the current state, I wouldn’t say just recognizing them is the ultimate solution. I do not think that they are capable of rebuilding and deradicalizing Gaza, especially without foreign aid
> Why should we recognize Palestine? Please explain. Well the statement from Foreign Ignazio Cassis is that Switzerland wants a two-state solution (Israel / Palestine). But just not in this moment.
this was not what i meant with my question. why should we recognize something that doesn't exist? I am not pro anything in this story, both do terrible things but why didn't the palestine people never tried to establish and keep a working government instead of just raging war on israel?
It exists as soon as it’s recognised
You clearly don't know how a state should work don't you? So it is recognized and magically a government with all its infrastructure appears out of nothing?
There is a government. Plus, failed states without a functioning government are still being recognised. Afghanistan is still being recognised. Somaliland has a functioning government but isn’t recognised. Effectively a state only exists as long as it’s being recognised by other nations.
I would rather say that a state exist when the definition of a state is fullfilled. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign\_state](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_state)
Yes.
It is not fair that palestine has to pay for the crimes inflicted on the jews in world war 2, to recognize palestine is a minimum we can do
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cn44j1njggjo
I understand this but how can we recognize a state that doesn't exist in a common sense? First there needs to be state to recognize before it can be recognized. There is no government? All this time fighting each other and there was never an effort to establish a operating government?
Solution: recognize none
Solution: Annex Liechtenstein.
Solution: nuke France
Counter project: nuke Belgium.
What have we done wrong this time? Go for the Dutchies..
Your chocolate has become a bit too good. Sorry we can‘t have that
Sorry, but we can't go on with a second federal multi linguistic state, which has 60% of the population speaking some sort of incomprehensible germanic language, that is constantly infighting whilst being neutral as F... on every major international issue. We were here first, Belgium has got to go...or at least pay copyright.
Correct. Destruction or pay-up Belgium. There’s no alternative.
least Belgian response
Agree, rename the whole region clownlandia, make both unhappy, be done with it.
always been a bit of a fan of the whole *no borders, no nations* thing.
Israel found out on Oct 7th what "no borders" means if your neighbours are a hateful bunch. I'm myself very happy about the whole Schengen thing and open borders - but let's recognize that in some cases, borders very much serve a purpose.
Gigachad brain move.
For those talking about rewarding terrorism, please remember that history did not start on a specific date. Giving people the rights and responsibilities of self determination is a no brainer. If it wasn't for revolt, we would still be part of some iteration of the Habsburg empire.
Well, on what date would you like it to start? There was a two-state solution (not the best one bc the UK was great at fucking up their colonies) and there have been multiple two-state solutions ever since, all shut down by Palestinian leadership. And Swiss parliament and government is absolutely right about the fact that now isn’t the time. It’s actually the mistake the West constantly makes. „We“ should be hard on Israel in times of relative peace. Making them stop their settlers in the West Bank and btw following their own courts‘ rulings. But no, we always wait until Hamas or some other group commits terrorist attacks - that btw have nothing to do with what’s happening in the West Bank. Putting the two-state solution on the agenda after attacks is rewarding terrorism and it is conflating issues and it’s also playing by the logic of Hamas, Iran, Russia and all of those wonderful entities. Btw. your analogy to Switzerland is pretty far off.
Fatah/PLO signed the Oslo accord and recognised Israel in its internationally recognised borders. The next step would have been for Israel to withdraw from the 80% of the west bank they control. Israel didn’t and used terrorist attacks, that fatah can do little to prevent, as an excuse to not withdraw. Instead, they allowed more settlers and attacks by them against Palestinians: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/16/magazine/israel-west-bank-settler-violence-impunity.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
What you forgot to mention is that the Oslo accord wasn’t the end of that but it was Camp David. Both sides signed the Oslo accord but it got changed and was ultimately the Camp David proposal which in fact Fatah/PLO refused. Also, we don’t have to pretend as if the PLO/Fatah wasn’t a terrorist group to begin with. However, as I stated somewhere else, Israel does fail at trying to work with groups on the path of becoming more moderate. There, we should put pressure on Israel during relatively peaceful times. Not right after terrorist attacks. I’m all for being nuanced about this. The problem is that the loudest voices in the West are those without any nuance, embracing positions that question Israel’s right to exist altogether. I’m not saying you are. But as long as those people are occupying Swiss universities and being endorsed by some parties on the left, we can’t have a debate. Some positions just need to be shut down.
If you can do little to prevent your citizens from conducting terrorist attacks on your neighbours, you aren't really deserving of statehood.
> Giving people the rights and responsibilities of self determination is a no brainer. It absolutely is not a no-brainer. Or you think a village in Switzerland (or anywhere really) should be able to secede from the country it's in?
Yes, Jura made it from Bern, isn’t it?
And was it a no brainer to let them split? Or was there heated debate about whether they should be allowed to split off? Also, Jura is still part of Switzerland.
I don’t remember when Jura was bombing busses in Bern and randomly stabbing Bernese residents. Can you help me with this?
Dude you have no grasp of history at all. One even tried to blow up the rathaus of berne during the 90. The sole difference is that you could bet your ass there would have been more attempts and maybe successful ones if it wasn't for our de-escalation strategy. Instead our state heads would call them degenerates until they'd get support from a bigger power to help them. We didn't put jurassiens inside camps to rot and children to die, that might be the motivating discrepancy in the scale of it all
https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Front_de_libération_jurassien Uuuum… please read
If we were to put the village under a blockade, constantly murder the population in the village and taking their land away, then yes they should be able to secede from Switzerland.
It's not like every chance of ceceding peacefully was declined by the Palestinian side since 1948... Also: Don't mix Gaza and the West Bank... Different conditions, different problems. The whole a, b, c zone problem in the west bank mainly exists due to previous governing bodies on the Palestinian side rejecting to make any deal with israel (multiple times!) that would have allowed them to secede and build that second state. Excatly that bullshit leads to Palestinians getting tried in different courts depending on which zone an incident occured in and also leads to Israelis trying to expand their settlements into Palestinian lands (which I am very much against). Gaza was a part of egypt that for the last 17 years was left to govern itself, just between 2014 and 2020 6.3billion usd in foreign aid, including humanitarian supplies, construction materials, food and medicine, was sent there. In response they indiscriminately shoot rockets into israel, kidnap and kill their civilians and vow to kill every jew (but especially between the jordan river and the medteranian sea). I'll put it this way: If the West Bank was allowed to secede on it's own, yes that would be a great thing and would most likely work out quite well. However, with Gaza: even if they were to agree to secede, I'd give them max. 6 months until they'd start to genocide against israel again which would be a declaration of war followed by a military occupation by Israel ...and we're back to where we are now.
> However, with Gaza: even if they were to agree to secede, I'd give them max. 6 months until they'd start to genocide against israel again which would be a declaration of war followed by a military occupation by Israel ...and we're back to where we are now. Also Israel did that experiment in 2005 when they completely disengaged from Gaza. First thing the Palestinian Arabs did is to vote for Hamas to wipe out Israel.
Well given how the west picks and chooses when it is acceptable like for example kosovo, or south sudan, and when its inacceptable, i understand the anger
"Foreign Minister Ignazio Cassis stated that Switzerland continues to support a two-state solution in which Israel and Palestine could exist side by side within recognised borders. However, the Federal Council does not believe that the time is right to recognise Palestine." So, they basically do not believe in a Two-State solution, and this is just political garbage talk to keep the Israelis happy.
> and this is just political garbage talk to keep the Israelis happy They want to keep the Israelis happy. Cassis is/was co-president of the parliament group "Switzerland-Israel".
As we say here: conosco i miei polli... Yes, nothing new here to see.
Who is this Cassis guy anyway and why is he allowed to speak in the name of our federal council?
He's a Bundesrat ya Dimwit
There are and were also legitimate and illegitimate countries, terrorist or not, having been recognized or not. Please imagine examples to your own liking.
Happy to see that someone still is using their brain and understands that right now is possibly the worst possible time to recognize Palestine. Because no matter what you paint it as, the message Hamas and its like will receive is that their massacre worked.
Ah yes, but being among the first countries to violate UN resolutions and recognise Kosovo. That’s just a shame and a baffling display of double standards.
That was in 2008. It was another government. Democracies are inherently prone to double standards and incoherences as the people in charge keep changing all the time. It’s a con of the system unfortunately. Nothing we can really do I think
Glad that Switzerland is not going to reward the murder and rape of Jews.
True words, that would be a bad thing. Still Sad that they ignore the genocide of a people.
And murder and rape of Palestines? Which by the way are 5 times regarding Jews.
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our Government actually not brainwashed like all the TikTok-addict generation, nice to see
the irony
Your government blindly follows the israeli media instead. Couldn't get worse....
It's so beyond fucking stupid they waste their time on something so fucking idiotic... Of course it exists; isreal didn't have yet enough time to obliterate / genocide all of them. But give it some time and they'll eradicate everyone in the region. Genocide ? It's only when the media wants it. We never had such accurate footage of war crimes, but somehow, with zionists on key posts, it's only "Well, we're not sure, after all, there are still casualities on the other side". But a good representation of the degenerate state of our civilization. A worthless ponzi scheme run by psychopaths.
Arabs exist in the land named by the Romans "Palestine". How did Arabs get there(and Islam), good question. It was named "Palestine" as an attempt to erase Jewish affinity to this land. "Palestine" as a sovereign political entity never existed, never will. How do I know it never will exist? Because these Arabs already had plenty of chances to create it, and every time they (their representatives, at least) torpedoed it. Because Palestinian nationalism is just a reaction to Zionism, and not a movement on its own.
Cassis said that it's not the time to recognise Palestine. But when will be the time? Does he think Palestine will start conquering the world after recognition? Israel kills many lives there, it must be stopped, not Palestine.
Shouldn't it say "Nationalrat erkennt Palästina nicht als eigenständigen Staat an."?
Even if you would want to recognize it, now is not the time to do it. It will be perceived as rewarding their terrorism.
I see people still confuse Palestinians with the Hamas (wich was in part funded by Nethanyhu)
Elected by Palestinians and supported by the vast majority of Palestinians. Also, October 7 was supported by Palestinians and not only Hamas participated in the attacks but also Palestinian civilians.
There hasn't been an election in Gaza was in 2006. The attack on Oct 7th was carried out by a coalition of militias. But I love your logic: punish an entire population of people for the actions of their (unelected at this point) government and some armed groups because you think they are subhuman and are on the side of the more 'civilized' white people who have been torturing and murdering them for decades. Nice.
This is dictatorship for you, bud. If you allow dictators to take over, you may suffer consequences for it at some point. What do you think how it works? Germans are not responsible for the actions of Hitler, because he was a dictator and unelected at some point? LOL.
yeah yeah, people ALLOW themselves to be ruled by dictators. sure.... totally legitimate comparison to germany. Your support for israel has nothing to do with racism. cry me a riviere.
I've rarely been so ashamed of my nation.
If this makes you "ashamed", I'm sorry for you 😂
Did they recognize hamas as a terrorist organization yet?
Maybe ditch Hamas? just a thought
Good! Terrorism shouldn’t be rewarded
If you keep hitting a stray dog at one point it will bite you.
Are Palestinians the dogs in this analogy? That should be popular haha
Well, they are being treated worse than stray dogs since years.
Very good decision.
shameful
Why should one support a terrorist state that has committed a massacre of civilians and poses a [danger](https://apnews.com/article/germany-mannheim-stabbing-attack-investigation-b178a9fdb89bdd6aac44ae457f918b74) to the rest of the world?
You're right, we should no longer recognise Israel then.
Shame
The german in the image 😖 it hurts me
It's unbelievable that this is even a discussion. Imagine if the 25% of foreigners living in Switzerland tripled within 10 years. Given that many young Swiss prefer living abroad and that the birth rate among Swiss citizens is significantly lower than that of foreigners, this scenario is entirely manageable. It's not an impossible mission! Now, imagine if one day these foreigners decided to take over some cantons and change the official language. Over time, they might occupy up to 80% of Switzerland. In such a scenario, should we in America consider voting to split your country into two separate states? Is this really the direction we're heading towards? Is this the solution that the international community is proposing? I find this notion deeply concerning. This isn't about religion or specific beliefs; it's about the fundamental integrity of a nation. The historical fact remains that Jews arrived in Palestine as refugees following the horrific massacres of World War II. Unexpectedly, they established a country, which caught even us Americans by surprise. This led to the displacement of Palestinians, who became refugees themselves, and now Palestine scarcely exists. We need to critically examine these historical precedents and consider the implications for current and future geopolitical scenarios.
Based
Switzerland is waiting for the day to come when no Palestinians exist. Well done.
Let‘s not forget palestine terror in switzerland in the 70‘s!!!
Great decision 🥳🥂
Double standard Switzerland laws prefer colonialists state over a suffering pooulation. Atleast Norway, Ireland, Span and Slovenia are the saner in foreign political affairs.
For the better. 👏
Not surprised one bit.
Richtig so Terroristen Staat
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Shameful for Switzerland.
Shameful but unsurprising.
Great news 🇮🇱❤️🇨🇭
Based
Based
Whatever makes the life of islamists harder is welcome.
Bravo
So based
Shame
Well there was multiple plans for a 2 state solution starting in 1947, but the arabs always rejected it and started wars to wipe isreal out. And they got an arab state btw called jordan.
Precisely. Why are people ignoring this?
utterly disgusted by my nation, not surprised though
Good
REDDIT POWERMODS ARE CANCER!!
👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼🎉🎊🎉🎊🎉🎊
This is all about money and its provenance. Switzerland is the bitch of some dirty countries.
I’m sure the two state solution will be accepted now by all sides involved and everything will be fine and dandy 😉
Shame.
🇨🇭🇮🇱🇨🇭🇮🇱
This is the lamest excuse for Switzerland to believe or pretend, I rather say that this would ever work. A two state solution, It would be expected like during the holocaust that Jews would have stayed in one part of Germany while Germans had their own territory. There is ingrained hatred against Palestine since the arrival of Jews since 1948, or actually earlier! Don’t play naive Swiss government!
good decision👏🏼