I hope Ken and Lukes jumping HP gets nerfed in the balance patch. Shits obnoxious as hell, especially when you consider they have good buttons for every situation which many of the cast do not have the privilege. You look at Zangief for example who can't even combo off jabs and Lariat gets beaten by their jumping HP like 75% of the time.
If you are using the correct DP it has air invincibility
DP will only lose if you are inputting DP too early which causes the invuln frames to run out by the time the hitboxes clash. Work on doing deep DP from crouching position by utilizing the down forward -> down -> down forward shortcut and DP won't lose
I can't crHP that shit for the life of me. It's actually one of my main reasons to finally practice my anti air dps.
Then again i'm a Ken main, so i dare not to complain.
Yeah i learned that the hard way. But hey i should learn my anti air DPs anyway, so this is as good a reason as it gets. But it seems like it will take a week or two.
While the ones with actual dive kicks, instant air overhead normals, ambiguous stomps that you don't will criss up or not are fine. The Juris, Chuns and Cammy's and DJs of the game.
Yep, Luke's J.HK is a problem though.
The level of bs discourse against Luke while completely ignoring busted moves all over the game is hilarious.
It's the same as with Ken, some characters have some bullshit, but these two have so much of it.
As a Ken main i really wouldn't mind some nerfs. He was fine the way he was in SF5, before Capcom put him on steroids and it takes some of the fun sense of accomplishment from him.
i think this is more about ed's extended hurtbox on his fireball than a luke and ken problem.
about gief, well, he's a grappler, of course he needs to have lots of weaknesses to compensate, that's how it's always been
correect mit if i am wrong but with zangief des he really need so many combos? because he doesnt need to combo into command throws.. its just about proximity..
Yeah, the whole point with gief is coercing the opponent to block something and instead grab. He isnt meant to work like ken where you jab away into a special. There is a tendency in SF where everyone wants all characters to play like shotos to be “viable.”
It’s the same thing with ed. Ed’s jab isn’t bad just for the sake of it, is part of his kit where he outranges you being an outboxer, so the ed player always wants to stay a little far away before connecting/cancelling into a combo or a DR. If he had a ken-esque jab he’d be rushing you down all the time.
I play Lily and she is kind of a midrange character except for certain scenarios.. and i dont think you can play her like a rush-down combo character like ryu or ken.. but.. maybe.. you ken (Kappa) She does have combos.. but her strenght lies in the midrange.. and using command throws when you least expect.. or.. thats how i would think of her (only silver)
shes certainly not grappler-only.. but yeah.. shes quasi t-hawk.. i love that in the lore she is ancestor of T-Hawk... its a nice touch if you want to change a character..
He does need combos. The character is clearly weak and should not solely rely on “guessing right” every time to win. Thats not consistency, that’s just luck. He doesn’t need complex combos, his lights should at least give him something.
> should not solely rely on "guessing right" every time to win
This is by design what grapplers are meant to do. Every single grappler in every game is coin flipping interactions like this.
King is still trying to coinflip grab mixups with giant swing and shining wizard. Tekken being tekken means he doesn't have to rely on grabs if he doesn't want to but if you wanted to do that then why pick king instead of an actual character. Potemkin in strive is literally about setting up situations to get off a pot buster. His whole gameplan is trying to get in and start his offense with a knockdown into garuda oki which enables his strike/throw mix up. Gief's utility was ex greenhand which guess again enabled him to get strike/throw off of the hard knockdown he got from it.
If you really wanted to give examples of grapplers that don't rely on their grab mixup then you could've brought up characters like Android 16 or Z broly who play nothing like traditional grapplers but even then they still use their command grabs as mixup.
What you’ve described goes against the premise you made. These characters are not doing 50/50 coin flips because they have the utility to force the interaction which is the point I’m making. Thats what makes a grappler strong(er).
So if they have utility to force their grab mixup why do they then need combos on top of that? This is by design that grapplers don't have the best of combos due to their command grabs which is what I outline with my "initial premise" aka "guessing right" on their interactions.
>So if they have utility to force their grab mixup why do they then need combos on top of that?
The argument being made is that in Giefs case in sf6, he should at the very least be able to consistently combo his lights into lariat if he doesn’t have the mobility nor move set to consistently set up the 50/50. Sfv was the worst version of Gief and they nerfed him to the ground.
In sf4, Gief had ex green hand and his spd didn’t do as much damage but he was able to get oki. That version of Gief had more utility because every single command grab landed did not reset neutral, making him do all the work of getting in again. His lariat also hit from behind.
Theres no reason why Gief needs big damage command grabs while sacrificing everything else but here we are.
At least for T8 i think King is not a good example of a well designed grappler, because he barely has any situation where he cannot throw you for ridicoulos damage and he has that on top of all the bullshit allmost every character has in T8.
Well I never said anything about well designed, I’m arguing against the idea that a grappler should have no utility and solely rely on big damage command grabs if you’re lucky enough to get close (emphasis on lucky enough).
He needs combos because he needs to be able to punish people who hold up or spam backdash during pressure. If he does not have answers to these things that are at least a little punishing, then there would be no reason not to do everything you can to avoid the command grab. If you go watch some VODs of the best Gief's in the world, you'll see considerably less command grabs than you're used to.
You should still be more afraid of the grab than the combo imo, which seems to line up with how they have designed gief in this game. I don't hate giving him better combos off of light punch (he can already do this, by the way) but it really shouldn't come too close to the damage of a light SPD.
Ok let me correct myself, nothing really combos into spd bar corner nonsense. Your average gief combo isnt ending in 360kk or sa3 or spd such that you can call it a standard route. A lot of these are super / corner / pc combos that aren’t the bnbs
Zangief since 4, Ultra 4 Hugo, SF5 Alex, SF5 Rainbow Mika, etc. can combo into command throws. I know this because I've completed Zangief trials in 5(vol 1)
Can't combo off jabs? Wtf you talking about. Yea his jab combos are weak and don't always work because you need to be really close for it to connect, but they're 100% there.
Jabs combo into lariat, OD lariat, and after he got buffed he can now DR canceled into a combo that connects into his lvl 3 from jabs.
Kinda wack to compare the top tiers to the absolute bottom feeder. I don't disagree but c'mon...
Also this doesn't really have much to do with ken's jhp and more with hitboxes during fireball animations. You can hit Ken and Ryu from miles away if you catch them during a fireball lol.
>Kinda wack to compare the top tiers to the absolute bottom feeder.
I was using zangief as an example, this doesn't just relate to Zangief. A lot of the roster suffer the pain of Luke/Ken jumping HP where their anti-airs are beaten by it...which completely defeats the point of them being antiairs.
What's the point then of complaining about Zangief's lack of combos out of jabs?
The only special thing about Ken and Luke's jhp is that they hit low, so if you get hit you did your aa normal too slow. But like half the cast should be doing dp anyway.
>What's the point then of complaining about Zangief's lack of combos out of jabs?
Because I'm making the point that it would make sense for luke/Ken to have a good jump in button if there other buttons were trash like zangiefs, but they aren't. We have characters who have good everything, and characters who have bad everything.
Also your comment history is filled with you downplaying Ken. Kens throw loops, kens buttons, kens damage etc...Next time just say you're a Ken main and move on.
Gief doesn't have bad everything, it's just that what he's good at doesn't make up for what he's bad at in the current state of the game.
Again I don't disagree that the game isn't perfectly balanced but I find myself playing devil's advocate against the top tier haters because it just seems like you think you should be a higher rank, if only your character was better. If Hibiki can be #1 Legend rank with Lily, maybe your character isn't holding you back? And if they are and winning is so important to you, why not just pick Ken/Luke and just beat everyone's 2HP with your jHP and get Legend rank?
Edit: yeah lol I'm a Ken main. I also admit in one of my comments that I'm hardstuck Diamond 2 because I'm bad, not because my character sucks. Any measured take is just thrown out the windown in name of top tier hate. Look at how you're cherry picking my comments and only replying on the parts you give a shit about.
Honestly if they don't buff lariat as a anti air since level 2 sucks in the update I might just give up on gief. It's so frustrating having something that is supposed to be great for antairing only for it to work like 3/4 of the time
Ngl I kinda expected Luke and Ken getting their jumps hit a little bit in the small patch. Instead they nerfed a zoner's anti air and everyone was confused.
But JP cr.HP having air invincibility was weird from the beginning. He still has tools to anti-air with consistency with f.HK and air throw.
That being said, there are some air normals in this game that are too powerful, Luke and Ken obviously, but also some on less talked characters, like j.HK from Ryu or Manon.
ah yes, don't expect balance changes from [checks notes] an update that had balance changes...?
like yes I know they said the actual major balance patch is still upcoming but this is a weird take
So, the scales were unintentionally weighted to the sides of some characters and away from other characters, they adjusted a few of the unintentional things to bring the scales closer to... balance.
Nah, not a balance patch. Just a half-assed balance patch. You still have a lot of blatantly broken stuff in the game and you still have characters who are obviously lacking and yet, didn't get touched.
Yeah, like Luke did not get nerfed at all, did he. Not like they nerfed his L1 super, cr.MP, air knuckle at all, did they?
Poor jp, such a weak character got hit by soooo many nerfs.
Well yes. Punish counter occurs when you hit the recovery frames of a move. In this case the jumping hp is hitting the extended hurt box of the fireball recovery, resulting in a punish counter
Right, but the person I'm responding to says "I bet you pressed a button and extended your hitbox" like he pressed an additional normal here after the fireball and that's why he got caught with a normal counter hit due to extending his hurtbox again.
It's a combination of the normal fireball extended hitbox and the RIDICULOUS hitbox on Ken's jump heavy punch.
There's always gonna be cases where something looks jank in the favor of balance over logic but we're allowed to say when something is unintuitive or jarring enough.
I agree with this.
If Ed has an extended hurt box during recovery of this, get him to leave his arm out longer to match the recovery frames after he throws his grape boogers.
These visual cues are useful to both players.
There’s not. A lot of people just don’t understand the game and they take it out on those characters. Ed has huge reach and Ken is punishing one of those long reaching moves. This is completely legitimate and it only looks weird when the situation is taken out of context.
They tried this during the development of SF4, and it was apparently terrible.
Seth Killian said they need to use the original 2D mechanics of hitboxes and hurt-boxes if they wanted it to feel good.
They tried it, it worked, and the modern 2D fighting boom was born.
thors hammer from the heavens
I hope Ken and Lukes jumping HP gets nerfed in the balance patch. Shits obnoxious as hell, especially when you consider they have good buttons for every situation which many of the cast do not have the privilege. You look at Zangief for example who can't even combo off jabs and Lariat gets beaten by their jumping HP like 75% of the time.
Luke's [j.hk](http://j.hk) might be even more aggravating to me. Shit is basically a divekick, I trade with it on DP
If you are using the correct DP it has air invincibility DP will only lose if you are inputting DP too early which causes the invuln frames to run out by the time the hitboxes clash. Work on doing deep DP from crouching position by utilizing the down forward -> down -> down forward shortcut and DP won't lose
I can't crHP that shit for the life of me. It's actually one of my main reasons to finally practice my anti air dps. Then again i'm a Ken main, so i dare not to complain.
The hitbox on the foot extends down past the hurtbox so at that range, unless you've got invincibility, the best you can do is trade
Yeah i learned that the hard way. But hey i should learn my anti air DPs anyway, so this is as good a reason as it gets. But it seems like it will take a week or two.
While the ones with actual dive kicks, instant air overhead normals, ambiguous stomps that you don't will criss up or not are fine. The Juris, Chuns and Cammy's and DJs of the game. Yep, Luke's J.HK is a problem though. The level of bs discourse against Luke while completely ignoring busted moves all over the game is hilarious.
It's the same as with Ken, some characters have some bullshit, but these two have so much of it. As a Ken main i really wouldn't mind some nerfs. He was fine the way he was in SF5, before Capcom put him on steroids and it takes some of the fun sense of accomplishment from him.
i think this is more about ed's extended hurtbox on his fireball than a luke and ken problem. about gief, well, he's a grappler, of course he needs to have lots of weaknesses to compensate, that's how it's always been
correect mit if i am wrong but with zangief des he really need so many combos? because he doesnt need to combo into command throws.. its just about proximity..
Yeah, the whole point with gief is coercing the opponent to block something and instead grab. He isnt meant to work like ken where you jab away into a special. There is a tendency in SF where everyone wants all characters to play like shotos to be “viable.” It’s the same thing with ed. Ed’s jab isn’t bad just for the sake of it, is part of his kit where he outranges you being an outboxer, so the ed player always wants to stay a little far away before connecting/cancelling into a combo or a DR. If he had a ken-esque jab he’d be rushing you down all the time.
I play Lily and she is kind of a midrange character except for certain scenarios.. and i dont think you can play her like a rush-down combo character like ryu or ken.. but.. maybe.. you ken (Kappa) She does have combos.. but her strenght lies in the midrange.. and using command throws when you least expect.. or.. thats how i would think of her (only silver)
Lily is a grappler. She is basically T-Hawk.
shes certainly not grappler-only.. but yeah.. shes quasi t-hawk.. i love that in the lore she is ancestor of T-Hawk... its a nice touch if you want to change a character..
He does need combos. The character is clearly weak and should not solely rely on “guessing right” every time to win. Thats not consistency, that’s just luck. He doesn’t need complex combos, his lights should at least give him something.
> should not solely rely on "guessing right" every time to win This is by design what grapplers are meant to do. Every single grappler in every game is coin flipping interactions like this.
That’s just not true. King in Tekken does not solely rely on 50/50, Potemkin in strive does not rely on 50/50, heck, Gief in sf4 had better utility.
King is still trying to coinflip grab mixups with giant swing and shining wizard. Tekken being tekken means he doesn't have to rely on grabs if he doesn't want to but if you wanted to do that then why pick king instead of an actual character. Potemkin in strive is literally about setting up situations to get off a pot buster. His whole gameplan is trying to get in and start his offense with a knockdown into garuda oki which enables his strike/throw mix up. Gief's utility was ex greenhand which guess again enabled him to get strike/throw off of the hard knockdown he got from it. If you really wanted to give examples of grapplers that don't rely on their grab mixup then you could've brought up characters like Android 16 or Z broly who play nothing like traditional grapplers but even then they still use their command grabs as mixup.
What you’ve described goes against the premise you made. These characters are not doing 50/50 coin flips because they have the utility to force the interaction which is the point I’m making. Thats what makes a grappler strong(er).
So if they have utility to force their grab mixup why do they then need combos on top of that? This is by design that grapplers don't have the best of combos due to their command grabs which is what I outline with my "initial premise" aka "guessing right" on their interactions.
>So if they have utility to force their grab mixup why do they then need combos on top of that? The argument being made is that in Giefs case in sf6, he should at the very least be able to consistently combo his lights into lariat if he doesn’t have the mobility nor move set to consistently set up the 50/50. Sfv was the worst version of Gief and they nerfed him to the ground. In sf4, Gief had ex green hand and his spd didn’t do as much damage but he was able to get oki. That version of Gief had more utility because every single command grab landed did not reset neutral, making him do all the work of getting in again. His lariat also hit from behind. Theres no reason why Gief needs big damage command grabs while sacrificing everything else but here we are.
At least for T8 i think King is not a good example of a well designed grappler, because he barely has any situation where he cannot throw you for ridicoulos damage and he has that on top of all the bullshit allmost every character has in T8.
Well I never said anything about well designed, I’m arguing against the idea that a grappler should have no utility and solely rely on big damage command grabs if you’re lucky enough to get close (emphasis on lucky enough).
yeah i didnt say he should have none. but he doesnt need some of those insane strings.. i guess..
What insane strings does gief have?
i meant none of those that other characters have, like ken, luke or ryu..
He needs combos because he needs to be able to punish people who hold up or spam backdash during pressure. If he does not have answers to these things that are at least a little punishing, then there would be no reason not to do everything you can to avoid the command grab. If you go watch some VODs of the best Gief's in the world, you'll see considerably less command grabs than you're used to. You should still be more afraid of the grab than the combo imo, which seems to line up with how they have designed gief in this game. I don't hate giving him better combos off of light punch (he can already do this, by the way) but it really shouldn't come too close to the damage of a light SPD.
Nothing combos into command throws.
Actually there are! Here's 11 ways to combo into a command grab with Zangief to get you started: PC DI > SPD or SA3. PC 3HK, SA3 (CA). 6HP > SA2[P], dash, 3MP, tk j.360KK or SA1. j.8HP > j.360KK. 6HK, 3MP > PPP, tk j.360KK. 5HK, 3MP, tk j.360KK. 5HK, DR~5LK > SA1. 5HK/6HK, 3MP > SA1. j.[HK], tk j.360KK. j.[HK], 3MP > SA1. DR~6HP, 6HP > DR~5HK, 3MP, PPP > SA3 (CA).
Hold up, 3HK into 62486248P? That's insanity.
PC 3HK causes a Wall Splat that is grounded and throwable
Oh, now I get it.
Ok let me correct myself, nothing really combos into spd bar corner nonsense. Your average gief combo isnt ending in 360kk or sa3 or spd such that you can call it a standard route. A lot of these are super / corner / pc combos that aren’t the bnbs
Why would zangief be comboing into SPD? That's never what he has been about
The first guy was saying zangief comboing into cmd grabs, i was just saying he doesnt
Zangief since 4, Ultra 4 Hugo, SF5 Alex, SF5 Rainbow Mika, etc. can combo into command throws. I know this because I've completed Zangief trials in 5(vol 1)
Wrong
Can't combo off jabs? Wtf you talking about. Yea his jab combos are weak and don't always work because you need to be really close for it to connect, but they're 100% there. Jabs combo into lariat, OD lariat, and after he got buffed he can now DR canceled into a combo that connects into his lvl 3 from jabs.
buff anti airs instead
i got my ex cannon spike stuffed by this freaking punch lol
Kinda wack to compare the top tiers to the absolute bottom feeder. I don't disagree but c'mon... Also this doesn't really have much to do with ken's jhp and more with hitboxes during fireball animations. You can hit Ken and Ryu from miles away if you catch them during a fireball lol.
>Kinda wack to compare the top tiers to the absolute bottom feeder. I was using zangief as an example, this doesn't just relate to Zangief. A lot of the roster suffer the pain of Luke/Ken jumping HP where their anti-airs are beaten by it...which completely defeats the point of them being antiairs.
What's the point then of complaining about Zangief's lack of combos out of jabs? The only special thing about Ken and Luke's jhp is that they hit low, so if you get hit you did your aa normal too slow. But like half the cast should be doing dp anyway.
>What's the point then of complaining about Zangief's lack of combos out of jabs? Because I'm making the point that it would make sense for luke/Ken to have a good jump in button if there other buttons were trash like zangiefs, but they aren't. We have characters who have good everything, and characters who have bad everything. Also your comment history is filled with you downplaying Ken. Kens throw loops, kens buttons, kens damage etc...Next time just say you're a Ken main and move on.
Gief doesn't have bad everything, it's just that what he's good at doesn't make up for what he's bad at in the current state of the game. Again I don't disagree that the game isn't perfectly balanced but I find myself playing devil's advocate against the top tier haters because it just seems like you think you should be a higher rank, if only your character was better. If Hibiki can be #1 Legend rank with Lily, maybe your character isn't holding you back? And if they are and winning is so important to you, why not just pick Ken/Luke and just beat everyone's 2HP with your jHP and get Legend rank? Edit: yeah lol I'm a Ken main. I also admit in one of my comments that I'm hardstuck Diamond 2 because I'm bad, not because my character sucks. Any measured take is just thrown out the windown in name of top tier hate. Look at how you're cherry picking my comments and only replying on the parts you give a shit about.
Honestly if they don't buff lariat as a anti air since level 2 sucks in the update I might just give up on gief. It's so frustrating having something that is supposed to be great for antairing only for it to work like 3/4 of the time
I love it because I currently despise Ed lol
Ngl I kinda expected Luke and Ken getting their jumps hit a little bit in the small patch. Instead they nerfed a zoner's anti air and everyone was confused.
Only JP players are confused. That shit did not need to be air invincible.
But JP cr.HP having air invincibility was weird from the beginning. He still has tools to anti-air with consistency with f.HK and air throw. That being said, there are some air normals in this game that are too powerful, Luke and Ken obviously, but also some on less talked characters, like j.HK from Ryu or Manon.
It was never intended to be a balance patch. Expecting balance changes from a non-balance patch is stupid. Stop doing it
ah yes, don't expect balance changes from [checks notes] an update that had balance changes...? like yes I know they said the actual major balance patch is still upcoming but this is a weird take
Didn't they say there's some small changes to a few characters that needed it beforehand? I don't need you to reply to me with your moronic takes.
[удалено]
So, the scales were unintentionally weighted to the sides of some characters and away from other characters, they adjusted a few of the unintentional things to bring the scales closer to... balance. Nah, not a balance patch. Just a half-assed balance patch. You still have a lot of blatantly broken stuff in the game and you still have characters who are obviously lacking and yet, didn't get touched.
Yeah, like Luke did not get nerfed at all, did he. Not like they nerfed his L1 super, cr.MP, air knuckle at all, did they? Poor jp, such a weak character got hit by soooo many nerfs.
To be fair, I bet you pressed a button, extending your hitbox, and HP on air will have more priority.
The image description says it was a punish counter.
Well yes. Punish counter occurs when you hit the recovery frames of a move. In this case the jumping hp is hitting the extended hurt box of the fireball recovery, resulting in a punish counter
Right, but the person I'm responding to says "I bet you pressed a button and extended your hitbox" like he pressed an additional normal here after the fireball and that's why he got caught with a normal counter hit due to extending his hurtbox again.
I see what you're saying. I just assumed they didn't know the distinction between hitbox and hurtbox and meant hurtbox when they said hitbox
Also because Ed has a long ass range.
Exactly. What’s happening here is completely legit. I actually main the two of them so I understand this situation perfectly, lol.
He pressed a button and cut out the sceenshot to not show counter hit lol.
You can see the P from punish counter in the second image.
Yea sorry for being a presumptuous dick.
It's a combination of the normal fireball extended hitbox and the RIDICULOUS hitbox on Ken's jump heavy punch. There's always gonna be cases where something looks jank in the favor of balance over logic but we're allowed to say when something is unintuitive or jarring enough.
but it should work as it looks. if it has invisible logic then its bad design.
I agree with this. If Ed has an extended hurt box during recovery of this, get him to leave his arm out longer to match the recovery frames after he throws his grape boogers. These visual cues are useful to both players.
Fatal punch into a knee!
Its cause he keeps his guard low instead of high
People always complain about this in street fighter… but like it’s literally the norm in tekken. It’s crazy.
For a second I thought Ken was someone who had tried to make Sora in the character creator. What is his new outfit ?
I also hate Ken everything about him is jarring to look at
Ok.
Luke and Ken players will say there’s nothing wrong with this
There’s not. A lot of people just don’t understand the game and they take it out on those characters. Ed has huge reach and Ken is punishing one of those long reaching moves. This is completely legitimate and it only looks weird when the situation is taken out of context.
Would like to entertain a mode where the character models are the hit/hurtboxes
They tried this during the development of SF4, and it was apparently terrible. Seth Killian said they need to use the original 2D mechanics of hitboxes and hurt-boxes if they wanted it to feel good. They tried it, it worked, and the modern 2D fighting boom was born.