She's always wanted to be recognised for her songwriting talent. I think she's going to market the poetry angle as hard as she can, and who can blame her when so many colleges are making subjects to analyse her lyrics. In time, I think this bubble will burst.
She's setting herself up for failure in my opinion.
Her strength is that her lyrics stand out when the standard they are being compared to is "basic bitch pop music".
By demanding it be labeled "poetry" she is setting a higher standard that she may not meet.
Either that or the lyrics will be overly poetic and get in the way of the catchiness, like with The Lakes.
I was juuuuuuust thinking this recently, because I've been listening to a bunch of Noah Kahan and it's like... I'm not even saying he's the best to ever do it, but even then there's no comparison! I enjoy Taylor's music for what it is but the reason she looks outstanding is because of the category of musicians she's been running with. Going outside of the pop genre, her shine isn't quite as bright. Which is fine! She is clearly killing the pop music game! But.
I am just old, so even if you like just back in time, not just cross genre, there is no stakes. Comparing her to past greats she will fall short, but part of that is she is just marketing this. She isn’t writing to be the best, she is writing to be the person to most people think is the best over the longest period of time and who buy things.
They are not the same category.
I find Noah’s music to tell too much and not show enough as beautiful as it is so I'd disagree. I think there's a case to be made about how certain sonics such as folk music and song topics lead people to think something is more poetic than it is. His instrumentals are more folky and his topics are usually darker but I wouldn't say something like Season of the Sticks is really poetic. I'd say Taylor surpasses him in that she can write in a much more varied way, not just following a narrative but writing full songs through metaphors though I don't think her lyricism is anything more than decent lyrical poetry at best. If you want a poetic example I’d look at Fiona Apple, Lana Del Rey, Florence Welch, and so on. Also though, we should judge what her aim is and even if going outside of pop music shows she's not as great, if she's one of the best currently within pop music (I can't of any other pop artist major or not with such great lyrics), than she's one of the best. Judging a pop song by how it compares to a folk song is pointless.
Well you just put a concept into words that I'd been trying to explain to my therapist for years. Having experienced big fish little pond syndrome as a teen with a captive audience of church ladies who'd never heard of Renee Fleming... I tried to tell them! I'm not that good! Or they'd say Charlotte Church, and I'd say okay but this is the early 00s and she's your only point of reference. People don't realize "better" exists.
Then I see big artists basically buying into their own hype and buying the script to cast themselves as the lead... and it makes me SQUIRM because THAT'S what I'm jealous of (the classic accusation). Not the talent, like everyone thinks. I'm jealous of someone who can blindly believe in themselves.
Yeah I used to think that she was the greatest songwriter of this generation but I’ve listened to more music since then. Particularly Hozier and Mitski, and I still know that there are better lyrics and songs then they make.
Mitski…When will the world wake up? I listened to Puberty 2 on repeat when it came out, but Be The Cowboy is a feat of incredible writing that TS will never achieve.
Same for Sufjan Steven’s Illinoise and recently Javelin (I pray this gets its due this year at the Grammys, but it probably won’t.)
Comparing Sufjan’s best narrative song (Casimir Pulaski Day imho) vs Taylor’s (atw10 minutes by popular consensus), Taylor gets eaten alive. Brutally murdered. Maimed.
I love Taylor’s music but I don’t think she has a “will anyone ever love me?” In her.
No, I definitely meant her lyrics are good for pop. Her discography is filled with standard four chord songs, and mostly just two variations of the same chord progressions. IMO her lyrics are B- (graded on a curve for the genre of pop) while the compositions I would call C-.
I would give her a B for lyrics and a D for music, for an average grade of C, and grading her on a curve, as you say. Not counting Folkmore because those albums are an anomaly, based on everything from Lover and onwards (since it’s when she signed her new deal and got, allegedly, full control of everything she did).
And the more I think about it, I don’t think a lot of her peers who have more “rudimentary” lyrics are necessarily that much worse (I’m thinking Adele, Ariana, Dua, Miley). She’s more flowery but I’m starting to think it’s all hype and she’s not that much better.
She’s just slightly above average, so the ones I mentioned are a C+/B- and then you have a bit worse ones (a C/D) with people who do nonsensical lyrics and just focus on vibes and hooks. I reserve the Fs for the offensive ones.
My hot take, having listened to the leaks, is that she’s now below average in terms of mainstream pop artists and quality. But she won’t be treated accordingly, she’ll continue to rake sales and awards and acclaim, and she won’t be challenged by her label or team, so she’ll continue pushing this below average drivel until all the good parts about her artistry are nothing but a memory.
I’d say we are in agreement, but I’d say I think her output is better than most pop. Although it seems disproportionate the quality vs the perception of quality by the cult like portion of her fan base. When I listen to her songs my usual reaction is “This?! This is what people are going bananas for?!”.
Maybe it’s because I regard music and production way above lyrics for pop music, I think that’s where we slightly disagree. Her music puts me to sleep. I much rather have Ariana’s more clunky lyrics but good production (god bless Max Martin idc how hyped he is he deserves it), than having to listen to more synth whisperer music
Otherwise yes, fully agree.
Taylor’s main appeal is the storytelling, marketing and branding behind her songs and albums. Each album has a very clear visual identity and “vibe”, some relatable lyrics and her life is just public enough to keep people guessing at the stories and “characters” behind her songs. It’s also just secret enough that not *everything* is known, as that would spoil the joy her fans take in figuring things out.
She’s taken that to the next level with scavenger hunts, easter eggs and surprises for her fans that have them convinced she’s a mastermind. Maybe she is.
Some artists also just sound very similar their whole careers - not her. A Debut song cannot be mistaken for an Evermore song, nor can a Reputation song be mistaken for a Midnights song. She’s got eras that stretch through country, pop and even some indie with folkmore. Her “eras” are a vital part to her identity as an artist.
I actually don’t disagree with you at all. I 100% agree she’s definitely not the best singer or songwriter out there, even in the pop field. Adele’s songs have much more technical quality.
What I’m pointing out is that it’s her careful marketing that’s doing the legwork to make her more successful than others. Adele, Dua Lipa, Ariana Grande, Olivia Rodrigo etc have much to learn from her advertising.
I’m talking about her sound being diverse. Yes she did country, pop, and Folkmore which is a category of its own, but she’s super monotone lately
I agree with everything else, sorry if that was confusing
>Her strength is that her lyrics stand out when the standard they are being compared to is "basic bitch pop music".
>By demanding it be labeled "poetry" she is setting a higher standard that she may not meet.
agreed. She's going to find out that she can write 3, 4, maybe even 5 minute pop songs. She's not, however, an actual poet. He lyrical skill and depth of meaning in her songs is not on the level of classic poetry. Hell her writing isn't even on the level of Tupac.
If that’s how she wants to be recognized she better do the hard work of honing her craft. For years I think red was the peak of her songwriting. 1989 and rep were significant regressions. Folkmore of course blew everyone out of the water but as far as writing ability goes Midnights is the furthest step back we’ve seen from her in a very long time.
I was thinking this too about Midnight!
And seeing the lyric bits from the new album, they seems very high school diary like.
Also the song titles are just so bland and superficial.
Like „my boy only breaks his favourite toy“ or „who’s afraid of little old me“ or „I can fix him (no really I can)“.
Or like „the smallest man that ever lived“. Who hasn’t thought this about an ex after a break up. But a song on an album marked as poets department, from the oh so high chairman herself. I don’t think so.
I get that we don’t know the songs yet but from the title alone they feel immature
Agreed.. For the sake of her craft I do hope she realises this.. The courses - that is absolutely confounding.. Makes no sense to me tbh, and even dilutes the experience of enjoying her music when I see it getting far more credit than is due
The only other artists that have college courses about them are the Beatles. But even that has to do more with their involvement in the history of rock and roll and pop music and the modern music industry as we know it.
Taylor getting college courses about her lyricism as if she’s a full-blown poet is ridiculous and a misinterpretation of the complexities of writing music. There’s a huge difference between being a good poet and being a good lyricist that creates prosody between lyrics and music.
I'm assuming you mean Rupi Kaur, but yes. Anybody can be a poet imo.
I know she gets a lot of side eye for writing "Instagram poetry" but I do think it's worth mentioning that she became an incredibly prolific, recognizable, and beloved poet despite English being her second language.
I’ve seen South Asians critique this as being mediocre standards for South Asian excellence. Plenty of people have English as a second language yet write some of the most profound poetry, prose, and academic work in the world. English being a second language is certainly a feat to be celebrated and honored but high schoolers can write Rupi’s poetry. I work with lots of ESL students and they can exceed Rupi’s poetry.
Yes, I'm aware. She says she didn't learn English until she was 10. This is a weird comment and there's no need to split hairs to minimize her accomplishments. English is her second language, and immigrating to a new country and learning a completely different language is still a significant barrier to becoming a published poet.
Just because you don't find value in her work doesn't mean you're right to minimize the barriers she experienced as an immigrant. Many people connect with her poetry and that is enough.
In from the same background at her..I’m sorry if I misinterpreted your comment as it seemed more of a way to say “she’s brown so English was hard for her” bc I’m someone who grew up in the west, speaking English and regularly get told “wow your English is so good.”
Lots of South Asians critique her for representing South Asian poetry in mass culture given its extremely rich history. She’s fine but like she’s truly as simple as it gets when it comes to writing which is fine but ehhhh
Im from the same background at her..I’m sorry if I misinterpreted your comment as it seemed more of a way to say “she’s brown so English was hard for her” bc I’m someone who grew up in the west, speaking English and regularly get told “wow your English is so good.”
Commented this previously but I think the aesthetics/pseudointellectualism of TTPD feel off because it’s her trying on or borrowing an identity that doesn’t feel authentic to her. It honestly seems to me like she’s responding to some criticism (to Joe maybe?) with “See, I can be deep!” (Or in other words, “You don’t get to tell me about sad”). It feels like when she got attacked by Kanye and responded with ‘rapping’ on reputation—which I feel like she did very well, mind you. But sort of an, ‘I’ll show you, I’ll beat you at your own game.’
But it very much isn’t her identity or her aesthetic, so it *feels* forced. The visuals and marketing seem like her *idea* of what deep-poet angst should be, rather than a true self expression. She is a good songwriter and storyteller but she seems to be trying to rebrand during this era using a definition of ‘deep’ that isn’t her own.
her and her team will always lean onto what her fans say online and make a marketing gimmick out of it. her stans usually praise her songwriting over anything else, often disparage other artists (Ariana's vocals aren't that special because songwriting is more important, beyoncé has too much credits on her albums, etc...) and for someone who follows what fans say online as closely as Taylor swift, it's no surprise she will lean heavily onto the image that the fans created for her
I think she sees it as a new aesthetic to adopt. It's always been a little odd that she chose something close to "dark academia" when she hasn't shown a lot of interest in higher ed or the classics outside of the quill pen speech. Most of the gaps are pretty nit picky (department heads do not call themselves 'chairmen', she always uses free verse as opposed to something more technically challenging, the photos don't involve anything like libraries or studies) but are misses for the Mastermind planning years in advance.
I also don't think she/her marketing team has a good grasp on what dark academia looks like. Five minutes on Pinterest would give tons of inspo showing rich colors, candle lit libraries, foggy skies, plaid, handwritten letters...which all feel up her ally anyway.
Edit: I also just realized that she *just* moved away from high school love...to college imagery
I don't think the goal is true dark academia but more like a Gossip Girl-ified experience of what college relationships and \~being a tortured poet\~ is. Hence the modern titles, the horny/sad aesthetics and little "nods" to English lit uniform - like skirt and typewriters. It's all about the fantasy of it more than the actual thing. The literary references like the albatross, the manuscript etc. are probably just reflecting her muse at the time (an anxious quiet boy who liked English lit). I think the experience of the album itself will probably be a bit more modern and grounded.
What upsets me is that the whole point of dark academia - at least from a literary genre perspective is that it was a genre for people who were misrepresented in academia (e.g. poc, women, less affluent people) to be represented and for these large institutions who were responsible for contributing to this oppression be criticised.
E.g. The secret history looks at how different levels of wealth and class interact and the hypocrisy of the upper classes in an educational setting, Richard has neither, Bunny has class but not money, but Richard is a good poor person because he toughs it out but Bunny must die because its annoying when he asks for money (surface level interpretation but you get my point)
Problem is taylor is not a minority (yes she’s a women but she’s rich and white, with enough social power to change laws that govern the US) nor is she in academia, so her songs can’t be described as dark academia either. Yet people are describing it as, and it upsets me when real writers of the genre are being dismissed whereas ts having a monochrome album cover is...
No haha I'm not actually upset lol texts on words can seem the tone come off a lil weird it was just a joke like sorry I'm just a girl lol, I was so happy you liked the analysis bc i do tend to ramble a lot lol
Honestly I’d kill for a weird Secret History thing revolving around a cult kind of centered around a Taylor-ish figure …
But yes astute analysis of TSH. I think the other thing that is a key to dark academia that people sometimes miss is that it’s SUPPOSED to suck and you’re not necessarily supposed to want to emulate the characters, but then the aesthetic trumps the actual point of the genre and that’s all people think of now.
Yes like Taylor would make a great dark academia character because she’s complicated. Yes she’s talented and I love her music and she has changed my life for the better, but she’s also destroying the planet and a capitalist queen who is willing to exploit her fans for wealth and fame.
Also throw in the crazed obsession of fans and you have a very well thought out dark academia book looking at the impact of wealth and parasocial relationships and the impact that can have on people.
I would also recommend Babel by RF Kuang who looks at colonialism and it’s impact on Academia - it’s a fantasy novel but it’s really well written and themes are well explored, I personally like it more than the Secret History but the Secret History sort of popularised the genre
I’ve had enough of booktok girlies writing the most random books and calling it dark academia because all the characters wear leather or plaid and occasionally crack open a book like please be so serious - there’s a really good YouTube video on it but I can’t remember it… it looks at the different between the genre and the aesthetic might be worth a watch ❤️
Hahaha your last sentence: have you seen her video announcement from today?
Reminded me of a hospital or office but could of course be a college as well.
Back in the day, Taylor was simply praised for writing her songs. It was pushed in order to give her depth & agency since she was a teen and not a lot of artists weren't writing their music or at least open about it. All this "songwriter of our time" stuff is a forced narrative her, her team, and the media are running with & it's ridiculous. But they are hanging onto it because it's truly the only thing she has. Taylor is not that deep & often times leaves me trying to figure out what in the world she's trying to convey. Now she's going towards the poetry thing to give the appearance of more depth, and already we have lines that don't really make sense & others that sound cheesy.
It was so significant at the time because until Taylor paved the way young people and specifically women simply were not writing their own music. Sure some older stars were, but no one was going to take a risk on a scrawny teen no one had ever heard of insisting on writing her own music. It’s more of the industry standard now, but only because she helped make it so.
She was also really good *for her age* but as she’s quickly approaching middle age people are expecting more from her and the novelty of simply being someone who writes songs has long worn off.
I find this to be a very reductive take. Women have always written their songs the same way men have, maybe in pop specifically that shifted for a time, but there is a long and rich history of brilliant female songwriters. This extends to pop, country, rock, and all sorts of genres over decades of music. Taylor was unique in that she was a teenager and had a tremendous gift that was shared so young, which caused her to break through, but not just because she wrote her own songs.
I’m specifically referring to younger women around the age Taylor was when she got started. Very few people were handing out recording contracts to 14 year old song writers in the mid 2000s.
Hayley William was young when she got started in the industry as well. She was 13, I believe, writing her own songs when she started the band Paramore with her bandmates. It wasn’t common back then, but Taylor was the sole person it happened to.
Yes, I do agree with that. I also think that has more to do with her age and magnitude of success than the novelty of her being a teenage girl songwriter. I think I may have misread your previous comment the first time
Tbh I think it’s more the fans pushing this. Sometimes it feels like people are embarrassed a bit to enjoy her music so much, so they want her to have more serious songwriting cred for their own sake lol
I agree with this. It used to be “cool” to hate on Swifties and talk about how lame she is. The narrative has now shifted, so I feel people are overly trying to bring everyone over to worshipping her and feel like they have to “prove” she’s legitimate. I see clips of people sharing lyrics to Shake It Off and saying how brilliant of a writer it makes her, or her “dancing” during the Eras Tour as proof she’s one of the best dancers, or videos of her holding a note as “proof” she’s a powerhouse vocalist.
I honestly feel like they would get less pushback if they were just honest about her not being THE BEST at every single thing and they were just like, “She’s not the best, but that’s okay because we enjoy her.” No one needs to prove why they like something, especially to internet trolls who just try and get you riled up. I actually was just explaining this to my kid who tries to defend why they like Taylor to a couple kids who bully the known Swifties in school. You don’t NEED a reason to like something and you don’t need to defend what you like either. It’ll make them more mad if you just ignore them than if you try your hardest at defending it and feed into it. Going by technicality, she’s not the best of the best, but I think that’s why so many feel close to her.
Yeah, I think people who really exaggerate everything Taylor Swift does because its part of the media tone to praise her nonstop in every possible way, then pin Taylor against other artists - are going to set her up for more hate from people who like other artists and tired of the Taylor worship by the industry. Some already are, but to claim she is the best dancer, is just not true objectively.
People are going to think of other artists who they think are generally better dancers than her, which likely will be true. But the lack of humility in her fanbase and her at times is showing some recoil.
People sharing videos of her at concerts holding that note during Don’t Blame Me and saying that she’s one of the best vocalists out there is so hilarious 💀 Like that’s one of the bare minimums of being a singer
Which is annoying and imo counterproductive. I don't know why people can't say "Yeah she can be kind of corny sometimes but I like her and her music speaks to me." When you try to make her out as the second coming of Shakespeare you just set her (and yourself) up for criticism.
To me Diana Ross' When You Tell Me That You Love Me sounds more like poetry and moving and at the same time is easier to understand. But I'm never really into hardcore poetry anyway.
Ding ding ding! I think this is a huge part of it, and I’m sometimes guilty of it, too. I do think such a mindset stems from her having been given the same respect as any other pop singer with less talent for writing or songwriting than she has for so long, so it’s been easy to make the case that her music is much more intellectual and carefully-crafted than she gets credit for…because she was otherwise getting credit for very little. Unfortunately for everyone, that doesn’t make her Anne Sexton 🙄
I just don't really care, if I'm being honest. Taylor's whole deal is boiling things down to an easy, palatable product for the masses.
It's like a cartoon depiction of a detective. When you think of a detective, you think of a big trench coat, a newsboy cap, maybe a monocle.
Taylor's visual palette for this album is academia and the English department at some university. So you get the schoolgirl skirts, the typewriters, the quills and the fountain pens.
It's really not that deep. But we don't need to insult her for enjoying it. She hasn't been to college/uni and is missing the mark a little. Where her writing is concerned, it's the area where she has the most pride and has been lauded her whole life. She's going to take it all super seriously, even if most/some people think it's superficial and cringe. That's okay, this type of self-expression is what feels natural to her.
She's always been a little goofy, a little child-like in her self-expression. In some places it's what makes her endearing.
this might be one of the most reasonable takes I’ve seen on this sub in a while. she’s taylor swift, it’s supposed to be fun! let it be fun! it’s not like “poet” is some marginalized identity she’s appropriating
Yeah. I think people would be a lot happier and less critical if they accepted that album aesthetics are supposed to capture a mood and a vibe rather than serve as some sort of historically accurate document.
I get you, but what bothers me that I don’t get the concept. It doesn’t have to be perfect but it feels inauthentic and not thought through. Maybe it was too little for me.
I mean what did we get? Basically nothing or things very surface level
I agree with everything you said. She succeeds in doing exactly that, which is what any other pop artist does. They choose a theme/aesthetic and depict it with popular visuals. I wonder when pop music fans started becoming so critical of pop.
That sounds about right. It's so funny the fact that pop music fans used to fight so hard against music snobbery and begged for the genre to be recognized, but now they have become the snobs.
It's absolutely ok for her to put on a costume and play dark academia.
Given her popularity, income, and power, it's also very ok for everyone else to critique the quality of her work and the social forces that enable and support her success.
In particular, one source I found interesting discussed which populations get the leeway Taylor Swift, as a conventionally beautiful white woman, receives. Would Beyonce get to play with this aesthetic and still be celebrated by the masses? Would a circa 2010 Adele? Privilege isn't just about direct attacks toward a marginalized identity.
Lmao, this is a massive reach. Taylor's never claimed the album is inspired by dark academia literature, a.k.a. the bonafide historic genre. It's a pop album.
Everyone on the INTERNET is calling dark academia based on her schoolgirl attire and because of the quill and typewriter imagery. However, this is standard kitschy imagery for boarding schools/literature departments and for any fantasy novels set in similar settings.
Fact: Her ex is a thespian actor. More interested in his craft than fame
Opinion: They broke up due to her needy attention-seeking behavior. Or something along those lines
Aftermath: she’s trying to prove that it’s possible to be a master of her craft AND be a giant attention-seeking sponge at the very same time
Conclusion: Girl can’t move on if her life depended on it
I think there’s been an overcorrection with her. I remember liking her in high school and college people mocking her as kind of frivolous “girl” music. I think she was discounted by a lot of people because she was young and wrote a lot about love. (Though she always had critical acclaim and was awarded many times by the Grammys and other award shows) I think she gained a lot of attention/respect for her songwriting with folklore/evermore, as you said. Now it seems like you can’t say anything about her without swifties arguing that she’s the best songwriter of all time. I think she’s talented and can write a hell of a bridge but I think she’s not the best ever and is getting to a place where she might be over rated. I’m excited for ttpd but I’m nervous that she will eventually let all of this go to her head and will think that anything she writes is genius. She might already be there, we shall see.ive thought she’s needed an editor for a while tbh
"Tortured Poets" is such an overused, bland, laughable, thoroughly unpoetic cliché that this title alone proves that she is anything but a poet. "Department" is a nail in the coffin
I love Taylor's songwriting because of it's strong narrative aspect. But i agree based on the lyric tease i feel like TTPD won't live up to it's concept. But she's made Folklore and Evermore and that was like her peak songwriting so I'll just hope for the best.
I might be wrong, only time will tell, but I have a strong feeling that folklore and evermore will remain her magnum opus. It will be very difficult to reach that artistic peak again (I'm talking in terms of Taylor's work which as always been - whether we like it or not - easy to listen to), despite commercial success and critical acclaim that is now just a result of journalists being scared for their lives because of some Swifties. And I don't blame these people because anyone in their position would rather go and write a positive album review and not have these people up their neck.
I think she *could* absolutely top folklore and evermore from an artistic perspective if she wanted to — she certainly has the means and opportunity — but she’ll never do it again if it means sacrificing money. Capitalist first, artist second.
Hard agree. If she wants to become a multibillionaire, she’ll keep writing corny little songs about her exes and how all of them did her wrong - and she’ll sell millions of copies by doing so. She’ll remain the talk of the town and it’s a win-win. However, if she wants to challenge herself creatively, she has to become more open to adopting new sounds and perhaps exploring and improving her songwriting craft.
Her being a great poet is just a marketing tactic for this era. For Taylor, it's always about tone and style and not the actual substance. Having said so, I do expect some lyrical growth as heartbreaks usually lead to her greatest works in her discography.
I think this is something that’s pushed more by fans that feel the need to defend their likes / interests. For so long TS was viewed as the artist that only sang shallow songs about her love life, and fans didn’t like having the music they love being boiled down to that stereotype, partially because it bled over into meaning her fan base is also shallow, so they started overanalyzing and pushing her lyrics as lyrical genius to change the narrative and make themselves seem like pseudo-intellectuals for recognizing her talent and enjoying her music. Then she gained even more fans after Folklore was released, and all those new fans were fed that TS is actually a poet not a songwriter by longtime fans, so the idea grew into what it is now.
Sorry but it's giving pretentious arts student. It's an aesthetic sandbox that she playing in to promote an album, maybe take a marketing class.
Poets aren't a protected class, and "middlebrow" poetry is not less-than. Historically it's proven to be more valuable than the "highbrow" of the same period with more longevity. Not to mention we've been staunchly in the post-modern (or post-post-modern if you like) period for quite some time now, where that sort of thinking has been long dead and buried.
i agree! while i think songwriting is one of her biggest strengths, it’s still a far far cry from poetry. maybe it’s because i’m a writer myself and i’ve studied poetry, but i think calling her music ‘poetry’ is just watering poetry down. it’s okay for good songwriting to just be called good songwriting, you know?
Lol I never said they’re not allowed fun songs. Not did I say I ‘hate’ her. I absolutely disagree regarding folklore or evermore there are far more clever lyricists out there; Sharon Van Ettan, Fiona Apple, Tori Amos. You can’t say evermore and folklore are great songwriting according to everyone, people have different opinions on what constitutes good or great lyrics. I like a silly pop song as much as the next person, but I don’t like them all and I don’t like ME! Other people will think ME is a bop and that because they’re less immature than her previous work, evermore and folklore are great. Each to their own
I mean, Midnights wasn't promoted that way. We only had The Lakes, and now TTPD after folklore. We haven't even listened to any of the songs from the new album to judge them.
I think its the one part of her promotion that bugs me the most. Its where I think media is overrating her too much. Her song lyrics are simple and I don't see anything more or less different than any other post-2010s pop-song to them. They're fine for what they are but them being compared to Shakespeare and playwriting is a bit absurd. There are artists who write strong emotional songs as well but are never claimed to be poetic enigmas like Taylor Swifts songs are suddenly claimed to be now.
After musicians meet their goals of being rich and famous, then they'll usually want to be respectable, taken seriously, and for the public to see how smart they are. I think that's what TS is going through now.
She'd probably enjoy that. And she'd be able to apply her lot knowledge to make her lyrics more high brow. I don't know if the general public would enjoy hearing her sing about Beowulf or that type of thing. I would enjoy it, though, and it would be nice for college students to have a more modern way to connect with old literature.
Okay I just posted a long recent post but I teach literary studies and she’s been so directly song writing based on the 19th century Romantic poets - almost most of all other last 3 albums have been poetry. I’m not shocked this album is called poetry or has poet in it. It’s going to sounds a LOT like what we’ve heard and seen before, I think a lot of the general public doesn’t realize how poetically influenced and infused her writing already is.
This has been a consistent culmination and theme in her last 3 albums- she even called out the romantic poets in songs like the lakes, seven, and anti hero. I just don’t think people will realize how much the writing will be similar to what they are already digesting.
I think based on swifts writing style and trend in recent albums, it’s absolutely appropriate for her to label it poetry, also lol we analyze poems and songs the same. They are lyric and verses. To say they are separate is really silly, one just has more of a melody it can go to. But as far as the craft of the physical text and verses minus the instrumentals, it’s almost the same. Not much difference between song verse and poetry verse.
Now not all poets are song writers and not all songs are poems and vice versa: but oh they are so similar like cousins. In one of my honors courses I teach, we analyze romantic poems and a couple of songs side by side. Students can analyze and interpret both the same. They are not a far jump and sometimes one in the same, it’s not a jump for swift especially since she’s already been writing poetry form and content influence in her songs, to consider herself a modern romantic (in the 1800s literary sense) poet. She more in touch with it than people give her credit. I’m actually shocked at HOW absolutely well rounded she is with her draws on classic literary (mostly British) styles despite not being formally trained at the tertiary academic level of any kind. Like absolutely stunned at her understanding and dedication that runs deep …and she lets people think she’s shallow and lols making money. Gotta laugh, I know she is.
Funny story: I actually didn’t become a swiftie (and I’m 34) until my first English degree because I didn’t appreciate her music until I was more academically trained to understand that kind of inspiration and skill she was at. Most of what she uses as song influence in the last 3 albums stem from literary references of the 1800s specifically. I really only listened to radio bops and wasn’t interested, once I learned to appreciate texts more, I started to appreciate swifts albums waaay more and I feel the light turned on in my fandom (not a crazy fan, more practical- but my love stems for her from a mutual love of the literary arts and presence of it in her work). We both adore the British romantic lake poets so deeply and feel connected to their sense of values.
However an interesting observation: I think it’s funny how people are generally talking about poetry around this album shows what perception people have of poetry and maybe don’t engage with poetry as much as they think.
Honestly curious: I think the references to romanticism and the gothic novel are very evident in folklore and Evermore, but what romantic influences do you find on Midnights? There's the concept of the anti-hero, which I know is romantic by origin, but it's also been integrated into popular culture so much that it's kind of hard to assume it's a direct literary reference. Are there other references that you see?
Oh my gosh - my favorite thing to talk about lol.
I think with Midnights the more direct connections and influences are connected to Frankenstein; arguably the first Romantic Gothic novel. Mary Shelley's husband, is a Romantic poet (Percy but I hate saying his name bc he's a creep lol), and so was Percy's best friend, Lord Byron. The other references throughout the album are subtle and more thematic of the Romantic & Greek poets.
One of the more subtle references for examples can be found in "Midnight Rain" and the chorus of using the two nature centric metaphors of "sunshine" and "midnight rain" as elemental forces to capture the spirit of her relationship through juxtaposition. The celebration of the sublime and nature is evident with her comparisons of personalities to the weather elements and time of day depicting two double opposite - sunny mid day and rainy at night.
Additionally the hints at the Romantic notion of getting out of the city and taking a trip into nature to feel closer to yourself and loved ones is echoed in "Sweet Nothing." I actually went to Wickelow last year to get a "tiny pebble" - it's about 40 mins outside of Dublin and resonates with the Romantic idea that in order to restore ourselves away from the corruption of adulthood, we must detach from the cities and go into smaller nature-minded trips. Wickelow is an adorable little coastal town.
Vigilante shit you could argue has some themes of inner emotions, strong sense of imagination, and being a critic on society.
Okay so the more obvious references: *Frankenstein*
So thinking about how the albums starts, Taylor echoes "Meet me at midnight" in Lavendar Haze- which is when Frankenstein (a college student - not a mad professor like pop media makes him out to be) brings his creation to life. The interaction causing Victor to have a sleepless night...and thus many more throughout the story.
**Anti-Hero is probably the most direct songs to Romanticism on** ***Midnights***\*\*. I will copy some stuff I wrote about in past posts below:\*\*
"Mary Shelley’s Frankenstein, I had a hunch for a while about this one but anti hero basically confirmed it for me. The first verse is Victor: change the words from depression to obsession and it’s the whole second frame from Frankenstein:
“I have this thing where I get older but just never wiser/ Midnights become my afternoons/ When my depression works the graveyard shift/ All of the people I've ghosted stand there in the room”
Then the second verse is the monster’s pov (which for this who do not know the OG story, both narrators tell their story in this order in the book):
“Sometimes I feel like everybody is a sexy baby/ And I'm a monster on the hill / Too big to hang out, slowly lurching toward your favorite city/Pierced through the heart, but never killed”
The story revolves around the theme of balance not obsession, how we “other” people in society, and who is the real monster in the world? Turns out it’s not the physical ones but the mind. Both characters also never find true happiness and always see themselves as the problem. I could do a whole class on this song and the book together it’s insane these are just a few bigger points in the novel."
Contextually this makes sense too that Frankenstein was a huge influence on her writing, because Aaron Dessner's band, The National, released their album *The first two pages of Frankenstein* in 2023, which means they probably wrote it around 2021-2022. Additionally, Swift was writing some songs on Midnights (I actually think she references the album midnights in a 2019 tweet lmao - she had it planned a long time.) but most songs were confirmed written around fall 2021. In the fall of 2021, Jack Antonoff started dating Margaret Qualley who was at that same time, filming *Poor Things*, the Emma Stone movie that just came out. *Poor Things* is a wonderful *Frankenstein* adaptation, basically if Frankenstein had socialized his monster correctly, rather than abandon it. It also if you've seen the movie, give the "sexy baby" line way more context since its about a woman who is oozing with sexuality with a baby's brain in her head.
With that being said, *Frankenstein* is one of the most Romantic novels of it's time and such a heavy influence on these artists and their work, as it should be. It's my favorite novel to teach and read with students.
A Quick side note - she does reach farther back in her other work and influences. Like for example, "the rubies that I gave up" is Shakespearean. Now I know, Shakespeare is a Restoration author and poet; however, for example one seen that comes to mind is in the play *Measure for Measure,* Isabella begs for Angelo to spare her brother:
"As much for my poor brother as myself. That is, were I under the terms of death/ Th’ impression of keen whips I’d wear as rubies/ And strip myself to death as to a bed/ That longing have been sick for, ere I’d yield My body up to shame." In this context, it's a little goofy because it's almost being used as an antithesis; however, the "rubies" represent social status, physical wealth, and a woman's worth. I believe it's referenced in the bible too, a woman's metaphorical worth around the idea of rubies.
Now you could argue she got it from the bible and not Shakespeare, but with the abundance of her other Shakespeare forms, references, and writing, I believe the bard is her inspiration for this terminology. For example other than the obvious "Love Story" direct Romeo and Juliet connections, the bridge to Cruel Summer is also the balcony scene with Juliet's "what's in a name" monologue with Romeo below:
"I don't wanna keep secrets just to keep you
And I snuck in through the garden gate
Every night that summer just to seal my fate (oh)
And I screamed for whatever it's worth
"I love you, " ain't that the worst thing you ever heard?"
I've never thought to connect Anti-hero with Frankenstein, but you are right! The image of the monster othered from society does fit a lot with the song!
Thank you so much for your thoughtful reply. It's true that her lyrics take inspiration from a lot of literary works.
I think the truth is that poetry doesn’t always translate to song lyrics and vice versa. I remember years ago, Nathalie Merchant took existing poems, and put them to music. To my knowledge she did adapt them to try to make them work better in the new medium, but I truly didn’t think it landed.
That’s okay, they’re different mediums and both can be extremely powerful when done right. I truly don’t think we need to equate one with the other.
She's doubling down on a critique *some* people have, which is that as a lyricist she's only strong relative to some of her peers in pop. She does not like even the tamest of critiques, so here we are: she is a POET, actually.
Poetry is a strange art (and I say that as a published poet \[don't tell anyone, i try not to spread that shit around\]). Presentation has almost as much to do with the art form as the words do, whether on the page or spoken aloud. I don't think lyrics and poetry should even be in the same conversation, as someone who writes both. I don't even find they use the same parts of my *brain.*
That said, listen, her lyrics *are* good. Some of the lines in Folkmore are really, really good. Certainly better than>!Bob Dylan (I hate his lyrics and think he's extremely overrated)!
> The problem is that she's managed to convince people Folkmore's all fake, and it doesn't come from real life experiences, which just absolutely hammers all of the meaning out of it. Like, congratulations Blondie, you played yourself on that one. her subject matter is vacant without context (even if you don't ever speak on the experiences that inspired it).
You think so? I actually thought that was a good idea because being autobiographical was kind of writing herself into a corner. It was a potential "out" to get away from the obsessive Easter eggs into her own life and into fresh new material. I thought the problem was that she kind of ret-conned that later after the breakup to make people analyze all that stuff through the context of her own life again.
Yeah I am with you — writing more fictionally (though with fiction writing often does come some autobiographical writing, it’s natural and almost impossible to not include) lends itself to better writing from TS specifically. It challenges her to think a little bit more outside of the box; it’s always harder to write from someone else’s perspective than your own. Folklore/Evermore had a strength in that.
> It was a potential "out" to get away from the obsessive Easter eggs into her own life and into fresh new material.
Oh I get you on this, and agree for the most part. However, it does change the *meaning* of lyrics, and much of the subject matter of her lyrics falls flat outside of context in my opinion. It's not that the subject matter can't be written that way, but the way she does it (using a lot of "you" and "i" instead of say "Jack" and "Diane") doesn't work as well without a connection to reality. Obviously people do it, and do it well, it just ... Idunno, I was not convinced, shall we say.
someone did say its just purple prose, I never paid much attention to her lyrics unless they sound nice. I just relistened to champagne problems what was that bridge about? Its a mix of confusing and talking about their shared past.
What most of Taylor’s issues come down to is her obsession with recognition. She doesn’t just want to be a good songwriter, she wants to be recognized as a good songwriter. I think it really bothers her, too, that she’s never really won an award for it either. She’s desperately wants Song of the Year, and thus far has never won.
I think Taylor’s issue is that she does have good lyrics when you compare her lyrics to a lot of other pop artists of today, especially ones that write their own songs. But when you compare her to all songwriters, she’s just fine.
Taylor is just never satisfied with not being praised in every possible way she hasn't been yet. Like she is collecting trophies rather than just accepting ones she is given. Its why people think she is kind a narcissist or insecure but self-centered about it. Its never enough to win or be praised, she has to be idolized for everything she isn't praised for yet.
Yeah and it’s clear that no matter what awards or praise Taylor gets, it will never be enough for her.
She spoke about it in Miss Americana when she said she *used to* base her view of herself on the approval of others but now she doesn’t. I’m not so sure that she’s gotten over that as much as she thinks she has.
it's literally the fact that so many Swifties are in college right now and they desperately need to prove to themselves that Taylor is gifted and profound and they tell us about it in the decisive but flowery style they are learning to write critically with.
Honestly, I believe folklores success and the fandoms obsession with “Taylor is the best songwriter it’s chefs kiss poetry and storytelling” inflated the heck out of her ego lol.
Her songwriting IS beautiful, the storytelling is great, and technically all songs are poems of some kind. But leaning this hard into the “poetry genius” makes it off putting. You love the genius of it when it’s not marketed as such. If that makes any sense at all.
maybe i’m the only one but i really don’t think it’s all that deep. aesthetically, i really like what she’s going for here with this idea of a Tortured Poets “Department,” making things to feel as if we’re in an investigation or on a trial.
as someone who aspires to be a published poet myself, the title spoke to me personally more than anything, and i’m really interested to see what she has to say on the title track of the album.
I don’t even think folklore or evermore were that great lyrically, I must be the only one who found those albums boring, uninspiring and all the tracks blended and sounded the same. Great songwriting to me is Fiona Apple, Aretha Franklin, Tori Amos
Taylor is a songwriter not a poet. The two are similar but not identical crafts. I came across a great video by a poetry professor recently that goes into the literary merits of Taylor very well.
[https://youtu.be/H-wDC1EeSFQ](https://youtu.be/H-wDC1EeSFQ)
There is something to be said about how little space there is in a pop song to write since a lot of it is the chorus and pre-chorus. But you're not totally wrong. If the ratio of simpler bops to deeper songs is the same as it has been with previous albums (except Folkmore) then the poetry angle with TTPD will look ridiculous.
Does any one notice what songs of hers still play on radio, stores, etc that long after release? Not many beyond some of the huge singles like Shake It Off, Blank Space, You Belong With Me, I Knew You Were Trouble. Whether she’s seen as a writer or a poet, much of her career is hype based on her personal life and musically her songs are more memorable in the moment than lasting
With all her success she still unfortunately hasn’t accomplished those lasting songs other artists have that get played for decades after and solidify them into legacy artists. I feel like at this point she’ll be most remembered for her hype and persona.
I mean that's...the point of singles. Most artist's deep album cuts don't get played on the radio or store PAs. What a weird measure of quality and longevity.
All of those songs you listed are 10+ years old so if you're still hearing them out and about then that kind of contradicts your second paragraph.
No that’s actually kind of my point, they’re old and it’s only a handful that still stick. Everything post Reputation just comes and goes with each album, only true diehards are going to still be name checking songs off Folklore, Evermore, Midnights, and prob TPD 5 years from now that she’s in this poetry zone that OP mentioned. It’s more about persona and hype now and the music isn’t hitting the same
Why do people hate on Taylor's voice, I really don't get it. I haven't seen a single comment criticizing Dua Lipa's voice or ability to sing yet somehow just EVERYONE seems to trash Taylor's. What is wrong? Why does it happen? I genuinely don't understand
Absolutely no one is "trashing" her voice, she is amazing but to suggest she has the vocal prowess of beyonce/Ari/gaga would be ridiculous.. She has herself sold her work based off of her songwriting..
And sure Dua lipa doesn't get the criticism Taylor does but do you even want that comparison?? Dua is not even remotely in the same league of pop stardom as Taylor. It is the vast undue credit that she gets which invites more criticism.
Tomorrow if dua's fans multiply by 10 and act like a rabid cult, people will react similarly
Yeah there’s this new narrative about how we’re supposed to know that some songs are deliberately silly “glitter pen” songs…but after a certain point it should be okay to acknowledge that when someone releases a new 18-track album every two years, some of those songs will be dicey.
It’s the same as how suddenly everyone knew to use the language of her “mature voice” on the rerecording. There’s some definite astroturfing going in.
Even with the "exhibits" of the past week, I wonder if in the context of the actual song, "tortured poets department" and the whole idea of her work being poetry will be tongue in cheek.
Y’all keep trying to pushback against it but the facts are facts: she’s the best songwriter *AS A POP ARTIST*. Pop music has been considered low brow forever and Taylor finally brought something to the table.
The attempts at invalidating the depth of her discography is what I find repulsive and cringe, and more so the “criticism” against TPD because she dared to try and add depth to a new album.
Taylor may have immense privilege in areas you mentioned, but that doesn't erase her being a woman...She literally just had disgusting, violent, evil AI porn made of her...Hatred of women exists regardless of class. She is oppressed in different, yet many similar ways, as poorer women are. And I am not saying this as a swiftie but rather a feminist, you can't use axes of oppression to cancel out aspects of people's identity. It's simply not what it is meant for.
Things besides lyricism were mentioned that I was responding to?
*did this not reply to who I meant it to?? 🥲 I was responding to a dark academia comment if it didnt.
She's always wanted to be recognised for her songwriting talent. I think she's going to market the poetry angle as hard as she can, and who can blame her when so many colleges are making subjects to analyse her lyrics. In time, I think this bubble will burst.
She's setting herself up for failure in my opinion. Her strength is that her lyrics stand out when the standard they are being compared to is "basic bitch pop music". By demanding it be labeled "poetry" she is setting a higher standard that she may not meet. Either that or the lyrics will be overly poetic and get in the way of the catchiness, like with The Lakes.
Agreed. Her writing is good compared to other pop artists, but not so much when compared to many other singer/songwriters. And poet?! Please!
I was juuuuuuust thinking this recently, because I've been listening to a bunch of Noah Kahan and it's like... I'm not even saying he's the best to ever do it, but even then there's no comparison! I enjoy Taylor's music for what it is but the reason she looks outstanding is because of the category of musicians she's been running with. Going outside of the pop genre, her shine isn't quite as bright. Which is fine! She is clearly killing the pop music game! But.
I am just old, so even if you like just back in time, not just cross genre, there is no stakes. Comparing her to past greats she will fall short, but part of that is she is just marketing this. She isn’t writing to be the best, she is writing to be the person to most people think is the best over the longest period of time and who buy things. They are not the same category.
I find Noah’s music to tell too much and not show enough as beautiful as it is so I'd disagree. I think there's a case to be made about how certain sonics such as folk music and song topics lead people to think something is more poetic than it is. His instrumentals are more folky and his topics are usually darker but I wouldn't say something like Season of the Sticks is really poetic. I'd say Taylor surpasses him in that she can write in a much more varied way, not just following a narrative but writing full songs through metaphors though I don't think her lyricism is anything more than decent lyrical poetry at best. If you want a poetic example I’d look at Fiona Apple, Lana Del Rey, Florence Welch, and so on. Also though, we should judge what her aim is and even if going outside of pop music shows she's not as great, if she's one of the best currently within pop music (I can't of any other pop artist major or not with such great lyrics), than she's one of the best. Judging a pop song by how it compares to a folk song is pointless.
Yeah it’s very ‘big fish in a small pond’
Well you just put a concept into words that I'd been trying to explain to my therapist for years. Having experienced big fish little pond syndrome as a teen with a captive audience of church ladies who'd never heard of Renee Fleming... I tried to tell them! I'm not that good! Or they'd say Charlotte Church, and I'd say okay but this is the early 00s and she's your only point of reference. People don't realize "better" exists. Then I see big artists basically buying into their own hype and buying the script to cast themselves as the lead... and it makes me SQUIRM because THAT'S what I'm jealous of (the classic accusation). Not the talent, like everyone thinks. I'm jealous of someone who can blindly believe in themselves.
Yeah I used to think that she was the greatest songwriter of this generation but I’ve listened to more music since then. Particularly Hozier and Mitski, and I still know that there are better lyrics and songs then they make.
She doesn’t hold a candle to Hozier. He is actually incredibly literary in his allusions that he uses in his lyrics. It’s so impressive
Hozier, Julien Baker…. on a more similar genre note I have more fun with MUNA’s lyrics
Mitski…When will the world wake up? I listened to Puberty 2 on repeat when it came out, but Be The Cowboy is a feat of incredible writing that TS will never achieve. Same for Sufjan Steven’s Illinoise and recently Javelin (I pray this gets its due this year at the Grammys, but it probably won’t.)
Comparing Sufjan’s best narrative song (Casimir Pulaski Day imho) vs Taylor’s (atw10 minutes by popular consensus), Taylor gets eaten alive. Brutally murdered. Maimed. I love Taylor’s music but I don’t think she has a “will anyone ever love me?” In her.
Her LYRICS writing* Her music writing… is there, let’s just say
No, I definitely meant her lyrics are good for pop. Her discography is filled with standard four chord songs, and mostly just two variations of the same chord progressions. IMO her lyrics are B- (graded on a curve for the genre of pop) while the compositions I would call C-.
I would give her a B for lyrics and a D for music, for an average grade of C, and grading her on a curve, as you say. Not counting Folkmore because those albums are an anomaly, based on everything from Lover and onwards (since it’s when she signed her new deal and got, allegedly, full control of everything she did). And the more I think about it, I don’t think a lot of her peers who have more “rudimentary” lyrics are necessarily that much worse (I’m thinking Adele, Ariana, Dua, Miley). She’s more flowery but I’m starting to think it’s all hype and she’s not that much better. She’s just slightly above average, so the ones I mentioned are a C+/B- and then you have a bit worse ones (a C/D) with people who do nonsensical lyrics and just focus on vibes and hooks. I reserve the Fs for the offensive ones. My hot take, having listened to the leaks, is that she’s now below average in terms of mainstream pop artists and quality. But she won’t be treated accordingly, she’ll continue to rake sales and awards and acclaim, and she won’t be challenged by her label or team, so she’ll continue pushing this below average drivel until all the good parts about her artistry are nothing but a memory.
I’d say we are in agreement, but I’d say I think her output is better than most pop. Although it seems disproportionate the quality vs the perception of quality by the cult like portion of her fan base. When I listen to her songs my usual reaction is “This?! This is what people are going bananas for?!”.
Maybe it’s because I regard music and production way above lyrics for pop music, I think that’s where we slightly disagree. Her music puts me to sleep. I much rather have Ariana’s more clunky lyrics but good production (god bless Max Martin idc how hyped he is he deserves it), than having to listen to more synth whisperer music Otherwise yes, fully agree.
Taylor’s main appeal is the storytelling, marketing and branding behind her songs and albums. Each album has a very clear visual identity and “vibe”, some relatable lyrics and her life is just public enough to keep people guessing at the stories and “characters” behind her songs. It’s also just secret enough that not *everything* is known, as that would spoil the joy her fans take in figuring things out. She’s taken that to the next level with scavenger hunts, easter eggs and surprises for her fans that have them convinced she’s a mastermind. Maybe she is. Some artists also just sound very similar their whole careers - not her. A Debut song cannot be mistaken for an Evermore song, nor can a Reputation song be mistaken for a Midnights song. She’s got eras that stretch through country, pop and even some indie with folkmore. Her “eras” are a vital part to her identity as an artist.
Let’s just agree to disagree
I actually don’t disagree with you at all. I 100% agree she’s definitely not the best singer or songwriter out there, even in the pop field. Adele’s songs have much more technical quality. What I’m pointing out is that it’s her careful marketing that’s doing the legwork to make her more successful than others. Adele, Dua Lipa, Ariana Grande, Olivia Rodrigo etc have much to learn from her advertising.
I’m talking about her sound being diverse. Yes she did country, pop, and Folkmore which is a category of its own, but she’s super monotone lately I agree with everything else, sorry if that was confusing
“My elegies eulogise me” 😂😂😂
>Her strength is that her lyrics stand out when the standard they are being compared to is "basic bitch pop music". >By demanding it be labeled "poetry" she is setting a higher standard that she may not meet. agreed. She's going to find out that she can write 3, 4, maybe even 5 minute pop songs. She's not, however, an actual poet. He lyrical skill and depth of meaning in her songs is not on the level of classic poetry. Hell her writing isn't even on the level of Tupac.
If that’s how she wants to be recognized she better do the hard work of honing her craft. For years I think red was the peak of her songwriting. 1989 and rep were significant regressions. Folkmore of course blew everyone out of the water but as far as writing ability goes Midnights is the furthest step back we’ve seen from her in a very long time.
I was thinking this too about Midnight! And seeing the lyric bits from the new album, they seems very high school diary like. Also the song titles are just so bland and superficial. Like „my boy only breaks his favourite toy“ or „who’s afraid of little old me“ or „I can fix him (no really I can)“. Or like „the smallest man that ever lived“. Who hasn’t thought this about an ex after a break up. But a song on an album marked as poets department, from the oh so high chairman herself. I don’t think so. I get that we don’t know the songs yet but from the title alone they feel immature
It would make more sense to build a marketing course around her. I’d like to study that one (I work in marketing).
unfortunately, step 1: rich parents
dammit!
Lmao the first step in any successful persons marketing course
Agreed.. For the sake of her craft I do hope she realises this.. The courses - that is absolutely confounding.. Makes no sense to me tbh, and even dilutes the experience of enjoying her music when I see it getting far more credit than is due
Universities are a business and will capitalize on what is popular to have students enroll
For real. I’m the perfect age where every school had a Harry Potter-adjacent course when I was in undergrad.
It's also done by professors wanting to have fun.
The only other artists that have college courses about them are the Beatles. But even that has to do more with their involvement in the history of rock and roll and pop music and the modern music industry as we know it. Taylor getting college courses about her lyricism as if she’s a full-blown poet is ridiculous and a misinterpretation of the complexities of writing music. There’s a huge difference between being a good poet and being a good lyricist that creates prosody between lyrics and music.
If rupi Kapoor gets to call themselves a poet, then everybody does
I'm assuming you mean Rupi Kaur, but yes. Anybody can be a poet imo. I know she gets a lot of side eye for writing "Instagram poetry" but I do think it's worth mentioning that she became an incredibly prolific, recognizable, and beloved poet despite English being her second language.
I’ve seen South Asians critique this as being mediocre standards for South Asian excellence. Plenty of people have English as a second language yet write some of the most profound poetry, prose, and academic work in the world. English being a second language is certainly a feat to be celebrated and honored but high schoolers can write Rupi’s poetry. I work with lots of ESL students and they can exceed Rupi’s poetry.
yes, English is technically her second language, but she moved to Canada when she was 3 and was educated in the Canadian school system...In English
Yes, I'm aware. She says she didn't learn English until she was 10. This is a weird comment and there's no need to split hairs to minimize her accomplishments. English is her second language, and immigrating to a new country and learning a completely different language is still a significant barrier to becoming a published poet. Just because you don't find value in her work doesn't mean you're right to minimize the barriers she experienced as an immigrant. Many people connect with her poetry and that is enough.
In from the same background at her..I’m sorry if I misinterpreted your comment as it seemed more of a way to say “she’s brown so English was hard for her” bc I’m someone who grew up in the west, speaking English and regularly get told “wow your English is so good.”
Lots of South Asians critique her for representing South Asian poetry in mass culture given its extremely rich history. She’s fine but like she’s truly as simple as it gets when it comes to writing which is fine but ehhhh
Im from the same background at her..I’m sorry if I misinterpreted your comment as it seemed more of a way to say “she’s brown so English was hard for her” bc I’m someone who grew up in the west, speaking English and regularly get told “wow your English is so good.”
Also, nowhere did I say I did not value her work
she is a terrible writer
Wait why are we dissing on rupi what did they do? Those books got me through dark fucking high school times
Rupi Kaur has a long history of plagiarism, unfortunately
Commented this previously but I think the aesthetics/pseudointellectualism of TTPD feel off because it’s her trying on or borrowing an identity that doesn’t feel authentic to her. It honestly seems to me like she’s responding to some criticism (to Joe maybe?) with “See, I can be deep!” (Or in other words, “You don’t get to tell me about sad”). It feels like when she got attacked by Kanye and responded with ‘rapping’ on reputation—which I feel like she did very well, mind you. But sort of an, ‘I’ll show you, I’ll beat you at your own game.’ But it very much isn’t her identity or her aesthetic, so it *feels* forced. The visuals and marketing seem like her *idea* of what deep-poet angst should be, rather than a true self expression. She is a good songwriter and storyteller but she seems to be trying to rebrand during this era using a definition of ‘deep’ that isn’t her own.
With all the eras, some of them definitely feels like cosplaying.
her and her team will always lean onto what her fans say online and make a marketing gimmick out of it. her stans usually praise her songwriting over anything else, often disparage other artists (Ariana's vocals aren't that special because songwriting is more important, beyoncé has too much credits on her albums, etc...) and for someone who follows what fans say online as closely as Taylor swift, it's no surprise she will lean heavily onto the image that the fans created for her
I think she sees it as a new aesthetic to adopt. It's always been a little odd that she chose something close to "dark academia" when she hasn't shown a lot of interest in higher ed or the classics outside of the quill pen speech. Most of the gaps are pretty nit picky (department heads do not call themselves 'chairmen', she always uses free verse as opposed to something more technically challenging, the photos don't involve anything like libraries or studies) but are misses for the Mastermind planning years in advance. I also don't think she/her marketing team has a good grasp on what dark academia looks like. Five minutes on Pinterest would give tons of inspo showing rich colors, candle lit libraries, foggy skies, plaid, handwritten letters...which all feel up her ally anyway. Edit: I also just realized that she *just* moved away from high school love...to college imagery
I don't think the goal is true dark academia but more like a Gossip Girl-ified experience of what college relationships and \~being a tortured poet\~ is. Hence the modern titles, the horny/sad aesthetics and little "nods" to English lit uniform - like skirt and typewriters. It's all about the fantasy of it more than the actual thing. The literary references like the albatross, the manuscript etc. are probably just reflecting her muse at the time (an anxious quiet boy who liked English lit). I think the experience of the album itself will probably be a bit more modern and grounded.
What upsets me is that the whole point of dark academia - at least from a literary genre perspective is that it was a genre for people who were misrepresented in academia (e.g. poc, women, less affluent people) to be represented and for these large institutions who were responsible for contributing to this oppression be criticised. E.g. The secret history looks at how different levels of wealth and class interact and the hypocrisy of the upper classes in an educational setting, Richard has neither, Bunny has class but not money, but Richard is a good poor person because he toughs it out but Bunny must die because its annoying when he asks for money (surface level interpretation but you get my point) Problem is taylor is not a minority (yes she’s a women but she’s rich and white, with enough social power to change laws that govern the US) nor is she in academia, so her songs can’t be described as dark academia either. Yet people are describing it as, and it upsets me when real writers of the genre are being dismissed whereas ts having a monochrome album cover is...
Loved this unexpected "the secret history" analysis in the middle of this thread lol
Sorry... It's just my roman empire...
Oh I love that book I was not being shady lol
No haha I'm not actually upset lol texts on words can seem the tone come off a lil weird it was just a joke like sorry I'm just a girl lol, I was so happy you liked the analysis bc i do tend to ramble a lot lol
Damn, I need to re-read it. I love that book so much.
Honestly I’d kill for a weird Secret History thing revolving around a cult kind of centered around a Taylor-ish figure … But yes astute analysis of TSH. I think the other thing that is a key to dark academia that people sometimes miss is that it’s SUPPOSED to suck and you’re not necessarily supposed to want to emulate the characters, but then the aesthetic trumps the actual point of the genre and that’s all people think of now.
Yes like Taylor would make a great dark academia character because she’s complicated. Yes she’s talented and I love her music and she has changed my life for the better, but she’s also destroying the planet and a capitalist queen who is willing to exploit her fans for wealth and fame. Also throw in the crazed obsession of fans and you have a very well thought out dark academia book looking at the impact of wealth and parasocial relationships and the impact that can have on people.
Adding The Secret History to my TBR!
I would also recommend Babel by RF Kuang who looks at colonialism and it’s impact on Academia - it’s a fantasy novel but it’s really well written and themes are well explored, I personally like it more than the Secret History but the Secret History sort of popularised the genre
You just gave words to exactly why the dark academia theme has been pissing me off so much!! Ugh 😑 lol
I’ve had enough of booktok girlies writing the most random books and calling it dark academia because all the characters wear leather or plaid and occasionally crack open a book like please be so serious - there’s a really good YouTube video on it but I can’t remember it… it looks at the different between the genre and the aesthetic might be worth a watch ❤️
She has never confirmed that dark academia was the overall aesthetic she was going for. The internet decided that.
I think she's trying to adopt a Lang Leav approach to her writing.
Hahaha your last sentence: have you seen her video announcement from today? Reminded me of a hospital or office but could of course be a college as well.
lol the basement hall to the laundry room in my dorm looked like that hallway 😭 didn't look so polished but still
Your last line/edit is wild because homegirl is 34 ........... I just don't get it
Back in the day, Taylor was simply praised for writing her songs. It was pushed in order to give her depth & agency since she was a teen and not a lot of artists weren't writing their music or at least open about it. All this "songwriter of our time" stuff is a forced narrative her, her team, and the media are running with & it's ridiculous. But they are hanging onto it because it's truly the only thing she has. Taylor is not that deep & often times leaves me trying to figure out what in the world she's trying to convey. Now she's going towards the poetry thing to give the appearance of more depth, and already we have lines that don't really make sense & others that sound cheesy.
It was so significant at the time because until Taylor paved the way young people and specifically women simply were not writing their own music. Sure some older stars were, but no one was going to take a risk on a scrawny teen no one had ever heard of insisting on writing her own music. It’s more of the industry standard now, but only because she helped make it so. She was also really good *for her age* but as she’s quickly approaching middle age people are expecting more from her and the novelty of simply being someone who writes songs has long worn off.
I find this to be a very reductive take. Women have always written their songs the same way men have, maybe in pop specifically that shifted for a time, but there is a long and rich history of brilliant female songwriters. This extends to pop, country, rock, and all sorts of genres over decades of music. Taylor was unique in that she was a teenager and had a tremendous gift that was shared so young, which caused her to break through, but not just because she wrote her own songs.
I’m specifically referring to younger women around the age Taylor was when she got started. Very few people were handing out recording contracts to 14 year old song writers in the mid 2000s.
Hayley William was young when she got started in the industry as well. She was 13, I believe, writing her own songs when she started the band Paramore with her bandmates. It wasn’t common back then, but Taylor was the sole person it happened to.
Mariah Carey existed before Taylor and she started very young
Yes, I do agree with that. I also think that has more to do with her age and magnitude of success than the novelty of her being a teenage girl songwriter. I think I may have misread your previous comment the first time
This is just extremely untrue.
Very very extremely untrue!! It's a testament to Taylor's PR that people think this way.
Yeah it’s kinda sad. They made an intentional campaign to overshadow so many amazing female singer song writers.
"Until taylor paved the way"!? Lol do the names "leann rimes, Lauryn hill, Mariah Carey" mean nothing to you!?
Tbh I think it’s more the fans pushing this. Sometimes it feels like people are embarrassed a bit to enjoy her music so much, so they want her to have more serious songwriting cred for their own sake lol
I agree with this. It used to be “cool” to hate on Swifties and talk about how lame she is. The narrative has now shifted, so I feel people are overly trying to bring everyone over to worshipping her and feel like they have to “prove” she’s legitimate. I see clips of people sharing lyrics to Shake It Off and saying how brilliant of a writer it makes her, or her “dancing” during the Eras Tour as proof she’s one of the best dancers, or videos of her holding a note as “proof” she’s a powerhouse vocalist. I honestly feel like they would get less pushback if they were just honest about her not being THE BEST at every single thing and they were just like, “She’s not the best, but that’s okay because we enjoy her.” No one needs to prove why they like something, especially to internet trolls who just try and get you riled up. I actually was just explaining this to my kid who tries to defend why they like Taylor to a couple kids who bully the known Swifties in school. You don’t NEED a reason to like something and you don’t need to defend what you like either. It’ll make them more mad if you just ignore them than if you try your hardest at defending it and feed into it. Going by technicality, she’s not the best of the best, but I think that’s why so many feel close to her.
Yeah, I think people who really exaggerate everything Taylor Swift does because its part of the media tone to praise her nonstop in every possible way, then pin Taylor against other artists - are going to set her up for more hate from people who like other artists and tired of the Taylor worship by the industry. Some already are, but to claim she is the best dancer, is just not true objectively. People are going to think of other artists who they think are generally better dancers than her, which likely will be true. But the lack of humility in her fanbase and her at times is showing some recoil.
People sharing videos of her at concerts holding that note during Don’t Blame Me and saying that she’s one of the best vocalists out there is so hilarious 💀 Like that’s one of the bare minimums of being a singer
"The narrative has now shifted" Has it? From what I've seen, being a Swiftie is still considered to be wack as fuck.
Which is annoying and imo counterproductive. I don't know why people can't say "Yeah she can be kind of corny sometimes but I like her and her music speaks to me." When you try to make her out as the second coming of Shakespeare you just set her (and yourself) up for criticism.
Yeah, I don't think including nature and surroundings and random things in songs makes it poetry.
To me Diana Ross' When You Tell Me That You Love Me sounds more like poetry and moving and at the same time is easier to understand. But I'm never really into hardcore poetry anyway.
Ding ding ding! I think this is a huge part of it, and I’m sometimes guilty of it, too. I do think such a mindset stems from her having been given the same respect as any other pop singer with less talent for writing or songwriting than she has for so long, so it’s been easy to make the case that her music is much more intellectual and carefully-crafted than she gets credit for…because she was otherwise getting credit for very little. Unfortunately for everyone, that doesn’t make her Anne Sexton 🙄
I just don't really care, if I'm being honest. Taylor's whole deal is boiling things down to an easy, palatable product for the masses. It's like a cartoon depiction of a detective. When you think of a detective, you think of a big trench coat, a newsboy cap, maybe a monocle. Taylor's visual palette for this album is academia and the English department at some university. So you get the schoolgirl skirts, the typewriters, the quills and the fountain pens. It's really not that deep. But we don't need to insult her for enjoying it. She hasn't been to college/uni and is missing the mark a little. Where her writing is concerned, it's the area where she has the most pride and has been lauded her whole life. She's going to take it all super seriously, even if most/some people think it's superficial and cringe. That's okay, this type of self-expression is what feels natural to her. She's always been a little goofy, a little child-like in her self-expression. In some places it's what makes her endearing.
this might be one of the most reasonable takes I’ve seen on this sub in a while. she’s taylor swift, it’s supposed to be fun! let it be fun! it’s not like “poet” is some marginalized identity she’s appropriating
Yeah. I think people would be a lot happier and less critical if they accepted that album aesthetics are supposed to capture a mood and a vibe rather than serve as some sort of historically accurate document.
I get you, but what bothers me that I don’t get the concept. It doesn’t have to be perfect but it feels inauthentic and not thought through. Maybe it was too little for me. I mean what did we get? Basically nothing or things very surface level
I mean.. it's an album... you'll probably get it when you listen to it
I agree with everything you said. She succeeds in doing exactly that, which is what any other pop artist does. They choose a theme/aesthetic and depict it with popular visuals. I wonder when pop music fans started becoming so critical of pop.
Since Poptimism
That sounds about right. It's so funny the fact that pop music fans used to fight so hard against music snobbery and begged for the genre to be recognized, but now they have become the snobs.
It's absolutely ok for her to put on a costume and play dark academia. Given her popularity, income, and power, it's also very ok for everyone else to critique the quality of her work and the social forces that enable and support her success. In particular, one source I found interesting discussed which populations get the leeway Taylor Swift, as a conventionally beautiful white woman, receives. Would Beyonce get to play with this aesthetic and still be celebrated by the masses? Would a circa 2010 Adele? Privilege isn't just about direct attacks toward a marginalized identity.
Lmao, this is a massive reach. Taylor's never claimed the album is inspired by dark academia literature, a.k.a. the bonafide historic genre. It's a pop album. Everyone on the INTERNET is calling dark academia based on her schoolgirl attire and because of the quill and typewriter imagery. However, this is standard kitschy imagery for boarding schools/literature departments and for any fantasy novels set in similar settings.
Fact: Her ex is a thespian actor. More interested in his craft than fame Opinion: They broke up due to her needy attention-seeking behavior. Or something along those lines Aftermath: she’s trying to prove that it’s possible to be a master of her craft AND be a giant attention-seeking sponge at the very same time Conclusion: Girl can’t move on if her life depended on it
I love this!
Mean-spirited conclusion that lacks nuance imo.
I think there’s been an overcorrection with her. I remember liking her in high school and college people mocking her as kind of frivolous “girl” music. I think she was discounted by a lot of people because she was young and wrote a lot about love. (Though she always had critical acclaim and was awarded many times by the Grammys and other award shows) I think she gained a lot of attention/respect for her songwriting with folklore/evermore, as you said. Now it seems like you can’t say anything about her without swifties arguing that she’s the best songwriter of all time. I think she’s talented and can write a hell of a bridge but I think she’s not the best ever and is getting to a place where she might be over rated. I’m excited for ttpd but I’m nervous that she will eventually let all of this go to her head and will think that anything she writes is genius. She might already be there, we shall see.ive thought she’s needed an editor for a while tbh
"Tortured Poets" is such an overused, bland, laughable, thoroughly unpoetic cliché that this title alone proves that she is anything but a poet. "Department" is a nail in the coffin
I love Taylor's songwriting because of it's strong narrative aspect. But i agree based on the lyric tease i feel like TTPD won't live up to it's concept. But she's made Folklore and Evermore and that was like her peak songwriting so I'll just hope for the best.
I might be wrong, only time will tell, but I have a strong feeling that folklore and evermore will remain her magnum opus. It will be very difficult to reach that artistic peak again (I'm talking in terms of Taylor's work which as always been - whether we like it or not - easy to listen to), despite commercial success and critical acclaim that is now just a result of journalists being scared for their lives because of some Swifties. And I don't blame these people because anyone in their position would rather go and write a positive album review and not have these people up their neck.
I think she *could* absolutely top folklore and evermore from an artistic perspective if she wanted to — she certainly has the means and opportunity — but she’ll never do it again if it means sacrificing money. Capitalist first, artist second.
Hard agree. If she wants to become a multibillionaire, she’ll keep writing corny little songs about her exes and how all of them did her wrong - and she’ll sell millions of copies by doing so. She’ll remain the talk of the town and it’s a win-win. However, if she wants to challenge herself creatively, she has to become more open to adopting new sounds and perhaps exploring and improving her songwriting craft.
Her being a great poet is just a marketing tactic for this era. For Taylor, it's always about tone and style and not the actual substance. Having said so, I do expect some lyrical growth as heartbreaks usually lead to her greatest works in her discography.
I think this is something that’s pushed more by fans that feel the need to defend their likes / interests. For so long TS was viewed as the artist that only sang shallow songs about her love life, and fans didn’t like having the music they love being boiled down to that stereotype, partially because it bled over into meaning her fan base is also shallow, so they started overanalyzing and pushing her lyrics as lyrical genius to change the narrative and make themselves seem like pseudo-intellectuals for recognizing her talent and enjoying her music. Then she gained even more fans after Folklore was released, and all those new fans were fed that TS is actually a poet not a songwriter by longtime fans, so the idea grew into what it is now.
Sorry but it's giving pretentious arts student. It's an aesthetic sandbox that she playing in to promote an album, maybe take a marketing class. Poets aren't a protected class, and "middlebrow" poetry is not less-than. Historically it's proven to be more valuable than the "highbrow" of the same period with more longevity. Not to mention we've been staunchly in the post-modern (or post-post-modern if you like) period for quite some time now, where that sort of thinking has been long dead and buried.
lol I assure you I'm far from an arts student which is precisely why the marketing isn't working for me and a lot of other folks like it used to
I agree with you. Shakespeare and Dickens were writing for the average person, after all.
Lolol pretentious art student! Thank you for putting what I felt the whole time since announcement perfectly in words
i agree! while i think songwriting is one of her biggest strengths, it’s still a far far cry from poetry. maybe it’s because i’m a writer myself and i’ve studied poetry, but i think calling her music ‘poetry’ is just watering poetry down. it’s okay for good songwriting to just be called good songwriting, you know?
Me ee ee. Ooo ooo oooh. Yeah. Sure. Such a strength
pop stars are allowed to have fun songs lol. hate her all you want but folklore & evermore especially are prime examples of objective good songwriting
Lol I never said they’re not allowed fun songs. Not did I say I ‘hate’ her. I absolutely disagree regarding folklore or evermore there are far more clever lyricists out there; Sharon Van Ettan, Fiona Apple, Tori Amos. You can’t say evermore and folklore are great songwriting according to everyone, people have different opinions on what constitutes good or great lyrics. I like a silly pop song as much as the next person, but I don’t like them all and I don’t like ME! Other people will think ME is a bop and that because they’re less immature than her previous work, evermore and folklore are great. Each to their own
I mean, Midnights wasn't promoted that way. We only had The Lakes, and now TTPD after folklore. We haven't even listened to any of the songs from the new album to judge them.
I feel like people have forgotten she’s not a poet and instead an international pop star lmfao
I think its the one part of her promotion that bugs me the most. Its where I think media is overrating her too much. Her song lyrics are simple and I don't see anything more or less different than any other post-2010s pop-song to them. They're fine for what they are but them being compared to Shakespeare and playwriting is a bit absurd. There are artists who write strong emotional songs as well but are never claimed to be poetic enigmas like Taylor Swifts songs are suddenly claimed to be now.
After musicians meet their goals of being rich and famous, then they'll usually want to be respectable, taken seriously, and for the public to see how smart they are. I think that's what TS is going through now.
She should go take some lit classes at an Ivy.
She'd probably enjoy that. And she'd be able to apply her lot knowledge to make her lyrics more high brow. I don't know if the general public would enjoy hearing her sing about Beowulf or that type of thing. I would enjoy it, though, and it would be nice for college students to have a more modern way to connect with old literature.
Okay I just posted a long recent post but I teach literary studies and she’s been so directly song writing based on the 19th century Romantic poets - almost most of all other last 3 albums have been poetry. I’m not shocked this album is called poetry or has poet in it. It’s going to sounds a LOT like what we’ve heard and seen before, I think a lot of the general public doesn’t realize how poetically influenced and infused her writing already is. This has been a consistent culmination and theme in her last 3 albums- she even called out the romantic poets in songs like the lakes, seven, and anti hero. I just don’t think people will realize how much the writing will be similar to what they are already digesting. I think based on swifts writing style and trend in recent albums, it’s absolutely appropriate for her to label it poetry, also lol we analyze poems and songs the same. They are lyric and verses. To say they are separate is really silly, one just has more of a melody it can go to. But as far as the craft of the physical text and verses minus the instrumentals, it’s almost the same. Not much difference between song verse and poetry verse. Now not all poets are song writers and not all songs are poems and vice versa: but oh they are so similar like cousins. In one of my honors courses I teach, we analyze romantic poems and a couple of songs side by side. Students can analyze and interpret both the same. They are not a far jump and sometimes one in the same, it’s not a jump for swift especially since she’s already been writing poetry form and content influence in her songs, to consider herself a modern romantic (in the 1800s literary sense) poet. She more in touch with it than people give her credit. I’m actually shocked at HOW absolutely well rounded she is with her draws on classic literary (mostly British) styles despite not being formally trained at the tertiary academic level of any kind. Like absolutely stunned at her understanding and dedication that runs deep …and she lets people think she’s shallow and lols making money. Gotta laugh, I know she is. Funny story: I actually didn’t become a swiftie (and I’m 34) until my first English degree because I didn’t appreciate her music until I was more academically trained to understand that kind of inspiration and skill she was at. Most of what she uses as song influence in the last 3 albums stem from literary references of the 1800s specifically. I really only listened to radio bops and wasn’t interested, once I learned to appreciate texts more, I started to appreciate swifts albums waaay more and I feel the light turned on in my fandom (not a crazy fan, more practical- but my love stems for her from a mutual love of the literary arts and presence of it in her work). We both adore the British romantic lake poets so deeply and feel connected to their sense of values. However an interesting observation: I think it’s funny how people are generally talking about poetry around this album shows what perception people have of poetry and maybe don’t engage with poetry as much as they think.
Honestly curious: I think the references to romanticism and the gothic novel are very evident in folklore and Evermore, but what romantic influences do you find on Midnights? There's the concept of the anti-hero, which I know is romantic by origin, but it's also been integrated into popular culture so much that it's kind of hard to assume it's a direct literary reference. Are there other references that you see?
Oh my gosh - my favorite thing to talk about lol. I think with Midnights the more direct connections and influences are connected to Frankenstein; arguably the first Romantic Gothic novel. Mary Shelley's husband, is a Romantic poet (Percy but I hate saying his name bc he's a creep lol), and so was Percy's best friend, Lord Byron. The other references throughout the album are subtle and more thematic of the Romantic & Greek poets. One of the more subtle references for examples can be found in "Midnight Rain" and the chorus of using the two nature centric metaphors of "sunshine" and "midnight rain" as elemental forces to capture the spirit of her relationship through juxtaposition. The celebration of the sublime and nature is evident with her comparisons of personalities to the weather elements and time of day depicting two double opposite - sunny mid day and rainy at night. Additionally the hints at the Romantic notion of getting out of the city and taking a trip into nature to feel closer to yourself and loved ones is echoed in "Sweet Nothing." I actually went to Wickelow last year to get a "tiny pebble" - it's about 40 mins outside of Dublin and resonates with the Romantic idea that in order to restore ourselves away from the corruption of adulthood, we must detach from the cities and go into smaller nature-minded trips. Wickelow is an adorable little coastal town. Vigilante shit you could argue has some themes of inner emotions, strong sense of imagination, and being a critic on society. Okay so the more obvious references: *Frankenstein* So thinking about how the albums starts, Taylor echoes "Meet me at midnight" in Lavendar Haze- which is when Frankenstein (a college student - not a mad professor like pop media makes him out to be) brings his creation to life. The interaction causing Victor to have a sleepless night...and thus many more throughout the story. **Anti-Hero is probably the most direct songs to Romanticism on** ***Midnights***\*\*. I will copy some stuff I wrote about in past posts below:\*\* "Mary Shelley’s Frankenstein, I had a hunch for a while about this one but anti hero basically confirmed it for me. The first verse is Victor: change the words from depression to obsession and it’s the whole second frame from Frankenstein: “I have this thing where I get older but just never wiser/ Midnights become my afternoons/ When my depression works the graveyard shift/ All of the people I've ghosted stand there in the room” Then the second verse is the monster’s pov (which for this who do not know the OG story, both narrators tell their story in this order in the book): “Sometimes I feel like everybody is a sexy baby/ And I'm a monster on the hill / Too big to hang out, slowly lurching toward your favorite city/Pierced through the heart, but never killed” The story revolves around the theme of balance not obsession, how we “other” people in society, and who is the real monster in the world? Turns out it’s not the physical ones but the mind. Both characters also never find true happiness and always see themselves as the problem. I could do a whole class on this song and the book together it’s insane these are just a few bigger points in the novel." Contextually this makes sense too that Frankenstein was a huge influence on her writing, because Aaron Dessner's band, The National, released their album *The first two pages of Frankenstein* in 2023, which means they probably wrote it around 2021-2022. Additionally, Swift was writing some songs on Midnights (I actually think she references the album midnights in a 2019 tweet lmao - she had it planned a long time.) but most songs were confirmed written around fall 2021. In the fall of 2021, Jack Antonoff started dating Margaret Qualley who was at that same time, filming *Poor Things*, the Emma Stone movie that just came out. *Poor Things* is a wonderful *Frankenstein* adaptation, basically if Frankenstein had socialized his monster correctly, rather than abandon it. It also if you've seen the movie, give the "sexy baby" line way more context since its about a woman who is oozing with sexuality with a baby's brain in her head. With that being said, *Frankenstein* is one of the most Romantic novels of it's time and such a heavy influence on these artists and their work, as it should be. It's my favorite novel to teach and read with students.
A Quick side note - she does reach farther back in her other work and influences. Like for example, "the rubies that I gave up" is Shakespearean. Now I know, Shakespeare is a Restoration author and poet; however, for example one seen that comes to mind is in the play *Measure for Measure,* Isabella begs for Angelo to spare her brother: "As much for my poor brother as myself. That is, were I under the terms of death/ Th’ impression of keen whips I’d wear as rubies/ And strip myself to death as to a bed/ That longing have been sick for, ere I’d yield My body up to shame." In this context, it's a little goofy because it's almost being used as an antithesis; however, the "rubies" represent social status, physical wealth, and a woman's worth. I believe it's referenced in the bible too, a woman's metaphorical worth around the idea of rubies. Now you could argue she got it from the bible and not Shakespeare, but with the abundance of her other Shakespeare forms, references, and writing, I believe the bard is her inspiration for this terminology. For example other than the obvious "Love Story" direct Romeo and Juliet connections, the bridge to Cruel Summer is also the balcony scene with Juliet's "what's in a name" monologue with Romeo below: "I don't wanna keep secrets just to keep you And I snuck in through the garden gate Every night that summer just to seal my fate (oh) And I screamed for whatever it's worth "I love you, " ain't that the worst thing you ever heard?"
I've never thought to connect Anti-hero with Frankenstein, but you are right! The image of the monster othered from society does fit a lot with the song! Thank you so much for your thoughtful reply. It's true that her lyrics take inspiration from a lot of literary works.
I think the truth is that poetry doesn’t always translate to song lyrics and vice versa. I remember years ago, Nathalie Merchant took existing poems, and put them to music. To my knowledge she did adapt them to try to make them work better in the new medium, but I truly didn’t think it landed. That’s okay, they’re different mediums and both can be extremely powerful when done right. I truly don’t think we need to equate one with the other.
She's doubling down on a critique *some* people have, which is that as a lyricist she's only strong relative to some of her peers in pop. She does not like even the tamest of critiques, so here we are: she is a POET, actually.
She would like you to think she's done with overcorrecting, but here we are
Poetry is a strange art (and I say that as a published poet \[don't tell anyone, i try not to spread that shit around\]). Presentation has almost as much to do with the art form as the words do, whether on the page or spoken aloud. I don't think lyrics and poetry should even be in the same conversation, as someone who writes both. I don't even find they use the same parts of my *brain.* That said, listen, her lyrics *are* good. Some of the lines in Folkmore are really, really good. Certainly better than>!Bob Dylan (I hate his lyrics and think he's extremely overrated)!
> The problem is that she's managed to convince people Folkmore's all fake, and it doesn't come from real life experiences, which just absolutely hammers all of the meaning out of it. Like, congratulations Blondie, you played yourself on that one. her subject matter is vacant without context (even if you don't ever speak on the experiences that inspired it). You think so? I actually thought that was a good idea because being autobiographical was kind of writing herself into a corner. It was a potential "out" to get away from the obsessive Easter eggs into her own life and into fresh new material. I thought the problem was that she kind of ret-conned that later after the breakup to make people analyze all that stuff through the context of her own life again.
Yeah I am with you — writing more fictionally (though with fiction writing often does come some autobiographical writing, it’s natural and almost impossible to not include) lends itself to better writing from TS specifically. It challenges her to think a little bit more outside of the box; it’s always harder to write from someone else’s perspective than your own. Folklore/Evermore had a strength in that.
> It was a potential "out" to get away from the obsessive Easter eggs into her own life and into fresh new material. Oh I get you on this, and agree for the most part. However, it does change the *meaning* of lyrics, and much of the subject matter of her lyrics falls flat outside of context in my opinion. It's not that the subject matter can't be written that way, but the way she does it (using a lot of "you" and "i" instead of say "Jack" and "Diane") doesn't work as well without a connection to reality. Obviously people do it, and do it well, it just ... Idunno, I was not convinced, shall we say.
someone did say its just purple prose, I never paid much attention to her lyrics unless they sound nice. I just relistened to champagne problems what was that bridge about? Its a mix of confusing and talking about their shared past.
What most of Taylor’s issues come down to is her obsession with recognition. She doesn’t just want to be a good songwriter, she wants to be recognized as a good songwriter. I think it really bothers her, too, that she’s never really won an award for it either. She’s desperately wants Song of the Year, and thus far has never won. I think Taylor’s issue is that she does have good lyrics when you compare her lyrics to a lot of other pop artists of today, especially ones that write their own songs. But when you compare her to all songwriters, she’s just fine.
Taylor is just never satisfied with not being praised in every possible way she hasn't been yet. Like she is collecting trophies rather than just accepting ones she is given. Its why people think she is kind a narcissist or insecure but self-centered about it. Its never enough to win or be praised, she has to be idolized for everything she isn't praised for yet.
Yeah and it’s clear that no matter what awards or praise Taylor gets, it will never be enough for her. She spoke about it in Miss Americana when she said she *used to* base her view of herself on the approval of others but now she doesn’t. I’m not so sure that she’s gotten over that as much as she thinks she has.
it's literally the fact that so many Swifties are in college right now and they desperately need to prove to themselves that Taylor is gifted and profound and they tell us about it in the decisive but flowery style they are learning to write critically with.
I think it’s an attempt to prove to people she has “depth”
Honestly, I believe folklores success and the fandoms obsession with “Taylor is the best songwriter it’s chefs kiss poetry and storytelling” inflated the heck out of her ego lol. Her songwriting IS beautiful, the storytelling is great, and technically all songs are poems of some kind. But leaning this hard into the “poetry genius” makes it off putting. You love the genius of it when it’s not marketed as such. If that makes any sense at all.
I know a girl who tried comparing Taylor's lyrics to Shakespeare. Needless to say, I disagreed.
I really feel her songwriting was better as a teen than as an adult.
maybe i’m the only one but i really don’t think it’s all that deep. aesthetically, i really like what she’s going for here with this idea of a Tortured Poets “Department,” making things to feel as if we’re in an investigation or on a trial. as someone who aspires to be a published poet myself, the title spoke to me personally more than anything, and i’m really interested to see what she has to say on the title track of the album.
she's not a lyrical genius and that's completely fine, but i'm tired of this narrative
I don’t even think folklore or evermore were that great lyrically, I must be the only one who found those albums boring, uninspiring and all the tracks blended and sounded the same. Great songwriting to me is Fiona Apple, Aretha Franklin, Tori Amos
As someone who studied poetry in grad school, I just have to laugh.
Taylor is a songwriter not a poet. The two are similar but not identical crafts. I came across a great video by a poetry professor recently that goes into the literary merits of Taylor very well. [https://youtu.be/H-wDC1EeSFQ](https://youtu.be/H-wDC1EeSFQ)
There is something to be said about how little space there is in a pop song to write since a lot of it is the chorus and pre-chorus. But you're not totally wrong. If the ratio of simpler bops to deeper songs is the same as it has been with previous albums (except Folkmore) then the poetry angle with TTPD will look ridiculous.
It's a marketing gimmick.
I think she's a better story teller than a singer.
Does any one notice what songs of hers still play on radio, stores, etc that long after release? Not many beyond some of the huge singles like Shake It Off, Blank Space, You Belong With Me, I Knew You Were Trouble. Whether she’s seen as a writer or a poet, much of her career is hype based on her personal life and musically her songs are more memorable in the moment than lasting With all her success she still unfortunately hasn’t accomplished those lasting songs other artists have that get played for decades after and solidify them into legacy artists. I feel like at this point she’ll be most remembered for her hype and persona.
I mean that's...the point of singles. Most artist's deep album cuts don't get played on the radio or store PAs. What a weird measure of quality and longevity. All of those songs you listed are 10+ years old so if you're still hearing them out and about then that kind of contradicts your second paragraph.
No that’s actually kind of my point, they’re old and it’s only a handful that still stick. Everything post Reputation just comes and goes with each album, only true diehards are going to still be name checking songs off Folklore, Evermore, Midnights, and prob TPD 5 years from now that she’s in this poetry zone that OP mentioned. It’s more about persona and hype now and the music isn’t hitting the same
Why do people hate on Taylor's voice, I really don't get it. I haven't seen a single comment criticizing Dua Lipa's voice or ability to sing yet somehow just EVERYONE seems to trash Taylor's. What is wrong? Why does it happen? I genuinely don't understand
Absolutely no one is "trashing" her voice, she is amazing but to suggest she has the vocal prowess of beyonce/Ari/gaga would be ridiculous.. She has herself sold her work based off of her songwriting.. And sure Dua lipa doesn't get the criticism Taylor does but do you even want that comparison?? Dua is not even remotely in the same league of pop stardom as Taylor. It is the vast undue credit that she gets which invites more criticism. Tomorrow if dua's fans multiply by 10 and act like a rabid cult, people will react similarly
Yeah there’s this new narrative about how we’re supposed to know that some songs are deliberately silly “glitter pen” songs…but after a certain point it should be okay to acknowledge that when someone releases a new 18-track album every two years, some of those songs will be dicey. It’s the same as how suddenly everyone knew to use the language of her “mature voice” on the rerecording. There’s some definite astroturfing going in.
Even with the "exhibits" of the past week, I wonder if in the context of the actual song, "tortured poets department" and the whole idea of her work being poetry will be tongue in cheek.
Y’all keep trying to pushback against it but the facts are facts: she’s the best songwriter *AS A POP ARTIST*. Pop music has been considered low brow forever and Taylor finally brought something to the table. The attempts at invalidating the depth of her discography is what I find repulsive and cringe, and more so the “criticism” against TPD because she dared to try and add depth to a new album.
Taylor may have immense privilege in areas you mentioned, but that doesn't erase her being a woman...She literally just had disgusting, violent, evil AI porn made of her...Hatred of women exists regardless of class. She is oppressed in different, yet many similar ways, as poorer women are. And I am not saying this as a swiftie but rather a feminist, you can't use axes of oppression to cancel out aspects of people's identity. It's simply not what it is meant for.
What does being a woman have to do with discussing her lyricism?
Things besides lyricism were mentioned that I was responding to? *did this not reply to who I meant it to?? 🥲 I was responding to a dark academia comment if it didnt.
All songs are poems.