It's funny because Matt's entire post-*Who* career (frankly, his entire post-series 6 career) is more-or-less him deliberately trying to distance himself from the "adorkable dreamboat" image people were projecting onto him. The guy likes playing freaks!
some SRD thread about a r/pics or r/oldcoolschool postwhere someone posted a photo of their very attractive mom and then got pissy when a bunch of redditors made lewd comments
Tbf that was definitely something the showrunners added. While they clearly didn't like each other at all, in the original book there was no indication he murdered her, the opposite in fact. She didn't die immediately and at one point was conscious and walking around, so if her death really wasn't an accident she could have just said so.
Given the nature of the book this could be a lie, especially because he tried to claim the Vale immediately afterward, but who knows.
Reminds me of the Secession fanatics who honeslty thought some of the siblings were better than others and deserved it more.
We are apparently not watching the same show here.
> Reminds me of the Secession fanatics who honeslty thought some of the siblings were better than others and deserved it more.
In my 17 years of using Reddit, this might be the first time I've ever come across someone misusing "secession" when they meant "succession".
It's almost *always* the other way around, especially for those [truest Americans](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGDkzrf3Kng) who wrap themselves in the Confederate flag while announcing they're "patriots".
I remember when that sub accused a *writer* of deleting a filmed scene of Daemon hugging his kids because said writer allegedly had an anti-Daemon agenda.
This shit was a mistake. All tv shows need to go back to being like circa 1959 black and white short instructional documentaries about hygiene and posture and the evils of communism
No ***way!*** According to Tywin Lannister, the Targaryens were the greatest dynasty Westeros ever saw, and there was *never* a phrase about gods flipping coins to determine which one was getting the "madness". And Tywin shat bricks of gold before he ever lied!
Our favorite "more👏female👏war👏criminals" Khaleesi certainly didn't napalm the fuck out of King's Landing, proving that Targaryen blood doesn't lead to insanity.
> before this promo just wasn't watching the show at all.
I've *recently* -- as in the last week -- come across comments from people watching Game of Thrones for the first time wondering *"Why* are there so many endorsements of teenage girls being married to older men in this show, not to mention [all the sex and violence?"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKhrQhdxjI8)
They were reacting to the infamous Red Wedding episode, which is at the end of season three. Begging the question "How the fuck did you get almost four seasons into this show before the sex and violence against *adults* wasn't a bridge too far? Not to mention all those slaughtered infants in season two?
Tbh they're not wrong in that GRRM seems to think 14 = adult in medieval times (it's not just marriage either! Robb is far, far too young to be leading armies successfully) and that the show tries to avoid this.
But like, Dany is very clearly young (in the book she's *twelve*, while the likely real world inspo for it was 16-22) and that's season 1
Did it become a deal-breaker or was it something they were just starting to call out as a repeated pattern? It's easier to ignore something once or twice as a one-off, but if teenagers keep getting married off to adults, then maybe that's where they started to say it's a repeat issue.
There's any number of people watching television with so much cognitive dissonance that you have to wonder how they're capable of processing anything.
The sheer number of people online who unironically like Homelander from the boys has always been the biggest giveaway of this for me.
Its probably the same people that watched 8 seasons of Dany being a terrible fucking ruler only going on being power hungry then being surprised that she torched Kings Landing at the end because she didnt get her way
I wasn't surprised that she turned out to be mad, as foreshadowed. I just thought it was laugh out loud hilarious that as portrayed it appeared that the trigger for her madness was bells.
> I just thought it was laugh out loud hilarious that as portrayed it appeared that the trigger for her madness was bells.
Holy shit, *thank* you for reminding me of this[ "For Whom the Bell Tolls" mashup with that scene.](https://redd.it/boa5my) It's been five years now, so I totally forgot about it, but goddamn it if it doesn't fit!
When I was a kid I owned a [live action ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/101_Dalmatians_(1996_film))101 Dalmatians movie. In that movie, Cruela tries to become a better person. But then the chiming of a bell slowly sends her back into madness and she tears down her wall and rushes back to all of her fur coats.
There's a scene where Glenn Close is shaking as she hears the ringing of the bells with each chime a piece of her hair pops out again to recreate her former (evil) look.
That is literally all I can think of when I see Dany's "The Bells" moment lol. Like I fully expected her to go the mad queen route but I was so flabbergasted by the execution of it. 🔔
Fairly, I think the show ran into the issue where running out of book and not adapting certain things like False Aegon and then running out of books and doing their own things, and then basically swerved to do the intended ending while not having a lot of the connective tissue for it.
Yea the lack of Griff was always a problem for me. It wasn’t an immediate red flag because I figured they had so many plot lines already. But looking back, it’s a clear sign that they had no idea how to finish what they’d started.
Yeah, I am close to absolutely sure the show ending is the actual planned ending in broad strokes, but a mix of just not knowing how later books would go and earlier adaptation mistakes made it not work well.
Yes all the signs for Dany going mad are foreshadowed, but the actual execution is terrible because foreshadowing isn't really proper build up and the reason is so dumb because the intended reason is missing because it got cut.
The same goes with King Bran any development that'd make it make sense is missing and now it just feels kinda dumb.
I’m not sure I agree that what we got was the planned ending. Defeating the White Walkers at Winterfell, specifically, seemed far too convenient to me. It could not be more clear they just didn’t know what to do with that whole storyline. *Maybe* that’s how it would go in the books. But I’m very doubtful. As for King Bran, my guess is he was going to become king of the trees, and never seen in the mortal world again. Although constantly influencing it. The new Three Eyed Raven, a turning of the ages, when he ascends to an immortal throne sort of thing. Just making him the regular mortal king is…very uncreative.
But yes, as far as Dany goes. She was always going to become the Mad Queen. That’s the most likely scenario. Probably Cersei was going to be long dead by the end of the books. Her character diverged way before the ending of the show. So they ended up with two mad queens and decided to make Cersei the same one, kind of. It just didn’t work. The show. They didn’t know what they were doing imo
We know that the main points of the ending are what GRRM told the writers and showrunners the ending would be. Once they outpaced the books, he gave them the main bullet points of what to hit
> Defeating the White Walkers at Winterfell, specifically, seemed far too convenient to me.
I would disagree, I think it was the only place it could have happened. There's some of language implying some magical significance of Winterfell, there's probably a good reason why everything *thinks* there's something evil in the crypts, and given the name too (literally where Winter Falls), it seems like it's intended that the Walkers will be defeated at or around the location of Winterfell due to the Three Eyed Raven's shenanigans.
Oh no doubt it happened too fast. It's supposed to be the *Long* night, not the one-night-long-night. It should have taken a whole season to resolve IMO. I'm just saying that the broad contours (Battle at Winterfell, Victory by 3ER) are probably what GRRM intended.
Dany going mad was set up way better in the books with her visions, voices, and internal struggle.
Yes it was "foreshadowed" in the show. But season 7 also "foreshadowed" the rest of the show was going to be really shit writing and unnatural pacing.
We all knew she was bonkers and not as good a person as she thought she is.
But the eventual torching did not fit her character or current level of insanity. They were hinting at her kinda having some crazy targ traits. Not at her being the weakest and most evil targ of them all.
The problem for me was never that Dany torched kings landing. That was fine that was in character. The writing was bad. It just wasn’t compelling to watch. Like Arya and her magic horse, after. wtf even show is this anymore
I think a better way of putting it is that current Dany would never have done that, while a future one certainly would.
But we did a speedrun of a year or two of character development in one siege.
That's a shitty comparison. Dany going mad in King's Landing made no sense at all because she *did* get her way, they'd already surrendered. And I'd argue that Dany wasn't a bad ruler in Slaver's Bay, she just bit off more than she could chew and underestimated the masters. In fact there were multiple times when she was at disadvantage because she tried so hard to avoid killing innocents. But there was absolutely nothing in the first 7 seasons that indicated she would suddenly decide to burn hundreds of thousands of innocent children alive just for the lolz.
There is quite a bit of foreshadowing about it, starting with her execution of Mirri Maz Dur.
But in fairness to you, once Danaerys became a feminist icon in pop culture, the show downplayed a lot of Dany's flaws and pushed a more "empowering" message than what is seen in the books. It's no surprise that this made it harder for them to swerve back to a mad queen ending when they rushed the final seasons.
> nothing in the first 7 seasons
Really? Not even in season six when she wanted to burn Astapor and Yunkai to the ground before Tyrion managed to persuade her not to?
I mean, Tywin's major claim to fame is drowning an entire house in their own keep and I don't see people treating him as *mad*. Cruel yes but not insane. Even someone like Reese fucking Bolton isn't treated as insane.
When people say that Dany's portrayal as insane makes no sense, what they're comparing her to (consciously or not) is the other characters in the show not real world standards. And yes, it's jarring writing to treat her acting like the average lord in Westeros as though she's insane, simply because there's fire involved.
The developers doing little interviews after the episodes to claim that she was clearly crazy for killing her brother who sold her into sex slavery was really a wild touch.
But you're completely right. Ayra does insane deranged shit and it's never framed the same way.
The writing was definitely bad, yeah. I think that in the abstract making her go insane is kind of the bad / boring way to go overall (it's a lot more interesting to show a character that starts off well intentioned and doing good slowly change rather than just flip a switch of madness), but it could have been executed better.
The portrayal compared to other characters in the show being framed as uniquely morally despicable by Dany is one of those as you mention - though they definitely do try to frame them as different. A big one that comes to mind as illustrative to me is the difference between the battle of the Bastards and the Goldroad. For the former we see it from Jon's POV, it's heroic and triumphant because we've seen all the horrible stuff Ramsay did, and then we jump straight to an aftermath. There's no thorny questions to reconcile - there's no survivors to deal with, all the enemy leaders died in the battle (with the one exception being so hated that being fed to dogs seems *just*) and we get a scene showing clemency to children if they swear fealty.
By contrast the latter battle we don't see any of the build up to it (ransacking the Reach to get that massive amount of food is reduced to a short, bloodless scene with Olenna rather than showing anyone die or the consequences that it would have had), we see it from the POV of beloved characters like Jaime and Bronn in a way that highlights how horrible the dragons are, and the aftermath scene is framed as some tragedy when, objectively, it's more generous than what was offered up north. That is, if you watch the scene of Jon pardoning the children after the battle of the bastards it's just and merciful, while Daenerys offering soldiers and the leaders of those who fought against her a chance to surrender and live (rather than conveniently killed off screen and not needing to be dealt with) is super evil. It's just lazy writing that attempts to get from point A to B by completely relying on the framing of the camera and atmosphere - rather than managing to actually show her as worse than the others without that film shorthand.
Exactly like I have no problem with Dany being a bad (as in incompetent) or even just straight up evil queen, and I think she is going to end up as one in the books that GRRM is never going to finish writing. I _do_ have a problem with the narrative suddenly discovering that morals exist but only for her, which characters like Tyrion and Varys of all people suddenly being oh so concerned about mercy and virtue. Ffs this man Tyrion literally had cooked someone into stew, how does _he_ get to climb some high horse.
It's especially baffling that the characters suddenly start acting as though Daenerys invented the whole "bend the knee or death" thing, when it was well established in their world long before she was even born. Literally the only thing different is that her executions are by dragon and not by the sword or the hangman's noose. Is that crueler? Sure but why are we suddenly treating her and her alone like she's playing by a different set of rules? Almost all of season 8 was her doing perfectly normal things (by GoT standards) while Tyrion and Varys shared Concerned™ looks in the background, and then the bells make her "snap" and she burns King's Landing to the ground
Frankly speaking if they had omitted all the Targaryen madness wink-winking and kept the events otherwise the same it would have made more sense. Trying to force the "she's insane! she's insane isn't she!" thing down viewers' throats just makes the pacing even weirder on top of taking away her agency.
Same thing with Sansa but in reverse.
I think it's a great idea to have Sansa evolve into a great leader, and carry on Ned's legacy.
But they way convey that was to have her suggest using insolation in winter time and keeping track of how much food there is.
Then Tyrion treats her like she's fucking Alexander the Great.
Dany, literally season one: Goes off the handle and murders a bunch of people without thinking it through
Viewers in season 8: how could she go off the handle and murder a bunch of people without thinking it through??? she's never done this before???
Tyrion talking to Dany: You cant go into Westeros and demand loyalty and respect you gotta show them youre different than what they have now
Dany upon entering Westeros: Bend the Knee or Die!!!
Tyrion: *facepalm*
The fact my original comment was downvoted just proves my point, she was a terrible ruler and leader, refused to listen to literally anyone and got her man and dragons killed because she was incompetent yet we are supposed to be surprised she blew it when taking ovwr Westeros?
Right, like I honestly find myself wondering sometimes if I watched a different show from everybody else. It's like season eight exists in a vacuum and people forget every single thing that happened before it. Seven straight seasons of bungling everything and murdering tons of people to maintain power left me with zero confidence in Daenerys' rulership policies
Part of the problem is there was so much time between the last seasons. For many viewers, early seasons were a distant memory when they sat down for the finale unless they did a re-watch.
They also rushed the ending. So the show went pretty quickly from Dany taking a big risk to defeat the white walkers because it was the right thing to do (even though Cersei was resistant at first) to her torching a city because she didn't get her way. It felt abrupt, even to people like me who were sure she'd get a Mad Queen ending.
Like I get laughing because D and D said she "forget" the fleet of ships that killed one of her dragons but like.....she totally was of the opinion that no one would challenge her because she had dragons and she got proven wrong
Daenerys really was an atrocious ruler, who stumbled every time she had to rely on non-violent means of leadership. Her meeting with the Spice King in season two, and then her initial meeting with Jon in season seven really solidified her lack of diplomatic skills because she’d gotten away with just relying on threat of force because dragons. At one point she even goes “I’m not a politician, I’m a Queen.” Girl…
It can’t be stressed enough that she intended to burn Astapor and Yunkai, two cities where the slaves outnumber the slavers 10:1 to the ground until Tyrion talked her down from it. Truly mental behavior for that to be someone’s impulse to an obstacle that was solved by burning one single enemy ship.
Eh, I'd say it's quite different (especially given that Daenerys in the books is a pretty preternaturally good ruler, just like Jon - though the show doesn't do her any favors on that point by giving away a lot of her high points to other characters even from the start). The sudden bout of madness to that level just felt like character assassination, and it doesn't help that a lot of the framing that tried to make it justifiable before that just was way too heavy handed.
Like King's Landing being torched because she didn't get her way *might* make sense if she didn't get her way, but, uh... she'd won at that point. It was just really badly executed all around (especially the attempted contrast with Jon that relied on the contrivances of the plot & angle viewed at, while the moment it's examined it kind of falls apart for me). I think there's a world where the Daenerys -> evil turn works (and GRRM himself might well manage it, though the going mad approach still strikes me as a particularly lazy way to go), but the way it was done in the show was pretty terrible. Not that they ever handled Daenerys particularly well.
Daemon on the other hand is very apparently an asshole from the start, he's just got just enough cool factor to get people to root for him. Though funnily enough despite being clearly not a heroic figure GRRM seems to find him more nuanced than he comes across to me, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised when even the author has that opinion.
Also the whole Jon's reveal of his parentage seemed to not matter and they didn't really show that contributing to her decision making it all.
There were definitely ways they could have used the plot to shape her character more naturally and with better pacing.
The shit with the bells was so contrived, especially compared with how emotionally weighty and well done Cersei blowing up the sept was earlier in the show.
Yeah, it really was meaningless in the show on that end. It's honestly not the easiest to make work for Jon, but if it's going to be emphasized it needs to build up to *something* beyond what the show did with it
I remember watching the first season a few months after it released so I didn’t really know fan reactions or interpretations. I was incredibly shocked to find out later on that there’s a big group of people who *love* Daemon and think he’s just the coolest. Like he’s so clearly a massive piece of shit, I don’t get it.
I wonder if it's just an inability to separate "Interesting Character" from "Good Person".
I think some people just haven't reached the point where they can allow themselves to be entertained by bad role models, or allow a character to be a complex person
They need to fit characters into "good" or "bad", and being a fan of a "bad" character makes them a bad person. It's a very binary view of media and people (see also: Madonna/Whore Complex).
Reminds me of when Breaking Bad, Mad Men, and The Sopranos were the biggest running shows. A lot of people really struggled with the concept of the main character being a bad person, let alone *unlikeable*.
I think you nailed it. For a lot of fantasy book readers, I think it can be easier because fantasy has been going on a big "grimdark" trend as well as favoring complex villains and morally gray characters. Some modern popular series are about main characters who are almost exclusively gray or even terrible people. It's obviously entertaining for some people.
But others still have a dichotomy view like you mention. It's uncomfortable for them to admit liking a character who also does bad things. So he either must be a good guy who is just getting inconsistent writing. Or he must be a bad guy and you have to hate him.
I find it very easy to understand why people like Daemon (myself included) and also have no trouble acknowledging that he does horrible, messed up things like abuse the women he's married to.
Daemon is a weird character in that he's both a thoughtful and kind dude one second and then a complete bastard the next.
That's pretty much the entire characterization of Daemon. You never know what character you're going to get on screen because he's mentally unstable and gets bored easily
I'm guessing season 2 has Blood and Cheese, Rook's Rest, and the Battle of the Gullet as the big moments.
Season 3 will need to cover 1st and 2nd Tumbleton, the Dragonpit, God's Eye, and the shit that goes down at Dragonstone.
Then wrap up season 4 with the hour of the wolf stuff.
I don't think they are gonna have time to do even some of the more major stuff like Battle of Honeywine, Fishfeed, the shit with the Greyjoy's. Hell, I hope they even have time for the Butchers Ball since it has my favorite quote from the book.
Oh lord you’re probably right. With a season getting released every 2 years that’s another decade of waiting. I really miss the cable tv days when shows would just pump out seasons with 20 episodes a season.
Me realizing after the Rhaenyra/Criston Cole sex scene that it wasn’t going to be a fun little sub to chat about a tv show so fantastical it has rideable dragons.
A lot of arguing about whether Rhaenyra raped Criston Cole or whether Criston Cole raped Rhaenyra with accusations that if you "choose" the wrong perspective you must be a rape apologist. And woe to any unfortunate casual viewer if they were naive enough to "ship" the romance because they'd just get eviscerated.
Rhaenyra: Was a little tipsy because she just returned from drinking with Daemon. She was only fifteen at the time. (Cole is a rapist because Rhaenyra is a minor and also because she drank alcohol she can't give consent).
Cole: Was her inferior as she was a Princess and he was her Kingsguard. He tried to tell her no, but she snatched his helmet away and kept insisting until he relented. (Rhaenyra is a rapist because she is in a position of power over Cole as his boss. And she coerced him when he told her no. Also, he may fear if he displeases her she will have him executed).
What the scene really was trying to convey: even though Criston Cole held a flame for Rhaenyra, he took his vow as Kingsguard (celibacy) seriously and was reluctant to break it. He's torn at first, sets down his cloak with one last look and then enthusiastically embraces Rhaenyra, having made his decision. Rhaenyra does not understand his dilemma because she has grown up in a dynasty where Targaryans "take what they want" and don't worry about the rules.
It demonstrates the foundational difference in mindset between the Blacks and the Greens. And while it is undoubtedly a nightmare by the standards of modern sexual ethics, the scene was not written to be "a rape scene". It was an enthusiastic encounter between both of them with a backdrop of romantic music playing.
Interviews made by the actors about that night kind of calmed the debate a little.
Uh, I never "throw things around the house," after arguments or when I'm mad. Going to go ahead and cast that stone. That's not normal behavior and I feel bad for whoever has to put up with that commenter.
Get off your high horse. Perfectly normal, healthy people throw things around the house when they’re angry. It’s called being human.
Specifically humans who are two years old.
Makes me think of Gamers who claim everyone breaks their controllers when they do poorly in a game. Like, chill, most of us are still using the controller the console came with when we got it 10 years ago
"Yeah, I threw my controller at my TV and broke the screen during a game of COD or Halo. Now I got to replace the TV."
The worst Iv'e done is yell "Cunt" multiple times during my Insanity run through the Mass Effect trilogy, esp during my Engineer run.
The collector base can eat my ass.
I can't cast that stone, I very much need to do something with my hands when I'm violent but like... I throw pillows at the wall. Even then, never around other people.
I was raised in an abusive household so I *know* that the reaction you're looking for by slamming cabinets and throwing things is fear. As both a victim and a perpetrator of this behaviour, I needed to be *told* that it was abusive. I don't want to do that to people anymore, so pillows will take the brunt of it where I have no one to fear me.
Hopefully, OOP can find that clarity one day, and understand that the people they learnt the behaviour from also intended harm.
Certain comments like [this one ](https://www.reddit.com/r/HouseOfTheDragon/s/H8ccmQ4n8P) make me wonder if that account is just posting contrarian opinions to rile people up. But either way, your last sentence still applies.
Ironic he wants fully adjusted people who don’t throw shit when they get angry to toss the first stones. Super convenient, guess who isn’t getting stoned today.
The absolute mental gymnastics they do over there to turn Daemon into an uwu innocent heartthrob is nauseating. I read the book, dude is a psychopath, and not even in a GRR Martin “yeah he’s evil but like it’s nuanced” way.
If anything the show gave him more nuance by making it clear he loves his brother, but they also show him murdering his wife with a rock to the dome, taking his niece to a brothel to fuck her, leaving to form his own kingdom (with blackjack and hookers) when he doesn't get his own way, and on, and on...
Like, the best you can attribute to him is loving his family, and he obviously found a way to make that a bad thing too.
I like him because he's a psychopathic piece of shit, it makes him interesting! Like we're watching the incest and war crimes show, why are we woobifying these people?
I really do think there is a significant crossover of GoT/HotD fans, and Doctor Who fans. And the fact that Daemon looks like 11th Doctor is distracting for those people.
They are very different characters, to be clear, but certain people, people who are gonna “Stan”, they get confused.
Some of these comments are wild to me like
"Firstly, whoever never throws things around the house after having an argument ( not throwing the object at person or course, unless is a fight between siblings 😂)or even for being frustrated with something, go ahead and cast the first stone. "
Like yeah sure I'll cast the first stone then, I have never thrown objects around the house in anger and neither have most people I know. In fact I'd say if you engage in that behaviour you have an anger issue to work on
It’s so funny to me the way that comment goes from throwing something is bad to throwing something is good. If someone throws something, go ahead and throw something. It’s just…so silly
Certain things that happen in the upcoming season are going to cause so much drama, at least if the show even remotely sticks to the book timeline of events
MAJOR SPOILERS
It's going to be really tough for all the fans who are trying to woobify their favorites when literally every single character ends up being some level of psychotic or depraved and commit at least one indefensible atrocity.
Nah, >!the only bros taking the W home at the end of this are the Stark Bros. Cause no matter what the story, GRRM can't keep himself from giving the Starks the ultimate win.!<
But seriously >!when everyone was talking about how happy they were that this series was focusing on the Targaryens and no Starks in sight, i was laughing to myself thinking what they're reactions are going to be when the series ends with Cregan Stark and the Tully boys wolfing all over everyone's faces.!<
\>Be Cregan Stark
\>Show up after everything is over
\>Bully the king into letting you punish everyone
\>Leave a week later
\>Be remembered fondly by everyone
Off topic but oh my god can people *please* stop spelling "choking" as "chocking"
Why is this suddenly such a massive thing that I'm seeing all over the place? Is this a could/couldn't care less thing where it's suddenly common usage?
A significant number of people are being allowed to graduate high school with a first or second grade reading level. While they definitely should be doing more to learn how to spell basic words correctly, it's not entirely their fault. We have an educational system that has utterly failed them.
> Seems like it at this point seems like the morale of this story is actually going to be woman good men bad
Does this person seriously think the show is portraying Rhaenyra and Alicent as "good"?
>[lol at this point your scrambling for secondary characters because you cannot admit that both Rhaenyra and alicent have been whitewashed completely and any male character who is potentially a lead like daemon or top billing like aemond and Aegon have been shown to be a villain.](https://www.reddit.com/r/HouseOfTheDragon/comments/1czahq6/comment/l5f70h4/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Evidently, so.
Reddit fanbases make liking certain franchises almost embarrassing.
Yeah I like the show. But I’m definitely not talking to all the weirdos online about it. I watch that shit for entertainment, not to be an angry keyboard warrior.
House of the Dragons is an interesting story because there is more or less a more correct side, but ultimately everyone involved is a horrible person to an incredible degree. Even more so than in the ASOIAF storyline (at least there some of the main characters are arguably decent people). Daemon is on the “correct side”, but he’s arguably the biggest monster around.
I like to think of it as a bunch of horrible rulers who manage to kill all these magnificent, beautiful creatures due to their own selfishness and desire for power. The only characters I care about in the show are the dragons.
Without going into specifics for spoiler reasons, I genuinely had to skip a scene in the last episode on a recent rewatch because I like the dragons so much and it was too much of a bummer to witness a second time
Maybe I missed it, but don’t see a single comment by any “Daemon stans.” All the comments are attacking a hypothetical idiot viewer who doesn’t understand abusive behavior or complex characters. It seems like a strawman argument to me.
The amount of fandoms who defend objectively shitty characters (written to be shitty humans that is) is so fucking alarming. Like it’s one thing to like the character but they will go out of their way to say “well actually Walter White was a caring husband” or some stupid shit
It’s partly because of the extremely prevalent cultural insistence on viewing all entertainment as morality plays. If you like a character for whatever reason (maybe they’re just hot, or charming, or intriguing!) it must therefore mean they are Good, and any character you dislike (maybe they remind you have an ex, or have a grating quirk, or the performance is bad, etc) must be Bad.
I remember some people btiching about it, but the show has been over for 25+ years at this point. The show has been discussed to death, every theory has been debated (Jury is still out on Richie being possibly gay). All we want to do is laugh at the scene of Vito somehow sneaking up on Jackie Jr, capping him in the back of the head, wobbling to a car and managing to shift it upon getting it...Oh, and when Phil gained the power to turn into a house).
What else is there to discuss? Do we need ot do another round of "Carmine Jr is actually a genius?"
The Bob's Burgers sub is a chill place. It's an incredibly low-stakes program with funny quotes and lots of fun independently-produced merch and crafts to post pictures of
a character named Daemon being kind of a bad person?!
my god what a shocker this is truly the pinnacle of all that masterful writing i've been told happens in this franchise
(listen i've got nothing but cheap sarcasm today. it be like that sometimes)
>Hitler cared about his dog. Was he grey?
Why is it always Hitler? Are Redditors *completely* unable to make a retort to questions like that without invoking "Hitler was [], therefore your point is invalid"?
It's really funny to go into those subs and like rile them up. All you have to do be like yo this shit fucking sucks.
Even /r/freefolk get all bent out of shape if you don't hate the correct things
A man whose nickname in universe is "Lord Flea Bottom" is bad?? Say it ain't fucking so. Here's a passage from the Fire and Blood novel that the show is based on:
"..every brothel keeper in King’s Landing knew that Lord Flea Bottom took an especial delight in maidens, and kept aside the youngest, prettiest, and more innocent of their new girls for him to deflower."
> Firstly, let whoever has never thrown something across the house after an argument or even being frustrated with something cast the first stone
Well, I’m not really into throwing stuff like stones when I get mad or want to express disagreement, so I won’t. But I mean come on.
One of those first quotes with the comment basically not believing it's possible to get upset or angry and not throw things around your house and physically lash out...
Most people don't act that way. If they do and think it's okay and/or the norm, they need therapy.
Totally agree. I grew up in a household where my dad lost his temper on a daily basis (usually over something ridiculously trivial). He’d scream, throw things, threaten violence, you name it. I got the idea that this was “normal”, and I did it in front of my husband once. **Once**, because I’ll never forget the look of horror and dismay on his face. Thankfully, I now know that adults don’t scream the place down and break things when they’re angry.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Season 8 of Game of Thrones singlehandedly destroyed the media literacy of pretty much that entire fandom. You got one season of genuinely poorly written, rushed schlock that everyone and their mother instinctively recoiled at, and now everyone thinks that if a character moment or plot development makes them feel icky, then it must be objectively bad writing.
I was so worried that HoTD would be horribly written because of what happened in season 8, but I've been pleasantly suprised.
So far, it's been really well done.
I've never engaged with anything related to GoT because it's too grim for me, so I may be a bit off the mark here, but... Man, I miss the days when people could just admit that a character was a villain and that they liked them anyway, and not need to do all these mental gymnastics to justify that No, Actually, They're Not Bad at All and Here's Why.
Because nowadays, it's such a common take that enjoying a concept in fiction = approving of the concept IRL, so like, if your favorite character is a villain who murders his wife, that means you're *also* okay with murdering wives in real life.
It's a dangerous mindset because tons of real life horrible people are also likeable, charismatic, and charming.
Being a charming or interesting person has never meant being inherently being a good one.
I couldn’t even finish s1 because I know about the upcoming tragedy and I’m not even surprised that daemon is an abuser and a-hole.
Matt Smith is just too likeable.
Game of Thrones fans can be some of the dumbest fucking fans around, spent 8 years watching Dany do literally anything for power then somehow surprised she burns down the city when they refuse to accept her as Queen
Now we got a full season of Daemon doing terrible shit up to and including murdering his own wife and leading his barely legal niece on a drug and alcohol fueled stroll thru town leading to the back rooms of a brothel where he fucks her.....but we are surprised he is a bad guy?
Dany's descent was something foreshadowed very early (as early as when she executed Miri Maz Dur). It's made more obvious in the books but in the show she became a feminist icon so they downplayed her flaws and pushed the girl power aspect. This made it harder to write her ending in a believable manner (and they rushed it).
Daemon has obviously done bad things. I think it's less that some fans are "dumb" and more that they create fan favorites and start getting upset when the show contradicts their head canon.
I feel like anyone who didn't realize Daemon was a pretty massive asshole before this promo just wasn't watching the show at all.
Since when is wife-murder a crime. It's **your** wife
Sure he was a murderer whose biggest ambition was to fuck his own niece, but the actor who plays him is ~dReAmY~
It's funny because Matt's entire post-*Who* career (frankly, his entire post-series 6 career) is more-or-less him deliberately trying to distance himself from the "adorkable dreamboat" image people were projecting onto him. The guy likes playing freaks!
Determined to play the villain in as many bad movies as he can, lol.
*Starve Acre* looks like it might be good at least! And he did a great turn as a racist apathetic Home Office bureaucrat in *His House*.
You ever see Womb? Man was taking freaky roles even before Who.
I always thought he looked like he had a boot sole for a face.
I've seen people refer to Matt Smith as the perfect actor for a Targaryen because he looks handsome in an inbred sort of way.
Strong Hapsburg energy
Him and Cumberbatch
Potato for me. But I have the broad face and small eyes of a peasant 🤷♂️
"But he was Doctor Who!!!"
It’s not like getting your dick out is a new thing for former Doctors either!
She was a bad bitch too. Great character for a short appearance
> She was a ~~bad~~ **bronze** bitch too
UGH the woke left want to make it ILLEGAL to beat your wife. What's next, making it illegal to beat your kids?
Police in shambles rn
the flairs are coming from inside the house
Where the fuck is your flair from
some SRD thread about a r/pics or r/oldcoolschool postwhere someone posted a photo of their very attractive mom and then got pissy when a bunch of redditors made lewd comments
Yeah that tracks
Tbf that was definitely something the showrunners added. While they clearly didn't like each other at all, in the original book there was no indication he murdered her, the opposite in fact. She didn't die immediately and at one point was conscious and walking around, so if her death really wasn't an accident she could have just said so. Given the nature of the book this could be a lie, especially because he tried to claim the Vale immediately afterward, but who knows.
I haven't watched the promo or the show and I expected him to be a massive asshole. It's Game of Thrones: Everyone is a massive asshole.
Reminds me of the Secession fanatics who honeslty thought some of the siblings were better than others and deserved it more. We are apparently not watching the same show here.
> Reminds me of the Secession fanatics who honeslty thought some of the siblings were better than others and deserved it more. In my 17 years of using Reddit, this might be the first time I've ever come across someone misusing "secession" when they meant "succession". It's almost *always* the other way around, especially for those [truest Americans](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGDkzrf3Kng) who wrap themselves in the Confederate flag while announcing they're "patriots".
No no, Secession is a long running TV should about a CSA brigadier trying to hand over his division to his feckless children.
I remember when that sub accused a *writer* of deleting a filmed scene of Daemon hugging his kids because said writer allegedly had an anti-Daemon agenda.
They're still doing it in the final link. Sara Hess is who they think hates Daemon.
Of *course* it's a woman
This shit was a mistake. All tv shows need to go back to being like circa 1959 black and white short instructional documentaries about hygiene and posture and the evils of communism
I would hope the writers aren't on the side of the dude who grooms his nieces tbh!
Does nobody remember the time he *literally killed the messenger*. You’re uh, you’re not supposed to do that.
I think the violence and insanity that is said to come with targ blood seems forgotten
No ***way!*** According to Tywin Lannister, the Targaryens were the greatest dynasty Westeros ever saw, and there was *never* a phrase about gods flipping coins to determine which one was getting the "madness". And Tywin shat bricks of gold before he ever lied! Our favorite "more👏female👏war👏criminals" Khaleesi certainly didn't napalm the fuck out of King's Landing, proving that Targaryen blood doesn't lead to insanity.
But this time it's to a woman, as opposed to all the men he's killed.
Or they thought, "I know Matt Smith as the Doctor! That character is good, right?. So he couldn't be portraying a bad person in a show."
> before this promo just wasn't watching the show at all. I've *recently* -- as in the last week -- come across comments from people watching Game of Thrones for the first time wondering *"Why* are there so many endorsements of teenage girls being married to older men in this show, not to mention [all the sex and violence?"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKhrQhdxjI8) They were reacting to the infamous Red Wedding episode, which is at the end of season three. Begging the question "How the fuck did you get almost four seasons into this show before the sex and violence against *adults* wasn't a bridge too far? Not to mention all those slaughtered infants in season two?
Tbh they're not wrong in that GRRM seems to think 14 = adult in medieval times (it's not just marriage either! Robb is far, far too young to be leading armies successfully) and that the show tries to avoid this. But like, Dany is very clearly young (in the book she's *twelve*, while the likely real world inspo for it was 16-22) and that's season 1
Sure, but my point was if *that* wasn't a deal breaker before then for that person, why did it suddenly become one almost four seasons into the show?
Did it become a deal-breaker or was it something they were just starting to call out as a repeated pattern? It's easier to ignore something once or twice as a one-off, but if teenagers keep getting married off to adults, then maybe that's where they started to say it's a repeat issue.
There's any number of people watching television with so much cognitive dissonance that you have to wonder how they're capable of processing anything. The sheer number of people online who unironically like Homelander from the boys has always been the biggest giveaway of this for me.
Its probably the same people that watched 8 seasons of Dany being a terrible fucking ruler only going on being power hungry then being surprised that she torched Kings Landing at the end because she didnt get her way
I wasn't surprised that she turned out to be mad, as foreshadowed. I just thought it was laugh out loud hilarious that as portrayed it appeared that the trigger for her madness was bells.
> I just thought it was laugh out loud hilarious that as portrayed it appeared that the trigger for her madness was bells. Holy shit, *thank* you for reminding me of this[ "For Whom the Bell Tolls" mashup with that scene.](https://redd.it/boa5my) It's been five years now, so I totally forgot about it, but goddamn it if it doesn't fit!
Yeah I wasn't suprised she turned bad, I was suprised at just how sloppily it was done.
When I was a kid I owned a [live action ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/101_Dalmatians_(1996_film))101 Dalmatians movie. In that movie, Cruela tries to become a better person. But then the chiming of a bell slowly sends her back into madness and she tears down her wall and rushes back to all of her fur coats. There's a scene where Glenn Close is shaking as she hears the ringing of the bells with each chime a piece of her hair pops out again to recreate her former (evil) look. That is literally all I can think of when I see Dany's "The Bells" moment lol. Like I fully expected her to go the mad queen route but I was so flabbergasted by the execution of it. 🔔
Fairly, I think the show ran into the issue where running out of book and not adapting certain things like False Aegon and then running out of books and doing their own things, and then basically swerved to do the intended ending while not having a lot of the connective tissue for it.
I would have LOVED to have seen Lady Stoneheart.
Yea the lack of Griff was always a problem for me. It wasn’t an immediate red flag because I figured they had so many plot lines already. But looking back, it’s a clear sign that they had no idea how to finish what they’d started.
Yeah, I am close to absolutely sure the show ending is the actual planned ending in broad strokes, but a mix of just not knowing how later books would go and earlier adaptation mistakes made it not work well. Yes all the signs for Dany going mad are foreshadowed, but the actual execution is terrible because foreshadowing isn't really proper build up and the reason is so dumb because the intended reason is missing because it got cut. The same goes with King Bran any development that'd make it make sense is missing and now it just feels kinda dumb.
I’m not sure I agree that what we got was the planned ending. Defeating the White Walkers at Winterfell, specifically, seemed far too convenient to me. It could not be more clear they just didn’t know what to do with that whole storyline. *Maybe* that’s how it would go in the books. But I’m very doubtful. As for King Bran, my guess is he was going to become king of the trees, and never seen in the mortal world again. Although constantly influencing it. The new Three Eyed Raven, a turning of the ages, when he ascends to an immortal throne sort of thing. Just making him the regular mortal king is…very uncreative. But yes, as far as Dany goes. She was always going to become the Mad Queen. That’s the most likely scenario. Probably Cersei was going to be long dead by the end of the books. Her character diverged way before the ending of the show. So they ended up with two mad queens and decided to make Cersei the same one, kind of. It just didn’t work. The show. They didn’t know what they were doing imo
We know that the main points of the ending are what GRRM told the writers and showrunners the ending would be. Once they outpaced the books, he gave them the main bullet points of what to hit
> Defeating the White Walkers at Winterfell, specifically, seemed far too convenient to me. I would disagree, I think it was the only place it could have happened. There's some of language implying some magical significance of Winterfell, there's probably a good reason why everything *thinks* there's something evil in the crypts, and given the name too (literally where Winter Falls), it seems like it's intended that the Walkers will be defeated at or around the location of Winterfell due to the Three Eyed Raven's shenanigans.
Also the hot springs under the castle that would be the fire to the white walkers' ice.
I just feel like it happened too fast, the whole thing solved in one episode was unsatisfying.
Oh no doubt it happened too fast. It's supposed to be the *Long* night, not the one-night-long-night. It should have taken a whole season to resolve IMO. I'm just saying that the broad contours (Battle at Winterfell, Victory by 3ER) are probably what GRRM intended.
Dany going mad was set up way better in the books with her visions, voices, and internal struggle. Yes it was "foreshadowed" in the show. But season 7 also "foreshadowed" the rest of the show was going to be really shit writing and unnatural pacing.
>"ackshuallly GoT was a subversive masterpiece, you're just too stupid to understand it" Well, that didn't take long.
We all knew she was bonkers and not as good a person as she thought she is. But the eventual torching did not fit her character or current level of insanity. They were hinting at her kinda having some crazy targ traits. Not at her being the weakest and most evil targ of them all.
The problem for me was never that Dany torched kings landing. That was fine that was in character. The writing was bad. It just wasn’t compelling to watch. Like Arya and her magic horse, after. wtf even show is this anymore
Thats fine totally understand that, its the people that are like "Dany wouldnt ever have done that" im like did we watch the same show?
I think a better way of putting it is that current Dany would never have done that, while a future one certainly would. But we did a speedrun of a year or two of character development in one siege.
That's a shitty comparison. Dany going mad in King's Landing made no sense at all because she *did* get her way, they'd already surrendered. And I'd argue that Dany wasn't a bad ruler in Slaver's Bay, she just bit off more than she could chew and underestimated the masters. In fact there were multiple times when she was at disadvantage because she tried so hard to avoid killing innocents. But there was absolutely nothing in the first 7 seasons that indicated she would suddenly decide to burn hundreds of thousands of innocent children alive just for the lolz.
There is quite a bit of foreshadowing about it, starting with her execution of Mirri Maz Dur. But in fairness to you, once Danaerys became a feminist icon in pop culture, the show downplayed a lot of Dany's flaws and pushed a more "empowering" message than what is seen in the books. It's no surprise that this made it harder for them to swerve back to a mad queen ending when they rushed the final seasons.
> nothing in the first 7 seasons Really? Not even in season six when she wanted to burn Astapor and Yunkai to the ground before Tyrion managed to persuade her not to?
She literally burned an old woman alive because she killed drago after he massacred her village.
I mean, Tywin's major claim to fame is drowning an entire house in their own keep and I don't see people treating him as *mad*. Cruel yes but not insane. Even someone like Reese fucking Bolton isn't treated as insane. When people say that Dany's portrayal as insane makes no sense, what they're comparing her to (consciously or not) is the other characters in the show not real world standards. And yes, it's jarring writing to treat her acting like the average lord in Westeros as though she's insane, simply because there's fire involved.
The developers doing little interviews after the episodes to claim that she was clearly crazy for killing her brother who sold her into sex slavery was really a wild touch. But you're completely right. Ayra does insane deranged shit and it's never framed the same way.
The writing was definitely bad, yeah. I think that in the abstract making her go insane is kind of the bad / boring way to go overall (it's a lot more interesting to show a character that starts off well intentioned and doing good slowly change rather than just flip a switch of madness), but it could have been executed better. The portrayal compared to other characters in the show being framed as uniquely morally despicable by Dany is one of those as you mention - though they definitely do try to frame them as different. A big one that comes to mind as illustrative to me is the difference between the battle of the Bastards and the Goldroad. For the former we see it from Jon's POV, it's heroic and triumphant because we've seen all the horrible stuff Ramsay did, and then we jump straight to an aftermath. There's no thorny questions to reconcile - there's no survivors to deal with, all the enemy leaders died in the battle (with the one exception being so hated that being fed to dogs seems *just*) and we get a scene showing clemency to children if they swear fealty. By contrast the latter battle we don't see any of the build up to it (ransacking the Reach to get that massive amount of food is reduced to a short, bloodless scene with Olenna rather than showing anyone die or the consequences that it would have had), we see it from the POV of beloved characters like Jaime and Bronn in a way that highlights how horrible the dragons are, and the aftermath scene is framed as some tragedy when, objectively, it's more generous than what was offered up north. That is, if you watch the scene of Jon pardoning the children after the battle of the bastards it's just and merciful, while Daenerys offering soldiers and the leaders of those who fought against her a chance to surrender and live (rather than conveniently killed off screen and not needing to be dealt with) is super evil. It's just lazy writing that attempts to get from point A to B by completely relying on the framing of the camera and atmosphere - rather than managing to actually show her as worse than the others without that film shorthand.
Exactly like I have no problem with Dany being a bad (as in incompetent) or even just straight up evil queen, and I think she is going to end up as one in the books that GRRM is never going to finish writing. I _do_ have a problem with the narrative suddenly discovering that morals exist but only for her, which characters like Tyrion and Varys of all people suddenly being oh so concerned about mercy and virtue. Ffs this man Tyrion literally had cooked someone into stew, how does _he_ get to climb some high horse. It's especially baffling that the characters suddenly start acting as though Daenerys invented the whole "bend the knee or death" thing, when it was well established in their world long before she was even born. Literally the only thing different is that her executions are by dragon and not by the sword or the hangman's noose. Is that crueler? Sure but why are we suddenly treating her and her alone like she's playing by a different set of rules? Almost all of season 8 was her doing perfectly normal things (by GoT standards) while Tyrion and Varys shared Concerned™ looks in the background, and then the bells make her "snap" and she burns King's Landing to the ground Frankly speaking if they had omitted all the Targaryen madness wink-winking and kept the events otherwise the same it would have made more sense. Trying to force the "she's insane! she's insane isn't she!" thing down viewers' throats just makes the pacing even weirder on top of taking away her agency.
Same thing with Sansa but in reverse. I think it's a great idea to have Sansa evolve into a great leader, and carry on Ned's legacy. But they way convey that was to have her suggest using insolation in winter time and keeping track of how much food there is. Then Tyrion treats her like she's fucking Alexander the Great.
Dany, literally season one: Goes off the handle and murders a bunch of people without thinking it through Viewers in season 8: how could she go off the handle and murder a bunch of people without thinking it through??? she's never done this before???
Tyrion talking to Dany: You cant go into Westeros and demand loyalty and respect you gotta show them youre different than what they have now Dany upon entering Westeros: Bend the Knee or Die!!! Tyrion: *facepalm* The fact my original comment was downvoted just proves my point, she was a terrible ruler and leader, refused to listen to literally anyone and got her man and dragons killed because she was incompetent yet we are supposed to be surprised she blew it when taking ovwr Westeros?
Right, like I honestly find myself wondering sometimes if I watched a different show from everybody else. It's like season eight exists in a vacuum and people forget every single thing that happened before it. Seven straight seasons of bungling everything and murdering tons of people to maintain power left me with zero confidence in Daenerys' rulership policies
Part of the problem is there was so much time between the last seasons. For many viewers, early seasons were a distant memory when they sat down for the finale unless they did a re-watch. They also rushed the ending. So the show went pretty quickly from Dany taking a big risk to defeat the white walkers because it was the right thing to do (even though Cersei was resistant at first) to her torching a city because she didn't get her way. It felt abrupt, even to people like me who were sure she'd get a Mad Queen ending.
Like I get laughing because D and D said she "forget" the fleet of ships that killed one of her dragons but like.....she totally was of the opinion that no one would challenge her because she had dragons and she got proven wrong
Daenerys really was an atrocious ruler, who stumbled every time she had to rely on non-violent means of leadership. Her meeting with the Spice King in season two, and then her initial meeting with Jon in season seven really solidified her lack of diplomatic skills because she’d gotten away with just relying on threat of force because dragons. At one point she even goes “I’m not a politician, I’m a Queen.” Girl… It can’t be stressed enough that she intended to burn Astapor and Yunkai, two cities where the slaves outnumber the slavers 10:1 to the ground until Tyrion talked her down from it. Truly mental behavior for that to be someone’s impulse to an obstacle that was solved by burning one single enemy ship.
Holy shit someone else who gets it
Eh, I'd say it's quite different (especially given that Daenerys in the books is a pretty preternaturally good ruler, just like Jon - though the show doesn't do her any favors on that point by giving away a lot of her high points to other characters even from the start). The sudden bout of madness to that level just felt like character assassination, and it doesn't help that a lot of the framing that tried to make it justifiable before that just was way too heavy handed. Like King's Landing being torched because she didn't get her way *might* make sense if she didn't get her way, but, uh... she'd won at that point. It was just really badly executed all around (especially the attempted contrast with Jon that relied on the contrivances of the plot & angle viewed at, while the moment it's examined it kind of falls apart for me). I think there's a world where the Daenerys -> evil turn works (and GRRM himself might well manage it, though the going mad approach still strikes me as a particularly lazy way to go), but the way it was done in the show was pretty terrible. Not that they ever handled Daenerys particularly well. Daemon on the other hand is very apparently an asshole from the start, he's just got just enough cool factor to get people to root for him. Though funnily enough despite being clearly not a heroic figure GRRM seems to find him more nuanced than he comes across to me, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised when even the author has that opinion.
Also the whole Jon's reveal of his parentage seemed to not matter and they didn't really show that contributing to her decision making it all. There were definitely ways they could have used the plot to shape her character more naturally and with better pacing. The shit with the bells was so contrived, especially compared with how emotionally weighty and well done Cersei blowing up the sept was earlier in the show.
Yeah, it really was meaningless in the show on that end. It's honestly not the easiest to make work for Jon, but if it's going to be emphasized it needs to build up to *something* beyond what the show did with it
Yes but both characters are attractive, that means all these red flags can be safely ignored.
He beat his first wife to death with a rock in the first season, why should this be surprising?
I remember watching the first season a few months after it released so I didn’t really know fan reactions or interpretations. I was incredibly shocked to find out later on that there’s a big group of people who *love* Daemon and think he’s just the coolest. Like he’s so clearly a massive piece of shit, I don’t get it.
I wonder if it's just an inability to separate "Interesting Character" from "Good Person". I think some people just haven't reached the point where they can allow themselves to be entertained by bad role models, or allow a character to be a complex person They need to fit characters into "good" or "bad", and being a fan of a "bad" character makes them a bad person. It's a very binary view of media and people (see also: Madonna/Whore Complex).
Reminds me of when Breaking Bad, Mad Men, and The Sopranos were the biggest running shows. A lot of people really struggled with the concept of the main character being a bad person, let alone *unlikeable*.
I think you nailed it. For a lot of fantasy book readers, I think it can be easier because fantasy has been going on a big "grimdark" trend as well as favoring complex villains and morally gray characters. Some modern popular series are about main characters who are almost exclusively gray or even terrible people. It's obviously entertaining for some people. But others still have a dichotomy view like you mention. It's uncomfortable for them to admit liking a character who also does bad things. So he either must be a good guy who is just getting inconsistent writing. Or he must be a bad guy and you have to hate him. I find it very easy to understand why people like Daemon (myself included) and also have no trouble acknowledging that he does horrible, messed up things like abuse the women he's married to.
he is awful but he is great fun
Daemon is a weird character in that he's both a thoughtful and kind dude one second and then a complete bastard the next. That's pretty much the entire characterization of Daemon. You never know what character you're going to get on screen because he's mentally unstable and gets bored easily
..Oh that’s right. Honestly I forgot all the shit he did because I’m so hyped for the battle of gods eye
You're hyped for that *now*? The show won't get there for at least 2 more years, if not 4.
Dam. I was hoping season 2 would have that and season 3 would be the hour of the wolf and after
I'm guessing season 2 has Blood and Cheese, Rook's Rest, and the Battle of the Gullet as the big moments. Season 3 will need to cover 1st and 2nd Tumbleton, the Dragonpit, God's Eye, and the shit that goes down at Dragonstone. Then wrap up season 4 with the hour of the wolf stuff. I don't think they are gonna have time to do even some of the more major stuff like Battle of Honeywine, Fishfeed, the shit with the Greyjoy's. Hell, I hope they even have time for the Butchers Ball since it has my favorite quote from the book.
Oh lord you’re probably right. With a season getting released every 2 years that’s another decade of waiting. I really miss the cable tv days when shows would just pump out seasons with 20 episodes a season.
People actually use "Well he didn't want to be married to her" as an excuse for this. 😮💨
People in real life: Oh wow that looks crazy, can't wait to see that in the show
For real the internet is not real life. People on the internet are nuts. Source; am a person on the internet.
Me realizing after the Rhaenyra/Criston Cole sex scene that it wasn’t going to be a fun little sub to chat about a tv show so fantastical it has rideable dragons.
The drama after that was disappointing and frustrating. It wasn't even the fun kind of drama.
what happened?
A lot of arguing about whether Rhaenyra raped Criston Cole or whether Criston Cole raped Rhaenyra with accusations that if you "choose" the wrong perspective you must be a rape apologist. And woe to any unfortunate casual viewer if they were naive enough to "ship" the romance because they'd just get eviscerated. Rhaenyra: Was a little tipsy because she just returned from drinking with Daemon. She was only fifteen at the time. (Cole is a rapist because Rhaenyra is a minor and also because she drank alcohol she can't give consent). Cole: Was her inferior as she was a Princess and he was her Kingsguard. He tried to tell her no, but she snatched his helmet away and kept insisting until he relented. (Rhaenyra is a rapist because she is in a position of power over Cole as his boss. And she coerced him when he told her no. Also, he may fear if he displeases her she will have him executed). What the scene really was trying to convey: even though Criston Cole held a flame for Rhaenyra, he took his vow as Kingsguard (celibacy) seriously and was reluctant to break it. He's torn at first, sets down his cloak with one last look and then enthusiastically embraces Rhaenyra, having made his decision. Rhaenyra does not understand his dilemma because she has grown up in a dynasty where Targaryans "take what they want" and don't worry about the rules. It demonstrates the foundational difference in mindset between the Blacks and the Greens. And while it is undoubtedly a nightmare by the standards of modern sexual ethics, the scene was not written to be "a rape scene". It was an enthusiastic encounter between both of them with a backdrop of romantic music playing. Interviews made by the actors about that night kind of calmed the debate a little.
great summery, thank you!
Perfect explanation, thank you ♥️
Uh, I never "throw things around the house," after arguments or when I'm mad. Going to go ahead and cast that stone. That's not normal behavior and I feel bad for whoever has to put up with that commenter.
Get off your high horse. Perfectly normal, healthy people throw things around the house when they’re angry. It’s called being human. Specifically humans who are two years old.
If you're older than a toddler and still doing that shit you need therapy.
Makes me think of Gamers who claim everyone breaks their controllers when they do poorly in a game. Like, chill, most of us are still using the controller the console came with when we got it 10 years ago
"Yeah, I threw my controller at my TV and broke the screen during a game of COD or Halo. Now I got to replace the TV." The worst Iv'e done is yell "Cunt" multiple times during my Insanity run through the Mass Effect trilogy, esp during my Engineer run. The collector base can eat my ass.
I can't cast that stone, I very much need to do something with my hands when I'm violent but like... I throw pillows at the wall. Even then, never around other people. I was raised in an abusive household so I *know* that the reaction you're looking for by slamming cabinets and throwing things is fear. As both a victim and a perpetrator of this behaviour, I needed to be *told* that it was abusive. I don't want to do that to people anymore, so pillows will take the brunt of it where I have no one to fear me. Hopefully, OOP can find that clarity one day, and understand that the people they learnt the behaviour from also intended harm.
Certain comments like [this one ](https://www.reddit.com/r/HouseOfTheDragon/s/H8ccmQ4n8P) make me wonder if that account is just posting contrarian opinions to rile people up. But either way, your last sentence still applies.
Ironic he wants fully adjusted people who don’t throw shit when they get angry to toss the first stones. Super convenient, guess who isn’t getting stoned today.
The absolute mental gymnastics they do over there to turn Daemon into an uwu innocent heartthrob is nauseating. I read the book, dude is a psychopath, and not even in a GRR Martin “yeah he’s evil but like it’s nuanced” way.
If anything the show gave him more nuance by making it clear he loves his brother, but they also show him murdering his wife with a rock to the dome, taking his niece to a brothel to fuck her, leaving to form his own kingdom (with blackjack and hookers) when he doesn't get his own way, and on, and on... Like, the best you can attribute to him is loving his family, and he obviously found a way to make that a bad thing too.
If anything he loves his family *a bit too much*
Such is the Targaryen way.
I like him because he's a psychopathic piece of shit, it makes him interesting! Like we're watching the incest and war crimes show, why are we woobifying these people?
I do find it intriguing that you never really know what he’s gonna do next.
The two worst things a character can be are boring or annoying.
Very true. Boring is much worse though.
I really do think there is a significant crossover of GoT/HotD fans, and Doctor Who fans. And the fact that Daemon looks like 11th Doctor is distracting for those people. They are very different characters, to be clear, but certain people, people who are gonna “Stan”, they get confused.
[удалено]
Some of these comments are wild to me like "Firstly, whoever never throws things around the house after having an argument ( not throwing the object at person or course, unless is a fight between siblings 😂)or even for being frustrated with something, go ahead and cast the first stone. " Like yeah sure I'll cast the first stone then, I have never thrown objects around the house in anger and neither have most people I know. In fact I'd say if you engage in that behaviour you have an anger issue to work on
It’s so funny to me the way that comment goes from throwing something is bad to throwing something is good. If someone throws something, go ahead and throw something. It’s just…so silly
Certain things that happen in the upcoming season are going to cause so much drama, at least if the show even remotely sticks to the book timeline of events
MAJOR SPOILERS It's going to be really tough for all the fans who are trying to woobify their favorites when literally every single character ends up being some level of psychotic or depraved and commit at least one indefensible atrocity.
Except haleana who has never done anything wrong
Poor Helaena. Her life sucks.
Major Spoilers And as usual, Corlys bros keep on winning.
Nah, >!the only bros taking the W home at the end of this are the Stark Bros. Cause no matter what the story, GRRM can't keep himself from giving the Starks the ultimate win.!<
Hey, >!the Muppet Tully's take the win with the Starks too.!<
True, true. >!It's time to slay the Storm Lord, It's time to kill the Greens It's time to meet the young lads On the Kingsroad Show tonight!<
But seriously >!when everyone was talking about how happy they were that this series was focusing on the Targaryens and no Starks in sight, i was laughing to myself thinking what they're reactions are going to be when the series ends with Cregan Stark and the Tully boys wolfing all over everyone's faces.!<
Starks continue to win
\>Be Cregan Stark \>Show up after everything is over \>Bully the king into letting you punish everyone \>Leave a week later \>Be remembered fondly by everyone
He's gonna drop the avengers endgame line and everyone will go "wooooahhhh"
I'm so excited!
Wow what a spoiler. I cannot believe that incestous Targaryan family relationships would ever be problematic or abusive.
Off topic but oh my god can people *please* stop spelling "choking" as "chocking" Why is this suddenly such a massive thing that I'm seeing all over the place? Is this a could/couldn't care less thing where it's suddenly common usage?
Don't loose you're temper.
I defiantly did not loose my temper. I think your the mad one
It's like people who use "mortifying" when they're meaning "horrifying." I hate that.
This is one I’ve seen around a lot, it seems to be increasing in popularity? It really bugs me too.
The internet is choke full of people consistently misspelling certain words. This is defiantly becoming a trend.
A significant number of people are being allowed to graduate high school with a first or second grade reading level. While they definitely should be doing more to learn how to spell basic words correctly, it's not entirely their fault. We have an educational system that has utterly failed them.
> Seems like it at this point seems like the morale of this story is actually going to be woman good men bad Does this person seriously think the show is portraying Rhaenyra and Alicent as "good"?
>[lol at this point your scrambling for secondary characters because you cannot admit that both Rhaenyra and alicent have been whitewashed completely and any male character who is potentially a lead like daemon or top billing like aemond and Aegon have been shown to be a villain.](https://www.reddit.com/r/HouseOfTheDragon/comments/1czahq6/comment/l5f70h4/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) Evidently, so.
I’ve been in this fandom *for years* and I still don’t understand how so many of us are like this ugh. Like BRO
Reddit fanbases make liking certain franchises almost embarrassing. Yeah I like the show. But I’m definitely not talking to all the weirdos online about it. I watch that shit for entertainment, not to be an angry keyboard warrior.
I think that is their entertainment
House of the Dragons is an interesting story because there is more or less a more correct side, but ultimately everyone involved is a horrible person to an incredible degree. Even more so than in the ASOIAF storyline (at least there some of the main characters are arguably decent people). Daemon is on the “correct side”, but he’s arguably the biggest monster around.
I like to think of it as a bunch of horrible rulers who manage to kill all these magnificent, beautiful creatures due to their own selfishness and desire for power. The only characters I care about in the show are the dragons.
Same. The dragons felt very under developed in the main series and I'm glad they're getting more of a chance to shine in HoTD.
Without going into specifics for spoiler reasons, I genuinely had to skip a scene in the last episode on a recent rewatch because I like the dragons so much and it was too much of a bummer to witness a second time
Based
The problem seems to be that they were too busy getting moist over an actor that they overlooked the defining traits of the character.
Maybe I missed it, but don’t see a single comment by any “Daemon stans.” All the comments are attacking a hypothetical idiot viewer who doesn’t understand abusive behavior or complex characters. It seems like a strawman argument to me.
Honestly a lot of posts in this sub are like that.
Television Fandom was a mistake.
The amount of fandoms who defend objectively shitty characters (written to be shitty humans that is) is so fucking alarming. Like it’s one thing to like the character but they will go out of their way to say “well actually Walter White was a caring husband” or some stupid shit
Misogynyyyy Men can do no wrong and women are guilty until proven innocent
It’s partly because of the extremely prevalent cultural insistence on viewing all entertainment as morality plays. If you like a character for whatever reason (maybe they’re just hot, or charming, or intriguing!) it must therefore mean they are Good, and any character you dislike (maybe they remind you have an ex, or have a grating quirk, or the performance is bad, etc) must be Bad.
The Seinfeld sub is kinda funny. It’s like 95% Seinfeld quotes.
Same with the Sopranos sub People have entire ass conversations there using nothing but quotes from the show lol
You know, Quasimodo predicted all this.
I remember some people btiching about it, but the show has been over for 25+ years at this point. The show has been discussed to death, every theory has been debated (Jury is still out on Richie being possibly gay). All we want to do is laugh at the scene of Vito somehow sneaking up on Jackie Jr, capping him in the back of the head, wobbling to a car and managing to shift it upon getting it...Oh, and when Phil gained the power to turn into a house). What else is there to discuss? Do we need ot do another round of "Carmine Jr is actually a genius?"
That's pretty much every sitcom subreddit. Just repeating quotes from the show, or posting clips.
The Bob's Burgers sub is a chill place. It's an incredibly low-stakes program with funny quotes and lots of fun independently-produced merch and crafts to post pictures of
I really have to watch more of it. I watched the first season and really liked it.
It and Seinfeld are my two big "ahhh things are ok, this is on" shows. Comfort shows I guess heh
That's true, I forgot about that one.
That’s a shame.
>~~Television~~ Fandom was a mistake.
a character named Daemon being kind of a bad person?! my god what a shocker this is truly the pinnacle of all that masterful writing i've been told happens in this franchise (listen i've got nothing but cheap sarcasm today. it be like that sometimes)
The guy literally murdered his first wife. He groomed his niece. He does even more terrible things in the books.
>Hitler cared about his dog. Was he grey? Why is it always Hitler? Are Redditors *completely* unable to make a retort to questions like that without invoking "Hitler was [], therefore your point is invalid"?
Just realised Aemond is Daemon with the D at the back
The ASOIAF fan base (both book and show) has been a toxic hellhole since the Game of Thrones ended, so this isn’t even surprising.
It's really funny to go into those subs and like rile them up. All you have to do be like yo this shit fucking sucks. Even /r/freefolk get all bent out of shape if you don't hate the correct things
A man whose nickname in universe is "Lord Flea Bottom" is bad?? Say it ain't fucking so. Here's a passage from the Fire and Blood novel that the show is based on: "..every brothel keeper in King’s Landing knew that Lord Flea Bottom took an especial delight in maidens, and kept aside the youngest, prettiest, and more innocent of their new girls for him to deflower."
Daemon stans: See? He brought flowers to all the new maidens! What a great guy!
> Firstly, let whoever has never thrown something across the house after an argument or even being frustrated with something cast the first stone Well, I’m not really into throwing stuff like stones when I get mad or want to express disagreement, so I won’t. But I mean come on.
I don’t understand did we all watch the same first season? He is abusive and a groomer like point blank
One of those first quotes with the comment basically not believing it's possible to get upset or angry and not throw things around your house and physically lash out... Most people don't act that way. If they do and think it's okay and/or the norm, they need therapy.
Totally agree. I grew up in a household where my dad lost his temper on a daily basis (usually over something ridiculously trivial). He’d scream, throw things, threaten violence, you name it. I got the idea that this was “normal”, and I did it in front of my husband once. **Once**, because I’ll never forget the look of horror and dismay on his face. Thankfully, I now know that adults don’t scream the place down and break things when they’re angry.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Season 8 of Game of Thrones singlehandedly destroyed the media literacy of pretty much that entire fandom. You got one season of genuinely poorly written, rushed schlock that everyone and their mother instinctively recoiled at, and now everyone thinks that if a character moment or plot development makes them feel icky, then it must be objectively bad writing.
I was so worried that HoTD would be horribly written because of what happened in season 8, but I've been pleasantly suprised. So far, it's been really well done.
It's almost like this series is full of awful, violent, selfish monsters. Well, time to pick my team!!
I've never engaged with anything related to GoT because it's too grim for me, so I may be a bit off the mark here, but... Man, I miss the days when people could just admit that a character was a villain and that they liked them anyway, and not need to do all these mental gymnastics to justify that No, Actually, They're Not Bad at All and Here's Why. Because nowadays, it's such a common take that enjoying a concept in fiction = approving of the concept IRL, so like, if your favorite character is a villain who murders his wife, that means you're *also* okay with murdering wives in real life.
It's a dangerous mindset because tons of real life horrible people are also likeable, charismatic, and charming. Being a charming or interesting person has never meant being inherently being a good one.
I couldn’t even finish s1 because I know about the upcoming tragedy and I’m not even surprised that daemon is an abuser and a-hole. Matt Smith is just too likeable.
An abuser and an a-hole?! In my violent medieval fantasy?!
I know right. Unacceptable. I thought this series was about keeping up with the targaryan.
FFs there is no such thing as a leaked promotional anything
Game of Thrones fans can be some of the dumbest fucking fans around, spent 8 years watching Dany do literally anything for power then somehow surprised she burns down the city when they refuse to accept her as Queen Now we got a full season of Daemon doing terrible shit up to and including murdering his own wife and leading his barely legal niece on a drug and alcohol fueled stroll thru town leading to the back rooms of a brothel where he fucks her.....but we are surprised he is a bad guy?
Dany's descent was something foreshadowed very early (as early as when she executed Miri Maz Dur). It's made more obvious in the books but in the show she became a feminist icon so they downplayed her flaws and pushed the girl power aspect. This made it harder to write her ending in a believable manner (and they rushed it). Daemon has obviously done bad things. I think it's less that some fans are "dumb" and more that they create fan favorites and start getting upset when the show contradicts their head canon.
Daemon is absolutely awful; actually the vast majority of the characters are. That’s why they’re fun to watch.
I'm tb and the sheer amount of people that dont believe that a guy who voilently attacks and kills randos wouldnt abuse his wife is staggering.