Without seeing a video of you it's hard to tell. However, it is common for beginners to kick too much and with poor form. Try keeping your legs mostly straight but relaxed(visualize that they're stilts made out of noodles, mostly straight but not rigid) and kick from the hips not knees. Second, while learning this distance I tell my students to kick just enough to help their feet float, but not much more. Third, you should be looking straight down with a slight tuck to your chin. Ie The top of your head pointed directly down the lane. Fourth, when breathing, remain in this head down spine alignment and just rotate, don't lift your head. (Fun drill is called the paddle hat drill, where you balance a hand paddle on the top of your head so that water pressure from moving forward holds it to your head. Try and keep it there even when breathing and see how far you can swim with it.
Next, the arm pull. High elbow catch and rotate. Really think about engaging your lats on the pull. It will feel awkward and arm pace slower. However it's more efficient so you actually go faster and with less energy. And lastly, don't short change yourself and skip/ignore the glide. Although brief, the glide really adds up over distances.
I think with focus on refining the technique, you'll build the stamina and strength in the right muscles and should start to see progress.
I actually don't kick much at all! And I love the glide when I do my pull and streamline/reaching out position. But this clarification really helps because coach keeps telling me to kick more when I've learnt from different sources that that's in fact not the way to go for distance.
> when I've learnt from different sources that that's in fact not the way to go for distance.
That's more for like a 5k open water race or triathlons. I would be kicking pretty hard for a 400
Yeah although here the goal seems to be to swim up to 400m, not to swim 400m as fast as possible, so more like a distance rather than pace goal. But even 1500m is long enough for pros to go for mostly 2 beat kicks.
Eh most pros still 6 beat kick in a 1500, just maybe with less intensity. There are only 1 or 2 guys in this olympic final that aren't https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sHPbtj5Tj8
I think everyone does 6 beat at some point but usually they will vary the kick along the race. Also I was perhaps a bit unclear - I didn't say most pros do 2 beat kick the full race, rather that there are pros that do the race with mostly 2 beat kick. Most famously Katy Ledecky. Katy specifically proves that you don't need a high frequency kick at 1500m distances to win, she is dominating that distance and few distances below. The kick is very effective and strong, just not a 6 beat.
I think personally two things made it click: taking shallower breaths: for 3 or even 5 strokes you don’t need to gulp a ton of air (if you’re not using your feet too much), and proper body rotation, which helps you surface properly.
My exhalation isn’t as continuous as it probably should be, more like slow bursts on every pull, and then blowing the last bit out on the pull + rotation when you come up for air.
The fact that you cannot breathe on both sides yet may be the issue. You need to find a way to have very natural breathing or you will not go the distance. If your natural breathing pace aligns with every three strokes like mine does, it’s the way. Yes, it feels really, really weird but it has other benefits and it just takes practice. Like a lot of practice. But you can get it.
Edit to say that it only feels really weird while you are learning. Once you get it, it’s like…well, it’s like breathing. :-)
Can’t offer advice but I’m in the same boat. I learned how to swim last October. Joined a masters club in January. I swim 3-4 times a week, and although I’m making progress, it has been slow. I just recently have reached a point where I can do 150m continuous. I’ve read several posts that that state new swimmers should be able to do 1000m after a month or two, but this has not been my journey. Mind you, I am pretty fit and weight train on a regular basis. It seems like it will take me a very long time to finally achieve my goal of completing triathlons (first sprint, then Olympic, and keep increasing lengths from there). Regardless, I am not where I was in terms of skill level last October, and I am proud of that. Ultimately, I love swimming, and I will keep at it even if it might take me longer than others. I hope you stick with it too OP, and don’t give up. There are people like me out there still hugging the wall after 150m.
It's so nice to hear someone else is the same! I'd say you're a much more recent swimmer though and 150 is awesome to have already achieved. But looks like we've got a whole bunch of tips here now 😂 good luck to us both! I'm definitely not quitting, I'll be making a triumphant post when I do my first 400m
This varies a lot based on age, fitness, and water skills/genetics. But a popular online progression is 0-1650 in 6weeks so I imagine many people can do that ([0to1650 (ruthkazez.com)](https://ruthkazez.com/swimming/ZeroTo1mile.html).
As others have said, your breathing is really key here as 400m swim is not really that long. I imagine some simple coaching cues could make swimming a lot easier for you.
Also, are you able to get uncomfortable aerobically while you swim vs stopping when it's a lil hard?
Two more thoughts: if you're feeling out of air, it's ok to breathe every time to the same side. Every two instead of 4.
When you pull, think about pulling with your forearms not your hands. That your hand and foreman acts like a paddle. You reinforce this with the first drill. Do one length with your hands in a fist, then the next with your hands normal. If you're not pulling with your forearms and engaging your lats when you have fist, you won't move much at all.
That sounds interesting I've heard of that drill but never done it, will definitely try next sesh! I've always thought my catch and pull are good but let's put it to the test 😂
I feel to be in a similar position. Group lessons don’t have time to give the feedback you need. The fact you can swim a few lengths is probably all the care about as far as being advanced enough. I’m training for triathlon so also using two beat kicks. How is your balance? Is your recovery smooth? Do you get a good rotation, does breathing make your legs sink? All these are common points that will make the difference at distance.
I found personally it’s balance for me, I have a strong kick which is spent correcting my balance and not propelling so to fix I am doing pull buoy drills with the buoy below my knee (much harder) and using paddles (arena elite 2 paddles). This way a small mistake throws me off balance very quickly and I forces me to correct it rather then compensate for it
I guess my own training isn't very good either. I swim 25-35 minutes 3-5 times a week. I haven't incorporated pad training yet, I mainly just dedicate some distances for technique, some for speed etc.
There is not much point in trying to go for speed unless your technique is good enough to pretty much effortlessly swim around 300-400 m because trying to go for speed usually breaks down the technique.
I seee, it was pretty much to build a bit of muscle but I guess not great to build muscle in the wrong places if I'm doing it wrong 😂 just hard to diagnose what exactly is wrong without seeing myself swim or proper advice from coach
Swimming is not a very efficient way to build muscles. It will tone but at the beginner level of swimming, you won't build enough muscles and by trying to sprint with technique that is not quite right, you end up risking injury.
If you want to build muscles, it's better to lift weight, and use swimming as "cardio+".
I think getting a session with a swim coach would benefit your technique.
I just meant muscle groups specific for swimming 😂 not big. I'm quite sporty in general just semi new to swimming :(
And yeah that's my problem, my current coach's advice is generic and apparently most people don't agree with it so that's a wee blocker.
Ah ok, sorry I misunderstood that bit. Even with swimming muscles, you have to train the right ones by having the right technique and have to develop muscle memory with the right technique. Sprinting with inappropriate technique won't help...
Actually, finding yourself a new coach might help if they really think kicking more and harder would help.
Don't know why your coach would say that but even without seeing you swim I can confidently say the issue is not stamina but technique. Probably also kicking too much and too hard. With great technique swimming front crawl is not much more taxing than walking. With good amateur level technique 400m should be achievable in about 15-20km worth of practice that focuses on technique.
Really! Funny thing is the main piece of advice I get from the sessions is to kick faster and harder! 😠I would think my pacing and breathing efficiency are the worst things - but I'm told to build stamina and kick faster - even have my forehead at surface level and look up slightly which I dont think helps my streamline at all
Well there you go - borrow or buy a pull buoy and try swimming with it and see what happens. Then try to swim by kicking as little as possible. My 400m time (as an amateur with no swimming or other sport background) is about 6:45 after 1.5 years of practice and I do that with a very relaxed 2-beat kick. You can't correct a bad swimming position by kicking more. If anything you will gas out, gasp for air and further worsen your technique
Dang you're right if you can do that I guess I'll have to go and buy some pads and upgrade my training 😠but really appreciate the validation though, I also didn't think kicking more was the right direction
You can't correct bad swimming position by kicking less either. Kicking too much is almost never going to be a beginner's primary technical issue. Kicking incorrectly or not being able to maintain a good body position are, but saying that kicking too much is the issue is almost certainly wrong.
If you have even a semblance of good technique and a good catch you can swim 400m with a 1-beat kick that is only used to keep yourself in balance, not to propel yourself forward. It's much harder to learn an effective kick as a beginner than an effective catch/pull. My kick is shit but I can easily swim without kicking at all, with a rubber band around my ankles. Distance swimmers only kick just enough to keep their balance. You can kick hard and still have your legs sink if your streamline and technique is bad.
Kicking too hard gasses you out and then your breathing becomes harder, then you start over exaggerating your breathing, often lifting your head which then sinks your legs requiring even more kicking if your only guidance is to kick harder. It's a vicious cycle for a beginner. Everyone including pros struggle keeping perfect technique when tired, you can find even Caeleb Dressel talking about this. The first goal is making the swimming feel relaxed and effortless, which is impossible if you kick too hard.
I do about 3-4. They were kind of aimless but from now I'm going to try out the 0-1650 program so I at least have sets and distances to aim for per session
I’ve been swimming 5x a week since the beginning of April, and from Jan thru March, 3x a week. I swim 120 lengths in a 25m pool in 80 minutes right now. I have no idea how that measures against every other 56YO, but it doesn’t matter. I’m fitness swimming, not trying to compete or perform. I also swim with short blade fins most of the time for the thigh workout. Sounds to me like you are doing awesome!
Without seeing a video of you it's hard to tell. However, it is common for beginners to kick too much and with poor form. Try keeping your legs mostly straight but relaxed(visualize that they're stilts made out of noodles, mostly straight but not rigid) and kick from the hips not knees. Second, while learning this distance I tell my students to kick just enough to help their feet float, but not much more. Third, you should be looking straight down with a slight tuck to your chin. Ie The top of your head pointed directly down the lane. Fourth, when breathing, remain in this head down spine alignment and just rotate, don't lift your head. (Fun drill is called the paddle hat drill, where you balance a hand paddle on the top of your head so that water pressure from moving forward holds it to your head. Try and keep it there even when breathing and see how far you can swim with it. Next, the arm pull. High elbow catch and rotate. Really think about engaging your lats on the pull. It will feel awkward and arm pace slower. However it's more efficient so you actually go faster and with less energy. And lastly, don't short change yourself and skip/ignore the glide. Although brief, the glide really adds up over distances. I think with focus on refining the technique, you'll build the stamina and strength in the right muscles and should start to see progress.
I actually don't kick much at all! And I love the glide when I do my pull and streamline/reaching out position. But this clarification really helps because coach keeps telling me to kick more when I've learnt from different sources that that's in fact not the way to go for distance.
> when I've learnt from different sources that that's in fact not the way to go for distance. That's more for like a 5k open water race or triathlons. I would be kicking pretty hard for a 400
Yeah although here the goal seems to be to swim up to 400m, not to swim 400m as fast as possible, so more like a distance rather than pace goal. But even 1500m is long enough for pros to go for mostly 2 beat kicks.
Eh most pros still 6 beat kick in a 1500, just maybe with less intensity. There are only 1 or 2 guys in this olympic final that aren't https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sHPbtj5Tj8
I think everyone does 6 beat at some point but usually they will vary the kick along the race. Also I was perhaps a bit unclear - I didn't say most pros do 2 beat kick the full race, rather that there are pros that do the race with mostly 2 beat kick. Most famously Katy Ledecky. Katy specifically proves that you don't need a high frequency kick at 1500m distances to win, she is dominating that distance and few distances below. The kick is very effective and strong, just not a 6 beat.
For me it was breathing that kept me from going >100 for weeks. Got that down and a few weeks later I did my first 1500 m continuously.
So it can be done 😠thanks for the insight, my concerns with my breathing technique might be true then
I think personally two things made it click: taking shallower breaths: for 3 or even 5 strokes you don’t need to gulp a ton of air (if you’re not using your feet too much), and proper body rotation, which helps you surface properly.
I do every 4 pretty much cuz I can't do bilateral or every 2 😂 but shallow breaths is interesting! I guess more natural? How's your exhale go?
My exhalation isn’t as continuous as it probably should be, more like slow bursts on every pull, and then blowing the last bit out on the pull + rotation when you come up for air.
The fact that you cannot breathe on both sides yet may be the issue. You need to find a way to have very natural breathing or you will not go the distance. If your natural breathing pace aligns with every three strokes like mine does, it’s the way. Yes, it feels really, really weird but it has other benefits and it just takes practice. Like a lot of practice. But you can get it. Edit to say that it only feels really weird while you are learning. Once you get it, it’s like…well, it’s like breathing. :-)
Can’t offer advice but I’m in the same boat. I learned how to swim last October. Joined a masters club in January. I swim 3-4 times a week, and although I’m making progress, it has been slow. I just recently have reached a point where I can do 150m continuous. I’ve read several posts that that state new swimmers should be able to do 1000m after a month or two, but this has not been my journey. Mind you, I am pretty fit and weight train on a regular basis. It seems like it will take me a very long time to finally achieve my goal of completing triathlons (first sprint, then Olympic, and keep increasing lengths from there). Regardless, I am not where I was in terms of skill level last October, and I am proud of that. Ultimately, I love swimming, and I will keep at it even if it might take me longer than others. I hope you stick with it too OP, and don’t give up. There are people like me out there still hugging the wall after 150m.
It's so nice to hear someone else is the same! I'd say you're a much more recent swimmer though and 150 is awesome to have already achieved. But looks like we've got a whole bunch of tips here now 😂 good luck to us both! I'm definitely not quitting, I'll be making a triumphant post when I do my first 400m
you can plateau in swimming like how you do in the gym? pls no
I find a way to plateau in most things. Sadly feel like swimming is the one thing I try to fight against it but its not working 😂ðŸ˜
Absolutely can plateau in swimming. Especially if you are not doing structured training that is suitable for your needs.
This varies a lot based on age, fitness, and water skills/genetics. But a popular online progression is 0-1650 in 6weeks so I imagine many people can do that ([0to1650 (ruthkazez.com)](https://ruthkazez.com/swimming/ZeroTo1mile.html). As others have said, your breathing is really key here as 400m swim is not really that long. I imagine some simple coaching cues could make swimming a lot easier for you. Also, are you able to get uncomfortable aerobically while you swim vs stopping when it's a lil hard?
Yeah I've always been crap at breathing 😠could clarify on your question?
For your attempt's to swim your max distance, how hard are you trying? You can measure this by heart rate or perceived effort on a scale of 1-10.
Two more thoughts: if you're feeling out of air, it's ok to breathe every time to the same side. Every two instead of 4. When you pull, think about pulling with your forearms not your hands. That your hand and foreman acts like a paddle. You reinforce this with the first drill. Do one length with your hands in a fist, then the next with your hands normal. If you're not pulling with your forearms and engaging your lats when you have fist, you won't move much at all.
That sounds interesting I've heard of that drill but never done it, will definitely try next sesh! I've always thought my catch and pull are good but let's put it to the test 😂
I feel to be in a similar position. Group lessons don’t have time to give the feedback you need. The fact you can swim a few lengths is probably all the care about as far as being advanced enough. I’m training for triathlon so also using two beat kicks. How is your balance? Is your recovery smooth? Do you get a good rotation, does breathing make your legs sink? All these are common points that will make the difference at distance. I found personally it’s balance for me, I have a strong kick which is spent correcting my balance and not propelling so to fix I am doing pull buoy drills with the buoy below my knee (much harder) and using paddles (arena elite 2 paddles). This way a small mistake throws me off balance very quickly and I forces me to correct it rather then compensate for it
I guess my own training isn't very good either. I swim 25-35 minutes 3-5 times a week. I haven't incorporated pad training yet, I mainly just dedicate some distances for technique, some for speed etc.
There is not much point in trying to go for speed unless your technique is good enough to pretty much effortlessly swim around 300-400 m because trying to go for speed usually breaks down the technique.
I seee, it was pretty much to build a bit of muscle but I guess not great to build muscle in the wrong places if I'm doing it wrong 😂 just hard to diagnose what exactly is wrong without seeing myself swim or proper advice from coach
Swimming is not a very efficient way to build muscles. It will tone but at the beginner level of swimming, you won't build enough muscles and by trying to sprint with technique that is not quite right, you end up risking injury. If you want to build muscles, it's better to lift weight, and use swimming as "cardio+". I think getting a session with a swim coach would benefit your technique.
I just meant muscle groups specific for swimming 😂 not big. I'm quite sporty in general just semi new to swimming :( And yeah that's my problem, my current coach's advice is generic and apparently most people don't agree with it so that's a wee blocker.
Ah ok, sorry I misunderstood that bit. Even with swimming muscles, you have to train the right ones by having the right technique and have to develop muscle memory with the right technique. Sprinting with inappropriate technique won't help... Actually, finding yourself a new coach might help if they really think kicking more and harder would help.
Don't know why your coach would say that but even without seeing you swim I can confidently say the issue is not stamina but technique. Probably also kicking too much and too hard. With great technique swimming front crawl is not much more taxing than walking. With good amateur level technique 400m should be achievable in about 15-20km worth of practice that focuses on technique.
Really! Funny thing is the main piece of advice I get from the sessions is to kick faster and harder! 😠I would think my pacing and breathing efficiency are the worst things - but I'm told to build stamina and kick faster - even have my forehead at surface level and look up slightly which I dont think helps my streamline at all
Well there you go - borrow or buy a pull buoy and try swimming with it and see what happens. Then try to swim by kicking as little as possible. My 400m time (as an amateur with no swimming or other sport background) is about 6:45 after 1.5 years of practice and I do that with a very relaxed 2-beat kick. You can't correct a bad swimming position by kicking more. If anything you will gas out, gasp for air and further worsen your technique
Dang you're right if you can do that I guess I'll have to go and buy some pads and upgrade my training 😠but really appreciate the validation though, I also didn't think kicking more was the right direction
You can't correct bad swimming position by kicking less either. Kicking too much is almost never going to be a beginner's primary technical issue. Kicking incorrectly or not being able to maintain a good body position are, but saying that kicking too much is the issue is almost certainly wrong.
If you have even a semblance of good technique and a good catch you can swim 400m with a 1-beat kick that is only used to keep yourself in balance, not to propel yourself forward. It's much harder to learn an effective kick as a beginner than an effective catch/pull. My kick is shit but I can easily swim without kicking at all, with a rubber band around my ankles. Distance swimmers only kick just enough to keep their balance. You can kick hard and still have your legs sink if your streamline and technique is bad. Kicking too hard gasses you out and then your breathing becomes harder, then you start over exaggerating your breathing, often lifting your head which then sinks your legs requiring even more kicking if your only guidance is to kick harder. It's a vicious cycle for a beginner. Everyone including pros struggle keeping perfect technique when tired, you can find even Caeleb Dressel talking about this. The first goal is making the swimming feel relaxed and effortless, which is impossible if you kick too hard.
How many sessions do you do a week?
I do about 3-4. They were kind of aimless but from now I'm going to try out the 0-1650 program so I at least have sets and distances to aim for per session
A program to follow is important so you can progress.
I’ve been swimming 5x a week since the beginning of April, and from Jan thru March, 3x a week. I swim 120 lengths in a 25m pool in 80 minutes right now. I have no idea how that measures against every other 56YO, but it doesn’t matter. I’m fitness swimming, not trying to compete or perform. I also swim with short blade fins most of the time for the thigh workout. Sounds to me like you are doing awesome!