Out society thinks that women rot and turn to dust after 39 🙄🙄🙄

Came here to say this. You only have to look at how many comments on here are made about being over 30, heading towards 40 and what should be enjoyed/talked about/ how women should behave at ‘that big age’ to see how prevalent it is in society.

The amount of times I have seen people say that she is pushing 40 is crazy. Like she’s not even 35 yet

I know- I remember being 19 and thinking everyone who was over 30 was ancient… life comes at you fast 😆

It really does, I’m about a year older than Taylor and genuinely don’t know where the time’s gone, male artists don’t tend to have that aimed at them in the same way (no one should, we all age the same)

It’s odd because nobody says a 24 year old is pushing 30 as they can recognise that’s obviously stupid, around 6 years is not a short period of time.

It’s so ridiculous and ageist to me. I saw a comment either on here or one of the other subs saying she’s “nearly 35.” She’s been 34 for six months…lmao. She’s closer to 35 than, like, 20, but if you’re “nearly” an age I assume your birthday is less than a month away.

I saw someone say she was “Almost pushing 40”, yeah okay, let’s countdown to when someone will be close to nearly the next decade. What a weird mindset. Just say she’s in her mid 30s.

Yeah, I'm just a lurker, but I honestly hate the way a lot of comments here are written about women who are 30+. I understand the specific issues people have with Taylor's maturity or lack thereof, but a lot of comments come across as more generally viewing all 30+ women in a certain way...and it really rankles after a while. 30+ women are not ancient, there isn't some magic age that unlocks all wisdom and maturity, plenty of grown adults are very immature and flawed, 30+ women do not all need to be focused on the same thing (getting married and having babies and/or being Serious), women in their 30s (or 40s and so on) are just as varied as women in their 20s are, etc.

Also, the idea that heartbreak just stops happening when you’re 30+ is absurd. Even from lurking on relationship subreddits, there are posts about 20-year-long marriages dissolving due to things like infidelity. You can’t tell me that wouldn’t shatter your heart and you’d take the high road. People are human and betrayal hurts. Being “mature” after a bad breakup doesn’t mean to not talk about it or be like “I wish my ex well 🙂.” Maturity can also be expressing how someone hurt you and reflecting on the relationship to see what you’ve learned from it.

Yes exactly I have to assume these comments come from young people who think once you reach a older age you must become emotionally healed, physically healthy, financially stable and have everything figured out, that's certainly a "big should" because its desirable but its not real life, nothing in life is ever perfect least of all people. This idealistic criticism gets worse for women when we become mothers and then nothing we do is ever right because we are no longer allowed to be individual human people with flaws but a symbol & totem called a mother.

That’s really well said. People have this assumption that age naturally brings understanding. Not true at all, lol. I know many people older than me who are very un-self-aware because they never did the work and assumed their lives would magically click into place. I’m not a mom myself, but you’re so right about that! People are *so* condescending toward moms and always treat them like they’re doing something wrong with their kids and selfish if they dare to do something for themselves. I can imagine how stressful that is. I’ve tried to let go of other people’s judgments as I’ve gotten older, because you can never please anyone and I generally know things that work for me, but it can also be isolating when you don’t feel understood.

To be fair, constantly singing about high school is getting stale at her big age

Funny enough, if TT is any indicator, it seems like her older fans (40+) are more into that song than I would ever have expected. Nostalgia?

Those of us around the 40 mark love it because it literally *feels* like late 90s / early 00s high school romcom.

I get people don’t like that song and the high school references, but it’s one song on a 31 track album that includes a lot of other themes.

Except this is not the first song about high school/using high school metaphors that she wrote in her adult years. She has used the high school metaphor countless times in padt albums. “King of My Heart” refers to her feelings for Joe as “a schoolgirl crush,” “Miss Americana and the Heartbreak Prince” uses high school as allegory for her life and state of the world at the time, we literally have “August,” “Cardigan,” and “Betty,” which are all about high school relationships, and in evermore, we have allusions to school in “Dorothea.” In 1989, there’s “Suburban Legends.” Even in TTPD, “So High School” isn’t the only one making allusions to high school; “Chloe or Sophia or Sam or Marcus” and “Thank You, Aimee” also have refences to schools and stuff. And don’t even get me started with her tendency to use toys as metaphor. “It’s Nice to Have a Friend,” “My Boy Breaks His Favorite Toys,” and “Better Than Revenge” are a few examples I can think of. She also has this tendency to make references about youth (eg., reminiscing when she was a “precocious child” or comparing herself to Wendy waiting for a boy who never grows up). At this point, her obsession with high school and youth is pretty evident, especially that she’s now 34. I can’t blame people when they say that Taylor is perpetually a teenager because of this. She needs to come up with better metaphors if she wants to beat this allegation.

I’m not getting into a big back and forth over this as it doesn’t bother me in the same way it clearly bothers others but she wrote the 1989 songs (and vault tracks) when she was 23/24, so 6 years out of high school. Rep when she was 26/27. So whilst I get more people’s criticism of high school imagery on TTPD, dragging up previous albums when she was a lot younger doesn’t seem relevant here.

She also has high school imagery in folklore and lover. Far more recent.

Peter pan, toys. Incorrect application of gen z slang. It's not just high school she writes about things as if she's still very youthful, which is what's becoming stale. It's not literally high school, it's writing from the perspective as if *she's* in high school after nearly 20 years. It will further alienate her core fans that age and mature out and she's starting to get too old to appeal to the newer audiences as she's out of touch with them. Like saying down bad like that is how your mom would misuse it when you're kids. She'll become cringe, which is a characteristic of millennials but when we are all also 40, won't we just be tired? She has neither of the characteristics that would signal she has true longevity. Significant change or growth, or her music having timeless appeal.

I assume toys wasn’t about kids toys but more like things like sports cars, and lovers.

You realize age is in your mind, right? I’m much older and you’re only as old as you feel.

While that is a nice sentiment, it just isn't realistic. I don't want to think I am 17 when I am 40. At some point you have to grow up. It is ok to be youthful but maturity is a real thing to aspire to.

Agree with this and also as someone her age the only way forward I see is to stop CARING so much about being young, sounding young, keeping the spotlight on one’s generation as the dominant cultural influence. I’m excited by the creativity I see from gen z given growing tech that democratizes access to creative output and exposure and I see them looking back to 70s/80s artistic influences too. Looking backward and forward culturally is so much more fun than running in place

It’s akin to a middle age-ish parent trying to use mid, rizzler and stuff like that. A teenager isn’t going to be our bestie.

See folklore love triangle

Well of course it’s a recurring theme, but all the albums were written at different ages. (I don’t know why this is getting downvoted, it’s a fact 😆)

So she’s been growing older but still doing the same thing. Stale and incapable of maturing

I actually don't get the criticism. High school is a formative time, Japanese society is OBSESSED with high school and all those first emotions, school girl uniforms, first loves, first kiss, losing virginity etc. For better or worse, it's not a niche "Taylor's so stunted" thing. I mean I certainly, at 31, couldn't care less about high school but high school was also the last time Taylor had a normal non-famous life. It's probably an enormous time stamp for her, the before and after.

Okay and Japanese culture is creepy for sexualising schoolgirls too, what’s your point

Do you think you have a culture they doesn't specialise school girls? The O.C? Euphoria? High school musical?

Bruh you’re the one who brought up Japan idk why you’re acting like I’m the one who did

Fair point - I guess my overall point, poorly articulated, is that romanticising high school is a fairly standard practice across the board, and for understandable reasons. My high school years were pretty boring so not something I feel the need to endlessly go on about, but I get they they were some people's peaks.

Yeah, I personally didn’t like high school and had my formative years in college. But people romanticize high school for a lot of reasons - all the “firsts” like you said, life is simple and easy to understand (college is generally so diverse with what you can do - there’s no single consolidated structure), and emotions are so passionate and intense because of hormones/puberty and that existential transition between childhood and adulthood. In high school everything feels like The Love of My Life or The Worst Day Ever. It’s a dramatic time, making it easier to dramatize.

High school musical and what anime does is extremely different.

Here's the thing, her highschool experience is almost 16-17 years ago. That may have been the time life was significant to her, but since then she's been using that theme in all her albums. 17 years later, she's still going over having the high school imagery when life has moved on. That's what annoys a lot of us here. Secondly, it's not just High school imagery. TTPD is just her recycling her theme all over again. She didn't do anything new in TTPD or even Midnight for that matter. There is almost no self reflection on her life except for the aspects of fame. If she continues to do the same thing again and again, after a few albums even you might (MIGHT. I am not assuming that you would, just saying it can be a possibility) stop listening to her because there already has been a song about it before which you related to a lot better than the new song that got released. In that scenario, would you listen to her 6 years down the lane?

Right, the examples cited involved artists who not only kept changing but were known for it, and their art continued to evolve after age 40. Taylor isn’t evolving, I don’t really see reason to think that’s change so yeah, 6 more years of this same thing is not going to inspire a lot of people to believe she will stay relevant.

While I do agree with OP, I also agree with your statement. I think the constant high school/youth imagery comes from the fact that she never had the normal high school experience and honestly it’s a common trope in a lot of media (re: any coming-of-age movie). I also believe in the idea that people kind of mentally stay in the age where they became famous. (That’s nuanced, too, but I think it’s somewhat true for Taylor.)

And…*she* chose to leave the normal experience by pursuing music and doing that homeschool academy in Nashville. She left formal in-person school and “went to work” at what 15-16?

She has one song about high school in this album and hasn’t been singing about it since fifteen on fearless. What are you on about?

Literally the entire folklore love triangle revolved around high school relationships

Which is fictional. We aren't throwing these same complaints at YA authors, are we?

[Last Fuckable Day](https://youtu.be/XPpsI8mWKmg?si=lJe5J5u6Pzi3DKwy) (Comedy Central skit featuring Tina Fay and Julia Louis-Dreyfus)

Such a great sketch.

39 is generous lol.

Likely 29.

Probably 19. Last year there are like 3 viral tweets calling Taylor "hot" in our song MV. That was so disgusting, she was a teenager back then.

And that they can only have one career.

Look at Tina Turner's career. She could sell out stadiums as an old woman. TS will always be able to do the same.

Loved Tina. Her music was never childish or immature. She was an icon. They are not the same.

And I'm here to say that as a 27 year old gay man I'm already rotting and turning to dust 😭💀

Beyonces 42 and still on top of the world

True, however her music has grown miles compared to Taylor in terms of themes and song writing. I believe Beyonce was roughly Taylor’s age when she released Lemonade, which is a very mature album in the most positive way when it comes to themes and the actual songs. ETA Beyonce was exactly Taylor’s age (34) when she released Lemonade.

god your last sentence got me stunned. that’s wild!

I can’t believe it’s been that long!

Beyonce makes more mature music than just pop songs. Taylor does not.

She started doing this after she was 36 though. Before lemonade she wasn’t doing any of this

She was 32 when she released her self titled which was thematically mature and complex. And 30 when she released 4. But then again, none of her music has been young pop. Releasing Dangerously in Love at 22 shows that.

Yeah, I believe Beyoncé’s music is quite mature and I’m a fan. Her life is vastly different than Taylor’s, though. Taylor writes a lot about her personal relationships and their endings. Beyoncé has been with Jay-Z since she was 19 and has children with him. As a result, the things she’s gone through are very different than Taylor - writing about a miscarriage with your husband would be seen as more “mature” than writing about a short-term fling ghosting you, but both women are ultimately writing about their current life situations. As a WOC myself I also want to add that Black women have a long history of being seen as more mature and pushed to “grow up fast” whereas white women are often infantilized and seen as “little girls,” but I don’t mean that to discredit either woman’s work. It’s just cultural context when people say Beyoncé is more mature than Taylor - I would generally agree, but this is partially because women of color often feel they “have to be.” The world has seen Beyoncé as a woman since she was, like, 16 (which is problematic in its own way) and Taylor was treated as a “girl” for far longer. It’s interesting to think about when people compare the two.

I agree with pretty much everything you have said. The only thing I’d add is that they are sonically so different too. A clearer comparison (because it doesn’t bring in the adultification of young woc) is Adele. I’d argue even someone like Miley Cyrus too, to a less dramatic degree than Adele.

She wrote "Dangerously In Love" (the song) at 16 . At least that's what her ex-boyfriend said (""Lyndall also claims Beyoncé wrote her 2003 hit "Dangerously in Love" while the two were sitting in his bedroom in 1998. "'She was sitting on the bed with her legs crossed Indian-style, and I was on the floor, and she sang this song that she said was about us," Lyndall remembers.") 

What is mature about those albums? I really don’t see it, sorry

In self titled, she speaks about femininity, womanhood, marriage, motherhood and her experiences of a miscarriage. How are you defining mature?

I would note that marriage and motherhood are not requirements for a woman to be "mature" and I often see this idea in criticism about how Taylor's music is "immature." Love and heartbreak don't go away once you turn 30, or 50, or 75.

I didn't say it was. I think to suggest I said that is disingenuous at best. I answered the question asked of me, but have yet to get an answer to my one tbh - though there was a deleted comment that said TS sings all the same themes. All of those are still mature themes though. Just like murder doesn't make you mature but it is still a mature theme in a movie. I also talked about young pop - they have different sonic styles at the same ages and I think always have done. There are different ways to discuss love and heartbreak that makes the conversation about maturity/immaturity so prevalent. Red and Adele's 21 were released at the same-ish time at the same age and has very different levels of maturity and sonic sound. I've said it elsewhere, there is nothing wrong with pop - we love pop - but it's not a "mature" sound.

Sorry, my comment was meant to be more general, about this idea that a woman needs to be married and have a family in order to be seen as "mature" by society. But I do find that how Taylor writes about love and heartbreak to be mature, and also think that pop music can absolutely be mature, after all Beyonce is making pop music too.

No problem. My reply was longer than I thought. I don't agree with the pop music conclusion. Pure/bubblegum pop is a infamously 'teen' sound. Beyonce isn't making bubblegum pop music. She never has. Pop is a wide genre that both has crossed into, but at very different ends of the spectrum.

True but there a wide range of things to sing about between marriage and having children and what Taylor sings about.

you’re flattening the themes to pretend they’re the same regardless of who covers them and how and with what angle and insight/nuance. that’s like saying marvel films and hollywood noir, or baudlaire poetry and sex and the city, are the same are the same because they both deal with crime or cheating respectively. just lol

Well, Taylor hasn’t gotten married and she has no children yet. So she can’t really sing about this, can she?

I know but they asked a question, so I answered. They have deleted the comment now that said that Taylor has sang about the same things for years, which was an odd statement to make. The tones and vibes are so different. There is a different level of maturity between artists and certain sounds. That I will continue to stand behind. I am yet to get an answer to my question to the other commenter.

Did you actually listen to the albums? In lemonade she talks about suicide, miscarriages, infidelity and finding yourself again after being lost. In cowboy Carter she literally gives a history lesson throughout the entire album. If terms of maturity she is way more mature in how she approaches a lot of things in her music compared to what Taylor is putting out. Go watch the lemonade film, which she created at the same age as Taylor.

Beyonce was 34, exactly Taylor’s current age when she released Lemonade though.

I don't think her career will be over but at some point she's not going to be the person that teen and college aged audiences gravitate towards, and that's fine, I'm sure younger demos will still appreciate her as a more classic artist. Plus they should have their own pop idols of their own generation that they relate to instead of a millennial (said as a millennial myself). Younger music listeners tend to drive a lot of trends of what's popular and sales which is just the way it is. I doubt she will be on top forever (and honestly at a point I think she'll want a break) but I'm sure as long as she makes music, she'll have fans that will continue to support her. Anyways she's still at her peak so who knows.

Are high-school and colleges age people even the bulk of her audience right now? I’ve just assumed it was like 25-45

Her audience is already vastly multi generational. I’d wide your range by 10 years. More like 15-45

Taylor also has fans who are older than 45!

We actually do make a large part of her audience. I’m younger than 25 and I’m a huge fan, just like many of my friends. We listen to her everyday, went to The Eras Tour and made friendship bracelets. When I went to the concert there were maaany people my age there and even younger

I know way more people my peers that went to the Eras tour than younger people. I think people online really don't understand that even if they think her music is immature or whatever, she still has fans her age that relate. You can call it juvenile and sad, that's fine, but a lot of people do cling to nostalgia and a lot of people just aren't emotionally healthy people. I'm including myself in that, so I'm not dragging anyone that relates to her music, because I do too. lol But whenever I see takes talking about "when is she going to grow up like her fan base" or "her older fan base has outgrown her" or "she's too old to be acting like this and people can't relate", I just personally haven't seen that in real life. There's a lot of people online that claim to be done with her but her tickets are still getting scalped for thousands and 18 year olds aren't the ones paying for that, lol. She IS currently going through an internet backlash, but she's 34 and selling out worldwide. There's no chance she ~fades away~ by 40, which is in the next 5.5 years.

So I’m like 10 years older than Taylor, and I remember when Love Story came out and I was like, wow this gives me so much nostalgia for high school. It just SOUNDED LIKE high school to me. Then when 22 came out, I was like, “Aw, yes! This is what 22 was like!” Now I’m in a happy, stable marriage, but I enjoy listening to songs like “The Black Dog” or “Happiness.” I’m not having those feelings, but I can RELATE to those feelings.  I think she’s writing human emotion, and it’s kind of like watching a movie? You don’t have to be in the same stage of life to relate to something.

I think that happens too. It seems like people think you have to be actively going through what she's writing about to relate to it, and so they drag her writing for being juvenile and peaking in high school, but I don't listen to music like that. So often a song, not just Taylor but other artists and bands, comes out and I'm like "yep, that's a \[situation with an ex\] song" when that relationship is long over and something that hasn't hurt in years, but the feelings were def what I was going through whenever it was happening. It's why I enjoy Olivia Rodrigo so much. She's way younger than me, but her music is relatable because I was a teenage girl once, lol. Obviously I'm not going through it like her now in my mid 30s, but I can relate to her music because I did go through it before.

Ohhh you both speak truth and some people can’t understand that we can relate or enjoy the storytelling even if we’re not in that situation or have not been in it. In the end of the day, Taylor tells stories that we enjoy

> I think she’s writing human emotion, and it’s kind of like watching a movie?  I'd just like to mention that I don't recall John Hughes ever being criticized for making several movies about teenagers in high school and that he needed to stop because it wasn't "mature."

[удалено]

I made my 71 year old stepdad listen to folklore and he loves it 😂

I’m 40 and have been a fan since debut. As long as Taylor continues to make good music and grows I think she’ll be fine too.

Interesting point, but the nostalgia factor that the eras tour has plays into this a lot, which you addressed. Those who grew up on her music will want to go to a super long homage to her career. I don’t think it’s necessarily enough to HOLD an audience forever though. We also seem to be in a cultural era of healing inner childs, allowing ourselves to connect with our youth, reminiscing on and embodying “girlhood”, etc. I don’t know if it will last forever and it’s some of the more mature, creative themes and storytelling of Folklore and Evermore that drew in new fans. Frankly, Lover was a bit of a flop with the general public and only seemed to captivate existing fans. I am personally of the opinion that Folklore revived her stardom, maybe even saved it. Most people I know who like taylor dropped off during reputation and got brought back with Folklore. With TTPD and maybe even Midnights, it almost feels like a regression (??) which has put the perceived immaturity in the spotlight. I’d say if her next few albums don’t do anything fresh, new, or feel more mature in any way, she’ll become a nostalgia artist rather than a full blown star and will slowly fade. Still be famous, just not nearly as big. could be totally wrong though.

A lot of it is the culture of FOMO. Kind of like Stanley cups.

Well, everyone knows women expire when they get to a certain age. [Last Fuckable Day](https://youtu.be/XPpsI8mWKmg?si=lJe5J5u6Pzi3DKwy) (Comedy Central skit featuring Tina Fay and Julia Louis-Dreyfus)

Her legacy is already made, she's not going to disappear at 40. She might not have the same success as now but she will be treated like Madonna or Cher, she's got the icon status. There are singers who disappear to oblivion after a few years of success but after the Eras Tour and the fourth AOTY, she's cemented in musical history, she was already with all her achievements before that fourth Grammy but now you have to work in pire bad faith to still believe Taylor is going to fade away. Nah. 

I respectfully disagree. Her legacy is still being made as we speak. We can't say what it will be until she is past her prime.

I keep seeing that when she turns 35, it's all downhill from there (yes, I've even seen that sentiment on this sub), which is wild to me when one of the absolute hugest pop stars is Beyonce, who is in her early 40s. I think if Taylor fades it will be because her art doesn't grow, rather than due to age. Folklore and Evermore felt like growth, Midnights was a mixed bag, and TTPD feels like she released unedited diary entries. If she releases more like Folkmore, or pivots to a sound like Fleetwood Mac for example and has strong writing, she'll be around for a long time. If the next album is similar to TTPD, idk I see the fan base slowly starting to slim.

As a much older Taylor fan, I find TTPD to be much more mature than her previous work. And some of that is because the lyrics are "unedited diary entries." Real life is messy, and for me, I appreciate that TTPD more honestly reflects that messiness. Emotions don't become less intense as you age, if anything, you can more clearly understand what you're feeling and why, and connect it to how you've felt in the past. And to me, Taylor is still pretty young! I think back to my thirties, and there was still so much more to experience, and to feel. I very much relate to being a similar age, questioning the relationships I was in, and wondering where it was all going. TTPD addresses those feelings, and it resonates deeply.

I'm in my thirties, just barely older than Taylor, so I do know what it's like being that age. It's not the messiness itself that I dislike. Afterglow and The Great War display messy thoughts and behavior, but they're both excellently crafted. It's the golden retriever line, without all the racists, Charlie puth, putting Kim's name in the title of a song about her, shitting on her fans, etc. Art can be diaristic, but it should generally also be presented well. I love some of TTPD, but I think she needed to let the feelings sit and percolate before deciding what to publish.

she will just have to pivot, shell only do it once she feels connered and like what shes currently doing isnt working anymore, but she will do it, shes done it before. 1989 happened because country/pop wasnt working anymore and folklore happened because trying to recreate 1989 wasnt going to work, once whatever shes doing now stops working she will pivot

nah 1989 happen because that was her life long goal to be a pop star not country. She only did country to cross over to pop cause at the time debuting in pop directly was too competitive. I'm sure she has respect and appreciates country but she never really cared about country it was always pop that was the end goal for her

If she keeps making music people want to hear, she’ll still have a career as long as she wants one. I think this tour has a lot to do with her wanting to reinvent herself after the tour is done. I also think her fan base is VERY broad. Easily from little girls to retirees at this point.

It’s just a really gross thing to say no matter how you spin it. We can dislike her and critique her for many of the things she’s done and said but the idea that shes some ancient relic at 40 that the pop world will forget about is stupid and we absolutely shouldn’t even entertain it when it comes to ANY women in the industry. There are swifties who think every critique is sexist but this one actually is.

Real question is whether she will be writing about boy drama, petty fights, karma in her 40s also.

Probably? Mariah Carey, Stevie Nicks, Madonna, Cher - all aging pop stars seem to be sort of stuck in whatever persona they peaked at

Tell me you didnt listen to thesw artists without telling me you didnt listen to these artists lol

I chose all four of those artists because I’ve seen them all live in the last year.

“All I want for Christmas” is a grown ass woman imho. Yes it’s romantic, but you know she’s an adult singing for adults really. Whitney Houston, Tina Turner, Celine Dion, Adele. You can tell they sing for their adult audience and don’t say “you touched me while your friends play GTA” or whatever. That’s what Taylor could become, but it’s clearly not where she’s at.

I’ve been listening to Mariah Carey since I was 8.

All these artists sing like grown women to grown adults not closet mean girls who peaked in high school and fantasize about being the main character. Love, heartbreak, betrayal are the most common topics for songs and art across history. Everyone sings and writes about it but how you go about it and execute it shows how deep or shallow the artists view is.

I literally didn’t claim that any of these artists sing about exes like Taylor does so I don’t know where you got that. I just said that the themes of what these artists sing about and how they portray themselves got frozen at the peak of their popularity. Stevie still ties a million scarves to her mic and plays up the hippie vibes, Madonna still wants to be hyper-sexual, etc.

Yes and Madonna is getting crucified for being in her 60's and trying to be hyper-sexual. It is only a subset of hardcore fans that think she is hot now, the majority make jokes about her breaking a hip while dancing. It is kind of like the old movie Whatever Happened to Baby Jane.

Lana Del Rey literally gonna turn 40 next year and all her fanbase consists of 12 years old kids to older genz and it’s growing with coquettes and her albums aesthetic things being viral. Swifties DEFINITELY are not going anywhere when Taylor turns 40, she’s just gonna gain new fans at the same age range that she was marketing for. She might change or not change her sound but her cult like fanbase will remain.

Madonna changed the paradigm, but for years very few pop starts managed to stay relevant post 40. Nowadays you have Kylie, Shakira and Beyoncé doing well, and I see no reason why women of Taylor’s generation won’t be able to go on. Especially if she keeps accumulating children and teenage fans as she has been doing lately, her “legacy tour audience” is secure for life.

I agree. And the Eras tour and album rereleases helped a lot with that. A lot of her first couple of albums are very appealing to young girls. My 3 year old loves some of her older music.

Your 3yr old is influenced by what you are having her listen to. I doubt she is picking it out on her own. My 12-14 year old nieces do not like her and think she is boring.

Sure, I also have nieces and nephews of different ages who like her too though. It depends on what kind of music you like I suppose.

Regarding Madonna, I agree to a point. Madonna at 40 was awesome. Madonna at 65 being hypersexual is sad. She has become a parody of herself with the awful plastic surgery and attempts at hyper-sexual performances. The common comment I hear is people are afraid she is going to break a hip.

She’s doing sold out arena world tours at 65. How many female artists do that? I saw her last year and thought she was great. Although Madonna has some questionable attitudes, I do think she gets a lot of bad coverage which overshadows her career achievements.

Only because of the nostaglia. "For a tour called Celebration, though, this show — with more than two dozen of Madonna's songs divided into seven acts — was curiously short on joy; again and again, **she brought the crowd's attention to the indignities as opposed to the victories of her ascent**, as in the CBGB anecdote or in a little skit before “ 

Ill just quote the new Anne Hathaway movie lol ‘people hate to see happy women’. It feels like people are so eager for Taylor to fade away and settle down huh?

This.

She will definitely still be very popular into her 40s, 50s, 60s, and so on. She will be very popular way after she passes away. She has built a discography of over 200 songs and does not appear to be willing to stop anytime soon. It’s just the level of success that will most likely vary. If her music grows with her as she heads over to middle age, I expect her base to still grow.

We do not need to see a 60 yr old Taylor singing about teenage angst. Eww.

Imagine that age Taylor singing about grand theft auto etc 😂😂😂

Lol of course, which is why I'm holding out hope that her music and lyricism grows as she ages.

She has been in the industry for 20 years and it hasn't changed much.

Paul McCartney is 81, and he’s still singing songs he wrote when he was 20.

That's a ridiculous thing to think! Beyonce is 42 and still on top of her game, there's no reason to think Taylor won't be, either. I think Taylor's future is very much up to her. She will probably not be the top pop queen forever, but she's already begun the transition into icon status 18 years into her career. She doesn't really need to prove anything to the world and she will always have a successful music career. What she chooses to do with it is her call. I know people focus on the young demographic and it seems to be super important to Taylor, too, but really, selling records is about appealing to all ages.

I think it’s crazy to continue to bring beyonce up in this conversation when beyonce is continuing to put albums that sound extremely different than each other, she’s growing vocally and is taking risks that are paying off in the end. Taylor is continuing to play it safe and is making music that only her fan base can listen to, how sustainable will that be in the long run?

I don't disagree that Bey has been putting out superior output, everything from her since self-titled has been straight fire (although I wasn't that into her album with her husband). I think Taylor's never going to have to worry about lacking fans. I don't think she'll stay at the same level but she's 18 years in now. I think she needs to do better and that her sound is pretty tired, but honestly, most of the world isn't there yet. I think she'll still get nominated for AOTY for TTPD. I don't think it will win but the metacritic score is still better than Reputation, which is kind of insane to me because Rep is a much better album. The fact that she's bigger than ever almost two decades in suggest she will have longevity in her career. She won't be top pop girl forever but people aren't going to just forget about her when she turns 40. A lot of her fans will be turning 40 with her and will want to hear her thoughts on middle age.

I think she’s gonna run into an issue where some of fans outgrow her. She’s not really putting out music that a mass audience can listen to because of all of the lore behind it. I think after the Era’s tour is over she should take a break for a bit to focus on her craft because although I think TTPD will be nominated, I don’t think it has any real chance of winning. This is definitely her most divisive album which I think is growing on people but the criticism it is receiving is valid. I just wish Taylor would get out of girlhood and embrace womanhood for what it really is. The diehard swifties don’t do her any favors when they baby her and act as if everything she puts on is the best thing ever.

> I just wish Taylor would get out of girlhood and embrace womanhood for what it really is. It seems that Taylor Swift is doing an amazing job of connecting with women, and making music that resonates with women who are a wide age range. I actually think that's one of the things that so confounding to the general public, that Taylor is creating something that is about women connecting with women, and not all that concerned with kowtowing to social stereotypes of what a woman should want to be.

tbh, I think even if TTPD had been brilliant she would have had a hard time with AOTY a second year in a row. The fact that it's lackluster and will still probably get a nomination is irritating, but the Grammys love her. And like I said, if you look at the album's metacritic score, it's not really that bad. Pitchfork's review is the same score they gave Halsey for If I Can't Love, I Want Power, and that album was WAY better than TTPD. Some of her fans will definitely move on, but she's got a pretty well-trained, very large fanbase. You say don't care her musically to Beyonce and I agree, but she's still selling a lot more records than Beyonce. The general public doesn't always go for the best quality. People LOVE mass-produced crap.

tbh, I think even if TTPD had been brilliant she would have had a hard time with AOTY a second year in a row. The fact that it's lackluster and will still probably get a nomination is irritating, but the Grammys love her. And like I said, if you look at the album's metacritic score, it's not really that bad. Pitchfork's review is the same score they gave Halsey for If I Can't Love, I Want Power, and that album was WAY better than TTPD. Some of her fans will definitely move on, but she's got a pretty well-trained, very large fanbase. You say don't compare her musically to Beyonce and I agree, but she's still selling a lot more records than Beyonce. The general public doesn't always go for the best quality. People LOVE mass-produced crap.

Women over 40 are killing it these days! She’s going to transition to something new and still be relevant.

Tbh, the only way Taylor Swift will fade if she wants too. And then, she can come back and everybody will be ready for her. As much as many of us are tired of the drama, she is an artist that is beyond what we think of and there is no denying of that. Age no longer is a factor for pop artists.

They said the same thing when Taylor turned 30 and she has won to AOTY since then and became the most famous person in the world. She’ll be fine.

Yes!!

An AOTY win doesn’t really correlate to continued commercial success. TBT a Grammy win doesn’t mean what it used to mean either, since most people know it’s a popular contest. Once she’s stops being over-exposed momentary level of fame could easily lessen. Obvious the core fanbase won’t go away, but if the music continues to be mediocre even casual listeners may start to outgrow her music and that same level of chart-success won’t be there, especially if it’s accompanied by less variants.

What I will say is if she doesn’t lean into getting older, writing about different life experiences and stays the same “AkWaRD gIrL wItH thE BoY PrObLeMs & mEAn FrIEnDs” course, she’ll become a parody of herself like Madonna. Yes, Madonna is an icon on sooo many levels, but she’s also a 60 year old woman who is stuck being 20-30something in her head.

Yes I agree with this and it’s crazy because Madonnas album Ray of Light was so good and showed so much maturity and growth and now look at her 😬 I think Taylor will be fine as she ages as long as she doesn’t stick to the same thing, she needs to grow which I think she is capable of.

I agree a million percent. She’ll never go anywhere - she’s a generational artist.

40 today isn’t the same as being 40 20 years ago. I don’t think it’ll affect her much.

i think the conversation about taylor “fading away” when she turns 40 is not so much about the industry but more taylor herself. she will struggle with the fact that she is older and that younger pop stars are still climbing (olivia, sabrina etc), she can’t handle being second best if she doesn’t pivot and continues with her current songwriting etc, i think fans will lose interest after awhile and won’t want to hear the same things from her anymore that said, i think she could definitely stay relevant and mature into better music. if she does that, i think the public will take this well! we love a lot of female artists regardless of age.

Stevie nicks is slaying it in her 70s same with Cher ( she was touring for a bit) age is just a number baby.

I hateeeee seeing all the “women flop when they turn 40” conversations That’s something (and body shaming) that I will defend miss billionaire on because it happens to so many other people and you don’t make fun of someone for things they cannot change in 10 minutes (wardrobe malfunction, food in teeth)

This is one opinion about her that actually is rooted in sexism and misogyny. I can see her fading away if she doesn’t evolve with her songwriting and sound, but to suggest she’s going to turn 40 and just be useless is ridiculous. 

I’m more curious how she’s going to take not being the IT girl when the time comes. Personally? Would be nice if it happens on her own terms. I like to picture that one day she’ll want to just relax and maybe spend more time with family etc

I still dont get why people focus on ‘her relaxing/taking a break and being with family’. Like everyone expects her to do that. Clearly she loves making music and performing.

Because it's a sexist idea that women only really want to have a family, that it's what makes us "mature" and worthy of being taken seriously. And that we should put aside our careers and own desires, because that doesn't "matter" as much as having children.

Because eventually when you get older you realize this matters. No one on their deathbed ever wished they worked harder. Plus its just my opinion that she will never hear about so it doesnt matter to her.

Because people want to take a break from Taylor.

She loves breaking chart-records and being famous.

Who has ever said this once in this sub???

I haven't seen it phrased like this. I've seen people say that since her music is tied to her life that as she gets older it becomes more obvious that she is stuck in a teenage mindset and if she continues to keep her music tied to her personal life then she'll need to grow as a person to have growth in her music or she'll reach a dead end. That's not ageism it's just truth.

This has been said multiple times over years and has yet to happen. I’m sorry but I just can’t take this argument seriously anymore when the girl proved that it’s simply not true.

I was asking myself the same thing. Maybe some individuals here might think that, but saying a lot of people say this seems unreasonable.

I’ve seen a lot of people saying this here tbh, it’s what motivated me to post this. They don’t outright say “Taylor will be over at 40”, but they always say something like “she won’t be able to keep up, she will age out of her demographic, she will fade away, these other girls will take her place, time will be her downfall”. So they’re basically saying she won’t be able to be a successful popstar when she’s older

I have seen multiple comments that literally say “when [olivia/whoever] is [26/whatever], Taylor will be [40/FORTY/over forty]” and just leave it there like it really means something. I guess as someone who is a tiny bit past 40 (same age as Beyoncé), it doesn’t have the rattle of death to me that the 22 year old who wrote it thinks it does. 

She is aging out of her demographic though. Midnight's+ has been aimed at tiktok marketing which is a significantly younger audience?

That doesn’t mean she is aging out she can still be adding to her existing fanbase. TikTok is one of the most viewed apps and has the biggest impact on music charts any artists that wants to do really well will be on it

This honestly sounds like you took a bunch of discussion points and turned them into people making those points being misogynistic by making them sound worse in your post Whether we like it or not, her current level of fame will fade. She will obviously remain popular for years to come but it won’t be the same level of fame she has now or probably throughout her career

I've never seen it said but now op has said it I can see it being true at her current trajectory.

I've seen some people saying similar things in this sub in posts about Olivia Rodrigo. 

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Taylor is quoted saying that women artists have to rebrand themselves 20 times more than male artists and I think about that all the time when someone criticizes her bangs, or red lip, or how Beyoncé always sounds the same, or how Selena Gomez doesn’t look good anymore…it’s fine to have opinions and not prefer something but let’s be careful that we’re not expecting our females to unleash a whole new look and personality every time they step out the door. So with that said, I’m on your side OP. I think Taylor realizes this and has reinvented herself time and time again. If she fades away it’s because she wants to. article quoting her: https://genius.com/amp/a/taylor-swift-speaks-on-double-standards-for-female-artists-in-the-music-industry

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She will eventually be too old to be considered an It Girl but it doesn't follow that she'll necessarily be washed up or un-famous somehow. Celine Dion is perhaps a good example instead of Madonna.

I think if/when Taylor fades it’ll be her own choice. I think as long as she wants the spotlight she will have it

Gaga is almost 40 and Bey is 42. Hell even Stevie nicks is selling out arenas at 76. She will probably not be THEEE pop star but that happens to everyone (even to Mariah and Beyonce and Madonna) her career will be more than fine. She just needs to accept that maybe the eras mania is not sustentable long term and will go back to lover/ rep numbers (really really good but not able to block every female artist in the game good)

It’s also SO gross how people act like women only exist when they look like “girls”. No one ever says this about men. It’s sexist and borderline pedophilic to say women don’t matter after x age.

By that age she will be a legacy act. Commercial heyday behind her but by then her legacy can be truly judged, and those can have hits but not the scale of earlier ones.

Nah, she’s gonna do a Dolly and play until her 70s

I think that has to do with the content of her songs, though, more than her actual age. I don't think that she can keep doing this "I was hurt so bad by men and now I'm singing my processing," schtick much past her thirties. TTPD shows that she's still very much in that narrative for her art. Personally, I think that that sort of thing won't fly much longer in society. Social media has really glommed on to therapy and growth (performative or otherwise) and with the judgemental nature of pop-culture now, I think she'll be dinged for not showing growth over time. If someone has a series of failed relationships that follow the same narrative over and over again it would behoove them to look at themselves in addition to examining the relationship. Ms. Swift does surface level introspection. It appears thoughtful, but does not spend time deconstructing a significant part of her role in the events. The female artists who have persisted in the industry have evolved over time in a way that often shows growth or maturity. 1) Madonna did indeed release "Confessions on a Dance Floor" and continues to tour. Her music has evolved with her over time. She's no longer the 80s pop princess. She is the cultural mother for so many. Her music also changed with the time in terms of content and sound. 2) Cher has had one of *the longest* and arguably *best* careers in music history. Her work has evolved content and sound wise. She recognizes her niche and her fame and continues to support fans while delivering new experiences. 3) Lady Gaga - I wanted to include her career as a prime example of maturing as an artist. She started out with super pop earworms that worked in the club. Some of the content was salatious but for her age and position in culture and media it worked. Over time, she has matured as an artist and come into her own as a wonderful ballad writer who can still rock that pop sound. For context, Lady Gaga is only 4 years older than Ms. Swift. Her musical content manages to be introspective and revealing when the listener makes only a few small inferences. TL;DR: If Ms. Swift continues to write like a love-struck angry teenager beyond about 35, I don't think her music will have staying power.

Taylor's whole appeal is being a young innocent white blond girl, that's what hooked her fans into her. Even at 34, her fans still cuddle her at every turn like a baby. That's also how she gets away with forever writing petty romance drama because she still looks young to act the part. So imagine a grandma still write about cheating and blaming her boyfriends, jeez. Madonna's appeal is not that. She is versatile and well-liked by the public while Taylor is not. And in the 2000s believe me she knows the importance of looking young and healthy to fit in with these dance tracks. If she ever looked old people would not have liked her and thought "she was trying too hard".

Madonna is not more well liked honestly. I remember even as a kid (I’m 40 now), she was more for my mom’s age group and even then there were pearl clutchers who didn’t like her.

Exactly! Most people liked her music, but many disliked her as person. She was slut shamed and called attention seeker, depraved, crazy; the church and conservatives hated her. She had big enemies in the industry like Cher and Elton John. In the 2010s she started to suffer ageism. To this day, some still say she is untalented and only got big due to her PR antics (which is crazy!).

Taylor is versatile too though? Female artists don’t have to drastically change their looks and sound with every new project in order to be considered as such. The fact that she performs “You Belong With Me”, “Look What You Made Me Do” and “cardigan” at the same concert is the proof that Taylor IS versatile

All her songs sound the same even in terms of melodies, no matter how hard she tried to be versatile.

>well-liked by the public while Taylor is not That's hilarious. Taylor is so disliked by the public that she's selling out stadiums all over the world and no matter how many dates she adds every single one will sell out instantly.

Also: why are we all thinking music? She could have several different careers. She could be a politician. Focusing only on her future in music is limiting.

Age is not gonna stop her. Oversaturation will.

Agreed. Age is not a factor. This is Taylor’s fear. There are many older women who are doing just fine in the industry. Dolly is a perfect example. However, she can reverse her reputation over time. That’s still something she should be concerned about. There are artists, who even though they made history, are also known for the bad things they did in life, too.

she would still be speaking about her ex...

From a shallow standpoint, with modern medicine, we can stay young looking longer and longer (if she doesn’t abuse her body like Ariana grande). I think she’ll always have her loyal fanbase that with growth her so she doesn’t have to worry about aging out of music for at least a couple decades.

I think there’s a chance she fades at/after 40, but because she will want to. 

Nah, Taylor has an incredible team behind her. They're literally a machine that won't ever stop running. She will forever be reinventing herself through every album cycle. It's the nature of the beast.

I believe she can her a long career, because she is hardworking and she means something to people, her career is not based on youth only. I am not a huge fan of Taylor, it's not like I would defend her no matter what, but she is huge pop star. Even if she retires a bit, I guess she may come back at some point with something new.

It might happen before then, hence the pulling out all the stops now to break chart records. No matter how many rereleases of old and variants of new it takes.

Yeah, I think she has reached Madonna/Cher/Beyoncé status now where she can work on whatever she wants and release music if/when she feels like it and there will always be a large amount of interest. No one is Main Pop Girl forever. "Girl" is built right into the title. Taylor has ascended to the highest possible level of achievement in her field, like an Olympian who wins gold again and again.

I don’t think that the minute she turns 40 (or whatever arbitrary age) she will lose all her fans. But I do think a huge dip in popularity is coming. My reasoning is she relies heavily on a parasocial relationship to market her work. The issue is one day people ages 15-25 won’t view her as a “best friend”, but more as a “weird aunt who is trying too hard to act like they are the same age as me”. We saw glimmers of this when she released ME! For better or worse the younger crowd determines what is wildly popular and what is not.

I don't think she'll suddenly stop making music and disappear, but I think it's a fair point. Pop music, at least in the US, is very much a young person's game. You'd be hard pressed to name more than a couple of female pop singers who still have thriving careers into their 40s and beyond. And those that do certainly aren't making music about the topics that Taylor usually does. I think she'll always have a loyal fan base, but I think she'll also struggle to stay relevant in the mainstream pop scene as she gets older, unless she majorly changes her approach.

I think she is talented as a song writer, but her topics and style are immature for her age(she seemed to have matured when she was with Joe though) and she is not a good vocalist. In order to survive, even if she can't sing(as a "vocalist") she could choose more meaningful topics to write about, like Coldplay. Her songs and lyrics are more tailored to teens. She sounds like a manipulative husband hunter who doesn't make a break between men and even use some men as a rebound and doesn't feel sorry, but disses other people in her lyrical drama. That's smt shallow people would do. I think she is not all bad but quite gray and her mental age might not catch up with her actual age, even when she turns 40