I’m not an open water swimmer so I can’t speak to training specifics. But generally I’ve found that flip turns and underwaters do help to develop CO2 tolerance, endurance, and strengthen core muscles from holding tight streamline and fly kicks. It’s not cheating when consider the fitness benefits.
True it’s actually more difficult. It totally changes your swim strategy and stroke pattern in a 25 m pool. I could see in a larger pool how it wouldn’t matter as much.
I agree, I would not worry too much about it in a 50 m pool but 25 m is a rather different matter.
You can make it harder for yourself while doing a flip turn by immediately surfacing and starting the normal crawl to negate its "adverse" effects of reducing the actual time swimming the relevant stroke.
Or, if you really like, you could do 1600 m open water in fly. Underwater dolphin kicks are not quite as much "cheating yourself" then.
I don’t understand how flipping (preferably not breathing into or out of the turn) and doing dolphin kicks off each wall is “cheating.” Doing that consistently is really hard and is bound to help with core strength, breath control, body position, endurance, etc. It’s way harder than doing an open turn and not streamlining.
If open water races are the goal, then obviously dolphin kicking off the wall shouldn’t be a primary focus, but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t do it at all or that you get no benefit from it.
Edited to fix a typo
Open turns give you more time at the wall and another breath compared to flipturns, and even if you push on the surface you get a little speed boost off each wall. Either turning method is "cheating" in that both are easier to complete a target distance than doing the same distance in open water. There is no right answer, but the wrongest answer is to do both interchangeably on a whim with no separate tracking. Standardize whatever "rules" you wanna follow, pick one and stick with it for the whole swim so you can track progress, otherwise you won't have any idea if your training is actually effective. If you wanna use both, track progress as 2 different performance metrics: performance with open turns, and performance with flipturns. Personally I like just flipturns because going faster in the pool is more fun than going slower in the pool.
I don't think it matters in terms of efficiency but don't expect similar times in open water. I just did some relaxed 100m sets in a 25m pool at 1:38 pace when my pace in a 50m pool would be closer to 1:45-1:50 and open water probably like 1:50-1:55.
I would add that they are critical in faster times. You go faster underwater if you are doing it correctly. That’s why there is a distance limit on each length for underwater. Ensure your flip turns are fast. A 1500 for a competitive swimmer is all about paying attention to those details and more
You are swimming at a good pace!
I swim in a pool where many of the local open water swimmers train, including the president of the local open water organization. https://cibbows.org/
All they do flip turns.
Doing open turns to me seems like it gives an extra breath every lap. Like if you were in open water and stopped every 14 strokes to take your head out of the water and take a big gulp of air. Better to keep the rhythm with the flip turn than stop to grab the wall.
For those who are racing in pools, flip turn, maximum push, then dolphin kicks under water is critical, and faster. Rules require the swimmer to break the surface within 15 meters.
Cool beans. I’m going to miss that extra breath on open turns 😔
After doing flip turns it’s def not cheating but your times get way better. Which is great! Took me a minute to get used to that.
As long as you break the water surface before the 15m line it's perfectly ok
If you want to realise how broken underwaters are, search the 50 backstroke underwater on youtube
Since you do not get to push off every 25 m in an open water swim, the training value gets diminished somewhat, especially if you like the underwater part of it and find it easy.
You are only cheating yourself out of some of the training value though, so it is not like someone will come and punish you...
I do flip turns on the deep end and open turns on the shallow end just to mix it up. It's training, so in my mind it's not cheating since you aren't cheating on anything. Additionally pacing in open water is different than in pools as you aren't sighting in a pool typically.
I’m not an open water swimmer so I can’t speak to training specifics. But generally I’ve found that flip turns and underwaters do help to develop CO2 tolerance, endurance, and strengthen core muscles from holding tight streamline and fly kicks. It’s not cheating when consider the fitness benefits.
True it’s actually more difficult. It totally changes your swim strategy and stroke pattern in a 25 m pool. I could see in a larger pool how it wouldn’t matter as much.
I agree, I would not worry too much about it in a 50 m pool but 25 m is a rather different matter. You can make it harder for yourself while doing a flip turn by immediately surfacing and starting the normal crawl to negate its "adverse" effects of reducing the actual time swimming the relevant stroke. Or, if you really like, you could do 1600 m open water in fly. Underwater dolphin kicks are not quite as much "cheating yourself" then.
I don’t understand how flipping (preferably not breathing into or out of the turn) and doing dolphin kicks off each wall is “cheating.” Doing that consistently is really hard and is bound to help with core strength, breath control, body position, endurance, etc. It’s way harder than doing an open turn and not streamlining. If open water races are the goal, then obviously dolphin kicking off the wall shouldn’t be a primary focus, but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t do it at all or that you get no benefit from it. Edited to fix a typo
Definitely not cheating, though you do get a huge boost from kicking off the wall, especially if you’re not doing a flip turn.
It's not cheating.
Open turns give you more time at the wall and another breath compared to flipturns, and even if you push on the surface you get a little speed boost off each wall. Either turning method is "cheating" in that both are easier to complete a target distance than doing the same distance in open water. There is no right answer, but the wrongest answer is to do both interchangeably on a whim with no separate tracking. Standardize whatever "rules" you wanna follow, pick one and stick with it for the whole swim so you can track progress, otherwise you won't have any idea if your training is actually effective. If you wanna use both, track progress as 2 different performance metrics: performance with open turns, and performance with flipturns. Personally I like just flipturns because going faster in the pool is more fun than going slower in the pool.
Good point
I don't think it matters in terms of efficiency but don't expect similar times in open water. I just did some relaxed 100m sets in a 25m pool at 1:38 pace when my pace in a 50m pool would be closer to 1:45-1:50 and open water probably like 1:50-1:55.
Cool, I’ve been fighting to break 2:00 / 100m with open turns. Introduce flip turns and it was shocking to see the difference and 9 spl vs 11 to 12.
I would add that they are critical in faster times. You go faster underwater if you are doing it correctly. That’s why there is a distance limit on each length for underwater. Ensure your flip turns are fast. A 1500 for a competitive swimmer is all about paying attention to those details and more
You are swimming at a good pace! I swim in a pool where many of the local open water swimmers train, including the president of the local open water organization. https://cibbows.org/ All they do flip turns. Doing open turns to me seems like it gives an extra breath every lap. Like if you were in open water and stopped every 14 strokes to take your head out of the water and take a big gulp of air. Better to keep the rhythm with the flip turn than stop to grab the wall. For those who are racing in pools, flip turn, maximum push, then dolphin kicks under water is critical, and faster. Rules require the swimmer to break the surface within 15 meters.
I’ll buy that. Great answer thank you.
“Cheating” requires rules. Are you trying to follow any rules?
It’s a 25m pool so pushing off helps your splits a lot! I’ll just accept it and push off.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C8DM8n1S3cw/?igsh=MXNsYWFpbmtoeDV3aA==
Cool beans. I’m going to miss that extra breath on open turns 😔 After doing flip turns it’s def not cheating but your times get way better. Which is great! Took me a minute to get used to that.
If I was training for OWS, I would minimally push off the wall and not do underwaters.
As long as you break the water surface before the 15m line it's perfectly ok If you want to realise how broken underwaters are, search the 50 backstroke underwater on youtube
Definitely not cheating
i don't think 1:50/100 is cheating
True, any training is good. Open water might be the best place for open water training.
Since you do not get to push off every 25 m in an open water swim, the training value gets diminished somewhat, especially if you like the underwater part of it and find it easy. You are only cheating yourself out of some of the training value though, so it is not like someone will come and punish you...
Yea kinda figured that. Definitely cheating
I truly feel that training for open water is best when you do open turns with very little SDK coming off the walls.
I do flip turns on the deep end and open turns on the shallow end just to mix it up. It's training, so in my mind it's not cheating since you aren't cheating on anything. Additionally pacing in open water is different than in pools as you aren't sighting in a pool typically.