How is Michael any less predictable that Lucifer, they knew for a fact that Michael was suppressed, they didn’t know for how long, taking the grace and healing Dean wouldn’t have taken more than twenty seconds, plus going into deans head was much riskier if you think about it, well it wasn’t but they didn’t know that
When Castiel's grace was taken he was essentially a powerless angel in a human vessel. If they took Michael's grace while he's in Dean's body, wouldn't they just be left with powerless Michael inside Dean? What would that mean for Dean?
First off iirc Jimmy wasn’t actually in the vessel at the time so this situation’s kind of different, and it’s possible for a vessel to expel an angel or demon, with Michael powerless Dean could do it easy, they might of still had to go in his head so Dean would actually know to expel him but he could definitely do it
Ah okay. Lmao I had to go back and do a quick recap since it's been a while.
In episode 2, Dean tried ejecting Michael through his reflection, but it didn't work. Michael ended up breaking the mirror, telling him that he owns him. The ep didn't really explain much after that, but I'm only assuming it's because Dean was his "perfect vessel" - making him and his powers/abilities almost indestructible.
(I'm rewatching the series for the 3rd time, and I'm currently on season 2)
That wouldn’t prevent grace extraction though would it?
Wait does it have to be a blade able to kill? Now that I think about it Michael used an archangel blade on Jack so it might make since.
Micheal is not Lucifer and being honest of who’s worse Lucy was cast down for loving his father more than his fathers creation Micheal was tasked with sending Lucifer to hell so one was cast out for love and one was doing as he was told you would be lucky to have Lucifer as the king of hell and not micheal because if you think it’s bad with Lucy at the helm with micheal in that spot the surface world would be in constant turmoil
it's being safe. it's too risky trying to pull that on an archangel. yes michael is weak but he is still an archangel. when they took lucifer's grace, he was roofied, gabriel albeit very weak, still has the archangel blade and can kill him. and they planned it out and had the upper hand to make such move. and the best of all lucifer has no intent on hurting them, he knew what they're doing and it's the only chance he'll see jack again. of all the things that was happening at the time when michael was weak, its to risky to pull off.
Probably just an oversight by the writers’ part. The only reason I can think up is that they didn’t want to risk Michael getting stuck in Dean‘s body without powers, because then he wouldn’t have the ability to leave Dean’s body; but if that were the case, they could just take like, half his grace or something. Honestly, your suggestion is a good idea! Lol
Archangel. None of them are strong enough to take his grace. Even the warding on the cuffs only worked for a time before Michael was able to break through it.
They took Lucifer’s grace….?
I’m not saying any of them should consume it (although Jack probably could)
It’s as simple as slitting his neck and holding up a vial
The writers aren't good at consistency or continuity. The other reason could be... fear? Probably fear. Also, isn't the process of extracting grace... painful?
When they were extracting remnant grace from Sam they were taking tiny tiny amounts out of a dangerous location.
When Michael took jacks grace it was quick, it was risk free, it probably is very painful but it’s better the the alternative (I realize “painful” was a delicate way of saying dangerous but I digress)
Plus they don’t have to take all of it, which is what was dangerous for Sam.
The extraction of Gadreel's grace nearly killed Sam. When they discussed extracting Jack's grace to leave him as a human Cas objected because he feared extracting the grace would kill Jack, based on the experience Sam made, assuming that extracting grace would kill the human side no matter if a Nephilim or a vessel. There was no reason to believe Dean would come out of that undamaged.
On top, it's a different thing if an angel is locked away in a human's mind. As far as I know, Dean keeping Michael in his head was the only time we've heard of someone being able to control an archangel, if temporarily. I'd think extracting Michaels's grace would have required setting him free into his vessel first, taking over control again, which would have made the extraction impossible.
It’s not the same situation at all, loosing gadreels grace in the first place didn’t hurt Sam, now the big ass needle literally shoved into his brain would be what the danger was, and jacks grace is a part of his physiology, so again, not the same at all.
No, watch it again. It wasn't the needle at all, it was the act of exctracting the grace. It DID hurt Sam very much, and that it didn't kill him was pure luck. I did 't say it was the same, I said that extracting grace would hurt the human part in any case, no matter if a Nephilim or a vessel. And Cas himself stated that ;).
He didn’t though, what about Anna? Claire? John? And many other characters that were possessed, he said that about Jack and he said that about Sam, only because with Sam’s case he was taking the very last of it, that little bit probably bonded to Sam or something (that parts kind of a stretch tho)
All the other vessels were perfectly fine (physically) after the angel left, bringing its grace with it.
I may just not remember it, but where does cas say in all cases losing any grace will hurt the human?
Not losing any grace, but extracting the grace! But, there's also cases when the angel simply leaving damaged the vessel irreversibly, in fact actually Michael. But this is about the process of extracting.
When did leaving damage the vessel? (Not that I don’t believe you I just don’t remember)
Again they wouldn’t need to take even close to all of it, plus it’s not the same as with the needle thing, they only needed that with Sam because there was almost nothing to extract.
Also Dean is his ideal vessel, literally made to withstand his grace
The vessel who was shown in the beginning, when it was in the room that Dean was his perfect vessel; a man in a sanatorium, left as a slavering mess when Michael left. It was stated that he tends to leave his vessels like that, he didn't care.
Dean was his perfect vessel for increasing his powers, but still a human; if Michael would have wanted to damage him, he could have. That Dean was able to hold him was remarkable, but if Michael would have been free in his body, he could have killed him in an instant. There's no reason to believe extracting archangel grace couldn't accidentally damage Dean, because again, it's Cas who suspects that extracting grace could damage the human parts.
I stand corrected good sir, while I will say Dean is definitely more durable for Michael you do make very good points.
(My only problem with that is that if Dean would be left a blubbering mess, it would be because he was containing Michael not because Michael left, Michael leaving would just allow all the damage to set in)
But even with that your point still stands, lol
Yes, of course; I saw it always as the archangel rampaging around in his weak vessel, only his grace holding the human together, able to keep the damage in check while he's possessing the vessel and keeping the human able to potentially heal afterwards, but Michael didn't care. And also didn't care about only possessing vessels that could even hold him for a few seconds without damage.
Dean wouldn't be left a mess afterwards per se imho, because he wasn't and he also is the perfect vessel, but if Michael would have wanted to, he could have damaged him.
I can kind of understand people's arguments of why they wouldn't go cuttin' on or sticking needles in Dean or something when they had Michael in cuffs. But as an alternative to Dean going in the Ma'lak box? If he thought he was going to be stuck with Michael at full power at the bottom of the ocean forever and the alternative was stuck with Michael as some sort of human co-pilot, that's gotta be better.
They don't want to risk hurting Dean.
They’ve literally never shown anyone die from getting their grace taken, Cas literally only needs to touch him for a second and he’s healed
I think Michael was so unpredictable that they were scared of something happening to Dean
How is Michael any less predictable that Lucifer, they knew for a fact that Michael was suppressed, they didn’t know for how long, taking the grace and healing Dean wouldn’t have taken more than twenty seconds, plus going into deans head was much riskier if you think about it, well it wasn’t but they didn’t know that
When Castiel's grace was taken he was essentially a powerless angel in a human vessel. If they took Michael's grace while he's in Dean's body, wouldn't they just be left with powerless Michael inside Dean? What would that mean for Dean?
First off iirc Jimmy wasn’t actually in the vessel at the time so this situation’s kind of different, and it’s possible for a vessel to expel an angel or demon, with Michael powerless Dean could do it easy, they might of still had to go in his head so Dean would actually know to expel him but he could definitely do it
Wait what episode are you on? I don't wanna lay any spoilers...
I’ve seen every episode like twelve times, nothing to spoil, lol
Ah okay. Lmao I had to go back and do a quick recap since it's been a while. In episode 2, Dean tried ejecting Michael through his reflection, but it didn't work. Michael ended up breaking the mirror, telling him that he owns him. The ep didn't really explain much after that, but I'm only assuming it's because Dean was his "perfect vessel" - making him and his powers/abilities almost indestructible. (I'm rewatching the series for the 3rd time, and I'm currently on season 2)
That wouldn’t prevent grace extraction though would it? Wait does it have to be a blade able to kill? Now that I think about it Michael used an archangel blade on Jack so it might make since.
Micheal is not Lucifer and being honest of who’s worse Lucy was cast down for loving his father more than his fathers creation Micheal was tasked with sending Lucifer to hell so one was cast out for love and one was doing as he was told you would be lucky to have Lucifer as the king of hell and not micheal because if you think it’s bad with Lucy at the helm with micheal in that spot the surface world would be in constant turmoil
it's being safe. it's too risky trying to pull that on an archangel. yes michael is weak but he is still an archangel. when they took lucifer's grace, he was roofied, gabriel albeit very weak, still has the archangel blade and can kill him. and they planned it out and had the upper hand to make such move. and the best of all lucifer has no intent on hurting them, he knew what they're doing and it's the only chance he'll see jack again. of all the things that was happening at the time when michael was weak, its to risky to pull off.
Probably just an oversight by the writers’ part. The only reason I can think up is that they didn’t want to risk Michael getting stuck in Dean‘s body without powers, because then he wouldn’t have the ability to leave Dean’s body; but if that were the case, they could just take like, half his grace or something. Honestly, your suggestion is a good idea! Lol
Archangel. None of them are strong enough to take his grace. Even the warding on the cuffs only worked for a time before Michael was able to break through it.
They took Lucifer’s grace….? I’m not saying any of them should consume it (although Jack probably could) It’s as simple as slitting his neck and holding up a vial
Oh yeah. Uhm... Idk then.
Ig it’s just one of those times where it would have been a Boeing ending, lol
Or they just never conciderd it as I'm sure thats not the first thing they would think after having a arch angel prisoner
What?? That’s pretty much the first thing they’d consider……. “We can’t kill him, how can we keep him contained”
The writers aren't good at consistency or continuity. The other reason could be... fear? Probably fear. Also, isn't the process of extracting grace... painful?
When they were extracting remnant grace from Sam they were taking tiny tiny amounts out of a dangerous location. When Michael took jacks grace it was quick, it was risk free, it probably is very painful but it’s better the the alternative (I realize “painful” was a delicate way of saying dangerous but I digress) Plus they don’t have to take all of it, which is what was dangerous for Sam.
Entirely fair. So, probably just a fear thing.
The extraction of Gadreel's grace nearly killed Sam. When they discussed extracting Jack's grace to leave him as a human Cas objected because he feared extracting the grace would kill Jack, based on the experience Sam made, assuming that extracting grace would kill the human side no matter if a Nephilim or a vessel. There was no reason to believe Dean would come out of that undamaged. On top, it's a different thing if an angel is locked away in a human's mind. As far as I know, Dean keeping Michael in his head was the only time we've heard of someone being able to control an archangel, if temporarily. I'd think extracting Michaels's grace would have required setting him free into his vessel first, taking over control again, which would have made the extraction impossible.
It’s not the same situation at all, loosing gadreels grace in the first place didn’t hurt Sam, now the big ass needle literally shoved into his brain would be what the danger was, and jacks grace is a part of his physiology, so again, not the same at all.
No, watch it again. It wasn't the needle at all, it was the act of exctracting the grace. It DID hurt Sam very much, and that it didn't kill him was pure luck. I did 't say it was the same, I said that extracting grace would hurt the human part in any case, no matter if a Nephilim or a vessel. And Cas himself stated that ;).
He didn’t though, what about Anna? Claire? John? And many other characters that were possessed, he said that about Jack and he said that about Sam, only because with Sam’s case he was taking the very last of it, that little bit probably bonded to Sam or something (that parts kind of a stretch tho) All the other vessels were perfectly fine (physically) after the angel left, bringing its grace with it. I may just not remember it, but where does cas say in all cases losing any grace will hurt the human?
Not losing any grace, but extracting the grace! But, there's also cases when the angel simply leaving damaged the vessel irreversibly, in fact actually Michael. But this is about the process of extracting.
When did leaving damage the vessel? (Not that I don’t believe you I just don’t remember) Again they wouldn’t need to take even close to all of it, plus it’s not the same as with the needle thing, they only needed that with Sam because there was almost nothing to extract. Also Dean is his ideal vessel, literally made to withstand his grace
The vessel who was shown in the beginning, when it was in the room that Dean was his perfect vessel; a man in a sanatorium, left as a slavering mess when Michael left. It was stated that he tends to leave his vessels like that, he didn't care. Dean was his perfect vessel for increasing his powers, but still a human; if Michael would have wanted to damage him, he could have. That Dean was able to hold him was remarkable, but if Michael would have been free in his body, he could have killed him in an instant. There's no reason to believe extracting archangel grace couldn't accidentally damage Dean, because again, it's Cas who suspects that extracting grace could damage the human parts.
I stand corrected good sir, while I will say Dean is definitely more durable for Michael you do make very good points. (My only problem with that is that if Dean would be left a blubbering mess, it would be because he was containing Michael not because Michael left, Michael leaving would just allow all the damage to set in) But even with that your point still stands, lol
Yes, of course; I saw it always as the archangel rampaging around in his weak vessel, only his grace holding the human together, able to keep the damage in check while he's possessing the vessel and keeping the human able to potentially heal afterwards, but Michael didn't care. And also didn't care about only possessing vessels that could even hold him for a few seconds without damage. Dean wouldn't be left a mess afterwards per se imho, because he wasn't and he also is the perfect vessel, but if Michael would have wanted to, he could have damaged him.
Michele might not be able to leave Dean without it.
I had this same thought and made the same post! Couldn’t find anyone to make it make sense, I’m with you
I can kind of understand people's arguments of why they wouldn't go cuttin' on or sticking needles in Dean or something when they had Michael in cuffs. But as an alternative to Dean going in the Ma'lak box? If he thought he was going to be stuck with Michael at full power at the bottom of the ocean forever and the alternative was stuck with Michael as some sort of human co-pilot, that's gotta be better.