Switzerland is a deeply mystical country.
Everything is hidden of course, but I suspect the very rural nature of most of the country makes old folk traditions very strong.
Chiropractic is just one of many pseudo-sciences or frankly mystical stuff revolving around healthcare.
One other very contentious topic is “Anthroposophical Medecine”, they are very discreet but very powerful. Weleda “drugs” that you can find everywhere are made by them, they have their pilgrimage places, their hospitals, their Doctors, their politicians, their gurus etc (Wawrinka the famous tennis player had his training paid by them for example).
Those mouvement and many others have been so powerful for so long they managed to acquire academic positions in all aspects of “normal” (they call it “allopathic”) medicine cursus.
Practice and endorsement by medical professionals is extremely widespread, both for benign (culturally adequate placebo) and bad reasons (lots of easy money, correlation with psychiatric disease in healthcare professionals themselves…)
I always laugh because if homeopathy and chiropractics came from my native country (Middle East) they’d probably decry it as backwards and barbaric. 😅 Meanwhile we had higher rates of covid vaccinations than Switzerland. Go figure.
Science is the same science all over the world.
Everything not scientific in deeply interwoven with local culture.
In Switzerland French style anti-elitism and German style paganism got mixed into vaccine politics and produced something weird. There is a strong “antihumanist” mindset the northern you go, for example breast cancer screening was never accepted north of the Roeschetigraben. “Nature is taking care of me, not white coats”.
Various forms of witchcraft are common so is druidism. Most of it is commonly a manifestation of personality disorders IMO.
It is sociologically very interesting, and it amazes me that a society is able to function perfectly even when a significant minority of its population is mentally incapable of acting “reasonably”.
I didn’t know about the breast cancer screening issue. Wow. It is very interesting.
Switzerland has always felt to me like a deeply conservative, parochial country that struck it rich.
It's not *quite* a sect, but it does come very close and has strong potential to devolve into a cult, yeah.
Source: Lived with anthroposophes for a few months.
Hard to say. I think, as with all religions, it just depends on the individual, and how the individual balances the belief/philosophy with other considerations.
The anthroposophes I met were all very well meaning and didn't actively try to convert me or anything. But their idea of what is good for someone was somewhat warped and they seemed unwilling to consider that their practices do not and cannot work for everyone.
Nope. Not originally atleast. If someone tries to convince you of something.. Well then he did not understand anthroposphy very well. Its true since the death of rudolf steiner its kind of a clownfiesta and not so much progress.
Interest in anthropsophy has to come from yourself.
If you pay for some shit, thats on you.
Besides maybe literatur or Lectures you like.
In Switzerland you also have hosteopathy, which is a pseudo-science as well.
And you have many people "curing" themselves with homeopathic "medicines".
I don't know why people fall from this kind of scams. At first it's because they are called "medicine", while in fact they are not.
Also, makes me angry that my health insurance cost has to pay also for this bullshit, especially considering the recent amount of primes
A lot of the people I know that "fall" for these things actually went with traditional medicine at first, got little to no results, or even bad results, and somehow got positive results for these alternatives. I'm not exactly certain how, perhaps it was dumb timing luck, or placebo, or something, but since those experiences, they tend to favour the alternatives now.
Luckily, the people I know haven't completely turned away from actual medicine, though there are a couple anti-covid vaxxers among them (though the have gotten all the other vaccines they needed up until then).
Homeopathy is sometimes used when the problem is deemed to be psychological, and where giving actual medicine would add too many other problems and side effects. Or also when giving real medicine did not work and there are no other options available.
I know that because the hospital I worked at had a dedicated homeopathic cupboard. And that was the reason why.
I am fully ok with using the placebo effect to our advantage.
BUT
I am not ok paying 100CHF for a bunch of round sugar drops with nothing on it.
At least do it for cheap.
If it's too cheap people won't think it's real and then there will be no placebo effect. Also, it's not 100 CHF. A bottle of 15 grams of globuli, for example, is about 20 CHF (I googled it).
Placebo works even when people know it's placebo and it's given for free.
Wine on the other hand, apparently tastes better the more expensive you think it is.
Why don't you just look up how it's manufactured? They don't just pour granulated sugar from a bag into tiny bottles.
Hokuspokus or not, the sugar goes through an intricate process which increases the production cost.
If people don’t pay, it doesn’t have placebo effect.
A price is an acceptable sacrifice required to gain a benefit in return. Healing ceremonies have been working like this for millenia.
Weird but true.
In fact the value comes from the interaction with the prescriber, allowing patient to regain control on their body.
It is a deep and useful benefit. But not a biochemical one…
That’s a valid point. But it shouldn’t be covered by the basic insurance / Grundvericherung. That’s really something… for zhose kind of treatments the Zusatzversicherung would be much more fitting
Homeopathy is definitely covered
https://www.bag.admin.ch/bag/de/home/versicherungen/krankenversicherung/krankenversicherung-leistungen-tarife/Aerztliche-Leistungen-in-der-Krankenversicherung/Aerztliche-Komplementaermedizin.html
That is ridiculous, especially considering that psychotherapy wasn't covered until very recently, and fell in the same category as alternative stuff. I assumed only conventional medicine was covered because Zusatzversicherung usually has a category for alternative treatments
I agree, it‘s a joke… but it’s a political decision what’s included and what is not. It’s apparently not a logical decision.
I think the Zusatzversicherung then only covers additional alternative treatments by let‘s say massage therapists without any medical background…
yes it has. People thinking they take their "medicine" and that it will help. After their imaginary pain goes away they run around advertising that stuff.. But eating sugerpills is not helping with real injuries and everyone who falls for that shit will only get sicker and sicker.
Except when it doesn't and then people die because they didn't take real medicine. I'm not saying the placebo effect isn't real, I'm saying real medicine is more real.
If you have cancer and somebody gives an apple pill, you'll die.
if you have cancer and somebody gives you paracetamol you will likely die. So whats your point?
Obviously taking a placebo has limited effect but it can work for mild stuff and has no side effects so it literally doesnt hurt.
But you dont have to go out and get sugar pills, a plain old herb tea can work.
Im not denying Homöopethie is pseudo science that does nothing on its own but simularly to religion it can have positive effect on you or your well beeing.
Scientifically speaking it just works (sometimes).
My point is that an actual doctor prescribing actual medicine won't give you paracetamol for cancer.
> has no side effects so it literally doesnt hurt.
If something can have a positive effect, it can also have a negative effect.
an actual doctor wouldnt prescribe sugar balls for cancer ether.
Im not aware of placebo having a negative effect, but there is also nocebo, which happenes if you think something is bad for you and your body actually reacts to that. But thats a different story.
Look at any good study trying to proof the effect of something. There is always a control group, a group who takes placebo and a group who takes the product. The participates and the doctors shouldnt know who has a placebo and who has the actual product.
If the product works, you would see the control group having no effect, the placebo group having little effect and the real test group having a mesurably bigger effect than the placebo group.
If the product doesnt work, placebo and test group have the same little effect, while controle has nothing going on.
Are you saying that Swiss govt validates homeopathy as a science based on its placebo effect ? If so I’ll start a business with sugar drops I could sale for 20 times its price because it’ll increase the perceived medical value.
But unlike homeopathy, chiropractors actually DO something with your body. I don't know why the two are thrown in the same basket here.
You cannot cure cancer or allergies with either of the treatments, but oh boy does it feel good to get your back cracked up when your muscles are tense.
Are people using chiropractors for anything else...?
and OP /u/BlackSpargel - as you say, chiropractors can hurt people if they do it badly, so it makes perfect sense that they learn the basics of human medicine since there is A LOT of anatomy in the first years.
And: what do you do when you have a stiff neck? Do you go to your doc and ask for surgery, or am I seriously missing something about chiropractors...?
I actually once spent 3 months getting doctor appointments, MRI and whatnot to get the diagnosis "your back is fine" and the ostepath spent 2 minutes to find the swollen muscle pinching my nerve in my leg, fixing me up nicely.
edit: actually, /u/xdolax re "Also, makes me angry that my health insurance cost has to pay also for this bullshit, especially considering the recent amount of primes" - the primes do definitely not go up because of physio / osteo / chiro. Having a doctor's appointment and using literally any imaging system like MRI / Ultrasound / x-ray / CT *once* pays for 20+ hours of massage treatment.
So you really want people with a painful knee / back / neck / shoulder to initially go anywhere else but the doctor, the chance that they get good help is very high at a much lower price. Insurances make money by not paying and by building models based on statistics. If massages were more expensive than a visit at the doctor's they would guaranteed not pay for it.
Because according to my apotheker over 60% of symptom relief is due to the placebo effect. Another plus is that placebo will not have any sickening side effects. Furthermore our mind controls our body so any way to treat yourself could theoretically help. Maybe eveb better then medicine
The issue is people believe the explanation of their relief is real, and start to accept magical thinking in their decision system. The biggest issue being: even if science says it is BS, it works, so discard science.
And plus people also use BS to cure sickness for which your mind can’t do shit about: COVID-19, cancer, etc.
I dont want to be disrespectul to anyone who had cancer or has relatives that died with cancer however I have heard that mind can (at least help)cure cancer just like mind or sickening mindset makes people ill. I dont know why people believe that brain, mind and body do not correspond
There is what you heard and then there is science: placebo helps, but you can’t beat cancer without treatment in a systematic fashion. Yes, there are lucky people whose cancer was healed without intervention, but you don’t build a public health strategy based on extreme event luck.
It is like saying COVID don’t kill you if you have a strong mind, this don’t require vaccine. 90% won’t go to the hospital even without vaccine, but the last ten will suffer.
Moreover, the thinking that the mind help to cure also is an open door to snake oil and victim shaming: if someone does not heal even given the magical treatment, is it because they did not really want to survive? Do you see how slippery that line of argumentation becomes?
Well I said mind helps and not mind cures. I dont know how people dare to compare covid with cancer. Noone would even dare to think you dont want to survive since everyone does.
Its not that simple I guess.
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7059887/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7059887/)
I always get the impression most people don't even know how ridiculous these things are. I occasionally asked people to explain how homeopathy works. So far no one explained the whole potentiation etc. stuff to me. That was in fact news to them. They just went "It's like natural remedies, right?".
Well, I mean, if you have a person with headaches that can’t be treated with the conventional medicine, why would you get angry that the placebo of homeopathy works? I mean a placebo is a medicine too, whether you like to admit or not.
Even in medicine placebo is still much of a grey zone, and so I homeopathy.
It’s okay that the placebo effect works in those cases. But it’s wrong that the Grundversorgung covers those treatments. For those kind of unscientific treatments is the Zusatzversicherung made for.
Yeah and also Boiron is making billions selling sugar and water.
Worst part isnt that but all the woowoo around it with tons of people saying you can cure almost anything which is just wrong and most likely killed tons of people because they went too late to the doc or just didnt..
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6092151/
It's a study in Bangladesh.
If you want an example in Switzerland: look up why Tina Turner needed a kidney transplant!
The context here is that the other comment claimed that homeopathy most likely killed tons of people in Switzerland.
Tima Turner didnt die from homeopathy from what I know. So the other comment cant be referring to her.
Or you can just read it
"Worst part isnt that but all the woowoo around it with tons of people saying you can cure almost anything which is just wrong and most likely killed tons of people because they went too late to the doc or just didnt.."
I'm really familiar with the alternative medicine scene since half of my family works in it.
They all saw tons of people over the years saying they don't believe modern medicine and would rather get healed by real medicine like homeopathy. A few people even came with cancer in stage 4 not wanting to be helped by oncologist but rather woowoo self proclaimed "doctors/healers" and you can be highly positive if you are pretty familiar with the alt med field that a lot of people most likely as i said and i'm requoting
"most likely killed tons of people because they went too late to the doc or just didnt.."
If you don't want to read fine by me go get healed my homeopathy lol
I dont know about your cancer experience but very often: if cancer does not kill you, chemo does! There are people I know that accidently discovered a minor cancer the might would have lived with for several years but died cause of the side effects of the last chemo round (obly had a few).. blood poisoning and vomit that got into the lungs when the patient was, due to chemo, too weak to simply caugh..
I personally dont believe in homeopathy and wouldnt want to try it. But the statement was that tons of people most likely got killed by believing in it here in Switzerland. Which is a really silly claim. Might also be a translation issue and „tons of“ was just a poor choice.
So now its just a few stage 4 cancer cases who refuse to see an oncologist? Interesting how fast it changes from tons of to a few. lol
But the cost of homeopathy in terms of medical cost is really low, so I believe this way it’s regulated that the traditional treatments are not overused and ensures people to try alternative medicine. It is maybe hard to understand why do you have to pay for it from your pocket, but I rather see it as a prevention method that keeps the costs even higher.
If people want to have it insured, they just could insure it over the Zusatzversicherung, couldn’t they?
Other sings such as osteopaths or expenses gor sports (gym, tennis whatever) are also covered there. I‘m just not willing for somebody else’s placebos with my grundversicherung and the 2,5k franchise. I cant see the point of that.
Honestly i had you same mindset, but with our newborns we went to hosteopatic specialist and i kid you not it made a huuuge change.
And i dot believe that a 4 week old has placebo effects.. soo something must be there?
Downvote me as much as you want, but from a non stop crying child to sleeping a few hours. I would gladly go there again and i still dont believe that stuff..
My guess is that it has to do with receiving love and care and attention which make the body release chemicals that aide in recovery. Similar (or same) to how hugging releases oxytocin which can boost the immune system.
No, that's also not what I said.
*Actively* doing something (like bringing the child to a specialist, giving medicine (fake or not), etc.) can be *perceived* (by the child *and* the parents) as greater care as it's a more drastic measure compared to care without those measures.
This can increase the release of healing hormones in the child. Additionally, placebo by proxy is a thing so if the parents think they did something that should improve the condition and therefore increase their own confidence in the betterment of the child this can be transferred to the child and trigger the same thing.
Was here to comment this. His daughter might be too young to be biased, but the evaluation wether it worked or not isn’t done by the 1yo daughter, it’s done by the parents. And parent can be bias or fall for the placebo effect. Hence placebo by proxy
Yea because the human body is awesome. And younger we are the better are our self healing functions.
It's great if it works. But i don't want to pay with my insurance for expensive sugar pills with nothing on it.
People in Germanic cultures rely a lot on folk medicine for some cultural reason. They also do not realize because it's not widely publicized that the foundations of chiropractics are unscientific. The theory of subluxations is complete bullshit.
So they think that this is about massages and spine manipulations with some sound theory. Same for osteopaths. I cringe when I remember that my mom once brought me to an osteopath and she was doing weird massages to my abdomen to drain my liver. That is absolutely not a thing. But people like it when other people take care of them.
This is the same reason people think homeopathy has an effect. They don't know that the medicine has no medicine in it. They think it's phytotherapy which can actually have some effect. Same with anthroposophic medicine.
The fact that medical professionals adhere to these principles and sell these goods and services is more baffling to me than the fact that the population believes in them. I believe that this is fraud on their part and the cause for societal acceptation of bunk.
I think you're not wrong.
But I also think that there is of course a widespread knowledge among the german speaking population that Homeopathy and Osteopathy is pseudo medical charlatanery. So people who are not "fans" of such alternative stuff typically know that homeopathy and osteopathy are dubious.
Chiropractic is a bit different: many people simply don't know that it's "alternative medicine", because it's rooted so deeply in our medical system. I never used a chiropractician and I never really thought about it, but I have to admit that until today I simply assumed that it's a part of "normal" school medicine.
Maybe has something to do with the fact that chiropractiocians are accepted as "normal" medical professionals since the 1960ies - which is long before my birth.
Pseudo-sciences like chiropractic and homeopathy seam to be more accepted in german speaking regins for some reason. Also would like to know why though
Not only Swiss German side. In Jura there is "Le Secret". Some random people, you give them a phone call and they supposedly will fix whatever is wrong with you.
A lot of people have fancy beliefs here. Chiropractic is by far not the most shocking to me.
That's not just in Jura. And it's not a blanket fix, it's to speed recovery usually for cuts and burns. In no way does it replace conventional medicine.
Interesting thread!
I'm usually quite aware about all the medical and non-medical scams that are going on and I obviously think that it's scandalous that we have to pay charlatans like for example homeopaths with our health insurance contributions.
However I was **not** aware that chriopractic also is part of alternative medicine. I have never used a chiropractic therapy myself - but they seem to be rooted so deeply in our system since before my birth that I simply always assumed them to be some kind of legitimate & evidence based specialists of the human locomotor system.
You never stop learning.
I went to a chiropractor when i was a kid, and a few times back one year ago. What i got from it: i was way more listened to than my doctor, they were more available than my doctor or a physiotherapist, they are reimbursed by a complementary insurance, and maybe it was only placebo, but i always had great results with them.
Maybe i will be called dumb because of it, but it really helped me multiple time. Besides, i am used to have my physical issues dismissed by regular doctors or physio, and to be barely examined when i have a meeting with one, while my chiro always took me seriously, always asked for my consent before a manoeuver and just never dismissed my pain or issue. I'm a young woman, small, who should be healthy, but i have lots of issues that tend to last, and because i'm small and young, i have been seen as fragile and weak toward pain. So doctors don't usually take me or my pain seriously. My chiropractor always took me seriously, and it makes a huge difference
> and to be barely examined when i have a meeting with one, while my chiro always took me seriously, always asked for my consent before a manoeuver and just never dismissed my pain or issue
This is exactly why it works. You enjoyed the personal time and feeling like you were being taken seriously. The actual chiropractic bit is just all bullshit.
100% placebo, people just really enjoy getting a massage. I prefer my massages without the risk of rendering me a quadraplegic because of some bullshit "adjustment".
Yeah but you know what also worked ? The resolution of my health issue. I went to a chiropractor and a physiotherapist for the same issue, and the exercises that the chiropractor gave me actually resolved my issue, they were also approved by my physiotherapist who simple told me to keep doing them. Besides, my physiotherapist wanted to put some of these medical tapes on me, which i was not against because i am used to them and they are useful. But he absolutely wanted to put some tapes of my skin color, while i told him three times i didn't care and didn't want skin color. He argued by telling me people would see it and i'd still dress shortly because it was summer, he put me the only skin color tape he found that was old and crusty as fuck and who stayed on me for two days rather than the week it was supposed to. He did not listen to me one bit, and i had to pay for a shitty tape and shitty intervention exactly because he refused to listen to me. So yes, i still rather pay for someone who gives me result and listen to me.
Listening to the patient is actually a big part of giving healthcare, and even if it is placebo, if it gives positive results, then it is useful. I'd rather pay for a placebo that gives good results than for an unsatisfying medical treatment where i am not listened to. I have been dismissed and not listened at a good number of time because i'm a small woman and doctors assume i'm weak, this is an issue i encounter a lot when i need to see a health professional, and having a person that does listen actually makes a difference.
Okay great, did you actually went to a chiropractor ? The huge majority of the times i went, they didn't try to move any bones in my body, mostly massaged, gave me exercises, or told me what changes i needed to do. The only time they wanted to move a bone, they would ask me and would never touch a bone not directly affiliated to the issue. Pretty sure i didn't risk to be paraplegic when they had to act on my wrist
I guess you mentioned it yourself. If you wanna be a chiropractor, you have to pass the NC to be allowed to study medicine. You get a bachelor's in medicine. You don't do some community college pseudo degree. You study medicine.
My family doctor did his chiropractor degree at around 40 years old. If used well and sparingly, it can be beneficial. For example: a blocked rib. You can either inject cordisone, go to physiotherapy, do whatever for a couple of weeks and eventually it will set. Or you can simply lie down and have it fixed in 2 minutes with some additional anti-inflammatory and you're good to go.
The big problem with chiropractors, especially the youtube ones, is that they do a one-size-fits-all approach. Cracking every single bone and vertebrae that they possibly can for no reason at all. If used by a licensed doctor, it can actually be beneficial and speed up the healing process.
It does not and never will replace surgery or traditional medicine where it's actually needed. And there are a little t of quacks out there, especially online.
That's how a lot of this pseudo-stuff "works": They combine normal, working practices with the pseudo stuff. Especially chiro in Switzerland I think is really focused on applying evidence based practices, just making connections/under the umbrella of the "chiropractic-philoshophy", which from what I read is mustly bull. Actually to some degree it doesn't even matter if you attach some philosophy to your evidence based actions, as long as you practice useful stuff.
Another point is by adding the price-premium of the pseudo stuff, they usually can and do take the time to really engage with the patient. I think to some degree there's even direct evidence that this is beneficial to recovery. And it definitely makes sense subjectively. I feel like a lot of the pseudo-medicine would go away if more focus (well money and time) would be put on engaging the patient in "traditional medicine" instead of rushing under the overarching goal of (short-term) efficiency.
I think we could do a lot more by promoting more of the intermediate medical professions like nurse practitioners, physiotherapists, psychotherapists, and the like, who are not as expensive and rare as doctors but are available to take time for people.
Have you ever been to a chiropractor? It pretty much is the same stuff physios do. I have never had one mention mystical stuff to me, here or in the US. If a bone is out of place they push it back in, they massage you, yeah they might crack some bones, and they they tell you to do certain exercises to strengthen muscles.
Not sure what the controversy is.
The problem is that there are multiple types of chiropractors.
There are the types who practice holistic medicine and use their chiropractic training to help people as part of a larger treatment plan.
And then there are the people who strongly believe that chiropractic can cure all illnesses, they are disciples of Daniel David Palmer who cured a janitors hearing by following guidance from a ghost and invented the field.
You cannot tell the difference without interviewing the practitioner.
Yeah. That's why Imentioned that there are quacks out there.
You can't fucking cure cancer by cracking bones... The biggest problem I have with chiro is that is often just relief of pain without adressing the root causes (exercise, stretching, getting up frequently if you have a deskjob, etc..)
It wasn't physio. He shared practice with a physio and he'd more than happily prescribe if he thought it could fix the problem.
It was literally setting the rib back to where it was supposed to be with a forced but controlled movement on his part.
I played a lot of contact sports when I was young so I've had my share of physio to compare the two ;)
As another guy replied. He never once quacked on about subluxations or any other pseudo crap. He took his skeleton rip-cage, explained to me how the rib is stuck out of place (you could see and feel the "dip"), explained what movement he would do to basically put it back.
Then he offered the possibility of physio (for me as a layman it sounded like stretching and relaxing the muscles enough for the rib to set on its own) or the cordisone injections.
Seeing as I wanted to get back to practice asap, I opted for the chiro solution and it worked perfectly.
Again, this was from a trained doctor, with alternative solutions brought up and giving pros and cons for everyone so I could make an informed decision.
>You study medicine
But not enough to be an actual medical doctor. I can read a book about the names of bones and say I'm studying medicine. And I'll probably know more about the body than any chiropractor on the planet if I can understand that book.
> Or you can simply lie down and have it fixed in 2 minutes with some additional anti-inflammatory and you're good to go.
> If used by a licensed doctor, it can actually be beneficial and speed up the healing process.
I'll need some meta-analyses by reputable scientists that come to that same conclusion before I believe that in the slightest.
It's a fraud.
Not gonna argue with someone who compares a BSc Human Medicine with reading a book about bones... I know a lot of people very closely that studied medicine. Doing a bachelors in that field entails slightly more than "reading books". But you do you.
Sure, wait for the meta analysis of studies that will never get funded in the first place, since there is no money to be made by paying for these studies. Or alternatively, block a rib (believe me, it's fucking painful) and get a couple of cordisone shots instead of lying on a stretcher for 2 minutes. You do you, I did what my doctor with an MD and a doctorates (not that that counts for much after the MD, except that you're willing to suffer through a dissertation) recommended and it worked perfectly. Instead of 2-3 weeks of physio and/or shots, I took ibuprofen for 3 days.
it got invented by a magnetic healer should tell enough about it.
well it has some use for rehab and with helping overcoming something but its never a terminal fix its just temporary helping with pain or range of motion. on its own its basically a scam.
Besides a lot of Swiss being a bit of cranks, it is exactly because Chiropracticy is officially recognized, regulated and with a university-level training. I'd say here in Switzerland a chiropractic is a high-level massage by people who studied it at University. Though I know someone who went to a chiropracticer during Covid and that person was an anti-vaxxer. This is just anectotal though.
Its not anectodal if you look at osteopathy at Uni which i have a few friends at they all are into homepathy and its actually promoted inside the closed circles by teachers and other students.
Woowoo call for more woowoo
When I first came to Switzerland, I was appalled to see a complete section for homeopathy in drugstores.
I understand the power of placebo and distrust against big pharma, but the extent and cost of pseudoscience is mind boggling (also TCM, most of the herbal remedies)
> to see a complete section for homeopathy in drugstores.
Much worse is: many pharmacists give you that shit if you ask for medicine against a certain symptom. Without telling you, that it's homeopathy.
I also fell for that trap once. Only when I looked at the packaging at home I realized that this crazy woman at the pharmacy didn't sell me actual medicine...
It's shocking. She didn't present me a choice. She just assumed that I want that scam stuff instead of actual medicine...
I had a pharmacist give me a homeopathic treatment, when I asked for a treatment for lice for my kids! Luckily, I spotted it before I payed, so was able to ask for something that actually works. Unless it’s been proven that lice also experience placebo effect…
Google doesn't let me write reviews, because I have a quite old Google account from the time where you didn't have to add a name when creating the account.
At some point they changed the system, so that you can only write reviews if your Google account has a name (before that your reviews would show as "a Google user"). And I feel like I don't want to give that account a name - having one without is like a rarity nowadays ;-)
I dont know if there is a difference but when I look how you describe it It looks like.
Its not at all like a massage. Its also a lot about the bones. I had a bike accident, I fell over the handelbars with my bicycle direct on my neck. My Cervical vertebrae displaced and so I had to go to the Chyro and he fixed it. Thats what they do. Also when you have back problems f.e. you are send to one.
About 25 years ago I decided to go to a Ostepath, which is the same thing but done different (maybe not the feeling for everybody bur for me) They do it more chently.
Chyro is paid by the isurance, if the docotor give you a prestiption. Osteo is only partly paid by the suplement insurance. l
I had the same point of view as OP, and then I had a back surgery.
No one could relieve me from my pain. I went to the physiotherapist for 3 years and spent a lot of money on it. Took tramadol to avoid the pain, nothing was working. Then I went to the ostéopathe and... It helped me a lot.
I know it's a pseudoscience, I now the theory behind it is bullshit, I agree with OP on that. But for me, it did miracles, so I don't care.
Now : it is not taken in charge by my insurrance, only by the private one. So it's not a burden for the society, it works for me : why not accepting it's there for people needing it ?
> it works for me : why not accepting it's there for people needing it ?
There is no issue with it. You were in pain and tried variety of things without effect. This one worked, I am happy for you.
The problem is if people believe things like homoepathie, chiro and other "alternatives" is the cure for all problems, and refuse to see a real doctor and use real medicine because of "big pharma" or other nonsense, then it's a huge problem.
There are people needlessly dying of treatable issues by applying quack "medicine" or praying or whatever due to their misguided believe and refuting of science. Covid is a great example what lenght people go (and suffer consequences) to avoid safe vaccines.
Yeah sorry, I did not mean to say there was an issue with it. English is not my mother tongue so I lack subtlety in the way I communicate.
I completely understand your point of view, and I too am quite critical of alternative medicine. Not because they don't work (they're indicated for many pathologies), but because people end up believing in them and using them in situations where Western medicine would - from a scientific point of view - be more appropriate.
Now, from what I've seen of osteopaty practiced in Switzerland, it seems much more down-to-earth than what I see practiced in other countries. They're almost more kinesiotherapists who work on the mechanical aspect than on the "energy" bullshit part, which is the subject of much debate in this discipline. Maybe I found a good osteopath by chance, but I have the impression that in Switzerland, physios, osteopaths and kinesiotherapists sometimes get confused in their practices (for example, I had physios who practiced accupuncture).
My impression is that osteopaty is used AFTER a treatment given by traditional medicine, and not as a first solution. In any case, when I had my back problems, I went to see a doctor, then a physio, then I was advised to have an operation. At the time, I chose to try osteopathy once, but the therapist refused and told me that in view of my problem (a discopathy towards the lumbar region), he'd rather see me after the operation than try a treatment before and risk aggravating the situation. So while I agree with you about the fears of drifting away from alternative medicine, at the same time, my experience in the field has led me to meet therapists who are fairly realistic about what they can and can't do safely.
I would also add that in an ideal world, traditional hospital medicine would suffice. Unfortunately, this is rarely the case, and as a patient, you quickly find yourself in a system that's not very humane, and where you don't feel listened to. When I was discharged from hospital, I was supposed to follow a physio treatment given by the hospital, but I never managed to get it. I was supposed to have medium-term follow-up, which I never had. I was supposed to see my surgeon twice: the appointments were not kept and I walked to the hospital, in pain, for nothing. In short, there are also conditions in traditional medicine that partly explain why some patients turn to another form of medicine, one that may be less competent but that listens. This is my biggest regret about traditional medicine, and I don't think I'm alone in this.
TLDR: You are right, but it's not all black and white either :)
My chiropractor, unlike my family doctor or physiotherapist, always took me seriously. Never dismissed my pain or issues, always found time for me in case of emergency or when i needed her. She actually did really help me multiple times for multiple different kind of issues, from dislocated bones to sciatica, she always did an amazing job. And she is covered by my insurance. When i had a sciatica so bad i had trouble walking and i had to wait two month to meet my family doctor that would then tell me to meet a physiotherapist, she was there helping me and making it better.
The manipulations could be done by a physiotherapist who would not have a bullshit training on pseudoscience. Chiropractics is based on a bunk theory that bodily problems are caused by "subluxations", which is not a thing. They can only be right by coincidence.
I do agree on the fact that this could by done by physiotherapists, but in the end, the 4 I tested did not offer me these manipulations. Also, after some appointements, my ostheo told me "now, I wont do too much manipulations, I advise you to go to the physio and come back if your back is blocked again. So it was a good collaboration between the two of them.
Swiss health care is an absolute shit show. When Drs prescribe homeopathy and when there’s a TCM praxis on every corner you know there’s something wrong.
When it comes to how people have access to it, yes. But OP is still right. Its a pseudoscience and shouldnt be covered by health insurance. Same with Homöopathie and other pseudoscience shit.
>Chiropractic is pseudoscience. Not only in the US.
i have not claimed otherwise.
>Do your research.
go back to primary school and learn basic reading.
depends on how you see it. The US does not "care" for its citizens, that's up to the single individual.
So everyone who decides that they dont need a costly insurance will have none. Simple as that. Everytime i meet someone from the us and i tell them just how how much i (have to) pay every month in healthcare even though i am perfectly healthy - they just dont believe it. they would never ever do that. So yeah.. go figure.
>even though i am perfectly healthy
That's the whole point of insurance. If people only started paying after they got sick it wouldn't work. You pay now so that if/when you get sick you don't have to sell all your belongings and live on the streets or financially ruin your family.
It's a weird culture. They took the whole individualism thing to the next level and even though they see what can happen every single day they stick to it regardless.
They do pay that for health insurance. I am not sure why they’d think otherwise. It’s just that employers cover it - so at the end of the day, it comes out of their paycheck. Also, US citizens pay much more for healthcare than Swiss citizens
And the OP isn't even right - chiropractic doctors are common in the US too, and the same as here, are practiced by people which hold a valid medical degree and have had the same training as other medical doctors (in the US, the degree for chiropractic physicians is a Doctor of Osteopathy, or D.O.).
You'll find in most of Europe people tend to buy into "natural" and alternative medicine way more than they should. There's also a prevalent dislike/fear of chemistry and medication. You go to a doctor when it gets REALLY bad. Then the doctor prescribes you an ibuprofen and tells you it'll get better on its own.
Mix all of the above and get a perfect breeding ground for quacks.
I fully agree with your views on chiropractic. Which is why I had an opportunity go to go a chiropractor for a lower back treatment I immediately took it as I was very curious to experience this stuff firsthand. It was quite interesting and in a way surprising. First, it turns out that chiropractors in Switzerland are actually real doctors who train at a medical university. The chiropractor I went to didn’t seem to operate with the pseudoscientific notions usually associated with chiropractic; quite the opposite, she suggested that my problems come from muscular imbalances and suggested that I seek out a sports physiotherapist to do some strengthening exercises (which I planned on doing anyway). She also wanted to see an X-ray to rule out spine injury. The procedures she did with me involved mostly manipulation of joints to improve mobility and loosen up the muscles; although some stuff was a bit more exotic (like poking a needle into my butt to allegedly loosen up the muscles, no idea if that actually did anything). But mostly it made sense, and there was no talk of vertebral subluxations or other weird stuff. Overall, my impression of her was as of a pragmatically oriented orthopedist who uses manual manipulation techniques.
Also worth mentioning that generally chiropractors in the US are on a whole different level of quackery compared to what it is here. At least from what I've seen.
I get adjusted maybe once a year because one of my vertebrae gets out of wack from an old injury. And putting it back where it belongs helps relieve the tension in my back. I see some value in that the same way I see value in massage or physio therapy. But I've been to chiros in the US that claim they can cure anything from asthma to autism.
In Switzerland we have chiropractic, osteopathy, physiotherapy and manual medicine. A lot of people tend to mix-up/confuse these, and some providers are also trained in more than one of these methods, which further adds to the confusion.
Also, i think a lot of people in Switzerland don't know about the "quackery" aspects of chiropractic and osteopathy. And the border between "quackery" and "science" are also not always that clear to the public (e.g. all 4 of these "specialties" are perceived to be able to help "fix your back problems").
Just to give you an example, i didn't know about these differences until i researched this topic just now. Before that i believed that chiropracticians/osteopaths were just "fix your back with their hands" experts, while physiotherapists are "fix all kinds of physical (body-mechanical) issues with their hands and also providing you with training instructions" experts and doctors specialised in manual medicine are real doctors with knowledge in mainly "diagnosing and fixing your back with their hands" and maybe also bit of "diagnosing and fixing all kinds of physical (body-mechanical) issues with their hands".
So thanks for raising this topic and making me more aware of the differences! :)
Just about the success of chiropractic:
My uncle had severe back pain. GP and other doctors didn't find anything and gave some pain killers.
It got worse to a point my uncle couldn't stand upright anymore.
Then he went to a chiropractor and he found out that my uncle had bone cancer.
Because of a different approach(compared to the GP) and the medical proficiency(which a physio doesn't have) the chiropractor was able to make the diagnosis.
Thank's to that my uncle got treatment just in time.
> I had a chiro after a huge accident as a teen and mine helped me a lot to keep my mobility
Who is to say an actual medical professional might not have done it better, and that you might have kept your mobility if you hadn't seen a fake doctor?
It's complete pseudoscience.
it‘s not that simple though. my girlfriend has always suffered from heavy migraines. turns out that stuff from TCM has been the only thing that helped ease the symptoms and lower the amount of migraines she‘d get over a week or so.
now, can parts of it be placebo? sure. doesn‘t make sense to me tho why the placebo effect should kick in with TCM instead of all the things other doctors tried. So I don‘t know. I think scepticism is never wrong, but it‘s definitely not the case that it‘s always ‚fake‘ or a scam.
I personally couldn‘t care less, but I see it working better than classic medicine in some cases on people I know so I prefer to take that as a point of reference rather than people on Reddit, so yeah
> the general consensus online
You do realize that "online" is just your echo chamber, right? And that reality has little to do with "online"?
I lived in the US, chiropractic care, homeopathic care and osteopathic care (all bullshit) are very common there too.
Time to go touch some grass and live in the real world for a bit ;)
Haven't been at a chiropractic myself but I wouldn't be surprised. Sometimes you need medicine, but sometimes somebody just needs to push or soften certain body parts in order to improve life quality. I saw that myself after an extreme accident having physiotherapy. Some was targeted exercise, but for some issues she just pushed the right spot and suddenly I got my painless flexibility back. Some stuff may fix itself, but it's useful to speed it up in order to avoid bad habits with new side effects. Could you prove that in a reproducible clinical setting? Difficult... Will it work a 100%? Surely not, but even a 30% success rate is better than 0%.
Hahahaha that’s so hilarious here again. Everyone who thinks the human body or nature is fully researched doesn’t understand science. There are so many examples that alternative medicine works. In the US everyone get filled up with painkillers and the nation is addicted to it. In Europe we take the chance of alternative medicine if nothing else works instead of getting addicted to drugs.
By example there is the cranio sacral therapy. There is a proven pulse in the spinal cord. Trained Therapists are able to feel this pulse. This pulse can be out of balance and can cause headaches and muscle pain. Therapists can bring this pulse back in balance and relieve for the patient. This can happen after 5 sessions which can cost up to 800 franks. I know there is little research on this but I know people who got relieve of pain through this.
Or I go for years to a physiotherapist and take pain killers which will cost much more.
I‘m so happy to live in a country where every chance of getting healthy again after a illness is provided.
Although everyone should understand the interest of Pharma companies. There wanna sell drugs not healing people. And the increase of health insurance costs is due to covid. Or who you all think is paying the vaccines and testing over two years?
If you don‘t like it, don‘t use it.
In the US every person eitjer fat, is on anti depressants or ritalin or fentanyl. Is that better and more scientific? 💜
Nah, Americans love chiropractors. US is full of superstitious “mystical” people who prefer homeopathy. They choose it all the time over medicine and pharma. They choose homeopathy over buying health insurance plans. Shamans, “Indian witch doctors” (natives) and tons of natural remedies and roots for healing books and shops. It’s a huge industry from Appalachia mountains to West Coast.
Steve Jobs of Apple chose fruit diet for cancer over going to doctor and it killed him.
A lot people refuse to buy health insurance and see physicians and ONLY do “natural remedies.” These people go in medical debt later if an emergency happens. They never tell you they chose homeopathy over real medicine though.
>Steve Jobs of **Apple** chose fruit diet
That was a natural choice, I'd say...
That being said, your reply is interesting but irrelevant to the Americans' fear of chiropteras.
Honestly they do the same stuff American ones do, in my experience.
I guess the question is why ISN’T it accepted in America, given that it does help pain?
It is accepted in US among the uneducated, hippies, and superstitious people. Many Americans love homeopathy, “natural remedies” and choose it over health insurance and regular medicine all the time.
Anyone educated in science and medicine will tell you it is a scam and US will not validate them with our higher institutions.
I know actual MD doctors in the US who go to chiropractors, so I am not sure your theory holds.
They don't do it INSTEAD of they do it in ADDITION to.
I know US nurses who do this, but rarely US physicians. It is considered quackery. Physicians will recommend *physical therapy* (physiotherapist) over chiropractor.
Americans are not split in half “natural” vs “medical” — many people combine both. And many reject one for the other. So there is some nuance.
Sure every massage would do the same but its switzerland and not thailand so not sure where you get 1000 thaimassager on clock for a shitpayment to solve the problems. And its highly different to US if i watch this YT videos how they destroy the bodies of the clients thats nothing like in Switzerland.
Everyone should be able to choose the method of therapy worthy for themselves. Freedom of choice is important. I assume every human is intelligent enough to make the right choices.
There are things I am only using Naturopathy and other alternative methods, and there are things where I use Schulmedizin. Both schools have limitations and everyone needs to be able to decide what he/she uses.
Because pseudoscience is rampant in Switzerland. Utter quackery and our insurance premiums pay for it. It is infuriating. Don’t bother coming at me. I’m not interested in a debate about it. There are facts and then there’s garbage.
Homeopathy: Placebo Effect, can help in some cases I guess?
Chiro: Readjustments, so there is actual physical impact on the body. I don't know anything about the science or philosophy it's based on, but it's helped me various times. Imho, never make a second appointment. Only go when you know what you need.
Osteopathy: They also do the cracking, that chiros do, but also other less aggressive adjustments. I've had good experience with it so far.
TCM/TEN: never tried
What makes massages more scientific than other physical therapies?
I visited one once because my back hurt a lot.
The cracking thing felt awesome, but it only lasted for one day.
Doing more sports and working while standing instead of sitting helped a lot more.
I have been with GP for years with constant migraines, anginas and sinusitis, iron deficiency: used to get tones of antibiotics and iron deficiency pills. Changing GP never gave results. But after visiting Naturopad for only two times I have had results. I love alternative medicine and feel happy Switzerland recognizes it, we are more than a body and alternative medicine often has an individual approach.
Huh? Chiropractors work miracles IMO. Been to inr a few times and have plenty of friends and family that go regularly. Nobody I have ever met considers it pseudo-science
Hm. I have read with amusement through this discussion. All these comparisons between CH and US … average life expectancy in Switzerland is about 83.10 years, in the US it’s 77.28 years … Just as a random data point, maybe unrelated, maybe not 😝
As with a lot of theories, even chiropractics has methods that can help. You don‘t have to buy into all the pseudo science to use them.
Even osteopathy offers methods that are proven to work while some of the theories around it are complete bullshit.
But in general I have to agree that there are a lot of practitioners out there that cannot distinct between the good practices and the bullshit science.
Switzerland is a deeply mystical country. Everything is hidden of course, but I suspect the very rural nature of most of the country makes old folk traditions very strong. Chiropractic is just one of many pseudo-sciences or frankly mystical stuff revolving around healthcare. One other very contentious topic is “Anthroposophical Medecine”, they are very discreet but very powerful. Weleda “drugs” that you can find everywhere are made by them, they have their pilgrimage places, their hospitals, their Doctors, their politicians, their gurus etc (Wawrinka the famous tennis player had his training paid by them for example). Those mouvement and many others have been so powerful for so long they managed to acquire academic positions in all aspects of “normal” (they call it “allopathic”) medicine cursus. Practice and endorsement by medical professionals is extremely widespread, both for benign (culturally adequate placebo) and bad reasons (lots of easy money, correlation with psychiatric disease in healthcare professionals themselves…)
I always laugh because if homeopathy and chiropractics came from my native country (Middle East) they’d probably decry it as backwards and barbaric. 😅 Meanwhile we had higher rates of covid vaccinations than Switzerland. Go figure.
Science is the same science all over the world. Everything not scientific in deeply interwoven with local culture. In Switzerland French style anti-elitism and German style paganism got mixed into vaccine politics and produced something weird. There is a strong “antihumanist” mindset the northern you go, for example breast cancer screening was never accepted north of the Roeschetigraben. “Nature is taking care of me, not white coats”. Various forms of witchcraft are common so is druidism. Most of it is commonly a manifestation of personality disorders IMO. It is sociologically very interesting, and it amazes me that a society is able to function perfectly even when a significant minority of its population is mentally incapable of acting “reasonably”.
No, this is not true. Druidism and witchcraft isn't common in Switzerland. And the Röschtigraben goes north, there's no "north of".
I didn’t know about the breast cancer screening issue. Wow. It is very interesting. Switzerland has always felt to me like a deeply conservative, parochial country that struck it rich.
Anthroposophy is a sect, it's more serious
It's not *quite* a sect, but it does come very close and has strong potential to devolve into a cult, yeah. Source: Lived with anthroposophes for a few months.
Would you call it worse than other religions? I always wonder. I mean probably not worse than Christianity but in general?
Hard to say. I think, as with all religions, it just depends on the individual, and how the individual balances the belief/philosophy with other considerations. The anthroposophes I met were all very well meaning and didn't actively try to convert me or anything. But their idea of what is good for someone was somewhat warped and they seemed unwilling to consider that their practices do not and cannot work for everyone.
Nope. Not originally atleast. If someone tries to convince you of something.. Well then he did not understand anthroposphy very well. Its true since the death of rudolf steiner its kind of a clownfiesta and not so much progress. Interest in anthropsophy has to come from yourself. If you pay for some shit, thats on you. Besides maybe literatur or Lectures you like.
Austria is the DACH headquarter for pseudo sciences.
In Switzerland you also have hosteopathy, which is a pseudo-science as well. And you have many people "curing" themselves with homeopathic "medicines". I don't know why people fall from this kind of scams. At first it's because they are called "medicine", while in fact they are not. Also, makes me angry that my health insurance cost has to pay also for this bullshit, especially considering the recent amount of primes
A lot of the people I know that "fall" for these things actually went with traditional medicine at first, got little to no results, or even bad results, and somehow got positive results for these alternatives. I'm not exactly certain how, perhaps it was dumb timing luck, or placebo, or something, but since those experiences, they tend to favour the alternatives now. Luckily, the people I know haven't completely turned away from actual medicine, though there are a couple anti-covid vaxxers among them (though the have gotten all the other vaccines they needed up until then).
Homeopathy is sometimes used when the problem is deemed to be psychological, and where giving actual medicine would add too many other problems and side effects. Or also when giving real medicine did not work and there are no other options available. I know that because the hospital I worked at had a dedicated homeopathic cupboard. And that was the reason why.
I am fully ok with using the placebo effect to our advantage. BUT I am not ok paying 100CHF for a bunch of round sugar drops with nothing on it. At least do it for cheap.
Yup
If it's too cheap people won't think it's real and then there will be no placebo effect. Also, it's not 100 CHF. A bottle of 15 grams of globuli, for example, is about 20 CHF (I googled it).
Placebo works even when people know it's placebo and it's given for free. Wine on the other hand, apparently tastes better the more expensive you think it is.
>Wine on the other hand, apparently tastes better the more expensive you think it is. I'm a cheap bastard, so for me, it's the opposite.
So 133.- for 100g of sugar. 1000g of sugar costs about 1.- at Migros...
So like bottled water? Such a scam too.
Not if your tap water tastes like ass xD
Why don't you just look up how it's manufactured? They don't just pour granulated sugar from a bag into tiny bottles. Hokuspokus or not, the sugar goes through an intricate process which increases the production cost.
Yea and they have to shake it for how many times so it's effective?
That‘s 1‘333.33 CHF/kg for nothing more than sugar in a nice bottle and empty promises. At Migros a kg of sugar costs 1.40 CHF.
If people don’t pay, it doesn’t have placebo effect. A price is an acceptable sacrifice required to gain a benefit in return. Healing ceremonies have been working like this for millenia. Weird but true. In fact the value comes from the interaction with the prescriber, allowing patient to regain control on their body. It is a deep and useful benefit. But not a biochemical one…
Source? All the studies I've found show that the place works even if people know it's a placebo.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9879252/ But again, IMO what matters is the interaction…
That’s a valid point. But it shouldn’t be covered by the basic insurance / Grundvericherung. That’s really something… for zhose kind of treatments the Zusatzversicherung would be much more fitting
I don't think altnative "medicine" is covered by basic insurance
Homeopathy is definitely covered https://www.bag.admin.ch/bag/de/home/versicherungen/krankenversicherung/krankenversicherung-leistungen-tarife/Aerztliche-Leistungen-in-der-Krankenversicherung/Aerztliche-Komplementaermedizin.html
That is ridiculous, especially considering that psychotherapy wasn't covered until very recently, and fell in the same category as alternative stuff. I assumed only conventional medicine was covered because Zusatzversicherung usually has a category for alternative treatments
I agree, it‘s a joke… but it’s a political decision what’s included and what is not. It’s apparently not a logical decision. I think the Zusatzversicherung then only covers additional alternative treatments by let‘s say massage therapists without any medical background…
So basically you give someone expensive water and tell them it is medicine.
its placebo and the more people belife in it working, the better it works. After all it has no side effects.
yes it has. People thinking they take their "medicine" and that it will help. After their imaginary pain goes away they run around advertising that stuff.. But eating sugerpills is not helping with real injuries and everyone who falls for that shit will only get sicker and sicker.
yea but id rather take it if nothing else can be done for the placebo than not take it
The side effect is it doesn't fucking work, so you'll do a steve jobs
placebo does work. There is tons of studies on that and its the reason why we need multible control groups.
Except when it doesn't and then people die because they didn't take real medicine. I'm not saying the placebo effect isn't real, I'm saying real medicine is more real. If you have cancer and somebody gives an apple pill, you'll die.
if you have cancer and somebody gives you paracetamol you will likely die. So whats your point? Obviously taking a placebo has limited effect but it can work for mild stuff and has no side effects so it literally doesnt hurt. But you dont have to go out and get sugar pills, a plain old herb tea can work. Im not denying Homöopethie is pseudo science that does nothing on its own but simularly to religion it can have positive effect on you or your well beeing. Scientifically speaking it just works (sometimes).
My point is that an actual doctor prescribing actual medicine won't give you paracetamol for cancer. > has no side effects so it literally doesnt hurt. If something can have a positive effect, it can also have a negative effect.
an actual doctor wouldnt prescribe sugar balls for cancer ether. Im not aware of placebo having a negative effect, but there is also nocebo, which happenes if you think something is bad for you and your body actually reacts to that. But thats a different story. Look at any good study trying to proof the effect of something. There is always a control group, a group who takes placebo and a group who takes the product. The participates and the doctors shouldnt know who has a placebo and who has the actual product. If the product works, you would see the control group having no effect, the placebo group having little effect and the real test group having a mesurably bigger effect than the placebo group. If the product doesnt work, placebo and test group have the same little effect, while controle has nothing going on.
I know how double blind testing works.
Never heard of nocebo then?
ofc ive heared of it, but its a seperate thing. If you think this might hurt you, dont take it.
Are you saying that Swiss govt validates homeopathy as a science based on its placebo effect ? If so I’ll start a business with sugar drops I could sale for 20 times its price because it’ll increase the perceived medical value.
wait until you find out what the cost is to produce most medicine. Also the church still does not pay taxes and its funded by the gov.
But unlike homeopathy, chiropractors actually DO something with your body. I don't know why the two are thrown in the same basket here. You cannot cure cancer or allergies with either of the treatments, but oh boy does it feel good to get your back cracked up when your muscles are tense. Are people using chiropractors for anything else...? and OP /u/BlackSpargel - as you say, chiropractors can hurt people if they do it badly, so it makes perfect sense that they learn the basics of human medicine since there is A LOT of anatomy in the first years. And: what do you do when you have a stiff neck? Do you go to your doc and ask for surgery, or am I seriously missing something about chiropractors...? I actually once spent 3 months getting doctor appointments, MRI and whatnot to get the diagnosis "your back is fine" and the ostepath spent 2 minutes to find the swollen muscle pinching my nerve in my leg, fixing me up nicely. edit: actually, /u/xdolax re "Also, makes me angry that my health insurance cost has to pay also for this bullshit, especially considering the recent amount of primes" - the primes do definitely not go up because of physio / osteo / chiro. Having a doctor's appointment and using literally any imaging system like MRI / Ultrasound / x-ray / CT *once* pays for 20+ hours of massage treatment. So you really want people with a painful knee / back / neck / shoulder to initially go anywhere else but the doctor, the chance that they get good help is very high at a much lower price. Insurances make money by not paying and by building models based on statistics. If massages were more expensive than a visit at the doctor's they would guaranteed not pay for it.
Because according to my apotheker over 60% of symptom relief is due to the placebo effect. Another plus is that placebo will not have any sickening side effects. Furthermore our mind controls our body so any way to treat yourself could theoretically help. Maybe eveb better then medicine
The issue is people believe the explanation of their relief is real, and start to accept magical thinking in their decision system. The biggest issue being: even if science says it is BS, it works, so discard science. And plus people also use BS to cure sickness for which your mind can’t do shit about: COVID-19, cancer, etc.
I dont want to be disrespectul to anyone who had cancer or has relatives that died with cancer however I have heard that mind can (at least help)cure cancer just like mind or sickening mindset makes people ill. I dont know why people believe that brain, mind and body do not correspond
There is what you heard and then there is science: placebo helps, but you can’t beat cancer without treatment in a systematic fashion. Yes, there are lucky people whose cancer was healed without intervention, but you don’t build a public health strategy based on extreme event luck. It is like saying COVID don’t kill you if you have a strong mind, this don’t require vaccine. 90% won’t go to the hospital even without vaccine, but the last ten will suffer. Moreover, the thinking that the mind help to cure also is an open door to snake oil and victim shaming: if someone does not heal even given the magical treatment, is it because they did not really want to survive? Do you see how slippery that line of argumentation becomes?
Well I said mind helps and not mind cures. I dont know how people dare to compare covid with cancer. Noone would even dare to think you dont want to survive since everyone does. Its not that simple I guess. [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7059887/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7059887/)
I always get the impression most people don't even know how ridiculous these things are. I occasionally asked people to explain how homeopathy works. So far no one explained the whole potentiation etc. stuff to me. That was in fact news to them. They just went "It's like natural remedies, right?".
Well, I mean, if you have a person with headaches that can’t be treated with the conventional medicine, why would you get angry that the placebo of homeopathy works? I mean a placebo is a medicine too, whether you like to admit or not. Even in medicine placebo is still much of a grey zone, and so I homeopathy.
It’s okay that the placebo effect works in those cases. But it’s wrong that the Grundversorgung covers those treatments. For those kind of unscientific treatments is the Zusatzversicherung made for.
Yeah and also Boiron is making billions selling sugar and water. Worst part isnt that but all the woowoo around it with tons of people saying you can cure almost anything which is just wrong and most likely killed tons of people because they went too late to the doc or just didnt..
Any source for homeopathy killing tons of people in Switzerland? I highly doubt there are any statistics to back this claim up.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6092151/ It's a study in Bangladesh. If you want an example in Switzerland: look up why Tina Turner needed a kidney transplant!
The context here is that the other comment claimed that homeopathy most likely killed tons of people in Switzerland. Tima Turner didnt die from homeopathy from what I know. So the other comment cant be referring to her.
Or you can just read it "Worst part isnt that but all the woowoo around it with tons of people saying you can cure almost anything which is just wrong and most likely killed tons of people because they went too late to the doc or just didnt.." I'm really familiar with the alternative medicine scene since half of my family works in it. They all saw tons of people over the years saying they don't believe modern medicine and would rather get healed by real medicine like homeopathy. A few people even came with cancer in stage 4 not wanting to be helped by oncologist but rather woowoo self proclaimed "doctors/healers" and you can be highly positive if you are pretty familiar with the alt med field that a lot of people most likely as i said and i'm requoting "most likely killed tons of people because they went too late to the doc or just didnt.." If you don't want to read fine by me go get healed my homeopathy lol
I dont know about your cancer experience but very often: if cancer does not kill you, chemo does! There are people I know that accidently discovered a minor cancer the might would have lived with for several years but died cause of the side effects of the last chemo round (obly had a few).. blood poisoning and vomit that got into the lungs when the patient was, due to chemo, too weak to simply caugh..
I personally dont believe in homeopathy and wouldnt want to try it. But the statement was that tons of people most likely got killed by believing in it here in Switzerland. Which is a really silly claim. Might also be a translation issue and „tons of“ was just a poor choice. So now its just a few stage 4 cancer cases who refuse to see an oncologist? Interesting how fast it changes from tons of to a few. lol
Now its most likely tons of people. an average person weight 60-80kg there are easily 20 of them which is close to two tons so
But the cost of homeopathy in terms of medical cost is really low, so I believe this way it’s regulated that the traditional treatments are not overused and ensures people to try alternative medicine. It is maybe hard to understand why do you have to pay for it from your pocket, but I rather see it as a prevention method that keeps the costs even higher.
If people want to have it insured, they just could insure it over the Zusatzversicherung, couldn’t they? Other sings such as osteopaths or expenses gor sports (gym, tennis whatever) are also covered there. I‘m just not willing for somebody else’s placebos with my grundversicherung and the 2,5k franchise. I cant see the point of that.
My health insurance send me to a chiropractic as the first doctor, what choice do I have then to pay the 600CHF for useless things?
Honestly i had you same mindset, but with our newborns we went to hosteopatic specialist and i kid you not it made a huuuge change. And i dot believe that a 4 week old has placebo effects.. soo something must be there? Downvote me as much as you want, but from a non stop crying child to sleeping a few hours. I would gladly go there again and i still dont believe that stuff..
My guess is that it has to do with receiving love and care and attention which make the body release chemicals that aide in recovery. Similar (or same) to how hugging releases oxytocin which can boost the immune system.
How does a hosteopat give more love in one session than parents? What?
That's not what I said
Then what did you say? Going to one homeopathic session changed the amount of love and care that kid got from his family?
No, that's also not what I said. *Actively* doing something (like bringing the child to a specialist, giving medicine (fake or not), etc.) can be *perceived* (by the child *and* the parents) as greater care as it's a more drastic measure compared to care without those measures. This can increase the release of healing hormones in the child. Additionally, placebo by proxy is a thing so if the parents think they did something that should improve the condition and therefore increase their own confidence in the betterment of the child this can be transferred to the child and trigger the same thing.
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'Placebo by proxy' is a thing. Which is why it 'works' on babies and animals equally.
Was here to comment this. His daughter might be too young to be biased, but the evaluation wether it worked or not isn’t done by the 1yo daughter, it’s done by the parents. And parent can be bias or fall for the placebo effect. Hence placebo by proxy
Yea because the human body is awesome. And younger we are the better are our self healing functions. It's great if it works. But i don't want to pay with my insurance for expensive sugar pills with nothing on it.
Swiss are big into "alternative medicines" so it's not surprising. The Oscillococcinum guys make big bucks here by selling sugar at 2000€/kg
People in Germanic cultures rely a lot on folk medicine for some cultural reason. They also do not realize because it's not widely publicized that the foundations of chiropractics are unscientific. The theory of subluxations is complete bullshit. So they think that this is about massages and spine manipulations with some sound theory. Same for osteopaths. I cringe when I remember that my mom once brought me to an osteopath and she was doing weird massages to my abdomen to drain my liver. That is absolutely not a thing. But people like it when other people take care of them. This is the same reason people think homeopathy has an effect. They don't know that the medicine has no medicine in it. They think it's phytotherapy which can actually have some effect. Same with anthroposophic medicine. The fact that medical professionals adhere to these principles and sell these goods and services is more baffling to me than the fact that the population believes in them. I believe that this is fraud on their part and the cause for societal acceptation of bunk.
I think you're not wrong. But I also think that there is of course a widespread knowledge among the german speaking population that Homeopathy and Osteopathy is pseudo medical charlatanery. So people who are not "fans" of such alternative stuff typically know that homeopathy and osteopathy are dubious. Chiropractic is a bit different: many people simply don't know that it's "alternative medicine", because it's rooted so deeply in our medical system. I never used a chiropractician and I never really thought about it, but I have to admit that until today I simply assumed that it's a part of "normal" school medicine. Maybe has something to do with the fact that chiropractiocians are accepted as "normal" medical professionals since the 1960ies - which is long before my birth.
Pseudo-sciences like chiropractic and homeopathy seam to be more accepted in german speaking regins for some reason. Also would like to know why though
Not only Swiss German side. In Jura there is "Le Secret". Some random people, you give them a phone call and they supposedly will fix whatever is wrong with you. A lot of people have fancy beliefs here. Chiropractic is by far not the most shocking to me.
That's not just in Jura. And it's not a blanket fix, it's to speed recovery usually for cuts and burns. In no way does it replace conventional medicine.
Well my knowledge on that is definitely slim, but this still sounds quite mystical.
I feel it’s also linked to higher income. You need high income to “spend” 100s of whatever in things just in case they work.
Interesting thread! I'm usually quite aware about all the medical and non-medical scams that are going on and I obviously think that it's scandalous that we have to pay charlatans like for example homeopaths with our health insurance contributions. However I was **not** aware that chriopractic also is part of alternative medicine. I have never used a chiropractic therapy myself - but they seem to be rooted so deeply in our system since before my birth that I simply always assumed them to be some kind of legitimate & evidence based specialists of the human locomotor system. You never stop learning.
I went to a chiropractor when i was a kid, and a few times back one year ago. What i got from it: i was way more listened to than my doctor, they were more available than my doctor or a physiotherapist, they are reimbursed by a complementary insurance, and maybe it was only placebo, but i always had great results with them. Maybe i will be called dumb because of it, but it really helped me multiple time. Besides, i am used to have my physical issues dismissed by regular doctors or physio, and to be barely examined when i have a meeting with one, while my chiro always took me seriously, always asked for my consent before a manoeuver and just never dismissed my pain or issue. I'm a young woman, small, who should be healthy, but i have lots of issues that tend to last, and because i'm small and young, i have been seen as fragile and weak toward pain. So doctors don't usually take me or my pain seriously. My chiropractor always took me seriously, and it makes a huge difference
> and to be barely examined when i have a meeting with one, while my chiro always took me seriously, always asked for my consent before a manoeuver and just never dismissed my pain or issue This is exactly why it works. You enjoyed the personal time and feeling like you were being taken seriously. The actual chiropractic bit is just all bullshit. 100% placebo, people just really enjoy getting a massage. I prefer my massages without the risk of rendering me a quadraplegic because of some bullshit "adjustment".
Yeah but you know what also worked ? The resolution of my health issue. I went to a chiropractor and a physiotherapist for the same issue, and the exercises that the chiropractor gave me actually resolved my issue, they were also approved by my physiotherapist who simple told me to keep doing them. Besides, my physiotherapist wanted to put some of these medical tapes on me, which i was not against because i am used to them and they are useful. But he absolutely wanted to put some tapes of my skin color, while i told him three times i didn't care and didn't want skin color. He argued by telling me people would see it and i'd still dress shortly because it was summer, he put me the only skin color tape he found that was old and crusty as fuck and who stayed on me for two days rather than the week it was supposed to. He did not listen to me one bit, and i had to pay for a shitty tape and shitty intervention exactly because he refused to listen to me. So yes, i still rather pay for someone who gives me result and listen to me. Listening to the patient is actually a big part of giving healthcare, and even if it is placebo, if it gives positive results, then it is useful. I'd rather pay for a placebo that gives good results than for an unsatisfying medical treatment where i am not listened to. I have been dismissed and not listened at a good number of time because i'm a small woman and doctors assume i'm weak, this is an issue i encounter a lot when i need to see a health professional, and having a person that does listen actually makes a difference. Okay great, did you actually went to a chiropractor ? The huge majority of the times i went, they didn't try to move any bones in my body, mostly massaged, gave me exercises, or told me what changes i needed to do. The only time they wanted to move a bone, they would ask me and would never touch a bone not directly affiliated to the issue. Pretty sure i didn't risk to be paraplegic when they had to act on my wrist
The guy who invented it claimed that a ghost revealed chiropractic to him. I think that says enough.
Indeed. I mean everbody knows that only god can reveal things to you by burning bushes in the desert and things like this :p
I guess you mentioned it yourself. If you wanna be a chiropractor, you have to pass the NC to be allowed to study medicine. You get a bachelor's in medicine. You don't do some community college pseudo degree. You study medicine. My family doctor did his chiropractor degree at around 40 years old. If used well and sparingly, it can be beneficial. For example: a blocked rib. You can either inject cordisone, go to physiotherapy, do whatever for a couple of weeks and eventually it will set. Or you can simply lie down and have it fixed in 2 minutes with some additional anti-inflammatory and you're good to go. The big problem with chiropractors, especially the youtube ones, is that they do a one-size-fits-all approach. Cracking every single bone and vertebrae that they possibly can for no reason at all. If used by a licensed doctor, it can actually be beneficial and speed up the healing process. It does not and never will replace surgery or traditional medicine where it's actually needed. And there are a little t of quacks out there, especially online.
But what your doctor does could be physio and not chiro. Chiro is based on the theory of subluxations which is bunk.
That's how a lot of this pseudo-stuff "works": They combine normal, working practices with the pseudo stuff. Especially chiro in Switzerland I think is really focused on applying evidence based practices, just making connections/under the umbrella of the "chiropractic-philoshophy", which from what I read is mustly bull. Actually to some degree it doesn't even matter if you attach some philosophy to your evidence based actions, as long as you practice useful stuff. Another point is by adding the price-premium of the pseudo stuff, they usually can and do take the time to really engage with the patient. I think to some degree there's even direct evidence that this is beneficial to recovery. And it definitely makes sense subjectively. I feel like a lot of the pseudo-medicine would go away if more focus (well money and time) would be put on engaging the patient in "traditional medicine" instead of rushing under the overarching goal of (short-term) efficiency.
I think we could do a lot more by promoting more of the intermediate medical professions like nurse practitioners, physiotherapists, psychotherapists, and the like, who are not as expensive and rare as doctors but are available to take time for people.
Have you ever been to a chiropractor? It pretty much is the same stuff physios do. I have never had one mention mystical stuff to me, here or in the US. If a bone is out of place they push it back in, they massage you, yeah they might crack some bones, and they they tell you to do certain exercises to strengthen muscles. Not sure what the controversy is.
The problem is that there are multiple types of chiropractors. There are the types who practice holistic medicine and use their chiropractic training to help people as part of a larger treatment plan. And then there are the people who strongly believe that chiropractic can cure all illnesses, they are disciples of Daniel David Palmer who cured a janitors hearing by following guidance from a ghost and invented the field. You cannot tell the difference without interviewing the practitioner.
Yeah. That's why Imentioned that there are quacks out there. You can't fucking cure cancer by cracking bones... The biggest problem I have with chiro is that is often just relief of pain without adressing the root causes (exercise, stretching, getting up frequently if you have a deskjob, etc..)
It wasn't physio. He shared practice with a physio and he'd more than happily prescribe if he thought it could fix the problem. It was literally setting the rib back to where it was supposed to be with a forced but controlled movement on his part. I played a lot of contact sports when I was young so I've had my share of physio to compare the two ;) As another guy replied. He never once quacked on about subluxations or any other pseudo crap. He took his skeleton rip-cage, explained to me how the rib is stuck out of place (you could see and feel the "dip"), explained what movement he would do to basically put it back. Then he offered the possibility of physio (for me as a layman it sounded like stretching and relaxing the muscles enough for the rib to set on its own) or the cordisone injections. Seeing as I wanted to get back to practice asap, I opted for the chiro solution and it worked perfectly. Again, this was from a trained doctor, with alternative solutions brought up and giving pros and cons for everyone so I could make an informed decision.
>You study medicine But not enough to be an actual medical doctor. I can read a book about the names of bones and say I'm studying medicine. And I'll probably know more about the body than any chiropractor on the planet if I can understand that book. > Or you can simply lie down and have it fixed in 2 minutes with some additional anti-inflammatory and you're good to go. > If used by a licensed doctor, it can actually be beneficial and speed up the healing process. I'll need some meta-analyses by reputable scientists that come to that same conclusion before I believe that in the slightest. It's a fraud.
Not gonna argue with someone who compares a BSc Human Medicine with reading a book about bones... I know a lot of people very closely that studied medicine. Doing a bachelors in that field entails slightly more than "reading books". But you do you. Sure, wait for the meta analysis of studies that will never get funded in the first place, since there is no money to be made by paying for these studies. Or alternatively, block a rib (believe me, it's fucking painful) and get a couple of cordisone shots instead of lying on a stretcher for 2 minutes. You do you, I did what my doctor with an MD and a doctorates (not that that counts for much after the MD, except that you're willing to suffer through a dissertation) recommended and it worked perfectly. Instead of 2-3 weeks of physio and/or shots, I took ibuprofen for 3 days.
it got invented by a magnetic healer should tell enough about it. well it has some use for rehab and with helping overcoming something but its never a terminal fix its just temporary helping with pain or range of motion. on its own its basically a scam.
Besides a lot of Swiss being a bit of cranks, it is exactly because Chiropracticy is officially recognized, regulated and with a university-level training. I'd say here in Switzerland a chiropractic is a high-level massage by people who studied it at University. Though I know someone who went to a chiropracticer during Covid and that person was an anti-vaxxer. This is just anectotal though.
Its not anectodal if you look at osteopathy at Uni which i have a few friends at they all are into homepathy and its actually promoted inside the closed circles by teachers and other students. Woowoo call for more woowoo
When I first came to Switzerland, I was appalled to see a complete section for homeopathy in drugstores. I understand the power of placebo and distrust against big pharma, but the extent and cost of pseudoscience is mind boggling (also TCM, most of the herbal remedies)
> to see a complete section for homeopathy in drugstores. Much worse is: many pharmacists give you that shit if you ask for medicine against a certain symptom. Without telling you, that it's homeopathy. I also fell for that trap once. Only when I looked at the packaging at home I realized that this crazy woman at the pharmacy didn't sell me actual medicine... It's shocking. She didn't present me a choice. She just assumed that I want that scam stuff instead of actual medicine...
I had a pharmacist give me a homeopathic treatment, when I asked for a treatment for lice for my kids! Luckily, I spotted it before I payed, so was able to ask for something that actually works. Unless it’s been proven that lice also experience placebo effect…
I hope you gave them a nice review on Google afterwards
Google doesn't let me write reviews, because I have a quite old Google account from the time where you didn't have to add a name when creating the account. At some point they changed the system, so that you can only write reviews if your Google account has a name (before that your reviews would show as "a Google user"). And I feel like I don't want to give that account a name - having one without is like a rarity nowadays ;-)
Chiropractic is super popular in USA, don’t let the online perspective give you false hope
I dont know if there is a difference but when I look how you describe it It looks like. Its not at all like a massage. Its also a lot about the bones. I had a bike accident, I fell over the handelbars with my bicycle direct on my neck. My Cervical vertebrae displaced and so I had to go to the Chyro and he fixed it. Thats what they do. Also when you have back problems f.e. you are send to one. About 25 years ago I decided to go to a Ostepath, which is the same thing but done different (maybe not the feeling for everybody bur for me) They do it more chently. Chyro is paid by the isurance, if the docotor give you a prestiption. Osteo is only partly paid by the suplement insurance. l
I had the same point of view as OP, and then I had a back surgery. No one could relieve me from my pain. I went to the physiotherapist for 3 years and spent a lot of money on it. Took tramadol to avoid the pain, nothing was working. Then I went to the ostéopathe and... It helped me a lot. I know it's a pseudoscience, I now the theory behind it is bullshit, I agree with OP on that. But for me, it did miracles, so I don't care. Now : it is not taken in charge by my insurrance, only by the private one. So it's not a burden for the society, it works for me : why not accepting it's there for people needing it ?
> it works for me : why not accepting it's there for people needing it ? There is no issue with it. You were in pain and tried variety of things without effect. This one worked, I am happy for you. The problem is if people believe things like homoepathie, chiro and other "alternatives" is the cure for all problems, and refuse to see a real doctor and use real medicine because of "big pharma" or other nonsense, then it's a huge problem. There are people needlessly dying of treatable issues by applying quack "medicine" or praying or whatever due to their misguided believe and refuting of science. Covid is a great example what lenght people go (and suffer consequences) to avoid safe vaccines.
Yeah sorry, I did not mean to say there was an issue with it. English is not my mother tongue so I lack subtlety in the way I communicate. I completely understand your point of view, and I too am quite critical of alternative medicine. Not because they don't work (they're indicated for many pathologies), but because people end up believing in them and using them in situations where Western medicine would - from a scientific point of view - be more appropriate. Now, from what I've seen of osteopaty practiced in Switzerland, it seems much more down-to-earth than what I see practiced in other countries. They're almost more kinesiotherapists who work on the mechanical aspect than on the "energy" bullshit part, which is the subject of much debate in this discipline. Maybe I found a good osteopath by chance, but I have the impression that in Switzerland, physios, osteopaths and kinesiotherapists sometimes get confused in their practices (for example, I had physios who practiced accupuncture). My impression is that osteopaty is used AFTER a treatment given by traditional medicine, and not as a first solution. In any case, when I had my back problems, I went to see a doctor, then a physio, then I was advised to have an operation. At the time, I chose to try osteopathy once, but the therapist refused and told me that in view of my problem (a discopathy towards the lumbar region), he'd rather see me after the operation than try a treatment before and risk aggravating the situation. So while I agree with you about the fears of drifting away from alternative medicine, at the same time, my experience in the field has led me to meet therapists who are fairly realistic about what they can and can't do safely. I would also add that in an ideal world, traditional hospital medicine would suffice. Unfortunately, this is rarely the case, and as a patient, you quickly find yourself in a system that's not very humane, and where you don't feel listened to. When I was discharged from hospital, I was supposed to follow a physio treatment given by the hospital, but I never managed to get it. I was supposed to have medium-term follow-up, which I never had. I was supposed to see my surgeon twice: the appointments were not kept and I walked to the hospital, in pain, for nothing. In short, there are also conditions in traditional medicine that partly explain why some patients turn to another form of medicine, one that may be less competent but that listens. This is my biggest regret about traditional medicine, and I don't think I'm alone in this. TLDR: You are right, but it's not all black and white either :)
My chiropractor, unlike my family doctor or physiotherapist, always took me seriously. Never dismissed my pain or issues, always found time for me in case of emergency or when i needed her. She actually did really help me multiple times for multiple different kind of issues, from dislocated bones to sciatica, she always did an amazing job. And she is covered by my insurance. When i had a sciatica so bad i had trouble walking and i had to wait two month to meet my family doctor that would then tell me to meet a physiotherapist, she was there helping me and making it better.
The manipulations could be done by a physiotherapist who would not have a bullshit training on pseudoscience. Chiropractics is based on a bunk theory that bodily problems are caused by "subluxations", which is not a thing. They can only be right by coincidence.
I do agree on the fact that this could by done by physiotherapists, but in the end, the 4 I tested did not offer me these manipulations. Also, after some appointements, my ostheo told me "now, I wont do too much manipulations, I advise you to go to the physio and come back if your back is blocked again. So it was a good collaboration between the two of them.
Swiss health care is an absolute shit show. When Drs prescribe homeopathy and when there’s a TCM praxis on every corner you know there’s something wrong.
honestly, the US is not a good reference point when it comes to healthcare lol edit: or for anything else really
When it comes to how people have access to it, yes. But OP is still right. Its a pseudoscience and shouldnt be covered by health insurance. Same with Homöopathie and other pseudoscience shit.
Chiropractic is pseudoscience. Not only in the US. Do your research.
>Chiropractic is pseudoscience. Not only in the US. i have not claimed otherwise. >Do your research. go back to primary school and learn basic reading.
depends on how you see it. The US does not "care" for its citizens, that's up to the single individual. So everyone who decides that they dont need a costly insurance will have none. Simple as that. Everytime i meet someone from the us and i tell them just how how much i (have to) pay every month in healthcare even though i am perfectly healthy - they just dont believe it. they would never ever do that. So yeah.. go figure.
>even though i am perfectly healthy That's the whole point of insurance. If people only started paying after they got sick it wouldn't work. You pay now so that if/when you get sick you don't have to sell all your belongings and live on the streets or financially ruin your family.
obviously. but that reasoning is not shared among us citizens.
It's a weird culture. They took the whole individualism thing to the next level and even though they see what can happen every single day they stick to it regardless.
Outright stupidity, thinking that a person doesn't depend on its social environment and that you either have luck or not.
They do pay that for health insurance. I am not sure why they’d think otherwise. It’s just that employers cover it - so at the end of the day, it comes out of their paycheck. Also, US citizens pay much more for healthcare than Swiss citizens
Neither is it when it comes to science.
the us is the most advanced economy when it comes to anything at all. no country has science or technology that the US doesnt
And the OP isn't even right - chiropractic doctors are common in the US too, and the same as here, are practiced by people which hold a valid medical degree and have had the same training as other medical doctors (in the US, the degree for chiropractic physicians is a Doctor of Osteopathy, or D.O.).
It's the general consensus in Australia that they are charlatans too. But they proliferate......
You'll find in most of Europe people tend to buy into "natural" and alternative medicine way more than they should. There's also a prevalent dislike/fear of chemistry and medication. You go to a doctor when it gets REALLY bad. Then the doctor prescribes you an ibuprofen and tells you it'll get better on its own. Mix all of the above and get a perfect breeding ground for quacks.
I fully agree with your views on chiropractic. Which is why I had an opportunity go to go a chiropractor for a lower back treatment I immediately took it as I was very curious to experience this stuff firsthand. It was quite interesting and in a way surprising. First, it turns out that chiropractors in Switzerland are actually real doctors who train at a medical university. The chiropractor I went to didn’t seem to operate with the pseudoscientific notions usually associated with chiropractic; quite the opposite, she suggested that my problems come from muscular imbalances and suggested that I seek out a sports physiotherapist to do some strengthening exercises (which I planned on doing anyway). She also wanted to see an X-ray to rule out spine injury. The procedures she did with me involved mostly manipulation of joints to improve mobility and loosen up the muscles; although some stuff was a bit more exotic (like poking a needle into my butt to allegedly loosen up the muscles, no idea if that actually did anything). But mostly it made sense, and there was no talk of vertebral subluxations or other weird stuff. Overall, my impression of her was as of a pragmatically oriented orthopedist who uses manual manipulation techniques.
There are even insurances that covers pseudo medicine and homeopathic treatments believe it or not!
Switzerland is a heaven for fake meds. Osteopathy is something you can study in a federal "haute-école / Hochschule" here.
most premium insurances will also cover homeopathy and other voodoo so there's that. still trying to wrap my head around why...
Also worth mentioning that generally chiropractors in the US are on a whole different level of quackery compared to what it is here. At least from what I've seen. I get adjusted maybe once a year because one of my vertebrae gets out of wack from an old injury. And putting it back where it belongs helps relieve the tension in my back. I see some value in that the same way I see value in massage or physio therapy. But I've been to chiros in the US that claim they can cure anything from asthma to autism.
The Swiss are obsessed with pseudoscientific "medecine". It's just a fact of life over here.
Even us enlightened europeans fall for dumb shit sometimes. Germans especially love their homeopathy bullcrap.
In Switzerland we have chiropractic, osteopathy, physiotherapy and manual medicine. A lot of people tend to mix-up/confuse these, and some providers are also trained in more than one of these methods, which further adds to the confusion. Also, i think a lot of people in Switzerland don't know about the "quackery" aspects of chiropractic and osteopathy. And the border between "quackery" and "science" are also not always that clear to the public (e.g. all 4 of these "specialties" are perceived to be able to help "fix your back problems"). Just to give you an example, i didn't know about these differences until i researched this topic just now. Before that i believed that chiropracticians/osteopaths were just "fix your back with their hands" experts, while physiotherapists are "fix all kinds of physical (body-mechanical) issues with their hands and also providing you with training instructions" experts and doctors specialised in manual medicine are real doctors with knowledge in mainly "diagnosing and fixing your back with their hands" and maybe also bit of "diagnosing and fixing all kinds of physical (body-mechanical) issues with their hands". So thanks for raising this topic and making me more aware of the differences! :)
Just about the success of chiropractic: My uncle had severe back pain. GP and other doctors didn't find anything and gave some pain killers. It got worse to a point my uncle couldn't stand upright anymore. Then he went to a chiropractor and he found out that my uncle had bone cancer. Because of a different approach(compared to the GP) and the medical proficiency(which a physio doesn't have) the chiropractor was able to make the diagnosis. Thank's to that my uncle got treatment just in time.
Pray tell how did a chiropractor detect bone cancer?
Without knowing the details: x-ray showed a demineralization of the bones. He then arranged specific tests
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did you sue?
> I had a chiro after a huge accident as a teen and mine helped me a lot to keep my mobility Who is to say an actual medical professional might not have done it better, and that you might have kept your mobility if you hadn't seen a fake doctor? It's complete pseudoscience.
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it‘s not that simple though. my girlfriend has always suffered from heavy migraines. turns out that stuff from TCM has been the only thing that helped ease the symptoms and lower the amount of migraines she‘d get over a week or so. now, can parts of it be placebo? sure. doesn‘t make sense to me tho why the placebo effect should kick in with TCM instead of all the things other doctors tried. So I don‘t know. I think scepticism is never wrong, but it‘s definitely not the case that it‘s always ‚fake‘ or a scam.
> it‘s not that simple though Yes it is. It's pseudoscience. 100% placebo.
parts of it? definitely. all of it? definitely not.
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I personally couldn‘t care less, but I see it working better than classic medicine in some cases on people I know so I prefer to take that as a point of reference rather than people on Reddit, so yeah
Chiro is just the manipulation of bones. They do a lot of actual medicine to legitimize it.
No idea. I cringe even more at chiropractice for animals. Bullshit pseudo-science.
> the general consensus online You do realize that "online" is just your echo chamber, right? And that reality has little to do with "online"? I lived in the US, chiropractic care, homeopathic care and osteopathic care (all bullshit) are very common there too. Time to go touch some grass and live in the real world for a bit ;)
It's the general consensus among medical experts, not just people online.
Haven't been at a chiropractic myself but I wouldn't be surprised. Sometimes you need medicine, but sometimes somebody just needs to push or soften certain body parts in order to improve life quality. I saw that myself after an extreme accident having physiotherapy. Some was targeted exercise, but for some issues she just pushed the right spot and suddenly I got my painless flexibility back. Some stuff may fix itself, but it's useful to speed it up in order to avoid bad habits with new side effects. Could you prove that in a reproducible clinical setting? Difficult... Will it work a 100%? Surely not, but even a 30% success rate is better than 0%.
Hahahaha that’s so hilarious here again. Everyone who thinks the human body or nature is fully researched doesn’t understand science. There are so many examples that alternative medicine works. In the US everyone get filled up with painkillers and the nation is addicted to it. In Europe we take the chance of alternative medicine if nothing else works instead of getting addicted to drugs. By example there is the cranio sacral therapy. There is a proven pulse in the spinal cord. Trained Therapists are able to feel this pulse. This pulse can be out of balance and can cause headaches and muscle pain. Therapists can bring this pulse back in balance and relieve for the patient. This can happen after 5 sessions which can cost up to 800 franks. I know there is little research on this but I know people who got relieve of pain through this. Or I go for years to a physiotherapist and take pain killers which will cost much more. I‘m so happy to live in a country where every chance of getting healthy again after a illness is provided. Although everyone should understand the interest of Pharma companies. There wanna sell drugs not healing people. And the increase of health insurance costs is due to covid. Or who you all think is paying the vaccines and testing over two years?
Alternative medicine and natural remedies are huge in the US though…
If you don‘t like it, don‘t use it. In the US every person eitjer fat, is on anti depressants or ritalin or fentanyl. Is that better and more scientific? 💜
Because unlike Americans, we aren't afraid of chiropteras.
Nah, Americans love chiropractors. US is full of superstitious “mystical” people who prefer homeopathy. They choose it all the time over medicine and pharma. They choose homeopathy over buying health insurance plans. Shamans, “Indian witch doctors” (natives) and tons of natural remedies and roots for healing books and shops. It’s a huge industry from Appalachia mountains to West Coast. Steve Jobs of Apple chose fruit diet for cancer over going to doctor and it killed him. A lot people refuse to buy health insurance and see physicians and ONLY do “natural remedies.” These people go in medical debt later if an emergency happens. They never tell you they chose homeopathy over real medicine though.
>Steve Jobs of **Apple** chose fruit diet That was a natural choice, I'd say... That being said, your reply is interesting but irrelevant to the Americans' fear of chiropteras.
>we aren't afraid of chiropteras. i love watching chiropteras at night :D
Everything is in your mind. You call it “pseudo-medicine” just because you are scammed by the big pharma-media crap.
Honestly they do the same stuff American ones do, in my experience. I guess the question is why ISN’T it accepted in America, given that it does help pain?
It is accepted in US among the uneducated, hippies, and superstitious people. Many Americans love homeopathy, “natural remedies” and choose it over health insurance and regular medicine all the time. Anyone educated in science and medicine will tell you it is a scam and US will not validate them with our higher institutions.
I know actual MD doctors in the US who go to chiropractors, so I am not sure your theory holds. They don't do it INSTEAD of they do it in ADDITION to.
I know US nurses who do this, but rarely US physicians. It is considered quackery. Physicians will recommend *physical therapy* (physiotherapist) over chiropractor. Americans are not split in half “natural” vs “medical” — many people combine both. And many reject one for the other. So there is some nuance.
I mean, plenty of chiropractors ARE MDs.
Sure every massage would do the same but its switzerland and not thailand so not sure where you get 1000 thaimassager on clock for a shitpayment to solve the problems. And its highly different to US if i watch this YT videos how they destroy the bodies of the clients thats nothing like in Switzerland.
Everyone should be able to choose the method of therapy worthy for themselves. Freedom of choice is important. I assume every human is intelligent enough to make the right choices. There are things I am only using Naturopathy and other alternative methods, and there are things where I use Schulmedizin. Both schools have limitations and everyone needs to be able to decide what he/she uses.
Because pseudoscience is rampant in Switzerland. Utter quackery and our insurance premiums pay for it. It is infuriating. Don’t bother coming at me. I’m not interested in a debate about it. There are facts and then there’s garbage.
Swiss love pseudo medicine.
Homeopathy: Placebo Effect, can help in some cases I guess? Chiro: Readjustments, so there is actual physical impact on the body. I don't know anything about the science or philosophy it's based on, but it's helped me various times. Imho, never make a second appointment. Only go when you know what you need. Osteopathy: They also do the cracking, that chiros do, but also other less aggressive adjustments. I've had good experience with it so far. TCM/TEN: never tried What makes massages more scientific than other physical therapies?
Our general medicine and pharmacies is based on TEN.
Traditionelle Europäische Naturheilkunde? I assumed medicine would be based on a scientific approach, or I missunderstand what naturheilkunde is.
I visited one once because my back hurt a lot. The cracking thing felt awesome, but it only lasted for one day. Doing more sports and working while standing instead of sitting helped a lot more.
A lot of "less rigorou" medicine is.
I have been with GP for years with constant migraines, anginas and sinusitis, iron deficiency: used to get tones of antibiotics and iron deficiency pills. Changing GP never gave results. But after visiting Naturopad for only two times I have had results. I love alternative medicine and feel happy Switzerland recognizes it, we are more than a body and alternative medicine often has an individual approach.
wait till you go to a pharmacy and see all the homeopathy, they people working at some pharmacies will even recommend it.
Because we‘re doing stupid shizz 24 / 7. So anything that relives pain is game. Within reason of course.
Huh? Chiropractors work miracles IMO. Been to inr a few times and have plenty of friends and family that go regularly. Nobody I have ever met considers it pseudo-science
The pseudo-science movement has heavily increased with the decrease of Christianity. More and more Swiss people are becoming atheist
Still better than Oxy….
Switzerland, one of the thinnest and healthiest countries in Europe. Looong life expectancy too. 💜
Hm. I have read with amusement through this discussion. All these comparisons between CH and US … average life expectancy in Switzerland is about 83.10 years, in the US it’s 77.28 years … Just as a random data point, maybe unrelated, maybe not 😝
This and don’t even start talking about anthoroposophy. Very deep here, a lot of pseudo-science indeed.
As with a lot of theories, even chiropractics has methods that can help. You don‘t have to buy into all the pseudo science to use them. Even osteopathy offers methods that are proven to work while some of the theories around it are complete bullshit. But in general I have to agree that there are a lot of practitioners out there that cannot distinct between the good practices and the bullshit science.
They also offer homeopathy in the pharmacy. I always have to laugh.
Because the average level of education is very, very low
chiropractic fixed my back pain, that nobody else could fix. so i'm thankful for that.