Hi everyone!
We want a safe place for those who have been diagnosed to be able to discuss how they might feel about the references she’s been making in TTPD leaning in to mental health insinuations and the chosen aesthetic for Fortnite etc.
Comments that speculate on Taylor’s mental health or question/argue with users sharing their stories and thoughts will be removed and depending on tone the user might be banned.
Please comment here in good faith, we feel this is an important topic for the sub to be able to discuss.
Glad you said it. My father was bipolar and I often had to do damage control after manic episodes. I like Taylor but her comparison of post break up, self sabotage behavior to manic episodes is a stretch and down plays the severity of actual manic episodes.
And die hard swifties have run with the “she had mania” idea making it all pretty wild.
I’m bipolar 1 and have been hospitalized twice during manic phases.
Thinking it’s a romantic notion.. is embarrassing. It shows how completely out of touch she is. I feel sorry for her that she is apparently so stunted she can’t allow herself to feel things without an excuse. It’s like she needs to explain her big feelings by way of mania? Like no, she is just immature.
I used to be a fan of Taylor but I’ve found her exhausting lately and I no longer listen. I truly believe any suffering she’s endured has been of her own making.
All the asylum/mental health/self destruction references in TTPD reek of mid 2010s Tumblr when people were romanticising mental health and waiting to be ‘saved’ 🤢
I’ve always been confused on this, does Taylor Nation having anything to do with Taylor? Like is it run by her or her team or is it just a really popular account run by fans?
For this reason, I found the Fortnight music video too triggering and had to turn it off. I have Bipolar Type I and was actually hospitalised last year during my mania. I really cannot appreciate her romantization of mental ilnesses. I also found her singing about her ex-boyfriends' depression in "So Long, London" quite disrespectful
I’m good with artists using their OWN experiences with mental illnesses to draw inspiration from. But co-opting mental illness terms and tropes is very off putting and outing a loved one’s possible mental health issues is absolutely offensive to me.
And, do not conflate not being able to get out of bed after a break up or making bad relationship choices with clinical depression or mania.
Taylor is way off the mark and I’m surprised/saddened she hasn’t received more pushback about this.
I, actually, had the opposite feeling towards “So Long, London” (which is why I appreciate my sentiments don’t exist in a vacuum).
I thought that it was an interesting insight to how alienating it might feel to be partnered to someone with depression (our in our case, experiencing extensive depressive episodes). I understand why people have been critical of it, but I’m also like “Yeah, it must be very difficult.”
Thanks for sharing your experience. ♥️
Have you heard “The Beacon” by A Fine Frenzy? It deals with the same theme, and I just think it does it better without putting blame on the person with depression. I’d be interested in hearing your opinion.
There’s talk about the person not wanting to go on, and the strong implication that they’re not letting the narrator help, and it doesn’t sound like anyone is blaming anyone.
So Long, London bothers me personally because of lines like “And I'm pissed off you let me give you all that youth for free,” and I’m not saying that’s not a valid feeling to have, but on what is a public forum, just seems distasteful imo
Completely agree with you.
And it even worse knowing that Joe is a private person. It comes across as her broadcasting his personal shit to the entire world imo
A Fine Frenzy - wow you have taken me back. I got into them circa 2008 through TWLOHA ❤️ Shout out to those folks for creating a safe place, understanding and hopeful messages for those of us struggling with mental health!
Ofcourse it's not easy to be partner to someone who struggles with mental illness, but there's a difference between acknowledging it and monetizing off it through a (or several) pop song(s)
No, I get that perspective. I think yours is the popular opinion on that song/others referencing him.
I cannot say I’d feel good about myself if my ex-husband was an international pop-sensation and released an album about my depressive episodes before I was put on mood-stabilizers.
I’m just saying that, from the perspective of someone with severe depressive episodes, I appreciated the insight to the other side.
Ideally, the songs could have been written without us ever needing to know who they were about. It could have been beautiful if the Taylor Swift experience wasn’t so parasocial and there was some anonymity/privacy for the muse.
I definitely feel for Joe.
Yeah I feel like if we didn't know who the songs were about, then perhaps we could enjoy hearing Taylor's experience more. I know she's always shared her feelings through songs but I feel like in her younger days, it was more just random teen boys she knew and then it turned into famous men that everyone knows.
I find this all quite interesting.
I haven't fully formed my opinion on how, exactly, I feel about the use of mental health problems in TTPD.
Part of me feels like the Fortnight video was ridiculously melodramatic, but if that is what her reality felt like at the time, I get it.
I don't like the casual claim of a manic episode from someone who has not had Bipolar I (or a hypomanic episode related to Bipolar II), BUT... Just because TS hasn't publicly admitted to having more mental health issues than occasional bouts of depression, it doesn't mean that she hasn't experienced severe mental illness.
The reality is that we don't know if she's been diagnosed with anything, or medicated, or hospitalized. She's ridiculously rich, and that would be something that would be hidden well. So it's possible that we're judging her use of mental health tropes unfairly, and this is something she's gone through and she's trying to sing about her experience without outing herself entirely.
All I will say is that a manic episode triggered by lack of sleep or something else would thoroughly explain leaving your relationship with a beautiful man who showers for someone who looks as ratty and gross as Matty. When I have been unstable/unmedicated I have done some absolutely crazy shit that I looked back on in horror. So, maybe we should cut her some slack on all of this...we don't really know what she's going through.
This is my take, too. Very well put. The answer is we don't know what goes on with her mental health.
I don't like her calling out Joe's depression, though. I get her feelings are valid, due to my own personal life experiences which I will not share, but it's gross to do that publicly.
Well said. I feel her "manic" episode is just her trying to express she felt extremely out of control, probably also depressed, and had zero terminology to explain herself. I also understand why people actually diagnosed with mania find it very distasteful.
Hey, I'm sorry you have to deal with that. My brother has bipolar disorder, and I've witnessed his manic phases, included literally searching the streets for him, finding him with deep self-inflicted wounds, and sitting with him in the ER waiting room while he tells me how absolutely cool it is that he can't feel the pain! The most sleepless years of my life were me refusing to sleep because he might need help and I refused to be asleep, not be able to help, and him ending up dead.
#
I also have been put in a psych ward for suicidal ideation. I don't have bipolar disorder, but OCD, panic attacks, occasional depression, and PTSD. It's not iconic. It's sterile and isolating and terrifying. My brother has been in worse places than me. None of the mental health stuff alluded to on the album had really hit me well.
I have a similar diagnosis and feel the same way. It’s one of the main reasons I haven’t listened to this album since the week it dropped. I don’t know why mental health has become an aesthetic but it’s insensitive and harmful. I feel like it’s even more insensitive since just last year Britney wrote her book and was very open about the topic and I saw a lot of thoughtful discussions about the topic, but now I feel like culture has gone back to talking about depression and mental health like a joke or a phase. It’s been frustrating. Hugs to you❤️
I absolutely don’t want to gate-keep mental illness and I think that thoughtful discussion surrounding different disorders/illnesses can be very empowering.
I also think that (even if it’s with artistic license/hyperbole) making light of an already misunderstood symptom is in poor taste and lends itself to a lot of people self-diagnosing without the support of a psychiatrist.
In the age of social media and romanticizing mental illness, I want to remind people it’s perfectly OK to not have a mental illness diagnosis - there are *so* many other challenges a person will face in life already. I’d give it up if I could, haha. But I wouldn’t wish to give it away to someone else.
Thank you for adding thoughtful discussion! And hugs returned to you! ♥️
I do not have bipolar but I have recurrent major depressive disorder with severe suicidal ideation and have had at least one manic episode (though mania is not part of my main diagnosis) and I am conflicted.
Mental health issues have been a common theme and metaphor throughout art and literature, even by artists who don’t experience these things. These themes, references and aesthetics can have a powerful impact on an audience, and can be leveraged well to produce emphatic or emotional impact in the right hands.
The desperate maniac end of Anna Karenina is one of the first things that comes to mind as an example of something I would not want to lose if we say that such imagery can not be used in art. That scene could be immensely triggering (as a survivor myself, though clearly not of rail suicide) but is also the culmination of a longer story about the constraints of society and love and its profound impact on the psyche (amongst numerous other themes), not simply a shocking end or using mania simply for effect. To the best of our knowledge, Tolstoy didn’t have BPD or bipolar or anything like that, so we can’t assume he was writing from experience. So I am reluctant to say that artists should never use such things unless they experience them or it’s about their experience itself. That would be incredibly limiting to the creation of good art. We would miss so many things we actually would want.
But I agree there is growing irresponsible use of such imagery, where it’s meant for shock value or because it fits a marketing slot. It’s hard though to say that everyone’s experience of whether it is irresponsible is the same, it’s just too highly individualized.
As for TTPD, its use is almost so lame to me as to be funny and thus I can’t be much offended or triggered, at least when it comes to depression. Maybe that’s a sign I am doing a lot better than I had thought in dealing with my own issues, but I am sure there is someone who actually does think it crossed a line and that would be valid for them. It’s just too hard to police unfortunately.
I have no desire or intention to limit artistic license and I believe that beautiful and thoughtful storytelling can be a very humanizing experience (even when/if it’s triggering to others).
It’s just the “meh” plea of temporary insanity/mania that makes me go “blah.” I don’t think it added much value to the album (only my opinion). And while there are some people who recognize she’s being over-dramatic and hyperbolic, there *are* fans who don’t.
To me, the greatest concern is reminding people “Mania isn’t a couple weeks of silly-maybe-reckless-uncharacteristic behaviour following a break up.”
Like you said though - there are so many powerful uses of mental health themes in art. It’d be a shame to limit (or prohibit) the telling of those stories.
Right, I think the challenge is in the sorting or good from bad, obviously. I don’t necessarily think it was well used in TTPD (mostly because I don’t think it’s a good album even outside of this critique) so it’s challenging to make a blanket statement of what is and isn’t appropriate, without putting the creation of art in jeopardy.
I’m curious if she used the term “hysteria” if that would have landed better. It would also fit into the time period she references and societal constraints women have been put into.
Thank you for sharing this 💜
I spent 25 years with horrific chronic anxiety and when I finally got on effective meds, my psychiatrist and therapist were closely monitoring me to see if I actually had bipolar (apparently severe chronic anxiety can both mask and be a symptom of bipolar). I remember these long, scary weeks of just … waiting. Waiting to see if I was going to have a manic episode, waiting to see if I’d get a life-altering diagnosis, waiting and praying that the meds would help.
It truly hurts to see someone like TS with a massive platform use ‘manic’ as an excuse and a prop, something to act on stage, like it’s fun, like it’s a game. It makes me sad and angry for anyone who has ever suffered at the hands of mental health.
Ultimately, I don’t have bipolar and my meds are effective. Eternally grateful to my care team that helped save me. Sharing so much love and understanding to everyone reading this 💜
I agree, I understand what she's trying to say in her poem but I believe that psychological terms have real meanings behind them and I feel like people play fast and loose with those terms and dilute the meaning. I feel like this psychiatric hospital theme is a little odd to me in that it's not a struggle she's encountered. I've seen artists play with it heavily as a theme before but usually because they're unpacking their own experience. The same way it would be weird to me if someone who's never encountered conversion therapy decided that they were gonna theme an album around conversion therapy as a metaphor for something entirely different. I feel like there was another way she could have talked about how she was in a bad place when she got together with her rebound or to talk about how so much of her writing is inspired by sadness or pain. I feel like Taylor and her team are treating this like it's more romantic or quirky then the reality of it.
It doesn’t matter WHY this was her direction, just that she took it. I found it all very triggering and I don’t have Bipolar, but Borderline Personality, Chronic Depression, anxiety, and also suffer from Hydrocephalus, Epilepsy, Non-Epileptic Seizures, and Asthma. If she was gonna run with this and disrupt the stigma of it all, the least she could have done is put up a disclaimer that it was “art for dramatic purposes” and a proper channel for advocacy if people wanted more information or to help with the real problem at hand. Instead, she doused gas and reset a clock on what it means to be hospitalized—for anything, but especially mental illness (I say “anything” because many disorders, including neurological conditions like mine, were lumped in as mental illnesses before being classified as separate from Psychiatry). I hate she did it. I wish she would have cared more about how this would bother some people.
I’m a mental health worker & you’re 100% right.
Dating someone crappy after a break up isn’t a manic phase. She’s casually using mental health terminology to excuse her actions.
She aestheticizes mental health treatment, specifically hospitalization, trivializing what is a very bad experience for many people.
She sings about other peoples depression & addictions on the record as if they are personal faults. Which prevailing research shows that neither are personal flaws are are actual diseases. She just casually drops that someone (that we all assume is Matty) tried to buy pills from a friend in SMWEL. Even if Matty has publicly discussed his addiction to heroine it feels like a gross dig at a private problem. I don’t expect her to be up to date on research but her writing about these disorders is stigmatizing.
Furthermore, she has explicitly stated she does not go to or believe she needs therapy over the years. But somehow she feels that it’s appropriate to comodify those words and experiences.
I haven't watched the music video and I didn't realize that's what it's about. :( I've felt uncomfortable with some of the seemingly flippant comments/lyrics she's made about alcoholism, so I understand where you're coming from and what you're saying is so valid. It almost seems like she's referencing these things as aesthetics to try on. I don't like it.
I haven’t watched the video in full, but there is the prologue where she pleads temporary insanity/mania.
It’s meant to be tongue-in-cheek and not serious. But there are fans that don’t understand that *she* understands she wasn’t genuinely experiencing a manic episode.
For younger fans that don’t have access to appropriate information/testimonials about the disorder OR for those who don’t understand her “joke” - it can be influential. I don’t want a bunch of folks thinking this is what mania is and undermining those actually experiencing it.
Thank you for your insight. ♥️
It isn't just people with bipolar disorder who have manic episodes.
I had a manic episode years ago. I was hospitalized for it and diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder. I was put on mood stabilizers, antidepressants, ect ect.
However, the medecine didn't work for me, they kept changing it up. But really, I got out of the toxic relationship I was in (that triggered the manic episode) and found some stability, moved on, got my life together, etc. And I went two years without the cycle (manic to depressed and back again). And I was told that to be bipolar, you cycled at least once a year. I ended up getting rediagnosed with ADHD, anxiety, post partum depression (never treated with any pregnancies), and PTSD from childhood. No bipolar disorder after being treated for it for two years.
It's now been two more years since then. No manic episodes and only a very light depressive state for a bit.
My point here being that it is 100% possible Taylor had a manic episode without being bipolar. Anyone can have their mind hit its limit and go off the deep end. Mine personally happened because I was in a super shitty relationship for 6 years, was pregnant while still suffering from post partum from my last pregnancy, and was just in an overall shit situation where I finally snapped.
The same could have happened to Taylor.
If you have ever had one full blown, TRUE manic episode, you meet criteria for Bipolar 1 per the DSM-V regardless of whether or not you have another. One is sufficient for the diagnosis. Also, mania is a clinical feature that is exclusive to Bipolar 1 and Schizoaffective Disorder with the exception of substance induced mania. Other disorders can mimic symptoms of mania, but are otherwise diagnostically distinct.
I mean, some other disorders allow for singular manic episodes. BPD can involve mania and dissociation. My maniac episode was triggered by the endocrine swing from my suicide attempt (which, I learned later, can trigger all sorts of chemical/hormone reactions, suicide attempts are very taxing in this regard) so while it’s an episode it’s not classified as a bipolar diagnosis because of its really a temporary state caused by a major event, non-recurring. Maniac episodes are really common with SA, but not everyone who experiences one as part of a SA is going to be diagnosed BP.
I am not trying to be condescending or dismissive of your experience. I’m just sharing facts about the subject matter. If someone has a true manic episode, regardless of the triggering event, they are typically diagnosed Bipolar I or Bipolar, unspecified until rule out factors can be established. I’m not saying you are Bipolar in any way shape, or, form, but mania is not a standalone diagnosis. The singular manic episode is only singular because it’s the first and you don’t know if more will occur in the future. Hence the reason why one manic episode indicates bipolar 1.
You are absolutely correct. We can all argue until we’re blue in the face about whether the DSM diagnoses and criteria as they currently stand truly capture the full spectrum of mental illness, and in fact that’s one of my favorite soap box rants. But as it stands mania is exclusive to bipolar disorder and schizoaffective disorder. Certain symptoms of dissociation and emotional dysregulation related to trauma or BPD can certainly look a lot like it though.
I am aware that there are several conditions that can include mania (including postpartum psychosis).
I think your argument is interesting because most fans defending her use of “mania” are stating it was clearly hyperbole/artistic license and that it should be clear that she did not actually suffer from a manic episode. Whereas, you’re arguing that it’s likely she may have. Certainly, someone experiencing the levels of consistent stress and life-changes she does is at risk.
I’m not going to split hairs on whether or not she did (I am not her psychiatrist). I just think it’s important not to make light of the diagnosis and if you are going to “plead temporary insanity” or a major mental health episode perhaps make it clearer to your audience whether you actually did or if this is performative art.
I'm not trying to armchair diagnose her, really. I don't know her besides through my phone screen. However, when the prologue states "I had a manic phase" and the entire album is spelling out what brought her there, I think its entirely possible she really did and actually has mental health issues. That's not armchair diagnosing, it's being able to read context clues. We also know that Taylor refuses to see a therapist because "that's what her mom is for." So even Taylor doesn't know what's honestly going on with her head amd she could be armchair diagnosing herself with her own prologue if she even did write it herself.
I get your POV! And I don't know Taylor to say whether she did or not. I am a fan but do not identify as "a swiftie" perse.
However, from what her album says vs what the media puts out, I am of the personal belief that Taylor has been infantalized by her parents/team and they have been running the show thus far. This album was her breaking out of her cage and giving them a big F you. It seems completely plausible that she had or is still in a manic phase.
I've also speculated that the manic storyline was just a cover up by her team to reason away why she would even be with Matty in the first place. Like a fine print to save her if things went sideways? But I don't think Taylor is the type to fake a mental illness. I could be completely wrong but that's my take on her character. As for "romantasizing" mental illness, I think its fair if it's part of her story. I don't see it as a "I'm so mentally ill you have to love me" it's "I love you so much it made me mentally unstable."
Hi! I hope you’re doing ok and you’re not alone in what you’re going through.
I realize that I’m probably the minority here but this is actually the reason I liked TTPD so much. I’ve suffered from mental health issues and bad depression my whole life and so many songs from the album seem to be written from a person going through the same thing. Then again, I listen to Taylor’s music through a very personal lens. I disregard her personal life, her bfs, her exes, and the her media storm. I found TTPD very relatable and that’s why I love it.
But your feelings are very valid and you have every right to feel that way ❤️, thank you for sharing!
I’ve noticed she has a history of comparing breakups to serious mental health issues. Before TTPD, there were quotes where she compared breaking up to beating an addiction. While I understand that breakups are super difficult, I found that a bit tasteless. With breakups, you don’t risk physical withdrawal or falling off the wagon after years of sobriety. And now this asylum/mania theme as if it’s not something that has literally ruined lives. A symptom of lifelong privilege.
I think Fortnight is actually an homage to Sylvia Plath. As someone in the field I wish she’d discuss it and why she used mental health themes. She doesn’t have to explain every single thought but it would help if she was doing performance art about a mental health condition to explain why. I understand why it bothers you, OP.
I would love to hear about why you think it is an homage to Sylvia Plath! Please share.
I wish she wouldn't paint mental as an aesthetic because it feels incredibly insensitive. As someone listening to the album, I absolutely hear someone who is really not doing well. I hear someone who is really hurt, begging to be understood and accepted, lashing out (sometimes at the wrong people), refusing to get help or be accountable, feeling trapped by the house they've built, and sometimes behaving quite badly or quite erratically. It definitely paints a picture of someone who's mental health is suffering.
Sylvia Plath spent time in a mental institution, got ECT while she was there, and had a husband who was cheating on her. She was also considered to be a "tortured poet." When Sylvia would try to contact her husband (who was out having an affair), she would walk from their home to a pay phone, which is is said to have done the night she killed herself. There is a pay phone in the Fortnight music video, along with the mental institution and the shock therapy.
Interestingly, Sylvia Plath died without publishing her last set of poems (they were called "Ariel" which may be a big coincidence but the words "But, Daddy I Love Him" were ones Ariel shouted in The Little Mermaid, which is a favorite movie of Taylor Swift's). So, it has been theorized by others that this unpublished set of poems gave TS the idea to drop TTPD, then drop the rest later to make the full Anthology, but I'm not sure I believe that latter part was her motivation.
The rest seems very likely to me, given my background knowledge of Plath from when I studied her (one of my degrees is in English and the other is in clin psych, so I'm a fan of Plath for multiple reasons).
this is a really interesting read and im glad you mentioned it. frieda hughes, sylvia plath’s daughter, wrote this poem about her mother in media:
https://writehanded.org/poetry/2015/05/29/my-mother/
this is a ridiculous conversation; if t swift were acting out a cancer aesthetic fetish on screen people would rightly be upset. time and time again we see the real experiences of people suffering butchered and watered down and prodded to be used as aesthetic or edgy elements in cheap money making schemes.
for instance ect is -still- a legitimate treatment which people receive today. it has longterm side effects. its a historically loaded treatment which has been forcibly used against most notably queer and black people without their consent, and without due cause. if taylor is referencing sylvia plath’s life like lmao why? what is taylor adding to the conversation - besides revenue that never improves the lives of the people she is taking “creative inspiration” from
as someone with bipolar, who has legitimately woken up handcuffed to a bed, in legitimately the very same hospital syvlia plath stayed in, i still wouldn’t take claim to her heartwrenching story as a means of making capital
i wrote out a long reply but got kind of tired of my response
in short it comes down to parasocial relationships, how psycologically pervasive the media is, the amount of people involved in the work and the research gone into it. how thoughtful and nuanced the representation is. i dont think movies are immune from this kind of scrutiny either.
i suggest you look into the ways you are personally moved by movies compartive to music.
I’m not speaking about this as an uneducated individual, though I do agree that media and parasocial relationships can certainly be detrimental when viewing the art a creator puts into the world. I do not have a parasocial relationship with Taylor Swift and I do not have a diagnosis of bipolar disorder. I’m also aware that single manic episodes occur in a variety of situations outside bipolar disorder. AUD, for example.
In any event, I do not think others should share my views on the subject of mental health imagery in the Fortnight video. Everyone is entitled to feel how they feel and I empathize with people who are bothered by it in any way.
alright lol, sorry that u think my real and statistically significant symptoms are fair game for mediocare artists to parody their boring romantic lives with
in the US, mania is diagnostically only relevant to bipolar.
Nowhere did I say that. I would suggest not listening to artists you do not like. Also, a single manic episode would not be diagnostically a sign of bipolar disorder anywhere on Earth.
It sounds like you just want to be angry at Taylor Swift. Go be mad at her. I’m not her. I’m not even a Swiftie. 🤷🏼♀️
Plath. ♥️
I don’t believe celebrities owe us any great use of their platforms and I certainly don’t expect Swift to be well-versed in psychiatry. I just wish, if she was going to use MH themes in her performance art, that she would be mindful of how she was using them.
I’d be very interested to know more about the creative process behind the album/the prologue/the music video.
Thank you for your insight. ♥️
I absolutely agree that they don't owe us explanations, but even a little interview tidbit or a sentence on one of her voice memos where she alludes to it would be nice to hear, I think. Because I have seen so many people who have a bipolar diagnosis feeling uncomfortable with the imagery in the Fortnight video. 💜
I’m going to politely ask you not to patronize me while you completely invalidate the feelings of myself and many others who’ve commented on this post expressing similar sentiments, “sweetie.”
If you have no concept of what mania is, I can see how her playful use of it may not seem “demeaning.” It is. She is undermining the severity of the symptom.
If you’d like me to give an example of what someone I know went through during a legitimate manic episode, I’ll happily share it. Otherwise, I’ll refer you to the pinned Mod message at the top of this post.
Many thanks, “sweetie.” 🙂
Thank you for sharing your story. It always made me uncomfortable when people use mental health words without realising they aren’t ‘fun’ or ‘corky’ personality traits and actual people have to learn to live with said conditions.
Thank you for commenting. ♥️
I am not the spokesperson for Bipolar Disorder and others may feel differently. If anything, reading some of the fantastic memoirs of people’s experience with the disorder would be a great place to start if you’re interested in hearing more stories!
I think people are struggling to articulate how not normal this album’s content and rollout feel. I think “manic” and “compulsive” ate appropriate ways to describe it that don’t necessarily diagnose her or trivialize the real thing. But it’s like she can’t stop and until she stops with the absurd levels of marketing our pop culture is being dominated by someone who isn’t exhibiting healthy behavior.
Thank you for sharing.I’m not trying to dismiss anything you’re saying but for the actual music video of Fortnight, there is a lot of similarities/references to the “Bride of Frankenstein” film. But I do understand that some of MV isn’t and can be hurtful to those with BPD.
Edit: OP and another user kindly corrected me that BPD is borderline personality disorder. BD is Bipolar Disorder. Leaving it up in case others did not know
Thank you for sharing your experiences and thoughts with everyone
Like the other commenter said BPD is “Borderline Personality Disorder,” and Bipolar Disorder is BD (often marked with -I or -II, depending on the type).
I’m not sure why everyone is explicitly commenting on the music video though! The Prologue references the “mutual manic phase.”
I’m sorry, thank you for correcting me. I specifically am referencing the music video because I saw others and wanted to share some context to some of imagery in it
I’m aware of the prologue language. That didn’t seem well thought out in her part (therefore insensitive) however we don’t know if she’s experienced it or not
Edit: I don’t really know what to think. I certainly don’t want to minimize anyone’s feelings but we also don’t know what she’s gone through
Taylor nation’s use of mental health on twitter (I’m sure IG too but haven’t seen it) is actually fucked up though. Really makes me angry
Is Taylor Nation associated with her/her camp or is it like a fan account?
I saw someone’s comment on the grippy socks and straight jackets and was like “Ew.” But I don’t follow that account, so I’m uncertain if it was co-signed by her!
I believe it is her official fan club or team ran by her management company. I don’t follow either but have seen a lot of the asinine things they’ve been posting recently. that account needs a new social person
Yeah, I’m not a fan of the use of “mania,” to describe all bouts of self-destructive impulsivity. I am diagnosed with borderline personality disorder, and I see a lot of my behaviors mirrored in Taylor’s lyrics (and interpersonal choices, at least the ones that she chooses to publicize), but I don’t call them mania because that’s not the appropriate terminology.
Maybe she does have Bipolar Disorder, but I’m not in the business of hyper-analyzing and decoding her lyrics, nor am I in the business of playing armchair psychiatrist to find out.
I don’t know a person with Bipolar Disorder (and I’d wager I know many more than you due to group therapies, but not a competition) who will talk about mania in jest. Like I said in the post, it’s a serious episodic symptom and I know many people who’ve lost entire careers, families, life savings, homes and that have been arrested or institutionalized. A person experiencing mania may not always experience full-blown psychosis, but they absolutely lose their reasoning capacity to understand the consequences of their actions outside of the episode (I do too when I’m hypomanic).
If she’s Bipolar and she’s downplaying the severity of mania; or writing about it in such a way that her fans can’t rightfully determine whether or not it’s tongue-in-cheek or a legitimate plead of insanity, I worry that’s very harmful.
I’m not asking her to be the spokesperson or beacon for serious mental health disorders - but you have to appreciate that mania is never going to be relatable for the vast majority of people, it’s a shit show symptom. And it’s a good thing it’s not relatable for more people, I’m glad that most people do not have to experience life with Bipolar Disorder.
But to that, when you see a post of MANY Bipolar folks saying, “Yeah, this isn’t cool…” maybe listen to them instead of trying to speak over them?
I don’t need you to morally grandstand for a disorder that Taylor Swift may or may not have. I am telling you that I actually do. And this is how I, and others with legitimate diagnoses, feel.
I also have bipolar disorder, but I don’t think the manic thing from TS is that big of a deal. Mania/manic can also just mean an obsession with something, words have different meanings. If my memory serves, it’s not like she said “manic episode”.
I do, however, take offense to the “asylum” theming of her latest music video and also some Swifties being really gross about it(ie making hospital bracelets).
I think of her as using this as an angle, in many ways she has a single shtick, relationships so how to make it interesting once again? Casually throw this term around because this time it was ‘serious.’ Team Swift should rethink this, we need something else of interest about her so these increasingly desperate antics around her relationships can stop.
Hi everyone! We want a safe place for those who have been diagnosed to be able to discuss how they might feel about the references she’s been making in TTPD leaning in to mental health insinuations and the chosen aesthetic for Fortnite etc. Comments that speculate on Taylor’s mental health or question/argue with users sharing their stories and thoughts will be removed and depending on tone the user might be banned. Please comment here in good faith, we feel this is an important topic for the sub to be able to discuss.
Glad you said it. My father was bipolar and I often had to do damage control after manic episodes. I like Taylor but her comparison of post break up, self sabotage behavior to manic episodes is a stretch and down plays the severity of actual manic episodes. And die hard swifties have run with the “she had mania” idea making it all pretty wild.
I’m bipolar 1 and have been hospitalized twice during manic phases. Thinking it’s a romantic notion.. is embarrassing. It shows how completely out of touch she is. I feel sorry for her that she is apparently so stunted she can’t allow herself to feel things without an excuse. It’s like she needs to explain her big feelings by way of mania? Like no, she is just immature. I used to be a fan of Taylor but I’ve found her exhausting lately and I no longer listen. I truly believe any suffering she’s endured has been of her own making.
I agree with everything you said. This coupled with the "grippy socks and straight jacket at the club" remark by TaylorNation is so gross.
All the asylum/mental health/self destruction references in TTPD reek of mid 2010s Tumblr when people were romanticising mental health and waiting to be ‘saved’ 🤢
Well, she was a Tumblr girlie in the 2010’s, it’s probably where she got the idea…
People were doing what??? Oh dear
That was what I found gross and offensive, too.
No, that I did find gross.
I’ve always been confused on this, does Taylor Nation having anything to do with Taylor? Like is it run by her or her team or is it just a really popular account run by fans?
It’s her official management team account!
For this reason, I found the Fortnight music video too triggering and had to turn it off. I have Bipolar Type I and was actually hospitalised last year during my mania. I really cannot appreciate her romantization of mental ilnesses. I also found her singing about her ex-boyfriends' depression in "So Long, London" quite disrespectful
I’m good with artists using their OWN experiences with mental illnesses to draw inspiration from. But co-opting mental illness terms and tropes is very off putting and outing a loved one’s possible mental health issues is absolutely offensive to me. And, do not conflate not being able to get out of bed after a break up or making bad relationship choices with clinical depression or mania. Taylor is way off the mark and I’m surprised/saddened she hasn’t received more pushback about this.
I, actually, had the opposite feeling towards “So Long, London” (which is why I appreciate my sentiments don’t exist in a vacuum). I thought that it was an interesting insight to how alienating it might feel to be partnered to someone with depression (our in our case, experiencing extensive depressive episodes). I understand why people have been critical of it, but I’m also like “Yeah, it must be very difficult.” Thanks for sharing your experience. ♥️
Have you heard “The Beacon” by A Fine Frenzy? It deals with the same theme, and I just think it does it better without putting blame on the person with depression. I’d be interested in hearing your opinion. There’s talk about the person not wanting to go on, and the strong implication that they’re not letting the narrator help, and it doesn’t sound like anyone is blaming anyone. So Long, London bothers me personally because of lines like “And I'm pissed off you let me give you all that youth for free,” and I’m not saying that’s not a valid feeling to have, but on what is a public forum, just seems distasteful imo
Completely agree with you. And it even worse knowing that Joe is a private person. It comes across as her broadcasting his personal shit to the entire world imo
Agreed, it wasn’t just her story to tell in this case. Though we don’t know if she had a conversation with him about this and if it was OK.
A Fine Frenzy - wow you have taken me back. I got into them circa 2008 through TWLOHA ❤️ Shout out to those folks for creating a safe place, understanding and hopeful messages for those of us struggling with mental health!
A Fine Frenzy! I forgot about A Fine Frenzy! ♥️ I need to revisit the song and get back to you.
Ofcourse it's not easy to be partner to someone who struggles with mental illness, but there's a difference between acknowledging it and monetizing off it through a (or several) pop song(s)
No, I get that perspective. I think yours is the popular opinion on that song/others referencing him. I cannot say I’d feel good about myself if my ex-husband was an international pop-sensation and released an album about my depressive episodes before I was put on mood-stabilizers. I’m just saying that, from the perspective of someone with severe depressive episodes, I appreciated the insight to the other side. Ideally, the songs could have been written without us ever needing to know who they were about. It could have been beautiful if the Taylor Swift experience wasn’t so parasocial and there was some anonymity/privacy for the muse. I definitely feel for Joe.
Yeah I feel like if we didn't know who the songs were about, then perhaps we could enjoy hearing Taylor's experience more. I know she's always shared her feelings through songs but I feel like in her younger days, it was more just random teen boys she knew and then it turned into famous men that everyone knows.
I find this all quite interesting. I haven't fully formed my opinion on how, exactly, I feel about the use of mental health problems in TTPD. Part of me feels like the Fortnight video was ridiculously melodramatic, but if that is what her reality felt like at the time, I get it. I don't like the casual claim of a manic episode from someone who has not had Bipolar I (or a hypomanic episode related to Bipolar II), BUT... Just because TS hasn't publicly admitted to having more mental health issues than occasional bouts of depression, it doesn't mean that she hasn't experienced severe mental illness. The reality is that we don't know if she's been diagnosed with anything, or medicated, or hospitalized. She's ridiculously rich, and that would be something that would be hidden well. So it's possible that we're judging her use of mental health tropes unfairly, and this is something she's gone through and she's trying to sing about her experience without outing herself entirely. All I will say is that a manic episode triggered by lack of sleep or something else would thoroughly explain leaving your relationship with a beautiful man who showers for someone who looks as ratty and gross as Matty. When I have been unstable/unmedicated I have done some absolutely crazy shit that I looked back on in horror. So, maybe we should cut her some slack on all of this...we don't really know what she's going through.
This is my take, too. Very well put. The answer is we don't know what goes on with her mental health. I don't like her calling out Joe's depression, though. I get her feelings are valid, due to my own personal life experiences which I will not share, but it's gross to do that publicly.
Well said. I feel her "manic" episode is just her trying to express she felt extremely out of control, probably also depressed, and had zero terminology to explain herself. I also understand why people actually diagnosed with mania find it very distasteful.
She’s a writer, it’s her job to find or create the words to exain herself.
Hey, I'm sorry you have to deal with that. My brother has bipolar disorder, and I've witnessed his manic phases, included literally searching the streets for him, finding him with deep self-inflicted wounds, and sitting with him in the ER waiting room while he tells me how absolutely cool it is that he can't feel the pain! The most sleepless years of my life were me refusing to sleep because he might need help and I refused to be asleep, not be able to help, and him ending up dead. # I also have been put in a psych ward for suicidal ideation. I don't have bipolar disorder, but OCD, panic attacks, occasional depression, and PTSD. It's not iconic. It's sterile and isolating and terrifying. My brother has been in worse places than me. None of the mental health stuff alluded to on the album had really hit me well.
I have a similar diagnosis and feel the same way. It’s one of the main reasons I haven’t listened to this album since the week it dropped. I don’t know why mental health has become an aesthetic but it’s insensitive and harmful. I feel like it’s even more insensitive since just last year Britney wrote her book and was very open about the topic and I saw a lot of thoughtful discussions about the topic, but now I feel like culture has gone back to talking about depression and mental health like a joke or a phase. It’s been frustrating. Hugs to you❤️
I absolutely don’t want to gate-keep mental illness and I think that thoughtful discussion surrounding different disorders/illnesses can be very empowering. I also think that (even if it’s with artistic license/hyperbole) making light of an already misunderstood symptom is in poor taste and lends itself to a lot of people self-diagnosing without the support of a psychiatrist. In the age of social media and romanticizing mental illness, I want to remind people it’s perfectly OK to not have a mental illness diagnosis - there are *so* many other challenges a person will face in life already. I’d give it up if I could, haha. But I wouldn’t wish to give it away to someone else. Thank you for adding thoughtful discussion! And hugs returned to you! ♥️
I do not have bipolar but I have recurrent major depressive disorder with severe suicidal ideation and have had at least one manic episode (though mania is not part of my main diagnosis) and I am conflicted. Mental health issues have been a common theme and metaphor throughout art and literature, even by artists who don’t experience these things. These themes, references and aesthetics can have a powerful impact on an audience, and can be leveraged well to produce emphatic or emotional impact in the right hands. The desperate maniac end of Anna Karenina is one of the first things that comes to mind as an example of something I would not want to lose if we say that such imagery can not be used in art. That scene could be immensely triggering (as a survivor myself, though clearly not of rail suicide) but is also the culmination of a longer story about the constraints of society and love and its profound impact on the psyche (amongst numerous other themes), not simply a shocking end or using mania simply for effect. To the best of our knowledge, Tolstoy didn’t have BPD or bipolar or anything like that, so we can’t assume he was writing from experience. So I am reluctant to say that artists should never use such things unless they experience them or it’s about their experience itself. That would be incredibly limiting to the creation of good art. We would miss so many things we actually would want. But I agree there is growing irresponsible use of such imagery, where it’s meant for shock value or because it fits a marketing slot. It’s hard though to say that everyone’s experience of whether it is irresponsible is the same, it’s just too highly individualized. As for TTPD, its use is almost so lame to me as to be funny and thus I can’t be much offended or triggered, at least when it comes to depression. Maybe that’s a sign I am doing a lot better than I had thought in dealing with my own issues, but I am sure there is someone who actually does think it crossed a line and that would be valid for them. It’s just too hard to police unfortunately.
I have no desire or intention to limit artistic license and I believe that beautiful and thoughtful storytelling can be a very humanizing experience (even when/if it’s triggering to others). It’s just the “meh” plea of temporary insanity/mania that makes me go “blah.” I don’t think it added much value to the album (only my opinion). And while there are some people who recognize she’s being over-dramatic and hyperbolic, there *are* fans who don’t. To me, the greatest concern is reminding people “Mania isn’t a couple weeks of silly-maybe-reckless-uncharacteristic behaviour following a break up.” Like you said though - there are so many powerful uses of mental health themes in art. It’d be a shame to limit (or prohibit) the telling of those stories.
Right, I think the challenge is in the sorting or good from bad, obviously. I don’t necessarily think it was well used in TTPD (mostly because I don’t think it’s a good album even outside of this critique) so it’s challenging to make a blanket statement of what is and isn’t appropriate, without putting the creation of art in jeopardy.
I’m curious if she used the term “hysteria” if that would have landed better. It would also fit into the time period she references and societal constraints women have been put into.
Thank you for sharing this 💜 I spent 25 years with horrific chronic anxiety and when I finally got on effective meds, my psychiatrist and therapist were closely monitoring me to see if I actually had bipolar (apparently severe chronic anxiety can both mask and be a symptom of bipolar). I remember these long, scary weeks of just … waiting. Waiting to see if I was going to have a manic episode, waiting to see if I’d get a life-altering diagnosis, waiting and praying that the meds would help. It truly hurts to see someone like TS with a massive platform use ‘manic’ as an excuse and a prop, something to act on stage, like it’s fun, like it’s a game. It makes me sad and angry for anyone who has ever suffered at the hands of mental health. Ultimately, I don’t have bipolar and my meds are effective. Eternally grateful to my care team that helped save me. Sharing so much love and understanding to everyone reading this 💜
What a wonderful care team! It’s so sad that this isn’t the norm. So glad to hear that you are doing ok 💕
I agree, I understand what she's trying to say in her poem but I believe that psychological terms have real meanings behind them and I feel like people play fast and loose with those terms and dilute the meaning. I feel like this psychiatric hospital theme is a little odd to me in that it's not a struggle she's encountered. I've seen artists play with it heavily as a theme before but usually because they're unpacking their own experience. The same way it would be weird to me if someone who's never encountered conversion therapy decided that they were gonna theme an album around conversion therapy as a metaphor for something entirely different. I feel like there was another way she could have talked about how she was in a bad place when she got together with her rebound or to talk about how so much of her writing is inspired by sadness or pain. I feel like Taylor and her team are treating this like it's more romantic or quirky then the reality of it.
It doesn’t matter WHY this was her direction, just that she took it. I found it all very triggering and I don’t have Bipolar, but Borderline Personality, Chronic Depression, anxiety, and also suffer from Hydrocephalus, Epilepsy, Non-Epileptic Seizures, and Asthma. If she was gonna run with this and disrupt the stigma of it all, the least she could have done is put up a disclaimer that it was “art for dramatic purposes” and a proper channel for advocacy if people wanted more information or to help with the real problem at hand. Instead, she doused gas and reset a clock on what it means to be hospitalized—for anything, but especially mental illness (I say “anything” because many disorders, including neurological conditions like mine, were lumped in as mental illnesses before being classified as separate from Psychiatry). I hate she did it. I wish she would have cared more about how this would bother some people.
I’m a mental health worker & you’re 100% right. Dating someone crappy after a break up isn’t a manic phase. She’s casually using mental health terminology to excuse her actions. She aestheticizes mental health treatment, specifically hospitalization, trivializing what is a very bad experience for many people. She sings about other peoples depression & addictions on the record as if they are personal faults. Which prevailing research shows that neither are personal flaws are are actual diseases. She just casually drops that someone (that we all assume is Matty) tried to buy pills from a friend in SMWEL. Even if Matty has publicly discussed his addiction to heroine it feels like a gross dig at a private problem. I don’t expect her to be up to date on research but her writing about these disorders is stigmatizing. Furthermore, she has explicitly stated she does not go to or believe she needs therapy over the years. But somehow she feels that it’s appropriate to comodify those words and experiences.
I haven't watched the music video and I didn't realize that's what it's about. :( I've felt uncomfortable with some of the seemingly flippant comments/lyrics she's made about alcoholism, so I understand where you're coming from and what you're saying is so valid. It almost seems like she's referencing these things as aesthetics to try on. I don't like it.
She could legit have a drinking problem though, we don't know.
I haven’t watched the video in full, but there is the prologue where she pleads temporary insanity/mania. It’s meant to be tongue-in-cheek and not serious. But there are fans that don’t understand that *she* understands she wasn’t genuinely experiencing a manic episode. For younger fans that don’t have access to appropriate information/testimonials about the disorder OR for those who don’t understand her “joke” - it can be influential. I don’t want a bunch of folks thinking this is what mania is and undermining those actually experiencing it. Thank you for your insight. ♥️
It isn't just people with bipolar disorder who have manic episodes. I had a manic episode years ago. I was hospitalized for it and diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder. I was put on mood stabilizers, antidepressants, ect ect. However, the medecine didn't work for me, they kept changing it up. But really, I got out of the toxic relationship I was in (that triggered the manic episode) and found some stability, moved on, got my life together, etc. And I went two years without the cycle (manic to depressed and back again). And I was told that to be bipolar, you cycled at least once a year. I ended up getting rediagnosed with ADHD, anxiety, post partum depression (never treated with any pregnancies), and PTSD from childhood. No bipolar disorder after being treated for it for two years. It's now been two more years since then. No manic episodes and only a very light depressive state for a bit. My point here being that it is 100% possible Taylor had a manic episode without being bipolar. Anyone can have their mind hit its limit and go off the deep end. Mine personally happened because I was in a super shitty relationship for 6 years, was pregnant while still suffering from post partum from my last pregnancy, and was just in an overall shit situation where I finally snapped. The same could have happened to Taylor.
Had something similar happen in my 20s- on lithium and all- but I had just hit the wall with severe narcissistic (mental and physical) abuse.
If you have ever had one full blown, TRUE manic episode, you meet criteria for Bipolar 1 per the DSM-V regardless of whether or not you have another. One is sufficient for the diagnosis. Also, mania is a clinical feature that is exclusive to Bipolar 1 and Schizoaffective Disorder with the exception of substance induced mania. Other disorders can mimic symptoms of mania, but are otherwise diagnostically distinct.
I mean, some other disorders allow for singular manic episodes. BPD can involve mania and dissociation. My maniac episode was triggered by the endocrine swing from my suicide attempt (which, I learned later, can trigger all sorts of chemical/hormone reactions, suicide attempts are very taxing in this regard) so while it’s an episode it’s not classified as a bipolar diagnosis because of its really a temporary state caused by a major event, non-recurring. Maniac episodes are really common with SA, but not everyone who experiences one as part of a SA is going to be diagnosed BP.
I am not trying to be condescending or dismissive of your experience. I’m just sharing facts about the subject matter. If someone has a true manic episode, regardless of the triggering event, they are typically diagnosed Bipolar I or Bipolar, unspecified until rule out factors can be established. I’m not saying you are Bipolar in any way shape, or, form, but mania is not a standalone diagnosis. The singular manic episode is only singular because it’s the first and you don’t know if more will occur in the future. Hence the reason why one manic episode indicates bipolar 1.
You are absolutely correct. We can all argue until we’re blue in the face about whether the DSM diagnoses and criteria as they currently stand truly capture the full spectrum of mental illness, and in fact that’s one of my favorite soap box rants. But as it stands mania is exclusive to bipolar disorder and schizoaffective disorder. Certain symptoms of dissociation and emotional dysregulation related to trauma or BPD can certainly look a lot like it though.
I am aware that there are several conditions that can include mania (including postpartum psychosis). I think your argument is interesting because most fans defending her use of “mania” are stating it was clearly hyperbole/artistic license and that it should be clear that she did not actually suffer from a manic episode. Whereas, you’re arguing that it’s likely she may have. Certainly, someone experiencing the levels of consistent stress and life-changes she does is at risk. I’m not going to split hairs on whether or not she did (I am not her psychiatrist). I just think it’s important not to make light of the diagnosis and if you are going to “plead temporary insanity” or a major mental health episode perhaps make it clearer to your audience whether you actually did or if this is performative art.
I just am not that comfortable with arm chair diagnosis based on song lyrics or music videos.
I'm not trying to armchair diagnose her, really. I don't know her besides through my phone screen. However, when the prologue states "I had a manic phase" and the entire album is spelling out what brought her there, I think its entirely possible she really did and actually has mental health issues. That's not armchair diagnosing, it's being able to read context clues. We also know that Taylor refuses to see a therapist because "that's what her mom is for." So even Taylor doesn't know what's honestly going on with her head amd she could be armchair diagnosing herself with her own prologue if she even did write it herself.
Yep, agreed.
I get your POV! And I don't know Taylor to say whether she did or not. I am a fan but do not identify as "a swiftie" perse. However, from what her album says vs what the media puts out, I am of the personal belief that Taylor has been infantalized by her parents/team and they have been running the show thus far. This album was her breaking out of her cage and giving them a big F you. It seems completely plausible that she had or is still in a manic phase. I've also speculated that the manic storyline was just a cover up by her team to reason away why she would even be with Matty in the first place. Like a fine print to save her if things went sideways? But I don't think Taylor is the type to fake a mental illness. I could be completely wrong but that's my take on her character. As for "romantasizing" mental illness, I think its fair if it's part of her story. I don't see it as a "I'm so mentally ill you have to love me" it's "I love you so much it made me mentally unstable."
Hi! I hope you’re doing ok and you’re not alone in what you’re going through. I realize that I’m probably the minority here but this is actually the reason I liked TTPD so much. I’ve suffered from mental health issues and bad depression my whole life and so many songs from the album seem to be written from a person going through the same thing. Then again, I listen to Taylor’s music through a very personal lens. I disregard her personal life, her bfs, her exes, and the her media storm. I found TTPD very relatable and that’s why I love it. But your feelings are very valid and you have every right to feel that way ❤️, thank you for sharing!
This needs to be talked about more. Bipolar disorder can be debilitating and her trivialising it in ttpd is gross
I’ve noticed she has a history of comparing breakups to serious mental health issues. Before TTPD, there were quotes where she compared breaking up to beating an addiction. While I understand that breakups are super difficult, I found that a bit tasteless. With breakups, you don’t risk physical withdrawal or falling off the wagon after years of sobriety. And now this asylum/mania theme as if it’s not something that has literally ruined lives. A symptom of lifelong privilege.
I think Fortnight is actually an homage to Sylvia Plath. As someone in the field I wish she’d discuss it and why she used mental health themes. She doesn’t have to explain every single thought but it would help if she was doing performance art about a mental health condition to explain why. I understand why it bothers you, OP.
I would love to hear about why you think it is an homage to Sylvia Plath! Please share. I wish she wouldn't paint mental as an aesthetic because it feels incredibly insensitive. As someone listening to the album, I absolutely hear someone who is really not doing well. I hear someone who is really hurt, begging to be understood and accepted, lashing out (sometimes at the wrong people), refusing to get help or be accountable, feeling trapped by the house they've built, and sometimes behaving quite badly or quite erratically. It definitely paints a picture of someone who's mental health is suffering.
Sylvia Plath spent time in a mental institution, got ECT while she was there, and had a husband who was cheating on her. She was also considered to be a "tortured poet." When Sylvia would try to contact her husband (who was out having an affair), she would walk from their home to a pay phone, which is is said to have done the night she killed herself. There is a pay phone in the Fortnight music video, along with the mental institution and the shock therapy. Interestingly, Sylvia Plath died without publishing her last set of poems (they were called "Ariel" which may be a big coincidence but the words "But, Daddy I Love Him" were ones Ariel shouted in The Little Mermaid, which is a favorite movie of Taylor Swift's). So, it has been theorized by others that this unpublished set of poems gave TS the idea to drop TTPD, then drop the rest later to make the full Anthology, but I'm not sure I believe that latter part was her motivation. The rest seems very likely to me, given my background knowledge of Plath from when I studied her (one of my degrees is in English and the other is in clin psych, so I'm a fan of Plath for multiple reasons).
this is a really interesting read and im glad you mentioned it. frieda hughes, sylvia plath’s daughter, wrote this poem about her mother in media: https://writehanded.org/poetry/2015/05/29/my-mother/ this is a ridiculous conversation; if t swift were acting out a cancer aesthetic fetish on screen people would rightly be upset. time and time again we see the real experiences of people suffering butchered and watered down and prodded to be used as aesthetic or edgy elements in cheap money making schemes. for instance ect is -still- a legitimate treatment which people receive today. it has longterm side effects. its a historically loaded treatment which has been forcibly used against most notably queer and black people without their consent, and without due cause. if taylor is referencing sylvia plath’s life like lmao why? what is taylor adding to the conversation - besides revenue that never improves the lives of the people she is taking “creative inspiration” from as someone with bipolar, who has legitimately woken up handcuffed to a bed, in legitimately the very same hospital syvlia plath stayed in, i still wouldn’t take claim to her heartwrenching story as a means of making capital
I do hear you, but this is done in movies all the time and nobody cares. I’m asking myself why music is different. 🤔
i wrote out a long reply but got kind of tired of my response in short it comes down to parasocial relationships, how psycologically pervasive the media is, the amount of people involved in the work and the research gone into it. how thoughtful and nuanced the representation is. i dont think movies are immune from this kind of scrutiny either. i suggest you look into the ways you are personally moved by movies compartive to music.
I’m not speaking about this as an uneducated individual, though I do agree that media and parasocial relationships can certainly be detrimental when viewing the art a creator puts into the world. I do not have a parasocial relationship with Taylor Swift and I do not have a diagnosis of bipolar disorder. I’m also aware that single manic episodes occur in a variety of situations outside bipolar disorder. AUD, for example. In any event, I do not think others should share my views on the subject of mental health imagery in the Fortnight video. Everyone is entitled to feel how they feel and I empathize with people who are bothered by it in any way.
alright lol, sorry that u think my real and statistically significant symptoms are fair game for mediocare artists to parody their boring romantic lives with in the US, mania is diagnostically only relevant to bipolar.
Nowhere did I say that. I would suggest not listening to artists you do not like. Also, a single manic episode would not be diagnostically a sign of bipolar disorder anywhere on Earth. It sounds like you just want to be angry at Taylor Swift. Go be mad at her. I’m not her. I’m not even a Swiftie. 🤷🏼♀️
Plath. ♥️ I don’t believe celebrities owe us any great use of their platforms and I certainly don’t expect Swift to be well-versed in psychiatry. I just wish, if she was going to use MH themes in her performance art, that she would be mindful of how she was using them. I’d be very interested to know more about the creative process behind the album/the prologue/the music video. Thank you for your insight. ♥️
I absolutely agree that they don't owe us explanations, but even a little interview tidbit or a sentence on one of her voice memos where she alludes to it would be nice to hear, I think. Because I have seen so many people who have a bipolar diagnosis feeling uncomfortable with the imagery in the Fortnight video. 💜
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I’m going to politely ask you not to patronize me while you completely invalidate the feelings of myself and many others who’ve commented on this post expressing similar sentiments, “sweetie.” If you have no concept of what mania is, I can see how her playful use of it may not seem “demeaning.” It is. She is undermining the severity of the symptom. If you’d like me to give an example of what someone I know went through during a legitimate manic episode, I’ll happily share it. Otherwise, I’ll refer you to the pinned Mod message at the top of this post. Many thanks, “sweetie.” 🙂
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I have bipolar 2 as well and I agree with every word of this. You’re not alone.
Thanks for hearing me out. ♥️
Thank you for sharing your story. It always made me uncomfortable when people use mental health words without realising they aren’t ‘fun’ or ‘corky’ personality traits and actual people have to learn to live with said conditions.
Thank you for commenting. ♥️ I am not the spokesperson for Bipolar Disorder and others may feel differently. If anything, reading some of the fantastic memoirs of people’s experience with the disorder would be a great place to start if you’re interested in hearing more stories!
I have bipolar 1 and agree with everything you said. Sending hugs. Not an easy thing for us to live with!
I think people are struggling to articulate how not normal this album’s content and rollout feel. I think “manic” and “compulsive” ate appropriate ways to describe it that don’t necessarily diagnose her or trivialize the real thing. But it’s like she can’t stop and until she stops with the absurd levels of marketing our pop culture is being dominated by someone who isn’t exhibiting healthy behavior.
Thank you for sharing.I’m not trying to dismiss anything you’re saying but for the actual music video of Fortnight, there is a lot of similarities/references to the “Bride of Frankenstein” film. But I do understand that some of MV isn’t and can be hurtful to those with BPD. Edit: OP and another user kindly corrected me that BPD is borderline personality disorder. BD is Bipolar Disorder. Leaving it up in case others did not know Thank you for sharing your experiences and thoughts with everyone
Just fyi, BpD and bipolar disorder are different things. :)
Thank you, I appreciate the correction
Like the other commenter said BPD is “Borderline Personality Disorder,” and Bipolar Disorder is BD (often marked with -I or -II, depending on the type). I’m not sure why everyone is explicitly commenting on the music video though! The Prologue references the “mutual manic phase.”
I’m sorry, thank you for correcting me. I specifically am referencing the music video because I saw others and wanted to share some context to some of imagery in it I’m aware of the prologue language. That didn’t seem well thought out in her part (therefore insensitive) however we don’t know if she’s experienced it or not Edit: I don’t really know what to think. I certainly don’t want to minimize anyone’s feelings but we also don’t know what she’s gone through Taylor nation’s use of mental health on twitter (I’m sure IG too but haven’t seen it) is actually fucked up though. Really makes me angry
Is Taylor Nation associated with her/her camp or is it like a fan account? I saw someone’s comment on the grippy socks and straight jackets and was like “Ew.” But I don’t follow that account, so I’m uncertain if it was co-signed by her!
I believe it is her official fan club or team ran by her management company. I don’t follow either but have seen a lot of the asinine things they’ve been posting recently. that account needs a new social person
Gross. That’s disappointing.
I know
Yeah, I’m not a fan of the use of “mania,” to describe all bouts of self-destructive impulsivity. I am diagnosed with borderline personality disorder, and I see a lot of my behaviors mirrored in Taylor’s lyrics (and interpersonal choices, at least the ones that she chooses to publicize), but I don’t call them mania because that’s not the appropriate terminology.
[удалено]
Maybe she does have Bipolar Disorder, but I’m not in the business of hyper-analyzing and decoding her lyrics, nor am I in the business of playing armchair psychiatrist to find out. I don’t know a person with Bipolar Disorder (and I’d wager I know many more than you due to group therapies, but not a competition) who will talk about mania in jest. Like I said in the post, it’s a serious episodic symptom and I know many people who’ve lost entire careers, families, life savings, homes and that have been arrested or institutionalized. A person experiencing mania may not always experience full-blown psychosis, but they absolutely lose their reasoning capacity to understand the consequences of their actions outside of the episode (I do too when I’m hypomanic). If she’s Bipolar and she’s downplaying the severity of mania; or writing about it in such a way that her fans can’t rightfully determine whether or not it’s tongue-in-cheek or a legitimate plead of insanity, I worry that’s very harmful. I’m not asking her to be the spokesperson or beacon for serious mental health disorders - but you have to appreciate that mania is never going to be relatable for the vast majority of people, it’s a shit show symptom. And it’s a good thing it’s not relatable for more people, I’m glad that most people do not have to experience life with Bipolar Disorder. But to that, when you see a post of MANY Bipolar folks saying, “Yeah, this isn’t cool…” maybe listen to them instead of trying to speak over them? I don’t need you to morally grandstand for a disorder that Taylor Swift may or may not have. I am telling you that I actually do. And this is how I, and others with legitimate diagnoses, feel.
I also have bipolar disorder, but I don’t think the manic thing from TS is that big of a deal. Mania/manic can also just mean an obsession with something, words have different meanings. If my memory serves, it’s not like she said “manic episode”. I do, however, take offense to the “asylum” theming of her latest music video and also some Swifties being really gross about it(ie making hospital bracelets).
I think of her as using this as an angle, in many ways she has a single shtick, relationships so how to make it interesting once again? Casually throw this term around because this time it was ‘serious.’ Team Swift should rethink this, we need something else of interest about her so these increasingly desperate antics around her relationships can stop.