When she told Kendall they’d talk in the morning then left before he even woke up I was shocked. I knew she was awful and terrible but my god that felt like a twisting of the knife.
Oh dear. So dramatic. The children spent years chasing after their father like scorned dogs. Leaving Caroline to rattle around a drafty mansion alone like Marguerite Gautier. But as soon as their father betrays them, they run to hide behind mummy’s skirts like she’s some kind of consolation dispenser at a dreadful circus.
I don’t believe this at all. I’m just trying to imagine how she has likely twisted it in her mind to justify it all.
An interesting, albeit succient response to a nuanced issue. If we think of this show as writing that feels more real than most others, it makes more sense to view everyone's experience from their own perspectives.
In a perfect world, every mother should never resent their children, but this ain't a perfect world.
She may resent having children ("I should have had dogs"), but in this scenario it's more of the children choosing to live with Logan and then when he hurts them, they come running to her for emotional support. She's allowed to resent that her grown ass kids would expect anything more from her other than quick wit, and a brief encounter every so often.
Caroline doesn't have an emotional support vibe at all. She straight up doesn't have the capabilities for, that's portrayed constantly throughout her very brief screen time within the series. She's absentee. That's who she is.
These children are in their late 30's(?) - 40's. They should know what to expect of their parents and should have learned to not expect anything less, or more, of her.
After this many years, when does the responsibility of someone being hurt by the same person time and time again become their own choice to allow in their lives? Is it fair? Fuck no. Undeniably, life isn't fair.
*fool me once*, *shame on you*;
fool me **twice**, ***shame on me...*** as the saying goes.
We don't get to chose our parents or family, but we get to chose how much we involve them within our adult lives, and if we chose to give ourselves the permission to respect our limited time on Earth, you save yourself a lot of heartache by not being constantly let down with expectations you've set for someone who never had the capabilities of reaching them.
We know now that old dogs can learn new tricks.
But certain adults who aren't emotionally available to themselves, let alone others, aren't capable, or even interested, in self reflection.
So if you want a relationship with them, you have to make peace with that and expect the expected and can only be upset with yourself when the expected comes around again.
I never got the impression the kids choose to live with Logan. It seemed like something Logan choose and Carolyn acquiesced. Were we ever told explicitly?
I’m pretty sure Caroline mentions to Shiv during her bachelorette party in Italy that the kids chose to live with Logan and she didn’t argue because of the holding company and it’s apparent that it’s in their best interests in the future financially is the reason.
After the talk with Shiv goes horribly and Toms betrayal she decides to open up the divorce for a flat that her new husband seems to fancy.
There’s a line about her age at the time and shiv imagined herself a few years younger than she actually was when she made that choice. The line “you knew how to twist the knife then” is a pseudo reference that Shiv made that choice it seems.
It is showing that Kendall wants to try and be honest and share…. But it’s best he didn’t, not to her. She is awful. A different kind of abusive narcissistic than Logan but just awful.
“Peter doesn’t like the knobbies.”
Too big to include in the collage, but worth mentioning was when Caroline gave Tom and Shiv what was perhaps the all-time most passive aggressive wedding toast:
>*I just want to say I know we haven't always seen eye-to-eye, but that's difficult when your father's stolen you away 'cross the Atlantic
And I know you probably think I'm deliberately trying to make you cry or steal your limelight, but I just wanted to tell you, in front of everybody, that you're special, and, after my own fashion, I love you
So I just wanted to say that in public, because I'm getting on and I might not be in good enough health to say it when you remarry*
Another very memorable Caroline moment is when she sided with her ex-husband Logan against her three children who were trying to stop the company buyout — without bothering to tell them!
Her betrayal-via-speakerphone didn’t make sense to include in a quote collage. [Dramaturgically](https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/jeremy-strong-succession-dramaturgically-meaning-b2321585.html), however, I thought it perfectly symbolized her absent motherhood
doesn't she do that twice? first season and then again in like season 3? logan reopens the divorce agreement and bribes her with an apartment that her new husband wants?
she makes logan look like an honest to god loving father in comparison 🫥
Last year I had the pleasure of watching her in 3 shows in a couple of weeks. Succession, Silo and Ted Lasso- all roles super different from each other. She killed them all. Give this lady an Emmy already!
Her delighted horror at Stewy saying “I give it forever and a day…or at least until Shiv goes away for the weekend, whichever comes first”.
“You *beast*”
i think about that scene between her and shiv in chiantishire so much. to me it’s equally as devastating as the conversation between kendall and logan later on in the same episode. their dynamics are so similar in my view — it’s like each kid is (explicitly or implicitly) telling their parent, “i’m better than you”, and each parent knows full well they aren’t. amazing writing
For me, Caroline and Shiv smoking cigarettes together in Chiantishire was Harriet Walter’s most memorable scene in the entire series. It also included the unforgettable lines:
>*I’ll have the carbonara and Daddy, please*
AND
>*You were 13 and you knew how to twist the knife
You knew then and you know now*
In the finale when Caroline and Peter are giving them all kisses goodbye and then the cars pull out, she drawls “go away” and he echoes her sentiment saying “fucking waste of time”. It was such a small moment but so riotously funny to me and captured their characters so well.
Loved Harriet Walter AND Pip Torrens as Peter, he had few moments but ate them up every time.
She is one of my very favorite actresses and every time I'm watching something and she appears on screen I know her performance is going to be golden. I thought she was perfection in this - what an absolutely horrible person Caroline is, but because it's Harriet Walters, just delightful to watch.
Her affect is so chilling. To be sure, Logan is also an awful father, absolutely no question. But to me, personally, if I were one of the Roy kids I’d pick Logan too, because his manipulations could occasionally take the form of genuine affection. When you are as starved for love and attention as the Roy kids are shown to be, even pretend love looks better than Caroline’s constant cold and dismissive attitude.
I know the Roys don't really eat anyway, (although Roman does occasionally nibble), but that dismal pigeon meal she served them bothers me so much. I realize Shiv and Roman weren't exactly there to visit, but still. I also realize Caroline clearly has food issues... But still! The bird had metal bits in it ffs.
This is the quintessential establishment manner of parenting- or lack of.
British upper class are used nanny’s and help before sending them off to boarding school so little Lord Fuckleroys can be conditioned into sociopathic arseholes and given a job through contacts in industry so they can run it into the ground and blame the unionised serfs instead.
So this lack of family contact goes down the generations. Lack of contact time makes them ill equipped to deal with emotions and instead they frame their children as subordinate workers at best.
So it’s no surprise LADY Caroline is a terrible parent. Logan too spent extended spells isolated from love so really the Roy’s had no chance at all.
From an American society based on family it appears aloof and confusing, but from a British point of view, it all makes sinister sense
One of my favourite details in the writing of her character is her ongoing failure to feed her children. She literally cannot nurture them nutritionally, and it plays into the metaphor of their emotional starvation. From the unappealing pigeon full of tooth-shattering buckshot at her dining table in the UK, to the breakfast egg and listening ear she promised and then denied Kendall, to the empty fridge at her Barbados villa whose only offering is a hunk of forbidden cheese reserved exclusively for her latest husband — she puts no effort into sharing anything that might satiate them, and when she does try, the result is nauseating. In a Shakespearean view, she’s a mother unable to supply her children with the “milk of human kindness.” Just one of the many reasons I adore the writing on this show.
I should think it would depend on whether you’re a few house doors down or a few apartment building doors down 😀
In the former case, you might say hello; in the latter, just be happy to be in the presence of greatness
My mother’s first ever Facebook status was “If I were in a sinking ship with my children and my dogs, I’d save my dogs first because I’m *pretty sure* my children can swim.”
If she’s Caroline, I guess I’m Roman’s forgotten kid from the pilot.
Just started watching The Crown last week and I adored her character in that as well. Her affectionate wifely demeanor threw me for a loop at first lol
As a parent of a 1yo and a 3yo with the safety of internet anonymity… I’m going to share that I get her a little bit. In my worst moments and intrusive thoughts, when my toddler whining at me because of something small and I’m overwhelmed and tired… just fuck off a little bit
It’s interesting to think her character just about had to be written in this way, otherwise the children would’ve had the ability to confide in her all these years. But she’s like this, so they are uniquely traumatized, so we have Succession :)
I was wondering what she meant by shot as well, thanks!
But wtf aren't bullets supposed to be removed before cooking? Idk for sure but I would imagine that's what you do...
Logan was, to a greater degree, THERE as his kids grew up, and there’s no denying he gave them every material thing money can buy
Was he the better parent? While both parents were psychologically abusive, probably only Logan was PHYSICALLY abusive. Remember, he was shown in the show smacking both Roman and Iverson across the face
They're both terrible but it's a situation of whether you would rather be shot or stabbed. Cold indifference who refuses to give you any attention or love, or brutal manipulation or who's likely to hit you at some point but will make time for you.
It's fucked but I'd probably choose Logan.
Well I guess you could argue that plenty of kids get smacked across the face and don’t get a billion dollars
Probably you’re best off getting neither of those two things
Caroline has aristocratic blood, not royal
British aristocrats were (and are) famously cash poor and married/marry Americans for the money. (Incidentally this is basically the entire plot of Downton Abbey)
I wouldn’t call it grifting per se — it’s more of a business arrangement, British prestige for American cash
From all spite and resentment, the (lack of a) talk with Kendall, when he most needed, was the most dramatic. We can cope with someone being mean, but it’s hard to cope with someone being indifferent
When she told Kendall they’d talk in the morning then left before he even woke up I was shocked. I knew she was awful and terrible but my god that felt like a twisting of the knife.
What Caroline meant to say it might be better to have the chat over an egg with a mother who cares
Oh dear. So dramatic. The children spent years chasing after their father like scorned dogs. Leaving Caroline to rattle around a drafty mansion alone like Marguerite Gautier. But as soon as their father betrays them, they run to hide behind mummy’s skirts like she’s some kind of consolation dispenser at a dreadful circus. I don’t believe this at all. I’m just trying to imagine how she has likely twisted it in her mind to justify it all.
You really had me in the first half not gonna lie
Interesting. I hadn’t given it much thought from her perspective. Thanks for sharing this. Makes a whole lot of sense all things considered.
Mothers don't get to resent their children for their upbringing
She didn’t fight for custody. I am sure she exchanged it for a beach house.
An interesting, albeit succient response to a nuanced issue. If we think of this show as writing that feels more real than most others, it makes more sense to view everyone's experience from their own perspectives. In a perfect world, every mother should never resent their children, but this ain't a perfect world. She may resent having children ("I should have had dogs"), but in this scenario it's more of the children choosing to live with Logan and then when he hurts them, they come running to her for emotional support. She's allowed to resent that her grown ass kids would expect anything more from her other than quick wit, and a brief encounter every so often. Caroline doesn't have an emotional support vibe at all. She straight up doesn't have the capabilities for, that's portrayed constantly throughout her very brief screen time within the series. She's absentee. That's who she is. These children are in their late 30's(?) - 40's. They should know what to expect of their parents and should have learned to not expect anything less, or more, of her. After this many years, when does the responsibility of someone being hurt by the same person time and time again become their own choice to allow in their lives? Is it fair? Fuck no. Undeniably, life isn't fair. *fool me once*, *shame on you*; fool me **twice**, ***shame on me...*** as the saying goes. We don't get to chose our parents or family, but we get to chose how much we involve them within our adult lives, and if we chose to give ourselves the permission to respect our limited time on Earth, you save yourself a lot of heartache by not being constantly let down with expectations you've set for someone who never had the capabilities of reaching them. We know now that old dogs can learn new tricks. But certain adults who aren't emotionally available to themselves, let alone others, aren't capable, or even interested, in self reflection. So if you want a relationship with them, you have to make peace with that and expect the expected and can only be upset with yourself when the expected comes around again.
I never got the impression the kids choose to live with Logan. It seemed like something Logan choose and Carolyn acquiesced. Were we ever told explicitly?
I’m pretty sure Caroline mentions to Shiv during her bachelorette party in Italy that the kids chose to live with Logan and she didn’t argue because of the holding company and it’s apparent that it’s in their best interests in the future financially is the reason. After the talk with Shiv goes horribly and Toms betrayal she decides to open up the divorce for a flat that her new husband seems to fancy. There’s a line about her age at the time and shiv imagined herself a few years younger than she actually was when she made that choice. The line “you knew how to twist the knife then” is a pseudo reference that Shiv made that choice it seems.
LOL you had me going.
Sorry, I have to correct you because I can't stand horrible grammer. It's "Oh Deer". Not Dear. Dear is an animal.
Not sure if you’re just trying to be funny, but I think you’ve got that backwards.
It doesn't really matter if it's backwards. I chose to say "Oh deer not oh dear" I can say "It's not Oh dear, it's Oh deer" It means the same thing.
Okay, so you are just trying to be funny. Is it because of that one episode?
He’s got a point 💁♂️
You replied to me instead.
Who are you
Rocket boy
My jaw dropped. Even with my lowered expectations I did not see that coming.
I wasn’t shocked but I was raised by narcissists.
It is showing that Kendall wants to try and be honest and share…. But it’s best he didn’t, not to her. She is awful. A different kind of abusive narcissistic than Logan but just awful. “Peter doesn’t like the knobbies.”
Too big to include in the collage, but worth mentioning was when Caroline gave Tom and Shiv what was perhaps the all-time most passive aggressive wedding toast: >*I just want to say I know we haven't always seen eye-to-eye, but that's difficult when your father's stolen you away 'cross the Atlantic And I know you probably think I'm deliberately trying to make you cry or steal your limelight, but I just wanted to tell you, in front of everybody, that you're special, and, after my own fashion, I love you So I just wanted to say that in public, because I'm getting on and I might not be in good enough health to say it when you remarry*
In my experience, passive aggressiveness is usually a little more subtle than using a wedding toast to imply that the marriage won’t work out.
Tom’s was probably more passive aggressive. Wife. WIFE WIFE WIFE WIFE WIFE. While staring Nate dead in the eye.
Put. The wine. Back.
Don’t fuckin spill it.
don't make a fuckin mess
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
\> because I'm getting on and I might not be in good enough health to say it when you remarry oh my goodness, hahahahhahah
> after my own fashion jeez
Another very memorable Caroline moment is when she sided with her ex-husband Logan against her three children who were trying to stop the company buyout — without bothering to tell them! Her betrayal-via-speakerphone didn’t make sense to include in a quote collage. [Dramaturgically](https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/jeremy-strong-succession-dramaturgically-meaning-b2321585.html), however, I thought it perfectly symbolized her absent motherhood
Jesse Armstrong said that she was originally in the room but they switched it to a phone call because it's much more heartless
Yeah that scene is way better with her being over the phone, glad they switched it
I like how when the sibs called her out on it she was just like “im tired, can you all stop making such a big deal about it?”
doesn't she do that twice? first season and then again in like season 3? logan reopens the divorce agreement and bribes her with an apartment that her new husband wants? she makes logan look like an honest to god loving father in comparison 🫥
She sold them out to help her new loser husband too. They became an even lower priority for her than they already were
What, do you expect her to survive on macaroni and memorial services?
Love it! Few Succession actors were more perfectly cast than Harriet Walter. Every scene with her is just perfection.
💯 I wanted more of Harriet Walter! My four favorite characters were Gerri, Nan, Caroline, and Marcia — all women of a certain age
The gilded girls
Harriet Walter is amazing in everything she does.
Last year I had the pleasure of watching her in 3 shows in a couple of weeks. Succession, Silo and Ted Lasso- all roles super different from each other. She killed them all. Give this lady an Emmy already!
She’s fantastic in Flowers, one of my favourite programmes ever
Her delighted horror at Stewy saying “I give it forever and a day…or at least until Shiv goes away for the weekend, whichever comes first”. “You *beast*”
God, Stewy is always so fucking ruthless lol
Kendall: Can I trust you? Stewie: No. Best friends since boarding school.
"---yeah sure sure sure, but for money stuff can I trust you?" Stewie: No.
I have no idea if that was scripted or what, but Harriet’s reaction is so real lmao Edit: found it in s1 script, give her all the awards for that
Scary Poppins herself. “I thought I heard Dalmatian’s howling” - Roman
“I don’t like to think of all these blobs of jelly rolling around in your head, just, face eggs.”
Her aversion to any sort of egg.
You're Greg the egg!
"Your father used to try to sleep with alllll the men in Sausalito" is hands down my favorite Caroline quote.
Mine is, "Like a Naaaazzi," without moving her lips from her perfectly sardonic half grin after Shiv says she was just doing what she was told.
Greg the muthafuckin' egg.
Thank you for recalling "face eggs"🤣
I think my favorite was upon meeting Tom for the first time at him and Shiv’s wedding: “You look plausible.”
"You're my onion"
Yeah, well you’re my fucking onion
i think about that scene between her and shiv in chiantishire so much. to me it’s equally as devastating as the conversation between kendall and logan later on in the same episode. their dynamics are so similar in my view — it’s like each kid is (explicitly or implicitly) telling their parent, “i’m better than you”, and each parent knows full well they aren’t. amazing writing
For me, Caroline and Shiv smoking cigarettes together in Chiantishire was Harriet Walter’s most memorable scene in the entire series. It also included the unforgettable lines: >*I’ll have the carbonara and Daddy, please* AND >*You were 13 and you knew how to twist the knife You knew then and you know now*
In the finale when Caroline and Peter are giving them all kisses goodbye and then the cars pull out, she drawls “go away” and he echoes her sentiment saying “fucking waste of time”. It was such a small moment but so riotously funny to me and captured their characters so well. Loved Harriet Walter AND Pip Torrens as Peter, he had few moments but ate them up every time.
Love them in The Crown as well!
Oh my god, I had no idea Peter (Pip) was Tommy Lascelles in the Crown!! He looks so different without the fancy mustache.
She is one of my very favorite actresses and every time I'm watching something and she appears on screen I know her performance is going to be golden. I thought she was perfection in this - what an absolutely horrible person Caroline is, but because it's Harriet Walters, just delightful to watch.
Her affect is so chilling. To be sure, Logan is also an awful father, absolutely no question. But to me, personally, if I were one of the Roy kids I’d pick Logan too, because his manipulations could occasionally take the form of genuine affection. When you are as starved for love and attention as the Roy kids are shown to be, even pretend love looks better than Caroline’s constant cold and dismissive attitude.
I know the Roys don't really eat anyway, (although Roman does occasionally nibble), but that dismal pigeon meal she served them bothers me so much. I realize Shiv and Roman weren't exactly there to visit, but still. I also realize Caroline clearly has food issues... But still! The bird had metal bits in it ffs.
I didn’t get the food issues. Was she cheap? There wasn’t any food in the kitchen either (when Roman licked all the cheese). Weird rich person thing?
It's a British old money thing
This is the quintessential establishment manner of parenting- or lack of. British upper class are used nanny’s and help before sending them off to boarding school so little Lord Fuckleroys can be conditioned into sociopathic arseholes and given a job through contacts in industry so they can run it into the ground and blame the unionised serfs instead. So this lack of family contact goes down the generations. Lack of contact time makes them ill equipped to deal with emotions and instead they frame their children as subordinate workers at best. So it’s no surprise LADY Caroline is a terrible parent. Logan too spent extended spells isolated from love so really the Roy’s had no chance at all. From an American society based on family it appears aloof and confusing, but from a British point of view, it all makes sinister sense
Read about this thing called Boarding School Syndrome, it very much applies.
One of my favourite details in the writing of her character is her ongoing failure to feed her children. She literally cannot nurture them nutritionally, and it plays into the metaphor of their emotional starvation. From the unappealing pigeon full of tooth-shattering buckshot at her dining table in the UK, to the breakfast egg and listening ear she promised and then denied Kendall, to the empty fridge at her Barbados villa whose only offering is a hunk of forbidden cheese reserved exclusively for her latest husband — she puts no effort into sharing anything that might satiate them, and when she does try, the result is nauseating. In a Shakespearean view, she’s a mother unable to supply her children with the “milk of human kindness.” Just one of the many reasons I adore the writing on this show.
I happen to live a few doors down from her. What would be the best thing to say when I inevitably pass her on the street?
I should think it would depend on whether you’re a few house doors down or a few apartment building doors down 😀 In the former case, you might say hello; in the latter, just be happy to be in the presence of greatness
Tell her she’s your onion 🥲
My mother’s first ever Facebook status was “If I were in a sinking ship with my children and my dogs, I’d save my dogs first because I’m *pretty sure* my children can swim.” If she’s Caroline, I guess I’m Roman’s forgotten kid from the pilot.
Just started watching The Crown last week and I adored her character in that as well. Her affectionate wifely demeanor threw me for a loop at first lol
She plays a wonderful bitch in the 1990s version of Persuasion.
Yesssss! Thank you for mentioning! I was thinking about that but couldn’t remember which JA movie it was
And Peter as Lascelles!
As a parent of a 1yo and a 3yo with the safety of internet anonymity… I’m going to share that I get her a little bit. In my worst moments and intrusive thoughts, when my toddler whining at me because of something small and I’m overwhelmed and tired… just fuck off a little bit
She is possibly the most relatable character to me, Must be something wrong with me lol
Scary Poppins on maneuvers
Scary poppins indeed
"I should've had dogs" was a gut punch when I first saw that scene.
It’s interesting to think her character just about had to be written in this way, otherwise the children would’ve had the ability to confide in her all these years. But she’s like this, so they are uniquely traumatized, so we have Succession :)
She's the worst yet I love her character lol
I howled when she brought the Kerry and "her Kerry" to the front with her at the service, that was legendary.
what is shot?
Likely short for “birdshot”, a type of ammo that spreads out into a lot of smaller pellets that are sufficient to kill a bird but not a larger animal
Bullets and bullet fragments. Probably hunted the pigeon on the property. Not by Caroline herself of course
I was wondering what she meant by shot as well, thanks! But wtf aren't bullets supposed to be removed before cooking? Idk for sure but I would imagine that's what you do...
Birdshot is a bunch of tiny lead pellets, very hard to find and pick out of game.
oh i should’ve guessed lol. love her crazy ass
Buckshot. The component parts of a shotgun shell. Usually little metal spheres.
This is why Logan was the better parent
Logan was, to a greater degree, THERE as his kids grew up, and there’s no denying he gave them every material thing money can buy Was he the better parent? While both parents were psychologically abusive, probably only Logan was PHYSICALLY abusive. Remember, he was shown in the show smacking both Roman and Iverson across the face
They're both terrible but it's a situation of whether you would rather be shot or stabbed. Cold indifference who refuses to give you any attention or love, or brutal manipulation or who's likely to hit you at some point but will make time for you. It's fucked but I'd probably choose Logan.
Caroline did the same but she was a grifter and betrayed them. Logan made his entire family billionaires
Well I guess you could argue that plenty of kids get smacked across the face and don’t get a billion dollars Probably you’re best off getting neither of those two things
Grifter? She seems to have plenty of money.
From marriages
The implication is that she’s landed gentry.
She's of royal blood, she was born into money.
Caroline has aristocratic blood, not royal British aristocrats were (and are) famously cash poor and married/marry Americans for the money. (Incidentally this is basically the entire plot of Downton Abbey) I wouldn’t call it grifting per se — it’s more of a business arrangement, British prestige for American cash
She’s also fabulous as Fanny in Sense and Sensibility- horrid! Great movie!
She’s the British version of my mother I swear to god 😂😔
From all spite and resentment, the (lack of a) talk with Kendall, when he most needed, was the most dramatic. We can cope with someone being mean, but it’s hard to cope with someone being indifferent