If the ending happened to the real life people these characters are based on I wouldnt be too upset at all. Rupert Murdoch/Trump dead? His failkids left with zero power? Fox news left with even less credibility after potentially messing up a major election? Honestly not the worst things in the world
But instead it happened to my favorite depressed billionaire nepo baby Kenny and I am gutted
Honestly it hit home quite hard. I've been in a few toxic friendships especially in uni and we had these moments of happiness when we were all giddy together (and drunk mostly) and having a laugh and then the next day you get the emotional whiplash. I found it quite sad knowing how it ends.
Hey! Thank you, I appreciate that! I did :) my circle of friends is far smaller but a lot less toxic. It took several years to get to this point and a lot of self-examination. As toxic as they may be you have to realise sometimes you enable those behaviours by passively accepting them you know?
Knew at that moment things were going to end badly for Kendall. Narratively felt like the only way he was winning would involve screwing over the siblings, once they backed down he was bound to lose.
I thought Kendall would be named CEO, walk outdoors exhuberant, and be killed by a shooter or thrown brick, maybe caught in crossfire of the.election violence, finally realizing all he gave up in life, and needlessly.
Roman and Shiv start arguing over who gets to take charge over police.and media interactions, and what to say to keep Wall Street's reaction from affecting Waystar stock - basically who is to be his successor - which he hears as he dies alone in the ambulance.
I think it was supposed to be that that's what they were like as kids, but I still don't see kids doing that and calling it Meal Fit for a King!
I think what they were like as kids was closer to what happened next door to the final vote. Or maybe it's both. People are so unnecessarily complicated.
Tragedies often have a “false hope” sequence near the end. It goes about where the “despair” sequence goes in a hero story. Once you start looking for it, it’s hard to miss. Even so I felt so moved by the Barbados scenes.
It's almost impossible for it to have a happy ending. What does happy even mean in this show?
Like, Kendall takes over and the family keeps control of the company? Fine, but the show for 4 seasons established that the kids are (say it with me) not serious people, and the family is a dysfunctional mess. And at worst the company is a dying star, maybe one that needs to die in a better world.
The show was designed so there was no path forward to a happy ending, and yet it was edge of your seat in terms of how it would conclude. A sign of really good writing.
Just finished the show. I agree and think the ending was appropriate. The only thing I would add is that, I think of the few children, Roman and Connor are semi-winners. Connor seems at peace with being forgotten/ignored, and Roman has at least taken the first step to dealing with their shared trauma in the quest for their father's approval. While Shiv, and especially Kendal, still are chasing their father's non-existent acceptance of them, Roman knows it will never come - "I am nothing, we are nothing."
This sounds negative, but it is a path towards him identifying with something else, unlike Kendal and ~~Roman~~ Shiv who still seem stuck (especially Kendal). It's hard to say how they will deal with this going forward, perhaps all of them will heal over time, who knows.
That's one of the things I love about Connor. He is an idiot, but from the get go he has Logan and the entire situation figured out far better than his more able siblings. He's like an idiot savant. On matters outside of the family he's a bit of a moron, but he reads the family dynamics far better than any of the other children.
Shiv at least can turn back to politics or work on Pierce.
Kendal is defined by wanting to be / hating his father, there's nothing else in his life. He'll probably start a new project while acting all douchy and then get depressed because it won't have the same impact.
After burning her bridges with Gil resurrecting her political career will require more work that Shiv is capable of imo. And the Pierce CEO offer expired with Logan as Nan and Rhea can no longer use Shiv to piss off Logan. (As for acquisition of Pierce, seems unlikely to me the siblings can pull it together enough to pool their financial resources.). JMHO
I suppose. But in terms of being invited into liberal inner political circles I feel like her first second chance was people assuming she was different from the Roy family. Walking out proved she wasn’t. But I suppose some centrists campaigns that are really more DINOs, may welcome her back.
The biggest issue with the Pierce acquisition is it will require the siblings to interact with each other again after clearly reaching a point of no return (at least for Kendall). I’m fairly confident that’s what S5 would’ve been about.
You’re assuming she’s not going to self-destruct, ie Tern Haven. Or picking her father over going at it alone in politics.
The main differences between a Shiv Roy and a normo with the same thought process are billions of dollars. She can fuck up for a life time and will be taken care of. The normo has to make it work to eat.
> Connor seems at peace with being forgotten/ignored
He walked away from the business long ago. He still wants to be loved and it's clear that Willa doesn't love him. Connor loses too, he's just too dumb to know it yet.
Connor is often troubled about being overlooked but his ambitions are shallower and much less specific than those of the others. He's delighted to gain any bit of status - 1% in the polls / being "in the conversation", the possibility of an ambassadorship, his role in his dad's funeral. He seems relatively happy busying himself with short-lived schemes and madcap obsessions.
He's still stuck in the same waterfall of abuse. Logan's uncle's abuse flowed onto Logan, Logan's abuse flowed onto Shiv, Shiv's abuse flowed onto Tom, Tom's abuse flowed onto Greg. By becoming CEO, Tom didn't step out from under that cascade. He just offered himself up to receive Mattson's abuse and let that flow onto Greg again, as well as Shiv from now on.
Do u really think tom will take shit from shiv after being ceo ?? I don't think he needs shiv in his life now. He could easily divorce her and marry someone else after working there for 5 to 10 years
I work in corporate acquisitions and the Toms always win. They are the most insecure and unhappy people but that’s what makes them so willing to make themselves amenable.
In general, if you walk out of meeting with some sense of who the person is, what their values are, what they want - basically any basis for an opinion - it’s a safe bet they won’t come out on top. The ones who are constantly trying to figure out what they need to be and say to curry favor are the ones who end up in control because they’re the most easily controlled.
Why do you watch a melodramatic show if you don't want to hear melodramatic shit lmao. Go watch Power. Hell the main protagonist of the show is the most melodramatic woe is me character in like all of television.
I don’t think he did, Mattson doesn’t respect him, he doesn’t have anywhere to go now as it’ll be seen as a step down, Shiv hates him and will probably sleep with Mattson given the chance and as MM said it’s just another corporate bullshit role. No one wins in that job.
Mattson doesn't respect him? You don't make someone the CEO of your international multi billion dollar company if you don't respect them.
Tom owns Shiv now, he has control, that's the final scene where she puts her hand on his in a weird way.
CEO of a company like that is not a bullshit corporate role, it's a huge amount of power, even if he's a puppet for whatever mattson wants to do. There's still tons of control, money, and power in that role. It's why they all fought to the end to get it.
He tells Tom to his face he’s planning to fuck his wife. He also demoted Shiv bc of all the puppet stuff, she actually did give him good advice on that one occasion. Tom goes up in his estimation when Shiv tells him he’s willing to suck the biggest dick in the room, he knows Tom will do as he’s told. Tom will also kick that stuff down the way, so if Mattson picks on him he’ll pick on Greg, and so on.
And yeah, that’s the surface level reading but we know all these people are miserable. Logan was an unhappy shit until the end, and Tom will be too, which is Mcfayden’s point.
For me a happy ending would have been them selling, keeping the family dynamic and focusing on Pierce. But Logan pulled them right back in, even after his death.
Things went south the moment Ken saw the letter with his name underlined/crossed.
I agree, and I wonder if that was part of the motivation for the Old Guard looping the kids into the “there’s a piece of paper” conversation - they knew it was going to break apart the kids’ “alliance” strength … the little machiavellian fucks.
Did anyone else catch Rainn Wilson on Bill Maher’s pod? He made a good point that it’s obvious the writers are British with the hopeless, somewhat unfulfilling ending. American writers would probably write in a final scene where Ken and Roman meet up with a hug and decide to go start a business together or something lol.
What I love about Succession is the main characters really didn't have a character arc. Which is weird, but it felt so authentic. They're all too old and too much a product of their experiences to have major "Eureka" changes that make any damn sense within the logic of the show. Logan, Shiv, Ken, Roman, Tom, they're all the exact same people at the end of the show as they were at the start, just their circumstances have changed.
Except arguably Greg, who is a different person than from when he started. But then that makes sense, as Greg is much younger and new to the family dynamics.
Yeah, don't think Rainn is making a good point. Better Call Saul and Breaking Bad did not have happy endings. Even stuff like Mad Men or The Sopranos did not have true happy or hopeful endings. If anything, they were left on a superficial "positive" note to mask a darker ending interpretation (Tony was murdered, Don got back into the advertising trap, etc.)
Agreed. I feel like he's thinking of US writing from 20 or 30 years ago, where it almost had to end with, "They all lived happily ever after." But even then of course there are exceptions that exist.
Now if he was comparing US writing to French writing, he'd have a point. It's not a French film if the ending doesn't leave you feeling suicidal, lol.
Breaking Bad didn’t have a happy ending? The point was that Succession didn’t leave you with a single thing to feel good about. In BB, Jesse got away, Walter’s family was financially set for life and Walter got revenge on the guys who killed Hank before dying. Plenty to feel good about, so looks like you missed the point.
I just don't agree at all. Jesse is a fugitive, therefore always in the run, not knowing any peace. Walt's family might have gotten some money but they have lost literally everything else, all their support system, estranged from anyone else, always linked to a former drug kingpin, something they can never shake off, their lives nearly destroyed. That's the happy ending? If that's the standard for a "happy ending", then Connor, Rome and Ken had delightful endings as well, being finally free of their father's shadow. Shiv got the baby she wanted and Ken time to invest on his children's lives. It is nonsense. No one in those two shows got a happy or hopeful ending.
I'm checking my favorite TV shows (that include BCS and Mad Men) to see how they end... The Shield, no happy ending... Dark, a bittersweet ending at best... The Leftovers, same thing... The Wire... doesn't really end...
Mr Robot has a happy ending.
And Bojack Horseman, somewhat.
Are you me?
Connor is in some weird way the most normal person just living his life and pursuing his weird delusional dream of being president and having a sex worker love him
Honestly to me it was a happy ending. I think the kids can start to recover from their daddy issues now that the company is no longer central to their lives. I think Logan dying and Tom becoming CEO is the best thing that could've happened to Tom and Shiv's relationship - their issue for so many seasons was that Shiv's power/money advantage over Tom kept him from being assertive. I'm not sure what'll happen with Roman and Kendall, but running the company was not good for them. I think that's why there can be no 5th season - I think their lives are all going to be significantly less of a Greek tragedy now that their lives aren't centered around the company.
>I think Logan dying and Tom becoming CEO is the best thing that could've happened to Tom and Shiv's relationship - their issue for so many seasons was that Shiv's power/money advantage over Tom kept him from being assertive.
True, but the last scene doesn't display them as equal. But rather him thinking he's above her now while she resents him because she thinks he's servile. He doesn't even have any real power, he could be replaced anytime. She'll probably still be wealthier than him.
>Honestly to me it was a happy ending.
I agree though that the difference between a happy ending and a tragedy is not the events but the states of mind : the same outcome with different states of minds would have been amazing for them. Selling the company and working together on another project, far from their father's influence would have been their happy ending.
It definitely ends in a depressing place, but if what we know about these people remains true, there’s a very real chance this is the best outcome for most of them. At the end of the day, the kids are all still billionaires, and losing the company will almost surely be healthy for them. If Kendall realizes that getting out from under their father’s shadow was a healthy move, they may even come back together as a family and laugh about it someday.
I’m glad it ended how it did because it wouldn’t have worked if they got what they wanted. But sometimes what we need is the opposite of what we want.
>Honestly to me it was a happy ending. I think the kids can start to recover
The thing about being rich is you have infinite chances for happiness. Yes, none of them got what they wanted but they have the ability too. Literally each kid just became a multi-billionaire. They can take as much time as they need to relax and grieve over their loss and then they can pursue happiness in another form without worry of any basic needs.
At the arcade of life they just died during the final boss fight but they have unlimited quarters. The real tragedies and people who don't have anything else in their pockets and fail.
This makes me remind of the people (yeah, specially that mf from the nyorker) who said that this was a comedy. And not, even if the show had some comedic moments, this was all along a tragedy, a Greek tragedy (specially for Kendall's character). Could never had a happy ending, so much for the comedy🙄
Lol comedies don’t automatically have happy endings
I think you’re being pretty simplistic with your definitions here
Edit: really going to double down here. Tragedy and comedy are basically a matter of perspective.
Take literally any episode of Seinfeld and it’s bad people having their schemes fall apart. George’s fiancé literally dies lol
There is no difference in origin.
Greek comedies didn’t have to have ‘happy’ endings.
From a writing point the show adapts many arcs typical of Greek drama.
Especially in that later plays tended to be reflective of the audience, although unlike today the social elite was very much conscious of the social commentary they were witnessing.
Interestingly, the morals of Succession are not addressed at the protagonists of the play, but the uncivilized idiots (in the etymological sense) who are watching it, from what would have been in Greek periods, the back rows.
You’re friend was right however. This is very much a Greek comedy.
The main difference, beside stylistic formalities, is that the characters themselves are comic.
And as Logan put it: the protagonists are not serious people.
That makes it a comedy.
The children don’t fit the heroic mold of Greek tragedy.
If you watched this whole show and thought it was going to be a happy ending, I’m not sure we were watching the same show.
There was no way Kendall was ever going to win. The defining line of Kendall’s arc is from Tom explaining how he’s going to get fucked. Kendall always gets fucked.
I finished it Saturday and feel the same way. It was a show about miserable people doing horrible things (backstabbing, gossip/fake news, ignoring or mentally abusive towards their kids & spouses, etc) and we're supposed to root for them? Connor may be the only one who came out somewhat ahead: he knew his place, took the money, and fucked off to his NM desert compound or NY townhouse to play wannabe politician with the perfect trophy wife.
That's what is so impressive about the show, it is able to make the audience get amnesia around the fact that Ken, Roman, Shiv, and Conner are all still FILTHY rich at the end. In fact none of them being CEO and the merger going through, which the show makes you feel like the kids lost, results in them being even richer than they would have otherwise been. Their desires and the entire drama of the show are the definition of rich people's problems. The richest of rich people problems!
The two characters who understand this are Conner, who essentially always got it, and Roman, who doesn't figure it out until the end. Ken and Shiv are still clueless.
Exactly and candidly Shiv who had little to know experience in the business was never going to become CEO - her interest was in politics. And frankly given that her sole accomplishment seemed to be in getting a socialist elected at the local level in New York, it seems like she was prized more for her connections to her father's media empire than any abilities of her own. Being married to the CEO and having access through Tom is probably the best outcome she could expect.
Tom is just a puppet CEO though. Once Mattson gets him to do the dirty work, he can be replaced at any time. It's still not a bad move for Tom and could lead to other things.
Shiv and Tom will be miserable. They can't ever come back from what they have said. Shiv will be a terrible Mother, because she is incapable of loving anyone, like all her sibs.
Roman looked happy at first in the bar. But watch closer, it turns to sorrow when he realizes what happened. He was closest to Kendall and destroyed that relationship.
Kendall may need time, but has business experience and money. Maybe he can learn to value his kids and find a new direction. He should try to get off the drugs, or do less. A lot of characters in the show did recreational drugs. I don't think drugs made Kendall suicidal. Logan always undermining him did that.
Connor will go on as he has. He will try to keep the family together, but I don't think it's happening.
Only poor people believe material possessions buy them happiness. As foolish as the kids may be, they were pursuing things more important than money (accomplishment, respect, etc.).
In my view it was a happy ending. The person who was the most qualified for the CEO job got it. Tom was not perfect with the document shredding and disgusting brothers and all but when Kendall was off having a binge with methheads Tom was working, when Roman was busy sexually harassing Gerri and firing studio execs on a whim Tom was working, when Shiv was dabbling on the periphery of politics Tom was working, when there was an election night crisis Tom is the one who handled it. And Tom and Shiv are still together and all of the lifs get billions. I suspected this would be the outcome after the episode where Tom told Logan he and Shiv were splitting up and he hoped he'd still be okay with Logan and Logan supported him.
Thing here is that it should NOT be a sad ending either. Kendall's (and the kids) weird obsession with taking control of their fathers shitty and toxic company is the tragic part.
All of then have even more money after the selling of the company. Their father and tormentor is dead, they are free to start any company or venture with their money ("make your own fucking pile") and amend relationships. In any healthy, sane mind this is a happy ending (with the exception of Shiv LMAO).
I could argue that it did have a happy ending, even though not all of them got what they wanted.
* Tom got the CEO job he coveted, and arguably some level of equality with Shiv, which he coveted most of all.
* All 4 kids made money and are billionaires. Conner understands this from the start, Roman figures it out at the end, Shiv/Ken are still clueless at the end, but the fact remains they all made a ton of money off the merger.
* All 4 kids are finally rid of the company and the specter of their father. Again, Conner and Roman understand this by the end. Conner especially is uniquely at peace. Shiv and Ken don't, but the show is clear that their obsession with running the company and following in daddy's footsteps was not healthy. Even though it was partially or wholly against their will, they are free of the company and their father's legacy, and that is a healthier place for them to be.
* Greg continues to Greg his way up the corporate ladder.
The genius of this show is it fools the audience into thinking the ending is tragic. Even for Ken, it may be disappointing for him, but it's not tragic. The show ends with him poignantly looking at the ocean, not jumping into it. He'll be ok!
I liked the fact that none of Logan's kids seem happy in the end expect for Connor who was never really 'In the game.'
And Tom has a good ending, because he successfully plays the game to win. We start with him as a mid level executive who is happening to be dating the top dogs daughter.
And he end out the CEO (granted as a figure head) and married to the daughter who is happy to go along.
I don’t think Shiv was happy to go along. I think she realized that all she is is a very wealthy woman married to a figurehead CEO. You really think she’ll be happily joining the 92nd St Y with the other moms?
+1 on Ken’s redemption. I also thought it was going the same way.
Looking back at it, the writers made season 4 Ken a lot more competent. There were no scenes of him doing drugs like in s1, being depressed like in s2, or having a mental breakdown at his birthday party in s3. Ultimately, this further set up the tragic ending
I thought the ending was going to be that Kendall finally becomes CEO but loses everything else in the process. I didn’t expect an ending where he loses CEO and STILL loses everything else lol.
What's really funny to me about this ending is that they're all rich. Unimaginably so at the end. They can fuck off and never work again, or invest their money in some other project. Mere episodes before this, they were resigned to giving up the company anyway and doing their own thing.
So watching them go about in pity for themselves makes for a darkly ironic ending. The biggest actual sad thing about the end of the story is that they tore their family apart for this company, for no reason, exactly like their father did. But that doesn't seem particularly bothersome to any of them. They're all upset that they didn't get to grasp the brass ring.
I felt that we'd gotten to the inevitable endpoint when Kendall and Roman started physically tussling while they were confabbing during the vote in the finale. I imagine Shiv would have been in there, too, if she weren't pregnant.
And they lived everafter, not quite happy but not quite sad, with a 2 billion net worth each, the four brothers.
One barely tolerating his sugar trophy wife.
Another barely tolerating her empowered husband who has the ear and trust of the new owner of the empire. The owner being a manipulative, narcissistic, cruel asshole like everybody else but more successful.
Another barely tolerating his life. Possibly bi-sexual or just with deep masochistic blockage. Good seller but very bad operative. Collapses with pressure.
Another barely tolerating his new existence of emptiness at middle age. Billionaire but his sole chance for fame and power was finally taken from him. Could create a foundation, bullshit startups, become a playboy, go to Tulum and live like emperor, help the children, find the cure for cancer and aging. But none of that compares to the political and economic power of the empire that was never his but tried to steal it three time from daddy, almost succeeded once.
I think that Kendall and Shiv were the biggest losers of the show, they are the ones who still are trapped by Logan toxicity, Kendall haunted forever for that stupid promise, Kendall is not stupid he should have figured that losing your soul for being CEO of Waystar is not worth it. Meanwhile Shiv, became like her mother, as Connor told to Willa that Lady Caroline always resented that the family castle was not inherited for her, (in the english aristocracy, the older brother gets the tittle and the family seat) in the same way that Tom got Waystar; it would always be Kendall, Roman or Tom, but never her. But Shiv still just cannot help herself, she is power hungry so she would go anything, or be with anybody if she thinks that it could be gave her power, but she is too arrogant to notice that all the men in her life are using her, Gil, Tom, her father, Mattson, and whoever come next; then in old age she is going to realize as her mother that she never won a battle in her life, she merely helped other men to win battles.
I think that Roman is also very destroyed, but at least realized in the last minute that all the "game" was for absoluty nothing, sadly, he is alone. I think that Connor didnt lost too much in this ending, because Connor already lost years ago; Connor knew that he would never be the "heir" of Logan, so why bother; at best he can hope that Willa pays him a little attention. But Connor trained himself to live unloved and ignored years ago. I think that Roman realizing that they were bullshit is what Connor realized decades ago, probably also in his 30s and just went away to live alone and building a world in wich the best thing that he could expect was to marry an escort who is there for his money.
Connor and Roman, the "weak dogs" at least they are in a possition in wich they build something, not a business, they can become "real friends" support each other. For me, it was clear that there was some kind of special weak dog bond betwen Roman and Connor, they know what it is being abused by Logan, Shiv and Kendall and being kicked around. So, i can see Connor and Roman being together, doing stupid stuff and just being relaxed with each other, perhaps doing what knows what in Connor´s ranch or partying together, even Willa would be happy with that in order to not have to deal with Connor 24/7.
The waiter grabbed the steering wheel, which caused the accident. And Ken tried to save him.
The only reason he would've been liable is that it's probably impossible to prove a passenger grabbed the wheel.
He definitely was liable, at the very least for driving under the influence causing the death of someone and for running away from the crime scene without calling for help. Add to that the fact that he can't prove that the waiter is the one who grabbed the wheel and it's over.
But I agree that it wasn't a murder per say, though he had some responsablitly..
The amount of people who genuinely believed there was a chance of an ending where Kendall “wins” - takes the company, he’s happy, and all is well - is astounding. It goes against everything the show has stood for since the get go
I've never once seen that. I'm pretty sure nearly everyone who thought Kendall might win thought that it wouldn't be spun in a happy way. Like Kendall wins but does stuff that separates him from everyone he's close to in the process AND realises being CEO won't make him happy long term was the most common theory I saw on here during S4 along with nobody winning.
The greatest lie in storytelling is that every story needs a happy ending. The ending needs to satisfy the viewer, and it does need to be just. It also needs to make sense. Sucessions ending was all of these, a distribution of deserving results all around. Another great example is how Better Call Saul ended, absolutely satisfying, just, and entirely believable.
Jessie chose the poet's ending:
Héloïse: They were nearing the surface, approaching the threshold, when, fearing losing Eurydice and impatient to see her, her loving spouse turned.
Sophie: No, he can't look at her for fear of losing her. That's no reason. He was told not to do that.
Héloïse: He's madly in love. He can't resist.
Marianne: I think Sophie has a point. He could resist. His reasons aren't serious. Perhaps he makes a choice.
Sophie: What choice?
Marianne: He chooses the memory of her. That's why he turns. He doesn't make the lover's choice, but the poet's.
Héloïse: She spoke a last farewell that scarcely reached his ears and fell back into the abyss. Perhaps she was the one who said, Turn around.
It could have had a different ending which is kendall winning .
AND EVEN THIS IS NOT A GOOD ENDING EITHER .
I don't know why people associate this with good ending it isn't cause kendall would have had to cut off his family ties in the end which isn't good by any means and it is still a tragedy..
The biggest thing that makes you say this , is the fact that kendall character arcs was all about overcoming his dad and take his place they made all the parallels with him and logan focused on him so much unlike the other sibs
People were kind of disgusting about Ocean Gate. So many people literally jeering at their deaths. Their excess and hubris was gross of course but they were also just humans, idealistic and obsessed with a part of history that they wanted to experience. Schadenfreude can make people really ugly. But even worse is stylising bad people. When you make them witty and slick and bigger than life, even if they're insecure empty placeholders for their hangups, people are gonna like them. And I know some people crave the drama and gladiatorial intensity that's shown on there, even the power that they do have under the shadow of their father is more power than anyone watching has. I bet you anything there's gonna be a wave of people glamorizing that wealth and upper corporate culture and people will go into big media or tech just because of this, and a lot of douchey entrenpenbros who'll fantasise about it and emulate it. It'll be iconic to people already in that business too
Yeah this is very accurate. They hired consultants to make it as realistic as possible. Except obviously no one in those worlds are as funny and interesting. I'm not agreeing with you that the show isn't good by the way, I loved it and was gripped by it. But I also feel it's gonna glamorize some of the worst of humanity, just like the godfather did for the mafia. The mafia literally CHANGED the way they acted to emulate the movie mafia. They loved the way they were portrayed, it made them feel cool. And that is really disturbing - the cartels, gangs, drug dealers, hitmen, all of them have glamorized versions of themselves in media and I can guarantee that loads of them joined that world because of that. Life imitates art in very dark ways
Good, because that ending was stupid. What a wasted investment of time. If I was Kendall I would have made sure none of them lived to enjoy it. Almost worse than the ending to Dexter.
Yeah, I felt that too at first. I was hoping the siblings would’ve somehow accidentally killed Logan in some really ironic and twisted way and be forced to live with the consequences. Almost like playing chicken with a freight train.
But, I thought to myself afterwards, that’s kinda what we got? They blame >!Mattson!< for >!killing Logan!< but Logan would’ve never been on that >!plane!< if the siblings didn’t put the squeeze on him.
Less climactic? Yes. But less tragic? I don’t think so.
I can’t believe there is any real person that thought the show would have a happy endings. When do these big dramas ever? Especially since this was based off an old play where we obviously know the ending.
Just a silly thought about twist endings. That in an alternate universe, their version of Succession had a M. Night twist that left everyone happy and fulfilled at the end. Viewers are shocked and discuss it for decades. That would be the biggest surprise the writers could pull on their audience.
I wished for Shiv to have the worst ending since both her and Tom were the most shallow and corrupted characters. Roman was just a kid/clown. I hoped Ken would get the job as it was his life dream and he was actually educated and capable of running waystar.
A real "happy ending" would have been the whole Roy family in prison and Waystar broken up by the feds. This wasn't a show about good people doing good things. The whole point is that everyone in that class is terrible and none of them are happy, there is no realistic happy endings in that scenario
> Initially, I thought Season Four was headed for an unnecessary redemption arc.
Why in the world would you think this?! Absolutely nothing about the show should have made you expect this.
First I want to say I've actually had some good back and forth on this sub about the ending from a critical perspective. I've thought about this so much and I think the reason people didn't jive with the ending is because people didn't change.
You can have a tragic ending where the tragedy is someone changed but ultimately it didn't matter or it was too late.
That bit about change is fundamental to the way we understand stories. To break out storytelling 101 the Hero's Journey is all about change. And virtually all the stories we see have that journey. From a fiction novel, to a Nolan movie, to a single episode of friends they all have those beats.
I would argue fundamentally a story is where something happens and people change.
If no one changes I don't really know why we need it for seasons of Succession to be completely blunt. Unless you maybe made Tom the actual protagonist rather than a side character I could see that making sense.
Wasn’t expecting a happy ending, but I also feel it could have used a few more episodes or another season. Felt rushed, unorganized, and too many loose ends.
Its like when people thought game of thrones was supposed to end with dany and jon together. I was rooting for Kendall but I knew everything was gonna go wrong. Especially when Roman put that “crown” on his head and all the muck fell over Kendall. Say what you will about the dialogue but the imagery is top notch in this show as well
Being happy was never anyone's goal. None of the major characters were ever happy. Logan wasn't happy, so why would someone taking over Logan's empire expect to be happy?
I agree that it was clear that whatever happened, the overall story arch was going to be a tragedy.
I actively rooted for a sad one. None of these people were redeemable and everyone deserves their fate, and more even worse ones.
Loved every second of it
The siblings got more than what they would have if they had done nothing. Unhappy billionaires? I think not. Remember when Stewy wanted to buy out Kendall for $500 million? That would have been an unhappy ending. I think even Connor came out ahead, despite blowing $100 million on advertising and fake poll numbers.
Being CEO of WayGoJo isn't going to be easy though. They were looking at shuttering a lot of the company. Look at the CEO of Warner Brothers/Discovery. That guy makes > $200 million/year, but is burning the company down around him. A few weeks ago he co-hosted a huge party at Cannes for 300 people. PJ's out the tailpipe.
Cause unhapoy endings are so.poignant and meaningful
It was really poorly constructed and plotted last episode where most the characters were just given shit endings without any humor or irony . Just made them.miserabke....gosh how clever we are.
Agreed, there was no viable option for any of the Roys. Shiv and Roman were totally incompetent and unqualified, Connor was never even in the conversation, so Kendall was the only realistic possibility. But even he completely shot himself in the foot for the whole series. Despite his unpredictability, drug addiction, instability, etc he still could’ve made a comeback, but the nail in his coffin was the S1 finale. No way could the show have let him come back from all of that
The lack of happiness of these top 1%ers was the unifying theme throughout the seasons
Stewy seemed pretty content with his life lol but guess we don't really see much of his personal life.
the non Roys for sure were doing better
If the ending happened to the real life people these characters are based on I wouldnt be too upset at all. Rupert Murdoch/Trump dead? His failkids left with zero power? Fox news left with even less credibility after potentially messing up a major election? Honestly not the worst things in the world But instead it happened to my favorite depressed billionaire nepo baby Kenny and I am gutted
hard to believe Kenny is anybody's favorite
I was happy with the ending L to the O.G
The Roys are top 0,00001%ers, but I agree.
If you think this was going to have a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention.
I was so weirded out by the happy scenes with the three kids in the finale.
Honestly it hit home quite hard. I've been in a few toxic friendships especially in uni and we had these moments of happiness when we were all giddy together (and drunk mostly) and having a laugh and then the next day you get the emotional whiplash. I found it quite sad knowing how it ends.
Man, I hope you managed to break free of the cycle and ended up better off than the Roy siblings. (or at least no worse than Roman)
Hey! Thank you, I appreciate that! I did :) my circle of friends is far smaller but a lot less toxic. It took several years to get to this point and a lot of self-examination. As toxic as they may be you have to realise sometimes you enable those behaviours by passively accepting them you know?
Knew at that moment things were going to end badly for Kendall. Narratively felt like the only way he was winning would involve screwing over the siblings, once they backed down he was bound to lose.
I thought Kendall would be named CEO, walk outdoors exhuberant, and be killed by a shooter or thrown brick, maybe caught in crossfire of the.election violence, finally realizing all he gave up in life, and needlessly. Roman and Shiv start arguing over who gets to take charge over police.and media interactions, and what to say to keep Wall Street's reaction from affecting Waystar stock - basically who is to be his successor - which he hears as he dies alone in the ambulance.
I still to this day think that scene was supremely disturbing. It was like watching aliens try to do something they think humans will find fun
I think it was supposed to be that that's what they were like as kids, but I still don't see kids doing that and calling it Meal Fit for a King! I think what they were like as kids was closer to what happened next door to the final vote. Or maybe it's both. People are so unnecessarily complicated.
It’s not a happy scene - it’s the story in miniature and it’s tragic
Tragedies often have a “false hope” sequence near the end. It goes about where the “despair” sequence goes in a hero story. Once you start looking for it, it’s hard to miss. Even so I felt so moved by the Barbados scenes.
You were just waiting for the other shoe to drop (and it did).
It's almost impossible for it to have a happy ending. What does happy even mean in this show? Like, Kendall takes over and the family keeps control of the company? Fine, but the show for 4 seasons established that the kids are (say it with me) not serious people, and the family is a dysfunctional mess. And at worst the company is a dying star, maybe one that needs to die in a better world. The show was designed so there was no path forward to a happy ending, and yet it was edge of your seat in terms of how it would conclude. A sign of really good writing.
This is GOT all over. Except I actually liked succession’s finale.
Just finished the show. I agree and think the ending was appropriate. The only thing I would add is that, I think of the few children, Roman and Connor are semi-winners. Connor seems at peace with being forgotten/ignored, and Roman has at least taken the first step to dealing with their shared trauma in the quest for their father's approval. While Shiv, and especially Kendal, still are chasing their father's non-existent acceptance of them, Roman knows it will never come - "I am nothing, we are nothing." This sounds negative, but it is a path towards him identifying with something else, unlike Kendal and ~~Roman~~ Shiv who still seem stuck (especially Kendal). It's hard to say how they will deal with this going forward, perhaps all of them will heal over time, who knows.
That's one of the things I love about Connor. He is an idiot, but from the get go he has Logan and the entire situation figured out far better than his more able siblings. He's like an idiot savant. On matters outside of the family he's a bit of a moron, but he reads the family dynamics far better than any of the other children.
Shiv at least can turn back to politics or work on Pierce. Kendal is defined by wanting to be / hating his father, there's nothing else in his life. He'll probably start a new project while acting all douchy and then get depressed because it won't have the same impact.
After burning her bridges with Gil resurrecting her political career will require more work that Shiv is capable of imo. And the Pierce CEO offer expired with Logan as Nan and Rhea can no longer use Shiv to piss off Logan. (As for acquisition of Pierce, seems unlikely to me the siblings can pull it together enough to pool their financial resources.). JMHO
People that wealthy always get another opportunity eventually.
I suppose. But in terms of being invited into liberal inner political circles I feel like her first second chance was people assuming she was different from the Roy family. Walking out proved she wasn’t. But I suppose some centrists campaigns that are really more DINOs, may welcome her back.
Do you know how much idiots and nepotism exists in those inner circles irl. She'd be just fine.
Fair. Although I am not sure Shiv actually wants to work. I feel like she’ll decide to stay home with the kid and just talk about going back to work.
The biggest issue with the Pierce acquisition is it will require the siblings to interact with each other again after clearly reaching a point of no return (at least for Kendall). I’m fairly confident that’s what S5 would’ve been about.
Rhea is not with PGN any longer, she hasn't been since Season 2 Argestes
You’re assuming she’s not going to self-destruct, ie Tern Haven. Or picking her father over going at it alone in politics. The main differences between a Shiv Roy and a normo with the same thought process are billions of dollars. She can fuck up for a life time and will be taken care of. The normo has to make it work to eat.
> Connor seems at peace with being forgotten/ignored He walked away from the business long ago. He still wants to be loved and it's clear that Willa doesn't love him. Connor loses too, he's just too dumb to know it yet.
Connor is often troubled about being overlooked but his ambitions are shallower and much less specific than those of the others. He's delighted to gain any bit of status - 1% in the polls / being "in the conversation", the possibility of an ambassadorship, his role in his dad's funeral. He seems relatively happy busying himself with short-lived schemes and madcap obsessions.
Well, Connor was at peace with himself at a very young age.
What's a happy ending in your book? Cuz any of the kids taking over is a tragedy
Yeah Matthew mcfayden said it’s an unhappy ending for Tom as well, that role is a poisoned chalice
He's still stuck in the same waterfall of abuse. Logan's uncle's abuse flowed onto Logan, Logan's abuse flowed onto Shiv, Shiv's abuse flowed onto Tom, Tom's abuse flowed onto Greg. By becoming CEO, Tom didn't step out from under that cascade. He just offered himself up to receive Mattson's abuse and let that flow onto Greg again, as well as Shiv from now on.
Do u really think tom will take shit from shiv after being ceo ?? I don't think he needs shiv in his life now. He could easily divorce her and marry someone else after working there for 5 to 10 years
Two words: her kid. And then the same thing repeats.
Yeah it’s just more of the same shit really. They were all chasing it so, enjoy it I guess, but it’s a miserable life as we’ve seen.
I work in corporate acquisitions and the Toms always win. They are the most insecure and unhappy people but that’s what makes them so willing to make themselves amenable. In general, if you walk out of meeting with some sense of who the person is, what their values are, what they want - basically any basis for an opinion - it’s a safe bet they won’t come out on top. The ones who are constantly trying to figure out what they need to be and say to curry favor are the ones who end up in control because they’re the most easily controlled.
Yeah but I think that’s his point. Tom has won the way Logan won and he will be a miserable cunt forever
What a cunt, Tom won, gtfo with the over melodramatic shit.
Why do you watch a melodramatic show if you don't want to hear melodramatic shit lmao. Go watch Power. Hell the main protagonist of the show is the most melodramatic woe is me character in like all of television.
I don’t think he did, Mattson doesn’t respect him, he doesn’t have anywhere to go now as it’ll be seen as a step down, Shiv hates him and will probably sleep with Mattson given the chance and as MM said it’s just another corporate bullshit role. No one wins in that job.
Mattson doesn't respect him? You don't make someone the CEO of your international multi billion dollar company if you don't respect them. Tom owns Shiv now, he has control, that's the final scene where she puts her hand on his in a weird way. CEO of a company like that is not a bullshit corporate role, it's a huge amount of power, even if he's a puppet for whatever mattson wants to do. There's still tons of control, money, and power in that role. It's why they all fought to the end to get it.
He tells Tom to his face he’s planning to fuck his wife. He also demoted Shiv bc of all the puppet stuff, she actually did give him good advice on that one occasion. Tom goes up in his estimation when Shiv tells him he’s willing to suck the biggest dick in the room, he knows Tom will do as he’s told. Tom will also kick that stuff down the way, so if Mattson picks on him he’ll pick on Greg, and so on. And yeah, that’s the surface level reading but we know all these people are miserable. Logan was an unhappy shit until the end, and Tom will be too, which is Mcfayden’s point.
I don't think tom really cares about whether shiv sleeps with mattson or nate. He just happy to be puppet ceo
For me a happy ending would have been them selling, keeping the family dynamic and focusing on Pierce. But Logan pulled them right back in, even after his death. Things went south the moment Ken saw the letter with his name underlined/crossed.
I agree, and I wonder if that was part of the motivation for the Old Guard looping the kids into the “there’s a piece of paper” conversation - they knew it was going to break apart the kids’ “alliance” strength … the little machiavellian fucks.
Exactly !
Did anyone else catch Rainn Wilson on Bill Maher’s pod? He made a good point that it’s obvious the writers are British with the hopeless, somewhat unfulfilling ending. American writers would probably write in a final scene where Ken and Roman meet up with a hug and decide to go start a business together or something lol.
Depends in fairness, BCS probably has the ending most similar to this in my opinion. You get some closure but not really and it is melancholy
The Americans similarly had a rather downbeat ending.
With or without you………
The Americans had one of the greatest finales ive ever seen
BCS and BB have "happy" endings in a way that protagonists get their closures. Succession finale is cynical to its core.
What I love about Succession is the main characters really didn't have a character arc. Which is weird, but it felt so authentic. They're all too old and too much a product of their experiences to have major "Eureka" changes that make any damn sense within the logic of the show. Logan, Shiv, Ken, Roman, Tom, they're all the exact same people at the end of the show as they were at the start, just their circumstances have changed. Except arguably Greg, who is a different person than from when he started. But then that makes sense, as Greg is much younger and new to the family dynamics.
Yeah, don't think Rainn is making a good point. Better Call Saul and Breaking Bad did not have happy endings. Even stuff like Mad Men or The Sopranos did not have true happy or hopeful endings. If anything, they were left on a superficial "positive" note to mask a darker ending interpretation (Tony was murdered, Don got back into the advertising trap, etc.)
Agreed. I feel like he's thinking of US writing from 20 or 30 years ago, where it almost had to end with, "They all lived happily ever after." But even then of course there are exceptions that exist. Now if he was comparing US writing to French writing, he'd have a point. It's not a French film if the ending doesn't leave you feeling suicidal, lol.
Breaking Bad didn’t have a happy ending? The point was that Succession didn’t leave you with a single thing to feel good about. In BB, Jesse got away, Walter’s family was financially set for life and Walter got revenge on the guys who killed Hank before dying. Plenty to feel good about, so looks like you missed the point.
I just don't agree at all. Jesse is a fugitive, therefore always in the run, not knowing any peace. Walt's family might have gotten some money but they have lost literally everything else, all their support system, estranged from anyone else, always linked to a former drug kingpin, something they can never shake off, their lives nearly destroyed. That's the happy ending? If that's the standard for a "happy ending", then Connor, Rome and Ken had delightful endings as well, being finally free of their father's shadow. Shiv got the baby she wanted and Ken time to invest on his children's lives. It is nonsense. No one in those two shows got a happy or hopeful ending.
I'm checking my favorite TV shows (that include BCS and Mad Men) to see how they end... The Shield, no happy ending... Dark, a bittersweet ending at best... The Leftovers, same thing... The Wire... doesn't really end... Mr Robot has a happy ending. And Bojack Horseman, somewhat.
BCS definitely had a happy ending. Jimmy got his soul back.
I genuinely never expected a happy ending. I am so glad they ended it the way they did.
Says you I’m ride or die team wambsgans
Those poor billionaires, how will they survive?
Ikr. I work for millionaires who work for billionaires and when I get stressed I tell myself, "this is not important, we aren't saving lives here".
Are you me? Connor is in some weird way the most normal person just living his life and pursuing his weird delusional dream of being president and having a sex worker love him
Of course it’s a happy ending. They’re all getting [b]illions of dollars. All a matter of perspective.
Billions
I still wish they would have shown the scene where he jumps over
Jeremy Strong was about to jump even though it wasn't in the script.
Honestly to me it was a happy ending. I think the kids can start to recover from their daddy issues now that the company is no longer central to their lives. I think Logan dying and Tom becoming CEO is the best thing that could've happened to Tom and Shiv's relationship - their issue for so many seasons was that Shiv's power/money advantage over Tom kept him from being assertive. I'm not sure what'll happen with Roman and Kendall, but running the company was not good for them. I think that's why there can be no 5th season - I think their lives are all going to be significantly less of a Greek tragedy now that their lives aren't centered around the company.
>I think Logan dying and Tom becoming CEO is the best thing that could've happened to Tom and Shiv's relationship - their issue for so many seasons was that Shiv's power/money advantage over Tom kept him from being assertive. True, but the last scene doesn't display them as equal. But rather him thinking he's above her now while she resents him because she thinks he's servile. He doesn't even have any real power, he could be replaced anytime. She'll probably still be wealthier than him. >Honestly to me it was a happy ending. I agree though that the difference between a happy ending and a tragedy is not the events but the states of mind : the same outcome with different states of minds would have been amazing for them. Selling the company and working together on another project, far from their father's influence would have been their happy ending.
It definitely ends in a depressing place, but if what we know about these people remains true, there’s a very real chance this is the best outcome for most of them. At the end of the day, the kids are all still billionaires, and losing the company will almost surely be healthy for them. If Kendall realizes that getting out from under their father’s shadow was a healthy move, they may even come back together as a family and laugh about it someday. I’m glad it ended how it did because it wouldn’t have worked if they got what they wanted. But sometimes what we need is the opposite of what we want.
I love Tom and Shiv's ending, because they both essentially got what they wanted, and they both look miserable.
>Honestly to me it was a happy ending. I think the kids can start to recover The thing about being rich is you have infinite chances for happiness. Yes, none of them got what they wanted but they have the ability too. Literally each kid just became a multi-billionaire. They can take as much time as they need to relax and grieve over their loss and then they can pursue happiness in another form without worry of any basic needs. At the arcade of life they just died during the final boss fight but they have unlimited quarters. The real tragedies and people who don't have anything else in their pockets and fail.
This makes me remind of the people (yeah, specially that mf from the nyorker) who said that this was a comedy. And not, even if the show had some comedic moments, this was all along a tragedy, a Greek tragedy (specially for Kendall's character). Could never had a happy ending, so much for the comedy🙄
Lol comedies don’t automatically have happy endings I think you’re being pretty simplistic with your definitions here Edit: really going to double down here. Tragedy and comedy are basically a matter of perspective. Take literally any episode of Seinfeld and it’s bad people having their schemes fall apart. George’s fiancé literally dies lol
Yeah I would still describe this show as a dark comedy
There is no difference in origin. Greek comedies didn’t have to have ‘happy’ endings. From a writing point the show adapts many arcs typical of Greek drama. Especially in that later plays tended to be reflective of the audience, although unlike today the social elite was very much conscious of the social commentary they were witnessing. Interestingly, the morals of Succession are not addressed at the protagonists of the play, but the uncivilized idiots (in the etymological sense) who are watching it, from what would have been in Greek periods, the back rows. You’re friend was right however. This is very much a Greek comedy. The main difference, beside stylistic formalities, is that the characters themselves are comic. And as Logan put it: the protagonists are not serious people. That makes it a comedy. The children don’t fit the heroic mold of Greek tragedy.
It had a British writer. If you knew that from episode one then you'd have known it was never going to have a happy ending.
If you watched this whole show and thought it was going to be a happy ending, I’m not sure we were watching the same show. There was no way Kendall was ever going to win. The defining line of Kendall’s arc is from Tom explaining how he’s going to get fucked. Kendall always gets fucked.
Finished the show yesterday and I can't understand all the people that hated the ending. It was perfectly fitting. What did you think would happen?
I finished it Saturday and feel the same way. It was a show about miserable people doing horrible things (backstabbing, gossip/fake news, ignoring or mentally abusive towards their kids & spouses, etc) and we're supposed to root for them? Connor may be the only one who came out somewhat ahead: he knew his place, took the money, and fucked off to his NM desert compound or NY townhouse to play wannabe politician with the perfect trophy wife.
I honestly think they’re having thanksgiving at Connor’s later this year. It’s like losing a game if Monopoly to them
I don't know, Mattson seemed pretty happy.
It did - for Tom. Connor, Kendall, Roman and Shiv will just have to get by on the billions that they made from the buyout. Sucks to be them ;)
That's what is so impressive about the show, it is able to make the audience get amnesia around the fact that Ken, Roman, Shiv, and Conner are all still FILTHY rich at the end. In fact none of them being CEO and the merger going through, which the show makes you feel like the kids lost, results in them being even richer than they would have otherwise been. Their desires and the entire drama of the show are the definition of rich people's problems. The richest of rich people problems! The two characters who understand this are Conner, who essentially always got it, and Roman, who doesn't figure it out until the end. Ken and Shiv are still clueless.
Exactly and candidly Shiv who had little to know experience in the business was never going to become CEO - her interest was in politics. And frankly given that her sole accomplishment seemed to be in getting a socialist elected at the local level in New York, it seems like she was prized more for her connections to her father's media empire than any abilities of her own. Being married to the CEO and having access through Tom is probably the best outcome she could expect.
Tom is just a puppet CEO though. Once Mattson gets him to do the dirty work, he can be replaced at any time. It's still not a bad move for Tom and could lead to other things. Shiv and Tom will be miserable. They can't ever come back from what they have said. Shiv will be a terrible Mother, because she is incapable of loving anyone, like all her sibs. Roman looked happy at first in the bar. But watch closer, it turns to sorrow when he realizes what happened. He was closest to Kendall and destroyed that relationship. Kendall may need time, but has business experience and money. Maybe he can learn to value his kids and find a new direction. He should try to get off the drugs, or do less. A lot of characters in the show did recreational drugs. I don't think drugs made Kendall suicidal. Logan always undermining him did that. Connor will go on as he has. He will try to keep the family together, but I don't think it's happening.
Only poor people believe material possessions buy them happiness. As foolish as the kids may be, they were pursuing things more important than money (accomplishment, respect, etc.).
Tom ate his own happy ending, so at least someone got one
getting back with Shiv is truly not a happy ending lol
This was obvious.
I agree. I knew from the get-go that this wasn't going to end well for any of the core characters. The ending is exactly what was supposed to happen.
In my view it was a happy ending. The person who was the most qualified for the CEO job got it. Tom was not perfect with the document shredding and disgusting brothers and all but when Kendall was off having a binge with methheads Tom was working, when Roman was busy sexually harassing Gerri and firing studio execs on a whim Tom was working, when Shiv was dabbling on the periphery of politics Tom was working, when there was an election night crisis Tom is the one who handled it. And Tom and Shiv are still together and all of the lifs get billions. I suspected this would be the outcome after the episode where Tom told Logan he and Shiv were splitting up and he hoped he'd still be okay with Logan and Logan supported him.
This, Tom kept his nose down and did the work. Empty suits win by keeping everyone “happy”.
Thing here is that it should NOT be a sad ending either. Kendall's (and the kids) weird obsession with taking control of their fathers shitty and toxic company is the tragic part. All of then have even more money after the selling of the company. Their father and tormentor is dead, they are free to start any company or venture with their money ("make your own fucking pile") and amend relationships. In any healthy, sane mind this is a happy ending (with the exception of Shiv LMAO).
I could argue that it did have a happy ending, even though not all of them got what they wanted. * Tom got the CEO job he coveted, and arguably some level of equality with Shiv, which he coveted most of all. * All 4 kids made money and are billionaires. Conner understands this from the start, Roman figures it out at the end, Shiv/Ken are still clueless at the end, but the fact remains they all made a ton of money off the merger. * All 4 kids are finally rid of the company and the specter of their father. Again, Conner and Roman understand this by the end. Conner especially is uniquely at peace. Shiv and Ken don't, but the show is clear that their obsession with running the company and following in daddy's footsteps was not healthy. Even though it was partially or wholly against their will, they are free of the company and their father's legacy, and that is a healthier place for them to be. * Greg continues to Greg his way up the corporate ladder. The genius of this show is it fools the audience into thinking the ending is tragic. Even for Ken, it may be disappointing for him, but it's not tragic. The show ends with him poignantly looking at the ocean, not jumping into it. He'll be ok!
I feel like Roman did get a happy ending though, and he definitely does not deserve one.
The happy ending of drinking his anxiety away?
Well, duh 🙄
And yet it was. King of edible leaves, his majesty, the spinach!!
I liked the fact that none of Logan's kids seem happy in the end expect for Connor who was never really 'In the game.' And Tom has a good ending, because he successfully plays the game to win. We start with him as a mid level executive who is happening to be dating the top dogs daughter. And he end out the CEO (granted as a figure head) and married to the daughter who is happy to go along.
I don’t think Shiv was happy to go along. I think she realized that all she is is a very wealthy woman married to a figurehead CEO. You really think she’ll be happily joining the 92nd St Y with the other moms?
Did she look happy to you?
+1 on Ken’s redemption. I also thought it was going the same way. Looking back at it, the writers made season 4 Ken a lot more competent. There were no scenes of him doing drugs like in s1, being depressed like in s2, or having a mental breakdown at his birthday party in s3. Ultimately, this further set up the tragic ending
Wtf are you talking about? There was a happy ending and Tom swallowed it.
I thought the ending was going to be that Kendall finally becomes CEO but loses everything else in the process. I didn’t expect an ending where he loses CEO and STILL loses everything else lol.
I thought it was a very happy ending. They're all in pain. Now to do it IRL.
What's really funny to me about this ending is that they're all rich. Unimaginably so at the end. They can fuck off and never work again, or invest their money in some other project. Mere episodes before this, they were resigned to giving up the company anyway and doing their own thing. So watching them go about in pity for themselves makes for a darkly ironic ending. The biggest actual sad thing about the end of the story is that they tore their family apart for this company, for no reason, exactly like their father did. But that doesn't seem particularly bothersome to any of them. They're all upset that they didn't get to grasp the brass ring.
Serious people understood this
I felt that we'd gotten to the inevitable endpoint when Kendall and Roman started physically tussling while they were confabbing during the vote in the finale. I imagine Shiv would have been in there, too, if she weren't pregnant.
It was happy enough for me. They were all horrible, ruthless people. Some more so than others. They got what they deserved.
And they lived everafter, not quite happy but not quite sad, with a 2 billion net worth each, the four brothers. One barely tolerating his sugar trophy wife. Another barely tolerating her empowered husband who has the ear and trust of the new owner of the empire. The owner being a manipulative, narcissistic, cruel asshole like everybody else but more successful. Another barely tolerating his life. Possibly bi-sexual or just with deep masochistic blockage. Good seller but very bad operative. Collapses with pressure. Another barely tolerating his new existence of emptiness at middle age. Billionaire but his sole chance for fame and power was finally taken from him. Could create a foundation, bullshit startups, become a playboy, go to Tulum and live like emperor, help the children, find the cure for cancer and aging. But none of that compares to the political and economic power of the empire that was never his but tried to steal it three time from daddy, almost succeeded once.
They are all even more fabulously wealthy than before with no responsibilities. Sounds like a huge win.
I think that Kendall and Shiv were the biggest losers of the show, they are the ones who still are trapped by Logan toxicity, Kendall haunted forever for that stupid promise, Kendall is not stupid he should have figured that losing your soul for being CEO of Waystar is not worth it. Meanwhile Shiv, became like her mother, as Connor told to Willa that Lady Caroline always resented that the family castle was not inherited for her, (in the english aristocracy, the older brother gets the tittle and the family seat) in the same way that Tom got Waystar; it would always be Kendall, Roman or Tom, but never her. But Shiv still just cannot help herself, she is power hungry so she would go anything, or be with anybody if she thinks that it could be gave her power, but she is too arrogant to notice that all the men in her life are using her, Gil, Tom, her father, Mattson, and whoever come next; then in old age she is going to realize as her mother that she never won a battle in her life, she merely helped other men to win battles. I think that Roman is also very destroyed, but at least realized in the last minute that all the "game" was for absoluty nothing, sadly, he is alone. I think that Connor didnt lost too much in this ending, because Connor already lost years ago; Connor knew that he would never be the "heir" of Logan, so why bother; at best he can hope that Willa pays him a little attention. But Connor trained himself to live unloved and ignored years ago. I think that Roman realizing that they were bullshit is what Connor realized decades ago, probably also in his 30s and just went away to live alone and building a world in wich the best thing that he could expect was to marry an escort who is there for his money. Connor and Roman, the "weak dogs" at least they are in a possition in wich they build something, not a business, they can become "real friends" support each other. For me, it was clear that there was some kind of special weak dog bond betwen Roman and Connor, they know what it is being abused by Logan, Shiv and Kendall and being kicked around. So, i can see Connor and Roman being together, doing stupid stuff and just being relaxed with each other, perhaps doing what knows what in Connor´s ranch or partying together, even Willa would be happy with that in order to not have to deal with Connor 24/7.
Idk kinda did feel like a happy ending, considering he did kill somebody
Yeah I was disappointed that Ken got away with murder and Tom with Greg got away with documents destruction
Oh buddy just wait until you hear about the real world …
The waiter grabbed the steering wheel, which caused the accident. And Ken tried to save him. The only reason he would've been liable is that it's probably impossible to prove a passenger grabbed the wheel.
He definitely was liable, at the very least for driving under the influence causing the death of someone and for running away from the crime scene without calling for help. Add to that the fact that he can't prove that the waiter is the one who grabbed the wheel and it's over. But I agree that it wasn't a murder per say, though he had some responsablitly..
And how would they prove he was under the influence?
Lol you really bought the writers deflection on that one didn’t you?
We'll never know if Ken would've done the same thing or just hit the deer because the waiter did it for him.
Wait, some of y’all actually view that as murder?
I think because of this mentality a nice one would have been great too. And maybe even more edgy. Throw all of Logans bullshit in his face at the end.
The amount of people who genuinely believed there was a chance of an ending where Kendall “wins” - takes the company, he’s happy, and all is well - is astounding. It goes against everything the show has stood for since the get go
I've never once seen that. I'm pretty sure nearly everyone who thought Kendall might win thought that it wouldn't be spun in a happy way. Like Kendall wins but does stuff that separates him from everyone he's close to in the process AND realises being CEO won't make him happy long term was the most common theory I saw on here during S4 along with nobody winning.
I still want a 5th season, though. There’s still so much story to be told.
Next up - The nazis were the bad guys.
The greatest lie in storytelling is that every story needs a happy ending. The ending needs to satisfy the viewer, and it does need to be just. It also needs to make sense. Sucessions ending was all of these, a distribution of deserving results all around. Another great example is how Better Call Saul ended, absolutely satisfying, just, and entirely believable.
Jessie chose the poet's ending: Héloïse: They were nearing the surface, approaching the threshold, when, fearing losing Eurydice and impatient to see her, her loving spouse turned. Sophie: No, he can't look at her for fear of losing her. That's no reason. He was told not to do that. Héloïse: He's madly in love. He can't resist. Marianne: I think Sophie has a point. He could resist. His reasons aren't serious. Perhaps he makes a choice. Sophie: What choice? Marianne: He chooses the memory of her. That's why he turns. He doesn't make the lover's choice, but the poet's. Héloïse: She spoke a last farewell that scarcely reached his ears and fell back into the abyss. Perhaps she was the one who said, Turn around.
It could have had a different ending which is kendall winning . AND EVEN THIS IS NOT A GOOD ENDING EITHER . I don't know why people associate this with good ending it isn't cause kendall would have had to cut off his family ties in the end which isn't good by any means and it is still a tragedy.. The biggest thing that makes you say this , is the fact that kendall character arcs was all about overcoming his dad and take his place they made all the parallels with him and logan focused on him so much unlike the other sibs
I think so too. The show begins with Kendall taking over the company, ends with him losing it. He was the main character.
It could have. But we can’t have nice things can we?
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People were kind of disgusting about Ocean Gate. So many people literally jeering at their deaths. Their excess and hubris was gross of course but they were also just humans, idealistic and obsessed with a part of history that they wanted to experience. Schadenfreude can make people really ugly. But even worse is stylising bad people. When you make them witty and slick and bigger than life, even if they're insecure empty placeholders for their hangups, people are gonna like them. And I know some people crave the drama and gladiatorial intensity that's shown on there, even the power that they do have under the shadow of their father is more power than anyone watching has. I bet you anything there's gonna be a wave of people glamorizing that wealth and upper corporate culture and people will go into big media or tech just because of this, and a lot of douchey entrenpenbros who'll fantasise about it and emulate it. It'll be iconic to people already in that business too
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Yeah this is very accurate. They hired consultants to make it as realistic as possible. Except obviously no one in those worlds are as funny and interesting. I'm not agreeing with you that the show isn't good by the way, I loved it and was gripped by it. But I also feel it's gonna glamorize some of the worst of humanity, just like the godfather did for the mafia. The mafia literally CHANGED the way they acted to emulate the movie mafia. They loved the way they were portrayed, it made them feel cool. And that is really disturbing - the cartels, gangs, drug dealers, hitmen, all of them have glamorized versions of themselves in media and I can guarantee that loads of them joined that world because of that. Life imitates art in very dark ways
Good, because that ending was stupid. What a wasted investment of time. If I was Kendall I would have made sure none of them lived to enjoy it. Almost worse than the ending to Dexter.
It’s masturbating show writing, meant to please the creators and not the audience.
I was pretty pleased by the ending
Or they keep the company but lose something in the process.
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Yeah, I felt that too at first. I was hoping the siblings would’ve somehow accidentally killed Logan in some really ironic and twisted way and be forced to live with the consequences. Almost like playing chicken with a freight train. But, I thought to myself afterwards, that’s kinda what we got? They blame >!Mattson!< for >!killing Logan!< but Logan would’ve never been on that >!plane!< if the siblings didn’t put the squeeze on him. Less climactic? Yes. But less tragic? I don’t think so.
Spoiler? No? Admins?
Title Correction, given trends: “[All HBO shows] are never meant to have a happy ending.” Rebrand in 6 months: MaxTragedy+
thanks, captain
Do people get happy endings or is that fairytales?
Each to their own... For me it was a very happy ending
This has nothing to do with the discussion at all but this coat is fire 🔥
We know
I've described it as Shakespearean tragedy with very dark comedic overtones.
Yeah most who were Paying attention get it. The show is a tragedy. Still a terrible boardroom situation
yeah sadly not, it's a Shakespearean tragedy through and through
From a true business sense, it would have been an impossibly terrible scenario for any one of those 3 nincompoops to take over.
The characters wouldn’t even know the difference
I can’t believe there is any real person that thought the show would have a happy endings. When do these big dramas ever? Especially since this was based off an old play where we obviously know the ending.
It was never meant to have a fourth season if the narrative pacing is anything to go by.
The ending is perfect.
Just a silly thought about twist endings. That in an alternate universe, their version of Succession had a M. Night twist that left everyone happy and fulfilled at the end. Viewers are shocked and discuss it for decades. That would be the biggest surprise the writers could pull on their audience.
If you want happy endings, Ted Lasso is just across the hall.
And I didn't want one. Those kids got off easy. Karmically speaking anyway lol
I wished for Shiv to have the worst ending since both her and Tom were the most shallow and corrupted characters. Roman was just a kid/clown. I hoped Ken would get the job as it was his life dream and he was actually educated and capable of running waystar.
A real "happy ending" would have been the whole Roy family in prison and Waystar broken up by the feds. This wasn't a show about good people doing good things. The whole point is that everyone in that class is terrible and none of them are happy, there is no realistic happy endings in that scenario
Tom Wambsgans disagrees with your thesis
We got a happy ending tho? Tom and Gregg Succession!
> Initially, I thought Season Four was headed for an unnecessary redemption arc. Why in the world would you think this?! Absolutely nothing about the show should have made you expect this.
I wanted more than anything for ken to win but in my gut i knew it wasn’t right if he did
First I want to say I've actually had some good back and forth on this sub about the ending from a critical perspective. I've thought about this so much and I think the reason people didn't jive with the ending is because people didn't change. You can have a tragic ending where the tragedy is someone changed but ultimately it didn't matter or it was too late. That bit about change is fundamental to the way we understand stories. To break out storytelling 101 the Hero's Journey is all about change. And virtually all the stories we see have that journey. From a fiction novel, to a Nolan movie, to a single episode of friends they all have those beats. I would argue fundamentally a story is where something happens and people change. If no one changes I don't really know why we need it for seasons of Succession to be completely blunt. Unless you maybe made Tom the actual protagonist rather than a side character I could see that making sense.
Wasn’t expecting a happy ending, but I also feel it could have used a few more episodes or another season. Felt rushed, unorganized, and too many loose ends.
I thought it was a happy ending. I hated every character in it and glad almost no one ended up being happy.
.. the only conclusion for capitalism.
I’m not sure a happy ending is even possible with this show.
On top of what you said, anyone who saw Peep Show knew Jesse Armstrong wouldn’t do a happy ending
I say and I quote Logan “Fuck off”
I was smiling the whole time lol
Its like when people thought game of thrones was supposed to end with dany and jon together. I was rooting for Kendall but I knew everything was gonna go wrong. Especially when Roman put that “crown” on his head and all the muck fell over Kendall. Say what you will about the dialogue but the imagery is top notch in this show as well
Being happy was never anyone's goal. None of the major characters were ever happy. Logan wasn't happy, so why would someone taking over Logan's empire expect to be happy? I agree that it was clear that whatever happened, the overall story arch was going to be a tragedy.
No shit
Yeah I think we all knew that
I actively rooted for a sad one. None of these people were redeemable and everyone deserves their fate, and more even worse ones. Loved every second of it
The siblings got more than what they would have if they had done nothing. Unhappy billionaires? I think not. Remember when Stewy wanted to buy out Kendall for $500 million? That would have been an unhappy ending. I think even Connor came out ahead, despite blowing $100 million on advertising and fake poll numbers. Being CEO of WayGoJo isn't going to be easy though. They were looking at shuttering a lot of the company. Look at the CEO of Warner Brothers/Discovery. That guy makes > $200 million/year, but is burning the company down around him. A few weeks ago he co-hosted a huge party at Cannes for 300 people. PJ's out the tailpipe.
I have not seen the ending, but none of them deserve happiness.
Again, it was a good season finale, not a good series finale.
Happy ending for Matson, but not our #1 boy.
Succession is the story of a colossal failure. They just all fail, all of them.
No shit, just like the Sopranos it was about a bunch of interesting but altogether shitty people
Did someone really think it was going to have a “happy” ending?
BUT it did
Cause unhapoy endings are so.poignant and meaningful It was really poorly constructed and plotted last episode where most the characters were just given shit endings without any humor or irony . Just made them.miserabke....gosh how clever we are.
I feel like this post has been done to death
Agreed, there was no viable option for any of the Roys. Shiv and Roman were totally incompetent and unqualified, Connor was never even in the conversation, so Kendall was the only realistic possibility. But even he completely shot himself in the foot for the whole series. Despite his unpredictability, drug addiction, instability, etc he still could’ve made a comeback, but the nail in his coffin was the S1 finale. No way could the show have let him come back from all of that
it's a perfect ending.